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Anna Pykhtina "Home's Strong Calling"
39 Plays2 years ago
Anna Pykhtina is a communication and PR expert from Kyiv, Ukraine, focusing on Ukrainian NGO work and civic education, currently living in Warsaw, Poland. After the outbreak of the war, Anna and her boyfriend fled Ukraine to Poland, where they are currently living with friends. Anna was the president of AEGEE-Kyiv, Europe's biggest interdisciplinary student organization. She has been travelling extensively in Europe and is, I think it is safe to say, a strong proponent of the European idea. Additionally, she worked for the Free Russia Foundation, which supports civic society and democratic development in Russia, for almost two years and has, therefore, many Russian acquaintances and friends. Anna's work and experience are exceptional and I couldn't be happier to have her on board the Yellow Van today to hear her opinions and perspectives on a variety of topics.
Welcome to the Yellow Van, Anna!
SHOW NOTES
Anna's Reading List
INITIATIVES TO SUPPORT
NGO "Girls"
USCD
Timothy D. Snyder, American historian
Eurotrip, USA 2004, Jeff Schaffer
Free Russia Foundation
Tango of Death, Yuriy Vynnychuk
Tiger Trappers, Ivan Bahriyanyi
Maria Berlinska, Ukrainian film producer
MUSIC
Love In The Face Of Fear, Jim Kroft
Yellow Van Stories is a Mind The Bump Production
Yellow Van Stories is a Mind the Bump Production.
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Transcript
Return to Rebuild
00:00:04
Speaker
Now, a lot of people are coming back home, even if they don't have a home. And some people are coming back to Kharkiv, people are coming back to even Bucher and they're like cleaning it up after Russians. And it makes me like very...
00:00:21
Speaker
It's very touching and it's a very Ukrainian way to not stay in Europe because I ever wanted to come and now I have this chance but to come back because I have to clean it up, I have to build the country I want my kids to live in.
Introduction to Yellow Van Stories
00:00:45
Speaker
Hello and welcome to a new episode of the Yellow Van Stories. We're so happy and grateful that you have made the time once again to come on board with us today. I'm your host and driver Bastian. We've been waiting just for you and kept your seat by the windowside as usual.
Exploring Ukrainian Identity
00:01:04
Speaker
After Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the topic of the second season became very clear to us. We decided to invite Ukrainians into the van to share their stories with us and to learn more about Ukraine's cultural identity. Because too often it has been appropriated by chauvinistic Russian narrative. The same narrative that now serves as a pretense to the war.
00:01:29
Speaker
supporting Ukraine in our opinion therefore has a very strong cultural dimension as well. Fonzi is in first gear already and we are good to go so buckle up and sit back because today we're going to meet Anna in Warsaw.
00:01:52
Speaker
Hello and welcome to a new episode of the Yellow Vans stories.
Anna's Journey and NGO Work
00:01:55
Speaker
Here with us today is Anna Bihdina, who is a communication expert from Kyiv, Ukraine, focusing on Ukrainian NGO work and civic education, who is currently living in Warsaw in Poland. And I'm very, very happy to have you with us today. Anna, thanks for joining us. Thanks for inviting, happy to see you as well. Nice. So now that we've kicked this off, I'm just going to... Where are you right now? I'm in Warsaw. Yeah.
00:02:20
Speaker
That's it. All right. How long have you been there for? I came here on 26th of February. So it's the 86th day of the invasion. So less than 84 days. Yeah, that's the number. Almost three months. Yeah, that's true. I could use shorter number.
00:02:45
Speaker
Don't worry. Actually, to be honest with you, I think it puts it in a very good perspective to have the days and not the months because it's a bigger number and it will definitely drive home the point of what is happening in Ukraine a lot better than the months or years because it seems a lot smaller than the days. So I'm totally with you in that
Fleeing Ukraine
00:03:07
Speaker
sense.
00:03:07
Speaker
I will just read a very short CV of you so that people kind of know who I'm talking to, who they're listening to. And then I have a lot of questions related to communications and everything. Let's see what we cover of that.
00:03:25
Speaker
And yeah, and I'm looking forward to it very much. So this is what I wrote. And if you have anything to add to that, or you say there was a gross misinformation in there, you can just let me know afterwards and we will rectify everything. Let's see what you find out. Let's see. Let's see. Let's see what I messed up this time. Okay. So Anna is a communication and PI expert from Kiev, Ukraine, focusing on Ukrainian NGO work in civic education, currently living in Warsaw in Poland.
00:03:53
Speaker
After the outbreak of the war, Anna and her boyfriend fled Ukraine to Poland, where they're currently living with friends. Anna was the president of Aije Kiev, which is Europe's biggest interdisciplinary student organization. She's been traveling extensively in Europe and is, I think it is safe to say, a strong proponent of the European idea.
00:04:14
Speaker
Additionally, she worked for Free Russia Foundation, which supports civic society and democratic development in Russia for almost two years and has therefore many Russian acquaintances as well. Anna's work and experience are exceptional, and I couldn't be happier to have on board the Yellow Verne today to hear opinions and perspectives on a variety of topics. Welcome to the Yellow Verne, Anna. Thank you. So I would like to ask you to start off with, would you just in, you know,
00:04:43
Speaker
rough strokes pretty much. Maybe share your story with us what happened when you left on the 26th of February. And also, I mean, the motivation is obvious, but there's still a process in place like where you go, wow, I'm really leaving home now and I'm heading into another country and I'm leaving this behind.
Evacuation Efforts
00:05:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:01
Speaker
Well, I think it's one of the days that I will remember forever. First, we were woken up, not by sirens, but by our friend who was actually crushing the door because I think we couldn't hear that. I never heard sirens in my life, so I was not prepared for that. And then the first two days, so it happened to be that
00:05:25
Speaker
my boyfriend who also worked at El Gio, his team was already in Lviv and I was in Lviv because I was there for a work trip and I decided to stay there for longer. So we are well aware in Lviv at the moment and we decided that first we will try to evacuate as many people as we could from like the hot places and they were all over Ukraine basically which was like very scary.
00:05:51
Speaker
So, there was a lot of work in the first 24 hours and I didn't do anything on communications in the first, I guess,
00:06:04
Speaker
48 hours, because it was more like about shock on that is really happening, making sure that all of my relatives alive, all of my friends are okay, and moving somewhere from safer place from their places to safer places. And then I think it was the second date was the 25th. Yeah, the Friday. And my boyfriend just told me like, I think we need to like leave the country. And I was like,
00:06:33
Speaker
What? No, I'm not leaving Ukraine. That's my home. And I was very like, no, I'll be fighting. But honestly, now I understand that I was just not very good in understanding what's really happening. I think my mind was like,
00:06:51
Speaker
We're in Lviv first of all, so it's like more far than the east of Ukraine, center of Ukraine, but also it just was hard to believe that it's actually happening. Like I was reading the news, I was seeing the information, but my mind was like, nah.
00:07:07
Speaker
You know, something like that. And then everything started to go very fast because, you know, when someone is telling you that we have to leave, you're like either saying, no, I'm staying or you're like, OK, and you're just following, let's say what others are saying. So I was with the group of people from different countries, actually from Ukraine, from Belarus, some from Russia, from Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan. And it's like they all been living in Ukraine for a while, but they understood that
00:07:37
Speaker
let's say, it's really bad. It could be worse for them, let's say, yes, they don't know like what kind of what will happen. And yeah, so they decided to move on. And for some of them, it was actually the second time they are fleeing from the countries like Belarus, right, they're losing their home for the second time, it was very, yes, you know, bad for them as well. And then we got into the train station with no tickets with lots of people just standing and we knew there is a
00:08:06
Speaker
Train, direct train to Poland and we knew it's coming from Kiev to Lviv and then stopping at the final destination will be Przemysl which is like after the Polish border and we just went and took this train and we were standing I think for six or seven hours because there were of course no free places in the train. The train was standing? Yeah, yeah.
00:08:29
Speaker
I mean, there were some people who bought the tickets in advance, and I guess it was even before the invasion, but no one was stopping us. So, you know, everyone understood that, you know, it's not the time to check the tickets. The only thing the border control was checking is the age of men, because it was not allowed to live if you are from 18 to 60.
00:08:52
Speaker
And that was all. But then we came to Poland, so it took us just, I think, eight hours from Lviv to Polish border. It's not far, right? It's about, I think... Usually, it would take two hours actually.
00:09:07
Speaker
Now, with lots of people, it was just the start of the people moving to other countries and fleeing from Ukraine. Using the train was the smart idea, actually, because they were starting to queue with the cars, people were going by food, so it was terrible.
00:09:25
Speaker
And we happened to be in Warsaw next morning and it was totally super weird. I remember the next morning we woke up in a hotel where we were staying for the next couple of days and there was TV and the news were showing what's happening in Ukraine and they put the sound on and the sound was the sirens. And I was like, are you serious? Like in another country hearing the sirens? That was really traumatic, I would say.
00:09:55
Speaker
Yeah, so that's how it's happened. Can you, you know, without trying to be sensationalist at all, but just at that moment, like when, because at the beginning, I understand this. And when you said that, you know, I didn't understand the situation, I wasn't, I mean, I hardly ever understand the situations. I didn't much later in everyday situations. Anyway, that's a whole other story, though.
00:10:16
Speaker
but at the moment where you where you realize okay but now i'm leaving i'm not fighting i'm leaving like what what gave the the impetus that do you remember what is something specific or is it just where you were like okay actually it's true yeah that doesn't make any sense we should go i think i realized that.
00:10:34
Speaker
once I was already in Warsaw because I remember I was calling my grandma who is in Kiev and I knew I had to call her and say I'm leaving the country and I was saying her like I'm sorry I'm leaving because I felt like I'm betraying Ukraine, I'm betraying her, I'm betraying my family and I don't know betraying my president you know all this survival guilt that's now a lot of people have.
00:11:00
Speaker
Um, that was the feeling, but also I was really like, I couldn't, I was not sleeping for two days. I think I was really tired and it was all shocking. We were, you know, the atmosphere was like, everyone is checking the news and the whole wagon, I think it was more than a hundred people and one.
00:11:18
Speaker
if something happens, you know, someone says that and the others are like looking at each other and like, Oh my God. And yeah, the atmosphere was, we were like nervously smiling, but it was just because we were, you know, it was just a reaction on the tragic events that were happening. And yeah, I think that's what
00:11:41
Speaker
So, I mean, I was like, so I'm leaving. And, you know, my hands were doing something, my body was taking me somewhere, but my mind was like, Okay, I'm leaving, but I'll come back soon. You know, once once that like, I can't do that, I'll come back. So it's just for a few days. I really believe that. Yeah, but to be honest, I didn't believe that the invasion will happen even two weeks before the invasion. So
00:12:10
Speaker
I'm not a very good strategy person. I still remember watching the news a few days before the invasion actually happened, before the 24th, and there were some interviews that were being done on the street with people in Kiev.
00:12:32
Speaker
all over Ukraine and everyone was like, yeah, nothing's going to happen. He's just playing the strong man and trying to strong arm, you know, Europe and the NATO into his way of seeing the world. And then it happened. So I think it came to the surprise of everybody, obviously. There were some smart people who actually, you know, prepared for that. And I'm really happy that
00:12:52
Speaker
They were more, let's say, prepared than the others, because after everything started, we saw how the army is working, how actually the country is prepared, and that was like, wow, cool. That was absolutely amazing. With people, and I think every case is special, but in general, we all were more like, oh my God.
00:13:21
Speaker
Yes, I can't believe this is happening. Yeah, exactly. How is it now, three months later, you spoke about survival guilt, which is something that's very common. Have you found a way to cope with that? Because what helps, I think for a lot of people, for me, is if you start doing something. Yeah, that's the best way. So have you found a coping mechanism, a coping mechanism or something to put in its place to replace it with?
00:13:44
Speaker
Well, now, of course, I'm way better, like way better than the first months, I would say, because on the first several weeks, I'm actually on the first days I joined the team of volunteers who were doing this evacuation from Ukraine. And it was more like a call center. So you call a person who applied for evacuation and you tell them that there is a bus and then you provide all the information.
00:14:10
Speaker
And the first days I was like... This was in Warsaw, right? Yeah, it was like, you know, the team of people who were organizing it in Warsaw and in Lviv and the buses were coming from different parts of Ukraine through Lviv. And then so some people could stay in Lviv, but the others, for example, could go to the Polish border and then next steps. It's what they decide. And I clearly remember that I think it was 28 or something that
00:14:40
Speaker
I would go to the office with this group of people. I came to Warsaw because, you know, there was this unity between us, the special one. We all were in the same shoes, of course. And it was not necessary to explain if you were like started to cry or you're sad. It was like, it's OK.
00:14:58
Speaker
And I remember I was like, Oh God, I mean, I'm doing my, let's say daily work, but it's not enough. And I need to feel not even to feel to see that's what I do. It's helpful. So I decided to work with them on this evocation story.
00:15:16
Speaker
And AIDS actually was such a relief because I could hear people telling like, can I take two dogs? And I'm like, of course, yes, bring them on the bus. And people were taking a lot of animals with them. We actually counted that there was more than 3,000 people that we helped to create. And there was more than, I think, 50 different animals, even as male,
00:15:44
Speaker
Wow, no way, a snail. And the parrot. So I was like, this story has made me like, you know, really holding on, let's say. Yeah, so that was my first coping mechanism. Then I decided to feel whatever I feel. So I couldn't cry actually, until butcher. Yeah, stories, let's say it was the first time I actually cried.
00:16:10
Speaker
And then I think it was the second phase of my, well it's not acceptance, but realization of this war is like a total tragedy. And I was still mad, I'm still mad. And I think the center also helps to do some work.
00:16:30
Speaker
Yes. I agree. I'm still mad as well, just so you know. I'm very mad about this. Yeah, of course. Now, I think the first two weeks were difficult for everyone because whatever they would be doing or whatever they will be, geographically, they need to adapt the new plan of their projects, the plan, because everything that we did, for example, it was
00:16:58
Speaker
It was impossible to do it the same way. So now it's more or less like we understand what we do. We understand that there are several scenarios. We know that we have several plans, A, B, C, in case of this or that happening.
Adapting to New Realities
00:17:16
Speaker
Of course, in the beginning, nobody knew because the first, I think, two weeks were really crucial for the whole scale of the war.
00:17:24
Speaker
And now it's more or less like I have the routine, so I have the normal working hours and part of my colleagues staying in Ukraine and they work in the shelters, they work with the sirens and we get used to it. I mean, not in a bad way. We get used to it because we can work even with that and a lot of Ukrainians are like, well, that's the new reality, so let's go back to work.
00:17:52
Speaker
Wow. Wow. I have no words. I admire that. That's amazing. But I do believe this is also the human resilience in general to find a way of dealing with a new reality. I think we also, over the last two years, we've gotten better and better with it because it's been going on for a while now.
00:18:19
Speaker
So I admire that very much. Actually, we have a joke now that COVID helped a lot because now we also work online, everyone in different places and it's not difficult to organize anything like, okay, so yeah.
00:18:38
Speaker
Wow. So that would bring me also to actually your work because first of all, I mean, you do work in the NGO world, non-governmental organizations for everybody who's not familiar with that term.
Importance of NGOs
00:18:52
Speaker
And I think the first question I have for you in that sense is,
00:18:57
Speaker
How important is the role of NGOs, international NGOs, also in Ukraine at the moment to alleviate the suffering of the public there? Because we always hear about, you know, AIDS from countries and so on and so on, but how important is the work that's really down on the ground by the NGOs there? I think that's something that's actually
00:19:16
Speaker
makes a very different from, let's say, even Russians, because I was just watching the interview of one. She's a volunteer, she was a warrior from 2014, her name Maria Dirlinska. And she was given the interview and she said, like,
00:19:32
Speaker
If it was all organized by the government and imagine it would be like one center or one big shelter or one unit of all the help that is distributed to the whole country, the Russians would just, you know, put a bomb and everything would be destroyed.
00:19:47
Speaker
But we have so many grassroots initiatives. People are so united. They are organizing volunteering offices, even if they don't have experiences, even if they don't have money. I mean, I open the Instagram and I see a lot of influencers who are talking about their life, drinking coffee, and I'm writing a book somewhere in Paris.
00:20:10
Speaker
And now their feed is mostly about like, okay, there is a girl from her son. So if anyone, you know, knows how to help her, here is her like Insta. And also, it's a huge chain of people who it's not a big world. You can, you know, there is the same like you need how many five handshakes to meet someone. So in Ukraine, we say it's two, it's two or three.
00:20:34
Speaker
So yeah, I think it's helped a lot because first of all, people from 2014 already started to do that. And the non-governmental and civic activist world is quite powerful in Ukraine. There are a lot of things that actually were not done in a bad way in Ukraine because of them saying it's wrong. It was not always perfect, but still it's
00:21:02
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's a very book. Can I ask you that? Is there a reason maybe? And correct me if I'm wrong, because this is obviously also a question that can only be asked from a certain kind of distance. And I'm brushing up on my Ukraine knowledge as we speak, like I read and stuff. But is the reason for this big civic initiative and the civic movements that exist, is that also a reason
00:21:31
Speaker
Does it also exist because the state structures in Ukraine are still in development, some of it at least? I mean, don't in development sounds terrible, but I mean, in Ukraine there has been a problem with corruption. I think we can openly talk about that. So is that maybe a reason that that was very often sidelined and people actually
00:21:56
Speaker
went to people for help and not to the state in that sense? Yeah, actually, you know, if you remember, like what's happened in 2013, when there was Yevromaydan, right? And our president decided that he has not seen us with Europe, but we are more closer to Russia. And you saw that people went on the streets and that's Yevromaydan started. So after that, a lot of people actually left the business and they decided to go to work for the government.
00:22:25
Speaker
because they understood that government doesn't... It's not very fancy to work for government. It was not very fancy. They pay not much. It's a lot bureaucracy. I guess it's like that in many countries. But at that time, a lot of people decided to start doing that. And I think it was the new...
00:22:47
Speaker
face for Ukraine at that moment. And there was a lot of, you know, how we call that inspiration about like, let's change. And of course, it's a long process. And it's, you know, like, we're quite a young country, it's like 30 years. So it's hard to say that, of course, we are developing and
00:23:12
Speaker
We also like making mistakes as choosing sometimes probably like not the best people in power. But yeah, I think that's also the reason why the civic sector is so strong and so united.
00:23:28
Speaker
Yeah, right. Just for the record, I want to say corruption is everywhere, right? I didn't. Also, this is not a Ukrainian problem. I think in some states a little more than in others, it definitely structures, but corruption is a problem everywhere. There's corruption in Germany, there's corruption in the United States, there's corruption everywhere. No matter how big a country or how great a country thinks it is, it's found everywhere. It's a political problem. And there is a lot of corruption in Russia. Do you see how it goes now?
00:23:54
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. How has the war so far influenced your own work as well in the NGO world? You don't have to give any specific projects. I know that's a little difficult because that has to do with vulnerable people and vulnerable projects in itself.
00:24:15
Speaker
But how has it changed your projects, maybe also the funding? Do you work differently now? Do you have other projects to focus on? Or is it continuing a little bit like it was before? I doubt that, but maybe, I don't know. So let's say my... How does it say? Let me think.
00:24:37
Speaker
The way we work didn't change. The way we do things didn't change. We actually do the same thing, let's say. We have several directions in our project. Our project is called Unity, and it's the biggest USDD project that focuses on use of Ukrainian use. Our target audience is 1035 years old, which is a huge target audience. Before the full-scale invasion, we were focusing on
00:25:06
Speaker
opening the youth centers in regions
00:25:14
Speaker
We had the mid-day literacy project, which actually helped a lot. We also were working on giving youth a lot of knowledge, power, everything. So after our project is over, youth is ready to live their own life and make Ukraine better. In short and very simple words, that's the aim of the project.
00:25:38
Speaker
In a nutshell, yes. But of course, now, let's say our plans changed. For example, like last year, there was a future of work research that we did together with our partner. And it was about the future of work for use in 10 years. And now, of course, it's totally different because there was not so many workplaces, like some people lost their jobs. So, of course, that's absolutely different. And now we have to
00:26:07
Speaker
see what we can offer to you. So I think maybe some new courses on how to gain new skills, how to go and work on international markets if you cannot work in Ukraine. So yeah, I think we looked at all of our directions and we adapt them to the new reality.
00:26:28
Speaker
Yeah, me personally, I started to do a lot of volunteering and that helps a lot. And I'm actually helping with some projects like helping them to create texts.
00:26:47
Speaker
uniting them with the media or whatever they ask for. And now I see that actually both the media and activists are more open to each other because they understand that now it's more crucial to listen to each other and to make projects together and so on. Because in the previous time, both could say, we're not interested. Now everyone's like, let's do it.
00:27:17
Speaker
It's a great idea.
00:27:20
Speaker
That's obviously a super interesting topic in itself, information. I mean, that's what text is all about and connecting texts and putting information out there, which is absolutely crucial. And we see that there's an information war going on at the same time and on the same scale. Before we go there, though, because I want to visit that with you, I just had this thought in my mind, and maybe you can help me answer that a little bit, because obviously a war hampers the development of a country incredibly, right? I mean,
00:27:49
Speaker
the destruction. I mean, you know, everybody gets the picture. I don't have to go more into detail and paint it with more vibrant colors. But at the same time, and this is what I'm observing.
00:28:02
Speaker
At the same time, for the first time, Ukraine has been given a timely horizon for EU membership. There's talk about NATO membership, maybe, maybe not. That's obviously something that's very speculative. But in that sense, there's also a lot of movement that has been denied to Ukraine before the time.
00:28:23
Speaker
So even though the development in some places obviously is slower because of that, like some of your projects that had a different focus before then, but in other areas when it comes to international recognition and international collaboration, I think there's something happening on the other side of the scale as well. How do you see that? Do you also see some of that as positive or do you say like, you know, I don't really care so much if our country has to first
00:28:51
Speaker
be able to build from and within itself and then we can talk about all the other things. Of course it comes all together without the help from the outside it will be impossible for us to continue fighting and now one we have the landlies signed and we have the
00:29:07
Speaker
weapons that are sent to Ukraine to help us fight the aggressor now i mean that's how it's working and i'm glad that i'm actually very happy that the world understands that we are actually stopping russia not to go further to europe because
00:29:28
Speaker
Some people still, I mean, I was just reading in the morning another call to Ukraine for peace, not the kind of peace when we win, but the kind of peace when we say... But lay down the weapons. Yeah, that one.
International Support Needed
00:29:42
Speaker
And it's very interesting to hear that from a person from the peaceful place, but okay.
00:29:49
Speaker
Yeah. Others are just, for them, it's clear that Ukraine is actually stopping the aggressor with their own lives. And if you don't want this war to go further, if you don't want the third war, you need to help Ukraine because we are already fighting. What we're asking, and it's like the message for the foreign audience, is that please continue to support us. And aren't Ukraine now? It's one of the messages that goes viral. And I think
00:30:18
Speaker
There are several countries that are still in a political way. I'm not talking about people, of course, but some politicians that are still trying to make some kind of, let's say, let's help Putin to understand what's happening. Well, he clearly understands. It's not because he is in some kind of illusion. No, he knows what he's doing. I think now we see that
00:30:47
Speaker
Yeah, I will stop here. I don't know what sales. So that brings me to the information as well, like we said earlier. I mean, with your communication is all about information as well.
00:31:01
Speaker
And we see the most documented war in history right now. Nothing's ever been documented like this. There are videos, texts, so many platforms, media, every single day, you see it everywhere. Is there such a thing as too much information or is there just still not enough information?
00:31:26
Speaker
I think it's not enough from my side, because I think how many seconds now the human brain can hold on one picture? I think there was two or four. I mean, the information is everywhere at the moment.
00:31:46
Speaker
It's how we live now and it will be like changing not in a way it will be less, right? So now in Ukraine, we have to fight for like all the attention. And unfortunately, yes, sometimes it feels like we're losing it, especially when we're not.
00:32:01
Speaker
we're not reaching like countries, I don't know, somewhere in South America. But I mean, I'm very sorry for those who are tired from the war, but yeah, but Ukraine is suffering from the aggressor and people are dying every day. So until it's over, you will see a lot of news about that. And I hope that all this evidence is all these photos and the videos will still be there. And this will be,
00:32:31
Speaker
I wanted to say a lesson for a future generation, but I guess people do not actually learn from that. I don't know. But anyways... Seems history repeats itself a lot of the times. Yeah. So, I mean, maybe it could be used as a, you know, some kind of stories and cases for those who will learn, want to learn the history of Ukraine and how it was happening and how great Ukraine was, how West started to help and so on.
00:33:01
Speaker
Yeah, so I think... Well, how the West wanted to help. That sounds a little too glorious for the West, if you ask me, but fine. Let's leave it at that for the moment. But you also said just now, there's also very much division in the West and also in Europe.
00:33:18
Speaker
You just said about the German not the German but about the people that say for Ukraine to lay down their arms You know and just say like, you know why the suffering just put in half his way. There's a very big discussion like that Yeah, I saw that I saw this from the first day and I was I was very shocked for me and angry especially with Germany and of course, yeah, but I
00:33:43
Speaker
I was like, how is it possible in a country that actually survived the Nazi regime with all those history lessons and now supporting Putin in all these ways? But also, it's a big
00:34:01
Speaker
I'm not saying, let's say, I understand why it's happening, but I think that the amount of money and amount of the ways Russia was consistently going to German institution, to Germans through cultures, through movies, through, I don't know, yes. So that's the result. Yes.
00:34:26
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I absolutely agree with you. I think Germany has played a major role in strengthening Putin's position, the politics of change through trade, like it was always called here in Germany was a terrible idea. And it's obviously now we see how terrible it was and how it backfires.
00:34:48
Speaker
So there is a lot of stuff happening though, there is in Germany. Just because this is an interesting parallel you painted with the history of Germany, I do believe a lot of lessons have been taken in Germany from their past, but which makes this so difficult nonetheless. By the way, just to be clear, I do not think that Ukraine should lay down the weapons. I do believe this is a crucial
00:35:12
Speaker
a crucial war that Ukraine is fighting on our behalf basically because Putin is obviously all about power and if he isn't stopped in some way at some particular point which is now Ukraine it will continue and he's a bully and he will play with our fears, bring up nuclear arms and weapons and say if you don't
00:35:32
Speaker
you know, stand by my heel when I say so, then I will actually open up the nuclear arsenal. This is something he's doing. It's frightening. It is very frightful because there is no certainty in anything. So obviously there are people that are afraid and I said, let's not instigate any more. Let's not, you know, provoke him in any way.
00:35:51
Speaker
I do believe because of Germany's history, there is a lot of difficulty in acknowledging that you are sending arms into a country that is at war, which is nonetheless very hypocritical because Germany is sending weapons into other parts of the world anyway, where the difference is not always so clear who is an aggressor and who is a defender.
00:36:15
Speaker
Anyway, but this is just the didactics of that is quite difficult in Germany, and to some way I understand it, but in other ways I also struggle very much with it. Yeah, it's not only in Germany actually, I saw also there was the, I think an open letter from for...
00:36:35
Speaker
from foreign feminists. I don't know the countries they were coming through. But anyway, there was no Ukrainian voice from Ukrainian feminists. And they were also saying that by giving Ukraine's army, we're supporting the war. And by supporting the war, it's something also like we're supporting the aggression. The war is usually started by men. So Ukraine has to surrender, something like that.
00:36:59
Speaker
But as you said, yes, Russia is a bully, Russia is the abuser, right? So what does the abuser do in this kind of ways? Unless you're like saying no, and you're leaving the abuser, he is like continuing doing that. And he needs help. Unless he's ready to get this help, it's impossible to like,
00:37:21
Speaker
to live with this person. And that's a classic way. Yeah. And I'm very sorry to see that some Western representatives are seeing it in another way. Yeah, maybe. Yes. Maybe it's because of the privilege there in the safe places. I'm not wishing them to live what we lived through. You know, no, but maybe that feels maybe it's the call for us to be to talk more about that.
00:37:50
Speaker
Maybe. Yes. But I do believe there is some benefit in that though. Even though, like I said, I am with the support of what the current German government is, not to all extent, but some of it is happening too slow, but then it's politics, sometimes it is very slow and so on and so on, but there's a new position that is quite new in German politics in this.
00:38:20
Speaker
I believe it is nonetheless beneficial in the sense that everything that has to do with war also needs to have a voice of peace. Even though I don't support the way that this
00:38:31
Speaker
opinion is being formulated and being announced at the moment, as in Ukraine should lay down the weapons so that there can be peace again. I don't agree with that, but I think it's essential to have these voices, whether you agree with them or not, to have a dialogue about it in the long run because
00:38:50
Speaker
very often also a war can become something of its own making. And look, I have revised a lot of my positions over the last months. Who knows if I am in agreement with me in five or six weeks about this, but I do believe that those voices need to exist. Let me put it this way. I don't agree with them, but I do respect them for existing.
00:39:15
Speaker
I don't know, but on the other hand, I didn't hear a lot of things like, hey, Russian army, stop because stop and surrender. It's always like, hey, Ukrainian army, stop fighting.
00:39:31
Speaker
I will say that loud and clear here now then. Russian troops get the fuck out of Ukraine and leave that beautiful country alone. You have nothing to do there and you are just causing suffering and call it an end. So I think those voices also exist. Mine doesn't matter in that particular setup at all, obviously.
00:39:52
Speaker
I think those voices also exist, but they are not enough. I agree with you. I agree with you. Absolutely. And of course, it's like from our side, we cannot tell and we don't want to tell that because actually, you know, there's a big informational campaign, like, for example, in some
00:40:11
Speaker
territories that were, I think some of them now are occupied, but there were actually like info posters like, so Russian soldier, go and surrender, and you will actually like even get the money, you will like, stay safe, we will not kill you. So there were posters like that. And we were actually like, offering that. Yeah, but we see it's not how it goes.
00:40:36
Speaker
Well, it will maybe reach one or the other. You never know. No good effort is for nothing, I believe.
00:40:46
Speaker
I would like to stay with this whole topic a little bit, also without language, because I don't know if you're familiar with, most probably you follow the discussions in Germany as well as far as I understand a little bit, right? So then you know Andre Melnik as well, the ambassador to Germany, the Ukrainian ambassador to Germany. He is someone that, how can I put it, who is very...
00:41:14
Speaker
He splits the country in two, in a way, because he's very insistent, also very, I think you could even say,
00:41:28
Speaker
you know, heads on with his conversation and his discussion. And in some ways, in Germany, for instance, people are becoming upset about it, right? They're like, how dare he speak like this to us who support him, and so on and so on. On the other hand,
00:41:45
Speaker
He is a man who has to make sure that people keep on supporting his country, no matter what, and the fatigue that we discussed earlier, like in information and everything, doesn't set in, but that people are basically shaken awake again and again and again to see what's going on, right? And he's doing that sometimes with a language that's also not very diplomatic, you know, calling people out, even calling them names from time to time. I personally understand his position.
00:42:12
Speaker
Right? The only question that I have, and I would like to have your opinion, do you think it is always helpful to be so heads on? Or do you think there is something like a diplomatic language that will help you, you know, maybe get people's backing easier than being so confrontative all the time?
00:42:34
Speaker
Well, I'm not an expert on diplomatic language. Neither am I. I would say diplomatic way didn't work, from my opinion. And that's why you see what you see now. So he's trying to do whatever he can, as well as the other ambassadors.
00:42:53
Speaker
And that's maybe the answer. His reaction could be just the answer to what he's seeing. And he sees that there is a fatigue. So maybe he's trying the other ways to wake people up and actually shake them. And I think he does a good job, right? I mean, everyone discussing that. Well, yes, it's kind of working.
00:43:14
Speaker
I agree with you. And I think also if you are, he's in the news a lot because of that. I think obviously he's a smart man. He knows that as well. He will make a headline if he is very confrontative and maybe calls someone a beleitik delieberwurst, which means an insulted
00:43:30
Speaker
liver spread in German, which is a very weird term if you translate it into any other language, but it is an existing term. That's not very, you know, confrontative, but it's, it's, it's, you know, it's kind of an insult, not a bad one. And on the other hand, I also observed that in Germany, and for instance, people are, you know, distancing themselves and kind of telling him how to behave during a war because they know so much better, which is a terrible thing.
00:43:59
Speaker
to see as well, like our chancellor, I'm not going to Ukraine now because the president wasn't welcome to some degree, and now he's just kind of sticking his head in the sand and going, look, I'm not going until there has been an apology, which is absolutely pathetic in my idea, in my opinion, which is another story, though. Well, I- Do you want to say something? Yeah, I just remember, I remember that, yeah, there was a story about Zelensky not inviting him, but then he invited him, I guess.
00:44:28
Speaker
But it was some time ago and I'm not sure if it's still that important.
00:44:33
Speaker
No, it's not. It's past. It's just important in the sense that the German chancellor hasn't made a visit to Kyiv now because of that incident. So that's why it connects the present day with that. He said he shouldn't come, Zelensky, at the time because of Steinmeier's Germany president's involvement in the whole, you know, Russia diplomacy for years and years as chief of the chancellery and foreign minister in Germany. He was a main architect of
00:45:01
Speaker
of Russian policy at the time, so to a large degree responsible for what's going on now in Ukraine as well. So then let me look with you at Selensky's communication in the whole war. He is very present
00:45:21
Speaker
Basically, he's giving a roundup many times a day, I don't know how many times, but I think various times a day, and showing his face, giving an update of what's going on. What do you think about that?
Zelensky's Leadership
00:45:37
Speaker
Yeah, I would just say I think he's like the best president Ukraine could have for this historical moment.
00:45:47
Speaker
because the way he's representing us, the stuff that he's saying, I don't know his style, everything like what he does is now he's a symbol. And the symbol is super strong. Like I'm talking both like Ukrainian, just a Ukrainian girl, but also as a communication specialist, because what I see is like, wow, I'm like, I can applaud to the team. I know it's a team. It's just not just him, of course, that would be impossible. But
00:46:16
Speaker
those who does that, those who help to do all this work. I mean, yeah, you can see he's doing the interviews, he's actually like does the every evening chicken on telegram. And this is being translated both in English and Ukrainian. He's answering very fast to different requests with the media with like international stuff. And he both does that, you know, with just general like, just people and like,
00:46:43
Speaker
like, I don't know, Robert De Niro, who actually, I think, was on the call with him last week and I was like, what? Last week, I remember Sean Penn being there, but yeah, Sean Penn is great.
00:46:57
Speaker
But something was there before, so he was he's like more interested in what's happening because he was there because he was going to the east of Ukraine and he wanted to see how what's happening now. So I think he was more, yeah, let's say into the Ukrainian history and the news, but the others. Oh, wow. OK, cool. Yeah, so that's the short. I'm very proud.
00:47:23
Speaker
He's very present. And I think that's, that's, I mean, in a time like this, to have leadership is so important. And, you know, despite my also sometimes, you know, seeing the shortcomings of even though being an art in support of democracy, but also seeing the shortcomings of it and how that leadership sometimes plays out. In this particular case, you see how necessary it is and how good it is to have someone in place who also knows how to
00:47:53
Speaker
Thanks.
00:47:54
Speaker
you know, serve the media, let me put it this way, because of his background. He's a pro when it comes to that and not just as a president. And what was really amazing for me to see as an outsider is how he could just flip that switch. Like when it started, like the invasion on the 24th of February, I think right after that, he took off the suit. You never seen him wear a tie or anything. Like he's in camouflage clothes all day long.
00:48:23
Speaker
He is reachable. He is giving people the impression that I am basically one of you, just that I'm kind of running the show now because of how it happened. And he's very touchable. He's very, he just really flipped that switch. Like from one day to the next, without a transition phase, he know what was at stake. He knew who he had to be and he did put everything in place so that that could happen. That was amazing to see.
00:48:53
Speaker
Yeah, I just want to check like there was this
00:49:01
Speaker
And then now 94% of Ukrainians who were interviewed, and I have to check how many people were there, but still 94 of those who were interviewed from all over Ukraine is accepting and appreciating what he does. Didn't you also tell me that you didn't actually vote for Zelensky? You weren't such a big man. Yeah, I didn't. Yeah, you didn't.
00:49:25
Speaker
Well, as you said, he like changed a lot in the last three months, right? And also I think he became older, as we see on the pictures, but also I think it's kind of wisdom that came with the experience that he never asked for. So it's actually I think it's changed him. And now he's like doing absolutely not the same things he was doing before.
00:49:50
Speaker
Yeah, but for me, it was so weird that the guy from the TV who was a comedian, I didn't like all the jokes. It was a very people... I don't want to say I have another level of jokes, but still.
00:50:10
Speaker
You know, he was like just a regular guy from the town Krivirik, which is like, you know, not the best town in Ukraine. It's a very industrial one. And yeah, he was like the people person. And that's why the servant of people, the party. Great show, actually, as well, because the servant of people is actually the TV series.
00:50:30
Speaker
that he became really famous with, I think, in Ukraine, right? No, I would not say that. He was well known before then. He was well known by, yes, he was playing in this kind of team.
00:50:45
Speaker
It's after Soviet competition between the teams who are joking the jokes and they are playing between the countries and inside the countries and there were a lot of that. And then he made his own show, I think it's called Kartal 95.
00:51:04
Speaker
Yeah, and he became the head of it. And I think with his team, he was like very popular, like super popular. And he's quite handsome. So he had a lot of potential from, you know, women men. So there's a lot of things that actually, you know, made him who he is now. And he's very charismatic. That's, that's very true. Yeah.
00:51:26
Speaker
Yeah but I didn't vote for him because for me it was like he's not a politician and how how we could like what's that a joke for him like like seriously what kind of experience does he have but now yeah would I vote for him in the future I don't know.
00:51:46
Speaker
We'll see. I think that's one interesting aspect of this as well, though. I don't mean this in any bad way, but obviously, and again, I can look at it this way, maybe a little detached because I'm in the comfort of my home.
00:52:03
Speaker
But he also just has to focus on this one topic at the moment. This is basically and usually politics is very complex with a lot of different scenes to overlook and to arrange and to align. So I'm just saying from a political perspective,
00:52:26
Speaker
I mean, I'm not saying it's easy. I have to really measure my words here a little bit, but weigh my words. But the complexity of the political day-to-day business is a different one now than it is during peacetime. And I think for a politician who understands that, it is also something where he can profile himself very well. But that's why it's also important
00:52:53
Speaker
I do believe in the long run to see what else does he do. This he is doing well without a doubt and I would vote for him for what he's doing right now. But let's see if when this war is ever over and as soon as possible, hopefully, what else he will do and what will come and is he still my president? I think this is probably the interesting question you have to ask yourself then.
Rebuilding Ukraine
00:53:14
Speaker
Yeah, that's what actually is being discussed, let's say.
00:53:20
Speaker
Among not all of Ukrainians, but we all understand that now he will have a lot of support. But also, when the war is over, we'll have to come back to those things that happened before. Because there were also, as you said, corruption and not so many good things working. And we're still a country that's been developing with our ups and downs and so on.
00:53:48
Speaker
And it's not just his work, it's also the work of his team, the president's team. So we'll see. But I would say that Ukrainians
00:54:04
Speaker
We have a fear, I think maybe not we all, not all, millions of people, but those who work in civic sector, we have a fear that this war will make the things that we already achieved, like the level of the human rights, like the level of, I don't know, tolerance and so on, that we will be a bit back to those things because
00:54:30
Speaker
Other things will be more important. Now, for example, a lot of kids are without parents because of the war. A lot of kids became people with disabilities and lots of people lost their homes. So this will be the main things we have to deal with. But the human rights is also a thing that is also important.
00:54:49
Speaker
so i think we we all understand that we will have a lot of work to do i would call it it's not like we're like oh it's it's going to be terrible no we just understand okay there will be lots of work for all of us and
00:55:02
Speaker
Yeah. And actually, yeah, Ukrainians also, you know, like now a lot of people are coming back home, even if they don't have a home. And I'm like, some people are coming back to Kharkiv. People are coming back to even Bucher and they're like cleaning it up after Russians. And it makes me like very
00:55:23
Speaker
It's very touching and it's a very Ukrainian way to not stay in Europe because I ever wanted to come and now I have this chance but to come back because I have to clean it up, I have to build the country I want my kids to live in.
00:55:40
Speaker
And that's, well, I'm proud of those. That's the Ukrainian spirit, yes. Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying that those who are staying in Europe, because, for example, they have kids or other things that stay, no, of course not. No judgment. Up to every person, of course. But when actually the statistic shows us that the number of people who are coming through Polish border is bigger, who are returning than the one who is living.
00:56:05
Speaker
That's the sign. It also gives you the feeling that everybody knows what's at stake. That sounds like the obvious thing to say in a war, but at stake also of what has already been achieved in Ukraine. I think this is also maybe a realization that is
00:56:26
Speaker
setting in. And I can't say from a Ukrainian perspective, but I think a European perspective, a lot of people are looking at it that way a lot more now what has already been achieved. And this interest, this new interest that is there was going on in Ukraine. And I've said this in the other interviews as well.
00:56:44
Speaker
You know, I watched Winter on Fire, which is a documentary film about the Euromaidan. And to see this film is really heartbreaking and sometimes also terrible to behold because of the violence that's being shown there. But it puts in perspective what happened there.
00:57:04
Speaker
the level of violence, how they were just, you know, like really just thrashing people, shooting at them, and how people still stood up and would not leave Maidan because they said, this is my right, this is my future, you're not getting away from here. And this determination
00:57:21
Speaker
is something that is really heroic in my eyes, and there were a lot of heroes during that time. And I think a lot of what is happening now and this consciousness of what has already been achieved probably also goes back to this time. Would you agree with me on that? Or has that much deeper roots and goes back ever since, you know, the independence of Ukraine, even? Oh, yeah. I mean, even I think earlier, because it's also like the narrative of the colonial war and
00:57:50
Speaker
some people are saying like in Soviet Union everyone was like by their own will and you know there were a lot of countries and they were all friends and everything was so good so don't say it was bad and I'm like okay so you never been there. Where do I start? Yeah but I don't want to go there there are a lot of good articles of I don't know Timothy Schneider who already like covered it up better than me but
00:58:13
Speaker
I think, yeah, we would genetically have something like we can close our eyes on many things. But if someone like really pissed us off, we're like, okay, let me you know, clear this up. I'm not like accepting that. And also,
00:58:34
Speaker
I was just, you were just talking about Maidan and I remembered how I was there and I was like, I was younger and it was like, I lived in Kiev, the majority of my life. And I was going to Maidan before work, giving people some food and then coming back in the evening to see what's happening. And the atmosphere there was like just amazing because when Ukrainians are uniting against something, I think that's what we can do best.
00:59:02
Speaker
And yeah, in this way, Putin is actually uniting us better than he thought, I guess. Yes. I also do believe that there has been a gross miscalculation on Putin's side that he thought he would divide Ukraine and his analysis he was entirely wrong in that sense. Yes, especially now. What I'm reading now about the occupied territories is I think what they plan now is that they want to bring
00:59:32
Speaker
peace, Russian peace in quotes, to, for example, her son in Nikolayev and the other souser territories. And that's why they behave like there are not so many killings like it was in butcher, right? So it's totally different plan. But they also do not see the sports they expected, right? They like, they are, I think they didn't expect it, especially on the east and on the souser
01:00:01
Speaker
like parts of Ukraine, they saw that, okay, people are talking Russian there. So that means they support us. It was, it's weird for me to say, was it miscalculation? Was it like another reality? Were not they reading the news? I don't know. Or research is in Ukraine. Anyway, I'm glad they didn't. And we see how it's how Ukrainians are against everything Russia wants to bring. Yeah.
01:00:30
Speaker
how they are against aggression, chauvinism and all those things united. It's very impressive. This is actually a good transition to another topic because we're talking about the Maidan and we're talking about, you know, the whole Maidan movement at the time had to do with Europe, you know, with the turning away of Yanukovych at the time.
01:00:54
Speaker
from European policy that was already on its way and basically decided and then overnight changing his mind and saying, well, in actual fact, we have so much more in common with Russia. Let's forget about the whole European idea that we had. And this is when people actually went to the Maidan. Now, you have been very active in the IJ, which is the biggest interdisciplinary student organization in Europe.
01:01:19
Speaker
Right. So this means that you have obviously you foster a very strong favor for European membership of Ukraine. And at heart, you are Ukrainian. You are European. I mean, you have traveled all over Europe. I've seen some of your travel logs and you've been basically almost in every single place in Europe. So you're really embracing this idea and loving this idea of European content without borders and a shared culture. Right.
01:01:47
Speaker
Now, from that perspective, what do you think... Well, first of all, can you describe your role as president of Aije Kiv and what you did there and how you were involved in policy or student exchange?
01:02:04
Speaker
I think I joined IJ in 2012 and my first event was the Summer University in Italy. Summer University is one of the most popular events that IJ organizes because it's like the group of people from all over Europe hanging out for two weeks in one place and it's a lot about
01:02:23
Speaker
cultural exchange, breaking stereotypes. And it was an amazing way to actually see what Europe is like and also to break lots of stereotypes because at that time you would be like, oh, hey, I'm from Ukraine. Oh, that's something like Russia. And I'm not joking. There was a lot of that like that.
01:02:43
Speaker
Yeah. Then when my dance started, I remember that in February, we went to Lublin event and there was this European planning meeting. And together with other Europeans, we actually gave a speech about what's happening. And because Europeans were like, what's happening in your country? Like, do you have another orange revolution or what?
01:03:08
Speaker
And we have to explain to them that that's what's happening. Here are the pictures that we took. Here is us standing with European Union flags. I don't even remember where we took them, but somehow. And I think that after that, I think in 2014 or something like that, I became the president. And one of the things that I wanted to show to Europe
01:03:33
Speaker
So it was like Ukraine is a beautiful country and our people are of course like amazing and you are very welcome to come and see with your own eyes what's Ukraine like and that's why we're organizing lots of events in Ukraine for Europeans. But also we wanted to show that
01:03:57
Speaker
We are different from Russia, right? Because there are a lot of stereotypes. Though I had friends and I still have, I don't know if I still have friends with those who are staying in Russia. I have to say, not all of them.
01:04:14
Speaker
In 2015, in Kiev, we organized a huge event. I think there were more than 600 people from all over Europe. We organized a conference that was called Rebuilding Democracy because that's what was happening.
01:04:30
Speaker
in Ukraine. And as I told you, there was the appraisal after Maidan. A lot of people went to work in ministries and the other government bodies. And it was actually very cool to see that a lot of Europeans are very interested in what's happening in Ukraine. And we could show them that
01:04:49
Speaker
Because there were so many stereotypes. Oh my god, like if you see in that movie Euro trip about what's what was that Slovakia? I think some people still have these stereotypes about like the cheap food I haven't seen that but I will look it up. I linked it. What euro trip? Is that the movie's name? The American movie was a lot of stereotypes about Europe and Eastern Europe. Yes. Yes, it's an old one but still Some people still have that
01:05:20
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's it. But after 2000...
01:05:26
Speaker
17, I was not that active anymore. But several weeks or even a week ago, there was this same event happening in Serbia. So it was this kind of event that we did in 2015 in Kiev. And now, after many generations of other Europeans, I'm not active anymore. A lot of my friends are not active anymore, but we're still reading the news.
01:05:50
Speaker
So the same event happened in Serbia. And Ukrainian locals made the statements that we would actually like to stop Russian locals to organize events in Russia. Because if they organize events in Russia, people will be coming and paying them. Paying in Russia means paying taxes, means supporting the war. I mean, quite a clear message. And you know, there was still discussions that we are actually, you know,
01:06:20
Speaker
making Russian locals excluded and Russian locals were like, oh no, it's not us. Yeah, it's not our fault. We didn't choose to fight and so on. And we had this conversation after so many years and it just made me so frustrated that it's still a lot of work to do.
01:06:47
Speaker
that. And unfortunately, nobody could go there to represent Ukrainians because they were all in Ukraine. And yeah, they couldn't leave. Some of them still were in like, critical places.
01:07:02
Speaker
I mean this brings up an interesting topic as well because you know this I mean we see also throughout that maybe also not enough I actually don't want to make a judgment call on that at all but you know we see Russian artists being excluded from a lot of events
01:07:21
Speaker
also art events where people say art isn't political, so we should not do that. I would have supported that months ago, I suppose, but now I realize art is always political, especially in times like these.
Future Dialogues with Russia
01:07:38
Speaker
So I might agree with that, but it nonetheless leaves us with this question that I can't find a proper answer for either.
01:07:48
Speaker
At some point, there has to be a dialogue again. There has to be a conversation. Now, I do believe it's too early. Most probably, this is what I get from other conversations as well. Is this something you think about already or is it something that you're like, I don't even want to think about it. When the time comes, I will think about it. But right now, I don't. Or do you think there's already maybe now something that could be done to
01:08:15
Speaker
Maybe think about that already in some form or another. It depends on what exact relations you're talking about. Are you talking about Ukraine and Russia in terms of just two different nations and people talking to each other or more like a dialogue when the representatives of different countries.
01:08:38
Speaker
That is a very good differentiation. You're absolutely right. I do believe it's both in the end, even though both cases probably need different answers. But let me ask you personally, in a way. And now we've talked about this before. You also worked for the Free Russia Foundation, which supports civic society and democratic development in Russia.
01:09:07
Speaker
which is a very valuable cause in Russia. We realize that now more than ever, I suppose. So you have ties there, you know people that are Russian that have basically backed a similar cause, you know, like more democracy, like that's also
01:09:27
Speaker
a different context, but a similar direction than what happened in Ukraine as well. How is it for you to communicate with people that you know from back then on a personal level? Is there still communication happening? Is it difficult? Is it impossible? Is it something you actually don't want to have anything to do with? How do you feel about that?
01:09:48
Speaker
So, it happened to be that I'm in the middle of different people from different countries and it was always like that since the time that I joined this Aije. So, I never judged a person based on the passport or other like race.
01:10:06
Speaker
and other things maybe by the sense of humor but that's that's my that's international that's international absolutely yeah and i would say that if we had more people like those who are working in free russian foundation and fighting like not just
01:10:25
Speaker
saying we're against, but actually working on how the sanctions are working because that's what they do. They're advocating the stuff in the US to make sanctions work and so on. If we had more of those people, maybe there will be
01:10:39
Speaker
no war, right? But there are not enough of them. And unfortunately, they are in minority. But I, I always respected what they do and the team and they're quite close people. And I continue, of course, to talk to them because for me, I would not say that every Russian is like a bad person because of the passport. But now it's harder to say because
01:11:05
Speaker
You know, it's hard because what Russians are saying is actually they are accusing Ukrainians that they accuse Russians. And then I like stopping myself because I don't want to talk to those people. Because what I think in my opinion, the first thing they should start with is to say, we're sorry, or it's not like we never support it or something arrogant like that, but we're sorry and we'll do everything to stop it, right?
01:11:35
Speaker
But it's not happening. And when I hear just today, I read the news about Cannes festival in Kirill Surya Brinkov, who is the director who said that in Ukraine and in Russia, there are refugees and we should help them. And also, like Russians are suffering because we need to help those families whose sons went to war.
01:12:03
Speaker
because they also suffer. And I was like, so you want to help those families whose relatives went to war to kill Ukrainians? Am I understanding this correctly? And it's hard to fight with this and it's hard to stay calm when I hear this kind of things, especially from what you say, artists is very political with these words.
01:12:28
Speaker
Can I give this another spin the way that I see what you're saying and with me having the background of being German and basically having a worldwide apology in front of everything that I need to say actually with our history? The way that I see that this is where I have the parallel with German history as well is in order to have a conversation with Russians and to have a dialogue, before that conversation has to be an unmitigated
01:12:58
Speaker
apology for what is going on in Ukraine. Just the same way that I did not commit the atrocities of the Holocaust, but I still believe being German, it serves me well and everybody else to say, look, I'm really sorry for what happened 80 years ago. And even though it's a long time ago, I still apologize. I still owe this apology to everybody who suffered from this terrible crime.
01:13:21
Speaker
So maybe this is a way forward. We can leave it at that. That doesn't have to be an answer, a final answer. But this is at least how I'm processing what you just said. And I think that makes sense. I think, of course, I think also it's for you, it's like something that was also created a lot by the German government culture. Right. It was also the part of the, I think, strategy right after what's happened.
01:13:52
Speaker
But now...
01:13:56
Speaker
It's more human, right? I mean, there is no strategy. There is no way Russians would say, first, you have to say, sorry, because the official politics of Russia is saying, like, we're fighting with Ukraine because we're deliberating them from Nazis or whatever. So it's more, I expect this from people who I maybe know, because I don't know if it's for people. It's too early to say that. But even they are keeping silent.
01:14:22
Speaker
They're posting the Instagram pictures from somewhere they live now. They're going to Georgia because they don't want to live in Russia and they are starting to live in their communities. For example, in Georgia, I have lots of friends and they're now, I'm not saying suffering, but actually they feel that Russians come in there and it's not just Russians who are against the war, it's also those who have money and can go outside the country and support the war.
01:14:53
Speaker
So...
01:14:54
Speaker
It's just sad for me to see. I'm very disappointed, let's say, with people who I would call my even friends because they lived in Ukraine. Some of them, they would come visit me and now they're like keeping silent. Maybe it's hard for them to say I'm sorry, but it's hard to me to live outside of my town and not to see my grandma. So maybe they could
01:15:23
Speaker
see who's in the worst condition and to swallow their pride. Could you say pride? Could it also be fear for saying something, making something public that's not in line with Russian policy, Russian politics? I think that's the problem of why it's happened because that's why there are no riots on the streets because everyone's so afraid.
01:15:52
Speaker
But if they would be more united, if there will be more people who are not afraid, imagine like Russia is a huge country. There are of course more people who are like not the oligarchs and people who are taking these decisions. But if they go out altogether, I think there will be a lot. The problem is they don't want to. And I think there are not so many of them because the propaganda worked for 30 years. And we see now it worked.
01:16:18
Speaker
terribly well because sometimes I go and read the messages on insta and I want to you know forget what they see because what they write is like wow seriously a real person can actually write that I'm like okay that's the reality sometimes they need to come back and you know check
01:16:40
Speaker
Yes, there's a lot of hate and anger on social media, not only since the outbreak of... But even now, I'm not talking about the Western relations between Russia and Ukrainians.
01:16:54
Speaker
It's very hard to see what's that. But that's also a part of the war, the informational war. Of course. No, I do believe, I mean, a state-run propaganda with censorship has an immense amount of power. I mean, I've been thinking about this lately a
Impact of Russian Propaganda
01:17:14
Speaker
lot. I mean, we as a human being, we can only have an identity by
01:17:20
Speaker
constantly comparing ourselves to the outside world, what's being reflected back to us, right? And if constantly something of that magnitude is reflected back to us, we are under threat. We are being, we're the victims and you hear it everywhere and in all media, it is, you cannot escape it and it will influence you in one way or another. I'm not using that as an excuse. I'm not saying there's an excuse, you know,
01:17:47
Speaker
no excuse needed, things are the way that they are. But I think this is obviously a fundamental problem now with a lot more censorship even in Russia where people get arrested for putting up white signs, you know, with nothing on it for being agitators. Anyway, but I don't actually want to put so much focus on Russia. For me, the interesting idea was rather like how it is for you now in your communication with that history. And I think you answered that question more than enough.
01:18:16
Speaker
What I really wanted to get into is also because of the European history and enthusiasm that you have, and also seeing that there are already institutions in place that support Ukraine on a European level and integrate it.
01:18:32
Speaker
What do you think has been missing and what has been done wrong in the EU to get Ukraine on board? And why did it take a war for there to be an actual open discussion of making Ukraine a member of the European Union? I don't have answers to this actually. I don't know why they were waiting so long. Maybe they were scared that Russia will start the war. Well, now it's too late.
01:19:01
Speaker
Possibly. I mean, these are things I don't know and I would never know. I mean, I read a lot of articles, but who to believe? Yeah. Then let me put it another way. I know that's super loaded question. I'm very good at that, by the way, because you haven't forgotten that. But what would you be expecting from a EU membership of the Ukraine? What are your hopes for that?
01:19:30
Speaker
Well, I think, like, have you seen the memes that Zelensky is like signing all this, and we were all like Ukrainians on the internet, like, what's in there? And what kind of questions are like, what kind of.
01:19:45
Speaker
I was like, there's this scene, sorry, in servant of the people where he gets this phone call, it's like, hello, we wanted to offer you the EU membership and Zelensky is in his role as president. Like, oh, that's so great. That's wonderful. I love you. We've been waiting for this. The Ukrainian people are so happy. He's like, oh, what Ukraine? Ah, sorry, I thought this was Serbia.
01:20:03
Speaker
And then it's Merkel on the phone and she hangs up and he's all disappointed and has to go back into his office. It's told a lot about the enthusiasm there is for Europe and Ukraine and the lack of appreciation for that from the European side. I think it was very condensed in that one single scene.
01:20:23
Speaker
I think it's a bit different now, of course, because actually Ukraine been proving that we're fighting for the European values with our own lives. But no, I don't have an answer as well. Actually, I don't know what we need from the same rights that the other countries has, but it's also like the same. It's different for many countries like Moldova or Romania.
01:20:55
Speaker
I think maybe it's also, and look, I'm just spitballing here, so also correct me if you think that's something else there, but is it also maybe a sense of more security? I do think that might also play a role, to be part of European Union, a member state. You wouldn't feel so...
01:21:14
Speaker
you know, alone on the front with Russia. Yeah, you're correct. I was thinking about, you know, other things. Yeah, me too. That's not the only thing I think security is not shouldn't be the only motivator for things. But, you know, security would help in February, on 12th, 24th of February, because if we were already in European Union, I think Putin would not be risking so much because that would be just another case. But
01:21:43
Speaker
He is so Ukraine as the country, he can just easily invade and it's not the part of the European Union, so it's absolutely different. Yeah, so security is the thing.
01:21:59
Speaker
I don't know. It's hard for me to say because, you know, one of the messages that we were actually spreading around in the first, I think, two weeks, maybe three weeks of the invasion was to close the sky. It was the call to NATO.
01:22:15
Speaker
And we were all like, it's going to happen soon. They'll do that. Yeah, that's what we need. I mean, it was the message that was given by the also like the foreign minister, foreign affairs, and everyone was asking for it. But then we realized it's not going to happen. They're not going to put their armies because for them, it will mean they will be entering the war. And it was quite frustrating. Yes.
01:22:42
Speaker
It was like eye-opening, I would say, for many people, because we didn't understand it. Because it could all work faster with clothes in the sky, I think.
01:22:56
Speaker
I think a lot of people were very afraid of, you know, an escalation. Me too. I will be honest with you, I also felt and I still feel things could spiral very quickly out of control if that were to happen. And there are very different opinions on that. This is my opinion and who knows, maybe I'll change that as well at some time as well. But I still believe that's,
01:23:23
Speaker
It could lead easily to an escalation that we don't want either. But I also entirely understand that having that sky above you in the Ukraine where you fear the bombing of Russian army every single day, every single minute, it is a different conversation to be had. I also entirely understand that. Yeah, but it didn't happen.
01:23:48
Speaker
We have to fight with what we have and that's the weapon that we are receiving and we need the countries to continue to give us the weapon because that's the only way. Now it's clear, now I think the messages are not like
01:24:04
Speaker
Oh my god, give us humanitarian aid or the others. I see now that the messages are as soon as we stop the war, the less the humanitarian aid will need, the less kids will stay without the families. We just need to win the war, not finish, not go on the peace stuff, but just win the war. It will be the only case because others, like, otherwise it will be a long one and it will be not good. No one is interested except
01:24:34
Speaker
except of some people. That brings me to one of the last points. You already said weapons, which is absolutely understandable and necessary also from my point of view. As sad as it is, to be
01:24:54
Speaker
asking for that because I didn't think I would ever openly ask for weapons for a country that to me is also entirely new, like it is for many other people, I suppose.
Understanding Ukrainian History
01:25:04
Speaker
And it's very strange because I feel like a stranger when I do that, but I think it is the only thing that makes sense in this particular situation. What else can Europe especially do, being the neighbor, the one integrating factor in this to support Ukraine?
01:25:24
Speaker
Further, more. I think I would appreciate if Europeans in general would start to
01:25:36
Speaker
give more attention to not just what's happening now, but also to learn some of Ukrainian history and understand why this happened like that. Not because there was a country Ukraine, it appears 30 years ago, and somehow Putin decided to invite it, but to understand what was the background.
01:25:54
Speaker
What was Russia doing? And it was not just the first time, you know, the terrible thing happened on our territories. It was the Holodomor was lots of people died because of hunger that was created by the Soviet Union. It was a lot of artists, cultural representatives who were killed because they were, you know, promoting Ukrainian language and the culture and the music and so on. So there was a lot of repressions and
01:26:22
Speaker
It's the style of Russia. That's it. We have to stop it. And I think that would be cool if people would finally understand it and accept it because I don't want to live in the world where I see that this is accepted, you know, that this is happening and it continued to happen. I was thinking about kids. I think I was like, well, maybe like an
01:26:48
Speaker
in five years. But I put this on hold. I don't want to raise someone in the world where this is allowed by others. Yeah, I didn't know I would say that but okay.
01:27:04
Speaker
Well, I think it's very understandable. I have thoughts of similar things, not because of war, but of climate change and other things and not comparable, but generally the state of the world and the problems we have to deal with. And we are not actually to some degree. Wow. What is your hope for the future of Ukraine?
01:27:37
Speaker
Well, the first is to win the war and then to start to rebuild the buildings and the institutions and to start to rebuild the system and to make it for people who live there and to become more open and more democratic than we are.
01:27:57
Speaker
Because we still have a lot of things to work on. I mean, I'm not, I don't want to say that Ukraine is perfect. No, of course, but it's our country, you know, and we will continue to work and we'll make it until we are satisfied with the results. Because I think that's the general mode of people I talk to because everyone wants to go home.
01:28:21
Speaker
Yeah, I think that is and I just want to go home whenever the sirens are stopped and I hope it will be soon but I don't make any forecasts anymore to be honest because I have no idea how long it will take.
01:28:39
Speaker
Yeah, I just want to see my relatives to drink good coffee because one thing about Ukraine is we have great coffee. Yes, you have a great coffee culture. Yes, it's amazing. We have like three ways of coffees, filters and so many good ones. The food is great, people are awesome cultures.
01:29:01
Speaker
Nature. People don't know that Borscht is actually Ukrainian and not Russian. Another example of this cultural chauvinism that we've been following throughout. And Borscht is so good, I mean. Borscht is so good. I agree. And the story about Borscht is an absolute great example of appropriation of Russia, of the Ukrainian thing. And it's happened in many ways with lots of people and their work and so on.
01:29:33
Speaker
Everybody was called a Soviet artist instead of a Ukrainian artist, for instance. I talked about this in the podcast with Maria as well. Yeah, she can tell about that a lot. We have a lot of work to do, I would say, but I'm ready to do that.
01:29:50
Speaker
Do you have just, this is really in closing now because I'm just thinking, because I am, because we're talking about Ukrainian culture and appreciating it for what it is. I've been doing some reading of, you know, some Ukrainian literature right now. I'm reading a very beautiful book. It's called the German title. It's by Yuri Vinchuk. It's called The Death Tango. I think that would be the translation. Do you know it? Yeah.
Cultural Reflections in Literature
01:30:15
Speaker
I mean, we studied that.
01:30:17
Speaker
It's a beautiful book. It's really in the realm of fantasy as well, the way he writes about books, the way he writes about Lviv in general, just the old town, the history, the way that the different cultures meet and interact, like the four friends, a Jew, a German, a Ukrainian, and a Russian. This is so beautifully written, but I don't want to talk about
01:30:45
Speaker
My book, I would like to ask you actually what you would recommend maybe. Do you have any books, any films that you say people should watch? You love them. They're great. Oh my God. I know. When you have to say just one or even two, it's very hard. You can say 10. You can 20, 50 out of 10. I guess you're the least of them, Boris.
01:31:12
Speaker
I don't know, I will just talk about the one that I remember just instantly when we were talking about. So there is one, it's called Tiger Catchers.
01:31:29
Speaker
to boys, to friends. It's the book that you would actually read when you were at school, but it's full of friendship, a lot of promises, a lot of unknowing the future and so on, and it's beautifully written. It's a great book.
01:31:45
Speaker
And another one, I think it's called Misto, which is the city, and it's written by Valerian Piedemohailny. I can share the links afterwards. And it's about Kiev. It's about the student who just comes to Kiev and...
01:32:02
Speaker
It's a very light one but it tells about how he looked like in I think 80s and he started to work in the editorial of one newspaper and then he is also studying but he actually it's about the lazy person.
01:32:19
Speaker
who decided not to study anymore because he lost his life in Kiev. He decides that he will continue to work, to write something. And he's absolutely amazed by Kiev and the blossom of chestnuts and so on. And when I was reading that, I felt like so many streets, so many things. I remember and now I see how they look like and they are still standing there in those houses, the names of the streets. Yeah, it's a great book. Yeah.
01:32:49
Speaker
I will link to that.
Supporting Small NGOs
01:32:50
Speaker
It will be in the show notes like everything else that we've discussed today. The one thing that I always ask at the end is, and especially with your NGO background as well, do you have a particular project or something that people could donate to that they could support that you think is good? It's great.
01:33:13
Speaker
I mean, there are so many of them. Yes, I know. But I also refer to the interview of that Maria Berlinska, who said, support the small ones, the NGOs that are not so big, because they also have to run. And it's good when you're supporting them. So for example, there is one NGO called The Girls, and they're helping exactly the girls. And you know that.
01:33:39
Speaker
Especially in wartime, women and girls are also suffering more, unfortunately. So I can give you the concept on how to donate them. They're trusted angel. That would be amazing.
Closing Remarks and Gratitude
01:33:51
Speaker
I will link to that. And you can always help animals. It's a good thing to do. If you don't support the war, then you know there are animals. Yes, we forget a lot of things along the way. Yes, it's a good thing you bring that to our attention as well. Absolutely.
01:34:07
Speaker
Yes, it's another topic, but no, it's not another topic, but it's something that's good. I think you created some consciousness in a way just by bringing it up now. So that's good. Anna, thank you so much for your time, for the conversation you shared with us, for answering all my questions and for your patience. I know this is difficult and therefore you are just representative of the Ukrainian spirit of just
01:34:34
Speaker
standing up even when it's difficult and hard and I appreciate very much you and the time you gave me today. Thank you so much. I'm super pleased and it's very nice of you that you invited me. It's my first experience with podcasts talking for two hours about Ukraine, but I loved it. Thank you. Thank you for all your questions. It's also very inspiring that you are interested in what's happening in Ukraine.
01:35:02
Speaker
I just hope that one day you'll be able to come to Ukraine and I'll show you the best coffee, the best places to eat, the best places to hang out and listen to music and so on. Let's have an unknown date in the future to do that and it will come, the day will come. So this is something we can both look forward to now, okay? Thank you so, so much, Anna. Thank you.
01:35:26
Speaker
And with this, we are at the end of this week's journey in the Yellow Van. Thank you very much for coming along today. We hope you had a good, but not too comfortable ride. Thank you, Anna, for your trust in me and the work we do at Mind the Bump Productions.
01:35:43
Speaker
Anna has also compiled a list of articles and books to read that give a very multifaceted perspective of the war and its origins. I made the whole document available as a download and I linked to it in the show notes, along with the recommended initiatives and organizations to donate to, if you can.
01:36:03
Speaker
If you are Ukrainian and would like to come on the show or if you know someone who should, please don't hesitate to contact us. We are happy and grateful for anyone reaching out to us on www.yellowvanstories.com where you can also leave us your general feedback or ideas for improvements.
01:36:22
Speaker
We hope to welcome you back next week for a brand new episode. Until then, keep loving in the face of fear and stand with Ukraine. Take it away, Jim.
01:36:55
Speaker
and those in need. And I know my attitude disturbs you, and so I should. And I know my better scenes on travel into those like you took a very, very long time. But my message is clear.
01:37:43
Speaker
In the face of
01:37:54
Speaker
It's the fact of your life. It's the fact of your life. It's the fact of your life. It's the fact of your life.
01:38:42
Speaker
All you stand is for your rights