Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
George Donios "The MINI Diary"
41 Plays3 years ago
George is an author, a radio DJ and presenter, a musician, photographer and filmmaker. But above all he is a traveller, exploring the shared essence that makes us all human. His thirst for the world and its people is hard to quench and the moments of connection and mutual exchange always leave him wanting more.
No wonder then that he turned to photography and its scientific promise of turning ethereal visual impressions into lasting memory, making good on one of mankind’s oldest dreams.
Here is what George has to say about this himself, better than I ever could:
“Photography was a one-night-stand for me. Perhaps something you try just to get a kick of awesomeness right after a break up rips your world apart. Herberts were soon replaced by shutter clicks and as life would have it, what was meant as a fleeting encounter turned into love at first sight.
From street photography in Barcelona, to festivals in Asia, to voluntary humanitarian missions in Africa, my lenses have been my eyes and my camera my best travel companion ever since.
I’ve never considered myself much of an artist. Some people like fishing, other love hunting - I belong to the group of folks who are dazzled, inspired and driven by photography’s ability to change the world. To stop age at 20. To keep a smile resonant and beautiful forever. To preserve a feeling or an emotion until it’s thawed and relived once more by the warmth of a familiar gaze. To inspire travel, induce exploration and shape public opinion.”
George has written a book about his travel experiences called “Stories From The Road” in which he recounts impressions from all parts of the world.
Vicky and I have recently been invited to his weekly radio show “Off The Beaten Track” and the music he played on air was a celebration of diverse cultural origins, taking us with him off the beaten track, putting us in touch with the abundance of human creation.
It painted the picture of a man free of boundaries or preconceptions. Of a man believing in the beauty of all humanity. What better guest for a yellow camper van traveling the world?
SHOW NOTES
George's Photography Website
Follow The Mini Diaries
Every Tuesday, tune in with George on Radio Nowhere
Read George's book: 8+5=13 Stories From The Road
Alec Issigonis - The Austin MINI designer
Austin MINI
Pygmy Peoples
Konstantinos Kavafis
"Ithaka", 1975, by Konstantinos Kavafis
Gora, musical instrument
Sona Jobarteh
Lucky Dube
Ali Farka Touré
Music of Mali
Get Jim Kroft's Song, "Love In The Face Of Fear"
Mind The Bump
Yellow Van Stories is a Mind the Bump Production.
Recommended
Transcript
Seize the Moment: Lessons from the Pandemic
00:00:18
Speaker
I will never, ever, ever, in my life, once this thing is over or it normalizes out, I will never, ever say, it's okay, I can do it tomorrow. Fuck that, I'll do it now. What tomorrow? You never know what tomorrow brings anymore. Like seriously, we all thought we had the lecture of, nah, it's okay, I can do it next year, or I'll do it next month. You can't now. Like imagine, you can't.
00:00:46
Speaker
There's so many things that you can't do that we left for tomorrow and tomorrow, yesterday is tomorrow is today and we're stuck. That's definitely a learning that I'm taking from this pandemic story.
Meet Bastian and the Yellow Van Stories Podcast
00:01:02
Speaker
Hello and welcome to a new episode of the Yellow Van Stories, your interview podcast taking you across the globe in a yellow French campervan by the name of Fonzie. I'm your host and driver Bastian.
00:01:16
Speaker
Every week I invite creatives from all over the world into the van to explore with them the opportunities hidden within a crisis and, more generally, what life is like in their part of our globe. We've been waiting just for you and kept you a seat by the window side. Also because, technically, there are no others.
00:01:36
Speaker
fun season first gear ready and we are good to go so buckle up and get comfortable because today we're going to Thessaloniki and beyond.
00:01:52
Speaker
Here with us in the yellow van today is George Dornios, an author, musician, radio presenter, photographer, and filmmaker from Thessaloniki in Greece.
A Conversation with Creative Talent George Dornios
00:02:03
Speaker
It's great to have you on the yellow van today, George, and with us as well, not to forget the, as always, beautiful and lovely Vicky Markoleva.
00:02:11
Speaker
Hello, everybody. Welcome, George. Thanks for joining us. Hi, guys. Thanks for the invitation and the, I don't know, should I say, my ticket for the yellow van ride or boarding pass or whatever, but it's great to be on board, actually. It's wonderful to have you on board. It's absolutely wonderful to have you on board and we'll explore a little more. It's especially wonderful to have you on board.
00:02:32
Speaker
today because just recently we have been on your radio show and you did a bit of an interview, a bit of an interview. I don't know how you do a bit of an interview. Quite of a long interview. Yes, exactly. Yes. And it was an absolutely wonderful and memorable experience and so now what goes around comes around you here with us and we could be happier. So thanks for joining us once again. No.
00:02:56
Speaker
Once again, thanks for the invite. So, before we get lost in all of that, the most important question of all the Yellow Van Stories conversations is, what are you drinking, George? What am I drinking? I'm actually having a double shot of a Martini Bianco. There's two pretty sizable chunks of ice in there, a bit of lemon, and yeah, that's me for the night. And I got a whole bottle in the freezer, so you can ask as many questions as you like.
00:03:24
Speaker
You come well prepared. This is wonderful. He was born ready. He's a pro, of course. And he's also in the radio business, you know, so he knows that, you know, stuff like this can just drag on and drag
Cultural Exchange Through Drinks and Banter
00:03:36
Speaker
on. We hope it's not going to drag on. It needs a bit of attention, though, because this is kind of like don't drink and drive. It's it also holds. That's true. Don't don't. But we're not driving too much. Well, no, but we're talking so you know.
00:03:49
Speaker
But figuratively, we're definitely talking, like metaphorically driving. We're definitely metaphorically driving without any doubt because we're going to actually visit a whole lot of places today with your help. That's why you're also here. I'll do my best. So next question. Oh, yeah. By the way, before we carry on, we are having Uzo on ice with water, a summer Greek drink. So original. I mean, we couldn't be more original, I have to say.
00:04:16
Speaker
But you're doing half the job, do you have a message there, do you have something to mind? No, we're halfway there, we're going to stand there, certain scarcity is here. I can imagine, two fellows here. But we got the small glasses, you see. I love the terminology, scarcity. It's as if you're like in the middle of nowhere in the bunnies, or in, I don't know, Gobi Desert or something. Yeah, we only have like goat milk, so that's the best we can do. But anyway.
00:04:45
Speaker
We like drama. We like drama. Of course. I think you invented that stuff, right? I mean, one Greek to another and a German in the middle that's been there. I think you invented that stuff. I can smell the crisis already.
00:05:00
Speaker
That sounds like the beginning of a terrible joke in Greek, to be honest. Yes, it does actually. We're just missing the airplane and the cannonballs in the jungle waiting to capture us as we fall. Very nice. So, I have to say, welcome everybody to our first live podcast. Thank you very much for joining us. And first of all, thank you again from my part Zod for being here with us because you have a lot of exciting stories to
00:05:24
Speaker
to tell and to share and you have already shared it in so many ways and I can't wait to hear also what I don't want to give it away, I will give it to you. Don't spill the beans yet. I'm really excited for the second part of our conversation because I've known you for many years so you know it's always nice looking back but it's even nicer looking forward.
00:05:49
Speaker
Yes, that is true. So just to make sure with the second part of the conversation, you don't mean the second part of this conversation, right? Because otherwise we would have to fast forward now to where it becomes interesting to you. You mean this is the second part of the conversation as opposed to the one we had on George's show,
George's Journey into Photography
00:06:06
Speaker
right? Yes. Okay. Just making sure that I don't have to speak a lot faster now than I did before. No, no, you don't. Don't worry about it.
00:06:12
Speaker
By the way, I'm just checking. We're live on Facebook as well. That's really working out because, you know, with me, you're never sure. But with your help, Vicky, we managed to do it. Thanks for all the competence you bring to the table. So where are you right now, George?
00:06:30
Speaker
I'm at home. Where am I supposed to be? We have a lockdown. Where could I be actually? At the moment, right? So I'm at home. I'm at my studio. You don't have a lot of choice. I think after six o'clock, is that right? Yeah, well, me being a photographer, I can actually roam about with my, let's say, formal license, so to speak, but you know, it's still not the same. So yes, I'm locked up, like everybody else at home.
00:06:56
Speaker
And yeah, Martin and Sig is a good company for the rest of the evening. Oh, thank you. I mean, I mean, I feel touched, you know, but you know, I mean, good company, we can just really return that. And with Uzo, what can possibly go wrong? If you have to choose anything in that room you're in right now, your home, what what is your favorite thing in there?
00:07:20
Speaker
In this, oh, that's an extremely difficult question. Yeah, I know. If I had to say something, hold on, in my entire house or in this specific room, what would I choose? I would go for the specific room just to make it a little easier on you.
00:07:36
Speaker
Man, it's not easy. I'm telling you I Really don't like you I'm actually gonna Okay, so my favorite item in the room right now is a picture All right, and more about that picture, please It's actually the first picture I ever shot myself
00:08:05
Speaker
And I think I was, it's my first ever sunset. I shot that on a Zenith, on my grandfather's Zenith, a Russian, actually it was a Soviet camera, right? Because I still have right next to me, I have my grandfather's camera. And it was my first ever sunset at this...
00:08:29
Speaker
at their village where my grandparents used to have their restaurant and their little hostel right in front of the sea and I'm at the first floor at the second room of the pension and I took a shot and judging from where the sun is I think it's June and there's a windsurfer and I just caught the windsurfer on the reflection of the
00:08:51
Speaker
of the orange sun on the waters. And that was my first actual shot. Wow.
From Corporate Life to Creative Pursuits
00:08:56
Speaker
And it was on film and I didn't mess it up. So that was...
00:09:00
Speaker
That was a very wow moment back then. So I think that's my favorite item. I mean, everything is a very personal item in the room, in the house in general. But I think I would go for that picture. Yeah. Very nice. And if, I mean, it's all up to you, of course, if you want to share that with the audience later, maybe we can just link to it. But it's on your website, I suppose, isn't it?
00:09:25
Speaker
That picture? No, it's not. No. Okay, then forget what I said. Moving on. We will let it be a mystery. We will let it be a mystery, but I think you had such a wonderful description of it now. I mean, in all flying colors. I can scan it and we can share it if you'd like.
00:09:44
Speaker
Maybe you can paint us a diagram to share it, you know, just a quick sketch of the photo. Maybe you can do that. I'm horrific. There's a lot of things I'm good at. I'm not sure it has the same entertainment value, but we can try. I'm horrible at drawing stuff. I'm horrible. You don't want to see my... I think you can't do that. No, I admit, I openly admit I'm horrible at doing stuff with pencils. Like even sometimes if I write fast enough,
00:10:10
Speaker
Not even I can read what I wrote. That was a huge problem at university where like, if a lecture would go bad, the whole time we're like speeding like our pencils were on fire. And then I would go home and try and study my own notes. And I was like, what in God's name am I writing here? It was like, so nevermind. You don't want to see my sketches.
00:10:28
Speaker
You don't. You know, I think I have this theory because I think all photographers are people that just can't paint or draw and that's why they turn to photography. You think so? At least that's how it worked. That's how it worked with me. I'll remember that when I first see you live. I mean, I can't draw to save the life of me. That was an actual threat. So beware.
00:10:53
Speaker
All right So like just quickly just as a quick introduction not not an introduction, but I would yeah a quick introduction if you what am I saying of you as usual I would just write a little introduction that I created myself With your help though this time as well because I found some really beautiful quotes of quotes of you So if you are ready, I would just quickly read it out so that everybody knows a little bit more about you All right
00:11:22
Speaker
All right. So George is an author, a radio DJ and presenter, a musician, photographer and filmmaker. Well, it's definitely hard to read that without taking a breath in between. But above all, he is a traveler exploring the shared essence that makes us all human. His thirst for the world and its people is hard to quench and the moments of connection and mutual exchange always leave him wanting more.
00:11:49
Speaker
No wonder then that he turned to photography and its scientific promise of turning ethereal visual impressions into lasting memory, making good on one of mankind's oldest dreams. So, and here's what George has to say about this himself. Better than I ever could.
00:12:05
Speaker
So this is quoting you now, of course, so, you know, what's about to come. Oh, you went on my side. Oh, of course I did. Of course I did. What do you think? So you say photography was a one-night stand for me. Perhaps something you try just to get a kick of awesomeness right after a breakup rips your world apart. Herbert's were student Herbert's. So what?
00:12:32
Speaker
What are right there? See, I told you, even when I talk, people can read my stuff. It's impossible to give up.
00:12:46
Speaker
Well, let's just pretend you typed this out and I didn't because and it's handwritten. I don't know who Herbert is, okay? I don't know the guy. Don't get me into trouble though. I don't know Herbert either. So I don't know how Herbert slipped in there. Anyway, so let's move along again. So Herbert, whoever you are, he was replaced.
00:13:10
Speaker
Get out of my text, Herbert. By shutter clicks, and as life would have it, what was meant as a fleeting encounter turned into love at first sight. We really have to figure out who Herbert is. That sounds like a really interesting story. Let's give it to the audience so that they listen to something. From street photography in Barcelona, to festivals in Asia, to voluntary humanitarian missions in Africa, which we will talk about as well, my lenses have been my eyes and my camera my best travel companion ever since.
00:13:39
Speaker
I've never considered myself much of an artist. Some people like fishing, others love hunting, and I belong to the group of folks who are dazzled, inspired, and driven by photography's ability to change the world. To stop age at 20,
The Pandemic's Impact on Greece and Society
00:13:53
Speaker
to keep a smile resonant and beautiful forever, to preserve a feeling or an emotion until it's thought and relived once more by the warmth of a familiar gaze, to inspire travel, induce exploration, and shape public opinion.
00:14:10
Speaker
That's wonderful stuff, really, I have to say. It's really very, very inspiring. George has written a book about his travel experiences called Stories from the Road, in which he recounts impressions from all parts of the world. Unfortunately, this book is only available in Greece so far.
00:14:26
Speaker
So far. And in Greek, so far. Exactly. Working on it, right? No, hold on. It's not only available in Greece. If you need a good translator, don't turn to me, but maybe Vicky could help with that as well. I'm not getting involved with this mass travels. It's too, it's too, it's, it's complicated. You can't follow that with any translation, but I would definitely recommend the book.
00:14:47
Speaker
And I think we will leave a post on the comments. Yes, absolutely. We will link to that. Yes, it's a very special thing. It's one of, I think, his latest creations. So it would be very interesting to get into the world of George's travels. It's a really exciting ride. Yes, absolutely. I hope you don't have to get up early. I can't say that I have read it myself because... I hope you don't have to get up early for work tomorrow.
00:15:14
Speaker
No. Okay. No, does this work? What are you talking about? This is work. I am working right now. Yes, this is it. Okay. Usually I sleep through the entire week until I have an interview. That's pretty much it. Vicky and I have recently been invited to his weekly radio show off the beaten track. And the music he played on air was a celebration of diverse cultural origins, taking us with him off the beaten track, putting us in touch with the abundance of human creation.
00:15:42
Speaker
It painted the picture of a man free of boundaries or preconceptions, of a man believing in the beauty of all humanity. What better guess for a yellow campervan traveling the world? We feel therefore incredibly privileged to have you on board on Fonzie today, George. Welcome to the yellow van. Well, thank you guys and thank you Fonzie for having me on board. And we'll go wherever the road takes us tonight, I guess.
00:16:07
Speaker
Yes, exactly. So let's start where we always start, basically. What's it like in Greece right now? What's the current situation at the moment? OK, next question. OK, we can work with this. Hold on. No, we're not going to work with this. The current situation in Greece, there's a lot of social unrest at the moment in the country.
00:16:36
Speaker
I mean, it's another country in the world, you know, going through this COVID-19 pandemic. We are in lockdown, but things are kind of spiraling out of control lately because of a lot of social unrest issues and challenges we've been having in the country.
00:16:56
Speaker
Most of them are focusing around police brutality, issues we've been faced up with. So people spend a lot of time being out in the streets, especially during the last week. There's a lot of stuff that's been happening that has shaken us up sincerely as a society and as a nation.
00:17:17
Speaker
And people are basically trying to make their voices heard and make our daily living just a bit more tolerable than what it is today. So it's been an interesting month. I can quite honestly say it's been an interesting month.
00:17:35
Speaker
quite honest with you. Other than that, on other news, as they say, the sun is shining, weather is great, it's Greece after all, you know, beautiful country, beautiful place, yadda, yadda, yadda. No, exactly, but also in Greece has one of the strictest lockdowns in Europe. It is. It's quite intense, actually. And very prolonged and, you know, it's a balance of things. So, yes, for sure, I was also there until the end of February, but now it's starting to
00:18:05
Speaker
really take a bit of a more, let's say, open form because people were feeling depressed and I think also frightened a lot throughout the year but now it is now coming out into the form of protests, of claims, so that's
00:18:26
Speaker
It is an interesting time again in our country. What can I say? It just follows a lot of physics, like everything has a breaking point. And I believe that we've been pushed to our very limits of endurance in how much stuff we can take. And, you know, it's kind of like, guys, just chill a bit, right? No more. Just let us breathe a bit. That's kind of like the situation at the moment.
00:18:49
Speaker
Yes, it is exactly this feeling of suffocation. Yeah, actually, that's that's an excellent choice. It's suffocation. That's that's how it feels suffocating all this thing. It's yes, especially with regards to the children and how their reality is now in our country, you know, there are kids who go to school and their idea of school is people wearing masks and
00:19:12
Speaker
correct you know these experiences that you know we will come to find in the next years but still you know there are opportunities even in situations like this and the fact that people are going on the street i believe it's a
00:19:27
Speaker
it's important because yes you take part in how society works and that's correct of course taking into consideration all the measures you know to keep a distance as much as possible of course to wear your mask that goes without saying but also not be dormant
00:19:44
Speaker
And yeah, I think also that's one essential part of your life that you don't want to be dormant. So I will take it now from the Greek pandemic and everything and the German pandemic to Basti and to you to take us to a little, let's say, a different place for a little while.
00:20:08
Speaker
For a little while, yes. But it's also always interesting, you know, for me to find out what it looks like in other parts of the world right now, because it is something we share. We share it in different ways, depending on where we are. We have different realities, but it is nonetheless reality that also is a shared one at
George's Personal Transformation and Life Choices
00:20:28
Speaker
the moment. But this is also something that we will get back into maybe a little bit later after we also explore some of your
00:20:39
Speaker
plans, first of all, the plans that you have for the near future. And Vicki and I have been talking about it before we find out about your plans for the near future. It would also be nice to know a little more about your personal history and backstory and why this makes so much sense for you and why you feel so passionate about what is going to happen. So
00:21:00
Speaker
In talking to you lately, you have always told me that you're only seven years old, right? Basically. This is something that has very much stuck with me. Can you explain and share with us why you say that? What happened seven years ago, and where were you seven years ago? Okay, that's actually a bit of a... It is a bit of a long story, but...
00:21:25
Speaker
Yes. We got time. You got a frozen bottle of Martini and we have a bottle of Uzo. So no stress. Why am I seven years old? Well.
00:21:37
Speaker
Taking you a few years back, biologically, my birth dates, for example, I'm going to be 42 on 28th of April, but the version of me that's going to turn 42 on this April 28th has nothing to do with the version of George that used to be out there in the past.
00:22:00
Speaker
It's been a long road and actually that has been the longest trip and I'm still going through this trip as we speak and I will be going through this trip throughout my entire life. And it's a trip of adventure and it's a trip of discovery and it's a trip where I like leaving myself open to new ideas along the way. So it's definitely an evolving one.
00:22:28
Speaker
I guess probably roughly seven years ago is where things crystallized within me of what I wanted to do with my life and how I wanted to be with my life. And I started looking for the ways of making that change happen. Go say, it's not like you wake up one fine morning and you say, okay, I'm gonna change my life. I'll snap up a finger and you go, and magic happens and everything's new. It doesn't work this way. What did happen a few years ago was that I did wake up
00:22:58
Speaker
And I looked at myself in the mirror and I said, you know what? Today is going to be the first day of my new life. That did not mean that my life all of a sudden magically disappeared and reappeared around me in the new improved form that I wanted it to be. But at least that was the day that actually took the decision of saying, hey, no more. Some things need to change.
00:23:22
Speaker
Where do I start with? What happened for you to realize that things had to change? Where were you at the time? Can you just describe? Well, the freak out moment was in Singapore, right? So I was in Singapore. I was living and living a completely different life to the one I actually lived today. Can you describe that life a little bit to us? What happened? Imagine, imagine, imagine, like,
00:23:51
Speaker
OK, taking you a few years back, I studied mechanical engineering. OK, so I was in Scotland. They headed what university. That's what I did. My mechanical engineering studies. That's when I did my master of science. And then I followed the path through life that was not kind of like me making choices, but I was kind of like drifting in the wind as things were coming by.
00:24:16
Speaker
And I ended up doing a career of a corporate person, and I was actually having a very successful corporate career. So I was switching from one position to the next, from one company to the next. I was moving from one country to the next, and it was a constantly, let's say, ascending route that I had through all the different jobs and positions I was taking on.
00:24:42
Speaker
So I started from Greece, I went to New York, from New York back to Greece, from Greece to Barcelona, from Barcelona to Singapore. And it was kind of like a crazy ride of becoming a corporate person, surviving in a corporate environment. And the problem was, and it was always there, that I had to force myself into two different versions of me. So I had to be the corporate side of George, okay? And then I had to somehow
00:25:12
Speaker
let's say save or maintain or keep my actual George self for me, like I'm affected, I'm interrupted by whatever corporate life meant. The problem started appearing when you go higher up in the ranks of hierarchy in a company and when that's a huge company with a global footprint,
00:25:39
Speaker
you start losing your ability to maintain control over what you do and what you don't do. I started having moral and ethical issues about the choices I was called upon making every single day when I was like,
00:25:57
Speaker
Typing like a maniac on Excel spreadsheets being a WebEx call like eight times a day working crazy hours being on a plane pretty much Three out of four weeks of a month. I was traveling somewhere to solve out, you know, whatever problems were there There reached the point that I realized that I could no longer maintain those rhythms of life I'll never forget for example
00:26:25
Speaker
The day I realized what the boxes in my Excel spreadsheet actually translated to, because I was handling, I was doing procurement. And my new procurement had nothing to do with my studies, right? I ended up there because I was very good at talking my way through situations. And for example, I'm horrible at writing and I'm horrible at drawing and I'm horrible at sketching, but
00:26:49
Speaker
One very strong point I have is problem solving techniques. I'm really good at solving problems. So you can give me a bucket that's boiling crap in there and bubbling, like really bad stuff, and I will find my way and work through that. And that's what actually pushed me through the steps of hierarchy in different companies I was working for. Anyway.
00:27:09
Speaker
So I was called upon doing... That's a great life skill, by the way. Yeah, I know. But it depends on... It's a great life skill to have, but you have to know which direction you concentrate all those efforts and skills of yours. Because sometimes... Yeah, what to do with it? Yes, what to do with it? Exactly,
Navigating Corporate Challenges and Integrity
00:27:28
Speaker
exactly. So let's say, for example... And that was about a year and a half before I actually resigned and dropped out of it all.
00:27:37
Speaker
One of the targets I was given, so I had a portfolio say X millions of dollars per year you have to manage. And then out of those X millions of dollars, you need to create savings for the company. That's what companies do. You put forward a budget, you decide what's going to be your running cost, you're going to decide on your ROIs, your operating costs, whatever, and then you have to bring savings.
00:27:59
Speaker
And savings usually come to you in the form of a spreadsheet full of targets and you say you gotta save that much money in Singapore and that much money in Mongolia or China or whatever. And you have to find different projects for that.
00:28:15
Speaker
So one of the projects we were doing had to do with headcount reduction. And I just went, okay, X plus Y minus Z, divide by whatever, and I need to reduce my headcount by, I don't know how many people. And I just clicked, entered, put out the spreadsheet, made my presentation, said, that's how we solve the problems. And that's how we hit the targets for this year. And I just gave work to the different country managers and said, guys, go and execute.
00:28:45
Speaker
me being myself of course and saying I was I was always walking on a very thin line between I was never let's say on any side in the company because you know they're like the teams the cosa nostras this the blue cosa nostra the gray cosa nostra the green cosa there's cosa nostras in the company it's kind of like yeah it's cosa nostras absolutely and I was
00:29:09
Speaker
everywhere in every kind of organization. So I had successfully managed to find that very, very thin borderline in between all the Cosa Nostras that I would operate. I didn't belong anywhere. I wasn't part of any of the Cosa Nostras. Like when my time was up, I would just disappear. I didn't want to mingle with those people. I didn't want to have anything to do with them. And I had very good, let's say, business and on a personal level, relationships with a lot of people on the ground, on the field. So one day,
00:29:39
Speaker
Like a few days after I basically launched my saving strategy, I got a phone call. And this guy actually said, hey, George, what's up, whatever. And I'm like, he says, I know already what you're going to do. I know you're going to reduce headcount in X territory in X country. So what I'm asking of you, because he already knew the lists of the names that were going to be laid off. Right. And he said, can you please not lay off these two folks?
00:30:09
Speaker
because one of them had recently gotten a loan, he had a house, the other one, his wife just gave birth to twins, so is there anything you can do about it? And the guy said, these are two of my best men on the job, so please try and figure something out so I can keep those two people. So we talked our way through, and then as soon as I hang up the phone, I had to get out of my desk,
00:30:35
Speaker
get a coffee, get my smokes, and I spent about half an hour downstairs thinking what the boxes in my Excel spreadsheets actually meant. And after I was done with my thinking process, I was not extremely happy with what I was doing.
00:30:55
Speaker
I was actually putting together strategies for, you know, saving money, for example, right? Putting contracts and terms and conditions and whatever that had a direct effect on people's lives. And what really, really bothered me at that moment was that I was doing to them
00:31:12
Speaker
what others had done to me when I was in Spain. Because for example, I spent almost three years in Spain. I was one of the best performing managers in whatever company I was in, in Barcelona for example. One fine day I was fired. Why? Because the company did exactly what I was doing in Asia. They decided they needed very heavy pay cuts.
00:31:32
Speaker
And it doesn't matter whether you're the best employee or the worst employee or whatever. It was the day I realized that all of us in the corporate world are nothing more than serial numbers on HR lists. It's a renewable resource, yes. Yes, it's not renewable, it's expandable. It's very different.
00:31:56
Speaker
it's not cases it's expandable it's expandable right so we're just an HR code with a price tag with a price tag attached to that
00:32:07
Speaker
And I mean, I've been through the absolute paranoia of, oh my God, I lost my job. What am I going to do in Spain? Luckily, an opportunity for Singapore popped up and I just carried on with whatever it was that I was doing. But then, you know, at the back of my head, things were spinning like, George, what are you doing? What's going to happen next time a situation like that knocks on your door?
00:32:30
Speaker
And it was the moment that I realized that despite all the skills that I had attained throughout all of my experiences traveling abroad, migrating because I did. I mean, I left Greece three times already. I lived in Scotland and lived in the United States. I lived there four times, actually. I lived in Spain and Singapore.
00:32:53
Speaker
My collection of skills lacked one very important skill and that was the ability to create my own independent wealth. I knew so many things like so many things that I picked up along the way working for companies and all of that knowledge was extremely useful, right? There was nothing regretful about that. It's just you come to realize one day like
00:33:20
Speaker
What am I gonna do if I get dismissed? Again, it probably won't be my fault either. Someone at a higher level than me is gonna say, how much does this guy cost? Blah, blah, blah, X amount of dollars. Okay, get him out. We can find a cheaper one somewhere in whatever country of the world. And that made me feel, actually didn't make me feel, it made me realize how vulnerable I was in a corporate world.
00:33:45
Speaker
And that was actually, it took me time to manage that, that thought, because it's one thing realizing you have a problem and it's another thing entirely solving that problem completely, right? Yes.
00:33:58
Speaker
So I started working at the back of my head that I had to do something to change it. And all the things that, it was not just the fear of losing your job. It's not just the fear of, oh my God, if I lose my job, I won't be able to do anything besides work for a company. So you will have to be constantly send your CV, ask for like praying to get an interview. It's a very stressful process. And that was an extra, let's say,
00:34:28
Speaker
glass of water in the bucket of, I really don't like what I'm doing with my life.
Confronting Fears and Life's Direction
00:34:34
Speaker
I really, really don't. But I had this fear because I'd never done it before. I had never been, let's say, outside of the corporate world. My entire life, all I knew was being an employee. I had no idea how to do it any other way. But I was too scared to try and break that boundary and alter, let's say, my life.
00:34:59
Speaker
And what happened and then you were not scared? Well, it was a collection of things that happened. Like the defining moment came on a trip. And I was in Myanmar. I was traveling. Yeah, I was actually traveling to go and take pictures of the Fingian festival. It's the New Year celebrations in Myanmar. So it's a huge three-day celebration, people playing with water all over the country. But anyway,
00:35:28
Speaker
I was on a super long train ride from, let's see where I was. I was going from Mandalay to Lake Inlet back then. Oh, it sounds so nice. That sounds like an amazing... I haven't been to Myanmar yet, but it's one of my...
00:35:45
Speaker
Vicky, you're missing out, me and Mar. I mean, I know they have a coup right now, things are a bit, you know, mixed up in me and Mar. But right now, I think if I would think of me and Mar, I would think, you know, like my heart goes out to the people and I hope, really, that they're all... True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True. True.
00:36:06
Speaker
I don't know how to describe it. I can't find the words to describe me. Anyway, we're reading away from the subject. So I was traveling in a train and me being a solo traveler, I usually like nine out of 10 cases I will travel by myself because I always use the time I travel.
00:36:25
Speaker
to filter things out about my life, about myself. I have plenty of time to organize whatever goes on in my head. And I usually use the backdrop of a counter or a destination to do that. And I meet a lot of people along the way as well.
00:36:41
Speaker
There was this guy sitting on the row, well, the wooden benches on the train. And he was sitting across. And though the rest of us were very like talkative and socializing with one another, he just wouldn't mingle with anyone. So after like, I don't know, 12 hours on the train, I couldn't resist the temptation of going over and asking, hey, your bro, what's happening? Because he would spend his entire time over a notebook, writing stuff down.
00:37:11
Speaker
And I'm like, hey, how are you? My name's George. What's happening here? And I'm like, he was actually very polite and talkative. Like the moment I touched base with him, he started interacting with me and I asked him what, what was he writing down? I thought he was actually writing a book and he said, it's with, and he said it with a simplicity. It just blew me away. He's like, it's my list of fears. And I was like, list of what, what, what?
00:37:38
Speaker
Why would you make a list of that? Exactly. Why would you make a list of your fears? And the guy was 23. It's the opposite of a bucket list. Yeah, exactly. It's the opposite of a bucket list. But then again, bear with me, because that was probably the most epic bucket list I ever came across. So the guy...
00:37:57
Speaker
did this. He realized he had a lot of issues with himself. He realized he could not progress through life because there were too many things he was actually afraid of. He was actually petrified of a lot of things and he realized that all those fears he had living inside of him
00:38:10
Speaker
were stalling him, were keeping him down. They were slowing him down. So he dropped out of everything. I remember him explaining how rich his daddy was. I remember him explaining how amazing his degrees were and his CV and the position that he actually resigned from a very good company. I think he was Swedish, the guy, but I can't really remember. So anyway, he was traveling the world for about a year when I met him briefly on the train.
00:38:36
Speaker
and he was spending the best part of those six months taking like noting down all of his fears like everything he could think of from things as simple as I'm afraid of mosquitoes for example to I'm afraid that I don't know I'm gay and my parents are gonna find out and they'll commit suicide like it was like the full spectrum of fears okay everything
00:39:02
Speaker
And as we were discussing with a guy, he went on explaining what his actual strategy was. So he said, okay, I have a problem and I can't really tackle that problem unless I actually visualize it. So it's kind of like seeing how big the elephant was that he actually wanted to eat.
00:39:22
Speaker
And then he categorized his fears into three big buckets. So he had the first bucket that was full of very simple, small, silly, idiotic fears. He would toss them in that bucket. He had the second bucket with intermediate kind of fears.
00:39:37
Speaker
And then the third bucket was the real kahuna of fears, right? Big stuff. I mean, at least for him, there were like big deals. So what he did, he would actually write them on paper and he had the list of the small, the list of intermediate and the list of the big fears. And what he did was facing a small fear first.
00:40:00
Speaker
because that was an easy, low-hanging fruit for him. And the moment he crossed it out of his line, he knew he was one fear stronger towards his ultimate goal. And his ultimate goal was creating a list that had no fears in it, which is kind of like an oxymoron, because the moment you delete all of the old ones, some new are gonna reappear. But still, I was just, I was left speechless by what the guy did. Speechless, I tell you. Because he was like super intelligent. He actually,
00:40:30
Speaker
Visualized like I don't know probably all of his internal problems problems and That was a defining moment for me because the moment I hit my hostel that day I started writing down my own list of fears and I I did exactly what and he was a kid like he was like 2022 I don't he was really young like really young and I was in my mid 30s and I'm like wow this guy's He's wiser than I am right because he has it he figured things out
00:41:01
Speaker
way in advance. So I sat down and did exactly the same thing and I spent quite a few years from that point on battling and organizing and crossing out lines on my personal list of fears. Do you know just what you said quickly? It's like, it's like, sorry, just quickly, it's like, to me, it seems like wisdom is really nothing else than honest self-appraisal because that's what he did and I agree with you. Actually, yes, that's exactly what it is. That's exactly what it is.
00:41:30
Speaker
So I created my own list of fears and I started crossing out one by one and I did exactly what the guy did. Small ones first and then you pick up strength and speed by seeing how easy it is to handle a fear which is like small and easy and insignificant at the end of the day. And then I started dealing with my intermediate fears and then when I reached the really important this is where shit gets real kind of bucket,
00:42:00
Speaker
There was a line left at the end that was my safety offered to me by my corporate life slash salary, right? Because given the position I had... But this was after you crossed everything off the list already. That was the last line. That was the last line and that took me a few years to cross
Burnout and Transition from Corporate Life
00:42:22
Speaker
out. But there came a point
00:42:26
Speaker
that I had no other choice than do it. I couldn't bear living with myself not doing it. I actually brought myself to the point of forcing me so much
00:42:39
Speaker
to maintain that scenario of a corporate life and know George, you can do it. Then I actually completely came crumbling down in pieces. I was burnt out totally. And it took me, it took me some years to recover from that. So you learned from your mistakes along the way. But then again, I never, ever, ever regretted me dropping out of corporate up until this point up today. I have no regrets of being out of the corporate world.
00:43:09
Speaker
It was a defining moment and it was a reliving moment because I no longer had to be a hypocrite. I didn't have to be a hypocrite anymore. I will never forget the last day
00:43:24
Speaker
in my company, so I had the last meeting ever and I had to do it because it was a super important contract, I designed it, I negotiated it, I was running it and I had to do that closing meeting because I had signature authority tier, I handed everything in and walked out of the building.
00:43:43
Speaker
And that was the moment that- How did that feel? How did that feel? What do you mean? How did what feel? When you walked out of that building? Oh, I'll get to that. I'll tell you. And I need to say this so that everyone understands how it felt. I had this customer who came to me and said, you know what? We don't want to do this job anymore. It doesn't make enough money for us. And I said, you know what? Go outside and come back and give me 20% discount and you will keep on doing the same service, offering the same service for the company.
00:44:13
Speaker
And sure enough, they did. And it was the day they were going to present to me their plan of how they were actually going to do it. And I was just sitting there waiting for time to go by and I go, okay, it's my last meeting. I don't have to put up with this anymore. And, but, you know, I had to pay attention to the presentation and stuff. And I was just.
00:44:34
Speaker
So relieved when the guy went through his entire presentation and he said, we'll do X, Y, Z, whatever. But most important of all, we're going to reduce everyone's salary by 20, 30%. And therefore we're going to meet your goals. And I was like, thank you, Lord, for me going through my last day here. And I don't have to sign this contract.
00:44:57
Speaker
I could not, seriously couldn't, I would not be able to sign that contract. So I just said goodbye to everyone, said it's been a pleasure doing business with you, da-di-da-di-da. Okay, next one. That classic night. Yeah, that classic night. And in reality with, though I met a lot of amazing people, I had like, I had some colleagues that up until now, we're in touch and we talk and I love them like brothers, but there were so many people in there that I would, that I had to force myself
00:45:26
Speaker
so much to operate around them and I did not fit so when I walked outside that building it was a huge sigh of relief it was like oh man I just I got out I had no idea where I was going I had I didn't have the faintest clue what I was gonna do with my life
00:45:55
Speaker
I had no clear view of what I actually wanted but I had a crystal clear view of what I did not want and that was a very important first step because
00:46:09
Speaker
It's very important. If you want to know what you want, you gotta know what you don't want. It doesn't work. It's a good starting point. Yes. Yes. True. Yes. Right. Absolutely. It's been one. I think that's a very strong point to make, exactly, instead of just having... But you have to, and some people don't realize, like, oh, I don't know what I want, and I don't know what I want, and like, bro, chill, bro, like...
00:46:32
Speaker
Have a coffee, you know, drink a martini or an Uzo. I think we live more and more in a time where we just feel like everything has to be chiseled out for us, you know, and this is where we want to go and we have to see each other. Yeah, but we have been living in a chiseled out planned world for decades now. I was one of those. I'm a product of that social stereotype that you have to know what you want in life. You're 18 and you have to know what you're going to study. You have to know which university you're going to go to. You have to know whom you're going to marry. You have to know where you're going to live.
00:47:02
Speaker
No, I don't. I really don't have to know any of that stuff. I need time for myself to discover what I actually want. And a lot of us, especially with my generation of people, we were like, I'm surprised how we're not schizophrenic, like all of us in our 40s right now, 2021, because we were born in a world where you were supposed to have one job for the rest of your life,
00:47:27
Speaker
By the time we were 15, yeah, that's how it was, at least for us Greeks, right? You did what you had to do, finish school, army, university, whatever, you found that job, it was the job. And that was the job that would take you through the rest of your life, go become a pensioner and then die, right? That was the plan.
00:47:46
Speaker
Okay. So we were born to that. Then by the time we're 15, that started changing completely. By the time we hit our twenties, it was like, no, no, no, you're going to be getting a new job every 10, 15 years. By the time we were out of the university, no, no, no, no, no, you're going to be getting a new job every five years. And then it's like,
00:48:05
Speaker
you don't even know if you're going to get a job, right? Which someone is going to tell you what the job is. It's like, you know what, guys? No, I had enough of that stuff. I don't want anymore. I want to figure out what I want to do with my life because it's my life and I'll get one of it. So I said, I'm going to leave it anyway. Absolutely. One life. So yes, that was a long story to your question, basically, which I hope I have sufficiently answered. The moment I left the door, the one I walked, I walked outside the building. I just, I literally took a knee.
00:48:36
Speaker
I went for coffee. I had a Sigi. I went to my favorite food court in Tampanese and I had God knows how much roasted chicken rice, which I loved. And then I spent the rest of the day doing nothing at all because I realized that though my old list was gone, I had a brand new one and it already had a fear in there. It was like, what am I going to do?
00:49:06
Speaker
It was a very realistic, what am I going to do thingy? And the only thing I had to go on, the only thing I had to go with in whatever adventure I was embarking on was myself. I had nothing else to count on because I figured
00:49:28
Speaker
If I managed to start from, let's say, a little boy from a small town somewhere in North Greece and did everything I've done so far with my life, why wouldn't or shouldn't I be able to just carry on doing whatever it is that I've been doing?
00:49:48
Speaker
Everything I had was not given to me. Oh, here, George, take this position. Here, George, get this salary. Here, George, get this degree. It was a bloody struggle. It didn't fall into your lap. No, of course it did not fall into my lap. It was an actual struggle. And I was enjoying, let's say, the fruits of those struggles throughout my, especially like the last seven years of my corporate life, it was a joyride.
00:50:19
Speaker
And I was very appreciative of what I was getting in return. But then again, as you progress and evolve through life, you evolve as a person. And then the moment you reach a certain level, you immediate, or at least that's how I am. The moment I hit a milestone in my life, I will enjoy that milestone for a while. And then I will move on to the next one. I have to be having goals ahead of me the whole time.
00:50:50
Speaker
But the problem was with me being in a company was that there were no more goals to be set. I didn't want to carry on.
00:50:56
Speaker
I didn't want to target higher because had I placed another goal and knowing myself when I set a goal, I'll achieve that goal. I'll get there. I don't care how difficult it is. I don't care how complicated my sound. I will find a way and I will get there. I didn't want to go anywhere because I realized I was going to lose myself entirely completely. I could no longer
00:51:20
Speaker
Say, for example, when I resigned, I was a singer-director. I was a step away from becoming a junior VP within the next couple of years. Do you have any idea what decisions junior VPs are called upon taking on their daily lives in a company?
00:51:39
Speaker
I don't, but I can imagine it's a lot more responsibility. It's not an issue. Vicky has hit the nail on the head. It's not the decision, it's the impact that decision has. So I realized I could no longer, whatever little was left of me, the traveling George, the exciting George, the whatever George, whatever little was left was going to vanish because I would no longer
00:52:08
Speaker
walk along those thin lines in between the cosa nostrils, I had to pick a side. And the moment, no, no, no, no, the moment you pick a side, you're no longer a human being.
00:52:19
Speaker
You're not. Is it also the way you're telling it now? Is it also the problem that arises with looking at other people with this level of abstraction? Thank you for saying that. You can no longer have actual human reactions and interactions with people around you.
00:52:41
Speaker
You just don't know who's against you, who's your friend, who's fault. You can never know, right? You can never know. You can never tell. But in looking people around me, do you know what scared me the whole time? There were so many people around me in pretty much any company I worked for. And I've worked for a few in my corporate career.
00:53:03
Speaker
I would look at them and say oh my god is this what i'm gonna turn into after ten years of doing this. Am i gonna be this zombie that's gonna be in front of his laptop the whole time i will try and make up any excuse to spend more time at the office just so as not to be at home with my family.
00:53:20
Speaker
Do you know how many people actually look up, God knows how many excuses to spend as much time as possible to be in their offices so as not to be back home. This is so sad. I just couldn't believe my ears and my eyes.
00:53:35
Speaker
It was so sad. There were so many sad lives around me of people feeling trapped in the corporate world and not being able to do anything about it. I didn't want to be part of that. I just didn't. It would no longer fit.
00:53:53
Speaker
With your experience, do you think that this way of corporate experience, corporate life, does it impact your empathy for other human beings? Do you have to because of this abstraction also? No, you did not. No.
00:54:09
Speaker
It made certain decisions very difficult at points, right? Because I realized that that holds for life in general, right? You can't be Mr. Nice Guy to everyone. You will be run over in no time. That's how life works, okay? Even if you sell fruits in the market, regardless of what you do, you have to know where to set your limits, where to put your foot down. You have to know all that kind of stuff, right?
00:54:38
Speaker
It comes with experience, though, as well. It does come with experience. That is true. Speaking of which, of experience and combining the empathy question, I had to learn how to correctly identify whom to be cool with and whom to be Mr. Nice Guy and whom not to be cool with.
00:55:00
Speaker
But that you can find in any environment. It doesn't have to be a corporate world. It's not this hell on earth kind of thingy. It's not a corporate world. It's a corporate world. You will find a micrography of that in a small family-run business, for example. You will still get that kind of stuff. If not worse, for example. Excuse me.
00:55:24
Speaker
But it was affecting my private life. It was affecting my relationships a lot, right? Because you never, ever, ever stop.
00:55:34
Speaker
Right. Some people say, oh, George, you got all this money and you had a car and you have a laptop and you have a cell phone. But you know what? Having a laptop and a cell phone from a company means you can never say, I'm not going to respond to that email because it popped into my mailbox at 11 p.m. Who's paying for your laptop? Who's paying for your phone? See, there's still the listed on the benefits. It's not a benefit. It's not a benefit. It's an extra change they throw on you. Like it's a big way. Give you the company.
00:56:03
Speaker
Yes, yes, and the company Jim and the company sound and the company house and the company's everything Yeah, the company's you tell me tell me how many how many times people actually have the time to go visit that bloody company Jim Tell me
00:56:15
Speaker
But even when they go to the team, they talk about the company. So these are, of course, systems which are very much rewarded in the broader scale, like huge digital multinational supply these systems. But yes, now what you are describing, I really love this story because you are kind of taking us into a journey of the clash of two very different value systems. The whole process of transformation of oneself
00:56:45
Speaker
from, you know, stepping from one value system to another. And you describe it in very simple terms, like a man's story, you know, someone's story and how he made a decision to actually change entirely his way that his brain works. Because all of these, our brain are used to thinking in a corporate way.
00:57:09
Speaker
In a non-corporate way, we also train our minds. And as far as I know, so far, brains are like repetitiveness, and we sometimes lose control of our own mind. That's not the only problem, Vicky. A very big problem is that you're surrounded. When you're operating, excuse me, when you're forced to operate and actually thrive,
00:57:35
Speaker
in an environment which is completely different to what you are as a personality, as a person, as a character, as a soul. First of all, it's a very frustrating experience because you don't really have a chill out moment. You have to watch every single word that comes out out on your mouth. You have to really think before you talk to anyone because
00:57:58
Speaker
It's like being, I don't know, it's like being a dog in a cat company, right? That's how different I felt. That's how different I felt. For example, I like the analogy. Yeah. Not in terms of aggressiveness, in terms of how different things are, right? Yes, yes. The challenge was, or the frustration would arise on a daily basis of,
00:58:25
Speaker
having to listen to people talk about not necessarily bad stuff or improper stuff. It was irrelevant stuff for me. I couldn't care less about everything that was being spoken and discussed. And you know what was the worst? The worst time of the week was Friday when you had to go. It's a matter of managing human relations within a corporate company. You had to go for drinks with your colleagues. And that was my worst hour of the week.
00:58:52
Speaker
because I had to sit there with a beer. I don't drink beer, but you have to drink beer because that's what everybody does, right? And you have to be politically correct, always.
00:59:02
Speaker
Thank God, now you can drink martini. Yeah, man, I can have martini. So anyway, and you had to you had to mingle with people that were completely different to you. And there's nothing to talk about. It was like, I wouldn't mind going eight hours on business planning strategies, whatever Webex calls, I would not really enjoy that. Right. But it was an absolute torture.
00:59:24
Speaker
going through one hour beer, buddy, colleagues meeting after work. That was my worst hour of the week. And I was avoiding it. They also list that on the benefits. They say it's a company event. Listen, for people who actually are into that, yes, it's probably their best hour of the week. But what I'm saying, it's really important that whatever environment you find yourself in, it's a like-minded environment, right?
00:59:55
Speaker
it's really, really important. Yes, I think this is also where you see what a big role company culture plays in the end and how well it works or how not well it works, how superficial it is. But this is what it's there for, to create some sort of a common identity for everybody who is working actually for one goal only. And that is generally, I believe, is to create revenue for a company, right? I mean, I think
01:00:20
Speaker
as harsh as it sounds and as much as everybody might not say. But we're all here together because we're one big family and we have the same goal. But in the end, at the end of the day, the goal of every company is to make more revenue. That's as simple as that. And there's nothing bad with that. There's nothing bad with that. That's how corporate.
01:00:42
Speaker
In the process of this being made that's where the let's say
01:00:52
Speaker
problems begin. We all have to live somehow. I'll never forget. I was on a smoke break in Barcelona and the company used to work for there. And I had just returned from the trip we did in Ghana, in Cesare, Vicky. Nice. And it was my first day back. Sorry, I have to quickly. You have to give a bit of a background now because otherwise everybody's like, so what happened in Ghana? Just quickly. Why were you in Ghana? It was a voluntary trip.
01:01:23
Speaker
We'll get to that, because being a volunteer was a big part of my life as well. We'll leave it a cliffhanger. Okay. Yes, leave a cliffhanger.
01:01:32
Speaker
So I was, I'm like, I walked in, I had my first tier five, whatever meeting it was, organized the day, organized the week, sorted out everything that I had to sort. And then I went out again, coffee and smokes. That's a huge thing about me, right? In my daily life. And I was having that coffee and see you with a few colleagues of mine and they were talking.
01:01:52
Speaker
And all of a sudden i got lost my thoughts i was stealing i was still in africa there was still a red dust all over my clothes and i was playing with kids and i was taking pictures and blah blah blah i was completely in my own world i was i was not in barcelona i was not in villa franca balpanades at that given moment and this guy touched me on the shoulder and he's like yo jorge
01:02:12
Speaker
He's like, where are you? I'm like, bro, I can't really explain to you what I am right now. And I just turned my head and started looking into the horizon. I was gazing into infinity, literally. And then he started gazing into infinity. And he's like, George, you know what?
01:02:30
Speaker
You don't belong here, man. She's like, your life is out there. And I was like, why did you have to say that now? Why did you have to hit me like that? Like, why? Why? But at that stage, I was still too scared of everything.
01:02:43
Speaker
I had too big of a chain on my shoulder, even the remotely thing of the scenario. George, you can break free now. The guy's right. Your life's out there. It's not here. What the hell are you doing here? But that's a different story. So, yes. No, but it just shows that sometimes we already internally have realized things, but we don't want to consciously process them. That happens all the time, right? And then sometimes,
01:03:11
Speaker
Exactly. And then a guy comes in and he confirms exactly to your face what you already know. And this is a moment where you like... Yeah, exactly. This is a moment where you then can't go like, okay, I can't escape. You know what's the best part about realizing how scared... I'm not gonna use that French word, but anyway, how scared you are. You can use fuck. It's totally fine. Okay, so when you're scared, shouldn't be afraid about it. Oh, even better. Yeah.
01:03:41
Speaker
is when strangers see that in you, it's people you don't know, people who do not know you, so they're not biased about you at all. They will just speak whatever their mind processes of their perception of you.
01:03:57
Speaker
And a guy who barely knew me, I think we just said good morning twice or thrice in the company with him. And he was like, George, you know what, your life's out there, man. And I'm like, why the hell do you have to say that now, man? And it was in so many different occasions. Say, for example, describing how bad, not a bad fit, but I just didn't fit in those environments. I was the only guy wearing Converse shoes in the company.
01:04:24
Speaker
I was the only pair of conversos in that floor, on the 8th floor there were like 130 of us.
01:04:30
Speaker
And every, it was the typical, it was base trousers and black leather shoes and light blue shirts, perhaps a tie if that was like a formal meeting or whatever. And I would just show up with like blue spectacles and I had a hair tattoo before I grew my hair long. And I was the weirdo of the floor. Like who's this guy? That's the Greek, that's the procurement director over there. That's the Greek guy, that's George. You got a problem?
01:04:55
Speaker
You've got a problem, she's going to fix it. She's weird, but she's going to fix it, right? Just bear with him, right? He's the weirdo of the company. I love your blue glasses, by the way. Oh, no, they're green, right? Well, now they look kind of greenish because of the lights. But anyway, yes, I love my blue glasses as well. And I guess it takes a bit of time to realize
01:05:21
Speaker
And only today I was involved in a conversation with someone, quite a special someone, I bought a quote and I had to recite Martin Luther King who said at one of his speeches that
01:05:36
Speaker
One day, fear knocked on the door and then kurats got up and opened the door and realized there was no one there. I just love that quote because it's true. It's one of the best descriptions you can have about what fear is. It's nothing.
01:05:54
Speaker
It's a plume of smoke. It doesn't really exist. It only exists in our brains because we bring up that wall of fears inside of us and we're the ones who have the power to just go and blow it away and down it goes. It just takes time to realize that, unfortunately, I'd say. It took me a lot of time.
01:06:17
Speaker
Feels like a mirage, if you will. Absolutely. But it is, but you know what? It's a powerful mirage. It is a powerful mirage, actually. But that's why I found that guy so special on the train and so wise. I don't remember his name. Even if I meet him now, I won't remember his face exactly. But he's a guy who actually changed my life completely.
01:06:41
Speaker
that person over there. Yes, I think it's okay also not to have, I also have some moments in my life that I can't really visualize in full detail, but I know that they've been life changing. And I think they fulfilled their purpose in this dimension, that they become what they become, not because they are specific, but because they have to do with long term values that we have, like some dreams we have and all of that.
01:07:07
Speaker
And all of that. But... But dreams are beautiful to have, Vicky. You need dreams. You can't go on without dreams. Yes, of course. Not just one. You need dreams. A lot of them. Like hopes. But yes, it is this way of life that you are describing that is very materialistic. We forget to deal with the other energies in our lives.
01:07:27
Speaker
However, you call them if their energies or dimensions or whatever, it has to do with our psyche, with our internal world, or with, anyway, nature, which we are not exactly separate. That's another conversation.
01:07:42
Speaker
Yes for sure and I believe travel does that to us and I have to just make one comment to what you said that it takes time to realize these things and yes but what is really time I mean look at that there are so many different journeys out there how can you say that this time is short and that time is longer you know we have a beautiful life now that we live you never know how long your life is going to be so
01:08:07
Speaker
Thanks very much for the special... And think about it, the way I think about it, in life it is an always changing process, even the cells of our body do not remain the same, so why should we? So I think it's a constant journey of non-arrival and the point... Yes, that's true. It's like Ithaca, it's about all this process and changing and all of that... It's a great poem, bye, sorry, just for everything.
01:08:37
Speaker
Yes, and you know what and I really like the way that you just told the story right now because it's a reality a lot of us have shared one way or another to different extents, of course, but it is something that we all know this discomfort of being into a society which exactly is not meant for you and to be honest, it doesn't have to be because
01:09:01
Speaker
One society cannot feel everybody's needs. You have to also create your own spring, as I say, and try to make the choices that resonate more with your mind than with what your soul wants. And I think that's a beautiful part of the journey. That's exactly what you described right now. Correct. There's no destination. It's kind of like the never-ending story. It never ends. It just goes on and on and on and on. Totally.
01:09:30
Speaker
We want to think, yes, we want to think that there is a resting place, that there is a place where happiness will be, and there I won't move anymore. Do we really believe that? I mean, looking at ourselves, that we will stand still on that situation, which looks peaceful. But listen, don't say that because there are actually people out there who believe that, who actually want the destination, who want happiness. Yes, no, I love that.
01:09:59
Speaker
I love that and I have absolutely big respect for that. And this is what I'm saying, all paths are different. But even when you arrive to that state, there is always change happening regardless, even if you are standing still, even if you have found, for example, your significant other and you are not looking anymore.
01:10:16
Speaker
Still, there is a change in this relationship in you. So this is what I'm saying. At some point, we never arrive to some destination. I think the destination is the motivation to just keep on going. That's why the poem says, pray that your journey is a long one, full of adventure, full of discovery, right? Exactly, exactly, exactly. And which was, you know, everything flows, tapa, dari.
01:10:41
Speaker
But also this poem has a reference to what George said before about fear knocking on the door and courage getting up to get... It doesn't just have a reference. It's about what you do with your fears. Not just in that poem. Actually, if you come to think about it, there's so much wisdom.
01:11:00
Speaker
in so many places and people and literature and songs, all around us, all we have to do is open our eyes and our ears and be, let's say, have a feeling of acceptance for whatever information. Everything's up there. Everything's just around us. All we have to do is stretch our hands and reach out for the answers and the solutions to whatever problem it is that we're having. It's right in front of us. So Ithaca has helped me a lot.
01:11:29
Speaker
Like I have spent God knows how many hours listening to that saying, okay, the Cyclops and Lestrigonians and whatever, I am the one who raises them in front of my soul. And that's why that's why that's why Kavava says you will never encounter them on your trip unless
01:11:50
Speaker
You know, you bring them unless you call for them. Unless your mind sets them in front of you. Yes, of course. Unless you call for Poseidon. Poseidon is as if he cares, right? He's just sitting there down at the bottom of the ocean having fun with the mermaids and all the chicks and stuff. Who the hell cares? And then you call him out and he's like, oh, George is scared again. I got up here above the waves and be all scared.
01:12:12
Speaker
But it's true. And then by looking at ways of battling or dealing with fear, I bumped into another YouTube video where Will Smith describes the French priest of Bel Air, right? He described his first experience of jumping off a plane. And you know, he goes blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And at the end of it, he says, guys, life has placed everything that's beautiful one step behind our greatest fears.
01:12:42
Speaker
And it was so wise because you have to go in and confront that fear face on, face to face, head on. And then you realize, damn, that was it. That was nothing. Right. And I actually did what he did. I went and jumped off a plane to battle my fear of heights and my acrophobia. And you know what? It worked. It worked. You get on 14,000 feet being one version of yourself. And then about a minute, 45 seconds later, you land.
01:13:10
Speaker
And that's all it took. One minute, 45 seconds to become a better version of your own self. It's amazing. I saw that video. I saw that video of you. I saw the footage of you landing in the video you made. That was a highlight. That was a high point in my life. There was such a rush of adrenaline. It was rushing through my veins, through my entire body. And it wasn't the thrill of the fall. It was the thrill that
01:13:39
Speaker
I actually dared jump off a plane. And when I say I was scared of heights, I would become like petrified. Like if you like brought me at the edge of a cliff, I couldn't move. Someone had to come and grab me by the shoulders and drag me to the side for me to start moving again. It was that bad because I had fear of heights.
01:14:01
Speaker
and acrophobia. Acrophobia, I have myself too. I can't be, but I'm working on it. So no, here's the trick now. I no longer have acrophobia. I have fear of heights still. So I guess if I jump off a plane a few more times, I'll be cool. But the feeling of it was... Jumping without a... No, no, no, bro. Don't even get there.
01:14:28
Speaker
That is actually one thought that never crossed my mind. I love life in general too much, for even the immortal thing. That's very good. That's very good. Because that means you'll be careful with it as well. Yeah, I will.
01:14:45
Speaker
Like looking back at it all, all the problems, everything arises from the fact that we're scared of stuff we shouldn't be, right? Absolutely. I mean, just go and try it out because you never know unless you try it out. How do you know? I think what you take away from this really just that, you know, facing your own fears is a very powerful thing and that generally when you do it, you have
01:15:11
Speaker
definitely a more positive outcome than you would imagine. I firmly believe that we all must push ourselves outside our comfort zones from time to time because that's the only way you get growth. If you keep on repeating the same stuff over and over and over again, you're doing the same stuff. But the moment you say, hey, let's go see what's on the other side of the fence,
01:15:30
Speaker
That's when you have to learn the skills of, for example, other side of the fence, I need to find a way to jump the fence. So if you have never jumped the fence, there you go. That's a new skill. You know how to jump the fence. That's a very simplistic example, but that's how it works.
01:15:49
Speaker
But that's absolutely essential. I agree with you entirely. It's absolutely essential to also move the boundaries that you have, know them, but also be able to maybe push them a little further. That's also something. So how is it like on the other side of the fence, George?
01:16:06
Speaker
Yes, that's a fantastic transition. So what happened when you climbed over that fence? It is extremely difficult. It's been three years plus and I'm still trying to get a firm foot down on whatever it is I'm trying to do. I got so close to it all but then again COVID happened and it's just
01:16:29
Speaker
mind. Everything I had planned came, you know, crumbling down in ruins. And that was the most difficult part. What did you have planned, if I may ask, if I may be so bold? You, you may be bolder than that, actually. So what I figured was, okay, I knew I was burnt out, like I was clinically burnt out. I was like, I went to the doctor said, George,
01:16:53
Speaker
You're so bad, I'm not really sure how much time is going to take you to recover from how much you've messed up yourself. And he says... Just quickly, sorry, chronologically. So from the moment you stepped out of the office building, right? We're still kind of there. Where are we now? Where have we moved now? Is this right after this, your burnout, or is this something more recent? No, no, no. The burnout happened while I was at my last corporate job. It happened in Singapore. It was a combination of
01:17:23
Speaker
All that mess, it was like promotion after promotion and tasks after tasks. And it was like, I was going through like, I had no personal life. I was traveling the whole time. I was working nonstop. It was an endless ordeal, so to speak. And that came combined with a huge breakup ahead in Singapore, which basically, that was my driving force through all that.
01:17:47
Speaker
Because I actually had made a conscious choice of saying, okay, two years before I left Singapore, I said, no, no, I'm going to live now. So instead of living in 2017, I figured, no, by 2015, I'm not cut for this shit. I need to go out. Then I met someone, you know, you fall in love, you know how it works. So I chose to stay to be with whoever I wanted to be back then.
01:18:10
Speaker
That was my driving force that kept me alive for all the crap. And when I no longer had that, all of a sudden I ran out of steam completely. And I'm like, what the heck am I doing here? But it was too late. And also what brought the burnout was that up until that point, up until 2017, I was yet
01:18:34
Speaker
to discover my limits as a person i couldn't find limits in myself up to that point there was nothing that life has thrown at me and i had not.
01:18:46
Speaker
and spat it out and moved on, nothing. And it ranged from dengue fever to absolute poverty to having to survive in societies and cultures where everything was so different and distant from what I was used to. And I had like, for example, three or six months to do that.
01:19:07
Speaker
get used to being away from your family, away from your friends, away from your country, surviving in environments and situations. You had no manual of what to do. You had to improvise along the way. And I had successfully done that. So that was my, let's say, arsenal of skills that I knew I had to progress through it all.
01:19:28
Speaker
And when the combination of being overworked, overstressed, over frustrated and heartbroken all coincided, I'm like, oh, here's my limit line. You know what the problem was? My limit line was 10 feet behind me. I had already crossed it. And then I'm like, I was kind of like, I was kind of like the coyote that was running after the road runner in a cloud and then the cloud vanishes and she's all of a sudden on top of a canyon and he starts falling. That was me.
01:19:58
Speaker
Right? And it just fell.
Revitalizing Life through Hands-on Creativity
01:20:01
Speaker
And when I hit the ground, it was a really, really bad hit. Right? And so what I did was I left Singapore and I screwed all, dump everything, drop everything, just go back home, rest, recuperate, reorganize, and just spend time doing stuff you love. No more musts, no more whatever.
01:20:26
Speaker
Only once, nothing else. So I came back to Greece. I bought the flat that I'm in right now with my savings, whatever I had. I turned that into a year and a half if you can believe that project of turning. It's a 1957 flat in the center of the Saloniki.
01:20:46
Speaker
And I decided not just to renovate the place for me to live in, I was actually going to restore it and bring it back to its original glory it had when the first owners walked in in 1957. So I started making a time capsule project of it and I did everything with my two bare hands. A lot of help from my brother, of course.
01:21:07
Speaker
But it's not a museum, all the radio's work, all the record player's work, they're from like 58 or 57 or whatever, my refrigerator, my stove, my washing machine, all the furniture, the decoration, and all of those things took crazy amounts of time to complete and restore and trace and source and bring here.
01:21:30
Speaker
It was a year and a half of hands-on, manual, creative work, because I realized I had spent 13 years in companies pushing keys on a keyboard, and I had this incredible lust inside of me to do creative stuff.
01:21:46
Speaker
to paint, to draw, to design, to repair, to upcycle, to do whatever. Because those were hobbies that towards the end of my career, I didn't have time for. So I was completely deprived. My creative side was screaming inside of me. So my plan was I was going to do that.
01:22:04
Speaker
I'm going to turn that into an Airbnb apartment. So whenever I would have customers, I would move over to my brother who just lives like two blocks away from here. And that's how I was going to make my first money till... So that was going to be my first line of revenue. Because of course I made a plan with a procurement guy, right? I was handling budgets and finances and stuff. So I had a plan. So I'm like, okay, that's fine. It can be helpful. Actually, trust me, my experience
01:22:33
Speaker
through corporate has been not just helpful, it has been valuable, right? Because I've attained skills that, you know, everyday people don't really have. But anyway, so my plan was I was actually going to have the flat operating as an Airbnb. And I'll do that for a year, full speed, like full on. And that would give me the time to organize my photography job exactly the way I wanted to.
01:23:01
Speaker
And it actually started so, so well. Yeah, go ahead. Ask the question. You burst if you don't. This is the advantage of the video interview. All the disadvantage. I mean, you know, I mean, who you have to judge at the end. No, I just wanted to know because because you said photography now and I was wondering, you know, when you left that building after you quit the job and you cross that off your fear list, basically.
01:23:31
Speaker
Photography was something that you were passionate about before and did you contemplate it right then as well maybe as a possibility of spending your time of your life that you was lying ahead of you yes the plan was that photography right.
01:23:46
Speaker
Photography came in my life in 2008 exactly the way I describe it on my profile. It was supposed to be a one-night stand. I had this breakup with a girl that was dating in New York back then, whatever. And then when you try to recover from a breakup, you go for the first creative thing that comes your way. And I was just walking down the promenade of the Saloniki.
01:24:10
Speaker
and i saw this poster saying photography lessons whatever at the ymca here so i took classes for a month and i was i was i was taught how to develop film back then right 2008 so digital was still kind of like entering the market but was there but wasn't exactly there when there was still a lot of film guys out there and i was one of them
01:24:34
Speaker
And I fell in love with it, guys.
Kenyan Volunteer Experience and Personal Growth
01:24:36
Speaker
I had this dark room set up in my house. And the moment I developed my first film, and then I went on printing my first picture, I'm like, ah, I love this. So I started spending more time with it. It was just a hobby back then. It was not supposed to be like a profession, so to speak. And I was doing a bit of street photography here and there, but nothing, ooh, ha, wow. It was just a good companion.
01:25:02
Speaker
Because I guess I'm a bit of a solitary fellow most of the time. Then I started taking my camera with me on my trips, because it was my travel buddy as well. And one thing led to the other. And then I started taking pictures. And I'm like, hmm, that's kind of a cool picture I just took. And people started seeing my shots. And I'm like, hey, George, that's some really nice shots, man, like really nice shots.
01:25:29
Speaker
So I started believing a bit more, but still it was a hobby. And then I started meeting people along the way, and Vicky was one of them, when we met in Kenya. Actually, that trip in Kenya, the first real shots, my first travel photography shots, I took in 2010 in Kenya, in the Cool Hero project.
01:25:53
Speaker
Are we gonna have it another cliffhanger? Are we gonna talk about the project? No, it's very simple. You have to ask the question.
01:26:03
Speaker
And I will tell you. So what happened in Kenya? What happened in Kenya? Just quickly, so that we get everybody on board. Like, what were you doing? I'm preparing you. There's nothing quick about the questions you're asking about me, right? I had a feeling. I had a feeling about that. It's complicated. The quickly thing you can forget.
01:26:24
Speaker
It was 2010. It was right before I left. I moved out of Greece and my plan was to move to Spain. I had already found a job there. I was super excited about it. And I wanted to do one last thing. That would be fun before I moved to Spain. So I was part of an NGO. I was supporting an NGO back then.
01:26:47
Speaker
And they actually sent an email and they said, Hey guys, to all our supporters, we're actually thinking of doing our first ever voluntary trip in Africa. Do you care to join? I didn't even think I just went boom. Yes. Without thinking twice about it. Right. So there was a few, like two months later, landing in Mombasa airport.
01:27:12
Speaker
And going there to support or to run a project, a micro economy project to support a group of people that were stigmatized because of their HIV status, which is it bears a social stigma, not just in Kenya and a lot of countries. So the plan was to go there and do something to help them out.
01:27:34
Speaker
Add to have a better quality of life so there was like an agricultural side to the project we're gonna donate land to them and help them like you know grow vegetables so they could sell those and create income because the plan was they could even afford to go get their pills from whatever the government was giving them free pills for hiv so what the project was to try and
01:27:57
Speaker
create a sustainable micro-economy project for those people to become self-sustained, so to speak, financially.
01:28:07
Speaker
Yes, to say here that Lagobaya was a very, let's say, quite isolated community. So imagine it has dirt roads. It's not easy to access. At that area, there is not developed public transportation people. Not all of them have their own vehicles. They rely heavily on bikes, which, of course, they can cover some distance, but you can't go everywhere on a bike. And apart from that, they also have to
01:28:37
Speaker
put up with stigma, as George says, which means that they're even more reluctant or not able to have access to what society around them can offer, even if they would like to. So yes, that project is exactly what George described.
01:28:53
Speaker
It was about an irrigation system and anyway setting up, let's say, a foundation so that through the years they can develop some form of independence to have some crops, to have some financial activity so that they don't depend so much on
01:29:12
Speaker
resources which are not available. And this is where you met, of course. Yes, it was part of that voluntary trip. And that's where we first met when George came along to this trip. It was a group of 40 people from Greece and Cyprus, if I remember well. And yes, so it was the first trip of that organization.
01:29:37
Speaker
ever. And also one of the first trips that Action Aid Kenya had ever had ever done. But it was a very, very, let's say, important experience, I think, for the most of us who were part of it. And not just because it was the first time, but because George will explain why it was an important, let's say, journey to make. It was that was a life changing experience for me up until that point.
01:30:08
Speaker
I don't know how to best describe it is it gave me a window. I think I'm getting a bit emotional now, right? It gave me a window. No, I'm seriously getting a bit emotional.
01:30:29
Speaker
At the end of it, I'll start in an opposite way. I'll start in an opposite way. That trip, that week in Kenya, in Langobaya, which, mind you, last time I checked Langobaya on Google Maps, I couldn't find it. That was one year ago. I still couldn't find Langobaya. It's been 10 years since we were there. It's one thing looking at images of Africa from the comfort of your couch with the aircon on, pizza,
01:30:58
Speaker
refreshments, I don't know what, close your fancy car in your front yard or God knows what. And then you all of a sudden get on a plane. I'll never forget that feeling. Never. I caught my flight from Amsterdam Cipol Airport. And I ended up in Mombasa and from Mombasa we flew to Malindi. That airport in Malindi was, I'm like, where's the airport?
01:31:27
Speaker
It was a small building, one airstrip, and everything was happening in a room. So customs like boarding, departures, arrivals, everything was handled in one room, right? Minimalism. Yeah, minimalism. I love it. Then you get off the bus and all of a sudden, the image you had from your flat bed screen, whatever, millions, pixels, whatever,
01:31:56
Speaker
It actually has a smell. That's the first thing that hits you. That image smells. And depending where you are, it smells really well or it smells really bad. Poverty smells. All of a sudden, you get more senses. It's not just your hearing and your sight.
01:32:20
Speaker
that creates feelings out of experiences of what you're seeing. You can feel it because people touch you and you touch them. You can feel how rough their skin is. You can see their feet. It's an explosion of information right in front of your eyes.
01:32:42
Speaker
hits you with the realization of this is what I've been watching on, I don't know, a documentary or Netflix, for example, or National Geographic or BBC, whatever, right? That's what it feels being there. Insects, for example, monkeys all over the place, unbelievable traffic, shit that you could never thought existed on this planet, or
01:33:04
Speaker
And then you actually start interacting with people, like the people of Kenya, the people of Ghana, the people of Malawi, whichever country you go, not just in Africa, any part of the world that you've never been to before, any part of the world.
01:33:19
Speaker
And you hear them talk and laugh and dance. And like one of the first things that actually I could not believe I was experiencing was I was in Langobaya. When I say in the middle of nowhere, it was the middle of bloody nowhere. There was nothing there. Nothing, absolutely nothing. People were so poor at that part of Kenya that
01:33:47
Speaker
There were guys that were wearing one t-shirt because that was the only t-shirt they had. They had one t-shirt. It was full of holes. God knows what, right? They had one piece of clothing with them. When we walked into the settlement, like the small village of the group,
01:34:14
Speaker
They had decorated everything and they were dressed up and they were dancing to welcome us. And they had strips of fabric on the ceilings of their houses. Yes, and the wires. On the wires. And as they were dancing, I realized that those people that only had one item of clothing to them had actually cut a strip out of their skirts and their shirts and their pants
01:34:43
Speaker
to use it as decoration on a piece of wire for us that showed up to help them. That was not just a slap on your face. That was a punch in the gut.
01:35:01
Speaker
those were people that were like, for example, and it makes you like, you rewire and reset your entire universe theory and what life is all about. When you mingle and interact with people who live in an environment completely different to yours. Because we live in a part of the universe, and they live in a part of the universe, right? For example,
01:35:26
Speaker
I could not understand how the hell those people laughed and smiled and danced the way they did. They would get on a good day three meals of ugali, which is corn flour boiled with water, and that's it. You should see them dance. You should see them crack jokes.
01:35:50
Speaker
It's unbelievable. And we, like the developed nations, right, get depressed over Netflix, not connecting. For example, you make some realization. Yeah, it's a completely different set of priorities. Like what, what, what, what? You're like, I couldn't sleep. I was there for a week. It was difficult to sleep. It was very difficult to sleep because all of a sudden you realize that
01:36:18
Speaker
You live in a world that I was I was questioning if my life was the real life and theirs was not or was it vice versa? That's the real life and I'm living like in a bubble like what's the story there? What I just want to say I think that this is
01:36:44
Speaker
This also makes me quite emotional because first of all, I believe it's... You have a similar experience. No, yes, I mean, I obviously have spent time in Africa as well and it's part of my very personal history and nonetheless, I also know that I experienced Africa as a white guy and that has its limitations in itself, right? Correct. So even though I live there,
01:37:09
Speaker
It has a lot of limitations. The problem with Africa a lot of the time is that because of our own reality, and like you just described it as well as being white guys living a privileged life in that sense, and knowing it no different,
01:37:27
Speaker
We see Africa a lot of the times as like this example of how you can live with less or how they can still have the spirit and all of that despite the hardship of their lives. There's a problem in that though as well that we will in that sense also very easily stigmatize Africa in that sense.
01:37:52
Speaker
and positively and also positively discriminate Africa in that sense. And it doesn't empower us in a way to, though
01:38:08
Speaker
It doesn't empower us to improve anything, though. It's just a fleeting look at Africa, and then we're on our way again, right? It doesn't solve any... No, I don't entirely agree to that. I don't entirely agree to that, to be very honest. That's good, so that's why this is a conversation. I also don't know... And I will tell you why.
01:38:30
Speaker
Africa, for my part, at least, I feel very likely that my first ever experience, both of Africa and of Asia. Sorry, just quickly, just quickly, because Africa is also obviously a huge continent, so we shouldn't talk about Africa in general in that sense. But I started that, though, to be in all honesty. Good point. Yes, good point. So the different countries that make up Africa, yes.
01:38:57
Speaker
What I'm trying to say is that I'm really happy I didn't visit, you can say, Africa, but I was in Kenya, right? That my first ever experience of an African country, of Kenya, which was a dream destination, for example, for me, from when I was a kid, was not like a tourist. I did not go there as a tourist. I went there as someone who wanted or thought that could bring change.
01:39:23
Speaker
to the world, the specific society, to whatever you may want to call it. And not being locked up in a hotel, but being out in the field mingling with locals with like, we were like, you know, cultivating fields and installing like water pumps and building stuff and pouring concrete. And I can still remember the word for water was Maji. The guys were calling for Maji, Maji, which was water, right?
01:39:49
Speaker
I learned so many things in seven days that I don't think a year in university is going to bridge that gap of how much stuff you learn when you expose yourself to realities of the world. I'll never forget how touched I felt and that was my first tattoo actually. I never thought up until the point I would actually get a tattoo in my life, ever.
01:40:13
Speaker
Look at you now. I got three. Now I got three. I got three. Big ones. Yeah. And people ask me, why do you have this flag of Kenny on your shoulder and what's written there? So on the last day, the guys from the community, the cool hero is what they call which means hope.
01:40:38
Speaker
They wanted to give us something in return, right? They wanted to give us a present, but they were so poor, all of them. I mean, they bought some really basic souvenirs and stuff, but that's all they could afford. So what they did was they called up the... He was the wizard of the tribe, right? Who was observing us throughout the week. And that wizard was socially and culturally burdened with
01:41:05
Speaker
Privilege so to speak of Christian and all the children that were born into that community and he would christen them a name Based on I don't know whatever he thought he would so he was walking around the group and he was observing all of us And on the last day they're present to us was to christen us with a swahili name based on Based based on what we did best During that week that we were there
01:41:34
Speaker
And my name was Bisibora from them because I was the guy, that means it's the master chef of the village, the guy who cooks anyway. Because I asked them the second day to go and work with the women of the village because they were like far out outside of the community because you know women are in a
01:41:55
Speaker
in a difficult position still in a lot of countries. So I said, no, no, no, I want to go work with them. And the men were like, what? You know, you're going to work with the ladies. Are you going to clean potatoes and rice? And I'm like, yeah, I want to do that. I want to work with the ladies. So it went so well that I spent three days in the kitchen cooking, right? And that's how I got my nickname there, the NBC Potter. And as soon as I got back, I actually tattooed that on my shoulder because I wanted to be able
01:42:24
Speaker
to recollect every single moment from that trip, which I still do to this day, almost 11 years later, every time I look myself in the mirror. I don't ever want to forget that experience. That was not a trip. That was an experience.
01:42:41
Speaker
No, can I, can I beat you? Yes. Yes. You can't be a whatever. You can't be a douchebag and interrupt me again. I got that. I got that. I live with that. I live with that. You're totally right.
01:42:59
Speaker
Well, you started the you can be a real big it can be a real stick I thought you were gonna say jerk because you started with a J and you just cut it short there But no, yes, I'll just put it a blank. I'll just put it a blank and everybody can fill in whatever they want I know the only thing that I want I want to make sure that that's also clear I I absolutely absolutely understand what you're saying and and with everything I've said I
01:43:24
Speaker
I also understand there is so much value in visiting Africa in so many ways. And I know the intention of your trip because I know you were there with Vicky and I know Vicky's intentions. And so for me, there is no question, right? There was never a question of your intentions. Okay, me and George, I think we have the same feelings. Okay, of course, apparently on a personal level, but generally, yes.
01:43:51
Speaker
No, but I understand the trip that shares the same intentions to one place. I think... Can I just quickly finish what I wanted to say? Sorry. Because you lived in South Africa. That's why you are saying that. I have an idea of South Africa.
01:44:07
Speaker
So because I have an idea of South Africa doesn't mean that I have an idea for the whole of Africa, first of all. And I don't even think I have an exceptional idea of South Africa because like I said, I lived in South Africa as a white guy, which is a very big difference because I was living in a house that was fenced in from the rest because I was white and I could afford that, right? Very different experience to growing up in a township in South Africa, which I have absolutely no idea what that reality looks like. I had visited
01:44:37
Speaker
Yes, I mean, I have visited townships, I've been there, but I've always been there as an outsider, as a visitor, and that's not the same as living there, right? So the only reason why I'm saying these things is because South Africa has given me a large degree of my
01:44:54
Speaker
of my emotional and my personal integrity, I believe, to some degree. And it is my formative years. It was my formative years. I grew up there, basically. And the only thing is that I think when we look in from the outside as Europeans or as, you know, lands of the north or developed countries, whatever you want to call it,
01:45:18
Speaker
There is a tendency that we define Africa by its poverty. And this is the only thing that I wanted to say. I'm not saying that you are doing this, but this is a thing that is done a lot of times. A lot of times people define Africa by its poverty. And when we do this,
01:45:35
Speaker
We forget that Africa, and I'm saying Africa in its entirety now, even though I know how flawed this is, as an idea, as a content like we describe Europe as well, I'm just saying this is a mistake that we make all the time because by doing that we forget that all Africans
01:45:57
Speaker
They are not just poor. They are amazing people. Of course not. They make great music. They have so much... Oh, don't tell me about African music. I just love their music. I love African music. I will never give up. Absolutely. I think that is exactly the differentiating points in what George describes in this experience. Absolutely. That it's not the quick idea that you have as a tourist. It is a different experience. It's a bit intermediate. Of course, okay, you don't live there all your life. I'll tell you this.
01:46:24
Speaker
You have an immersion into one community for some time. And that time, for some people, if they are in the right state of mind and they are open and they take this information in and this experience seems, can't be life-changing. And just like every...
01:46:45
Speaker
experience that we have through travel, not just in Africa, it could be anywhere. And I think that's the magic of it too. But I agree with you sometimes we have ideas and that is what I love travel about. It breaks down stereotypes, like the stereotype that Africa is related to poverty and that's it. Okay, that's a fact, but that's one fact. There are so many other facts related to it.
01:47:10
Speaker
There's such cultural abundance. Exactly. And a lot of the times, this is taking a very far second when we talk of Africa and thinking of it as being poor. And you know what, social media is doing the great work about that because Africans themselves, first of all, can depict their own image as they like.
01:47:29
Speaker
And the second of all is that there are so many people traveling who share their experiences. So you don't just have the magazine which you read. You don't just have the documentary that you see. You have a known experience expressed through video, through photography. And yes, which brings me, I really want to talk about what's coming next because speaking about travel and how it opens up your horizon, your mental horizons and your
01:47:55
Speaker
Let's say opens up yourself into a new world every time. Georgie is planning a beautiful trip, which I really want to know more about. I don't know how...
01:48:10
Speaker
How is that going to happen? A part of George tells us a little bit about jumping from Kenya into some intermediate stops maybe to lead us to what you're planning next because really I'm a curious person, I'm not very patient. I've seen some trailers, I've seen everything. The reason why I started with the Kenyan experience is because I asked a lot of times about it as well. Besides that,
01:48:40
Speaker
That was the trip and that experience actually opened my Pandora's box in a sense of how to travel. Ever since Kenya, for example, I can't remember myself going visiting a country for tourism.
01:48:59
Speaker
That's why, for example, I choose to travel alone because I want to go explore. That's why, for example, I don't go to hotels. It's been like, I mean, excluding my business with companies, whatever, that I was staying in hotels. Every time I packed the backpack and switched my phone off and vanished into a country, I was always, always looking for
01:49:21
Speaker
It's people, it's culture, it's music, it's food, it's coffee, it's tobacco, it's traditions. Regardless of whether it wasn't Malawi or Kenya or Ghana or Philippines or Burma or whatever.
01:49:34
Speaker
It opens a completely new world for me. What opened that window to a new world were the people I would meet along the way. They are people of different nations, different cultures, different religions, different backgrounds.
01:49:52
Speaker
All of them, every single person I've met along the way, from the ones that we ended up being, I don't know, whatever, friends, lovers along the way, sex buddies, to like, I bought oranges from someone and moved on or stopped at a restaurant in Warung, in Nusa Penida in Indonesia, for example, and had lunch and moved on. Every single person has played his or her role in me being who I am today.
01:50:20
Speaker
And that became kind of like a drug. I can't travel any other way anymore. I just can't. Like you can't just throw a cruise ship in my face. Hey George, look at all the fun you got to have. I'm like, can you please give me a moped and like,
01:50:35
Speaker
It depends on the cruise ship. It depends because, for example, there are cruise ships in Manaus, in Brazil, where you travel on your hammock. You know, they are designated hammock places. You have your hammock and you have your stuff right underneath your hammock because that is the only space you can occupy, my friend. And that can get tight. So it depends on the cruise ship. Okay, it depends on the cruise ship.
01:50:59
Speaker
Play me, play me, play me. But no, I get your point. The crucifix is a symbol of mainstream... Yeah, so I can't do mainstream. I just can't. There are so many experiences.
01:51:14
Speaker
There's so many experiences out there. I don't like being locked up in a ship, for example. I mean, I've even tried it as a diver. I can't. I can't do a live on board. It's a matter of personal taste or liking, so it's a preference. It doesn't work for me, right?
01:51:32
Speaker
What really gets my traveling juices going is the potential of being at the right spot at the right time and interact with people that are actually going to help me.
01:51:46
Speaker
become a slightly better version of who I am today. And actually, by traveling, you understand so much stuff about people around you. Say, for example, music can be a common thing. And people say, how does music relate to that? But let me tell you this. After you introduced me, for example, in Ghana to Lucky to Bear, when I went to Malawi five years later, and I was playing Lucky to Bear,
01:52:14
Speaker
on the field. But let me tell you this. He's from South Africa. I know. I immediately had a very important connection point with people from Malawi. I knew who Ali Farkature was, for example. I knew Asawade. I knew so many artists already of African music.
01:52:37
Speaker
With me being in love with African music, I was so obsessed with listening to it that I immediately had a connection point with a culture that was totally strange to mine, like strange, different, right? And there's beauty in that, for example. Take Greeks, for example, and I don't know, Bulgarians. There are traditional folk songs that the only difference in between them is the lyrics.
01:53:02
Speaker
We have identical dances and songs, right? Especially in the northern Greece. Traveling, for example, made me understand how many things that are out there
01:53:16
Speaker
that can bring us together as nations, as people. That we share in common. That we share in common. Greeks and Turks, for example. Absolutely. You can bring any example you want. There's so many things out there to bring us together. And when you travel and you expose yourself to all of those experiences, you kind of realize that the world is not that distant, hostile,
01:53:41
Speaker
collection of countries as, I don't know, news or media might want you to believe. It's not. There's so much coolness and goodness and awesomeness out there. And traveling really helps that, and that's how the next plan comes
Introducing Bob: A Travel Companion
01:53:56
Speaker
into play. I miss that. I want to experience more of that. There are so many parts of the world that I want to visit, and I realize that I've been all over the place.
01:54:08
Speaker
topics, Asia, Africa, whatever. I haven't seen anything of Europe. I've seen very little of what's going on next door, because I always had this silly, stupid impression that, nah, Europe's next door. I can go at a time I want easy, peasy, man. Yeah, man, you never do.
01:54:27
Speaker
And then that goes for a lot of things in life. And then you never do, which is a mistake and this is a learning, right? Then the pandemic comes by, you're like, Oh my God, I can get out of my house. Like, like, what? What's going on?
01:54:41
Speaker
Yes, so this is a new project basically it's the mini diaries that i'm working on so wait Let me just set this up a little bit right a little bit a little bit. Just just ever so slightly So I know I know there's one there's one very big love in your life, right a very big love I've got a lot of big loves in my life
01:55:00
Speaker
okay good for you by the way good for you i'm happy to hear that that's a problem yes i'm very happy to hear that but there's one there's one big love in your life that doesn't um how can i put it that's that's that's
01:55:15
Speaker
That's blue. Oh yeah, very good. That's blue. It's very blue. That's quite small. That's quite small. And it really doesn't demand a lot of attention as well. And it's always there waiting for you to come. Full of character. Full of character. Who might we be talking about? That's who might we be talking about? That's Bob. Who is Bob? Who is Bob, George? Tell us about Bob. So Bob. Bob is a little rascal.
01:55:46
Speaker
Who is Bob? Bob is my car. Bob is my love life. Bob is like... Okay. Bob's not your uncle. No, it's not. Bob's not your uncle. Well, eventually he's gonna be my uncle, but...
01:55:58
Speaker
It's my 1976 Austin Mini 1000. It's like, like people have like pets and dogs and cats and goldfish and I got Bob. Okay. Because trust me, he takes up an equal amount of time in upkeeping it and doing whatever you got to do with it with him. And he actually does have a character like a dog or a cat or whatever. So you get treated nice and in pieces on you. You know, that's how it works. But it's
01:56:29
Speaker
I kid you not, that car has a soul. He's like Herbie. If you say that I have to ask you
01:56:39
Speaker
How? Okay, you said 76, right? So is 25 years old by my math at 45 years old. There you go. That's, that's, that's. See, there's also why I became a photographer because I suck at maths. Yeah, good choice. Yeah. So so better, better photographer than a rocket scientist. You got to come in as well. Don't skip them. Right?
01:57:05
Speaker
True. That's your technical detail about an important one. When did you first lay eyes on Bob? Please explain that moment to us and we're imagining some Barry White playing in the background. What do you tell the story? I first laid eyes on Bob. It was 2006. I already knew what car I wanted to get. It was a classic Mini. I had already spent two years looking for a decent one, but to no avail.
01:57:37
Speaker
Then I was working as a sales engineer back then in a company here in Greece. I was up in northern Greece overseeing a work site and I was done with my work and I had to drive back to Thessaloniki. So I'm like, okay, I'm going to make a stop at Yannen, which is a very important city in northwest Greece.
01:57:54
Speaker
and very nice. And it's beautiful city as well, actually. So anyway, I was just walking through looking for a place to crash for a while and eat something. And I saw this blue little thing parked at the corner with a for sale sign on it.
01:58:09
Speaker
And it was kind of like a love at first sight. I just walked around it a few times and I checked on him and I'm like, yeah, I'll take you for a spin and see what you like. So I called up the guy from the ad, came by, drove him. I was back in four days. I took the last night bus from Thessaloniki.
01:58:28
Speaker
I made it to hiana i think i sound like five in the morning everything was close i slept on the bench the bus station waiting for the public services to open up so i could do all the paperwork and stuff and i had a backpack with me with some very basic things ahead like a spark plugs points a condenser and spark plug cables i think just.
01:58:49
Speaker
Bought the car, paid the guy, got the papers, drove it to about five kilometers outside of Janena. Did a full service of the car on the side of the road. And I just set out and I drove him straight flat out back to my hometown. And he's been my love and hate affair ever since. What is it? Why was it so clear for you to have a Mini? What is it about Minis that fascinates you so much?
01:59:20
Speaker
Oh, that's a very difficult question. What about Bob? What is it with Bob then? No, Bob is a mini. Let him answer. Give him a moment. There's a thing about... I had a friend of mine who had a mini and I drove it once, right?
01:59:39
Speaker
It's such a unique car actually that once you drive it, you're like, oh my God, I'm driving a go-kart, but this one has a license to drive on public roads. It's amazing how the car drives. It's so tiny on the outside and then you go in and I'm like a six foot one guy, right?
01:59:59
Speaker
Yes, you're like, where did all this space come from in this tiny little fellow? It's the design of the car is ingenious and it actually warned me like it had me at hello, like at the first like,
02:00:15
Speaker
turn off the engine, the car had me. And it's alive. It may be small and it has a tiny engine, but for a 1000cc car, Bob can really go. Trust me, it goes. So it was incredible fun to drive. It is incredible fun to drive.
02:00:32
Speaker
Driving that car, a lot of old cars actually, puts a smile on your face. It's like, oh, I got nothing to go overboard. You know what? The heck with it. I'm going to take Bob for a spin. And you come back refreshed and happy and cheerful, and then you go above your day. So it's much more than just a car. It's something that's
02:00:51
Speaker
It brings my spirit up. It's a cool thing to drive. It's a fun thing to drive. I totally understand that. I have a car just like that. My car is a little bigger. It is. It has a different color as well, but I can relate to that. It's just...
02:01:09
Speaker
Yeah, it's difficult also to put it in words. It's just a feeling, just getting in there and just taking it out for a spin and then just being able to, you know, increase, especially park it next to the beach. And in my case, make yourself a cup of coffee, you know, sit there with the open sliding door and invite life right in. It's like you're from New Jersey.
02:01:39
Speaker
What wrong with you, right?
02:01:42
Speaker
Yeah. It's like Anthony Fauci. He's from Brooklyn. This is how he does. That's it. So, yeah. Because you said Kosa Nostra so many times, I thought I would just... I think this is the only kind of mafia that we would like. The type of Kosa Nostra we both agree would like to be members of. Yes, true. Yes, absolutely. Why not? The coffee Kosa Nostra, right? Is that what it is? I'm not entirely sure. The Kosa Nostra of having the...
02:02:11
Speaker
Which cause a nostril we're promoting right now, please make it. It's kind of a relationship with life, through a vehicle, through a way of life, that vehicle enables you to have. And the opportunities that the vehicle gives you, like, for example, you mentioned you're on a beach, you open up your slide door, you have a nice coffee. George is driving Bob down the seaside road of Saloniki. You have this beautiful, nice coastline on the one side, I mean, the horizon.
02:02:39
Speaker
I just also have to say that that I don't know if you've you have seen it as well but Bob is just and it's a it's a work of art honestly if you look on the inside like the way that some of the stuff is also covered like in this jeans textile like like his like the
02:02:57
Speaker
What is it? I didn't even know these all these parts in the car. I don't even know but like the the steering wheel column covers. Yes, the thing column. Thank you. The steering wheel column. Yes, you can tell I'm also I suck at mechanical engineering. Really? The truth is, there was nothing I could do about photography because it really takes absolutely no like competence and whatever. So I was left with nothing. This is where I ended up.
02:03:22
Speaker
So exactly it's just a wonderful car. It's a piece of art. Is this also how you think? Just like Fonzie, I think Bob is also like the... Thank you very much for saying that. That's why it's nice to have you here George because yes, I think this ride is absolutely meant for Fonzie. I guess so.
02:03:42
Speaker
Did you do the interior as well? You must have probably put a lot of time into that as well, because I saw the upholstery, like the jean textile that's holding things together, the way that you can place things under the back seats and stuff. It's just wonderful. You have a lot of kavatas in there as opposed. Kavatas, by the way, for everybody that's non-Greek, is like a backup. Yes, correct.
02:04:07
Speaker
Yes, for people who, yes, Cavadze is the backup, but it is such a... You can't really say that Cavadze is a backup, it's just a backup. No, it's more than that. I know... No, the Cavadze... Just you give it a try. No, no, no. Hold on. No, the Cavadze...
02:04:22
Speaker
all the secret storage spots that Bob has, like all classic minis do, and it's part of how he continues Alex's design was in conceiving that car, that there was so much space in there. There's loads of space everywhere to put stuff in
European Road Trip: Exploring Cultures
02:04:41
Speaker
a mini. And you're like, how the heck, man, did you do that? And it's there. You can see this
02:04:46
Speaker
under the seat next to the seats on the doors there's this big dash and stuff of course everything with denim in there it's my design my ideas a lot of them i've done myself some of it like the the seats were done by
02:05:01
Speaker
a friend of mine who does upholstery for cars and stuff. But the rest of it is basically my old pants and trousers like all the time I could find. And actually, I'm doing a few more. Do you still have any pants left? I actually got them too.
02:05:20
Speaker
No, I started stealing stuff from my brother and my father now. Wherever I could get my hands on and something, it will just disappear. So if you lose your pants, I was probably there at some point. Thank God for the pandemic because we live in the Zoom age. Nobody cares what we look for from the waist downwards. It's not good. Nobody wears pants anymore. So you won't miss your jeans when I come by stealing them.
02:05:50
Speaker
No, nobody cares anymore. I mean, everybody's wearing boxer shorts underwear all the time. Like, anyway, right? Isn't that what you guys are doing? That's the good side of the pattern. Yeah, absolutely. Totally. I just, I just dress from the, from the waist up. Like I've been doing that for months now. Like TV shows. Totally. Like a news anchor. Anyway, so you're, you're, I mean, Bob just looks fantastic for everybody that wants to know. I will link to the YouTube page, um, because also you are giving really very intricate
02:06:21
Speaker
insights into how to repair your mini it's really it's a whole workshop basically so this is what happens when the windshield wipers break this is what you do this is where you put it in I mean your whole background in mechanical engineering really comes out and it's just fantastic because you have so much patience your passion really shines through and you just really take them into the workshop and you see see this is how you do this is what you have to watch out for like have a
02:06:50
Speaker
have a magnet for instance under all the different parts so that you don't leave lose all the the washers and so on and so on it's really amazing that magnet thing you need it on a mini because the mini has this very weird karma like hovering over it that say for example you drop you drop a washer right out of all the washers you got out you only drop the one that's the most crucial for you to put everything back together
02:07:16
Speaker
And the bloody thing will fall into some sort of a mystic mythical almost crevice that nobody knows except for I don't know whatever in the Ensign Bay and it will only reappear 15 years later when you don't need it. Like the moment you actually are trying to find it, it will never show up.
02:07:38
Speaker
So yes a magnet comes in handy but the reason why i'm going through the process is like okay you decide to go on a trip it's kinda like what am i gonna pack in my backpack for example right what am i gonna prepare do i need shots like vaccines whatever where am i going.
02:07:54
Speaker
And on a road trip, and especially because this is not going to be a road trip where I'll be, okay, I'm a YouTuber. Here I am driving. This is the experience. This is the country. And I have three vans behind of me. One of them is for parts. One of them is full of engineers. And another one has a spare car in case the one I'm driving fails. And, you know, that's not the case. It's me, myself and I in Bob and only the parts that I can carry with me. And, you know, regardless of how many kavadzas Bob may have.
02:08:24
Speaker
how much stuff are you going to take with you because you need your stuff and in my drone and in my cameras and in my everything, right? And there's only so much you can take in a Mini, right? I mean, it's a Mini. You can actually take a lot in a Mini, but what's really important in setting out on a road trip is that you really, really need to know your car inside and out. So the moment
02:08:47
Speaker
For example, I've reached the point where I can recognize from where a noise comes from and what the problem is just by the sound of it, right? And that really comes handy on a road trip because you got to know what the fix is, when and how. You need to know what tools to have with you. You need to know what spares to have with you. But most importantly, the reason why I'm going through all the stages now with the car is that
02:09:09
Speaker
I got to check it inside out and make sure everything tallies to what I think the car can do, right? Hence, that's why I'm checking. So what does this car has to do exactly? I mean, what does it really have to do? What are you planning for it to do? Well, I'm planning on a trip that involves around 16 countries, about 13,000 kilometers. I have no idea how long it's going to take me to, probably around five months. I reckon five to six months.
02:09:41
Speaker
And I'm going to drive him through every single country I haven't visited in Europe, plus a few that I have visited, but I got some good friends over. And I'm going to run a trip.
02:09:51
Speaker
and try and experience that trip, not as a tourist, again. I wanna, see, I don't wanna hit a country, tick a box, hey, I'm down in Bulgaria, move on to the next one. I actually wanna drive it. I wanna stop over, I wanna meet people, I wanna be hosted by people, I wanna spend time with them, I wanna see what they're like, what their lives are like, what their culture's like. I mean, what goes on in, like, even in countries that,
02:10:19
Speaker
you know, are less traveled like Moldavia, for example. What is it like in Latvia? What is it like in Estonia? And I just want to meet my Europe. I mean, I'm part of it and I've never traveled it. So the plan is to drive through it and experience whatever a travel or a trip has to offer along the way. I'll just be doing it in a classic mini. And
02:10:45
Speaker
I have no idea what's to come my way, basically. It's what kept me on my feet during the second lockdown, to be quite honest with you. It's my new year's resolution because I had hit such a huge low because last year brought me to bankruptcy twice, right?
02:11:07
Speaker
So you try and you fail and you try and you fail and you try you fail. I mean, regardless of how many and you fail hard, right? Right. And regardless of how many reserves you have, at some point you do get tired and you're like, okay, okay, this is not going to work. And then you just wake up one morning and you say, you make a very simple thought. What do I like photography, traveling?
02:11:33
Speaker
Mini. Then you go for a walk and you're like, what do I like? Photography, traveling, mini. And you're like, why not combine them? And by combining them came the project of the mini diaries. And that's exactly what it's going to be. Travel diaries of my experience of roaming around Europe with Bob, basically, with whatever that might entail along the way.
02:12:04
Speaker
To be quite honest. Already there's an amazing amount. I think you did eight or nine videos now on the YouTube channel for mini diaries. I have seven already and I'm working on the next. Yes.
02:12:19
Speaker
So you basically hit the ground running, right? When you depart. So it's like there's already an amazing build up and insight actually also into your relationship with Fonzie. My God, look at that. Look at that. It's like I so relate to the story that I just swapped names out there.
02:12:39
Speaker
I mean, really, so with Bob, sorry, but by the way, fun fact, fun fact for people that don't speak Greek, Bob is the one name in the Greek language where when you spell it on the Greek alphabet, the amount of letters is almost doubled.
02:12:54
Speaker
That is because he saw one Bob responsible posting somewhere. I love that though. No, I just love it. I just love it. I'm sorry. I just love it. Anyway, that's besides the point. So where exactly are you going? I mean, you have kind of like an idea. You want to just free roam. You start... It would be a combination of four. Sorry, what? No, what inspired your route? Exactly. Yeah, what did you say? Yes, what does your route look like? How did you plan it?
02:13:23
Speaker
Well, the idea for the route, actually the idea for a trip came one night when I was just listening to music and I was trying to figure out what am I going to do with my life. And that's exactly what my third episode, The Great Escape on YouTube is all about. I was inspired by radio, actually.
02:13:40
Speaker
Oh, I love that scene. By the way, I just love that scene. It's just so good. I love that scene when you show that radio and you turn that knob and it just goes throughout the world. It's like a world receiver, European receiver, right? And the needle goes and goes. It's a German radio. It's a 1958 Blaupunkt Sultan, which I restored and it works lovely.
02:14:06
Speaker
Beautiful. Because you had long waves, medium waves and short waves, not only FM, so you had four bands on the radios. On long, medium and short, you didn't tune into a frequency. You said, okay, I want to listen to Luxembourg right now. So you turn the knob and the slider would just move to the city. You wanted to tune in and there you go. You were tuned into Luxembourg.
02:14:32
Speaker
In times when I was so bored of everything, I would just press the button and it only works at night. When the sun doesn't interrupt the radio frequencies, you can listen to long wave frequencies on that radio. Very nice. Yeah, during the day, there's nothing. But when the earth turns over and it doesn't see the sun anymore, the radio waves are free to travel your way. They're not like mingled up with solar. I didn't know that. That's so interesting. See? You learned something.
02:15:01
Speaker
Oh, I learn something every day, don't I? So many things every day. So I was sitting there playing with with my radio trying to tune into different countries and see, you know, what's what's the story? But then I would sit there like almost like lobotomized. And I'm like, it was like an epiphany. God damn, I can actually
02:15:20
Speaker
Because I was thinking, what would it be like in Frankfurt or in Milan or in Riga? Because it actually has names of capitals of countries. And I'm like, that would be a great trip. And then as the radio antenna was sliding over the dashboard, I'm like,
02:15:38
Speaker
Why not do it? Just plan it and go. Just take Bob and go. Just go. Yes. And then I got excited. Then I didn't sleep that night. Then I got up the next morning and shot the first episode. And then, yeah, I got a YouTube. I got myself a YouTube channel and a plan. And actually, it's evolving into something I can't stop working on, to be quite honest with you. I just can't.
02:16:05
Speaker
Because I can't. Amazing, and you shouldn't. You shouldn't stop. Just carry on. You know what I realized? My biggest problem over the last three and a half years was that I actually made a mistake. And that mistake was to try and grow roots in Greece. And that was wrong. That was very wrong. What's wrong with roots? Yeah, what's wrong with roots? Well, if I was to be...
02:16:33
Speaker
described by an element. I'm not Earth. I'm either wind or I'm either water, but I need to be on the move. I should have actually tried to make just a base. That was my initial plan, make a base, but I ended up growing roots here.
02:16:51
Speaker
It's very... That's different. Because of the pandemic. It's different because sometimes you say, okay, I am air or I am wind or I am water, but still these elements have a connection. But Vicky, you know what? Traveling has become such an inherent part of my life. It's such an important part of my life. It's kind of like my fuel for life. Like all the excitement and the experience and the knowledge and the adventure and everything that is...
02:17:20
Speaker
tied to an actual trip.
02:17:23
Speaker
I can't live without. It's like, for example, had I been, I don't know, an adventure photographer or working for, I don't know what, like National Geographic or even a war correspondent, I would love that. I would be on the move. I would feel alive. Like, okay, people would shoot over my head and throw bombs and stuff, but damn, that would be fun. I'm not a nine to five guy. I'm not a go to office guy. I can't. I gotta be on the move and I haven't moved at all. So ask the question.
02:17:52
Speaker
I have a question. I used to think like that a lot. I still think like that a lot. And I often ask myself a question I would like to share with you. Isn't this part of our future to-do list of fears letting go of our relationship with travel? Would that be in there?
02:18:17
Speaker
In my case, no, I don't think so, Vicky. At least not now. The version of me today, right now... What if that was not in the bad way, but not in order to... I'm not saying not to travel. I'm saying not to be consciously in need of travel, but to do it.
02:18:36
Speaker
independently free without meeting it. That is an excellent question. I'm not saying not to travel. I'm saying not to make our revolution dependent on travel because there are circumstances like the corona which are out of our control just like so many other circumstances in our lives that can affect our dreams, the way we want to do things,
02:19:00
Speaker
Isn't it maybe an opportunity with everything that we've learned from our travels to think how we can do without them? So that we appreciate them in a different way. I've actually thought of it what you say. Yes, I have thought of it and actually
02:19:21
Speaker
I realized that I used to travel and I paused for a while when I left Singapore. I didn't really travel because I realized that the reason I was traveling so heavily because that my travel was my escape route from the reality that I didn't like.
02:19:37
Speaker
Yes, and now it's different kind of trouble, but you need that independence to happen. That is very quality. You hit the nail in the head again. So the reason why I used to travel... She usually does that. Yeah, I know she usually does that, doesn't she? So the reason why I used to travel to the reasons why I want to travel now are totally different.
02:20:00
Speaker
Absolutely. But I still want to travel. And that's part of... We don't have a bad on the things we like. Correct. But the difference being, so the growth that has come from all this experience is that I no longer need to travel to escape. I want to travel to discover. I want to travel to grow. I want to travel to experience. To become. Yes, to become. And you know what I realized? I also realized that
02:20:28
Speaker
traveling is not just to go visit other countries. I now, because of the Corona, understood what, I think it's Elites. I'm not sure another Greek poet who said that the best journey are people. So I started taking different kinds of trips and travels and journeys due to the Corona.
02:20:57
Speaker
through people and that's a totally different experience altogether. So the mini diaries is going to be a combination of both.
02:21:06
Speaker
there will be a lot of people interactions along the way, a lot. It's not gonna be, hey, here's the site. I mean, you can visit that as a tourist anyway, right? For example, like Casa Popolari in Bucharest. I don't think I will, I will probably drive outside of it, but I don't think I'll make a stop. I would most easily make a stop in a farm with locals in a village somewhere in the middle of nowhere in Romania, where, I don't know, they do something special and spend time with them and try and understand
02:21:35
Speaker
their view and their version of life. That's what I'll be doing through it, through the many diaries.
02:21:42
Speaker
And let's see how that goes. I think it will go great because also just like we are redefining so many things in our lives now with the Corona, it's also maybe an opportunity to redefine how we see travel and how we see the experiences that we get while traveling because it has a lot to do with how we view our world, with how we view other people from other countries,
02:22:07
Speaker
That's correct. Our opinions, all sorts of stuff. I mean, it's really like a huge mosaic of elements. And that's why also I'm really looking forward to this trip with Bob. As far as I've seen from some maps, like picking onto some videos and everything I saw online, you are going all the way to North Cape and then coming down from the Fjords and
02:22:36
Speaker
Yes, like the western part of Europe. So you are starting from the Balkan region and then heading up. Take us a little bit through the wider plan. So the wider plan is I will... Okay, so the plan is there's not really a plan, a concrete plan at the moment, but in which way? In which way, though? I have three different potential starting routes for my trip. So I will either
02:23:06
Speaker
enter Bulgaria and go all the way north, Romania, Moldavia, Ukraine, all the way up, hit Scandinavia, do a full run of Scandinavia, then come down. Or I will start going through North Macedonia, Serbia, whatever, all the way up.
02:23:22
Speaker
You stop at Munich, you visit us here in Munich. Oh, I will stop at Munich anyway, right? I will stop at Munich. We might not be here anymore, but if we stop at any time, we will coordinate. And the other one would be to start through Italy, provided the international classic mini-meeting does take place on the 4th of July this year. And it doesn't get cancelled, so there's going to be a lot of bobs out there.
02:23:48
Speaker
Exactly. No, there's not a lot of bobs. There's only one Bob. I'm sorry. There's only one Bob. Okay, it's not cousins of Bob. Bob's your uncle. That will be a great starting point if it actually happens. So if the IMM is on for 2021, I'm starting with Italy. I've spoken
02:24:08
Speaker
Well, actually, Italy is going to be my first major stop. So if that actually happens, if IMM happens, I will drive to Belgrade, unite with the mini club Belgrade, then we'll drive through Croatia, pick up a few minutes there, then we'll drive through Slovenia, pick up a few minutes there, and then all together, we're going to enter Italy and go to Milan. Have fun there, do whatever we do, talk about minis the whole day and drink beer or martini for me, you know?
02:24:35
Speaker
that sounds like a very promiscuous trip just saying like i'll pick up a couple of minis here i'll pick up a couple of minis there i mean just like okay i mean what is this like uh i mean anyway no no that sounds like fun yeah it's like a lot of fun for the mini i would love to film it with the drone constantly oh yeah absolutely mini exchange
02:24:59
Speaker
Oh, totally, totally. That would be very nice. All right. And then where are you off from Italy then, George? You meet with all the Minis in Milan. You have your mini catwalk there. Yes, we'll have our mini catwalk in Milan. Oh, very nice. That's a very good idea. You know, in Rome, do as the Romans in Milan, do a catwalk. That's how it works.
02:25:19
Speaker
Exactly. Totally. I think that's a great idea. So from then on, that's the only planned thing on the trip at the moment, IMM. I think that's a fairly good trip planning, because how far can you plan these days? I mean, really? Correct. So there's a wish list, for example. So my wish list includes me exiting Italy through the Stelvio Pass, which is one of the best
02:25:49
Speaker
And I guess most difficult routes to drive in Europe, but it's extremely scenic. It's supposed to be a breathtaking drive. And from then on, I really don't know. Go to Switzerland through that. I will go through Switzerland. So I have friends in a few countries. I already have invitations to cross in Zurich, in Bucharest, in Paris, in Denmark as well.
02:26:20
Speaker
I really don't know which direction the trip will take. What I can guarantee you is there will be no highways, no tolls, no major networks I'll be driving through. It will be as off the beaten track through Europe as it gets, old countryside roads, whatever, through villages, through remote places, and try and record the experience of it all along the way.
02:26:44
Speaker
is how it's going to work. How can people follow? Can people follow your trip? Will you be posting along the way? Not that you have to bind yourself to it, but do you plan on maybe making some videos like Facebook or YouTube or something?
02:26:59
Speaker
So the YouTube channel is there where I upload the episode and I will be uploading a new episode every time I hit a new country. So I've already organized myself both with my gear and my setup and what software I'll be using and what have you. So I will be able to edit on the go basically. So it's not going to be, I'm going to disappear for like five months and then all of a sudden I'll come up with
02:27:23
Speaker
You know 15 episodes it will be Yeah, it will be an episode per country as I move along because mind you I won't really have a time limitation Once I set out for the trip, basically I will spend as much time as I feel I I want to or I have to spend in a country To complete my let's say travel mission and then move on. So yeah So people can follow the mini diaries And
02:27:53
Speaker
I don't know. That sounds super exciting. I really can't give you a concrete plan right now because I will be making that plan along the way as the way dictates or evolves. Perfect. I'm not pretty siding or predefining anything for that trip at all. Nothing. I'll just hit the road literally. All right. I'll just be prepared with the car. That's all I want.
02:28:19
Speaker
Be prepared to be unprepared because you never know what's coming. He's never totally unprepared either. If you watch the YouTube videos now, he's fixed Bob for good. I mean, Bob's really at a good state right now. I mean, those windscreen wipers, they're really working well. All my money's on Bob. That fan. All my money's on Bob. I mean, that fan is just a really great fan now.
02:28:42
Speaker
And especially how it's... I mean, really, you should watch it. There's a lot of things to learn about minis as well. Do you have any hopes for the trip, actually? Anything you like? I would like that. Or you really just entirely...
02:29:00
Speaker
free and your mind is just a big void. Hopes for it. It depends on how the whole project and the trip gets perceived by people. If that becomes a source of revenue for me, that's going to be ideal, basically. Because the plan is, I got to be on the move and I got to find a way to combine and utilize travel, photography and videography along the way.
02:29:29
Speaker
I can talk, I can tell a story, I can shoot and I can film and I can edit and I can travel. And I really don't know where that's going to take me. I mean, I have a wish at the moment, but I'm not going to limit whatever opportunities are going to be along the way to that wish that I have now, right? So I'll be taking Bob through with a totally open mind and Ksara, really.
02:29:57
Speaker
All right. Wonderful. That sounds like a... It really leads me with rubbing my hands. Yes. It's like, ooh, I can't wait to see this. Obviously, in order to see this, you got to tune into the video. Anyway, of Vicky rubbing her hands. There's something that I would like to know from
Reflecting on Global Community and Interconnectedness
02:30:20
Speaker
you. Somebody that has traveled a lot and seen a lot of parts of the world and
02:30:27
Speaker
I think really has an understanding of a shared essence of human beings. Also going back to what you said about Africa, how it grounded you, how your visits have just put things in perspective for you as well. From my perspective, I have this feeling that, and this pandemic is a perfect example of that, that we are a global community.
02:30:53
Speaker
We are like this. This pandemic has illustrated that to us in a very strong way that this outbreak is something that we all share. We share in our own ways and our own realities, our own localities whatsoever. But we share it, right? And this is something that is just
02:31:12
Speaker
making it very clear that we have a shared fate, a shared responsibility for each other in a way as well. And I think it hasn't been stronger than now. This was quite clear maybe for all the time, but this pandemic is making it clearer than anything ever before. And what I'm thinking and what I find myself thinking a lot lately is there's the reality of that. And at the same time, we haven't developed a narrative yet.
02:31:42
Speaker
to sustain this idea of a global community. We still see everything as very localized or nationalistic as well, a lot of the things. And to my understanding, at least, I believe to solve a lot of the problems that we face in the world, we have to also come to an understanding as a community that depends on each other.
02:32:10
Speaker
How do you think we could create a narrative like that? How do you think we could reach out to each other and have a narrative that sustains that little bit and supports that idea? Is it through
02:32:24
Speaker
individual projects? Is it through art and culture? Have you thought about this in a way as well? Does this make any sense to you what I'm saying? It does make a lot of sense and there are so many. I'm not really sure if narrative is the word I would use, for example, but
02:32:48
Speaker
The common myth, if you will, as well. The way I see it is that there are so many means available to our disposal at the moment, right now, as we talk, that could actually bring us together from separate independent communities to a more, let's say, unified community.
02:33:13
Speaker
I just feel we're not using them. It's like what I mentioned earlier on that there's so many things to bring us together and we keep on focusing on things that should actually set us apart in a sense.
02:33:28
Speaker
That's no coincidence, though. This is the way of thinking that is being promoted on the political level, on the social level. So, of course. That brings us to fears again as well. Yes, it brings you back to fears. It takes you away from this communal experience, the shared experience. What you are describing now, what George is going after with his new trip, is this shared experience. What you are describing
02:33:58
Speaker
as coming together as a community is a shared experience and that is exactly what should not happen because it questions the way the society is working today and of course there are conflicts there. So that's why I think it's a beautiful conversation that we are having because amid this quarantine there's a beautiful person somewhere planning on a trip
02:34:22
Speaker
to have this shared experience with the world. And I think that's a very beautiful thing to know that's happening, you know, and to dedicate a podcast to, and to dedicate a trip to, and a conversation to, and so many things. Correct. One thing I realized, and I did not, actually there was such a feedback on an idea ahead of the beginning, and people's reaction, I haven't shared that idea yet with anyone on the channel.
02:34:51
Speaker
It was just something that I thought that might work is people started asking what I thought and that was how can they join the trip? I haven't even started. I haven't even left.
02:35:00
Speaker
right? How can they join? And I'm like, Ooh, actually, okay, let's work on that. So I am already working on how people can join the trip. Cause what I realized was that people understand that they need either a change or something to brighten up their lives or something to help them think or sort things out. And they have two major, let's say, uh,
02:35:26
Speaker
blocks on the way first of all they're afraid to say it or ask and the second one is they don't know how they just don't know how to do it right and this is where a travel buddy will come in handy i think and that's the plan or that's one of the things that will be happening with the mini diaries
02:35:47
Speaker
Right? There will be, because I actually had people saying, Hey, George, this is random guy. He's super cool. Really awesome guy from the States. He saw one of the episodes texting me and we've been talking and he's one of the nicest guys ever, right? Complete stranger up till a few weeks ago. And he's like, George, how can I join?
02:36:11
Speaker
And I'm like, you know, bro, you just got to be patient a little while and I'll tell you exactly how it's going to happen. But this guy seems determined. He actually wants to fly over.
02:36:20
Speaker
and join the trip for a leg. That would be really nice. That would be really nice. For a leg of the trip, right? So just giving you a teaser, there's a reason why there's no passenger seat all this time in my car. It's missing. If you've noticed, there's no passenger seat. There's a reason for it. I have, I have. And you know what? I have.
02:36:42
Speaker
I thought when I said I thought okay I mean because I know you know I know you're you're a tall person all right okay not like super tall but you're a tall person also compared to me you are tall so I'm like okay now he doesn't have a seat because he wants to lay his foot on the other you know he's big leg on the other side you know and stretch and all of that
02:37:01
Speaker
But now I see there is another meaning to it, and I really like what I'm hearing. Yeah, there is another meaning to it. Actually, it was the absence of the seat that actually brought the idea forward. The idea. Yes. That's how I got the idea. I'm like, yeah, that would work. Why not? And then... Be careful now. People are listening. There is an empty seat on both, in both. Yeah, correct. There will be...
02:37:31
Speaker
There are going to be terms and conditions for that, but I think it's going to be great. Of course. Because already from the conversations I'm having online with quite a few people actually.
02:37:46
Speaker
It's that they're desperate to just disconnect and talk and do it in an environment that's pleasant. And that environment is not necessarily a physical environment. It's an experience that creates the environment that people want to find themselves in. And that's what I'm working towards with it. And I think it's going to be great fun, actually.
02:38:10
Speaker
I think it's going to be great. The challenge with the road trip is, okay, I've been a solo traveler all this time, all these years.
02:38:20
Speaker
Car traveler, for example, you can't just randomly turn around and talk to whom, the mirror, for example, or my gear shift, it doesn't work this way. You do need company along the way. For example, if you catch a train, if you get bored after four, five, six, seven, eight, 10 hours, you turn around and start socializing with people. When you're in a car driving by yourself, it's not the same. So I think that's going to be more than handy, actually.
02:38:46
Speaker
And there's a lot of things to... It's gonna be like a cultural exchange on the road, so to speak. And I think that's gonna be cool. Really cool, actually. I'm sure, I'm really hoping that you will also take some photos because... No, he would definitely take photos. Let me tell you, my hands are gonna be full. My plate's full because I gotta be able to take photos
02:39:14
Speaker
and shoot raw footage and edit while on the road, which means that, say, for example, if you want to cover a distance of 50 kilometers, you need how much? Let's say an hour, it's going to take me three or four. So I figured that there's absolutely no way I can cover anything more than 150 kilometers on a good day. Absolutely no way. And I've set that one as a top limit for me moving about.
02:39:44
Speaker
I would absolutely agree with you. You know what, setting up a kilometer, let's say milestone, is a bit of a trap. On the one hand, if your time is limited, it will work. Last time, because I did want a road trip around Europe and what
02:40:02
Speaker
I would not do again is do this. Plan this 200 kilometers a day, 100 kilometers a day. It really takes you away from the actual goal of the trip. Yes, absolutely. If you don't really have to do it, why do it? I mean, if you do have the time to spend, it also gets you... I mean, this should be an experience not stressful. Like you have this 20 kilometers or 30 kilometers until the next village, that's fine.
02:40:31
Speaker
to really have to do a kilometer count every day for me. Okay, when I did this trip, it was a little bit tight. I had to get back at some point to work, but still, you are at North Cape facing in the Arctic Ocean and you are seeing a never-ending sunset. You cannot think that you have to cover 250 kilometers. It is stupid. No, I agree with you. And I will not. Exactly.
02:40:57
Speaker
The only reason I've set the limit is that I need an overall, let's say, guideline. Say, for example, there's limits to how much I'll drive per day. There's a limit to how high I will rev the engine, right?
02:41:12
Speaker
My limit, for example, is 4,000 RPM and for specific periods of time. There is an absolute no drive at night policy through the trip, absolute no way. Unless it's a matter of life or death, I will not be driving at night. But you need to have some sort of limitations.
02:41:30
Speaker
Right? All good with that, but not to make it your... No, I understand. Not to become lost in your... Lost in counting. To me, the question about... Are you drinking my drink? Fine. About the narrative of the community, I think is one that's...
02:41:56
Speaker
That's really been on my mind for a lot of the last few days. What I wanted to ask you is in this whole lockdown, now lockdown two, right? I mean, who's counting? Who's counting? Who's counting? Who is counting, really? Do you have any inspirational story that you came across
02:42:23
Speaker
or that you also experienced, saw where people really overcame the boundaries of the quarantine of the lockdown and reached out to one another, built bridges, anything like that. If you think of the past year, what inspirational story that's connected to the pandemic has
02:42:51
Speaker
What has influenced me? I'll share a story from Easter last year. It was the first time ever, I think, that Greeks were locked up and were not allowed to celebrate Easter. And Easter is a very big thing in Greece, right? It's the one of the biggest holidays. Not one of the biggest, it's the biggest religious holiday in Greece is Easter, not Christmas, Easter.
02:43:18
Speaker
So it was when the government announced that, guys, you can't go to church, you stay home and that's it. End of story. I'll never forget Easter night, Saturday night. So when the bell struck midnight and it was, you know, it's a religious resurrection of Christ and it's the beginning of the new life and all that kind of stuff.
02:43:42
Speaker
People were on their balconies. And I know my neighborhood. Nobody talks to anyone. Or let me rephrase that. Nobody ever spoke with anyone. And you know, one balcony, it's next to another, and another, and another. Those people, the only time they would actually interact, nine out of 10 of the cases, would be to swear at each other, or pick a fight, or move your pot from here to there, or your dog is barking too much, and I can't sleep, and you know. Move your pot.
02:44:12
Speaker
Yeah. But it is, it's real. We can relate, we can relate. It's Greek drama. Why are your flowers extending into my balcony like all that kind of crap, right? That night. Been there, been there, done that. Well, what really amazed me was that all of a sudden that night people were flocking the balconies in the middle of the night, everyone holding candles.
02:44:39
Speaker
Candles, yes. Yeah, lit candles. And not only were they wishing one another happy Easter, they would wish happy Easter to the buildings across the street. So, and the thing, and usually, no, you say the wishes and, okay, let's go in and eat, is what used to be the story before the pandemic. This time round, people spent 15, maybe 20 minutes
02:45:09
Speaker
out of the balconies holding lit candles, talking to one another and exchanging wishes. And I was like, you know what? After all, there are some good things about this whole lockdown story. It actually brought people whom you never thought would spend one second to talk to their neighbor.
02:45:31
Speaker
spend 20 minutes out in the cold, act tight, holding a lit candle and doing the best they can to make one another feel nice and supportive of what everyone was going through. So it was kind of like people uniting against a common enemy, if I'm allowed to use those words, but that actually struck me as a very, very
02:45:56
Speaker
intense and profound experience during the pandemic time, to be quite honest with you. If there's one thing I remember... But I think that it's also about what the spirit of this holiday is all about. I mean, it is about resurrection. And I think really, also because I remember this is there very intensely, I think that was the real firework. What you just described, this connection between neighbors,
02:46:26
Speaker
Yes, it was. Yes, that was the real firework. I remember also I went up the rooftop towards the fireworks and everything afterwards and to sing and the sound of each there was very different this year. Also, because you heard all these balcony talks, I also live in a very crowded neighborhood. So this idea of the balcony, I can totally relate to that.
02:46:53
Speaker
and how each home opened up to the neighbor, which was, yes, otherwise limited to, you snore too much or move your pot. Yes, I think so too. Yes, totally. And your dog, there's something wrong with your dog. I mean, they're just barking all the time and all of that. And for some moments, it was like that. I absolutely can relate to that.
02:47:18
Speaker
And looking at this now and what you were just describing, I think is then a great transition also to the next question actually. What opportunities do you see in the pandemic? If you think of what is going on right now, what do you think we can take from this? What do you think we can
02:47:40
Speaker
Or leave behind, that's why. Or leave behind, exactly. Could this potentially, I know it's up to us, right? How could this potentially help us maybe to also transform things? True. There's always good to be found out of any perceivably bad situation, always. There's always something to be learned. Potentially, yes. There's always something to be learned out of it.
02:48:05
Speaker
I wouldn't speak in general terms, but I would speak for myself. I have learned to appreciate that. Let me put it the other way. I will never, ever, ever in my life, once this thing is over or it normalizes out, I will never, ever say, it's okay, I can do it tomorrow. Fuck that. I'll do it now. What tomorrow? You never know what tomorrow brings anymore.
02:48:32
Speaker
Like, seriously, we all thought we had the lecture of, nah, it's okay, I can do it next year, or I'll do it next month. You can't now. Like, imagine, you can't. There's so many things that you can't do that we left for tomorrow, and tomorrow, yesterday is tomorrow is today, and we're stuck. That's definitely a learning that I'm taking from this pandemic story.
02:48:58
Speaker
It's definitely historic times, the ones we're living through right now. And this is definitely a huge opportunity to drive change because the pandemic actually forced every single society to bring its dirty laundry on the surface. And there's a lot of it. There's a lot of it.
02:49:19
Speaker
There's a lot of it. That's a nice way to put it. But it is. I'm not going to use any other terminology for it. The dirty laundry has surfaced because of the pandemic. We were capable and prepared with a lot of things and we were completely lost in space with so many other things, for example.
02:49:41
Speaker
So there's a lot, you know, the pandemic is an opportunity. It's just like war. There's so many things that begin and start after a war ends, for example, through the utter destruction. Like look at our technology, for example, like the boom of it was the last big war of humanity that brought us to the moon. It was a war.
02:50:03
Speaker
And so many other things. It brings us all together now. Correct. Yes, of course. And we can actually... It is? Yeah, go on. Yes. No, ladies first. I think it's another pandemic. The pandemic of postponement is another one that is... It's kind of like the same... What do you mean? The pandemic of postponement.
02:50:32
Speaker
our postponement. This idea that we have, that we will live forever, we can do it another day, we can postpone it for tomorrow, we can... No, yeah, you're right. This is a pandemic. Definitely. Definitely. It's like what I said before, don't leave stuff for tomorrow. You don't. Yes, exactly. You can't do it later. Do it now.
02:50:54
Speaker
It's something I think we all can relate to because we do it, others do it more, others do it less, whatever, differently. But there is this postponement and it is because we believe that, yes, it's gonna be here. We take things for granted. That's why we postpone. And I think this is what the pandemic came also to tell us that, okay, I'm not trying to idealize it.
02:51:20
Speaker
But it did give you a sense of finding that something sometimes ends. You cannot move as you used to. You cannot express yourself as you used to. You cannot work like you used to. And on the one hand, that makes you inventive. And on the other hand, it maybe makes you question what was really the reality I was living in all this time. I was living in. That's true. Yes, of course.
02:51:49
Speaker
And yeah, what do I want next? And then you start thinking really nice stuff like the mini diaries, for example, or whatever one comes up with. But the point is, yes. I think now we are in a shock, just like you say. It's a war situation, something like that. So what's the reaction? The reaction is that, first of all, we are in a bit of a shock. We don't really know this is happening. Is it happening? How is it happening? How does it feel while it's happening?
02:52:17
Speaker
And then we proceed into the actual, let's say, evolution of it. And that's, I think, the interesting part, what we are now going to do. Because, okay, there's been a lot of idealism, you know, you have a lot of time to think during the pandemic, are you going to follow through? Are we going to follow through? Thank you.
02:52:41
Speaker
No judgment there, but the point is, you know, can we really make it a good lesson? Because then that's when some things in the pandemic come positive to your question, when they become real and not just in the sphere of conversation or intellectualism or whatever that is.
02:52:59
Speaker
So I'm really looking forward to what's coming next because I think that a lot of people have come to realizations and that really fills my heart with joy, that there is consciousness, that there is this thinking about really, really principal things.
02:53:16
Speaker
And I'm really astonished at how people find new ways of coming together through podcasts, through travels and media diaries, through whatever have you. I mean, there is this burst of creativity and I want to focus on that.
02:53:34
Speaker
I think what you're saying now, and not that I'm sorry answering my own question from earlier about the community, but I think I kind of am anyway, but you have already given a great answer, but I'm just adding on to that, is really what you just said is absolutely true. We have so many tools at our disposal now.
02:53:54
Speaker
More than ever, we can think about digitalism and all of this and whatever it comes with and whatever kind of flavors. The reality though is that we have so many ways of expressing ourselves, so many ways of connecting with each other.
02:54:14
Speaker
We know the, a lot of us at least know the challenges that social media and all that brings with it, that not everything is just golden and shiny and great. But despite that, with a healthy amount of skepticism or at least
02:54:32
Speaker
weariness as well. We still have great tools that are at our disposal to tell a story that will be received by somebody on the other side of the globe and vice versa. I think this is extremely important, that it's not just going one way, but it's going the other way as well, that it's a two-way conversation. And I think we have never been more connected than that, and this is one of the opportunities. I do believe to some degree that through this pandemic, I see it a lot of the times
02:55:02
Speaker
at least in my bubble, so to say, that there are people that are using those tools to reach out to one another. And I think that's already a very good starting point to form that narrative that I was referring to early on as well.
02:55:23
Speaker
to build it together because it's not about someone building the one narrative for everybody. It will obviously be something that is a collective
02:55:33
Speaker
endeavor. It's a collective enterprise. Everybody is part of it. And we can only create a collective community or a global community if we're all part of the conversation. And at least we know now out of this pandemic that the tools we need to do that, they're already in place and they're working. Maybe that to me is one of the things that I will take away from this conversation.
02:55:56
Speaker
A lot more. Don't get me wrong, I mean, I'll take a lot more things away from this conversation. But just regarding this one question that I asked you, this is what I'll take away from it. Yes. Yes, let's see what happens. But the good thing is, whatever happens, is this what you said in the beginning, George, it's about acceptance, I think. It's about, okay, even if things don't really go exactly as we planned, and it's not such an ideal society after the pandemic.
02:56:23
Speaker
It's okay. We have to learn somehow to love that as well and get on. And we have to adapt and evolve accordingly. Yes. And get on. Yes.
02:56:35
Speaker
and get on with it and also accept that okay, maybe things might not go ideally like they never were anyway. But to be more conscious about it and more often and things will be okay. I think the idea of community is super essential right now because many of us are struggling to get by. I really hope that this will make us more honest with each other.
02:57:00
Speaker
you know in our relationships in society just like we were on Easter as you said we were in our balcony sharing a common experience together let's make it more of a habit that's my really my wish to make it more of a habit of having these kinds of experiences together and that limitation can sometimes also be an opportunity in itself you know sometimes i feel that
02:57:26
Speaker
I have this feeling a lot of the times when I go and visit Netflix and until you start watching a movie, an hour has passed because you're like, well, I have so many, I have so many choices. What is it going to be? I don't know. You go to the supermarket instead of just getting a milk. You're just like.
02:57:45
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. By the time the movie, you've decided on the movie, you're asleep, right? And by the time you've decided on what milk to buy in the supermarket, you're like, okay, maybe it's going to be yogurt. It reminds me of a speech, one of this
02:58:06
Speaker
I don't really know how to pronounce that and she was somewhere in Tibet or something she was saying okay there was this one shop with one brand of cookies you just ask for cookies you were out there in three seconds.
02:58:18
Speaker
That's it. There was no thinking about what cookies to buy. And now you're in this supermarket corridor with 100 grams of cookies with all different flavors. You spend 10 minutes looking at cookies. What is your brain occupied with?
02:58:32
Speaker
Yes. I mean, put it down in all its complexity and, you know, different interpretations of it on a daily basis without the variety of choices, the quality of choices you have to make. And then what is really your brain preoccupied with?
02:58:49
Speaker
Yes. It takes it away from what you originally set it out to be. What it's supposed to do, yes. And I think therefore limitation in itself can be an opportunity in this time and age and in this particular geographical location that we are in, that I am in at least, where I have everything aplenty. I think this limitation can also be an opportunity itself. Let's see.
02:59:15
Speaker
Let's see. Exactly. Let's see. So now this is my last question to you today and then we will let you go into the night. Cheers to the last question. Cheers. Cheers to that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But I like how it cheers. Yamas. Yamas filimu, efker isso parapuli. Yamas, pitishan.
02:59:37
Speaker
Oh my god this is getting so interesting. I would like to know just and this is really right at the end now. What? You've done so much work there. Yes and as usual it just you know disappeared into thin air.
03:00:02
Speaker
It didn't go as planned. It never does. But I would like to know from you, George, what music are you listening to right now? What is the one, the song or the album where you're like, or playlist even, where you're like, wow, that's really getting me through the day. I actually have my own list that I use to take me through the day, depends on the day.
03:00:29
Speaker
But it's African music, actually, what I'm listening to. All right. Any recommendations? Any specific recommendations? I don't know. You can go for Azawade. It's an amazing song. It's so calming. Actually, music from Mali and the area around there, I find to be probably
03:00:55
Speaker
One of the best music you can find in Africa, one of the best by far. It's so calm. Yes, but they have great, a nice jam and a lot. I used to dance a lot of music. There is so much stuff in Africa in terms of music. It's like all over the place. Zimbabwe has, South Africa has, Gambia has, Ghana has. It's like Morocco. It's endless. It's an endless universe of music. I don't think a lifetime is enough.
03:01:22
Speaker
to discover all of what Africa has to do with music. But I have certain artists I go for and I've made my own lists on Spotify. And I just play them when I feel like I need a bit of a boost. I'll go for African music.
03:01:41
Speaker
Do you like Sona Jobartek? Do you know here? Sona Jobartek is my new favorite. I know. I've played Sona Jobartek so many times on my show and I've actually been lucky enough to see Sona Jobartek performing live.
03:01:56
Speaker
I love her. I don't just love her music. I love everything she stands for as a woman. She's a role model, basically, right? Because I think she's the first woman to play the Gora, which has been
03:02:14
Speaker
which is like a traditional musical. Yes, yes. And a beautiful, we will put the link. We will put the link to the Sonal Jobartes. Of course we will. You know which one, you're bored of listening to it, but yes. No, I'm not. I love it. He scared this album. I absolutely love it. It's just that sometimes Vicky just doesn't listen to anything else for months, but I still love it.
03:02:35
Speaker
She broke the rules and she said because this the Gora is supposed to be an instrument only played by men and it's the way to play it is passed on from one generation to the next and she is the one who said you know what guys no I'm gonna play it as well and boy does she play the Gora she is amazing absolutely I'll never forget her and her performance
03:03:00
Speaker
is mesmerizing. It's breathtaking. You can't even create the sound. You just sit there and you are like, wow, what am I listening to? What am I looking at right now? And she's like so calm and serene on stage. And her fingers are like, this is all the gora. And the music she creates, it's unbelievable. Unbelievable, I tell you.
03:03:29
Speaker
I really can't wait for a life of, and I actually wrote here once on Facebook, please come to Greece and for fun, you know, I was one of those ones going, whatever, why not? You never know. Yeah, true. That is a spirit. There's a big audience for you here and all of that. It's my dream to see you, you know, like the little fun.
03:03:51
Speaker
It's a big audience, meaning at least I am going to be there. I think she will enchant people with her music. She will definitely. And you know, another kind of music that I love from Africa, pygmy music. If you haven't experienced music from the pygmy tribes, I think your brain is going to explode when you first listen to it.
03:04:18
Speaker
It's an experience in itself, music from the Pygmies. Because they have this traditional way of polyphonic music, so they don't really have instruments.
03:04:31
Speaker
The main instruments are vocals from different people coming together, all of them singing in different keys and notes. And what struck me as extremely interesting and fascinating about pygmy music is that they make very basic instruments out of the natural elements they had around them. So for example, instead of drums, they have a very specific way of clapping their hands on the water, on the surface of the water on lakes and ponds.
03:05:00
Speaker
And they create a drumming sound that is so, it's like a signature sound of Pikmin music. And when it all comes together, it's thrilling. And they have this other instrument that I don't remember what it's called, but it's like a hue and it has one chord only. And the guy is pulling it from one side with his hand and they use a small stick to hit it back and forth.
03:05:30
Speaker
I just post for one because it's a sound that I had never ever heard before in my life. It was a new sound. Do you know the feeling of discovering a new taste? For example, imagine a kid first time tasting chocolate. It's exactly the same with a new sound. You're like, oh my God, this is awesome. I don't want this to end. So that's how it goes with pygmy music, actually. There's a lot of good stuff out there. A lot of good stuff.
03:05:58
Speaker
I had the same experience in Ghana, not when we were there together on another trip, when I first heard Gonzen, which is like they made it out of something like a turtle shell, and they use horse care for strings, and it's something like a sitar, but they also use, how do you call this thing?
03:06:21
Speaker
No, no the cello like in the violin you have something to stretch to play the chords with
03:06:30
Speaker
How do you call this? The whatever. The whatever. Exactly. It's called the whatever. Yeah, to do that. And it was the first time where I heard this sound. And I was like, it really just runs through me. And then I actually ordered one of these instruments. And I haven't ever seen. Unfortunately, I cannot play this instrument. But I'm really hoping that somebody will come over to my place at some point and play that gondae. Because the feeling of the new sound is like,
03:06:59
Speaker
Yes, I think it's more than just food. It's called a violin bow, by the way. It's a totally different experience. No, and it's unique. Absolutely. Yes, African music. It's just beautiful. If you have a link of a good sample of pygmy music, maybe we could share it on the podcast. That would be really nice. That would be really nice. I will send you right away.
03:07:27
Speaker
OK, I mean, I don't know if we're prepared. That's so spontaneous and sudden. But OK, we will accommodate it. No problem. All right. That would be fantastic, actually. Because I don't think I've ever listened to it. So that would be an absolutely new experience. I've seen some. I wanted to go to Tanzania. There is a specific tribe there anyway about a conservation project. But we'll make another podcast about it. But generally, the pygmy culture is super, super rich.
03:07:57
Speaker
and beautiful, and there is some heavy marginalization there, but the diversity in their cultures and how they really intertwine with nature and their habitats, it's just mind-blowing. So yes, pygmy culture, absolutely. And pygmy music, we'd love to hear that.
03:08:19
Speaker
There's a very interesting project, if you want, about the
The Sounds of Pygmy Music Project
03:08:22
Speaker
pygmy music. It's called Baka and Beyond. Baka is a tribe. Yes, it is the Baka tribe. It's the Baka and Baka. So look it up on Spotify. It's called Baka and Beyond. And there's this couple from the UK, I think, they're musicians or something. And they traveled and they lived with the pygmies for a year, I think, recording their music.
03:08:47
Speaker
and they created albums available on Spotify that you can listen to them.
03:08:52
Speaker
And what they've done very successfully was bring together the traditional pygmy sounds in a more modernized fashion, so to speak. The end result, guys, is awesome. It's absolutely awesome. So check it out. It is exactly the time where I was looking at because I was very interested in how they... Because now they're evicted from their territories and there is...
03:09:22
Speaker
Yeah, all this situation going on. So I was mostly interested in it from a filmic point of view. But on the other hand, the music is the best way to get there sooner. So absolutely. Oh, I mean, I can just stretch. I have to stress one more time that when we were on your radio show off the beaten track, which I have to read by the way, every Thursday night between
03:09:49
Speaker
tell me again european central european time is it's every tuesday not thursday you guys go live on thursday yeah you guys go live on thursday i go on tuesday after after i called after i called bob fonzie already today i mean it just shows how self-absorbed i am anyway so every tuesday
03:10:09
Speaker
I don't know. It's 10, 10 PM to midnight GMT plus two. Right? So I'm still at all. Okay. So yes. Yes. I think that that says it all. Yeah. Yes. I'm using the Greenwich meantime still. I, I'm a very old school guy when it comes to that kind of stuff.
03:10:35
Speaker
I don't think it's just old school. I think it's also very practical because it is in the end. It's you know Yes, we niche me time. So so that's that's how that all that shit started basically. So so yeah, I think that's fair enough So it's like, you know, you guys figure it out wherever you are in the world, you know, yeah T plus was to whatever and thank you. Yeah
03:10:59
Speaker
Exactly. So you can listen to it there and you won't regret it. It's absolutely fantastic because we really enjoyed the trip that you took us on. It was amazing. Sometimes in between our conversation when you put on some music and also before when you paved the road, like you said, that was wonderful as well. The music you played was just absolutely beautiful. It's taking you on a trip. You're traveling in your mind.
03:11:27
Speaker
It's the cultural diversity, the abundance of human creation, like I said in the beginning as well. You're putting it all there and therefore I cannot recommend it enough to go and listen to Off The Beaten track on Nowhere Radio with you every Tuesday on GMT plus whatever wherever you are. Exactly. Go check it out and it's absolutely wonderful.
03:11:56
Speaker
I think we've covered a lot of ground today. That was a very long ride in the Leil event story in the yellow van, but in the best possible way, a very long trip with you. It was absolutely wonderful. Yes. Yes. Yes. It's a good thing.
03:12:15
Speaker
You just broke a record, my friend. You broke the Fonzie record for the moment. You are the Fonzie record holder. Yes, absolutely. Congratulations. Absolutely. Not that, to be honest, I don't think that we're trying to break a record every day now, every time we record. No, but when it happens, we celebrate. But when it happens, it happens, and we celebrate exactly. In that sense, here's to that. Cheers. Cheers. Uzo Martini, we're living it up, right? We're totally living it up.
03:12:55
Speaker
Tough life. So tough. I mean, what can I say? You guys have been amazing. Thank you so much. Was that a bit too much? That me hitting my fist on the table? Do your thing. Okay, fine. Thank you. You guys have been absolutely wonderful. It was so much fun. So in closing, I would just like to say everybody, please.
03:13:08
Speaker
We're living the life. This is the life. This is us working. This is us working really hard.
03:13:19
Speaker
check out the mini diaries on YouTube. I will link to that. There is a lot more content to come. There's already a lot of content on there.
03:13:28
Speaker
wonderful things to learn. If you are a mini lover, especially, I cannot recommend it highly enough because you will learn a lot of things about how to fix your car and so many more things. And yes, that's it. I think any last words from you guys? I think I really like Bob after watching the series and all of that. I've never met Bob, I have to say. I only know George.
03:13:56
Speaker
But now I know I have a lot to learn about George. I only know him only. So yes, no, absolutely. It's been a pleasure. He is one of the people who I really appreciate and feel very lucky for having in my life and for having some common experiences with and having this podcast together. It was really one of them.
03:14:20
Speaker
And you guys just reconnected, right? I mean, you hadn't been in touch for some time now, right? Yes, our time is a bit different. But I think we appreciate each other anytime. That's true.
03:14:36
Speaker
You know for me one of the things from my side is it was just wonderful to see that how you guys value each other. That was really absolutely wonderful as well for me. It is all about all the scanning I think which is a dedicated podcast and of course what happened after that because that was the beginning of a very beautiful connection and then individual connections happened and there was this whole mess around it and beautiful life happening
03:15:00
Speaker
and all of that.
Closing Reflections: Dreams and Connections
03:15:02
Speaker
So, but the beautiful thing is that, you know, people go different roads. They lead the, you know, their own bubbles. You know, we're all in our own bubbles, but when we have some moments, we just mingle with other bubbles and get all bubbles together in a nice bubble bath. And we're bubbling up. Exactly.
03:15:24
Speaker
You just poured it so beautifully with a bubble bath. That was just so poetic as well. I couldn't have said it better myself, like, honestly. Yes, I mean, really. It's just like... I mean, what do you do with all these bubbles? They're flying all over my room now. Bubbles.
03:15:42
Speaker
What do you do with all the bubbles? You put them together in a bubble bath. That is one of the most creative approaches to the whole thing of being in your own bubble that I've ever heard. Thank you very much. You know, so whatever you feel that you're trapped in your own bubble, just think of it as a bubble bath. Invite other bubbles in and it's going to be your own advantage. I believe so much and so much fun. Exactly. So George, thank you so much. Anything you would like to say in closing this ride in the yellow van?
03:16:10
Speaker
Well, I'm pretty sure there's some things I would... No pressure. No pressure. No, no, no, no. Nor will you say. But there's one thing I really want to say is despite the hardships of pandemic or no pandemic out there, it's really important to have dreams, not just one, a lot of them. It's the best fuel that keeps your inner flame alight through life. So...
03:16:39
Speaker
Dreams, guys, a lot of them. Doesn't matter if you actually see them through all of them, but at least one you will see through, so it's cool to have them. That's how the mini-diaries started anyway. Damn, that's how a lot of things happened in my life. They all started from a dream, so dream up. That's it. I'm done.
03:17:01
Speaker
And I'm drunk as well. Mike's drunk. Too many martinis tonight. So all of us here, and this is a tradition basically on the yellow van. Basically at the end of the interview, you have to be drunk, otherwise it didn't really happen. But if there's one thing that I want to add to what you just said is that
03:17:20
Speaker
Yeah, have dreams. And if the one thing that I take away from our conversation today is that in order to have those dreams and to see them come to fruition, you sometimes have to face your own fears. And I think you are a perfect example of that.
03:17:37
Speaker
And actually, you know what, based on what he just said, I'm going to use a quote from someone who actually really did change my life for the best and made me realize that. And you know, he told me once that, you know what, George, I was very conflicted and confused and whatever, and troubled back in Barcelona. He said, you got to do something with yourself. Because he said, in a heart full of fears, there's no room for dreams.
03:18:03
Speaker
And he was so right about that. He was absolutely right about it. And I try never to forget that. It's not tattooed anywhere yet, but it's a quote that I always give me wherever I go. Yeah, that's it. That's one of a quote. I'm done.
03:18:22
Speaker
I think we're done. That's one of our quotes. Okay, fine. So, that's it. Let's follow the mini diaries and so on. Thank you so much for having us. Well, no, it's the other way around. Thank you so much for coming with us in the Yellow Van today. George, it was an absolute pleasure. And thank you for coming. We will do it again sometime. We should. Oh, come on. Without you, the Yellow Van would have been empty. Totally empty. I'm totally done for it, man. Just name the date.
03:18:50
Speaker
Excellent. It would be great after the mini diaries if they are ever... maybe we meet you along the way, maybe we meet you at the end of the ride if you decide to have an end on that ride. So let's just leave it open. But we are sure that Fonz and Bob will meet at some point. And that will be our next podcast.
03:19:14
Speaker
Absolutely. So, latest we meet again when you have returned to Thessaloniki. Or not. Maybe you decided to start a life somewhere else. This is definitely a possible outcome of this. We won't know, but until we know, we will have you as a guest again. Absolutely. Anytime.
03:19:39
Speaker
And it was such a pleasure. George, take care and all the best for your journey with Bob. OK, guys, thank you very much and thank you for your wishes and all the best for you guys as well. And give a big hug to Fonzie whenever you see Fonzie again. But yeah, hopefully we will bump each other on the road. And this is the end of this week's trip in the yellow van.
03:20:05
Speaker
All information about George and his exciting upcoming trip with Bob will be provided in the show notes along with all other relevant links to today's conversation. Thank you all very much for coming along on The Yellow Van today. We hope you enjoyed your time on the road with us. We sure enjoyed our time with you.
03:20:24
Speaker
If you feel I missed some essential questions or follow-ups, like I'm sure I did, send them to us and we will have them answered for you. If you have your own inspiring story to tell, or you know somebody who does, get in touch with us on yellowvanestories.com, where you can also leave us your general feedback or ideas for improvements. The hashtags for this show, learning on the job, and stronger together are no coincidence.
03:20:52
Speaker
If you want to support Fonzie with a bit of petrol money, you can do so on buymeacoffee.com forward slash yellowvan or you can leave us a review on our website or the podcast platform of your choice. This podcast is a Mind the Bump production.
03:21:11
Speaker
We hope to welcome you back next week for a brand new episode. We'll be keeping your seat, and we'll be cooling that imaginary drink of your choice. Please note, a selection of teas and instant coffee is available as well. Some of you might just be starting your day, depending on what side of the planet you are on. Until then, stay healthy, keep loving, and always remember, we roll in this together. Now, take it away Jim.
03:22:11
Speaker
But my message is clear Keep loving in the face of fear
03:22:20
Speaker
Oh, you're standing for your rights It's the fact of your life Oh, you're standing for your rights It's the fact of your life Oh, you're standing for your rights It's the fact of your life
03:23:12
Speaker
You stand is