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The Truth Of The Matter is - Episode: 125 Bible Study Reflection Solo or W/Friends - Kimberly Boggio
19 Plays1 year ago
Bible study reflection solo or with friends is an inspirational segment for me as a result of getting together for bible study with friends Erik and Jennifer while still having more to say. Thus far, the segment has been about unpacking different passages of scripture read in bible study and feeling the need to explore it even more deeply. After having a good conversation with Anna, a friend of mine, I decided to open up the flexibility in this segment by addressing questions and concepts in the bible. This week, I spoke with a new friend of mine, Kimberly Boggio who has her own podcast called (guide4truth). We discussed the concept of the rapture and end times. Does scripture support it ? Tuning in may encourage you to have these tough conversations. Remember there's nothing wrong with having healthy conversation with your brothers and sisters in Christ. I hope Kimberly and I have provided a great example of that today for you!
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Transcript
Introduction and Overview
00:00:01
Speaker
This is the Two for the Matters podcast. I'm your host, Jonathan, and I'm welcoming you back for another edition of Bible study, Reflections, Solo, or with Friends. Now, I've mentioned before that this segment was inspired based upon a conversation that I have with my friend, Eric and Jen. However, today I've also made mention that
00:00:24
Speaker
I would also entertain the possibility of discussion questions along with other topics within this segment.
Respectful Disagreement about the Rapture
00:00:31
Speaker
And without further ado, I want to let you know that this conversation that I had with a new friend of mine, her name is Kimberly. She also has a podcast as well. And we end up discussing the end times.
00:00:44
Speaker
and a rapture, whether or not it's true, whether or not scripture backs it up. Now, of course, I want to be clear. We both have respect for one another. However, we disagree on this issue. And the most important thing is I want to encourage and let people know that you should be able to have healthy conversation back and forth with your brother or sister. And there are going to be points in times that you don't agree, but that shouldn't ruin the friendship and relationship that you have.
Is the Rapture and End Times the Same?
00:01:13
Speaker
So with that being said, I encourage you to tune in, hear both sides and then decide whether or not you agree. Yes, I was saying to you.
00:01:34
Speaker
I think our conversation got started because you said that you didn't believe in a pre-trib rapture, but I think what I needed to understand is, do you take the end times in a rapture to mean the same thing or you think they're two distinct different events?
Perspectives on the Rapture
00:01:54
Speaker
Let me start by asking you that question. Well, before I answer that, maybe I need to ask some questions too. A lot of times when people
00:02:06
Speaker
define the rapture, most of the time they're talking about a pre-tribulation rapture, meaning
00:02:14
Speaker
it's before the Great Tribulation. It's kind of like the Left Behind series that came out, right? And so all of a sudden one day you'll wake up and then people will be gone, they'll be disappeared and you don't know where they went and that kind of thing. And so is that the pre-trib rapture that you were talking about or is that a different event that you're talking about?
00:02:37
Speaker
So what I was saying is, if we're talking about the end times, then it's four different perspectives. There's the pre-trip, they call it the pre-trip historical pre-millennium perspective, and you have something called the a-millennium perspective.
00:02:57
Speaker
then you have something called the post millennium perspective and then you have something called the modern pre millennium perspective so that's why I was trying to understand when you mentioned the when you were mentioning the creation of the pre millennium perspective there's a modern perspective that was created in the 18 to 17 to 1800s by students
00:03:22
Speaker
But the one that I was speaking about was more in reference to the historical held belief at the early church in comparison to the more modern pre-millenial perspective, which gives two distinctions on what happened. So they think that I believe it happens before the tribulation, there's a rapture. And then after the tribulation, they believe Christ comes back down and then
00:03:49
Speaker
the second coming is when that
Scriptural Interpretations of End Times
00:03:51
Speaker
occurs. So that's why I was asking if we're talking about end times, then I think there's a distinction in scripture. If we're talking about rapture, then I think there's a distinction in scripture because some people get them confused because they think they go together. But I think for the most part, they don't go together. I think one is an event and one is something that just happens.
00:04:15
Speaker
Scripture defines it as something that happens at the drop of the dime and there is no event. It's just something in which I gave you a list of scriptures that kind of point more to what's been consistent because I believe that the Bible is full of patterns, principles, and precepts and the patterns that continuously happen kind of give you a map out
00:04:38
Speaker
in terms of what we can consider as something that's been consistent with things when it comes to God does something so then we can rely upon that consistency. So it doesn't come off as something that's out of the blue. So if we're looking at it from there.
00:04:56
Speaker
I think there isn't two comings. I think there's one coming. There's a difference between meeting Christ in the air and then Christ setting foot on the earth. And I think they talk about that in Zechariah 14.4, where it kind of builds up an explanation of what that actually looks like when Christ returns.
00:05:18
Speaker
That's kind of where it is. So that's what I was trying to understand. Because if you're viewing the one and the same, then it wouldn't make sense. But I don't think the pre-trip and the rapture are the same event. I believe that they happen. I believe it happens before the tribulation.
Origins of Dispensationalism
00:05:35
Speaker
Because I think that's when we bring up the rapture perspective, where you have what is considered the pre-trip, what is considered the middle, or what they call the mid-trip, and then the post.
00:05:48
Speaker
So then it's like, Yeah, because the post, the post doesn't believe that there are 70 years that where all the stuff will transpire. The men believes that Christ is going to get his church, I think it's 3.5 years.
00:06:02
Speaker
And then the pre-trib believes that Christ is going to wrap to the church so that they don't have to deal with the tribulation. I think the tribulation is necessary for the Jewish people, right? Because I think if you're looking at the church and then you're looking at the Jewish nation, they're not one in the same.
00:06:21
Speaker
Right? Because again, when people think about the judgment of God, it has nothing to do with our judgment in terms of our salvation. But I think the association with the judgment is much more as to what have you done here on earth with the gifts, talents and abilities that I've given you. So that's where we get that in Revelation 19. Because also same concept, we're talking about the
00:06:44
Speaker
Rapture, Revelations, we don't hear anything about the church from Revelation 4 to Revelation 19, and that's during the tribulation period. So there's no scriptures that point out mentions of the church during that period in time. So obviously we aren't there when it's transpiring. So that's why I was like, I needed to understand, to at least understand from your perspective,
00:07:08
Speaker
Are you looking at it from there wanting the same to you? They're distinctly different. And I think from there, then we can, I guess we can kind of tackle the issue. So I think one of the things to, um, that may help clarify a little bit of where my, my standing is, is a lot, I believe it's based on some of the comments that you just made that you are dispensationalist, that you believe in dispensationalism. Is that right? Do you understand what that is?
00:07:38
Speaker
No, you have to explain that to me. Okay. So that is, that's probably where we need to start. And, um, so you can, so I can explain my position. Um, I'm, I'm definitely not a dispensationalist. Okay. I will go, I'm going to let scripture interpret what happens at the end time.
00:07:58
Speaker
And I believe that there are, even though maybe from Revelation to whatever you said from chapter five through 19, it doesn't describe a rapture period or anything like that during that time, I do believe that there's other scriptures that do talk about exactly the events and the timing of those events.
Hermeneutics and Scripture Interpretation
00:08:23
Speaker
Dispensationalism is a doctrine that started with, kind of goes back to a guy by the name of John Darby, okay? And I would encourage you to research this for yourself too, because I have done a lot of research on this. But John Darby was, kind of came from, what was the name? I have my notes here. Do you mind if I look at my notes? Okay.
00:08:48
Speaker
Okay, I'm still trying to understand what is what do you mean by this? Yeah, dispensational. Okay. So, um, let's see.
00:09:05
Speaker
Okay, so the origins of dispensationalism as we understand it today are typically traced back to John Nelson Darby, a member of the Plymouth brethren who began to form and propagate his distinctive apocalyptic interpretations in the 1830s.
00:09:22
Speaker
around the same time or perhaps just after a woman from Scotland who was part of the wider Christian revivalist movement named Margaret McDonald had a vision and in her vision she revealed what she believed was a spiritual insight about the return of Christ. One of the key elements from her vision
00:09:42
Speaker
was the concept of a rapture in which she saw a select group of faithful Christians being caught up with Christ prior to his return. McDonald's vision were unusual at the time and later became influential, particularly her description of the rapture. However, it's crucial to note that her account doesn't clearly align with the pre-tribulation rapture concept
00:10:08
Speaker
common in the future dispensationalist movement. This along with the timing of her prophetic vision relative to the development of dispensationalism has made her role in the history of that movement complex and somewhat contested. However, the elements of this vision have progressed into the modern doctrine of the rapture during John and then
00:10:32
Speaker
And then it goes into explain John Darby, he travels, he basically takes that concept of Margaret McDonald and creates the doctrine around it. And he does travel to the US and where he has great influence by C.I. Scofield, who is the author of the Scofield Bible, which I'm sure you're probably familiar with. No, so I'm not I'm not a sensationalist.
00:11:00
Speaker
because the evidence that we have of the rapture itself is in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 verse 16 through 17. So you can look that up. And to be caught up in the air means to be taken. So we can check that out. So that's where the original concept of the rapture came from. 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 verse 16 through 17. That's where it originally came from.
00:11:26
Speaker
And I'm going to share with you a lot of other verses too, that could probably help us kind of bridge the gap where we're at, you know, where our thoughts are. But I do want to share with you the four points of modern dispensationalism and let me know if this is something that you agree with, okay? Because this will help me understand too. So one of the one of the key
00:11:50
Speaker
emphasis of dispensationalists are the literal interpretation of the Bible. So most inspecialists follow a literal interpretation of the Bible, especially when it comes to Bible prophecies and apocalyptic literature. Okay.
00:12:06
Speaker
Um, and yes, I do agree with that too. So in, if, if I'm not going to say I'm not, I don't agree with some parts of dispensationalism, but, um, for the whole, you haven't actually told me what it is.
00:12:22
Speaker
Oh, I will. I will. I just have to lay the groundwork because if you make a statement and then try to defend it, it's a lot harder. So if we can get some context around it, then we can have, I feel like we could have a better dialogue. But the second point, there's a total of five points I want to make here. So the second point of emphasis of dispensationalism is distinguish between Israel and the church.
00:12:52
Speaker
A key tenet of dispensationalism is the belief that God has two separate but parallel means of working, one through the church and one through Israel. They believe God's promises to Israel are literal and will be fulfilled in the future.
00:13:08
Speaker
Okay, so that's the second point. Third point is the rapture before the tribulation. Generally, dispensationalists hold to a pre-tribulation rapture position stating that the church, Christians living and dead, will be caught up, raptured, to meet Christ before a period of severe tribulation on earth.
00:13:29
Speaker
This interpretation derives from a literal reading of 1 Thessalonians 4, 15 through 17, and Matthew 24, 21, among other passages, and that's the one that you just quoted. Pre-millennialism is the fourth point. Pre-millennialism. Dispensationalists often believe in pre-millennialism, meaning that Christ will return prior to the millennium, a thousand year rule, and establish a literal kingdom on earth.
00:13:56
Speaker
Okay, and then the 5th point is dispensations. Dispensationalists see human history as divided into different dispensations or periods during which God interacts with people in specific ways. These periods include the age of innocence, Adam and Eve.
00:14:17
Speaker
Conscience, human government, promise, law, grace is the current age, and the future kingdom. It's important to note that there's a fair bit of diversity within modern dispensationalism, just like any theological perspective. There are some disagreements about the specifics of these tenets, and with movements like progressive dispensationalism, some aspects are being reinterpreted or emphasized differently.
00:14:44
Speaker
So those are the five points or the five key beliefs of dispensationalism, okay? I'm a believer that they're pretty much all one in the same events and it just happens right one after the other. Why do I say this? Because if you look at some of some scriptures that I'm going to give you and
00:15:13
Speaker
We're going to talk about him so first that our second Thessalonians to let me see if I can find the verse here. First Thessalonians to let me look it up real quick.
00:15:30
Speaker
Sorry, I was kind of prepared, but not as much on all the scriptures. Cause with me, when I read the Bible, I read it as a story. I don't, I don't pull out verse by verse, by verse sometimes, because I feel like sometimes what happens is we were dissecting the scripture so much that we don't really understand the full context of what's being read or what's being written. So forgive me for that. If you don't mind me asking you, do you have a, what is your basic urban newest?
00:15:59
Speaker
What's my basic what? Hermeneutic. What do you mean by hermeneutic? Have you ever heard of hermeneutics? I've heard of it, but I don't know what you mean by it. Have you talked about my doctrine, but what my statement of faith would be? No, no, no. Hermeneutics, anybody that's ever gone to theology or is looking at scripture,
00:16:26
Speaker
They, everyone has a basic or basic standard of hermeneutics, hermeneuces, rules and regulations, how to read things in context and interpret it around the context within the scripture. So there's a hermeneux for history, there's a hermeneux for
00:16:45
Speaker
physics, there's a concept and a process of Herman Nukes for anything in regards of rules and regulations that don't allow you to color outside the lines. So I'll give you some examples about what I mean by Herman Nukes. So there are a set of rules and regulations when you read scripture that if you're reading it in the correct context, you won't color outside of context. So I'll give you an example.
00:17:14
Speaker
So you have worldview, right? Worldview is the relatable times and periods within which they live. So when you read the text, every chapter,
Influence of Doctrine on Scripture Understanding
00:17:25
Speaker
every book in the Bible begins with what they considered the background information.
00:17:32
Speaker
which means that when you read something, you understand who was it written to. So that's where you have the purpose. Why was it written? You have the theme, right? The main element of the text. You have the audience who is addressing. You have the context. You have what they call supportive texts, right? Where you notice that there are portions of scripture where, I'll give you an example.
00:17:55
Speaker
James chapter 1, where it says, consider it pure joy, accountable joy when you face challenges and tribulations and know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Let perseverance finish his work so you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. If anyone lacks anything, let them ask God who gets generously without finding fault.
00:18:16
Speaker
There's another passage in Romans chapter five verse three to five where it says rejoicing your sufferings. So the two key elements is sufferings because it says rejoicing your sufferings because do your sufferings, your experience, what they would call
00:18:31
Speaker
Joy, you know, let me see, rejoicing your sufferance because through the rejoicing of your sufferance, you produce perseverance, character, hope. Hope doesn't put you to shame because the Holy Spirit has been poured out onto you. Those are two supported texts that support one another, even those two different writers, that's what they're saying. So that's what they will be classified as supportive texts. Then you have original language, right? We know the Bible was written in
00:18:58
Speaker
Aramaic and Hebrew translated in Greek, some in Latin, right? And then you have what I would consider elements in the scriptures. So there are prejudices, which means Luke chapter 10, verse 27 to 31.
00:19:16
Speaker
where Jesus is talking to an expert in the law. In that conversation, what he says to him, he says, you're an expert in the law. How do you read it, right? Which means that there are certain prejudice and biases that when you read the text, it's coming from a specific, I want to say maybe character or group that would just believe that there's a prejudice. There's grammar, right? The grammar is necessary because if you have two quotas is probably in the sentence,
00:19:45
Speaker
or the certain comments, certain things mean certain things, but without the grammar, it'll be hard to distinguish the difference between the two. Then of course you have portions of scripture that are poetic, hyperbole, whether things we should take literal, symbolically, allegory metaphor.
00:20:04
Speaker
There's a lot of people I know that when they read the Bible, they don't consider anything I just said. So when you say you read it as a story, I'm wondering, are you reading it and not considering? It's sort of like God's character, right? There are sometimes we read scriptures and this is how you know the differences in the translations. A translation might say something.
00:20:29
Speaker
And if you take the way it was translated and be like, you know, this is what it says, you might sit there and be like, that's not consistent with God's character. So it can't necessarily mean that, right? Which means the way you're going into reading it. So prime example, there are examples in scripture that use the word pride, right? And the NIV, for an example.
00:20:52
Speaker
Now, we know with certainty that as believers, we're not supposed to be prideful in any case. We're not supposed to be boastful in any case in association with us. So if you're reading it, but you don't have a base to Herman knew it, like I just expressed, you can look at some scriptures completely misinterpreted and think it's about you in some cases. So that's why I'm asking you when you said you read it,
00:21:19
Speaker
And you read it as a story. There are a lot of times in scripture there's foreshadowing, there's hyperbole, which means another great example. And I'm not trying to go on Olympia. I guess I'm just trying to make the point. There's a passage in Mark where it talks about if you pick up snakes and stuff like that. It's a very text that a lot of people are questioning whether it comes from the original manuscripts or not.
00:21:48
Speaker
if you pick up snakes and stuff you're supposed to because you'll be healed and things like that. So I don't think that's a literal thing that we should do or gouge your eye out, right? So there's portions like that. So I'm just curious to know, you say you read it as a story, are you able to identify when those certain
00:22:10
Speaker
Texas, those certain approaches of a hermeneur comes in and say, this is probably what it means. This can't be what it means. This is not consistent. This is definitely not a literal thing. Like, how do you gauge that if you don't have a hermeneur?
00:22:25
Speaker
So, um, because I don't know the word hermeneutic doesn't mean that I don't use hermeneutics. Okay. Um, and this will be a perfect example of someone who never went to a theology school, but really does lean on the Holy Spirit to help interpret
Independent Bible Study Journey
00:22:44
Speaker
scripture. Right. So a lot of ways, yes, I do read it as a story, but yes, I want to take it in its full context, which means I want to know who it's being written to.
00:22:53
Speaker
I want to know if it's a statement of literal information, if it's a message, if it's not just who it was written to, but let's look at what was going on around that time. Like yesterday when I was looking at a passage in Thessalonians, I went and studied what was going on in Thessalonica when that church was
00:23:23
Speaker
when Paul was starting that church there. Because I think it helps when Paul's talking, this would be a good example, when Paul is talking about women and having them to be at home. A lot of women get frustrated about that and they don't understand it. But if they understood the context of what was happening in Thessalonica where a lot of women were deemed
00:23:45
Speaker
they were revered, right? They were the goddesses. They were the ones that were providing quote-unquote scripture, pagan scriptures, right? And so the women were in a different context as they were, you know, it was what Paul was trying to say there, right? He was giving some sort of context there. So now I want to talk to you about something too about poetic language, okay?
00:24:15
Speaker
What I've learned is yes, there is some poetic language in scripture, but when you speak a poetic language, it doesn't mean that you can't get a literal understanding of what the poem is about. For example, when you say roses are red and violets are blue, that's a poem, right? But are roses red? Yeah. Are violets blue?
00:24:39
Speaker
Yeah, so sometimes Christians use the excuse, oh that's poetic language so you can't take it literally. So I think we have to be careful sometimes when we're looking at those things that we're not just throwing something out
00:24:55
Speaker
because we're going to label it poetic language, okay? Yes, I do read through the King James Version most of the time. I will reference some other versions. I don't like most of the other versions just because of some of the deep research that I've done on the history behind the Greek
00:25:18
Speaker
there was a new Greek transcript that was created with Westcott and Hort. And I believe that they had some very nefarious things. They even talk about it in their writings to each other. And so then that's where a lot of these new versions of the
00:25:37
Speaker
translations of the Bible come from. So I take those very carefully. Now, do I think King James is all end all be all? No, I do think that there are some issues with that too. But I still think that the Holy Spirit can guide us into all truth, regardless of the nefarious men that have tried to, you know, Satan's use to try to
00:25:58
Speaker
corrupt God's word because I do believe that God's word is inherent. I do believe that he has preserved it, but we can't be ignorant to the fact that there are men that have tried to corrupt the scriptures. I mean, you can even go back into the restoration movement with the Catholic Church. They didn't even want people to even read the Bible. It's only been very recent that we've had that chance to do that. So I use the King James
00:26:26
Speaker
I go back to the Hebrew and to the Greek when there's a question or I feel like scripture is conflicted somehow, I will go back because I do believe, and this is part of the hermeneutics that you were talking about, that scripture can help you interpret scripture. There has to be at least two to three witnesses
00:26:47
Speaker
And so when you look at a scripture, you can find, most of the time, you can find where the apostles were talking about something because you can refer back to another scripture where they got that information from, right? So does that help you understand a little bit of where I'm coming from? No, I was just curious because you say you read out the story. So I just wanted to make sure that
00:27:13
Speaker
You know, because from what I've gathered too, Bible's not written in order. So we can't necessarily literally read it as a story, because we know that the book of Job is considered the oldest book, but that's not the first book that's mentioned.
00:27:27
Speaker
And, you know, whether or not why Romans, I believe Corinthians comes first before Romans. There's a lot of different questions about why it's a place. So I don't literally, I don't literally look at the scriptures in alphabetic order, but I do see that the secret of events.
00:27:45
Speaker
Just still be considered. So that's why I was just making sure I asked because it's always yeah, no, I appreciate I appreciate the clarity the clarifying because In my in my series visualizing the Bible series that I've started recording
00:28:01
Speaker
I am going to read through the Bible as a story, but you made a really good point is that everything is not in chronological order. And so what I want to try to help as I go through that is pull in the chronological part
00:28:20
Speaker
to give people a true understanding. So it helps them, you know, because it took just like you and I, we're still trying to decipher some of those things. And is it important? Sometimes I think it is just to have a more deeper understanding of what was happening in those times. But I do believe that the Holy Spirit will guide us and we can sharpen each other. Iron sharpens iron to get to that fine tuning, right? The fine tuning part. And what I think a lot of Christians
00:28:49
Speaker
focus on between other Christians is more the divisiveness of different doctrines.
Unity in Christian Truth
00:28:56
Speaker
Now, is that basically right? Highly held opinions. Okay, right. And now it does that to say that there isn't any need for that? No, absolutely not. Let me give you an example. Okay, because when someone's trying to really get to the truth,
00:29:11
Speaker
I've been listening to Dr. John Lennox. He is a, I believe he is a dispensationalist. He is a professor. He was a professor. He was a retired professor at Oxford and he was a mathematician, brilliant man. He is just, I mean,
00:29:30
Speaker
The way he speaks is so elegant, but he does a lot of debates with a lot of atheists and agnostics scientists, very famous ones like Richard Dawkins. And he made a point that is really stuck with me. He said, you know, because he talks a lot about getting to the truth of something, right?
00:29:52
Speaker
And he said, you know, I've got, I've got atheist friends, Jewish friends, and of course, my Christian friends, my Christians, my Christian friends believe that Jesus was God came on earth and died and was resurrected. My Jewish friends believe that he was a man, but didn't
00:30:13
Speaker
He and he died, but he didn't resurrect right? Oh, and he says my muslim friends my muslim friends believe that that he um lived But he wasn't god You know, so he goes now all three of those of those concepts cannot be true. Yes, right
00:30:32
Speaker
So when we're looking to get to the truth at something, instead of us kind of getting in our corner, kind of like a lawyer, right? You're going to be an attorney for a defendant or prosecutor. Your job, your sole purpose is to completely
00:30:51
Speaker
you know, exonify whatever party you're representing, right? It doesn't matter what the truth is, it matters what the jury believes the truth is, right? So, but when we're talking about getting to the truth, which is God, which is Jesus, then there can only be one, right?
00:31:13
Speaker
And so, when two Christians are divided in a subject, my hope is that we can have a conversation and really dive in. We've got to learn to put aside the doctrine and the beliefs, and that's really what I did, Jonathan, for almost a total of five years.
00:31:33
Speaker
I put away all commentaries, I put away all preachers, I put away all positive mental health books, and I literally read through the Bible over and over again in the middle of the night for five years straight.
00:31:47
Speaker
And what I would do is I would sometimes I would go through Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and then I'd get on a roll and I would do Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. So, um, and that five years I learned more about the word and scriptures than I ever did listening to.
00:32:05
Speaker
preacher or reading a self-help positive book because there's so much noise in the Christian community there's so much you know and that's what I'm talking about when I say someone pulls out a scripture you know and this happens in churches all the time they pull out a scripture or a few scriptures and then they preach a doctrine around those scriptures and most of those people sitting in those in the church pew don't even take the time to vet that and
00:32:33
Speaker
I mean, what does the scripture say? It says, prove all things, hold fast to that, which is good. Right. And so that's what I strive to do. And after that five year period of just really reading the Bible and going back and forth, back and forth, and realize, wow, there's so much amazing things in here that I never heard. I didn't, I didn't know because I,
00:32:59
Speaker
In some ways prior, I depended on my elders and my preacher and everybody else around me. If I didn't understand something, I would have gone to my dad. And now my dad comes to me because I realized that what my dad was telling me, it wasn't, I had a foundation, right? And I do believe that he does want to know the truth, but he's stuck in the doctrines that he learned and he memorized those doctrines.
00:33:28
Speaker
But that is not what the scriptures say. And so now when I talk to him, it's really difficult because he won't listen to me. He'll just regurgitate the doctrine that we were told since we were little, since I was little.
Personal Revelation in Scripture
00:33:42
Speaker
Does that make sense a little bit? No. What are your thoughts? Because I've been talking for a while. I mean, I think
00:33:56
Speaker
So there's a passage in Galatians that says, share every good thing with a teacher. Right. So I think for a lot of cases, you know, when it comes to dialoguing and hearing what is taught to you, of course, you should go back and check the scriptures for yourself. Right. Now, I do think that there's a point in which
00:34:24
Speaker
If there is a certain school of thought that's being presented to you, I think in a lot of cases, our understanding of that idea may not come right away because it may take some maturity. And in a lot of cases, there are a lot of deep things about scriptures that it kind of takes you a long time to grasp. So you mentioned earlier about
00:34:51
Speaker
eschatology, right? And there are some eschatologies out there that are wonky, that are just not true. And there's eschatologies that are rooted
00:35:05
Speaker
in certain church houses. And I think it's important that you go on the website and if they're on the website, you find out what their doctrinal beliefs are. And if it's consistent with scripture, and if it's not consistent with scripture, then I think you should leave. So yes, you read the scriptures for yourself.
00:35:25
Speaker
there should be a lockstep in belief that you're not totally relying upon the pastor every Sunday. I think your personal relationship with God stands alone. And more importantly, I think in the early church, before we had pastors, teachers, and evangelists and those things that speak about in Ephesians, we know that God gave those specific offices and people that operate in order to help elevate the church
00:35:56
Speaker
But I think what gets quite ignored is what Paul tells us at Second Corinthians, that you are the church too. It's not just a building, but you walk around as an ambassador and representative of Christ, which means you are constantly being watched. And the things you say, the things you do are in representation of God.
00:36:19
Speaker
So whether or not God meets people in the building or not, he also, you know, people encounter and run across you,
Community and Spiritual Growth
00:36:29
Speaker
which is why there are people that ask you for prayer, right? Because they know the prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. They ask you about certain things because if you're living, you know, if you're living a life that is quiet, you'd be curious about that. So yes, it's not just rooted in a building.
00:36:47
Speaker
and what their theology is. And I don't think, in some cases, I don't think as a whole of believers, we all have to be in lockstep with everything. I think that there are differences, of course, right? Everyone's trying to be on par with what truth is, but also wants to be seen as uniquely different to address certain issues that the body of Christ needs. And I understand that.
00:37:17
Speaker
Right. So I think that just takes some discernment, right? There are teaching ministries. I think people need teaching ministries, right? Some people are rather, you know, go to a teaching ministry versus other ministries that are, that emphasize prayer, that emphasize other things. So you sort of have to find your niche, one that you feel you're grown spiritually
00:37:41
Speaker
while being there versus stagnant or not growing. I don't think we grow in isolation, we grow in community. So I also think that if you're growing independently, you wanna make sure that the things you experience, you also share with your counterparts, people that are around you. And the inspiration for that is especially the conversation that Jesus had with Peter when he says, the devil seeks to have you, but I pray your faith not fail you.
00:38:08
Speaker
But specifically the NLT, it speaks about taking the experience that he's had and sharing what his brothers also explained very detailed in Second Phil. I think it's in Philippians.
00:38:24
Speaker
or second Corinthians, there's a portion of it that's expressed about taking the things that you experience personally, but also sharing with others, right? We should share all good things with people because we're all part of the body of Christ. And I don't think anything that's being shared or disseminated to the masses from God should be withheld from people's access because they need it. They need the information.
00:38:49
Speaker
In some cases, isolation is good, but in a lot of cases, you can't grow spiritually if you're only thinking about what you think, right? I think there's a reason why the scripture that says anytime two or three are gathered there, am I even going to miss? Because if you believe God is present in the conversation, then I believe the only truth that's going to be prevailed is God's truth, whether it comes from you or comes from the other person. And it's aligned with scripture.
Communication of Spiritual Messages
00:39:16
Speaker
I believe he's going to use one or two of you or a history to help guide us to where we need to be so that we can conclude. And if we don't agree, maybe maturity over time will shift your thinking so that you can come. There's another package in Corinthians that talks about those who think they know something don't yet know as they ought to know. And I think that a lot of us are in those situations where
00:39:41
Speaker
you know, whether it's wisdom or whether it's experience that lends a hand, and none of us should operate as if we have it or we know it, or I think that we should always be constantly learning, constantly developing, and constantly growing. And that has to do with keeping your eyes and ears open and receptive to the things that people share about either their reading of scripture, and Revelation to us comes instantly just like that.
00:40:11
Speaker
quickly in moments where you least expect it. So writing stuff. I agree with you. No, I agree with you 100% of what you said. And I do believe that God reveals things to people when at the right time when they can receive it. I mean, and sometimes they will get information from him.
00:40:30
Speaker
And it's just for them because they don't know how to go out and talk to someone about it because most of the people in their life are not ready to receive that message anyway, right? So yes, I believe that it's going to be a lifetime of constantly learning and growing, but that doesn't mean we can't come to an understanding of truth.
00:40:54
Speaker
I really do believe that. I mean, we know that truth. And why is that? Because we know exactly what truth is. We know that it's Jesus. We know that, you know, he's the word, the truth, and the life. So if we're following him, we're going to be guided into all truth, right? By the Holy Spirit. So yes, I do believe that. It's just unfortunate that there's so much dogmatic theology.
00:41:21
Speaker
Yes, and that unfortunately is I'm going to pray for those people, obviously, and hope that they will come to an open mind about some of these things, you know.
00:41:37
Speaker
I also think like what you were saying about the uniqueness. I think we all have, God uses us in our uniqueness to be able to, we may be saying the same thing, but I have a different way of saying something. You have a different way of saying something. And just like, who was the guy that I just watched? Stephen Smith or the third eye?
00:42:00
Speaker
Third Adam, Spencer Smith. He has a different way of communicating, right? So like when I was watching him, I was just like, right on, right on. I already have that in my notes and I've already started writing some of those things. It doesn't mean that I just, I put everybody towards Spencer Smith, right? Because some people will be receptive to it and some people won't.
00:42:28
Speaker
And there's other times where I'm not going to try to recreate the wheel because somebody said something so right on until I talk to someone and when I try to say something or have them watch that, then they're like, yeah, that did not resonate with me at all. I know in my mind that it's right what they said, but it's the way they are saying it. This person is not able to receive that message.
00:42:51
Speaker
So that happens all the time. I mean, my husband and I will be studying and reading and I'll say something. He goes, I completely disagree with how he said that. That doesn't make any sense. And so then I have to break it down because like you said, some people are in a different growth spurt. This person may be talking way above their head and they only maybe get a few things, but they're not able to, you know, what I hope to do is be able that God can use us
00:43:21
Speaker
So the person that's here can come down to this person's level and pull them up a little bit. Right. Or even this person, it doesn't, it doesn't matter. You know, we live, I say we live our lives on levels. We arrive in stages and it happens in seasons. That's what I would say.
Timing of the Rapture
00:43:39
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great analogy. So anyway, back to the point of the rapture, what I would say is just for sake of today, I don't think it's the right time to go through all the scriptures. What I think I'll do is just send you the scriptures, but I will tell you the ones that I wanted to share with you is
00:44:01
Speaker
So I guess I still haven't even gotten that answer. What is your view on the rapture? How do you see it? I believe that the rapture happens one time. I believe it's after the end of the tribulation. It's after the man of sin is revealed. It's after the last trumpet. It's after the great tribulation, which is after the last days, after the sun and moon darken, after the stars fall.
00:44:31
Speaker
after the dead in Christ rise because it says that dead in Christ will rise first.
00:44:39
Speaker
and the new heaven and the new earth are there after the patience of the saints during the tribulation. So I believe that it's not going to be something that we just wake up and people are missing. There's no evidence in scripture like that. I know that a lot of Christians will take a scripture, the one that they're both working in the field, one's taken and one's gone, but they're taking it out of the timeframe context.
00:45:05
Speaker
So that's why that particular portion of it is speaking of the end times. Because again, the rapture is going to happen and there are no signs before the rapture.
00:45:19
Speaker
And what I would question... Yeah, that's a good question because... Okay, so I have some scriptures for that in terms of the difference between the rapture and the second coming. So if you don't mind, let me see what I have here. Okay, go to... Okay, go to... Okay, go to 1 Corinthians chapter 15.
00:45:50
Speaker
and go to verse 52. Okay. Okay. If you don't mind, read it or I'll call it up. What translation are you reading the King James version? Okay. I'll read it in a new King James version. Okay. Okay.
00:46:30
Speaker
And you like context, so let me see where we could start at. You could probably start at where the mystery of resurrection. So 1 Corinthians 1550. Okay. Now this.
00:46:56
Speaker
I say, brother, in that flesh and blood cannot inherit kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery. So it's interesting that it's a mystery. It says, we shall not all sleep, or we shall all be changed. In a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trumpet, for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
00:47:25
Speaker
Yes. So twinkle in the eye, trumpet, that all signifies that that itself is a moment that is completely distinctly different. Now here's the constant, here's the verse status and contrary to that. So let's go to Revelations. Let's go to Revelations. Let me see. So that's my, my point. What I was going to say is at the last trumpet. So when does the last trumpet sound?
00:47:53
Speaker
Okay. But I associate that with his coming. So the Twinkle, well, actually, let me read that again. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet, for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible. So the dead rises first. The dead rises and then we shall be changed.
00:48:23
Speaker
Just like that. Last trumpet, dead in Christ first, then we'd get changed. That's what I'm reading in that scripture. Okay, so the one that I just read in a blink of an eye, I believe that portion of it is a rapture. I don't believe that's the second coming. The second coming, I will go to Revelation chapter one, verse seven.
00:48:48
Speaker
So let me ask you a question, Jonathan. If we're going to take just that in the twinkling of the eye out, that's what I mean as far as taking things, pulling things out. This is a whole statement that he's saying, and it's stating something that's in a chronological order. Yes. So that's what I'm saying is in a moment, in a moment, right? And this is what's going to happen in that moment.
00:49:12
Speaker
In the moment in the twinkling underline at the last trumpet for the trumpet shall sound and The dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed So that's all happening in that very moment. It's not just
00:49:28
Speaker
That's that's part of yeah, if you want to call it a rapture, that's fine But when is it happening? It tells you exactly when it's happening. It's happening at the last trumpet and after the dead Rises and I remember but here's the thing why I seen the difference between that and the second coming a coming is a sign That's not a sign. That's that that's why I said rapture when I instantly look at that because it's in a moment
00:49:55
Speaker
It's everything that you just said is happening, which means it's not necessary in an event. An event is something that is announced that everybody is aware of and sees the side of it, right? So we looked at 1 Thessalonians 4, 16, 17. The scripture is clear that it's speaking in regards to exactly everything that is happening.
00:50:18
Speaker
But actually, let me walk you through, because I have a few
Rapture vs. Second Coming
00:50:22
Speaker
here. So let's just go to Revelation chapter 1, verse 7. So when I go here, it says,
00:50:46
Speaker
He is coming with clouds and every eye will see Him. Even they who pierced Him and all the tribes of earth were mourned because of Him. Even so, amen. What does that speak about? Everybody's aware of the moment. So that's a scripture that supports
00:51:05
Speaker
instantly that that's the second coming. It's not a rapture but it's a second coming because it's given us understanding that it's not going to be in secret, it's not going to be done in the instance, it's going to be done where God's glory will be manifested in a moment where everyone will be caught to marvel at what's transpiring, right? So if I go to
00:51:33
Speaker
Okay, so we already read 1st Thessalonians 4, 16, 17. That's a rapture.
00:51:40
Speaker
Now let's go to the counterpart. Let's go to... Hold on, hold on. Let's back up for just a second because you say that's the rapture. Okay. So I want to read it. Yeah. Oh, okay. Because I thought we read it already. So let's just go to it. It's okay. So that's all right. I just want to read it because when you say, when you're declaring, this is the rapture, this is different than the second coming, because that's what I hear you're saying. You're saying that the rapture is something that just happens
00:52:05
Speaker
It just happens, right? Yes, I don't know where they go because it but let's just let's just say that so if this is the rapture verse, let's let's read it I'm gonna start at 15. Okay For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord that we which are alive and remain in
00:52:28
Speaker
unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep." Now, in King James Version, I don't know what version you're in, but the word prevent is mistranslated here in King James, should be precede, not prevent. So let me read it in the right context. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord that we which are alive
00:52:52
Speaker
We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, the coming of the Lord would be not the rapture, it's gonna be the coming of the Lord when he comes, right? That's when he comes. Shall not precede them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
00:53:23
Speaker
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with him, with them in the cloud. Start right there. So what do you think caught up means to be taken? I do believe that we're going to be caught up in the clouds with Christ. I don't, I don't ever deny it, but do I think it's going to be a second event?
00:53:44
Speaker
or it's going to be a event prior to when Jesus comes back? No, I don't. And I think that the scripture, this tells you, and it's basically confirming what we just read before about the heavens, the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout and with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God. Remember the trumpet was in the other part, right? And the dead in Christ raise first, and then we meet him in the clouds together.
00:54:16
Speaker
So in my mind, this isn't a second event. This is the same event that we were talking about in, um, first Corinthians. It's the same thing. It has the same language. It has the same, it has the trumpet. It's got the dead rise first. It's got us meeting that we would change. It's the same exact thing. So I don't see how this passage supports a second event is what I'm saying.
00:54:44
Speaker
Well, okay, so the distinction here is the reason why I'm saying to you that this isn't viewed in the context of the second coming. It's because obviously there's a difference between going with
00:55:06
Speaker
And then coming, going with God or going with Christ in this instance, and then him coming down, us coming down together to reign with God. And in this, in this portion of scripture, it's when you're saying that you're caught up or you're taken.
00:55:24
Speaker
I don't see how the second coming we will be experiencing that. Those are two different experiences. That's why I stopped you at the portion where it says that we read to be caught up when we go back to it.
00:55:41
Speaker
It says, and the dead in Christ will raise first. And then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds. Right. Well, I'm saying if we're with Christ, during with the tribulation occurring in Christ, God specifically addressing the
00:56:04
Speaker
follows or the church, right? Then that would have to mean that we want to be caught up, but that we will be coming down. So I have another verse for that too. So I want to make sure that I'm consistent, right? So let's go to, well, I wanted to give the count of portion to where I feel like this is more in line with the second coming. So go to Zachariah chapter 14.
00:56:38
Speaker
Okay, hold on. Why don't I have, let's see. Chapter 14, you said, uh-huh, verse 4. Okay.
00:57:07
Speaker
And it says, in that day, his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, with face Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from the east to the west, making a very large valley. Half of the mountain shall move towards the north and half of it towards the south.
00:57:27
Speaker
So the implication here of his feet being on the ground, it speaks much more to his establishment of the kingdom here.
Chronological End-Time Events
00:57:37
Speaker
Whereas the verse that I gave you before is us being caught up with Christ in the air as association that's more attached to us being removed before the tribulation occurs. So those are two different distinctions of scripture that point to that.
00:57:53
Speaker
Now here, can I, can I make a comment real quick? Here's the thing in that day, the day of the Lord. Okay. It's a day, right? And day is not a moment. A day has different hours.
00:58:11
Speaker
Right? Different things. I mean, we experienced that in our day. Right? We get up in the morning, we have the afternoon, we have the evening. So, I think it's really important for us to understand that just because this is saying a day and he's doing something that's different with us being caught up in the clouds, doesn't mean that this can't still happen on that same day.
00:58:32
Speaker
Okay, so let me give you an example. Let me give you something that Peter says a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day. So which means that thousand years tribulation can be attributed to the very thing you just said.
00:58:44
Speaker
Right. But you have to keep that. You have to keep that saying in context. Sometimes that day is a thousand days or a thousand years is like a thousand years is one day. So you have to keep that in context because not every time when the word day comes in scripture can you
00:59:03
Speaker
automatically interpret that that day is a thousand years. And we know that. We know that just from experience, you know, when we when we read scripture, you know, when we let's look at even when Jesus, Jesus died on one day, it didn't take him a thousand years to die in one day. But that's what I'm saying. What you're saying in that. Right. So the reason why I'm saying in this because the context, it works.
00:59:29
Speaker
The context in terms of Christ's resurrection and where he went, it obviously wouldn't work in that period in time, because it's consistent with the 40-day period that is spoken about in Luke chapter 19, verse 41 through 44, when he's, and then he's also talking about his body. So there's too many things surrounded around that that would be consistent, that we would know that there's a huge distinction. But this one in particular, because, so what I was saying to you earlier is that
00:59:58
Speaker
After rapture, Jesus comes for his saints. After second coming, Jesus comes with his saints. So the passage that I gave you, 1 Thessalonians 4, 16, 17, that's more of Jesus coming from his saints. The Zechariah's passage is more of us coming with him. So those are two different periods in time where God is getting us. And then in the second period, we're coming with him because now he's not
01:00:26
Speaker
coming to get us, but instead he's marking his territory as he steps foot on the earth to establish the kingdom. So that's why we'll look at it that way. But I'm not going to say that I'm 100% right. Then the other portion I was going to say is that the rapture is viewed upon as free, but at the second coming, we know he's abound for a thousand years.
01:00:55
Speaker
Now there's scripture for that as well. Can I make a comment real quick? Yeah, go for it. So what I'm trying to explain, and this is what I'm talking about, is putting the scriptures in a chronological
Matthew 24 and End Times
01:01:10
Speaker
order so it helps defend what I'm saying, is that the coming of the Lord and the rapture, and the reason why I believe that's two different events, because I believe that scripture explains it in a chronological order of events of what happens on that day.
01:01:26
Speaker
And, um, and that's what I'm saying. It's there's, there's scripture. If you go to, um, revelation 21, two, it's when John says, and I, John saw the holy city new Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
01:01:47
Speaker
It talks about us being brought up in the clouds with Jesus and the dead in Christ and Him destroying earth. And we're witnessing all of this. We're seeing this in the clouds at the same time. And He comes down, He destroys, and He sees New Jerusalem coming down, and then asks Him down to live with Him. You see what I'm saying? I see what you're saying because if you were saying, because here's what I'm thinking, right?
01:02:16
Speaker
And I think we're saying the same thing. Let me put it this way. When I brought up the pre-modern millennial perspective, they view it as two distinct events. But the way that they view it as two distinct events is they're thinking that this happens and this happens. The point that you're making is you're viewing it as it all happening
01:02:42
Speaker
potentially in the same day. If I'm getting this right, almost. Yes, yes. OK, so I don't I don't disagree with that. I think what you're saying is right, because that but that is aligned with what would be classified as the pre-historical millennium perspective. It's not known as two set events, but they're happening even if we're viewing it in a thousand year period, which is really a day.
01:03:10
Speaker
right? It's still happening all at the same time. I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that it's, it's in a thousand year period of this event happening. I don't think scripture supports that. And the reason why I say that is if we go to Matthew 24. Okay. Can we actually go to Matthew 24? Let's start with, let me start with this. Let me see real quick. Okay.
01:03:42
Speaker
Let's see. Okay, yeah, let's start at perilous times. I want to read this whole thing if that's okay with you. So I'm going to start Matthew 2415. Hold on, before you start, the passage you're reading
01:04:02
Speaker
I've interpreted that passes in association with the end times. I don't associate that passes in association with the rapture. And that's where you and I differ. That's where you and I differ because I don't believe that there's two events, that it's two separate events. Because most people who believe in a rapture believe that the one event, the rapture happens before the great tribulation.
01:04:26
Speaker
Okay. And what I'm saying is there's no two events. It's just one event and it all happens after the great tribulation. And this is why this isn't in Jesus's own words that I want to read. And this is the reason why I think that. Okay. Um, so when he therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel, the prophet stand in the holy place, who's read it, let him understand.
01:04:53
Speaker
Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes, and woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither
01:05:19
Speaker
on the Sabbath day, which I think is kind of interesting. Just a side note, Sabbath day is in the end times. That's interesting. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not sense from the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved, but for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened.
01:05:47
Speaker
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ there, believe it not. For there shall arise false Christ and false prophets and shall shew great signs and wonders in so much that if it were possible, they should shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you. Wherefore, if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert. Go not forth, behold, he is in the secret chambers, believe it not.
01:06:16
Speaker
For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the man be." Let me read that again.
Secret vs. Known End-Time Events
01:06:26
Speaker
For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the man be. Just real quick, it's gonna come quick. For whosoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
01:06:43
Speaker
Now the glorious return immediately after the tribulation. Okay. Just remember the time, the timestamp on here, cause it's very clear immediately after the tribulation of those days, shall the sun be darkened and the moon shall not give her light and the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. Okay.
01:07:06
Speaker
and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together
01:07:28
Speaker
his elect from the four winds from one end of the other. So that's when the elect is gathered is when this trumpet happens and they, where do they meet him? They're meeting him in the clouds. Send a man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and he shall send his angels with the great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
01:07:55
Speaker
Now, learn a parable of the fig tree. When his branch is yet tender and put forth leaves, you know that summer is nigh. So likewise, ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the door. So just like when the scripture says he's gonna come with this twinkly of an eye, he is. He's gonna be like a lightning from east to west. But that doesn't mean that it's gonna be a surprise. It just comes out of the blue. We're gonna know the season. His elect is gonna know
01:08:25
Speaker
the seasons right verily I say unto you this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled now when he's talking about this generation it's it's the day of the Lord it's it's the generation of the end time and that's why it says shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled heaven and earth shall pass away but my word shall not pass away
01:08:50
Speaker
But of the day and hour knoweth no man, no, not angels of heaven, but my father only. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage until the day of Noah entered into the ark." Meaning the evil are going to be caught off guard. The evil are going to be shocked because they're not going to be prepared.
01:09:20
Speaker
But we're going to know. We're going to know the season and when all of these stuff starts happening because we're going to be able to see these things. And no, not until the flood came and took them all away, so shall also the coming of the son of man be. Then shall two be in the field, the one shall be taken and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill, the one
01:09:41
Speaker
shall be taken and the other left." A lot of rapture people use this as the second event, but it's not because this is in the context of the final day. It's just part of the events that happen on that final day. And then I'm almost done. I'm getting to the last part. Be ready for His coming. Watch therefore, for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come, but know this, that if the good man of the house had known
01:10:11
Speaker
in what watch the thief would come he would have watched and would not have suffered his house to be broken up therefore be also ready for in for in such an hour as you think not the son of man coming who then is a faithful and wise servant whom his lord hath made ruler over his house to give him them meat in due season um i think i pretty much
01:10:40
Speaker
No, I'm just going to read the respite because I did only a few more verses. Let's see. Well, before you go, when I read all of this in context, is this all shedding light on end times? I don't see how this is shedding light at all about the rapture.
01:10:58
Speaker
Because that's the issue that we're having, Jonathan, is that the rapture and the end times are all at the same time. It all happens at the same time. But I'm saying, regardless of any translation, the title of it is the signs of the times at the end of the age. And then the other portion is the coming of the Son of Man. If I were to take it as the rapture, I would think they would make sure they put that here, right?
01:11:28
Speaker
But I think part of our issue is that you truly believe in your mind that there's two events. No, I never said it with two events. I said the rapture itself, I don't consider it an event. I said the end times, I consider it an event.
01:11:44
Speaker
I said, the reason why I don't consider it, the reason why I don't consider it an event is because an event is something that transpires where everybody is marveled and aware of it. The rapture has never been described as something that people be aware of. It's something that happens.
01:12:02
Speaker
where no one knows.
Israel and the Church in End Times
01:12:04
Speaker
So that's the reason why I said I don't see the rapture as an actual event. If I did, then I would classify it as the modern pre-millennium perspective. I wouldn't do that. That's why I said I don't see the rapture as an event. Nowhere in scripture does the rapture provide
01:12:26
Speaker
information that will lead me to think it's an event that we have signs and things that we should be looking out for because it doesn't say that. The word rapture is not even found in scripture. Well, we can't say that. So isn't the Trinity. So isn't church in certain portions. So isn't a lot of things that we can't. That's that's a bad argument. You can't use that argument.
01:12:54
Speaker
Well, it may be a weak argument, but at the same time, you have to figure out where did this concept of a rapture come from? Go back and research that because it wasn't in the early church. It wasn't in the early fathers.
01:13:12
Speaker
That concept of the rapture is a fairly new concept in the church. Well, okay, so let me... I have a few questions asked, right? With the true relation period,
01:13:26
Speaker
So the reason why I believe that the tribulation period has to occur is because there's portions of scripture in Daniel, there's portions of scriptures in Jeremiah, there's portions of scriptures in 1 Corinthians and 2 Corinthians and Revelation that speaks about God specifically adjusting the children of Israel.
01:13:52
Speaker
and we need that tribulation to happen and they are going to be during that period of time where they're experiencing that while we will be removed the scriptures that I gave but I'm saying let me I can provide scriptures for that so I'm not giving you I'm not saying these things and there aren't scriptures that support that in the book of Daniel chapter 9 verse 24 we can go there first
01:14:23
Speaker
because God still has to deal with them. We can't just say that that's not gonna happen. He still has to trust them. I'm gonna look at it in the NLT and it says, let me know when you've gotten there.
01:14:36
Speaker
I'm here, yep. It says a period of 70 sets of seven has been decreed for your people and your holy city to finish their rebellion, to put an end to their sin, to atone for their guilt, to bring an everlasting righteousness, to perform the prophetic vision, and to anoint the most holy place. Yeah. The next passage is Jeremiah chapter 30 verse seven.
01:15:06
Speaker
So hold on just a second. I think what you're trying to emphasize is the difference between the Israelites versus the church. And I'm saying during the rapture, I'm saying the church
01:15:22
Speaker
gets removed from that period in time where God specifically deals with them. And this scripture that talks about what we will be doing during this time of it trans by. So I'm saying these aren't ideas where someone just came up with this scripture that clearly says this.
01:15:41
Speaker
I don't think that the scripture clearly says that the church is going to be removed at the Great Tribulation and God is going to deal with his people at the end times. I don't believe that they said that. Okay, so there are other scriptures that would lead you to believe that. So I'll read this portion for you. You don't have to go. Jeremiah chapter 30 verse 7. Hold on a second. I just want to write these down.
01:16:11
Speaker
Yeah, sure. Daniel. Chapter nine, verse 24. Yep, got it. And Jeremiah chapter 30, verse seven. And then write these down to during tribulation, what will we be doing as the church? First Corinthians three, verse three verses, sorry, first Corinthians chapter three, verse 10 to 15. Second Corinthians chapter five,
01:16:39
Speaker
Verse 10 and Revelation chapter 1. No, no, no. Revelation 19. There's not a chapter 1. Okay.
01:16:51
Speaker
So then Jeremiah 37 is in all history. There has never been such a time of terror. So I'm trying to figure out what time of terror would it be if it's not during this period. But that's just me. It will be a time of trouble for people, for my people Israel. Yet in the end, they will be saved. Right. And we understand that that's where God will personally deal with them. Right. Because they've rejected the Messiah.
01:17:21
Speaker
But some Israelites didn't. Well, they want to be. They will be, but they will be part of the church.
01:17:27
Speaker
These are people that have rejected the Messiah. I think part of this is you have to go back and figure out when did the church decide they were going to separate the Israelites from the church. Because we are called that we are part of Israel. That's where the two olive trees come together and they're merged together to one. You're gonna have to explain where the forefathers have, when did they divide
01:17:56
Speaker
the difference between the church and their people. Well, it's clear in Ephesians, but we understand what was written in Ephesians is talking about us as one. But again, it has to do with based upon not the order.
01:18:11
Speaker
What was discussed in Ephesians has more to do with placing in faith in Christ. There's a passage in Romans that gives you the huge distinction between those that are of the circumcision and then those that are of placing in faith in Christ that are not based, that do not, that placed in faith in Christ, but are not living by the written code.
01:18:33
Speaker
So there's portions of scripture that go across the board where Paul has addressed it in Ephesians and then it was just addressed in Romans. So they are, yeah go ahead.
01:18:45
Speaker
That's okay. I just really am struggling with the fact that there's a separate from Israel and the church. I don't believe that's scriptural. I do understand what you're saying. There's some scriptures that may distinct from what they lived, but God very much tells us that we are all one. We are part of Adam's seed. We were adopted into Christ.
01:19:12
Speaker
It's one of those doctrines that are new in the church. Newer meaning the last couple hundred years. And I think that that's part of the, where you and I are not seeing eye to eye is because that never was part of scripture before. They're never part of the interpretation, I should say.
Believers Grafted into Israel's Promises
01:19:32
Speaker
So let me ask you a question. Let me ask you this question.
01:19:40
Speaker
Uh, the children that are, okay. Are you familiar with the pastors in Galatians that speaks about the children on the free and then the children in the, it gives the two women that at the time, Abe was an Abraham that had been with Sarah. And then you have, uh, what was the other woman's name? Um, uh,
01:20:12
Speaker
And in there, there's a distinction between those who are children of the free woman and children of the slave. Those who continue to live.
01:20:25
Speaker
inconsistent in alignment with the law could not be children of God. Those who consider to be living under the covenant of Christ are children of God. So you have some Jews who have placed their face in Christ, and that is what makes them want. But you have other Jews who are still under God's original covenant, that still has to be addressed.
01:20:53
Speaker
Why does it still have to be addressed? Because they haven't placed their faith in Christ, but it's through this experience between Daniel and Jeremiah that speaks about they and that it's consistent. There's another passage in Zechariah that says that they will call out, they will cry out, and then they will acknowledge who Jesus is. And then they will be drafted into where we all will become one.
01:21:15
Speaker
But regardless of any background, what makes us united as one is our faith in Christ. We can't say that the Jews who don't place their faith in Christ are still part of the body of Christ as one. That will be inconsistent between the new covenant originally with the old and what Jesus had to do away with.
01:21:35
Speaker
in order for everything to be fulfilled. So that's why maybe I'm not understanding where you're coming from. Also, I think part of the thing is that people don't realize is that that covenant made by Abraham, obviously it was through Abraham's seed that Jesus would be born, right? That is his promise.
01:21:57
Speaker
And you also have to look at when he gave the Israelites the promised land It wasn't just the Israelites that went in there There were other Egyptians and sojourners that went along with them and we know this Because look at Ruth look at the people you just in the lineage of Christ. They were not Jewish people okay, they were they were they were brought in anybody who wanted to follow God and
01:22:24
Speaker
was always accepted, even if they weren't from the seed of Abraham. You see what I'm saying? So I'm not disagreeing with that, because obviously it's through the lineage that all those people were blessed. The lineage of the promise.
01:22:40
Speaker
Yes, the lineage of the promise, which if we're going by Old Testament factors, Mary was connected to Nathan. And Joseph, if we're going by those that will be given as King, he technically, if it wasn't for everything that transpired, he was next in line in King. But this has more to do with
01:23:01
Speaker
the understanding of the connection where in order for Christ to remove the sin, he had to be in a line with the generations in order for that to even occur. Which means he had to be within the bloodline where God was blessing everyone that became a part of it in order for that to even occur. Which is why it would make sense that Jesus had to be Jewish. He had to be Jewish. He couldn't be anywhere else because in order to redeem
01:23:30
Speaker
those who are lost, he had to be of that descendant, of that descendant line where God blessed it to allow that to even happen. Well, let's make it even, let's make it even slimmer. It wasn't just, he had to be Jewish. He had to be from the seed of Adam. He had to be from the seed of Adam. And that's even a slimmer part, right? So when we're talking about God
01:23:57
Speaker
Dealing with the disobedience of his people We're not just talking we're it's it's Everything and yes, there is a certain curse that he put on His people said if you did not if you do not do this if you do not do this then this is gonna happen we see that and we see it and it does talk about in scripture where those curses will become seven times right and
01:24:22
Speaker
And you have the number seven, 70, 70 weeks, 70 years, 70, using a lot of analogies in that concept. But to say that when Jesus came and died on the cross, that we are not part of Adam's seed. We're not part of his, part of Israel. We are Israel. Scripture does clarify that very much. There's no distinction of that.
01:24:52
Speaker
We are adopted in. We are grafted in. We aren't grafted in after the Great Tribulation. We are grafted in because Jesus died on the cross and saved us from our sins, people who believe.
01:25:07
Speaker
So I think part of the confusion between you and I is that I don't believe that there is a difference between, in a chain of historical events, is there a difference between Israelites and me as a Gentile?
Interpretation of 'Wrath'
01:25:21
Speaker
Absolutely. But when it comes to our salvation and the events that are going to happen, when God takes us, He's going to take us all, all who believe in Him. It's not just one gets punished on earth.
01:25:33
Speaker
But they're not saying they are not saved because they didn't put their faith in Christ Like do you do you see how? That's why that's why the tribulation is for them it is not for us that's why I was like when you see Israel
01:25:55
Speaker
and you see the church, what makes us the church is that we all have placed our faith in Christ. There are still those of Israel that are of the written code that have not placed their faith in Christ.
01:26:10
Speaker
And if they haven't placed their faith in Christ, then we can't draft them in because that's what the pastor and Ephesus that says he has destroyed the wall of hostility is talking about how we're all one regardless of background, but then you still have those people.
01:26:29
Speaker
that are Jews, that are part of the Israel nation, that are still practicing the old traditions because that was the original covenant that was established. Those people still have an opportunity to be drafted in, but they're not going, they are going to be dealt separately.
01:26:45
Speaker
Right, but think about what you're saying. Think about what you're saying. You're saying that the church is going to be taken up before the Great Tribulation, but it's very clear in Scripture that during the Tribulation, the elect will be part of that Tribulation. It talks about that. And it's not talking about the elect who are the Israelites.
01:27:02
Speaker
The elect is the remnant. The people that are going to be saved, they're going to be watching, they'll be protected during that tribulation, but they're still going to go through it. I mean, there's multiple scriptures that talk about the elect being part of the tribulation. And it says that even if those days hadn't been shortened, for the elect's sake,
01:27:29
Speaker
So the elect is going through it. I mean, that's part of what I don't understand is separation of the Jewish people. Okay, so then I gave you... All of the elect go up in the clouds and then the Jewish people are here to go through the tribulation. It just doesn't say that. Okay, so then I also gave you passages that are symbolic.
01:27:57
Speaker
That I'm sorry, hold on just my dog out. Hold on. Yeah, no worries Okay, sorry about that no worries I said I also gave you passages that Express that those that God that are part of God's Church and
01:28:25
Speaker
Right. Won't experience wrath, but then I also pointed out when God dealt with those who didn't. There are plenty of foreshadowed passages or symbolic passes that align with the same thought process. Now, I would do that. No, I do see that, but I do think that the word wrath is being interpreted incorrectly. It's not wrath of the great tribulation. The wrath is the destroying of your soul.
01:28:53
Speaker
the damnation of your soul. That's what those passages are talking about. It's not talking about the Great Tribulation. And the reason why we know that is because the Great Tribulation is described and it tells you that it's going to be a day that has never happened before. And we know that Christians deal with wrath because look at what happened in the early church.
01:29:17
Speaker
They were completely persecuted. They were hung. They were mutilated. They were burned to the stake. I mean, there isn't a passage in Scripture that says that the church is not going to be persecuted. As a matter of fact, it's just the opposite. They say, if you believe in me, you're going to be persecuted.
01:29:39
Speaker
So I think we have to be really careful when we're talking to Christians, because when Christians do suffer persecution,
01:29:48
Speaker
And I think that's an entire topic because that's not what I'm saying. I never said that Christians don't experience wrath. Now there is a scripture that does say that God said that he did not call us to experience wrath but to have salvation. Now that's the difference between us believers going through suffering periods because we know based upon scripture that also says that he punished those who he loves
01:30:17
Speaker
And then obviously he said, Jesus made it clear that if the world hates you, it hated me first, right? So we got to be careful with that too. So I'm not saying as Christians, we aren't going to go through hard times and hardships. Those hard times and hardships help build our faith. Even Paul who says, I'm in chains, but I ain't changed for even a better opportunity in the situation for the church itself.
01:30:42
Speaker
Versus what we're talking about about the wrath that's going to get experienced for those who didn't accept him I think we've got to figure out the the word wrath there Go back to the Hebrew and decide and figure out what the Hebrew is really talking about Is it talking about the great tribulation when it says wrath or is it talking about our salvation?
Summary of Doctrinal Differences
01:31:03
Speaker
That we don't have to we don't have to die in our sins because the wrath that's gonna happen is
01:31:11
Speaker
Those that are not in Christ. It's not this great time of tribulation So that's what I would suggest to go back and do and I will do that too. I'm I've this has really gotten me To the point where I need to really brush up on these scriptures on what I'm saying And make a really clear point and I think the one thing that I learned out of this Jonathan is that
01:31:40
Speaker
A lot of people that believe in the rapture believe that there's two different events. And that they believe that the Israelites are separate from the church. And I think those are some concepts that we really need to dig deep in scripture to find if those are really the truth or not. You could write this down. This is what I was saying. First Thessalonians chapter 5 verse 9. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath, but to receive salvation to our Lord, the Savior, Jesus Christ.
01:32:09
Speaker
Right. So he's talking about salvation there. He's not talking about the great tribulation. He's talking about us not gonna suffer wrath, meaning we're not gonna die in our sins.
01:32:19
Speaker
We're not going to be in the lake of fire. We're not going to be suffering and being separated from God. That wrath is talked about in Revelation, when he burns up the earth and he throws those angels in the lake of fire and the wrath of those people who they get burned up. That's the wrath he's talking
Faith and Identity of Israel
01:32:40
Speaker
about. So I don't think you've answered this question. Those that have not placed their faith in Christ,
01:32:48
Speaker
Right? Are they being drafted? I mean, are they coming with us? No, people who are not in faith in Christ are going to die in their sins. Jesus clearly says that. Okay, but now there is a specific group of people
01:33:04
Speaker
that is from scripture, right? He chose a few in number. Is that not Israel? That's what I'm asking you. Which few people are you talking about? Are you talking about the 144 that get the seal? Are you talking about those people? What people are you talking about? No, no, no, no, no. I'm saying the covenant that God... Okay, let me say it this way.
Old Law vs. New Law
01:33:31
Speaker
For us, we understand that we're not under the old law, but we're under new law, correct? We're both on the same page.
01:33:40
Speaker
Yes and no. I think the new law encompasses a lot of the old law and you see it in our day-to-day lives. We don't believe that adultery is right. We don't believe that murdering is right. Lying is right. We don't believe that idolatry is right. That would be part of a Christian life. You'd see the evidence of that and you see the new law would be the difference. It's not necessarily the new law, but Christ fulfilled the old.
01:34:10
Speaker
So we are no longer under the law, but we're under grace and mercy. Would you agree with that?
Role of Grace in the New Covenant
01:34:15
Speaker
Well, yes and no, because Jesus says that none of the law will fade away until I come again. Not one jot or one tittle will be removed from the law until I come again. Now, what changed? What did Jesus do when he died on the cross? He took away us having to push our sins ahead every year by sacrificing
01:34:39
Speaker
bulls and goats.
01:34:41
Speaker
key cover has been for us, but there's still a law that God has written that it didn't just start in the wilderness with Moses and the Israelites. That's the first time God wrote it down, but we see that there was a law even before that in the very beginning. I'm saying, are we under grace and mercy? I think grace and mercy is part of God's law.
01:35:11
Speaker
I think that's part of what he put in place. You don't see two contracts. You see one contract. I see one contract, one contract, and that he fulfilled a part of it, but then it has not been completely fulfilled. No, scripture says he fulfilled all of it. No, it doesn't say that. It says that he fulfilled the main part, which was saving us from our sins. But the other part is that we're going to
01:35:38
Speaker
That people are going to be judged and that we are going to live with him and that's part of it and it says It's it's and I wish I knew the scripture I can tell you there's several I gave you the scripture I told you if you go to this tooth because so this is where we disagree too because scripture is clear as those who are saved
01:35:59
Speaker
When we go to meet Christ, the judgment will not be based upon our salvation. It will be based upon what we did with the gifts, talents, and abilities that he has given us in order to further the kingdom. That's very clear. Go to... I can write these down. So that's why when you said, from what I gathered, Christ fulfills all of the law. He needs to fulfill part of it. He fulfilled all of it because
01:36:23
Speaker
There's a reason why 2 Corinthians chapter 5 verse 18 through 21 that says, he who knew no sin became sin for us so that we may become the righteousness of God. Now, when it comes to salvation, I believe it's the gospel of John chapter 1 verse 29 that says that it was John who said, look, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. So what Christ did is that the righteousness that we now have
01:36:50
Speaker
is His, right? Which means He fulfilled in order for that to happen, in order to move from one covenant to the next. And it's in the book of Hebrews. So that's why I'm saying in the book of Hebrews, it's clear that the shedding of the blood and the orbation for the forgiveness of sins
01:37:09
Speaker
moves us from one covenant to the next. I'm not saying that the old covenant and the values that is there is not something that is not expected of us because the two most important commandments sum up everything. Love your Lord of God with all your heart, mind, soul, strength. Love your neighbors yourself. But that's why I'm saying if you're going to
01:37:29
Speaker
But now this is rooted back in Galatians. If you're going to try to operate by trying to line yourself up with the law, we know that those who try and fall or stumble with one have broken them all. So that's what I'm saying. I'm not talking about, I'm not talking about following foot line and step.
01:37:48
Speaker
with each individual law. I'm talking about the commandments of God. I'm talking about the ones that he has put in place since the beginning of time. And what I will also say is that yes, Jesus did when he said it is finished, it is finished, meaning that sin has been over, it's been
01:38:14
Speaker
But that verse that says, sit at my right hand side until I make your enemies a footstool.
01:38:22
Speaker
something like that. The whole part of what Jesus is doing has not been completed yet. One part of it has, yes. The other part hasn't. And that's what I'm saying. It doesn't happen until the judgment day of God. He says that in his own words. And that's when he says, I didn't come to abolish the law, I came to fulfill the law.
01:38:47
Speaker
But it says, not one jot or one tittle will be taken away from the law until that end happens, not his death and resurrection, but the end, the end. And that's what happens on the day of the judgment, the day of the Lord. And that's what I'm saying is that, and that's why I don't know if you remember this, but when we were talking the first time, I said, I get frustrated when
01:39:11
Speaker
You know men put A label on the Old Testament and the New Testament now are there things that happen that have been done away with yes, but I don't think
01:39:23
Speaker
tiling it the Old Testament and New Testament is really helpful because That tells people a lot because a lot of the churches. What are they focus on? They focus on the New Testament They don't focus on the Old Testament They don't focus on the full story of Christ the full story of Christ Happen the day that he created the world and all the way to Revelation. It doesn't just stop when you know He created the world Noah
01:39:52
Speaker
Abraham, you know, Israelites going in with Moses and then Jesus dying on the cross. It's a whole story. It's a whole
01:40:05
Speaker
the whole thing. We have to take it all in its context. Now, some of those laws and things like that, like some of the Jewish customs or the laws that God gave those people, some of them have been done away with, yeah, I get that. But the main commandments that God put on us to live our lives from, it started in the very beginning.
01:40:29
Speaker
And that's why Adam and need had to leave the Garden of Eden because they disobeyed him We know that there was some sort of something before the law before Moses because we see Cain and Abel sacrificing We see certain things happening before the actual written of the law and then what does the scripture say in the New Testament New Testament says the law is written down not for the righteous but for the evil and
01:40:57
Speaker
So God knows there's always been, he's always constant. It's always been, there's certain things chronologically that has taken place. Yes, but I don't think that the law has been abolished. I'm not talking about the, you know, like the sacrificing of blood and goats and all of that stuff and the, you know, certain things like that. But there's still that concept, like you just said, that new commandment.
01:41:25
Speaker
Feel like that new commandment that he said you love one another is just basically Refreshing the ten commandments because like you said it it's all encompassing of all of that stuff because if you love the Lord your God with all your heart with all your soul with all your mind you're not going to
01:41:42
Speaker
idolatize yourself. You're not going to worship idols. You're not going to, you know, and then it just, that's just a whole nother discussion that opens a whole bunch of cannon worms because there is the Sabbath. It talks about the Sabbath and, you know, why would you, and Jesus came and he says, I'm not here to abolish the Sabbath. I'm Lord of the Sabbath.
01:42:03
Speaker
I'm Lord of the Sabbath. So someone who is a Lord of the Sabbath, how does he get away? How does he let it go? I mean, that doesn't make any sense. So and again, I think it comes back to just
01:42:20
Speaker
I think it comes back to a lot of things. I think it comes back to theology and how people look at theology. But I do think that we are in an age of technology and that knowledge is increasing. And some of these things that have been talked about and thought about, interpreted about, I think there's a lot of people are awakening and
01:42:48
Speaker
getting new information and not just saying new information revelation from the Holy Spirit, but also just looking at other findings that God has revealed to us. Look at the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947. There's a plethora. I mean, that whole finding was the finding of all of the Old Testament books with the exception of one, which is the Book of Esther, which is a whole other story.
01:43:12
Speaker
But that's validation that those things were real. And then we have to look back at when the church was founded, where are they going to go get scripture from? Where are they going to go know how to love their neighbor as their self and love the Lord thy God with all their heart, with all their mind? It's not going to be the New Testament because that wasn't written yet. They're going to use Old Testament scripture.
01:43:34
Speaker
So I don't know if I got off on a tangent, but I'm just saying, I think so much in our church, we get so focused on this is the law of Moses and this is the new covenant. And I think that's a lot of confusion when people read Romans with Paul. Paul is not talking about, there's two things that he's talking about there. He's talking about the law being the law of sin and death.
01:44:01
Speaker
It's kind of like what we're discussing about the word wrath. A lot of people think that, and when he's talking in Romans, he's talking about the law of Moses. Sometimes he does bring that up, but a lot of times he's talking about the law of sin and death. And until we can understand that, we're going to be dissecting in certain periods of time and say, oh, that doesn't matter because that's not time. And this is now we're in this time. I think it's all encompassing, you know? Good question. Do you have a church home?
01:44:31
Speaker
My church is here with my husband and some of our friends. Jonathan, I had been so disappointed with the church and where they're going. And so many churches have such corruptible stuff going on. They're not dealing with these important topics. They're not dealing with things that are happening and really
01:45:00
Speaker
encouraging people to truly read their Bibles. They're not. I mean, they're just... And normally who's leading church services for you guys? Everybody takes turns or something? How's it going? We just read the scriptures. We take communion. We pray. We have a worship time.
01:45:19
Speaker
It's very communal. Nobody's leading anything. We're just letting the Holy Spirit guide us into that time. Now, if there's a time where I can find a group of people, I'm not opposed to that, but I think in this time right now, based on where I'm living and the churches around me, it's extremely corrupt. It's about more about being a part of a club than it is about a body of Christ. It's about more entertaining
01:45:47
Speaker
It's kind of like the stuff that Stephen, is it Stephen Smith? Forgive me, we were just watching. Oh, you're talking about.
01:45:56
Speaker
Spencer Smith Spencer Spencer I'm gonna get his name right at some point a lot of the stuff that he was saying and he's warning about that it says exactly the things that I would warn and Most preachers don't want to hear it because a lot of those people they this is what they want to do Kim. That's too negative. That's too real
01:46:19
Speaker
And I'm, that's scary. I don't want to deal with scary. I want to be a joy in the Lord. I want to be in joy with the Lord and so grateful and live in that moment all the time. But there's such a judgment coming, like you said, and we have to prepare for that. And nobody wants to talk about it. So just out of curiosity, what we discussed today.
01:46:41
Speaker
Do you think that regardless of how it plays out, do you think that interferes with our salvation? Either one of us.
01:46:52
Speaker
No, but here's what I will say. I think it will affect other people's salvation and this is why. Because they're not going to be prepared. They're not going to pay attention. They're going to think in their minds that this event has to happen before the Great Tribulation and what happens when the Great Tribulation comes and they're still here.
01:47:15
Speaker
What happens then? And that's what I'm concerned about, because how many people are going to walk away from the faith because they're not prepared to deal with what's about ready to come. And that's what scares me. That's what I get frustrated about. I would say if you're placing your faith in Christ, because here's what I think, right?
01:47:37
Speaker
I think there are numerous amount of views. We even talk about some of the post, you know, millennium and the admin namely and stuff that I don't even think of ratchet cysts. They don't even think that they have a lot of interesting views, right? And obviously some are not rooted in scripture. And from what you're gathered, you don't believe that at least pre-trib is in scripture either. But I'm of the belief that
01:48:09
Speaker
The number one thing we'll call to do is place our safe in Christ and live a life worthy of our calling. And Matthew 25, right? Someone's hungry, he gives us on the eat, someone's thirsty, he gives us on the drink, and make disciples.
01:48:23
Speaker
And whether the points of views, because I believe there are a lot of churches that have different points of views now, I don't want to say, I think the core values of the belief that are important, like salvation and sin and those issues, I think are very important. The end times.
01:48:41
Speaker
at least for me, in regards to if you're obedient and you're doing everything else, either one, I'm gonna believe, yeah, the Holy Spirit will lead you to all truth, right? But I think in this situation, I think you can have a different perspective and point of view, but I don't think that necessarily impacts
01:49:00
Speaker
how you live in a day-to-day and how you're going about it and if you live in a Christian difference. I just think that these are theories and ideas that people have and how they're interpreting the scripture and if it's right or wrong but I'm not 100% aligned that it affects your salvation and how you see the world. I think at the end of the day if you're still doing what you're supposed to do and
01:49:25
Speaker
That's where your heart and your mind lies in Christ. I think it'd be fine. That's just me. I think there are some people, you're right, that are rooted in scripture because there's a lot of my friends that are dispensationalists. I'm going to tell you right now that do believe in the rapture strongly.
01:49:42
Speaker
But then there's some of them that have such an amazing impact on my life as far as scripture and helping just like Dr. John Lennox. When I listen to him, I know now how to equip myself and be prepared to talk to an atheist or
01:50:01
Speaker
or a Gnostic person, or someone even in the pagan religions. So I think that there are a remnant of people in certain camps in the Christian group that can really help you with guiding you through scripture and truth.
01:50:20
Speaker
Um, but is that mean that everybody that believes in the rapture is not going to be hurt by this doctrine? No, I, I think that there are some that are not going to be rooted in scripture that can lose their faith because they're just not rooted enough. That's what God says in the scriptures that you, that's why he wants to prove all things and hold fast to that, which is good. Those are the people that I'm mostly concerned about. I'm not concerned about you, Jonathan.
01:50:43
Speaker
I love having this dialect with you because I know where you're going. I know where I'm going, you know? So if you're not a sensationalist, then what would you classify yourself as if that's not it?
01:50:56
Speaker
I don't want to be classified as anything. I just want to be classified as following God's Word and asking the Holy Spirit to guide me. I think there's a problem. Do you like the term Christian? Yeah, I don't mind the term Christian. See, for the longest, I didn't. I didn't. Because for one, I've always felt like, what was it? Book of Acts, chapter 11, verse 44. The term Christian came from what the cactus called.
01:51:21
Speaker
So I still to this day say I'm a follower of Christ. I don't necessarily say I'm a Christian because Christian is a large spoke. You've got Jehovah Witnesses in their doctrine. You've got Mormons in their doctrine. I don't call them Christians. So it gets very interesting all over the place where you're trying to... Here's another thing. I'm not a firm believer that I'm operating in a religion. I believe in relationship.
01:51:45
Speaker
Now, based upon what Spanish is meant to be, I can see how there are two religions in the world, and one religion that has been adopted and repeated it. But I believe it's about who you know, not what you know. It's not necessary about religion, where some people say, and then they use that scripture in James, what good religion is. But I'm a firm believer in relationship. So it gets very, when you start going across the board, which made me laugh, because you was like, yeah. So it gets interesting. You know it's so funny that you say that, Jonathan.
01:52:15
Speaker
Is that before when you look at um, some of my things I may still have to change a few things on my thing I would just call myself follower of christ too because I didn't want to be associated with the word christian and then I got hit one day about what There was something that I was listening to or whatever that made me realize that okay Well if I separate myself from there because then I would just say i'm i'm not religious i'm spiritual
01:52:41
Speaker
Well, I don't even say that anymore because I don't think, I think that that opens up a can of worms too, because then that makes somebody just kind of like, well, who are you? You know, what are you believing? So what I try to tell people is that I don't, I don't subscribe to any church denomination
01:52:59
Speaker
or non-denomination. I'm a follower of Christ like you. I believe that Jesus is God, that he came. He was a real man, born of a virgin, died on the cross for our sins, and is seated at the right hand of God and is going to come back and take his elect people, and then we're going to live with him forever. I believe that wholeheartedly. And
01:53:25
Speaker
And that's why a lot of the things that I'm talking about on my podcast would be, it's called Guide for Truth TV, Slaying the Doctrines of Men.
Guide for Truth TV Mention
01:53:36
Speaker
And Jesus made it very clear that there were doctrines of men, right? And then there's His doctrine. So it's learning
01:53:44
Speaker
how to expose what those doctrines are that are not part of God's Word. And a lot of times, it's a learning thing, just like you said, it's a growth thing. And how are we going to know what that is? We have to be in Scripture every single day. We have to sharpen each other just like this conversation, which I'm so grateful that you want to have these types of conversations. You know, I live my life in such
01:54:12
Speaker
a deep thought all the time that I can't get away from it. The reason why I cry is because most people, I can't talk to you about this stuff.
01:54:27
Speaker
And that makes me sad because this is what we should be talking about more than who's winning the NFL. And that's my passion, is to help people see how important this message is, not to get it perfect, but at least to strive for the truth. That's the most important thing. Yeah. I'm in agreement with you.
01:54:53
Speaker
All right. I feel the same way too. There's certain things that I wish I could talk to people about, but the frustrating part is not everybody's reading their Bible. You know, they don't find it as, you know, as important or at the top of the list. They think that, you know, I'm gonna be okay. But it hits you with the, you know, my parents used to go to church and they think that that's all that matters.
01:55:18
Speaker
That's why I've always had a huge issue with the altar call. It's just my personal experience with it. It's because you have a lot of people that think that through an altar call, that they've done all the work. But then when they are told that, hey, you need to read the Bible, you need to get to know God, you need to pour into your relationship with God, they think that they've gone through this event. And then that once the event is gone, that that's all they need to do. And they don't invest into this stuff.
01:55:45
Speaker
So I never liked the article. And you know what I don't like either? I don't like the fact that some churches put the prayer
01:55:53
Speaker
In the back of scripture that was completely made up That's not part of scripture. You can't find that prayer anywhere like pray this prayer and you're going to be saying that's not in the bible That's not there and that makes me so sad because and then you know that opens up i've got so many topics it would be great to To go into that. I know that we'd be in agreement and that we could help each other learn more about certain topics and one of them is about
01:56:19
Speaker
The enemies of Christ and how they've infiltrated the church and see that's another one reason why I probably wouldn't be welcome in most churches Jonathan because I have a keen discernment of who people are and I will ask and I'll raise my hand and I'll ask people, you know about certain groups that they've allowed into the church and I'm just gonna say one of them is Freemasonry most people don't understand what Freemasons are and
01:56:48
Speaker
and they have infiltrated the church. Jesuits have infiltrated the denominational and non-denominational churches. Why? Because the Catholic Church has an agenda to try to bring everybody into one world religion, just like what Spencer was talking about. And if we're not talking about these kinds of things in churches to protect the flock, then we're really hurting. And that's why we're losing. That's why
01:57:17
Speaker
God's not losing, but we're losing this battle here in this country because we don't understand who our enemies are. That's a whole another topic that I've done a lot of research on. That's why I was in a lot of agreement with what Spencer was talking about. Honestly, I was in agreement with everything he had to say
01:57:42
Speaker
just not the rapture millennial part. And I'm okay with that. I mean, I put it this way. I mean, I think in life, if you agree with everything with somebody, there's something wrong. There's got to be something that you're not in lock that with. And then maybe over time, the perspective that you have can change, right? And I think as long as you're open to learning and growing and maturing,
01:58:08
Speaker
I think that that happened, no brainer. I used to say this, I used to bring up this court case in history, 1972, Jonas Yoda versus the state of Wisconsin. And I used to bring up the actual story is that he had daughters and he was being told that he couldn't, you know,
01:58:31
Speaker
I want to say homeschool them, teaching them about Christ. And what ended up occurring was he was stolen in jail based upon his beliefs.
Faith: Conviction or Preference
01:58:39
Speaker
And that's when I've discovered that it comes down to whether your faith in Christ is a conviction or a preference.
01:58:46
Speaker
We see that in scripture, right? One of the examples of that was the young, the boy that was blind, he couldn't see. And it was based upon that when they asked his parents, was he always like this? Or was he like this when he was born? And they floated under pressure. And he got kicked out, worship Christ when Christ met him, because he believed. But I think we're always going to be constantly asked,
01:59:10
Speaker
You know, is what you believe a preference, which is something that changes over time or conviction, which is like, regardless of, you know, having the courage to stand on your convictions is what us as believers have to do, regardless of how tough times are. And unfortunately, United States.
01:59:28
Speaker
protect another the Constitution we can practice what we believe without being harmed but there are people outside the United States that don't have that protection that die every single day what they believe even if it's not in Christ and there's another thing but that's the thing the protection we have the fortunateness we have in the United States but at the end of the day you we have to be able to stand on what we believe know the scriptures for ourselves
01:59:53
Speaker
and be able to be a walking Bible, be a truth in the context where it is, where Matthew says, let your light shine before others so that they may glorify your Father in heaven. So we got to be able to do that. And if we aren't able to do that,
02:00:09
Speaker
I do think that that's something that's unacceptable. We have to be better ambassadors for Christ. I agree. I totally agree. And I think just helping people understand what the Bible says. But getting them so
02:00:25
Speaker
like sparked enough to where they're going to go and research it for themselves. You know, I don't want any one person to take what I have to say because that's not what I mean, I'm not, I'm not a preacher. I'm not any of that. I'm just, you know, I'm a daughter in Christ that loves God and I read my scripture and I want to talk about it. I can't help but talk about it. And that's why I, you know, a lot of people don't invite me in a lot of places because I can't
02:00:55
Speaker
not talk about it. Thank goodness I have a patient husband. Some of the stuff that I have him listen to or we read or whatever, he's there and willing to put his covering over me and protect me.
02:01:15
Speaker
And he'll argue with me when he doesn't believe it, but then that just sharpens me more because then I go back and I'm like, okay, I have to regroup. I have to think how I'm going to, it's just like this conversation. I got to think how I'm going to talk about it with other people so they can receive information and they can go take it and research it for themselves. So anyway.
02:01:39
Speaker
So normally, I talk, I usually pray in the beginning and pray at the end and close, so I'll just do that here. Yes, that'd be great. Heavenly Father, Lord, in the name of Jesus, we want to thank you so much for this opportunity. We know any time to appear gathered, they are in the midst, so we appreciate the time that we spent today to discuss your word.
02:01:56
Speaker
Lord, I pray that we continue to grow and fellowship with one another and also in relationship with you. I pray that we're mindful, thoughtful as it comes to your word, Lord. We know that your word is foundational, that it's true, that it's sharp than any devil's sword, that it's living and it's active. So I pray that as we depart,
02:02:16
Speaker
one another but never your presence that we remain in a desire to get to know one another more get to know you more but more importantly build a community of believers that have a desire to grow in relationship with one another and also you Lord.
02:02:30
Speaker
I pray for protection and guidance over us as we depart. I pray that we are mindful of the things that are happening in front of us, behind us, to the left, to the right. I pray that we're not only just continuing to look for the opportunities to just have these conversations, but that these conversations don't fall on deaf ears, but that your word remains rooted.
02:02:50
Speaker
We hide our word and our hearts so that we may not sin against you. We make sure that your word is also continuing to keep us accountable for the things that we ought to do. So Lord, I pray that we think about such things that are true, noble, pure, right, admirable, excellent, praiseworthy. I think also, Lord, that the most important thing is that we continue to build and build upon something that you will be able to use us as instruments of righteousness and our wickedness, to use us in places where
02:03:20
Speaker
it's most important to need and for us to continue to learn more and more about you because there's so much more to learn about you that is never a limit to our knowledge of you but that is limitless, Lord. So I pray and I ask these things that we add to our faith goodness and to goodness knowledge and to knowledge self-control and to self-control perseverance and perseverance, guidedness and validness, mutual affection.
02:03:41
Speaker
and love that we put on the full armor of God as we go out, knowing that it's not about flesh and blood, but it's about the principalities, the spiritual forces that we are dealing with. It's not the individuals that we meet, but it's the captainess that comes into the heart. So guide us, protect us, we know that you're out for the mega beginning the end, creator of all things, and anything that reacts if it's according to your will,
02:04:04
Speaker
Here we do, so we place our faith in that. And Lord, we say these things with surety and confidence in you. In Jesus' name we pray, amen. Amen.
02:04:43
Speaker
you