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CMCL - When HR Loses Its Way: DEI, SHRM, and the Future of Work with Tara Turk-Haynes
41 Plays2 months ago
In this episode of Changing Minds and Changing Lives, host Julie Sowash, CEO of Catch 22 Group and the Job Board Doctor, and founder of Disability Solutions, sits down with Tara Turk-Haynes — strategist, storyteller, equity activator, and founding member of Hacking HR — for a candid, no-nonsense conversation about the state of DEI in today’s workplaces and the growing controversy surrounding SHRM’s shift away from diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Together, Julie and Tara unpack how SHRM’s recent decisions — including its rebranding of DEI, the leadership of CEO Johnny C. Taylor, and the 2025 SHRM Blueprint Conference featuring keynote panelists Van Jones and Robby Starbuck — signal deeper issues about values, leadership, and the future of human resources.
Tara shares her personal journey from administrative assistant to executive leader, the lessons she’s learned about data-driven inclusion, and why equity — not just diversity or inclusion — is what truly transforms workplaces. The two also discuss how performative allyship, “chameleon leadership,” and the erosion of worker-centered advocacy threaten progress, and what individuals can do to push back.
If you care about the future of work, human-centered leadership, and how organizations can uphold equity even in a polarized environment, this is a must-listen conversation.
✨ Key Topics:
· SHRM’s controversial move from DEI to “I&D” and what it really means
· How leadership values shape (and sometimes distort) workplace culture
· The impact of politics and performative allyship on HR credibility
· Why data and empathy must coexist in equitable workplaces
· Practical ways HR pros and employees can take action locally
Notes:
Guest:
Tara Turk-Haynes — Strategist, storyteller, and equity activator; founder of Equity Activations; featured in Fast Company and Harvard Business Review; known for blending strategy, creativity, and inclusion to build sustainable change.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Changing Minds and Changing Lives'
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome to Changing Minds and Changing Lives, the podcast where we celebrate the innovators and changemakers transforming how we work, how we lead, and how we connect on a human level.
00:00:18
Speaker
um I am, as always, your humble host, Julie Sowach, CEO of Catch-22 Group and founder and strategic advisor to Disability Solutions.
Meet Tara Turk-Haynes
00:00:28
Speaker
Today we have quite a treat for you, someone I've been trying to get on the podcast for quite some time.
00:00:34
Speaker
um Joining us today is Tara Turk-Haynes, strategist, storyteller, equity activator, and talent leader. Tara is one of those leaders who bring strategy and heart to the world of work, which we massively need.
00:00:49
Speaker
She is a founding member of Hacking HR and a member of Harvard Business Review, which I am a big reader of. um She's at the forefront of reimagining modern workplaces, blending, one thing that I love, data, creativity, and inclusion to turn good intentions into content.
00:01:05
Speaker
actual sustainable results. Tara's been featured in Fast Company, Redefining HR, and on stages like Culture First and where I got to see her just over the last couple weeks at RecFest in the United States.
00:01:19
Speaker
And I'm so excited
Controversy: SHRM's Shift Away from DEI
00:01:21
Speaker
to welcome her. We're going to talk today about some of the ongoing controversy with SHRM and their choice to move away from DEI and the controversy around their keynote speakers at 2025 SHRM Blueprint Conference.
00:01:35
Speaker
um And to wrap it up, I think we're going to try to, we may not have time, move um into how SHRM, as they move away from DEI, how that is going to further impact AI bias.
Tara's Journey: From Admin to Talent Leader
00:01:50
Speaker
And as I always like to wrap up, what you all can do about it so after that very lengthy introduction which i still didn't do her justice on welcome to changing minds changing lives oh thank you so much i'm super excited and super excited about this conversation so um yeah thank you for having me in that gorgeous like introduction i'm just gonna record it and it's like i mean i'm sorry mean Well, thank you. I'll take that.
00:02:19
Speaker
oh and So let's talk about you first. yeah Okay. So I know you, I've been following your work for several years, but tell our listeners about you and how you got involved in HR nta strategy and and kind of some of those tangibles about how it's helped you guide companies through um to build strategies that are inclusive of DEI and have that DEI lens us as a focal point.
00:02:44
Speaker
Yeah. Um, so I'm a first generation college graduate and first generation corporate worker. Um, I, um, you know, when I graduated from college, my, um, I went to get a theater degree as a master's degree. My parents were like, amazing. what are you going to do with that? Because they, you know, they were, my dad worked on the line for 40 years at Ford before he passed away. My mom has always worked in clerical,
00:03:08
Speaker
um And really kind of never advanced further than that. So, you know, I'm the hopes and dreams I'm supposed to continue on. And, you know, as a playwright, which i you know, am um and claim, I was like, I can't be an artist and make a living. So I started off like most people and doing administrative work, um temping. And then ah most of my career at the beginning was executive assistant, luckily to C-suite executives, which allowed me to um, see the business from a really interesting perspective. Uh, I think is is a lot of times people think administrative assistants are invisible and they treat people that way. And so your true personality comes out as a work, you know, as a person in the company, how you treat administrative assistants. Um,
00:03:55
Speaker
And so, but it allowed me to learn em about the business, learn about, you know, personalities, how to navigate. I just did a post on LinkedIn about all the jobs that have helped me get to where I am. And it was like definitely one of them along with babysitter. But yeah.
00:04:11
Speaker
But it definitely allows you to get an almost like an MBA with for free, right. When you're an assistant. that Um, and so I never knocked those jobs and I was lucky enough to have a boss, chief people officer of ticket master at the time, Beverly Carmichael, who had come from Southwest, um,
00:04:27
Speaker
ah
Transition to Talent Acquisition
00:04:28
Speaker
she saw something in me. It was basically like, I think you'd be really great talent acquisition. And I was like, uh, okay. You know, what is that? And she's like, you're just, you're good with people. you know how to talk to people. You have a good, you know, all of these different sort of skills that we, um,
00:04:44
Speaker
kind take for granted as people. Like when we talk about transferable skills, we, you know, she she embodied exactly what we think when we say a leader should be able to recognize internal mobility and advocate for others. So I started doing talent acquisition from a corporate level.
00:04:59
Speaker
um And that began my career as a people person. I, um you know, worked in startups. ah I have worked, you know, midsize public companies.
00:05:10
Speaker
um So most of my my focus has been you know, talent acquisition in terms of like, Access for people who sometimes get often ignored. Because when I started tempting, I had an agency recruiter when I had dreadlocks tell me that I need to comb my hair out if I wanted a really professional job.
00:05:28
Speaker
And i vowed at that point to never, ever, ever make anyone feel like they don't belong. It's really about like, what can you contribute? And I'm always interested in sort of, I hated the power dynamics of companies just being like, we get to tell you what to do and how to show up here.
00:05:44
Speaker
This is a mutual transactional relationship we have, right? You're hiring me because I'm really good at what I do. And I'm here because you should be looking out for the business so we can all work together. And I've always been very passionate about that. And that's been sort of my focus when I think about talent acquisition. And so ah at some point in 2020, the company I was working for but basically was like, you know, after this George Floyd murder, what are we doing?
Implementing DEI Post-George Floyd
00:06:11
Speaker
Are we being, at most companies, the same. Everyone had an awakening because we're, you know, pandemic, we're at home, we're, you know, questioning our lives. but like the like What are we doing? um And so I got to implement a strategy that really, truly for me, and it was a work in progress and I was not perfect, but how do I truly make sure people feel Like they can be successful no matter what their background is in this company from the time they apply until the time they leave. And so that was my point of view when I ah was VP of DE&I and Talent Acquisition at Leaf Group is how can I make sure people are showing up
00:06:48
Speaker
And we have psychological safety. It really resulted in us having like the highest engagement score in the company. We kept people together during the pandemic. All of our events were very well attended.
00:06:59
Speaker
um we i was able to bring people like Kat Kibben in and talk. And like but it was just, you know, Dr. William Jelani Cobb from MSNBC. He was a good friend of mine. we I brought people together to have conversations and then that reflected in the workplace so that we could actually improve the workplace.
00:07:17
Speaker
And how I use data basically is like measuring everything. I honestly got to know that data could be the best storyteller that you have. I feel like people walk into a company and they think their feelings are facts, right?
00:07:30
Speaker
I feel like our company is disengaged. Your feeling is so biased. What are you using to actually measure that? Why do you need to measure that? Because we spend time, money, and resource on feelings is a poor business strategy.
00:07:43
Speaker
I want to be able to put something into something that allows us to see what our ah ROI is. So we can't ignore data. We can't ignore that kind of um um um strategy. And that's why I believe that people's strategy is so very important
Founding a Company and Learning Across Industries
00:07:56
Speaker
to business strategies. And that's why, you know, I started my company. um It's been really great. I've been working with people across many different industries. It's a learning lesson for me across the board.
00:08:05
Speaker
No one size fits all. But, um and you know, it's been a great journey for me and I'm really grateful to be on it. Yeah, that's that's amazing. And I just like want to call out one thing just because I've been having this conversation a lot and I'm hearing it a lot from from younger Gen Z, you know, workers as they're coming in is that where you started yeah is not where you're finishing.
00:08:28
Speaker
and Right. and i as And I remember feeling the same way when I was, you know, 25, like, hey, i'm I'm not a VP yet. Why is this? You know, I've i've failed at life. I must might as well just pay it up.
00:08:40
Speaker
But taking away all of the things or all of these lessons in your journey make you better at your job now. It makes you successful as your own company, your own entity.
00:08:54
Speaker
um And I think that's just such an important thing for um yeah all of us to take away. But then it is that journey. And I appreciate you saying that mostly because it's on my heart because I got three Gen Zs at home.
00:09:06
Speaker
Yeah. ah you know But I think for for our community, too, as you're thinking about entering the workforce, reentering the workforce, know that there's something unique that you should be taking away from your current job.
00:09:17
Speaker
Yes. That's going to apply as your career grows. So say thank you for that. And thanks for like the the detail. um I didn't know about your Ticketmaster background.
00:09:29
Speaker
Yeah, though, I mean, that's so great to like, again, when we're talking about modeling behaviors, pulling in your your talent that's, you know, or filing, listening, setting schedules, you know, learning about budgets, doing all of this incredible work that never really gets recognized and not such a skill in leadership.
00:09:47
Speaker
It really is. And I love what you said about your journey. And I sometimes tell people, you know, I do some coaching, not a lot of it. um ah usually for, you know, really special cases. But I tell people to think of it as when you're traveling, right? If I'm going to go to a country, I want to know, you know, what experiences do I want to have? What food do I want to know about? What people do I want to know about? Your jobs are almost like that, right? you're're You're experiencing something to take on to the next adventure that you have.
00:10:16
Speaker
And so you, you know, are there days where, you know, my parents were but were boomers and like, You know, like I said, my dad was at Ford for 40 years. I think it was his only job. Like that absolutely, absolutely never happens anymore. So where you think like, how come I haven't reached this this this opportunity yet?
00:10:34
Speaker
That might not be the place for you to reach that opportunity. And that's fine. You just need to take out something that really is valuable for you so you can bring it to the next position. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So, yes.
00:10:47
Speaker
Now let's talk about the ah the controversy of the day. Not that there's not a bazillion we could talk about. um But I want to talk about what's happening at SHRM right now.
00:10:59
Speaker
And as I mentioned before we were recording, you know, just doing our little our prep session, Because we've got a really diverse audience, there may be some of our listeners who don't know what SHRM is yeah and don't know why it's important um as an entity for not just um getting a job, but for understanding how underrepresented communities are moving through talent acquisition and HR. So can you give us like the...
00:11:29
Speaker
I don't know, however long you want to take overview of SHRM and why they're important to job seekers. Yeah.
Debate: SHRM's Role and Leadership
00:11:37
Speaker
So SHRM is a society for ah human resources management.
00:11:41
Speaker
And for many years, they have been the epitome, right, organization representing human resource professionals. Yeah. with a little bit of marketing, a lot of advocacy, a lot of ah lobbying, right? Because they also represent HR professionals in a, you know, in front of governments, which is, there is no other HR organization that does that, which is huge.
00:12:06
Speaker
um They, you know, ah when business leaders do not know if somebody is going to be good at the HR leader or HR job that they post, maybe they do it once they have one HR person or whatever.
00:12:19
Speaker
The previously, if somebody had those certifications that SHRM offered, that told that business leader, OK, I've got somebody who knows exactly what they're doing. It's just like CPA or any kind of thing like that. Right.
00:12:32
Speaker
The problem. Right. That do we now have is that there's a monopoly. they They have a monopoly on representing HR professionals and their values are starting to slowly misalign with a lot of members of the community.
00:12:47
Speaker
um Now that we have ah Johnny Taylor as the head of SHRM, who's been there for a few years at this point, it ah it it seems as though they have bended the knee towards whatever administration is in office at that moment.
00:13:04
Speaker
and taken on the perspectives of that administration. And currently, this current one that we have is not very friendly towards the LGBTQ community, the trans community.
00:13:17
Speaker
um Anyone who is not, ah you know, ah you know black women or, you know Black men, for that matter, they have no interest in sort of dealing with any kind of the socioeconomic identities, 40 plus of them, that ah that we all can have, right? There's 40 plus of them.
00:13:38
Speaker
And so just because, and I think when people talk about DE&I, since I've overseen it, the thing that I always hear is people think it's just race and it's just gender and maybe your sexuality, We are talking ageism. We're talking about veterans. We are talking about ah English as a first, second language. We're talking about socioeconomic, like how did you grow up poor, rich. will All of these different things make up who you are as an individual.
00:14:00
Speaker
And that's really incredibly important if you are an HR professional within the workplace to acknowledge that because your workplace is made up of those people. So SHRM has decided to remove, you know, the diversity issue.
00:14:13
Speaker
um an equity piece. Equity is so important because equity is not about like, diversity is like how many different people we have, right? Equity is, are we all having the same experience together, you know, no matter what our background is.
00:14:26
Speaker
So for an an HR like ah organization to say, we don't want to deal with equity is a problem, right? Because that means people in the workplace We don't care if you're all if you are a veteran's wife. We don't care if you're having the same experience as, you know, so-and-so who grab graduated from an Ivy League a school. Because though there may be inequities in how you've gotten a job, how you're treated, we as an ah HR organization are not going to deal with that.
00:14:52
Speaker
And that is a huge problem because it's not going to go away. It's just that you don't want to talk about it. So, you know, now we're in this place where SHRM has become – you know The de facto, if if if business leaders see these certifications, they're just like, this is a great HR person. And it's not true. There are a lot of people great on-the-job experience. You could be an ah HR professional for 20 years and never get a SHRM certification and probably know ton more than that person.
00:15:17
Speaker
How to be on-the-job experience is really important. Secondly, who else is going to advocate for us in front of government agencies, right? So if we're talking about trans rights, if we're talking about, you know, the 300 plus black women who've been poor pushed out of the workplace since, you know, this administration and administration has come in who's advocating for us?
00:15:38
Speaker
This organization has decided not to. So that's a problem, right? Because there is no other organization. And how do we, and I think that's what have been on my mind is like how do we bring light to that. One of the things I've been asking is business leaders to stop putting SHRM certifications on their job descriptions for ah HR professionals.
00:15:58
Speaker
That doesn't necessarily mean that someone has the experience that you're looking for. I'd rather you be a lot more specific about like, what is it you're actually looking for? Don't blanket it under a SHRM certification. Also, they have an amazing local chapters who are at odds with the national organization.
00:16:16
Speaker
And how do we best support those local chapters who really believe in all of these um advocacy rights and everything so that their voices are heard? So there's a lot of different conversations we should be having, but we're at a crossroads, right?
00:16:30
Speaker
So who's going to represent us in the way that allows us all to have our voice equally heard? Yeah, I think that is such a good and robust explanation of the power that SHRM carries. And and i ah you know I remember when I first sort of got into this work,
00:16:51
Speaker
more than a decade ago now, um thinking, oh, i'm I'm not an HR person. i'm I'm a disability consultant. I'm a tech person. I'm ah a process person.
00:17:03
Speaker
I'm a compliance person. But I probably should get my SHRM certification so people take me seriously. Yeah. And there's such an air of... of um yeah it's very, what's the word I'm looking for? it It feels like such a, like, if you're not a member, it's very elitist. Like we don't want you. If you're not a member, we don't take you as seriously.
00:17:27
Speaker
um If you don't have that certification and I'm not like dissing certifications. I think that having some sort of demonstration of how we do the work is not a bad thing but um to have. But as I've sort of watched the,
00:17:40
Speaker
the organization evolve over the last, let's say, five to six years. um I've become quite concerned. um And I don't think this is controversial. I don't really care because I just sort of say what I think. But under under John A.C. Taylor's leadership, what I've seen, i would say even at a broader level or higher level than just moving away from DEI, is that they' that the tone is almost anti-worker.
00:18:10
Speaker
Yeah. um And the the couple of times that I've been at an event where I've been able to sit in and and hear Mr. Taylor speak, I that that was my takeaway yeah is people don't want to show up for work. People don't want to do this. People want the you know labors to represent them. They want to get paid more.
00:18:31
Speaker
They don't deserve that. And we're We're all in human resources. Right. And so to have basically the largest advocacy and education organization in the in the world, probably, i mean, at least in the country, but probably in the world.
00:18:47
Speaker
Yeah. um
00:18:51
Speaker
Educating and reinforcing the lack of value that the employee brings to the company is problem. A problem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. And it's interesting because it's so ingrained.
00:19:07
Speaker
ah they're They're so dug in. based on prior reps ah ah rep reputations about what they do, that some companies only fund their HR professionals to go to a SHRM certification the once a year.
00:19:22
Speaker
They won't even pay for ah HR people to go to other conferences that probably have a lot more ah ROI than SHRM. And that's a huge problem too. So you're saying the only thing you're going to pay for is that person to gather with other people under a um environment, like you said, that is so anti-worker.
00:19:42
Speaker
And that's the reason why our voices are really important is because we need to let a lot of the business leaders know that that's not the way we want to be represented um and giving more power to local chapters, um allowing other certification or conferences to be able to ah ah yeah you know, be on the docket to yeah for you to get reimbursed or get more professional development in conferences that really will give you actually what you need to be a better HR professional.
00:20:14
Speaker
We have to stop saying that SHRM's, you know, their PRs, like it's the best and the most elite. And you're right. A lot of, and I know because the SHRM, listen, the SHRM test is not easy. I know this for a fact, but It's not a reason for you to then treat other people as though if they don't have a certification that they don't belong because we are all in human resources and we really need to stick together and adjust the problems of our actual people within the organization. Right. And be equipped to do that.
00:20:43
Speaker
Yeah, no, I think that's that's such a great point. um And I do also appreciate you calling out the importance of the local chapters because you're 100 percent right. I talk to local H.R.A. SHRM leaders who are not aligned with where national is going.
00:20:58
Speaker
and And let's be honest, like. Like politics, we talk about what happens at the federal level. Yeah. And that's critically important. But so much of the good work, that critical work gets done locally.
00:21:12
Speaker
but um And so kudos to those SHRM leaders that are are doing the work and and really striving to keep or to get SHRM inclusive and engaged and human first.
00:21:24
Speaker
um And so you mentioned just a little bit um when you were giving your
SHRM's Shift to IND: Implications and Critiques
00:21:29
Speaker
overview. So several years ago, i think it was two years ago, maybe three, SHRM decided to move from DEI, diversity, equity, inclusion, and to go to IND.
00:21:42
Speaker
So inclusion and diversity. yeah And it was such opportunity odd move um in terms of like where did this come from why did they make this decision um who were they trying to please with with this move and it just felt so out of the blue to me and not not aligned with anything that we were seeing at the moment um did did you have the same reaction or is there something i missed I ah was not surprised um because I believe that the organization, again, models the behavior of the administration.
00:22:24
Speaker
And as soon as the election was over, I knew that there would be a lot of companies that were going to transition. the companies that were doing it because it was performative We're going to remove DEI with the quickness, like literally just the I don't want it. The companies that didn't have the resources to fight the administration, because the administration has definitely put a war on DEI because they've weaponized what diversity, equity, inclusion means.
00:22:54
Speaker
Um, and, and given, uh, misinformation on those definitions and people have ran with that. Um, they don't want, you know, you know, mean, you slang, they don't want that smoke. So they're just trying to like, I don't want to use my legal team and all of my company's resources to fight this thing. So either I'm going to go underground or I'm going to remove it completely. We're just going to do the work.
00:23:15
Speaker
And listen, don't fault any of them. I tell some of my clients who do this work, I don't need you to do a press release about how great you are when it comes to advocating for people. across the board when we're talking about diversity, equity, inclusion, I want you to do the work. i don't care if you get acknowledged for it.
00:23:29
Speaker
um But the, but you know, the rumor being that Johnny Taylor wanted a position and this, you know, the cabinet of this administration and doing whatever he could as a leader of this HR organization to show that he could be that um was not surprising to me.
00:23:48
Speaker
um, I do feel like that was a move towards pleasing, you know, the government that they show up in front of and repeat, you know, inaccurately ah the current ah HR environment, which and really bothers me as well.
00:24:05
Speaker
So they what they said was they are folding equity into... D, I, which is impossible because they all kind of three exist separately. They all have separate functions. Diversity is one thing.
00:24:18
Speaker
Equity and inclusion is another thing. And equity is the one thing that actually moves the needle for people. It makes sure your pay is equitable, right? and It makes for your performance reviews, how your boss treats you.
00:24:31
Speaker
Equity is the part that actually allows you to show up within the organization and make you feel like, okay, we're on some level of a playing field here. Inclusion is how you feel about that, right?
00:24:42
Speaker
Diversity is basically how many people can show up and say the same thing. So to remove the piece that actually moves the needle was not surprising to me. And I'm so glad you said that because I had forgotten about the trying to get in the the cabinet.
00:24:58
Speaker
You're totally right. I remember that. yeah And, you know, and that's that's a representation of what's best for him, not what's best for learning the organization. okay so as we're recording this, um it's October 27th tomorrow, um depending on when you're listening to this.
00:25:14
Speaker
um October 28th, 2025, SHRM is holding a conference called SHRM Blueprint. and Sherm Blueprint I think is new it's not one I had heard of before but it's kind of like their their new DEI Sherm you know inclusion I guess show um and to kick off this incredible um new way of looking at DEI, um Johnny C. Taylor has invited two incredibly controversial um individuals to be the keynote four um for the event, and that will happen on October 28th in the morning. So if you're listening to this after, we probably have some more strong opinions about it than we do now when that's going to be saying something.
00:26:05
Speaker
Mm-hmm. So tomorrow morning, um Robbie Starbuck and Van Jones are going to be joining a moderated conversation with SHRM CEO
Van Jones and Robbie Starbuck: Controversial Figures
00:26:19
Speaker
Johnny C. Taylor um to talk about how to engage everyone, how to hear other thoughts about um And be open to those as as part of our IND programs.
00:26:33
Speaker
And so let's talk about first. um
00:26:39
Speaker
Van Jones. So I know Van Jones from my days of watching CNN when he was a a Democratic strategist. Mm And didn't always agree with things that Van had to say, but didn't really in that time period find him to be very controversial.
00:26:59
Speaker
Now that has changed or there are things that I didn't know about. And so I want to start with and and again to ensure that we are. Not just favoring one side versus the other, but to say that both of these gentlemen have past and comments that are concerning. Yeah.
00:27:16
Speaker
what What does Van bring to the table? And what are some of, if you were picking a SHRM speaker, what what caveats would you say? Maybe, maybe Van's not the right person to be having this conversation with.
00:27:28
Speaker
Um, so historically, and I was thinking about this before our conversation, Van and Johnny Taylor to me are similar in that their backgrounds, they're like chameleons. Their backgrounds are going to match the environment that they're in.
00:27:44
Speaker
Right. Um, Van, you know, um, Started off really strong community organizer, you know, was in Barack Obama's ah cabinet, um you know, has some really esteemed, you know, um organizing organizations, the Ella Baker Foundation, Color of Change. Like he's worked in some really incredible places.
00:28:06
Speaker
And that transition to media pundit or media personality, I think, is where the transition kind of ah became perplexing um in that as soon as you get on television, um you know, I have friends who are on these political shows and your point of view is has to be very strong. And the only way you get keep getting booked is if you can say something That lands.
00:28:32
Speaker
That's very strong. Sometimes they don't always agree with it, right? We can look at some of these these talking head shows. I wish we would get back to reporting journalism, but that's another that's another show altogether. Right now, we're just listening to a lot of people have a lot of opinions, right?
00:28:47
Speaker
about different things, but you have to stand out in that group. And I think Van has done whatever he can to be able to stand out in that group, including saying things that are incredibly polarizing at some point.
00:28:59
Speaker
um I will say for a lot of the members the Black community that I belong to, they do not necessarily see him as a representative of who we are. He is wishy-washy at times. I remember, you know, when Trump got elected, um He went full thr throttle in saying that he, that was a very presidential, you know, um, you know, like we were just like, excuse me.
00:29:22
Speaker
Like, did we all listen to the same thing? um whether you agree or not, but like the, the switch was so, uh, quick that we're like, are you, what are you actually listening to? And are you placating to be able to stay relevant? Right. Right.
00:29:39
Speaker
like most recently has had some really a huge controversy about the Gazan children image, um starving Gazan children um um image and saying it was misinformation um that benefited other you know on countries.
00:29:55
Speaker
And really, it was on Bill Maher and he got attacked. He literally was just like, you cannot... How can you fall for these kinds of things when you have such a prestigious background as someone like Ella Baker, who is like pivotal to the black community in terms of organization in your bio? How are you coming on television and saying something so incredibly wrong and misinformed?
00:30:17
Speaker
So it's like it's slippery. He's on it's untrustworthy. This voice that we're using. And i'm and i'm and it's I'm not surprised because what we're doing is we're they're presenting a conversation with people who don't necessarily have very strong differing opinions or views, right? Like if I can't trust what Van is ascertaining, Robbie Starbuck is not going to be somebody that like I will ever agree with as well. And Johnny Taylor, again, similarities in Van Jones's background, right? johnny taylor
00:30:52
Speaker
you know um You know, candidly, was the ah head of HR when I was at Ticketmaster because IAC owned Ticketmaster. So I've interacted with Johnny. Johnny was an amazing person back then and definitely advocated for people. So there again has been this transition that's different, right? This is not the person I feel like that started off.
00:31:14
Speaker
And now we're in this other place. And so we're having a conversation with three people who I think are not going to have very strongly different experiences. pieces of information, right?
00:31:25
Speaker
I don't think, and there's, there isn't one person who's going to say, you're wrong, Robbie Starbuck. We can talk a little bit about who Robbie Starbuck is at some point. um And I can't believe that you're saying these horrib horrific things about, you know, these communities that we all have friends and loved ones who belong to.
00:31:46
Speaker
especially when we're talking about the workplace there isn't going to be on somebody on that stage who's going to say you can't say that that's ridiculous and that's what worries me so i think that is such i just want to stop and capture that for a minute because what you've said i think is if i could pick the number one problem problem yeah i'm sort of talking off the top of my head so bear with me guys is that it's
00:32:14
Speaker
It's the chameleon. It is the weakness of of trying to stay relevant instead of living by what you're yes what your values were, ah at least we think were, at White's Lane.
00:32:29
Speaker
Right. And maybe it's always been the chameleon and it's always gone with the times. But as I'm looking at, you know... Frankly, companies we've worked with for a long time, companies I've respected, companies that I know were committed to doing the work.
00:32:46
Speaker
just walk away from it. And that, to me, that is the biggest um and the biggest insult, the biggest, um you know, kind of slap to the face of people who are in underrepresented communities and to workers in general, is that this wishy-washy, we just go with it.
00:33:06
Speaker
And people like Robbie Starbuck, They are who they are. Yeah. They are unapologetically who they are. Yeah. um And when you have someone who will live and die on the hill that they believe in, whether it's right or wrong.
00:33:23
Speaker
Yeah. Those people move others. Yeah. And when we have leaders who are just willing to go with the tide. Yeah. you know then people get tired of hearing it.
00:33:35
Speaker
People don't want to be a part of an organization. They don't want to be part of a movement that is not based on a firm foundation of this is what we are and this is what we believe.
00:33:47
Speaker
Mission and values are incredibly important. And I think we should get into who Robbie Starbuck is for those who don't know. It's like... Literally was a video producer director whose child came home and talked about the lesson that they learned and how it was about, ah ah believe it was LGBTQ in nature. And was so enraged that his child was learning about people who have a difference in their backgrounds.
00:34:17
Speaker
um And so offended that he decided to devote his entire um professional career and personal ah by going after companies who had DEI programs.
00:34:29
Speaker
um He is and has no experience, by the way, in any of these programs. He was, at like i said, a video producer and director. And just researched court you know quarterly annual reports.
00:34:42
Speaker
Any company who was reporting on any kind of measurement when it came to data and demographics, ah specifically those who had LGBTQ plus community ah come up programs for their their workers there so that they felt seen secure, you know, psychologically safe, um was outraged and just kept building a social media audience that allowed him to go after them with a vengeance. We can say that some companies did not bend the knee.
00:35:08
Speaker
They will still, he you know, he can be an activist in his own mind, but I don't know if that's what the word I would use. And because the sentiment of of his ah target is shared by this administration, he's gotten a lift, right? So that um there is no government organization that's going to say, you've got to stop this because you are discriminating against other people, right?
00:35:34
Speaker
Yeah. there that That barrier has been removed because he has shared sentiment. So even though he does not belong to the LGBTQ community, he has nothing to do with it. He just doesn't want that kind of um awareness to be in a workplace because that's just not what he wants.
00:35:52
Speaker
and so and he thinks And there are a lot of other people, he thinks, who are who feel the same way. So again... Nothing to do with you. You can't let people live their lives. B, have their beautifully diverse backgrounds.
00:36:04
Speaker
Show up at work so they can contribute to their success in the best way possible. ah Let companies know that these people are welcome. You are going to target those specific companies and say really heinous and horrendous things on social media.
00:36:18
Speaker
If you want to go to a social media, you can. i have blocked him because it's protecting my um nervous system. I don't need to see that. So um to have someone share that stage. I do think the the the the interesting thing is like a lot of people have been talking about how awful Shirm has been since, you know, for a few years now.
00:36:37
Speaker
But this recent conversation has awakened some people, I think, who did not, weren't aware or before, right? I've seen people left and right commenting on LinkedIn about how they're canceling their SHRM memberships because this is just too far. Because the world is changing. We all have somebody in our lives that we love dearly who belongs to this community and other communities because we know we only, we don't target just one.
00:37:02
Speaker
We target other ones, right? When we have fear.
Impact of Political Changes on DEI
00:37:05
Speaker
Fear-based ah racism, you know, misogyny, homophobia. it's always Somebody else is always going to be the target.
00:37:13
Speaker
We have people that we love and protect viciously. And so this has to be a line in the sand for a lot of people. And I've seen them say, like, this is a bridge too far. This is it. I can't do this.
00:37:25
Speaker
I think that there um mean there's so much to unpack. um We could probably just do an entire conversation on this. Yeah. well Last year, so just prior to the the election, i did a webinar that talked about um basically kind of What are are our three kind of barriers or or impediments that we're going to see in 2025 if the administration um changed over to what it is now?
00:37:56
Speaker
And one of the the first pieces is the to stick, right? So we've lost um affirmative action. We have taken the teeth out of Section 503, out of um we We have lost the agency yes in in all but name that actually does the work of making sure that proactively companies are engaging talent with a variety of backgrounds to get an equitable opportunity.
00:38:32
Speaker
ah hiring process yeah that allows companies to capture people that they otherwise wouldn't. yeah um And then the the second one is really where Robbie Serbuk came in is the um is the the PR. Right. So it's the it's the voice of it. And I love what you said, because, you know, oftentimes when I talk to the team at DS, and I'm like, we just need to put our head down and do the work.
00:38:56
Speaker
the The results speak for themselves. Yeah. And so we're now at this point where we are losing marketing's interest in it, right? We're losing that second that second pillar of like, well, if I can't put out a press release before, what is really the point of doing it kind of kind of thing, right?
00:39:13
Speaker
um and And Robbie Starbuck specifically, um i thought it was really interesting, targeted um late last year Brands that male-dominated type of brands, like a Harley Davidson, like um Caterpillar, John Deere, those um masculine. i ah If you could see me, I'm air-quoting everything I'm saying here.
00:39:38
Speaker
um and so Those masculine brands because he felt that it was a disservice to men yeah for those brands to engage in supporting their LGBTQ workforce, their Black workforce, their disabled workforce.
00:39:58
Speaker
And I don't know where we lose in the conversation about young white men that or or young men period, is that they're also disabled. They're also people of color.
00:40:10
Speaker
They're also LGBTQ individuals. And ignoring that doesn't make a man or a brand more masculine. yeah um And that to me, I mean, I've read some of his his tweets this morning about the director of the Louvre, and I just...
00:40:30
Speaker
Nonsense. Nonsense. But what is your take? what If you're having these conversations, what is your take on how to have ah I don't want to say a productive. shouldn't have a productive conversation with someone like him. But how do you educate the people that you're working with about how to help yeah them understand from both a brand and a workforce perspective that being inclusive of others is not being uninclusive of men?
Inclusivity: Business Sense and Future Risks
00:40:59
Speaker
Yeah. um So a couple things. like i So ah first of all, say I would never have a conversation with Robbie Starbuck because he's committed to He's dubbed deep. And I think where a lot of us have um wasted very valuable time, energy, resource, resilience, and hope is trying to convince people who are very much committed to not engaging in any kind of conversation about other people's humanity.
00:41:26
Speaker
If I have to convince you of other people's humanity, I'm wasting my time. This is a lost cause. I have conversations with people who are genuinely curious about how to be better and what their lived experience has not taught them that they would love to know about other people.
00:41:45
Speaker
But one of the things I do is my in my business is I say, this makes... complete business sense for you. The census is changing just because you don't want to talk about how intersectional other people are. And to intersectional for those who don't know, that means you have multiple of these social identities we talked about, just like you just said, Julie, which is, you know, you can be a man and be part of the LGBT community.
00:42:08
Speaker
And be a veteran, right? And be English as a second language and not come from a lot of money. So that's four different things, right? You can be so... Multiple things we are talking about when we talk about DEI, right?
00:42:22
Speaker
Multiple things. Um... To create a monolith, an idea of what just one person looks like is doing a disservice and your business is going to falter.
00:42:33
Speaker
You will not be able, if you feel like you can have an a ah homogenous business, I tell people, by all means, go for it. You don't want to change. You don't want other customers or and future employees to be able to see themselves thriving, engaging with your business. By all means, do whatever you think is best.
00:42:49
Speaker
If you are the kind of person who is looking 10, 15, 20 years down the line about how my business can still exist, then you better start thinking about how to how to cater to other people who don't necessarily just look like you immediately, right?
00:43:04
Speaker
Because these younger generations that are entering the workforce do not have the same patience, right? I think that other generations who have been in the workforce for a long time, we are, you know, I'm part of, I'm young Gen X. I am literally just like, you know, still unlearning some really bad habits that the boomers and, you know, that learns who also learned from other generations. We were not taught that we had power.
00:43:30
Speaker
The younger generations who are coming into the workplace definitely are carving out their own power. They're not going to stand for a lot of this stuff. And I'm not saying that they all believe you know, very much into DEI, diversity, whatever.
00:43:43
Speaker
But I am saying a lot of them are recognizing all of the different parts of who they are themselves. And they want to go someplace that represents that and allows them to really be successful in an organization. And if you are not that organization, I do not want to hear your think pieces about why it's so hard to find good talent. I just don't want to do that.
00:44:00
Speaker
So You know, I'm working with organizations who are like, we're trying to plan for the future and we're doing that presently. If you're a company that doesn't want to do that, that's fine. as You know, one of the, and I'll really quick story, John Deere, which is one of the companies that you mentioned, I had a friend who did a beautiful documentary on the plight of black farmer, farm workers and, um and on, you on a black our land rights, which has been historical in our country.
00:44:32
Speaker
You know, that basically means, um you know, African-Americans who had family members in the South who may have had land, whether it's because of, you know, racism or Jim Crow or whatever.
00:44:44
Speaker
Not very well documented. How are they able to keep their land rights? A lot of it has been stolen from them. Beautiful documentary. Why? Because their chief diversity officer was a black man who was going through that very thing ah with land rights.
00:44:57
Speaker
As soon as this administration came into play, as soon as Robbie Starbuck came, that man was fired. That documentary exists. But we are talking about the beauty is that... Some of those John Deere customers who are black farmers saw that John Deere cared about them, that they recognized that they were customers, right?
00:45:18
Speaker
And they could proudly say, i have John Deere. John Deere did something that reflects my identity. Now that's gone. You might lose and an entire swath of customers because you decided to bend the knee, right?
00:45:33
Speaker
That makes terrible business sense to me. Yeah, and and Robbie Starbuck really pushes that DEI is not good for ah ROI. Yeah. And we know that's bullshit.
00:45:45
Speaker
Right. We know that. Yeah. And time and time and time again, the data proves that that story is wrong. Correct. But when he's, if we're not using our voices collectively, that's the voice that gets heard. And I think that's, you know, when we go back to the wishy-washy and all of those things, it's like,
00:46:06
Speaker
Facts are facts. Right. And this fact is untrue. Right. And this fact is true. And we need leaders who are going to continue to do that. And what Van Jones, presumably, and certainly as demonstrated over time, Johnny C. Taylor, are not going to do is push back and make that point.
00:46:27
Speaker
And nobody wants to get on board with those guys. na No, no. That is exactly the point I was going to make. There's no reason to think that Van Jones or Johnny C. Taylor are going to bring up ah why black farmers now may not support John Deere anymore.
00:46:41
Speaker
Right. Yeah. um You know, we're talking about immigration right now. We're talking about, you know, um ice race. Right. All of these companies who are not doing anything. i mean, you. Living in the present. And we are talking about a conversation where we know three of those individuals are probably not going to bring up repercussions of the current administration and the current efforts to do a lot of erasure of a workforce that truly is important to the vitality of this country.
00:47:11
Speaker
They're not going to bring up the important details about this. And so when you talk about using your voice, I know a lot of people are probably out there like, what can I do? I'm just an individual.
Call to Action Against SHRM's Stance
00:47:20
Speaker
Small moments every single day.
00:47:22
Speaker
If you are working at a company and you see that they post an ah HR job and it says SHRM certified, SHRM certificate required, say something.
00:47:33
Speaker
Tell them, hey, i don't know if you know, but a lot of people are not happy with SHRM as a national organization right now, right? If you're in talent acquisition, you don't have to, you know, shout from the rooftops that you're running an equitable process. You should be doing that anyway, but still continue to do that, right?
00:47:49
Speaker
Seek the humanity in people. If you're in HR, Still, you know, when there are rough days, right? when the When the news is really rough and you know that there are people who might be affected by those headlines, can you just say, hey, you know what? If you can knock off a couple hours early, i know it's been a rough day, or if you need somebody to talk to, or if there's resources that you need, we really have to get back to connecting to people because things like the SHRM certification and the SHRM Association is not doing a great job for the PR of right?
00:48:21
Speaker
right like The more ah HR people talk to each other and pat each other on the back, job well done. Guarantee you there's a lot of employees out there who are still like, I would never trust HR.
00:48:33
Speaker
yep Yeah. We talk to them every day. Yep. Every single day. Right. Exactly. they and they And I think that that gap is... needs to shrink in order for us to actually have a collective voice to do something against an organization like Sherwin.
00:48:50
Speaker
oh ah So I think that is the perfect place to wrap up
Conclusion and Contact Information
00:48:54
Speaker
on. We're going to have to do AI next time if you'll come back for another session. but Love to. We love to. Wonderful, wonderful. So if you can tell our audience how to get connected with you, where to follow you, all the good things.
00:49:07
Speaker
Yes. ah My website, equityactivations.com. You can contact me through there. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on threads. I am on ah Instagram um and on TikTok.
00:49:21
Speaker
Excellent. Tara, thank you so much for joining us, guys. This was such a fun episode. love it. We'll have to, i don't know, debrief after everything happens tomorrow and ah and report back after this is ah this is published. So thank you again for joining us.
00:49:37
Speaker
Guys, have a wonderful day. Catch up on some back episodes. We've had some great conversations this year. And we'll see you next time. Thank you, Julie.