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CMCL Interview: Holly O'Hern
41 Plays1 month ago
Holly O’Hern returns to Changing Minds & Changing Lives for a candid and compassionate conversation with host Julie Sowash about grief in the workplace. Together, they explore the many forms grief can take—from losing a loved one to the quiet mourning of fading DEI commitments. Holly offers thoughtful guidance on how to show up for colleagues who are grieving and why creating space for grief at work is essential for truly inclusive cultures. This episode is a must-listen for leaders, coworkers, and anyone seeking to incorporate empathy into their daily work.
Notes:
Holly O’Hern brings 20+ years of experience in leadership development, DEIB (diversity, equity, inclusion, & belonging), learning and development, team building, and inclusive events and workshops. Specializing in both virtual and in-person training formats, her career has spanned the restaurant industry, the aviation industry, non-profit volunteer leadership, tech, and startups — and her work is informed by her completion of immersive programs on racial equity, trauma-informed workplaces, intentional gathering, collegiate-level DEI certification, and Dr. Brené Brown’s Certified Dare to Lead™ Facilitator program.
Holly believes in supporting and amplifying the voices of people from historically excluded communities and in the importance of all types of people taking responsibility for societal healing. She has been deeply involved in ERG/BRGs, including a talent role that was focused on intersectionality, sponsorship, and corporate oversight and management. She serves in an exec-level role on the Board of Directors for the Chicago Coalition for the Homeless, an organization from which she's learned about racial equity and the systemic impact of advocacy - and was formerly the President of its Associate Board.
Changing Minds and Changing Lives is produced by Disability Solutions, a non-profit consulting firm and leader for global brands in talent acquisition and inclusion for people with disabilities.
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Transcript
Introduction to Julie Sowash and the Podcast
00:00:06
Speaker
Hi everyone, welcome back to Changing Minds and Changing Lives podcast, videocast. Hopefully you're seeing this on video too. um My name is Julie Sowash. I am the founder and now strategic advisor for Disability Solutions and luckily enough, still the podcast host for Changing Minds and Changing Lives.
00:00:26
Speaker
um So excited about some of the shows that we've had this year
Exploring Grief with Holly O'Hearn
00:00:29
Speaker
already. excited about the ones that are coming up, but very, very excited to revisit ah conversation and a guest that we had last year um and to kind of dive into the topic of grieving today and grieving at work.
00:00:45
Speaker
So I'm so privileged and so honored to welcome back to the podcast for her second and hopefully not last visit, Holly O'Hearn, who again is the owner of Regime Change. She's a keynote speaker, entrepreneur.
00:00:58
Speaker
She facilitates amazing trainings with organizations and groups around the country, the world, um on courageous leadership, DEIB, intergenerational teams, and grief at work.
00:01:13
Speaker
So welcome back, Holly. Thanks for agreeing to join us again. I was so looking forward to this. Thanks for having me back, Julie. Yeah, absolutely. So What's new since we chatted last time? Anything to add to your list of ah incredible accomplishments and work that you focus on?
Holly O'Hearn's Journey and Expertise
00:01:29
Speaker
Oh, thank you. Yeah. And actually, just in case anyone didn't join last time, um I'll just add that I'm in Chicago. um i ah Also, my pronouns are she, her, hers. And I'll do a visual introduction, too.
00:01:43
Speaker
I'm a white woman, a Caucasian woman with long red hair. And I'm wearing sort of like a, know, a taupe colored sweater with some like faux pearls on the arms. I was feeling a little, i was i was excited. i was like I was like, I need a nice shirt for Julie. um And then I have an office setting behind me that has plants and books. So um that's my little intro. And yeah, things have been good over here. I've been doing, um yeah, all the things you said. I've been doing a lot of the Brene Brown Dare to Lead work. Yeah.
00:02:11
Speaker
And one thing that I'm actually ah in process of is adding the word coach to my title. um So I'm going through a coaching program that um is is ah tied with the Dare to Lead work, but I'm learning a lot about coaching that I never knew what it was, and I'm excited about how that'll unfold. So in terms of ah my little headline, watch this space, because I'll have another word to get to add to it. But ah yeah, things ah overall, still really enjoying working for myself and um Really enjoying all the topics that you mentioned as well, too.
00:02:43
Speaker
Awesome. Awesome.
The Role of DEIB Language and Adaptation
00:02:44
Speaker
So one other thing that kind of caught my attention when I was prepping to to chat with you today is you are still using DEIB in your description.
00:02:55
Speaker
and one thing that if you've heard me talk lately, um I've been very frustrated about is that we're seeing such a quick response.
00:03:06
Speaker
willingness to move away from terms that we've been committed to working towards for at at least the last decade um why are you still using deib and and how do you feel if you don't mind sharing um with the the
00:03:27
Speaker
I will say the lack of courageous leadership in our own community um for people who are just willing to throw away that the words that have helped define us and and define our communities for the last 10 or so years.
00:03:43
Speaker
Yeah. I appreciate you asking and that this is something you think about in this way. Yeah. yeah i I, but ok gosh, so much I could say. And by the way, i it was part of why I was excited to come talk to you again, because I remember you and I talked about DEI and DEIB last time I was here too. And, um, it's it just interesting to see how things have evolved.
00:04:06
Speaker
You know, for me, i think I'm trying not to do, first of all, any like quick move, snap judgment kind of things.
00:04:17
Speaker
Um, not And not not as a judgment of people who feel that they need to make some quick decisions, of course. But for me, there's a lot of like, let's see, like a lot of times when i worry about things, I try to play out all the different scenarios that could happen as opposed to the worst case scenario.
00:04:36
Speaker
So part of it is like, I don't want to listen just to my anxiety. And the other part, well, there's lots of parts, but another part is It feels like a way that my the power and privilege I have in society can be helpful for for once. like like And there are a lot of ways power privilege can be helpful. But yeah I think in DEI, DEIB settings, a lot of times power and privilege are are brought up and people feel shame about those words.
00:05:05
Speaker
And certainly there's been a lot of harm related to people's power and privilege that happens. But for me, it's like, okay, you know, there's there's maybe less risk to me in being bold and keeping this this title and this mission than someone else. and maybe maybe that's something I can do even if I am scared at different times right now.
00:05:27
Speaker
um And i do think a lot about how some people might not want to drop that language, but feel like they have to because of the lack of power privilege they might have or protection they might feel they have um in their lived experience. So anyway, um i will say that if I were to ever change it, it would be for words that I felt people that matched better in the current times.
00:05:57
Speaker
And that's something that's still on my mind. don't have any plans to drop it or change it. But like if I did, i am open to if at some point the field evolves to, well, maybe some of those words weren't helping our mission anyway because of the way people were hearing them or the way they were stigmatized.
00:06:16
Speaker
And maybe there's a new word or phrase that fits our goals that people can hear better. I'm open to if that ever feels right at some point.
00:06:28
Speaker
But also it would be different than sneaking or hiding if that was the case. Does that make sense? It does. It does. And i I mean, I think you make a really good point. One is ah good clarification because a lot of the people I see...
00:06:45
Speaker
not being courageous right now are those of us, and I will include myself and you in we have power and we have privilege. And it's, it feels to me, we're kind of the first ones that are pulling back.
00:07:01
Speaker
And that in my humble opinion needs to be called to the, to, to the carpet ah because we have built businesses around it. We've built personas and personalities and products that And to just step back from that, and and with that privilege where we don't have to, i think hurts my heart in a way that's harder for me to explain to someone who's outside of this work.
00:07:32
Speaker
The other thing that i I hear you say, and i I want to make sure that I'm clear, that that I do agree that we're always evolving. We should be evolving. And there are some things that we've done as a community that have not been helpful, that have um caused further kind of stigmatization.
00:07:55
Speaker
I think that when we allow opposing groups to weaponize the words that we hold dear, it's harder for me to say, let's just give.
00:08:07
Speaker
but Let's just give on those because that's the goal. The goal with weaponizing DEI or DEIB was to force us to stop using them. That's the goal.
00:08:18
Speaker
And when we do that, we allow for further weaponization against more marginalized communities, less protected communities, people who have...
Personal Stories of Grief and Coping
00:08:31
Speaker
no voice in so many ways. So I think I appreciate you letting me, I guess, kind of cathartically have that conversation with you. And I think probably this whole podcast will be a cathartic conversation for me.
00:08:45
Speaker
um If I remember correctly, last time we spoke, that's kind of how I approached it. You're like, my counselor, Holly. um So let's get into actually what we're supposed to be talking about yeah but Thank you for that. I want to be in spaces where people are talking about this. So thank you. Yes.
00:09:02
Speaker
you um So last time that we were together, we started talking about grief. and you know, in in transparency to to our audience and our listeners, if you don't know me well, um seven years ago, this month, I lost um ah my brother, my oldest brother to to suicide.
00:09:22
Speaker
anne I, for the first time, started thinking about grieving in a different way. ah And, you know, in my in my past, I had lost grandparents and and, you know, older people in my life, which is never easy, but it doesn't come necessarily as a kind of a shock to the system.
00:09:45
Speaker
And I realized that no matter who we lose, at work, kind of what we're expected to do is show up after three days and be our regular selves, to feel fine, to be as productive, to ready to jump back into those meetings and start talking about the widgets we're building or the sales we're making or whatever it is. And that's a really, really big ask.
00:10:15
Speaker
For someone who is, in this case, let's start with grieving the loss of a a person in their lives. So kind of tell me, as a person who who who teaches and facilitates conversations around grief at work.
00:10:32
Speaker
What's some of the guidance that you give to leaders and and coworkers? Because I think that they would be as mutually important to that support network um when someone is grieving at work.
00:10:48
Speaker
Yeah. um i And thank you for sharing some of your personal journey, by the way. I think the more people do that, the less alone it helps other people feel. um And actually, i will just pause because you were ah kind to share that. I'm thinking of anyone listening who's maybe lost someone or...
00:11:09
Speaker
is grieving something hard right now. So I just want to acknowledge both you and anyone who's sort of like absorbing this right now um for anything that might be felt or anything anyone might be missing.
00:11:24
Speaker
um And I guess I would say, If anyone, you know, I'd say I'd say to anyone listening or or reading or however they're accessing the podcast is to take care of yourselves as you need to. And you could always come back to this if you needed to later. So um I'll say that, too.
00:11:41
Speaker
um I would say the biggest thing people could do is to try not to assume things about other people related to grief at work. um And I'll start with something that you've already alluded to is that there are many kinds of grief, right?
00:11:57
Speaker
So, you know, I might have a death in my family that doesn't impact me that much for for whatever reason, right? um And you know maybe coworkers might treat me, you know give me a lot of grace there, but then they don't give me a lot of grace about something that is actually very hard for me that's happening, but isn't recognized by the world as as as big a deal, right?
00:12:22
Speaker
um and There's many other versions of this, right? So, um oh and I'll give an example there. Like ah i had I had a loss of pet that that rocked my world a few years ago.
00:12:36
Speaker
it changed me forever. And, you know, um someone else that that might not impact them the same way, or they might they might not, and you know, someone might not understand that or whatever, right? So it's just an example of there's many things any of us might impact us each differently, that ah we might assume that it's going to impact someone a certain way, but that's, you know, different about lived experience.
00:13:00
Speaker
I'd say another thing is People often project on each other their preferences. And so, or their own discomfort.
00:13:13
Speaker
I don't think our society has taught us well about how to hold hard emotions that other people have. And so sometimes people will give people what they think is respectful space when they're grieving, but it actually may come across as avoidance and isolation.
00:13:31
Speaker
And so that could be another, either it could be an assumption or a projection, a lot of reasons. And i don't mean to sound judgy in that because i know people have good intentions and in and why they do whatever they do with coworkers, right?
00:13:42
Speaker
But um a lot of times people need connection, not space. um And of course, that's a generalization. Anyway, it's so funny because I'm thinking of a broad spectrum of everything I'm answering or or talking about, but um it's so subjective. Actually, I guess that's the answer, isn't it?
00:13:59
Speaker
It's so subjective. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, absolutely. ah You know, as and someone who are pet parents, right, I i can empathize with you in a way that's different than someone who's maybe not a pet parent.
00:14:13
Speaker
Yeah. I lost my my big girl just late last year. So you're hitting me on all the parts today. um and and there was a lot of avoidance about talking about my brother, about Stella, about whatever that is because, I think that we do the same thing.
00:14:34
Speaker
me see if I can make a clear transition here. I think that we do the same thing there's there's a a demographic characteristic or an identity characteristic maybe that we're not comfortable with.
00:14:49
Speaker
Right. We give space because we're not sure how to engage a person who's blind or engage a person who's from a different culture because we haven't had that experience.
Navigating Conversations Around Grief
00:15:01
Speaker
And so we we kind of avoid that interaction and we fail to integrate people into our lives, whether they're going through this process of grieving or because it's something that we are not comfortable with as humans because we haven't figured out how to emotionally manage our those types of interactions. So, I mean, I think there's just so much that you could unpack there.
00:15:28
Speaker
Yeah, that was really well said. And yeah, I mean,
00:15:33
Speaker
it I think there's also just like things, things we were taught are acceptable and things we were taught that aren't acceptable um related to grief. And there's, um I don't know, like there can almost be some like,
00:15:50
Speaker
guilt is the word or what, but like, I'll give one more example. So um about 10 years ago, I had this like year of my life where I lost, I had about four or five deaths in my life.
00:16:03
Speaker
And the one that hit me the hardest was not a blood relative. And this is some workplace stuff, you know, like, in terms of ah probably i I people thought I should have been more distraught about the blood relatives who passed.
00:16:20
Speaker
But as humans, we just have different relationships with everyone. And the person who who I had the hardest time with was like a family member to me. you know um And so, you know of course, also our workplace policy was um you didn't get time off for someone who wasn't a blood relative.
00:16:39
Speaker
ah Luckily, i had ah I had a manager who said, I can tell this person his family to you, so take the time you need, um which does not always happen. um and it definitely changed my relationship with my manager um for the positive that that that they responded. But like, I do think there's something about when people share something that's going on with you, there are certain things as a society, we just judge should be the harder thing that's happening of the things people are saying.
00:17:06
Speaker
um And I wish we could find a way to, to not program people with those kinds of messages because like, life is gonna surprise you. Like, like, you you don't know what's gonna be the hardest yet, you know? Yeah, well, and I think that's, I mean, it's such an interesting point, because
00:17:28
Speaker
How do you ask or or how what's the the appropriate response? I'm not even sure. It's like your your family member who passed away versus your like a family member who passed away. if i'm If I'm a leader, if I'm a coworker, am i supposed to say, Holly,
00:17:46
Speaker
How are you feeling? You know, how can I help? Or am I supposed to um wait for you to feel empowered to tell me? Like, what's what's the cadence there as a coworker or as a leader? and And I will tell you, this is something I've struggled with as a leader, just because when I've been through this with people who, you know, work for me or work with me,
00:18:11
Speaker
I have this inclination to always ask, like, how are you? What's happening? You know, those kinds of things. and I'll do it a few times. And I know there's still those underlying, hey, i'm I'm upset, but am I supposed to make it fresh again? Am I supposed to keep continually, like, taking the scab off? You know what I'm saying? It's like, tell me or give give our listeners some guidance about Not assuming.
00:18:39
Speaker
I think that's the perfect first one, right? If we can take anything away from the conversation we have before is assumptions do exactly what assumptions do. And then what's the next step after we stop making those assumptions?
00:18:52
Speaker
Yeah, so of course it'll be specific to the relationship and also we're gonna mess up. So let me also just say that before I give any like ideal kind of responses is like being a human is messy and trying to be in relationship with other humans is messy and we're gonna learn from when we don't do it right too. So I'll just say that.
00:19:15
Speaker
um For me, I'm going to use a word that doesn't get brought into conversations like this a lot, but I think is totally related is the word consent. um I think a lot about checking what's okay.
00:19:32
Speaker
Would it be okay if I ask you about your brother, Julie? Like, would you like to talk about... your fur baby that you miss, you know, like, or not, you know what i mean? Like, before we get into whatever we we needed to talk about today, how are you doing? Is there any way I can support you?
00:19:52
Speaker
Would it be helpful to share a memory? Would it be helpful if I share about a loss I've been through? All of these things are just instead of launching in would it be helpful? Would you like a hug?
00:20:06
Speaker
Maybe not. You know what i mean? Like, um right? Like it it's it's to me. And i even think about this in many ways. I think about this with like unsolicited advice. I think about this and so many is, is I may have a thing coming up in me that I think I should do.
00:20:22
Speaker
can, maybe it might be fine to do it, but let me check before I do it. You know what i mean? Like, let me offer it as opposed to launch into the thing. I think like, Would it be helpful to hear a platitude? know what mean? Obviously that one's probably not going to happen because people don't know they're doing that. But like, you know what I mean? Like it's, it's checking.
00:20:42
Speaker
Yeah. No, I think that is a beautiful point and something I have not thought of before. It's really just, I have tried to emotionally feel out how I'm supposed to react.
00:20:56
Speaker
And so much of that is my own attitude. grief, my own experiences, my own expectations that I'm not really emotionally checking in with the person who's actually grieving at that moment at all, because there were back to those assumptions. And I assume, and then I assume how I'm supposed to act.
00:21:18
Speaker
And so I think consent is a is ah really powerful word there. I think that could go into all of our kind of standard practices on more than just grief, but especially on grief in this conversation. um Thank you for that. I'm just processing because it that that really sits with me.
00:21:37
Speaker
I'm so glad. Can I add one more thing? ah Please. um You mentioned about sort of like reopening a wound. um I think that is a very common fear people have about bringing something up is I don't want to upset this person.
00:21:52
Speaker
um It's part of why I think the layering on of the consent, you know, people will tell you I can't talk about that today. you know what i mean? Like they they know what they can't
Understanding and Managing Grief in the Workplace
00:22:00
Speaker
do. um But I've found the more the more people I've connected with, the more grievers I've talked to.
00:22:09
Speaker
is and of course this is you know um a generalization and there could be exceptions to this is more people wish people would ask rather than not and many people are like i didn't forget that this hard thing happened like no one's making me remember like it's never not in my mind right now and especially in like those like but fresher times though as we know grief is a journey and can be hard much later for many reasons too. But um it's this idea of like, you know, I think even in some workplaces, people might worry about um like policies around any of that. And like, it like if it's okay to bring something up that's hard, because it might, you know, it might be traumatic for the person. But I really do think that in the case of grief, more times than not,
00:23:00
Speaker
it's you're seeing someone is what you're doing as a full person. And rather than like, they didn't forget, you know what I mean? Like you're, you're, it's not, it often isn't a reopening a wound. It's, it's often more, I'll use this analogy of acknowledging there's a wound that it's some people, it seems like many people are ignoring that there's a wound.
00:23:22
Speaker
So, yeah. think that's a great point. And, and in your, in your conversations with, know, with leaders, are you giving any guidance on how grief policies should be implemented or something that you said earlier that really stood out to me, some guidance around um manager discretion?
00:23:49
Speaker
i think that's a powerful tool that is often really, really overlooked When we're thinking about anything ah hr policy, people policy related, and something that I've struggled with, with former employers on like, I know this person needs this.
00:24:07
Speaker
I need to be able to approve this time off because i know this relationship didn't fit in your box, but it was important. Talk to me a little bit about that. I don't go too far into policies mostly because I get too mad.
00:24:23
Speaker
yeah I'm like the kind of person who's like, burn it all down, you know, um or ah or just like do it different. Like what? Like, you know what I mean? um But I will shout out, there's a company I've been, that's been on my radar that's doing really cool work in that space. They're called Bereave, B-E-R-E-A-V-E.
00:24:42
Speaker
um b e r e a v e They're great LinkedIn follow. um They're doing some really cool stuff that they're literally offering support to companies around adjusting policies with grief.
00:24:53
Speaker
um I'm actually gonna collab and do a training for them actually in the spring. So um they're they're just cool. So there are people who are getting into that like lens of it. um I would say though, if i if I could ever counsel someone who has influence over policies, I would,
00:25:13
Speaker
I would say like, how could you build in manager discretion just to policies in general. You know what i mean? There's just like, i mean, and really there's so many DEIB topics we could get into of like, you know, like what makes a disruptive employee or like what, like, you know, why is someone having trouble on the job and what things on the job may be led up to that and what kind of interventions are there before we're getting into disciplinary action? I know this is a whole other topic, but that's my point is there's so many things that like,
00:25:44
Speaker
are we doing audits periodically of our policies? Are we using a DEIB lens? Are we bringing in, we talked about this before, like our ERGs and BRGs for how we're looking at these things. um The other thing I'll add is just how do we how do we expand our definitions and understanding over time?
00:26:04
Speaker
Because That's just how humans work is we know better, we do better over time. And how are we then pausing with our policies on that? Like, you know, grief, grief. I mean, we've we've acknowledged we could spend so much time talking about grief. We could probably go into any subtopics, but like, it's also about much more than physical loss, right?
00:26:26
Speaker
i don't i don't know how you build all that into your policies, but I do hope that people making policies change. work to understand that is, you know, after layoffs, there can be intense grief because there wasn't necessarily the closure that there could have been. And it wasn't how people would have chosen how this would have gone. Right. There's, there's like so many kinds of grief.
00:26:47
Speaker
I mean, then the pandemic, there was so much grief in it. Also after the pandemic, there was a lot of grief. um Many world events can be things that are, and so This is why I don't delve into policies is I just want to like, I get into all of like the emotion of it all.
00:27:03
Speaker
um And you need some other things brought into the mix to really shift policies well that that may not be my skill set. But I hope that we're continuing to learn and expand how we're thinking about things, including grief. And I hope that that could trickle into things like policies and procedures.
00:27:20
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. So you've you've opened up a can of worms for me. many Many cans of many worms. We don't have that kind of time. um But you you said kind of where I wanted to go next is that something I've learned through my journey over the past, I don't know, years of being an adult is that we grieve things that are not necessarily loss of physical
Broader Perspectives on Grief
00:27:50
Speaker
entities.
00:27:50
Speaker
Our families, our friends, our um of pets, are you know the the people that we entities that we love. um And I think oh a lot of us right now, especially in underrepresented,
00:28:08
Speaker
i very feeling attacked right now, demographic groups, and those of us that thought there was a different future ahead of us, I'll speak for me as an American, are grieving right now.
00:28:24
Speaker
and That's opening up not just grief, that I think a lot of times is completely unacknowledged grief by the person who's going through it because they don't understand that this is a grieving process.
00:28:42
Speaker
Certainly not by our leaders or or or coworkers acknowledged grief, but also
00:28:53
Speaker
we don't have the capacity As humans to figure out how to manage. A future that's different than we expected. And. How can we as people who.
00:29:08
Speaker
are coming from a place of power. Of privilege. Likely doing our own set of grieving. Here. Acknowledge our own grief.
00:29:19
Speaker
But then also acknowledge and support communities who are going through. pretty scary and pretty tough times right now and help them to, and i hate this. I don't, I am kind of going off on a, on a tangent, but I like going through, how do you still help them show up at work and get the things done that they need to, because they still, we, we all still have families we have to take care of. We also bills we have to pay, but we're going through this collective trauma.
00:29:50
Speaker
I think right now, and And first, i guess we need to acknowledge that it is grief and that it is something that we're mourning as a community.
00:30:01
Speaker
um And then how do we support each other to get through it to the other side of it? I don't even know. Like, clearly this conversation, I'm completely using you to kind of voice my thoughts out loud, where I've really struggled with my own grieving process and how to be supportive um at this point. What's kind of guidance around non-entity grief, I guess? Let me just go back to the basics.
00:30:27
Speaker
No, ah yeah I'm tracking with everything you just said. um
00:30:32
Speaker
You bring up an important perspective that in the realm of grief, and there's often this category of the future we thought we were going to have.
00:30:43
Speaker
And I'll, I'll come back to where you're, you were headed, but I'll also just as an aside, share that um this is another DEIB intersection. Of course, everything, everything is um that people who have experienced a lot of discrimination in their life,
00:31:01
Speaker
have have versions of that too, right? Of, you know, what life might they have gotten to have if, you know, there hadn't been microaggressions layered upon them all the time, right? Or, you know, anyway, lots lots of lots of examples I could give. you know,
00:31:19
Speaker
and
00:31:22
Speaker
yeah I mean, even if in our lives, like certain things, we lose certain things we expected would be in our life or parts of our identity that we thought were going to be our identity, we might lose, you know?
00:31:33
Speaker
So um i bet a lot, I bet a lot of people will relate to the conversation we're having, regardless of if they're thinking about like, like the,
00:31:45
Speaker
i don't want to say politics. I want to say just like world events, you know what i mean? But there's, there's, I think many versions of this even too, um, that, that, that will be related, but, you know, to, to me, I would say the, how can actually then come from listening to people who have had less power and privilege.
00:32:12
Speaker
and i And I'm going to say something that's not directed at you, Julie, but i think I think you could handle it from what I know about you. But I mean this more just from a group of people and myself are included. I think for some of us, and also I should acknowledge I'm going to be talking a little bit about America, and I realize that there's many things happening in the world beyond our country.
00:32:31
Speaker
um And also people in other parts the world may have things that this resonates still for them too. is... um is Some of us are only now feeling something that people have felt for a while, right? like And so then that means that we're not the first people to navigate these hard emotions, right?
00:32:52
Speaker
We're not the first people to have to, and you knowt you know this, i'm I'm not thinking you don't, right? But like, how do we learn from people that are like, yeah, let's look back at our history books and look at the collective grief that we've had to overcome that was just as big and hard you know what i mean? Or made me lose faith in my company, country, country or company. You know i mean? Like, like, like, hot I think there's a lot more of,
00:33:19
Speaker
I don't want to say not reinventing the wheel because that's such a cliche, but like, how do we tap into the wisdom of, and how do we learn from people who have been, saw some of this coming way before some of us did,
Self-Care and Emotional Regulation in Grief
00:33:31
Speaker
right? Like, um I think that's where the coming together of different groups of people is even more important.
00:33:37
Speaker
And then I'll say the umbrella thing on top of all of this is, I believe, learning to regulate our own nervous systems. Because no one can do the best care for themselves until they've done, like, like in terms of decisions, et cetera, and and the when actions and how we show up anywhere work or wherever is if we're not able to get out of fight or flight um and actually,
00:34:07
Speaker
so many sub-conversations, Julie. there you know there's That's even expanded in definition. There's actually more than just fight or flight now um that we could delve into, but but for for for ease of the conversation, we'll use that. um And just the idea of, you know, we could learn a lot from each other about like, you know, what regulates my nervous system might be not not what regulates yours, but in in talking more about that together, we might get more ideas, right?
00:34:34
Speaker
Like for me, it might be breathing activities. For you, it might be um getting outside, right? like ah But a lot of these things get us back to okay, now what do I need? Now what is the right next decision?
00:34:50
Speaker
How do I show up authentically and still take care of all the things I need to? But I think i think the problem with, you know you know I'm choosing words intentionally.
00:35:03
Speaker
think the problem with how a lot of the environments that you and I are in right now is I think they're designed to keep us scared and anxious so that we can't even tap into our own inner wisdom, let alone connect with other people on it. So it's I think we got to make the time, even if it's a few moments, to do that more often.
00:35:23
Speaker
i know I've just said a lot of things. i don't even know if i totally answered your question. Yeah. You gave me lots of things to say back. How about that? yeah i Well, first, I want to thank you for acknowledging and kind of centering what I was trying to to get out. and you're absolutely right, is that as as a white woman with hidden disabilities, like my current grief has been a decade long.
00:35:50
Speaker
However, it is short in the timeframe of actual grief other communities, right, who've lived with a future that they deserve to have and has been withheld from them for a long time. So we need to acknowledge that
00:36:11
Speaker
We can learn from each other and that we are stronger together and that I'm not dismissing my own grief by acknowledging someone else has a very different and, and in a lot of ways, prolonged or more significant experience.
00:36:26
Speaker
And I think sometimes, um, when we come from a place of privilege and we hear things like the conversation you and I are having right now, and I'm so glad we're having it on camera, is it's easy for one of us to get defensive and go, okay, well, i don't fit in that group, so what i feel doesn't matter. no that's absolutely not what what either of us are saying right now, is that you get to have your own process.
00:36:53
Speaker
But there's hundreds of years of history in in this country alone that could be mourned, that is being mourned.
00:37:05
Speaker
And we can now have empathy in a way that we couldn't before. It's different, it's not the same, but we can have empathy with groups who have been through a similar grieving process.
00:37:21
Speaker
And we can, i don't like the word used, but we can learn from what those groups and those individuals have done to collectively move through their grief.
00:37:36
Speaker
And I think that's just really important to acknowledge. And I thank you for doing that. I think the other thing is trying to figure out in a way, again, that doesn't sound cliche. You talked about things that that we have to do for our own mental safety, right? For our own mental health. And I think that sometimes, I'm going to say something out loud, we may have to cut this out later.
00:38:04
Speaker
But I think sometimes, and again, I'm just going to come from my own privilege, is that especially in chaotic political or societal environments, we feel guilty.
00:38:22
Speaker
about taking care of ourselves. We feel guilty for saying, you know what, you can't watch eight hours of the news today. You have to go get on the damn treadmill, which is the thing that's going to make you feel better because the only way that you can keep in the fight is to protect your space.
00:38:42
Speaker
And I think if I'm kind of understanding the collective of what we've said together over the last 10 minutes is that we aren't in this alone. We shouldn't assume that our grief is the same as others, but we can work together to find out how to support each other.
00:39:02
Speaker
But to stay in the fight, to keep the energy that we need, we also have to do what I think a a lot of, again, I'll speak generalizations for Americans, think of as almost a weakness of saying, i have to protect myself.
00:39:18
Speaker
And these are the things that I'm choosing to do to protect myself so that I can continue on in the work that I'm doing. Yeah. um Number one, I'm glad you didn't hear me as trying to minimize anyone's suffering because you're absolutely right that all suffering is valid regardless of timeline or...
00:39:40
Speaker
you know, so I really was saying, how can we find community and solutions in that awareness that we're not the first to go through something, right? um so I'm so glad that you heard that and clarified it more. um Yeah,
00:39:55
Speaker
it
00:39:57
Speaker
i think what I think in the taking care of ourselves, we totally were taught it was selfish. I think also too, as humans, it can be kind of hard to to to sort out what am I avoiding versus when am I taking care of myself?
00:40:12
Speaker
And to me, it's all about intentionality is is my filter, is, you know, did I just... spend hours watching thing watching TV series is and not even realize the time was passing and not even choose that intentionally?
00:40:30
Speaker
Or did I say, i got to turn off my brain. I'm going to i'm going to watch a bunch TV. that To me, that's the difference, right? It's like, you know am i do I want to be taking politically active actions and doing phone calls right now, or do I not have capacity for that?
00:40:47
Speaker
To ask yourself that question is not then avoiding because you're literally thinking, what is the best way I can use my energy for myself right now so that I have more of it later? um And so if anyone ever is struggling with what's avoidance versus what, I think it's about just that intentionality and to forgive ourselves when sometimes the avoidance just happens.
00:41:06
Speaker
um And then, oh, there was one other thing I wanted to say. um reading resume to Definitely checking in with each other. I guess it'll it'll come to me. And let me pause there. ah Was there a question I didn't answer that you asked?
00:41:23
Speaker
No, I think that makes sense. And so, you know, I mean, we're really kind of coming full circle. Oh, remember. I'm sorry. I'm cutting you off. Go ahead. I want just quickly reference to you said the empathy thing um and how things look different, is I'm not a huge subscriber to the five stages of grief.
00:41:43
Speaker
because I don't know that they get explained well or understood well. They're not linear.
Anger as a Component of Grief
00:41:49
Speaker
You might skip over some, you might go back to some, but and and if anyone is not familiar, denial and denial, anger, depression, bargaining, acceptance. And by the way, a new one has been added in recent years of meeting making, some of David Kessler's work, I believe.
00:42:02
Speaker
ah But what I'll just add as an aside, as with some of the things we've been talking about is I think people forget that anger is part of grief. And an example of that is some of the protests that happened after the murder of George Floyd, like people, I saw a lot of people in society saying like, that's not helpful or whatever. And listen, who knows what, if anything is helpful that anyone is doing ever, by the way, right? Like, is it helpful for me to watch TV? I don't know, it right? But like, um the idea of
00:42:38
Speaker
realizing that there's such a spectrum of emotion any of us might be having and that In the workplace, for example, might an angry employee be, might it be grief related? It's ah just some some things tying in of when we, the more we can channel empathy and the more that we can try to come together and ask each other what we need, what's going on, what's working for us, like how we're handling things, just the more options that become available to you all of us and that we understand each other a little bit more too. So I i wanted to throw that in the mix.
00:43:12
Speaker
Yeah, no, I mean, I think the anger, and that's it that's going to sit well with, it it sits with me, and I think it's going to sit with our our listeners, because I think we also try to beat ourselves up and go, like, why are you so mad? Why, you know, like, this exact thing didn't happen to you. It's not something you should be mad about, but I am mad.
00:43:40
Speaker
And I am angry. And when I try to to even dismiss my own anger instead of acknowledging it, I don't deal with it. It doesn't go away.
00:43:50
Speaker
it just grows. And i think that's important. you know We go through in whatever process that we're in, you know in terms of grieving for whatever reasons right now,
00:44:04
Speaker
Anger is a part of that. And i I'm so glad that you said that because I often forget that when I feel angry, it's okay to feel angry. And when i And recognize why i'm angry. It's not because my husband forgot to buy bread at the grocery store. It's because of these actual underlying things that are happening in my nervous system that I don't know how to calm down, that I don't know how to stop. And that's reflecting in all of my relationships right now.
00:44:39
Speaker
um So I think that's such a beautiful point. And I think it's a ah kind of a good note to wrap up on. um again this has been i love talking to you i feel like i can get on this camera with you and feel like no one else is here no one else is ever gonna listen i'm just gonna say holly this is how i feel and you're gonna help me understand um better how i feel and i hope our listeners take this away too so two things um
00:45:11
Speaker
One is if you were going to just leave one tip out of this amazing conversation that we've had, what one tip that you would give to our listeners um to support someone who's grieving around them?
00:45:29
Speaker
I'm going to go an unexpected one. going to say, build out your own toolbox of support because Usually when people are not showing up for others in grief, it's because they the the we we ourselves can't handle what's coming up for ourselves, really feeling uncomfortable about their grief, et cetera. And it relates then to everything we've talked about is, you know, the more we can build out what what things could I try that might help myself right now feel and process my emotions so they don't get stuck in me.
00:46:07
Speaker
will help us support people who are agg grieving and and help in many other ways too. Amazing. So last thing, if someone wants to find you, bring you in to help do your their own grief at work facilitation or small group facilitation, how do they find you?
00:46:24
Speaker
ah Best ways are either my website or LinkedIn. So regimechange.co is my website. And then LinkedIn is... just kind of like my name at the end, Holly O'Hearn. We could probably throw it somewhere if we needed to relate to this. um But yeah, and I do, i will say, i ah it's not all grief, but I will say even when it's not, I like that I bring the grief mindset and awareness to whatever. I mean, like even if I'm doing like a presentation skills workshop,
00:46:55
Speaker
I'm still aware that there could be people who are grieving in this space and thinking about that. and So it informs a lot of what I do, whether or not that's the training topic. But I sure do love when people want to talk about grief. So yeah, those are the best ways to connect.
00:47:09
Speaker
Amazing, amazing. Guys, again, this will probably be my favorite of 2025. Someone's going to have to try to beat Holly, future guests. I see you. Got to bring it back.
00:47:21
Speaker
they They'll be great. yeah They'll be great, but this going to be hard to beat. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for your time, for your wisdom, for your energy. Take care of yourself. And I look forward to connecting more.
00:47:33
Speaker
Guys, have a wonderful day. Thanks for listening. Share this podcast. Connect with Holly. Do what you need to do to take care of yourself. do And reach out to us. if If you're going through this process and this conversation resonated with you, whether it's physical grief or or or something else, let us know.
00:47:53
Speaker
Until then, we'll see you next time on Changing Minds, Changing Lives.