Transcript
Speaker: Welcome back to the Changing Minds and Changing Lives podcast. I'm your host, Julie Sowash, co-founder and strategic advisor at Disability Solutions and CEO at the Catch-22 Group.
Speaker: And I'm, as always, so happy to be back with you all today. um Before we bring in our guests, I wanted to share a couple of pieces of disability-related news that kind of caught my eye this week.
Speaker: ah The first from Disability Scoop, which if you guys are not subscribers, I think they do a phenomenal job on kind of keeping us up to date on the latest in ah news impacting the community.
Speaker: The piece is titled IDD Providers Increasingly Swallowed Up by Private Equity. And it was published just earlier this month. um And the author is Michelle Diamant.
Speaker: um You know, over the past decade, I learned in this article, private equity firms are gobbling up private disability services providers and making billions, billions with a B, off of services provided to people with the most significant disabilities. so Oftentimes living and community in the community and funded through both Medicaid and home and community-based services.
Speaker: So what about this caught my eye other than the billions? The question is, is what does PE e want with a DSP organization? We all know these are nonprofits that are no one's getting rich off, um serving people with disabilities and are often reliant on state and government payments to fund those services.
Speaker: And PE, if you don't know, is often just looking for fast short term capital returns on their investments. What I learned is that these PE firms, which are now employing over 100,000 people around the United States, and again, have made billions through just cutting services.
Speaker: And here's the kicker. The big profit is because they are saddling the nonprofit service providers with the PE's own debt, which is a completely legal And I would say highly unethical thing to do.
Speaker: And so as we're kind of coming into the spring and the budget season um and potentially cutting Medicaid payments and looking at potential re-institutionalization,
Speaker: of not an insignificant percentage of our population, that the lack of oversight on these PE deals is likely to inflict more suffering on our most vulnerable.
Speaker: And I just want you guys to be aware of this because this is something that normally an employment space would kind of completely slip by me. um But a lot of these people are also receiving employment services.
Speaker: from the DSP providers. And it's going to impact people getting to work, living in our communities, and having the services that they need on a daily basis. With that, I also want to share some good news.
Speaker: um Apple announced this week that they're adding additional accessibility features in their newest iOS release. um including improved Braille reading, ah better voice replication, and a feature I think is really cool called nutrition labels.
Speaker: And not actual nutrition labels, but a feature within the App Store that tells users which Excel's accessibility features work in a particular app. So really another great reason to make sure that the apps you're creating are accessible.
Speaker: So there's always a lot happening in our world. And I'm super curious, what is on you guys' is mind this week or any time? Let us know so we can make sure our listeners and our viewers know what's happening in the world around you in disability and inclusion.
Speaker: But with that, I do want to welcome our guest, ah who I'm very excited to be able to have a conversation with, David Rice, who is also joined by his interpreter, Brianna.
Speaker: ah David is a disability advocate, a disability employment architect. I love that title. um Building accessible workplaces, executive league league leader.
Speaker: and public speaker, also a a dad, a dog dad. Ooh, I'm going to get those words out. A dog dad. We all love our puppies around here. um David has an impressive history of advocacy and policy work for our community, including at the National Institutions of Health and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.
Speaker: He is currently working on employment initiatives at the CEO Commission for Disability Employment. David, welcome to Changing Minds, Changing Lives. Hi, everybody. Hi, thank you. I'm so so happy to be here today.
Speaker: So tell us a little bit about you.
Speaker: Yeah, so um a little bit about me. is um My name is ah David Rice, and um i am um deaf, profoundly deaf. I've been deaf since I was age of four, and growing up in an environment where I the only deaf person in my entire town, let alone my own my only school.
Speaker: There was a lot of ah different challenges that I had growing up, but um with some really great parents that I'm supporting by my side, I did fairly well in school. I played football, played baseball, played basketball.
Speaker: I was fully integrated into you know the entire um school community. name And it was during my time, and um as I think it was my junior year as a football, one of the football players, and we invited, my coach invited one of the, they were called Camp Rachel.
Speaker: was one of the camps that came in to do sort of like a an Olympic type of event for those with intellectual disabilities. And um it was my first exposure really to disability outside my own lens. And i fell and absolutely in love with it just because I had a sort of connection there.
Speaker: And I continued doing that all the way through until I graduated and went into Catholic University of America. And at Catholic, you know, I wanted to keep my disability advocacy going. i kind of found my passion of who I was.
Speaker: And we created one of the first dorm rooms where every everyone in a dorm learned American Sign Language. It was hearing people, ah there there were deaf individuals there, and that entire floor, of the dorm room, was to learn about American Sign Language and to be able to speak in American Sign Language during the mya so my freshman and sophomore year. And and i it was during that time I got involved with doing some sports, and Gullied Ed University has a
Speaker: um have a baseball team where I college, a high school baseball team called Model Secondary School for the Deaf. And I did that for about eight years.
Speaker: In my work, in my workplace, I got into the National Institute of Health mainly to because i ah I felt like being in the cutting-edge research and science was something that I would absolutely love to do. And I first jumped in.
Speaker: was an executive assistant to the executive officer. loved the work at the National Institute of Health. And as I was developing in my career, I started to see, hey, There's a disability program manager at NIH that oversees all the disability employment programs at NIH.
Speaker: And I'm thinking over there, like, that's the job I want in five, six years. And so I started doing some work in nonprofit, deaf in government, becoming the president of deaf in government, um continuing to work on my disability advocacy on the side to kind of beef up my resume that when that position opened, that I would be well-suited and positioned for it.
Speaker: And when I got the job, um I was ecstatic because it was something that allowed me to look at disability employment across NIH, but also for health disparities for um for individuals with dis disabilities, something that I'm deeply committed and passionate about.
Speaker: And so when I started doing all of this um disability employment, I started doing some consulting work with ah the CEO Commission on Disability Employment, where we go into organizations that are committed to disability employment and we sort of look at ah where they are, do an assessment, get some some improvements, some best practices.
Speaker: We work with our servicing partners to be able to provide them some resources that they may need. And so disability employment is something that is a calling. it it's It's a legacy that I want to leave. It's something that I think we all deserve is meaningful employment.
Speaker: And I really want to give that back to the disability community here in the United States. Yeah, I mean, that that's amazing. Just top to bottom, such a fantastic story.
Speaker: um Always thankful for good parents, um no matter you have a disability or not, makes so much difference. And you and I had a chance to chat before we recorded, and and we both kind of share that passion for helping
Speaker: providers and organizations better understand what it's like to be disabled in the healthcare care system. um And I think there are a lot of assumptions that everyone with a disability is either sick or ill, um or even that medical facilities are accessible and healthcare providers are trained to support patients with disabilities, which, um you you know, we found in the last few years to be Definitely very untrue.
Speaker: um Can you tell our listeners some of the most kind of common barriers to health care access for our community? yeah Yeah, I think um on on a generic term, the biggest barrier is you know the lack of understanding. In fact, um when we were going when we were doing some research on um trying to get the National Institute of Health to accept disability as a health disparity population, where we can put funding and research in to try to remove those barriers,
Speaker: We found that a lot of the medical universities and colleges out there may only provide like eight. couple hour seminars on disability related to social construct of disability identity.
Speaker: um Because a lot of our medical you to ah medical school, they focus on so much about the cure and so much about fixing the person. And I feel in some ways they get away from the human the you human aspect of um individual coming in.
Speaker: to they have an ailment, a broken bone, they get sick. um God forbid they have diagnosed with cancer on top of their disability they already have.
Speaker: We need to bring that humility in there. And what I mean by humility, I mean when someone is deaf and hard of hearing, you don't have you don't make them have to constantly fight for an interpreter.
Speaker: You know that you have a deaf patient. You need, you already have it on your chart that they need an interpreter. Make sure that you're providing it to them. And when I look at, look back at healthcare, and I talked briefly about the social um aspect of ah the versus the medical model, if we can mix um ah Because the medical model, not for disability, but fit but we do want our physicians and our medical provider to be able to fix or cure whatever that is outside of their identity of who they are.
Speaker: i am a I'll give an example. I'm a deaf man. I do not want cures for my hearing. I am happy with who I am. I know mainly it shapes me for who I am.
Speaker: So I don't want to go to a doctor's office and they're asking me questions about why I don't have a curfew implant. I'm there for... I had the flu. I'm there for something from other reasons I'm looking for.
Speaker: What I'm trying to get is I'm trying to get better from the flu. I don't really need to be discussed a lot about my hearing loss and why I don't have a cochlear implant.
Speaker: And that's really about that identity portion of it. Realizing that not everyone that has a disability wants to be cured from the disability. so So those are some high level barriers.
Speaker: um there There are a lot of barriers, particularly if you think about the blind and low vision ah population out there. Walking in a hospital is already very difficult for someone who's sighted.
Speaker: And how will you expect the people that have blind and low vision to go into an ER r if you don't have the accessibility tools out there and be able to um um ensure that they get the care that they need?
Speaker: And the same goes with deaf and hard of hearing. When you walk and into the, ah you know, the the check-in area, you know, what's the first thing they do? oh, we we don't know, let's write on a piece of paper.
Speaker: Why can't we use other technologies that are out there that can provide them with not only top care health care, but tough top notch um um customer service for um people with disabilities?
Speaker: Yeah, I think it's such a good point because it is customer service. You have your choice of which facility to go to in some cases. Some cases you're very limited.
Speaker: um And I think if I could summarize and you tell me if if I've got this right, is really the biggest barrier is lack of proactive, thoughtful engagement for patients with disabilities.
Speaker: and often focusing on the wrong thing at time of treatment.
Speaker: yeah Yes, exactly. you you hit the nail on the head. um I know I'm a little long-winded person, but that's basically a great summarization of what what I was um trying to convey. And if you think about it, though,
Speaker: Medical providers, they really do, for the majority of them, they do care for their patients. We used to call it the National Institute. We we still do, the National Institute of Hope.
Speaker: You go in there and you talk to the nurses, you talk to the doctors in there, they really care for their patients. But it's the lack of education around how to interact with someone with a disability is something that I think medical schools can provide a little bit more context than just a two-hour seminar on how to work with patients with disabilities, with different disabilities.
Speaker: and and And in fact, I'll bring up ah a real quick story at the National Institute of Health. We used to have on our mission statement in the National Institute of Health where it said to reduce burden, I mean, reduce the burden of disability than illnesses.
Speaker: And i talked to a lot of coworkers of mine. We we had ah an employee resource group called ah Disability, and and and no, I mean, DEP at NIH. And we were just talking like,
Speaker: I don't feel like my disability is a burden. So why should that be a mission of the best biomedical research center in the world to reduce the burden of disabilities?
Speaker: And so after talking to ah the and NIH director at that time, Dr. Collins, and then talking to the EEOC director at the time, ah Deborah Chu, we all agreed that we could remove the word burden because We have to think about people with disabilities don't really con consider them a burden to anyone.
Speaker: We're people that pay our taxes. We're people that want to work. We are people that um go to the gym. we We go golfing. We we go on vacation. We do everything just like anyone else does, except for that we have a disability that prevents us to fully touch participate in it like everyone else can.
Speaker: Yeah, no, I love that story. That is such a great way that you can see how impactful a single word can be on how...
Speaker: the the greatest greatest biomedical agency in the world approaches ah quarter of of at least the US population and more than a billion people worldwide.
Speaker: And you mentioned um the EEOC. c So I know you had a stint at the EEOC. c Kind of talk to us about what you did there and kind of what your thoughts are on the current state of the EEOC.
Speaker: Yeah, so first, just want to make a little quick quick quick correction. So at the National Institute of Health, each agency has an EEO office. And so um that wasn't where I was housed. I was within the EEO office, which took took director from the EEOC. So we worked under all the EEOC laws and regulations and stuff. So I'm fully aware of EEO laws and requirement regulations and stuff like that.
Speaker: um So I'd be happy to i answer the question. Can you repeat that question real quick? Yeah. you know where What are your thoughts on kind of the current state of the EEOC with the changes in executive orders and enforcement um under the new administration?
Speaker: Yeah, it's not, it has not been easy. And they're obviously, they're not at Quotum right now. They don't have um ah enough commissions to make decisions.
Speaker: unfortunately Unfortunately, we still have some of the... um the judges and administrative judges that are there that are still carrying out some get cases and stuff but as far as appeals go that usually goes up to the commission level where they vote on the field but that's not according right now so we're unable to do that that's on a broad scale not just for disability employment but for all discriminations across across our walls here at um um the United States so I think the biggest challenge we're having right now is that
Speaker: The law is law. And i know that some people think that things are not being followed in the law. But I i fully believe that our justice system, at the United States, I mean, there there's so much research on the United States.
Speaker: does have a long justice system. um It takes from the start of a justice to when you actually justice happens. It tends to be very lengthy. And I'm still hanging on that, hanging on my hat on that, that, you know, eventually it might be three, four or five years from now, eventually things that um may have been, you know, against the law or something that may have been,
Speaker: decided that wasn't quite the precedent of what happened before will get resolved and in a later in a later time. But the biggest biggest challenge we're having right now is the language around DEI, the misconception of diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Speaker: The sole fact that there is this idea that people getting are getting jobs because they are a particular race or because they're a particular gender.
Speaker: It has always and still continues to be against the law to give someone a job basis of race, sex, gender, natural origin, color, and age. was just thinking about it. And age.
Speaker: And when we sit there and think about it, when we remove DEI in there, just sort of taking away all the work that we've made and the progress that we made through there.
Speaker: And where the progress was being made was in our targeted outreach. I mean, we know that there qualified individuals in the United States. We just need them to know that, hey, we we have job openings and going to career fairs, going to um different universities across the cost United States and letting them know about, in my particular case, the National Institute of Health.
Speaker: That has been the biggest challenge because that right there, that effort was always um under the umbrella of DEI. and um But that is the biggest challenge we're having right now with an EEO office.
Speaker: Yeah, I think that's a ah perfect summary. So as we're thinking about, you know, kind of what we're seeing at Disability Solutions is we've seen a lot less pullback in talent acquisition spending um in our community, which is really, really positive.
Speaker: We're seeing a lot of companies go quiet, so to speak. um If you were working with a CEO and or a company and they're really committed to continuing to do the work, even in this current environment, um you know, what would kind of be your top suggestions to support both, I would say, on the job seeker side, so on the applicant side?
Speaker: And then once you have employees with disabilities in the door and addressing some of their concerns over kind of the current state of affairs? Yeah, I think the the number one thing ah the CEOs can do is communicate to their staff that they are still committed to this.
Speaker: um I know that um there is this sense of probably thinly like publicly saying that I'm committed to that. Well, I think that you can do that. That does help.
Speaker: But I think what helps more is talking directly to your employee, saying that we are still committed and and that and we will continue to do the look for disability employment, make it more accessible.
Speaker: Because one when when we look at data, you know, NIH you know, big in data. Like we have scientists everywhere. they if if I make a suggestion, they say, show me the data, David.
Speaker: And there is data, actual data out there that shows that that organizations that really commit in a disability employment see greater revenue, greater shareholder profits, and then they also see greater satisfaction from their staff, their entire staff, not just individuals with disabilities. the reason for that is because you're allowing people to bring their whole self into the workplace.
Speaker: That means that if I have an intellectual disability, if I have a disability, I can bring my whole self and can bring ideas that I may have learned through navigate and navigating my life as a disabled individual and I'd be able to apply it the workplace.
Speaker: A great example of this, and I know we talked about this earlier in our earlier discussion, was, you know, the electric toothbrush. We think about the electric toothbrush and we take it for granted that, oh, it's just a little motor and benefits, say, that we must use.
Speaker: But that was invented for people that had mobility issues. And so when we think about it, now everyone pretty much uses an electric toothbrush and it's universally made for everyone. So we as a society have benefited for something that was there to help individuals with mobility issues.
Speaker: That is the kind of mindset that these CEOs need to be thinking of. They need to be thinking of, all right, so where are some of the barriers? Because when we talk about 30% of individuals in the world, 30% of people have a disability, some full shape or form of some disability. Those are your customers too.
Speaker: So can you just imagine if you didn't you were not accessible and you basically said, no, we're not going to do accessible, you're losing out on 30% of your customer base.
Speaker: And so that is critical to look out at that. And then on top of that, if you're having a competitor, that, you know, if we're saying a financial institute, let's say two banks together.
Speaker: on On top of that, you're providing more accessible tools for people to go into that banking. Guess where individuals with disabilities going to go? They're going to go to a place that has the more accessible banking than the one that does not.
Speaker: So yeahre ah you're basically expanding your customers. You're basically ensuring that you keep your customers. You're making sure that your employees feel safe and feel safe.
Speaker: feel as if they are contributing to your mission at your organization. Yeah, I think that's such a ah great point. One, both the innovation of people with disabilities, but also the brand commitment.
Speaker: And so I would be really curious to your perspective as we've seen sort of this I hate the word backlash, but the pushback against ei and what I consider to be a pretty rapid regression of companies who previously purported to or performatively talked about supporting diversity diverse communities.
Speaker: you What are your thoughts on how their brands are going to be impacted in the long term as we see them pull back on these commitments they've made to all of all of the underserved communities over the last few years. so
Speaker: This is where I wish ier I had Marty McFly and Back to the Future be able to go see the future a little bit. But what I think is going to happen is we're going to see and one, two, three years what they're missing out on.
Speaker: And not only missing out on on the the on the talent side, but on the consumer side. We're already seeing in ah somewhat in Target. There's evidence out there that their um their footprint and Target has dropped tremendously due to their discommitment. And if you watch the news at all, there was sort of a backtrack from that.
Speaker: And I think there's some power and collective collective community, you know, choosing to spend the money where they believe in the values of that organization or that company and stuff.
Speaker: But I really do see so um i'm goingnna what's going to happen and what I'm seeing now, the tread is that they're going quiet, they're quietly removing it, or if they're quietly staying under the radar that they're still committed to it, but maybe they place it somewhere else. Maybe they're placing it in a procurement or placing it in OHR or placing it somewhere else rather than its own ectomy of DEI.
Speaker: But I challenge those that are listening here to really look at where you're shopping. I'll give you a perfect example. Ikea. they have doubled down on it.
Speaker: Costco, they have doubled down on it. And it's not about it's not about like you know them...
Speaker: i think what's more powerful to me is that that they see the value in it and they're not going to remove something that's going to make their company less efficient or make their company... It removes the dollar amount...
Speaker: and They have less talent there. They want the best of the best at their organization. And then hate to break it to some people, but people with disabilities are some of the best, brightest minds I've ever known.
Speaker: And having them in your organization is going to make your organization so much stronger and better. Yeah, absolutely. And i I promise I have not stepped foot in a target since they pulled back and there are a couple target things I really, really miss.
Speaker: But now I've broken the habit. So I think it's even just a longer term of I'm not shopping there for right now. By the time they recommit, then I'll have found those things other places. And so it's a long term impact. And I think that we are at a place of sophistication, maturity as ah as a community that we are starting to really see through the the charade or the facade a lot.
Speaker: um And I think you just make excellent points. And so this has been such a fun conversation, David. I really appreciate you and Brianna joining me. um And you know as we wrap up, I always like to leave with two questions. so um And the first one is, what one thing, and you might've just told me because I love your innovation conversation, what's one thing you could tell a CEO that will change their mind about hiring talent with disabilities?
Speaker: ah One thing that I can care of is actually something that my bosses have given me is giving me mean the freedom and the opportunity to be the best version of myself and not to hold and limit anyone because of their disability.
Speaker: I'm hard of hearing. I am profoundly deaf from my left ear and my right ear. We go to meetings all the time. i answer the phones. I have technology that handles that. There has never been once where my bosses said, can you do this?
Speaker: No, my bosses believed that I was able to do that. And they believed in me. I think that it's such a powerful thing. It just give your employees, if theyre especially if they're looking and they're motivated to be developing their career, give them every opportunity to be the best version of themselves.
Speaker: And that is really just believing in them and allowing them to be the best version of themselves. I love that. and That's even a different direction than I anticipated would you would go.
Speaker: So then last question is, what is something that someone did for you in your life that helped change your life?
Speaker: I honestly think... um it was it was during a time of difficult conversation. It was, you know, a lot of people don't like uncomfortable conversations. I've gotten better at it.
Speaker: And it was during a time of a uncomfortable situation where I had to go in and talk to him. um This was a different boss in the time. And he basically sat me down, David, know,
Speaker: you know we need to do to do this a little bit differently. We need to have better outcomes. We need to do we need to, you know, set you up for success. We need to go to these different trainings and whatever.
Speaker: He didn't look at me and saying, he never said that I'm not meeting, I'm not meeting the job. He never said that, you know, I can't.
Speaker: He basically said that there are some shortcomings that you're right now. And let's look at how we can invest in you to get better at those things. And that was very, very early in my career. I'm talking the first one or two years.
Speaker: And I've learned from that moment on that I don't know something, I just get educated on it. I either read a book, go to a training, or go to a webinar, see YouTube, listen to a podcast, to get educated on the particular thing that I may be lacking.
Speaker: And i challenge everyone out there that embrace sometimes those uncomfortable conversations, embrace them to the fact that You're listening to the the feedback to make you better versus to the negative feedback that, I'm not improving on that. let me That's just your point of view.
Speaker: Look at it as an opportunity to really foster your career in any direction that you want to go in. Yeah, great point. And we have far too few leaders who spend the time to do that development with their employees. And I'm glad that you got that experience.
Speaker: um So, David, if someone wants to connect with you, um how do they find you? Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn, Disability by David. um Basically what I do I try to do every few every few days or so, I like to try to give a post that talks about disability innovation.
Speaker: A lot of it stems from the book that I read from um Bob Luckett, which is a case study on disability innovation. And it really, I'm trying what i'm trying to do at least of raise the awareness that disability employment if not a charity-based idea.
Speaker: Disability employment is an asset-based idea. They are giving, you are giving your organization the best assets and the best mind to be able to make your organization succeed.
Speaker: And it just, and sometimes it just takes giving them the chance, giving them the opportunity. And you'll be, it'll be wonderful to see where your organization goes when you do give that chance to them.
Speaker: All right. So David Rice on LinkedIn. Thank you, David, for joining us. Thank you, Brianna, for joining us. Another great conversation here at Changing Minds and Changing Lives.
Speaker: And before we go, i just wanted to let to let you guys know that our 2025 webinar is going to be June ah twelve pm eastern Our topic is going to be a review of the first 150 days of the new administration and its impact on disability rights and disability employment.
Speaker: ah We'll pop the link in the show notes. And if you're catching this after the fact, don't worry. You can still go to our website, disabilitytalent.org, and catch the replay. Until then, we'll see you next time.
Speaker: Thanks.
