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CMCL Takeover By Grant Harris - Seen, But Not Heard: Neurodivergence in Communities of Color
96 Plays18 days ago
What does it mean to be seen, but not truly heard? When the color of your skin speaks louder than your voice, and your neurodivergence is misread as defiance, disinterest, or something to be corrected?
In this powerful episode, guest host Grant Harris sits down with two thought-provoking guests whose lives and work sit at the intersection of race, disability, and identity.
Ian Gibbs-Hall is the creator of Curiosity Architecture and the founder of Sonder, a social enterprise that rehumanizes how we see ourselves and the systems we live in. His work blends systems thinking, empathy, and spiritual insight to challenge how institutions define value and behavior. Ian explores how metrics, language, and culture often obscure neurodivergent brilliance—and how reimagining these structures starts with the questions we ask.
Natasha Grant Holmberg offers both a personal and generational lens, grounded in her lived experience as a neurodivergent professional with ADHD. As the Director of Employment & Workforce Development at First Place AZ and creator of Be Open + Be Ready℠, she leads inclusive employment initiatives that focus on readiness training and educating employers on neuro-inclusive hiring practices. Natasha’s work fosters environments where difference is embraced, not erased. Her story isn’t just one of survival—it’s about reclaiming her voice and creating space for others to be heard sooner, more clearly, and more fully.
Together, these voices shed light on what it means to be perpetually interpreted, often misunderstood, and rarely embraced in full. But more importantly, they reveal what’s possible when systems make room for difference, not just to exist, but to lead.
Changing Minds & Changing Lives is produced by Disability Solutions, a nonprofit consulting firm and job board that partners with global brands to drive inclusive hiring and disability-inclusive talent strategies.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Key Themes
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome to Changing Minds and Changing Lives, where we explore diversity, equity, and inclusion through the lens of disability. Each episode, we dive into un insightful, educational, and candid conversations about disability inclusion, what it looks like, why it matters, and how we can all play a part in creating a more accessible and equitable world.
Meet Grant Harris: Diversity Champion
00:00:26
Speaker
I'm Grant Harris, the new diversity champion. organizational culture specialist, autistic author, and speaker. And today, have the privilege of stepping into the host seat with a conversation that's been long overdue.
Intersection of Race and Neurodivergence
00:00:39
Speaker
You've likely heard conversations about race, and you've probably heard conversations about neurodiversity. But rarely do we hear what it means to live at that intersection, to be seen for the color of your skin, but misunderstood the way your mind works.
00:00:54
Speaker
Today's episode is titled Seen But Not Heard Neurodivergence in Communities of Color, because too many of us have lived lives where our differences are observed, judged, or silenced, but naturally understood.
00:01:07
Speaker
And this conversation doesn't simply spotlight separate stories. It challenges what we think we know about race, neurodiversions, and visibility. Today, our guests are innovators and healers and truth tellers.
00:01:22
Speaker
And they're here not just to speak, but to be heard.
Systemic Design and Masking Challenges
00:01:27
Speaker
First foremost, Ian Gibbs-Hall. His work invites us into the systemic and structural design of perception.
00:01:35
Speaker
exploring how organizations and metrics and language often mask neurodivergent brilliance behind institutional conformity. His lens is one of curiosity, of sonder, and we'll let him explain what that means and the belief that our systems reflect our questions.
00:01:53
Speaker
Our second guest, Natasha Grant Holmberg, introduces a personal and generational lens. She really digs deep into the terrain of masking, late diagnosis, and navigating medical systems that don't listen.
00:02:06
Speaker
Her story isn't just about survival. It's about reclaiming the voice and making space for others to be heard earlier and more clearly. Unfortunately, our third guest couldn't be here today.
00:02:17
Speaker
um We will try to bring him back in a different episode as we move forward with this series. So today ah we will paint this portrait of what it means to exist in a world where you're constantly interpreted but rarely understood.
00:02:33
Speaker
And what becomes possible when people are given the tools, the space, and the community to reimagine that reality. So without further ado, Let's get into it. Natasha, welcome in.
00:02:45
Speaker
Good to see you. Good to have you. Very much look forward to this conversation.
00:02:51
Speaker
Likewise. Thanks so much for the opportunity and the space.
00:02:58
Speaker
Natasha, you got on mute. you You're going to have to unmute yourself.
Exploring Intersectionality: Race, Neurodiversity, and Gender
00:03:03
Speaker
Well, yeah we caught that early, but excited to be here and have a really important conversation about the intersectionality between race and neurodiversity and also gender. What does that look like?
00:03:18
Speaker
Oh, that's always a good one. oh So Ian ian does his thing because we've we've hung out before and he likes to eat, eat, eat and go with that. So yeah, like that, Ian. So we we have some group questions and I definitely want you all to to tell your individual stories and we'll dive beeper a little bit later as we go along.
00:03:37
Speaker
um But we've got an hour here today, so I really want to take our time to kind of weave through these journeys. So, but first, a real question, and this is for anyone to answer.
00:03:49
Speaker
Actually, i would love both of you, Max. We'll toss up who those books. So what does it really mean to be, quote unquote, seen, ah but not really understood or misunderstood ah in the spaces where you live and work?
00:04:03
Speaker
And that may be this day and age, the space where we live and work is the exact same, the same chair, the same house, the same room, um but it could not be as well. So what is what does that really mean to you as a person of color?
00:04:17
Speaker
And eeny, meeny, miny, moe, I'll go with Natasha since she's on the top of my screen. Yeah, for me to be ah seeing has always been a very, i guess you could say complicated situation. i'm mixed race, I you know go under what people like to categorize as light skin.
00:04:39
Speaker
I'm like the least dark within my family. And growing up, that kind of gave me almost a little bit of a coat, I guess you could say, when it came to a lot of the racial issues, when I think it came to people wanting to be open about being my friend. But it also meant that when I would bring up black specific issues, people would always kind of look at me like, well, that doesn't really affect you, you know, because you can hide in a way um I didn't start wearing my hair naturally really at all until well into adulthood. I kept it straight pretty much my entire childhood because I wanted to relate to my friends. I wanted to fit in and there was no other real black kids around me. So that's what I shot with. yeah,
00:05:25
Speaker
When it means to be seen, for me, I don't know if I've ever 100% felt seen.
Identity and Realization in College
00:05:31
Speaker
And I think a lot of that just has to do, i grew up in suburbia. I didn't grow up around a lot of other Black families, our neighborhood. I don't think a single Black family even lived in our neighborhood, didn't really go to our church.
00:05:45
Speaker
So... a very different upbringing in the sense of what does it mean to be black? I mean, I got to college and that's probably the first time I saw outside of like a family reunion, more than 15 black people at once. And I was like, oh my gosh, what is happening? Like, this is the coolest thing ever.
00:06:02
Speaker
um and I'm sure everyone was looking at me like, why is this light skin like staring at me all the time? But I was just so excited to be around other black people when I went to college. So I think for me, it was seen as a, is a hard one. I think when it comes to live and work,
00:06:17
Speaker
You know, I work in the area of disability inclusion, but you know, what does that mean now in this previous landscape and our current landscape of how do you not only uphold your beliefs, but also not be the dictionary for others?
00:06:32
Speaker
How do you force people to still need to do their own research? but realize they are leaning on you a little bit because of the color of your skin. And then tack on what I do for a living. I have a multifaceted approach when it comes to my answers to questions, what I find should be talking about resources. I might point people to. Yeah, I feel you.
00:06:53
Speaker
ah Similar upbringing. my My parents ah moved my oldest sister out of the inner city in New York. moved to the suburbs of D.C., specifically the least historic bento, for better school systems. And better school systems mean what type of school systems, white school systems, right?
00:07:14
Speaker
So I grew up in majority ah white neighborhoods, majority white schools. I was... frequently want to be all your few. um And always had this thing of I spoke too well to be considered black.
00:07:29
Speaker
ah But I didn't have enough money to be considered white. like You know, my parents grew up a ah nicest car and That somehow put me and I was in my car. I couldn't even drive.
00:07:42
Speaker
I didn't buy the car. But that somehow put me in the, oh, I was in the white category because of the type of car my parents drove. um And you not dark enough to be black enough and not light enough to be white enough.
00:07:55
Speaker
So I get it from that that perspective. Ian, I would love
Concepts of Identity and Sonder
00:08:01
Speaker
to hear your perspective. You always come at it from an unearthly angle. So um'm I'm looking forward to it What does it mean to you?
00:08:10
Speaker
Yeah, well, first I want to, it's really cool that each of us has a very similar experience with being, and I'm going to put air quotes around it, like black. It's like, I think we keep getting hit with this label in predominantly white spaces. So I'm so excited for this conversation.
00:08:26
Speaker
This doesn't happen to me ever. ah But yeah, I think to be, ah to be seen, think goes back to that word that I put in my introduction. And Grant, thanks for the kind the bump.
00:08:39
Speaker
um It's Sonder. Sonder is a word that has followed me, that that has consumed me for the last, have a puppy playing that's making um banging on the door, consumed me for the last five years.
00:08:52
Speaker
And Sonder is a word from the dictionary of obscure sorrows that is not my own. I would love to claim it, but I cannot. That means the it is the profound realization of realizing that everyone, every face in a crowd, every stranger on the on the street, every person on the other side that you're fighting,
00:09:10
Speaker
has a life that's just as complex as your own. It means that every person is a main character. Like there are no extras. Every person's experience matters and it is wonderfully exhausting.
00:09:22
Speaker
And I think gives us a benchmark for what it means to be seen. because if if we take that approach we take that lens and realize oh no one's here just by the happenstance like everyone is is seeing something that no one else ever has or will see in the history of the universe like right now each of us and to any you to those who are listening it's like no one else is in your seat or standing where you are or walking where you are right now and if they were They wouldn't have the however many years of lived experience that you have that is one of a kind to you to shape what this moment is.
00:09:56
Speaker
And so to me, feeling seen is recognizing, appreciating that perspective, that that authenticity, what it's like for you in this moment. what What can be, what makes paradoxes show up consistently of being both,
00:10:15
Speaker
I think I am also mixed, both being too much and not enough. What's that like? No one's ever really asked me. It's just been, wait, where are you from? Because I don't know how to label you. What identity do I define you? What character do I assume you to play versus seeing you as the actor on the stage that we are on?
00:10:35
Speaker
Yeah, man, powerful. That's like this concept that I've been talking about with some folks and in in my circles about holding two truths at once and live in a very binary world. You're either white or black.
00:10:49
Speaker
um And even those of us who are mixed... We historically in this country go by whatever your dad is. And if your dad is white or black, then that's what you get characterized as, even if you don't identify as that culture or as that side of of your family.
00:11:08
Speaker
But holding these two truths and was, yeah, well, I'm both. And I appreciate my whiteness. I appreciate my blackness. ah they They exist at the same time. Depends on the conversation, maybe the conversation, my blackness comes out a little bit more or the other side.
00:11:23
Speaker
But then again, like how how are we ourselves identifying when our blackness comes out or when our whiteness comes out or any other ways that we want to put into it? But that's what we're talking about today.
00:11:36
Speaker
So thank you for giving digging a little bit deeper into Sondra and what that is. And I'm sure we'll go deeper. So ah one more general question the group, and then we'll start getting into kind of like specific ah areas for each of you.
Examining Systems and Self-Definition
00:11:53
Speaker
So where have you encountered these systems? And systems is a large word, and we can break them down, but you your personal choice of the type of systems. Where have you encountered these systems that have tried to define you before you even...
00:12:07
Speaker
define yourself before you spoke in a room before you wrote something before you showed up at the job at the interview at the car wash like what what system was that play for you something that comes to mind we'll go back to you natasha Yeah, I've been fortunate enough where the jobs that I've had, I've never really felt like in terms of my race that I was encountering, you know, potentially and a wall.
00:12:37
Speaker
But I've experienced that throughout education. i think starting from being ah little kid, I distinctly remember when I was top five in my high school and my principal at the time looked at me and said he was shocked that I was in the top five and he thought that I was going to be much lower in the class and I was the only black person in the top five of my class and I remember that really distinctly because up until that point I had never really spent a lot of time thinking about how does my race define my educational prowess and yes I had heard the comment you don't talk like a black person like
00:13:16
Speaker
why is your grammar so good? But I always just kind of ding that to like growing up in suburbia and not being around other Black people. People, i don't think, view grammar as much as they view certain catchphrases and slang as not speaking properly. It's not necessarily that everyone who's Black is using bad grammar. I don't think that's the case at all. I think people just don't understand slang and decide to use that to do their own confirmation bias.
00:13:43
Speaker
But I've also felt it a lot in the medical field. Um, I've had a lot of doctors try to initially ah treat only the white part of me. And I felt that a lot of things got missed for me growing up and, you know, even leading to my late diagnosis and finding a therapist that works for me has all really, i think, come down to the color of my skin.
00:14:08
Speaker
And is someone willing to treat me as a whole person and not just the black side, not just the white side, holistically every part of me. while also understanding that science very much exists. And we have to remember that and take that into consideration when we're treating our patients.
00:14:25
Speaker
Yeah, well, we know from a medical perspective, and I realize that our conversation thus far has been focused externally on the color our skin and how we present to to other people from a race perspective, and we'll dig deeper on the neurodivergence.
00:14:41
Speaker
But as we know, nu I was recently listening to one of the many podcasts that I listened to, and they were talking about the medical field and how certain races are diagnosed with certain either disorders or diseases because they happen to be black or white and where that came from in the history of those things.
00:15:02
Speaker
For example, keloids, which is basically a skin tissue that occurs after a scar on the skin. It's commonly understood in the medical field that black people are the only ones or ah they're predisposed to these keloids on their skin. And 16% of Black people, they're keloids, red velvet.
00:15:24
Speaker
And the researchers were like, where does this number come from? And hundreds of years back, it came from one conference, ah one one person in Europe, one scientist that studied a group of Black people at that time, and that group of Black people at that time, he found 16% of them had this keloid thing.
00:15:43
Speaker
And then hundreds of years later, that's a through line to, well, we just have it in the medical book. And that this has happened because of black people on the other side. Apparently cystic fibrosis is a white person's disorder or disease.
00:15:58
Speaker
And there have been instances of an X-ray being shown that cystic fibrosis affects the lungs and and how you believe, ah to my understanding. that And the doctor said, well, who's who is the kid with cystic fibrosis? And it was a black child. And according to the medical book and studies, black children don't get cystic fibrosis.
00:16:19
Speaker
So bees met ah these pathologies in the medical field that we live with and these assumptions and these biases that it's in the book and i'm middle pursuit and i study it and it must be true because someone said it well we don't look at all those different levels and then like i said you know you to to take your shot at answering that question and then talking about levels we'll go further than just skin deep because there's more to us than that but in which
00:16:52
Speaker
Yeah. So to make sure I'm i'm aligned, the the question is like, what systems do you see showing up? Yes, that's correct. magazine Yeah. system lay yeah Yeah. So I'll i'll um just focus on race ah because race consumed me.
00:17:09
Speaker
It was you know post George Floyd. We thought something was happening. Something was didn't really stick or it had. I don't know. We're in it now.
Questioning Belief Systems
00:17:19
Speaker
And I was questioning what this was in in this divisive narrative that we have in this polarizing climate. was like, what does it mean to be the in-between? What is this what is race? like Where did it come from?
00:17:30
Speaker
And so if you see me looking on screen, because I'm looking at a curriculum that I developed to answer that question. And Grant, to kind of yes and what you just shared, it's I think that the biggest systems that let people feel unseen are the first is the their belief systems.
00:17:46
Speaker
And the first of those belief systems is that that there is one universal truth that we all must subscribe to. If we don't, we're bad. If we do, we're good. And the second is the system on top of that of not challenging those belief systems.
00:18:00
Speaker
you know if If we ask, just like ah like my three-year-old, them to death but like if we ask why enough if you just keep asking why and why and why eventually um even i my degrees are in chemistry of all things eventually i'll get to i don't know it just is that way And when it's some social construct, which is most everything that we interact with all of the time, it becomes, don't know, that's just what someone before me did.
00:18:26
Speaker
Like, that's just the way that we've done things. And so if you go back far enough, if you go back to, oh I'm trying to find the exact date to sound academic. Oh, and I'm going to get it. If you go back to 1453,
00:18:40
Speaker
And you realize, like and you go like, what is the, what was the intent behind the creation of race? And the actual fun part is race came later. Blackness came first. Blackness came as a concept in 1453 in Portugal.
00:18:53
Speaker
It was created as a tool for slavery, not out of hatred, but to liberate, to save. And it came in this this awful, horrible book that you can buy on Amazon now called The Discovery and the Conquest of Guinea.
00:19:06
Speaker
And that was written by... I can't roll my R's, I can't pronounce his name, I don't want to pronounce his name, it's not a good book. It creates a brand new category of people, the black category, the subhuman category.
00:19:20
Speaker
And that narrative was thrust upon people with darker skin to allow, to enable the transatlantic slave trade, because the Prince of Portugal at that time didn't want to have to go east, because what if I go west?
00:19:31
Speaker
So I think that these these structures exist because we don't challenge them. That's 1453. How's that intent persisted? It's like, well, all of these problems we have now, there a lot of them are out of hatred and a lot of them aren't.
00:19:44
Speaker
It's the same intent from before. it's and We have to save. this kind of I don't know if this is said directly, but it's always underneath the surface. Like we have to save black people. How do we how do we protect black people? This is instead of like, no, what what is causing us to believe that this group of people, people, human beings are subhuman in the first place?
00:20:03
Speaker
Oh, it's everything around us. It's how we've zoned houses. It's our education system. It's how we assess what intelligence is. ah This classic aptitude test or the SAT is what it used to be called. used to have a picture of which women is more attractive.
00:20:19
Speaker
would have a picture of a white woman and a black woman. It's everywhere. Like it's. It's exhausting. And if you start questioning things. Those systems show themselves.
00:20:33
Speaker
and And I think what what we're dealing with now with this polarization is some people have questioned and some people haven't had the opportunity to. They either haven't felt safe to or haven't had a gentle nudge or kind push to do so.
00:20:48
Speaker
And think we need more of those spaces and those gentle nudges. Well, that's why we're here. We're here in this phase to have better nudge. you ah You mentioned three-year-old, have a four-year-old, and my other two kids are older.
00:21:01
Speaker
But the question of why and why, you're you're you're right at certain point. It's not, well, this is why, because of all of this, either evidence or lived experience, it's like out of frustration. we That's just the way it is.
00:21:16
Speaker
That's the foundation that we get to hit bedrock. And then we as adults, we have a choice to say, well, we leave it at that because now the kid has ah finality or we can be like, well, um don't really know what it is.
00:21:32
Speaker
Maybe we should think differently. Maybe what do you think we should do? Like, and have that level of curiosity back and forth for that conversation with a three and four year up old, because our kids will be the first ones to tell us that we're wrong.
00:21:46
Speaker
And they'll be the first ones to think up something that is completely vastly different than what us adults have come up with. So thank you for that, Ian. Um,
00:21:58
Speaker
I do want to get into some some individualized questions and based on your your histories and and your lived experiences.
Identity Exploration as a Black Neurodivergent Woman
00:22:05
Speaker
So, Natasha, coming back to you, ah identifying as a woman, identifying as a woman of color, identifying as a woman of color who is also neurodivergent, and you can layer on any other kind of multiple that you would like, but just those three in and of themselves oh can be difficult. So you mentioned earlier your your late diagnosis and where Similar, and also had a late diagnosis.
00:22:31
Speaker
So, and also your language around that and being able to speak to it. Can you tell us more about your need and exploration, how you came to find yourself? Yeah, I think building off to everything that Ian was saying in terms we're creation of our own environment, why do we do things the way that they do? a big question I always like to ask is, are we doing things this way because we've always done them that way? Or is there actually a purpose behind that decision making?
00:23:01
Speaker
And I feel like that's driven a lot of my life and drove me to this point of eventually getting diagnosed is why are the things that are happening to me happening to me?
00:23:12
Speaker
You know, why as a woman am I afraid to go outside at night? Like, why, why do I feel that way? Why am I being told I have to carry pepper spray, but my brother's not being told the same thing. Like, where is that coming from? and you know, that maybe should have been a little inkling as a child that I was neurodivergent when I couldn't take a single answer and just say, oh cool.
00:23:34
Speaker
Got it. Let's move on. No, I had to keep digging and digging and digging because why was, what was the purpose? And so i was always a really good student and now knowing way more about neurodivergency, that was,
00:23:48
Speaker
A big part of why I think I didn't get diagnosed is I was a very anxious student, but I was a very good student. um And so that was really just. That's how she is. That's okay. Or she's trying to keep up with the Joneses. Or the reason she's pushing her so hard herself so hard is because she's going after Black excellence, which kind of just that phrase in itself really grinds my gears. It's just excellence, not excellence, period.
00:24:19
Speaker
why like it's Why can I only be excellent with my race? Why are you excellent? Yeah. And so telling me and telling my parents that I'm anxious and the doctors looking at me and saying I'm anxious and I'm getting good grades because I'm trying to prove myself and be black and excellent was like, what?
00:24:41
Speaker
Like that hasn't caught, that wasn't even thinking about that. I wasn't trying to prove anything to anyone when it came to the color of my skin. That wasn't what I was aiming for. i was of course aware didn't,
00:24:53
Speaker
have a father who only got into the college he got into because of the color of his skin. Like he, they were very clear with him. We need to reach a quota. Come go to our university. So I was I was, you know, keeping in mind with those things, but I was just trying to get good grades because i but unlike my peers, my parents weren't going to be paying for all of my college. So that's really what I was focusing on.
00:25:16
Speaker
No excellence involved. And then I was still anxious. I got to college and I was still anxious, but I was still getting good grades. And then I, you know, moved up in my career and it wasn't until I started working that that black excellence thing suddenly came back into play again as I was getting promoted you know,
00:25:36
Speaker
I wasn't getting the congratulations on your promotion. i was getting congratulations on your promotion because that must have been really hard for you. Or your parents must be so proud because look what you've accomplished in your life.
00:25:52
Speaker
And this was coming from, you know, family members, people that I was friends with. And it kind of made me realize that, we're all living in this world where everyone's trying to confirm their biases that they have in you in their head. And that inexplicably was confirming all of their black excellence bias. You know, I, when I got my master's degree, it was like this huge shock. And I'm like, I didn't even get a complex master's degree. Like I was like, I had to be good at writing papers.
00:26:20
Speaker
um That was pretty much it. And so as I got promoted, And I started having more people rely on me. realized like I am struggling and I do not understand how to put things in to words.
00:26:36
Speaker
And i have always been someone that's very finite. And as I was growing in my career, i was beginning to supervise staff. I realized a lot of the way I was processing things was very...
00:26:48
Speaker
Some like to say the neurodivergency, black and white, um and then struggling with systems in the workplace. I was like, this just doesn't make sense. And kind of having that inability to just like sit on my hands when everyone in the room was like, dude, just sit on your hands. like Why are you speaking?
00:27:05
Speaker
But it really, for me, came for when I no longer could perform to the level that I was used to performing. um I never struggled with that growing up as a kid. I was always able to get really good grades. I was always on top of everything.
00:27:19
Speaker
ah was a pretty organized kid. And suddenly, like, my house was a mess. My life was a mess. My planner was making me, like, sweat every time I looked at it. And so I was like, I'm going to go to the doctor.
00:27:31
Speaker
was like, I'm going to try a new psychiatrist. Like I'd been on anxiety meds my whole life. And I was like, maybe something's wrong with the dosing. I don't know, whatever. And I sit down, she's just asking me generic questions.
00:27:41
Speaker
And I talk about probably six or seven different subjects within 30 minutes. And she's looking at me and she's like, has anyone ever discussed with you whether you can have ADHD?
00:27:54
Speaker
And I was like, no, like, I don't have ADHD. And it wasn't because I was anti having ADHD. It was just like, I would know if I have ADHD. I mean, I have worked with the disability population my entire career.
00:28:09
Speaker
Like that is what pays my bills. So I was like, I would know if I have ADHD, I would know these things. And even though subconsciously, like I had done research on the way that autism has been diagnosed in black individuals. I saw it with in my own family, the diagnosis and the lack of diagnosis. And I was still sitting there completely shocked about what she was saying to me. And then also really frustrated because I grew up in a very pro mental health family, you know, in terms of very different than some typical black families in the aspect of like, don't trust, don't trust, don't trust.
00:28:47
Speaker
We did have a really hard time finding good fits, but I grew up going to therapy. I grew up having a psychiatrist and getting access to the help that I needed. Not always good access.
00:28:59
Speaker
um The doctors didn't always understand what was going on I completely stopped going to therapy after the George Floyd happened because my therapist thought I was being dramatic. And I was like, um, no, no dramatics here.
00:29:12
Speaker
and so finally having someone listen to me and start asking questions really then made me reflect on how much time I lost out on if I would have been diagnosed.
00:29:24
Speaker
You know, the fact that I'm now an adult and been on sleeping meds my entire life because I didn't know I had insomnia. I thought everyone else wasn't sleeping too. and Now I'm medicated for my ADHD and the ability for me to just balance things is so much better.
00:29:40
Speaker
um i'm able to actually like go to therapy and have like good therapy. I will add though, I do have a black therapist and I think that plays a large role in me being able to go to therapy successfully is I don't feel like i have to walk on eggshells with what I might say.
00:29:56
Speaker
um but yeah, being late diagnosed and then two being in this career field, it was really a tailspin for me. And I still, it still is a tailspin because two, I was masking for so long.
00:30:11
Speaker
And i got all of my promotions before I knew I was neurodivergent. And so it was interesting for me then after I got them reflecting on would I have gotten these Would I have been seen this way at other companies?
00:30:32
Speaker
I work with a lot of people in the corporate world and I still to this day, i very much play it to my chest sometimes. you know Anyone spends enough time on my LinkedIn, they'll probably be able to figure out that I have ADHD. But but I don't always start a conversation with that, even though my job is literally getting employers to hire neurodivergent individuals, but it's because I'm there because they don't know what they're doing.
00:30:56
Speaker
So I don't want to walk myself into their confirmation bias and then suddenly they're not listening to me because they think I'm pushing my own agenda. So similar to being a black person, so similar to being a woman.
00:31:07
Speaker
You only care about these issues because they're impacting you. So suddenly I got this diagnosis and I wasn't ashamed of it, but I now realized I had a third thing for people to use bias on me against. I had a third thing for people to think the only reason you care, the only reason you're pushing this topic is because it involves you.
00:31:30
Speaker
And we get it. We know that there's selfish people all over the world, you know, but I shouldn't have to prove that I'm not selfish because I'm a woman. I'm black.
00:31:41
Speaker
I'm neurodivergent. I shouldn't have to prove that the reason that I care is not necessarily because of me. And that's something I still battle with. And I think that's something probably all of us battle with is we have these interconnecting pieces of us and all of our interconnecting pieces bring a bias of some kind that people are chasing to confirm whether they think it or not. Everybody is biased in some way.
00:32:09
Speaker
Yeah, so many things. But the one thing that I want to pick up on there is knew it was come up in this conversation about masking, black masking. So all these all are all of the listeners are familiar with the concept of masking.
Cultural Significance of Black Masking
00:32:26
Speaker
I'm not going to insult anyone's intelligence.
00:32:28
Speaker
However, I was introduced to a new concept of black masking, and I was anxious interested to see if either one of you have heard of it before. So black masking is a term or a process ah that is deep in black history, specifically in Louisiana, specifically in New Orleans and the Creole South, where black the combination and the intersection of Native Americans and Black people came together many years ago.
00:33:00
Speaker
And there's a process of beating, of thousands and thousands of beating that Black people make, and they make into these elaborate costumes that are ah influenced by and connected through and by Native American heritage.
00:33:18
Speaker
And they wear them throughout Mardi Gras in a season in in New Orleans, which I've never been. hear it's good time. I got to check it out. But it's this concept of black masking because black people do it. They're only community that does it.
00:33:32
Speaker
They learned it from the Native American community. And we all know. their rich history and all the biases that they have in their communities. So these two communities intersect and then create this concept of black masking, which has nothing to do with neurodivergence.
00:33:50
Speaker
But when I heard about it, I was like, I know I'm talking to Ian and I'm talking to Sasha and we're going to have this conversation and masking is going to come up. But it transcribes and jumps over lines from neurodivergence to these two communities that don't really have that much in common, but have a lot in common in terms of how they've been marginalized and the the ah misuse and abuse of their challenge and their skills and their abilities.
00:34:21
Speaker
And then it's in this frame of black masking that we talk about from a neurodivergent perspective. So i was I thought that was very interesting and I encourage you all listening to to look it up.
00:34:32
Speaker
And it's not just about masking from neurodivergent perspective, but Black people in New Orleans, influenced by Native Americans, create these elaborate hairdressers and costumes and all that through thousands and thousands of beads.
00:34:46
Speaker
And it's really in that community. So ah aside. think we socially mask, though. I think black people socially mask all the time. I think we mask in the way that we dress, too. I mean, there's a lot of discourse right now in the WNBA between some players, and a lot of it is coming between the way that they're dressing.
00:35:06
Speaker
And for me, it comes down to one individual is like, this is my fashion sense. This is how I want to wear clothes. Why does it matter? I'm going to be me, but they're being attacked.
00:35:17
Speaker
And it's like, they're mad because in my opinion, they're not black masking. And I think we see that in every single day and, you know, ian i don't actually know like how you grew up but i think you know for grant and i growing up in kind of suburbia we may have not realized that we were black masking but i think on a subconscious level so similar to neurodivergent people we knew we say this we act this way we're not going to be accepted into the circle that we've been placed and yes we're kids
00:35:52
Speaker
And our parents made the decisions that they made for us, but we're still aware. It's no different than going to a school and kids getting bullied for being interested in certain things. Those kids made a conscious choice to say, i don't care. This is what I like.
00:36:08
Speaker
Knowing they're not going to fit into those circles because kids are mean. and Well, think we do that our entire lives. I mean, If I'm too loud in a meeting, I'm very aware that that could be interpreted in a multitude of ways.
00:36:22
Speaker
And i know for a fact that I was black masking pretty heavily, i would say, up until I finished college.
Navigating Identity Post-College
00:36:31
Speaker
because i did not know how to navigate the true real world.
00:36:37
Speaker
And the fact that now I was responsible for myself, I was responsible for my own education, and more importantly, I was responsible for how I choose to identify as a woman and as a black person, because my parents weren't there any longer.
00:36:53
Speaker
I was getting to choose the neighborhoods that I lived in. I was getting to choose the friends that I was making, you know? And I think we all do it. And I think we still probably do it without realizing it sometimes.
00:37:04
Speaker
um And you had to be conscious of it But great, you make a good point. And I think it's it's a social thing too, that we're looking out for, you're looking out for yourselves, you know, but I know I don't have the problem being too loud or meetings.
00:37:22
Speaker
I did it from the opposite, that i'm I'm too quiet and somehow I'm disinterested or I'm holding back with something. And that's not necessarily the case. Ian, I definitely ah would love to hear your your perspective and your input.
00:37:40
Speaker
Yeah, thanks for the space. And Natasha, I'm going back to you sharing your experience before. I'm sorry about your therapist. That's a real bummer. And know I wish we could see more.
00:37:52
Speaker
ah But I think you you talked about growing up in suburbia. And i don't i I don't want to one up, but I will, yes, and growing up in suburbia. I grew up in rural Iowa, of all places.
00:38:04
Speaker
Yeah, that's, yeah. um So the that experience and growing up, um because Natasha really resonated with what you shared before about like, I couldn't play the game anymore.
00:38:17
Speaker
Like I couldn't, I couldn't perform. Sorry, that's that's the part I wanted to add. Like I couldn't, I can't perform anymore. And in Iowa, I tried and i've I've been looking down, trying to find this photo. It's my least favorite photo of all time.
00:38:29
Speaker
ah This is me in middle school. I'm doing my best to do what everyone had told me to do. Throw your hair out, have an afro, get a chain lived in rural Iowa. We had we had a town of was it the county had 8000 people.
00:38:43
Speaker
The biggest town was 2000. I'll bring it back up. Isn't that terrible? That poor kid. Ian, I was like, you can't you got to bring it back. I was going to say bring it back. Like the chain is so low. You got the Nautica shirt like, oh, not a shirt. And the chain stolen from my stepmom.
00:39:03
Speaker
Yeah, you were trying to serve. I don't know if you did, but you were trying. No, i was I was five foot two. I didn't know what I was doing. Like, i was a ten or one. ah What isn't featured are South Pole pants, Birdman lugs, and not a clue as to what I was doing.
00:39:18
Speaker
Like... Going back to like feeling seen, like, oh, wait if like by playing and performing what was expected, I'm like, oh, I'll succumb to this narrative. Everyone's telling me to, you know, somehow be different.
00:39:32
Speaker
Like I didn't want to be different. I grew up. I grew up with my mom. My mom's white. She married who I call my dad. My dad looks nothing like me because we are not related by blood. He is five foot nine, blonde hair, blue eyed and has an umlaut in his last name. He is German as all get out.
00:39:49
Speaker
And my sister looks just like him. So Growing up in Iowa with that, it's like, oh, what what is this? What is this? What is how do I perform? And after enough time of looking at this stuff and going like this doesn't feel right, this, this kid kept trying to do what he needed to do up through high school and college and develop so much anxiety and self loathing and destructive coping tendencies that it took a while to realize like, oh, it's not, it's not the game. Like I can't perform this game anymore because the game is broken.
00:40:24
Speaker
And the more i I play these games, the more I see like, it's not broken. It's working exactly as it's intended. Like we, we haven't changed the way that we've worked since the industrial revolution. We haven't made space to account for everyone's complexities.
00:40:38
Speaker
We have made it so that every person is interchangeable into an, some derivative of an assembly line
Misunderstanding Neurodivergence in Innovation
00:40:45
Speaker
to create a manufactured product, to create a tech product, to create something.
00:40:50
Speaker
Do this, be this way, fit the culture and sit down and shut up and that didn't feel good to me. I'll pause that. You, you talk about the, the, the workplace and, uh, the evolution of the worker and that plays. And you talk about tech, you talk a lot about innovation.
00:41:11
Speaker
So let's pull on that thread a bit. Um, In your experience, what's the most misunderstood
00:41:23
Speaker
trait when it comes to neurodivergence and innovation in the workplace? Because you you were going there and I wanted to get the innovation later on, but you've got me there fast. Yeah. oh Thanks for letting me skip ahead in line.
00:41:37
Speaker
ah I think what I'm trying to skirt around is the fact that I i am not formally diagnosed with a form of neurodivergence. However, of course I am like and everything I talk about and do it like my whole, like it's just, it's, it makes sense.
00:41:53
Speaker
And I think the, sorry, what was the question again? I'm getting too excited. No, you're good. um It was about innovation because you were talking about no tech and the evolution of the worker.
00:42:05
Speaker
others What's the through line between neurodiversions, whether you're diagnosed or or not, in innovation workplace, not just today, but but tomorrow as you see it?
00:42:16
Speaker
Yeah. So think two two perspective shifts that have really helped me seeing innovation differently is by looking at it not as a a right answer that needs to be found.
00:42:29
Speaker
It's not the silver bullet that's hiding in a drawer somewhere that's going to save the company and give you the right idea. Like innovation is a it's a mindset. It's a way to realize there is no one universal truth and that paradoxically,
00:42:44
Speaker
which it just it hurts. I think about this all day and it still hurts. Everyone sees something that no one else has seen. So when you're trying to create when you're trying to create something new, you need to back up and figure out what's the actual problem here? What are we actually what are we trying to solve? are we
00:43:02
Speaker
It's one of my my favorite examples from when I was a management consultant. The system that did not work for me was ah reframing how an elevator can be broken. talk about this all the time.
00:43:13
Speaker
like I love it. it's Let's say you're you're a building attendant, you're in charge of a building, and you just got a a brand new elevator. I don't know how much elevators cost. 10,000, tens of thousands of dollars. A lot of money. It's a lot of metal.
00:43:27
Speaker
And your tenants get in and they they line up and then they start coming to your front desk and complaining. they're Like, hey, this is taking too long. The elevator is broken. So that framing initially, we're not questioning it.
00:43:39
Speaker
We're just taking it as is. It has always been this way. It is broken. Let's fix it instead of going a little bit deeper. And so what that leads to is I think where a lot of individuals are both in personal lives and organizationally, which is let's figure out how to fix the elevator.
00:43:55
Speaker
Let's, let's grease the wheels. Let's, put a USB thing in the, I don't know elevators work. Let's, let's make sure everything is running. Let's get a technician out here. Let's do all of it. And so you do all that still complaining.
00:44:07
Speaker
It's too slow. And then let's say a new kid, you know, an intern at your, at your business comes by and fixes this problem with one simple addition. They just put a mirror in that elevator.
00:44:21
Speaker
What's your problem? <unk>s not moving too slowly, it's that people are bored. And so it's, that we've we've focused on just fine tuning this elevator over and over again. was like, no, no, what what is the human experience beneath it that is driving this need, that is creating this problem that we are now trying to solve? Can we do that one first?
00:44:42
Speaker
And that's why when talking about innovating and finding something new, it's not some magical thing that we haven't thought of. The truth isn't hidden. It's just overlooked.
00:44:53
Speaker
We've all got something really cool we could share if we're given the safety to share it, to be authentic, to share, like, I don't like this. Let's do this instead. That might work better.
00:45:05
Speaker
I'll keep going. I'll pause. but no So that little bit of how people think differently because you put up a mirror and then the fall process is different because, like you said, the but focus is not on time. It's on boil.
00:45:21
Speaker
oh And it's interesting. Netflix, different kind of thing, but that's the way my autistic brain works. So Netflix is as competition, right? Streaming service. They're fighting against all the others because every other day there's a new streaming service that comes out.
00:45:38
Speaker
And I'll ask you to maybe, maybe, you know, maybe you don't, but what is, what is Netflix's, who is Netflix's or what is Netflix's biggest competition? Who is their biggest competitor?
00:45:49
Speaker
What do you think? Outside. Outside. Okay. Spending time with your family. Anything that detracts time from you in any way.
00:46:00
Speaker
I mean, i think based off the culture that we're living in of like, we want access to things now, now, now, now. now I think Netflix's biggest competitor is any show it doesn't produce itself that's currently on that's popular that you know, you can't get access to on Netflix, which is where, you know, it really differentiates between like Hulu.
00:46:20
Speaker
Hulu, you get all sorts of accesses yeah everything. um but I think, too, like, kind of feel like Netflix's biggest competition sometimes is itself because we're also living in this age where people just want everything.
00:46:38
Speaker
Like, I canceled my Netflix for a long time. And quite frankly, the only reason I just added it back is because you can watch Netflix on the Peloton. And my husband and I just got a Peloton and I need to be distracted in order to work out.
00:46:54
Speaker
And sometimes reading my Kindle on the Peloton gives me a headache. So that's only reason we got Netflix back. I didn't need it outside of that, but now it's serving a purpose for me. Okay.
00:47:05
Speaker
Do people really need the six streaming services? No, but do they not wanna be at risk of this artificial fear of what if I miss something? What if I don't have the streaming service that the latest thing is on? What if I'm alone with my own thoughts for five seconds? Can't let that happen.
00:47:23
Speaker
So I don't know. I don't know what the actual answer to that question is. All those two. And I like Ian's answer. I like yours too, Natasha. But, and again, I wasn't in the room with the recorders, but apparently ah what I read, Netflix's biggest time kitchen is sleeping. if people are then they're not watching.
00:47:50
Speaker
So yeah, Hulu and all these others. And in you said outside, which is which is one thing, but you can have your phone outside and still watch. But if you're sleeping, then you're not watching. So how do we how do we keep people glued, which is why they decrease the I don't know what it's called, but the transition time between episodes. You just keep going. You binge and you keep going, keep going, keep going. I got it. I get this shows up. The reason i is because it shows up in my age. Why? Because my wife is ADHD and most ADHD people have different circadian rhythms. I'll go with me and my wife. We have very vastly different circadian rhythms.
00:48:28
Speaker
And she's a night owl and I'm a morning person. And that's just how it runs. Whether she's watching a Netflix show and she's in it, just another episode, just another episode because she's not sleeping because she's watching.
00:48:40
Speaker
And that affects obviously everything else that you do in life. So, but the reason I bring that up is just the, the, the divergent thinking of, well, yeah, my competitive market is Hulu or Disney plus. Well, not really.
00:48:52
Speaker
It's this thing over here. And that's what Ian was getting at with the mirrors of elevator. It's not this thing. It's really this thing. And we look at those things differently. That's where divergent thinking comes in.
00:49:04
Speaker
So with a few minutes left. the fixed thing too Yeah. With a few minutes we had left, I wanted to hit each of you with with one last question. We got about 10 minutes left.
00:49:16
Speaker
Um, Actually, I want to do this to go off script a bit.
Advice for Black Neurodivergent Women
00:49:23
Speaker
So, Natasha, you have spoken at depth about being a black woman who's, you know, a diversion.
00:49:31
Speaker
What is one thing that you can give to other people who identify like a black woman? and who are out loud and proud about being neurodivergent or who are still like you, even so even you think I'm proud still play close to the tracks, who maybe who have not come out ah in that way, who have not diverged, divulged.
00:49:51
Speaker
oh What's one piece of advice that you would those folks?
00:49:56
Speaker
I think the biggest piece of advice I would give people is, especially being black and neurodivergent and a woman is Don't try to fix yourself.
00:50:07
Speaker
Don't focus on the fact that you are now somehow broken and that you have somehow now found another piece of your identity that you can't wash away. i think, you know, when you're black, you can't ever change that. You can't, that doesn't go away. And then you get neurodiversity, which is often an invisible diagnosis. You kind of, your first thought might be, okay, I don't want this. I don't want to tack on this, but it's invisible. So I can just pretend and I can fix myself.
00:50:34
Speaker
So people won't know. And that would be my biggest suggestion is is don't don't try to fix yourself. Figure out where your neurodiversity is really benefiting your life and finding those tools that are beneficial. But something that Grant and I have talked about in depth is,
00:50:52
Speaker
I always like to say, if someone were to ask me, what do I need? i need a community. i need people who are also black females and neurodivergent who can understand where I'm coming from. It's great. You know, I'm good friends with Grant and it's great having another black neurodivergent person to talk to but the female experience is still different.
00:51:11
Speaker
And, So I want to say find community um and try to build that community. But even when Grant and I are were prepping for this podcast, you know, it not the easiest thing to try to find black neurodivergent women, you know, and we're there, but where are we hiding?
00:51:29
Speaker
You know, how can we work together? So be yourself, try not to hate yourself and embrace who you are and, you know, Find the tools that work for you, but don't don't add another layer to your life that you have to mask.
00:51:47
Speaker
itna Thank you. Ian, I'd turn it started over you.
Curiosity as a Connection Tool
00:51:50
Speaker
I know you're you're big in curiosity and systems thinking and innovation in those particular areas.
00:52:02
Speaker
What's one thing in terms of, uh, the workplace, um, one thing that you want to leave with the audience from, from the, from a curiosity perspective.
00:52:16
Speaker
I would invite and or urge to reframe how you look at curiosity. It's not, um, the way i looked at it for the longest time like oh it's a kid poking a toad with a stick or it's you know putting your finger in a light socket or it's eating eating dirt again three-year-old it's it's a doorway it's a structural technology it's a new way to connect like through being curious you can uncover things you never imagined before quite literally if
00:52:52
Speaker
And I think from this, we can it's hard to give two reframes, but looking at empathy differently too can enable this. And that empathy isn't just putting yourself in someone else's shoes, because that's taken into assumption that you know what it's like to wear those shoes.
00:53:07
Speaker
I think the best way we can we can be empathetic is to ask, what's it like to wear those shoes? And then be able to create an environment where the person that is being asked can be authentic about what it's like.
00:53:18
Speaker
They could share, it yeah, they smell terrible or they feel great or like they're itchy, something. But not just what's it like to stand there. Like it's about listening. And i think the more we look at curiosity like that, it's a it's a magic key that keeps opening doors. And every door is the the window to someone's mind that we can't possibly understand unless they choose to tell us.
00:53:41
Speaker
and so all of these, you know, the silver bullets, the the magic things we're trying to find a change, to innovate, to move forward, whatever, like, let's just find a way to be people together a lot more effectively.
00:53:52
Speaker
And by effectively, I mean authentically. Because I think right now, what so much of this, I think, stuff that we see, and this is a very broad When I say stuff, I mean, when you turn on your phone and see every, every summer, everybody's fighting for some reason and, and no one's happy and things aren't working and all of that.
00:54:12
Speaker
Like, what if, what if we started asking what if more, and what if we looked past, you know neurodiversity as being something that needs to be fixed and instead see it as, oh, the systems that we have, the the air that we're used to breathing, the water that we're used to swimming in metaphorically or literally, I'm not quite sure.
00:54:35
Speaker
has convinced us that conformity is equal to familiarity and familiarity is just being a part of survival loops and processes that we don't know where they began. It's taking that mask off to discover something about ourselves. And we can only do that if we ask questions and feel safe enough to do so together.
00:54:56
Speaker
Yeah, thank you for that question. Something about safety. And I'll leave ah my last comment based off of yours. This is a new concept that I've been introduced to.
From Safe Places to Safe People
00:55:09
Speaker
and I'm on the journey of learning, of moving from safe places to safe people. Because if you have a place and two people are there, ah this place is the box and you label that place behind that door, this place is safe.
00:55:25
Speaker
but If an unsafe, harmful person enters that space, then it's a long step. However, it no matter how many safe people happen to be in their box, However, if you make safe people like Natasha, like Ian, like me, it doesn't matter wherever we go, inside that box, behind that door, under the fence, it doesn't matter where we go We carry the safe place with us because we're sick people.
00:55:47
Speaker
Unless and listen than until an unsafe person encounters us or we encounter them. And then thereby we can remove ourselves from that and go somewhere else and still be safe. So it's a concept that was recently introduced to me by some of my black ah female or woman identifying colleagues. Natasha, who I need to introduce you to.
00:56:11
Speaker
Because I went on that search and I said, Natasha can't be doing one. She can't be only one ice in isolation. I felt in isolation before it's where to find black men who were Out loud and proud about having these conversations.
00:56:24
Speaker
It's even more rare to find black women, but Natasha will be happy to hear I found one. So I'm going to make those introductions. But they introduced me to this type of of concept and different way of thinking from a neurodivergent perspective.
00:56:37
Speaker
So this conversation has been awesome.
Closing Remarks on Changing Minds
00:56:42
Speaker
I appreciate all of you. And in closing,
00:56:46
Speaker
ah would like to say that none of these conversations and none of these perspectives and anything that you all have experienced in life is a mistake. ah You aren't exceptions.
00:56:58
Speaker
This is the norm of how we think and feel in these types of conversations because of everything that's around us, like Ian said, swimming in that water. I'm not the best swimmer, but I get it metaphorically.
00:57:10
Speaker
So to the audience out there, if you heard something today that shifted how you think, share it, reflect on it. Better yet, ask a person of color you know or ask a person of color you don't know.
00:57:22
Speaker
about their experience of being seen and or unseen or understood and or misunderstood. I'm just missing. So here again, we're not changing minds. We're changing the structures of those minds.
00:57:36
Speaker
And real inclusion means rethinking what we've accepted as unquote normal. Rebuilding that with equity at the center. So I say to you, audience, thank you for joining us today. Thank you for allowing me to be the host and to take over the podcast. There will be future guests. There will be a part two. We'll work on that as we speak.
00:57:56
Speaker
So keep questioning, keep learning, keep showing up, keep changing. And as I like to say, ah move beyond compliance to community. ah So visit changingmindsandlives.org to learn more.
00:58:09
Speaker
And until next time, Grant Harris, I've been your host. Thanks for listening. Natasha, thank you. Ian, thank you. Very much look forward to the next time.