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People Over Process: Summer Miller on Building Cultures That Last
8 Plays25 days ago
Change doesn’t have to mean burnout or disengagement. In this episode of Behind the Build, Curtis Forbes talks with consultant and educator Summer Miller about why real growth starts with people, not processes.
From her journey in jazz composition to leading people-centered consulting, Summer shares why curiosity, critical thinking, and two-way communication are the keys to thriving workplaces and how leaders can build cultures where connection beats compliance.
About Summer:
Summer Miller helps businesses navigate change and growth without leaving people behind. Through her work as an advisor, educator, facilitator, and speaker, she helps leaders and teams integrate people-centered practices and design to support their growth strategy. Summer holds a doctorate in organizational leadership and teaches master’s courses through the University of Minnesota and the University of Denver. She is a life-long learner with a passion for building capability and confidence in others.
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Transcript
Introduction to Mustard Hub Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Hi, everyone. It's time again for Mustard Hub Voices Behind the Build. In these episodes, we speak with the people building, backing, and running better workplaces. I'm your host, Curtis Forbes.
00:00:17
Speaker
Welcome to today's Fireside Chat. My guest today is Summer Miller. Summer Miller helps businesses navigate change and growth without leaving people behind.
00:00:28
Speaker
Through her work as an advisor, educator, facilitator, and speaker, She helps leaders and teams integrate people-centered practices and design to support their growth strategy.
00:00:41
Speaker
Summer holds a doctorate in organizational leadership and teaches master's courses through the University of Minnesota and the University of Denver. She's a lifelong learner with a passion for building capability and confidence in others. Welcome to Behind the Build, Summer.
00:00:58
Speaker
Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
Summer's Musical Journey
00:01:00
Speaker
So, The most important thing first, you're a music lover like me. i didn't know we had that in common.
00:01:10
Speaker
ah top That's where I spent the majority of my early career, actually, on the jazz circuit, playing music all over the place. What kind of stuff is your favorite? And I think, correct me if I'm wrong, you also arrange music.
00:01:25
Speaker
I do. So I started my in college, I have a degree in a bachelor of music degree. So I focused on composition and arranging and I love jazz arranging. So That's awesome.
00:01:36
Speaker
um I would say early on, I did a lot of vocal jazz arranging. So my instrument was voice. I play acoustic guitar now, but um that's what I did early on. Now, mostly it's me and my guitar because that's a little easier with life and kids and yeah all the things.
00:01:54
Speaker
I love that. So we share that in common. I was a jazz composition major, so we are s simpatico.
Founding SDM Integrative Consulting
00:01:59
Speaker
um Well, your passion for you know people-centered experiences, which is a philosophy I can totally get behind.
00:02:08
Speaker
um Where did this passion come from? I'm guessing it's something that has grown throughout your career? i think so. I probably would have called it different things earlier on, but it was this this idea of, i think, first wanting to understand what makes people tick, like what helps people um be at their best,
00:02:26
Speaker
What do people need to navigate hard things? Some of that you learn through going through the pain of it. This didn't go well. What could we have done? Or this didn't feel good. What should have been here?
00:02:37
Speaker
So, and I'm a problem solver. I think a lot of us are in HR or HR adjacent spaces. So for me, it was really just um trying to dig at that and understand it, which made me, I'm kind of nerdy. So I just kept learning and talking to people and Sometimes you do it learn that through assessments, through schooling and all of those things. But for me, it was wanting to develop people and help them be at their best.
00:03:04
Speaker
I started that in the sales space in banking and then just continued it on in pretty much every job I've had since. um Super interesting, like winding path, I would say, um especially starting out in music and then kind of going in in that direction.
00:03:23
Speaker
You built a whole business around getting people to focus on people. I mean, you're you're you're the founder and principal at SDM Integrative Consulting. And I'd love to kind of hear what took you into that consulting world and maybe what inspired you to launch you know this consultancy and run your own firm.
Transition to Consulting
00:03:45
Speaker
I think it it's one of those things I never dreamed of owning a business or running a business. um I was in banking for 25 years and all different types of roles. But I think the common thread was the people-centered piece and consulting.
00:03:59
Speaker
So I led consulting teams within a company. and consultative practice. And in a lot of cases, I was teaching ah HR professionals how to be consultative. So there's kind of those two things in common. And I started thinking about, well, now that I i know I need a new adventure, i want to test drive some things.
00:04:17
Speaker
So I tried just doing some ah HR consulting. And I realized that I can do this. But what I really love is helping people focus in on the people side. How do you create the right conditions for people to navigate hard things?
00:04:31
Speaker
or to support your business growth. And that's where it I kind of married together the things I love. So it's consulting, it's people centered, and it's really helping design for humans.
00:04:44
Speaker
And that's my happy place, right? So bringing that all together has been a real joy for me, but it was not my life's design. It wasn't this master plan. It was just kind of an evolution.
00:04:56
Speaker
I love that design for humans.
People-Centered Consulting Services
00:04:59
Speaker
And I think I want to come back to that idea because i want to eventually get to talk about technology. And that's, I think, a big part today, right, of h r all the different things that we do to help inspire our teams or, um, you know, motivate our teams also measure our teams and performance and things like that. And some of these systems that are so popular, don't always feel like they're designed for humans.
00:05:32
Speaker
Um, before we get there, tell me about the services that you provide. So I, I play in a couple of different spaces. So in my business, I,
00:05:44
Speaker
do a lot of change advising and education. So what that looks like is working usually with executive teams to help them think differently about what people need in times of change and growth.
00:05:56
Speaker
So some of that's building the muscle and I use neuroscience to support that. So why do people need certain things and how can you create those conditions? And then I work with people leadership teams kind of through an organization to continue to build that muscle.
00:06:12
Speaker
and That's usually some education and then some ongoing advising to help them integrate the things we've talked about. um I also do organization design consulting, and that's still people centered, but it's how do you design your organization to support your growth?
00:06:29
Speaker
There's a lot involved in that. Technology is a piece of that, but there's a lot of people practices, compensation, how we reward people. um All of the things that you're doing really involve people in systems. So it's making sure all of those things point to your strategy.
00:06:45
Speaker
So those are my two main spaces. Are there overlaps between a lot of the things that you do and that you teach and you consult on and for example, like EOS?
00:06:58
Speaker
I would say um i actually i know a lot of EOS people because sometimes they'll identify a gap and there is a need to bridge that gap through org design. But maybe that implementer is not diving that deep so they can. For example, I had a client where they recognized that their president was the only person who could sit in the sales accountability seat.
00:07:21
Speaker
But that wasn't his space. But there was no one else identified that could be there. And so in that case, I came in to help them think through the org design of how their sales vertical.
00:07:32
Speaker
How should they build this? How should they scope that role and make sure that they were positioned to support their go-to-market? So there's things like that where EOS was the starting point.
00:07:43
Speaker
That company said, we need to have great systems to govern how we operate, to help guide us. But that uncovers some things that are missing, right? There's always some gaps that you find, and I help to bridge the gaps.
00:07:58
Speaker
So I would say that's, but that could be any operating system, right? EOS is one of of many approaches, but I think that that's a great place for people to start is looking at how are we integrating all of the things it takes to run this.
00:08:11
Speaker
Yeah. So ah tell me about your
Overcoming Change Fatigue
00:08:14
Speaker
customers. You don't have to tell me exactly who they are, but give me a picture of of the the customer. what What makes them come to SDM?
00:08:22
Speaker
Are there problems that you're obsessed with solving for for them specifically? and ah Aside then, obviously, from the services that you do, but you know some some real, i guess, real world examples.
00:08:35
Speaker
I would say... um If people are coming to me for help with change, they've usually heard me speak somewhere. That's kind of the most frequent thing. And they're feeling the pain of change, fatigue, burnout, disengagement.
00:08:48
Speaker
They're trying to do big things, but they have a reluctant workforce. And it's it's not that people don't care, but sometimes they're just weary. Sometimes it feels like things are happening to them and not with them.
00:09:01
Speaker
And that's the piece I help people um turn around. So if anyone relates to that, that's my space. That's how what I help people with. You know, I think it just in normal, well, maybe it doesn't have to be normal, but, you know, it's a growing pain, I think, that a lot of organizations find themselves in.
00:09:22
Speaker
um Are there things that you see the leaders that you work with just getting wrong time and time again or that they're blissfully unaware of?
00:09:34
Speaker
I think most often what I see, i mean, almost everything related to change and growth comes down to communication. And there's a lot of really beautiful communication plans that are almost completely one way.
00:09:48
Speaker
So that's like the cascading communication through a company. You can be saying, yeah, top down, one way communication. That is more efficient. You can mass market solution that, right? You can say, we're going to have a big call and an email blast and all of these things.
00:10:03
Speaker
But what people are often missing is a two-way channel. And when people are going through change and growth, they have our brains desire autonomy. We want our fingerprints on it.
00:10:15
Speaker
And so if you're in a one-way conversation, it it's not really even a conversation. It's a monologue, right? And that doesn't feel good to anyone. No.
00:10:26
Speaker
Unless you're at the theater and that you expect it, right? So in the workplace, you want it to be two-way, even if you don't know how to articulate that without it, something's missing. And that creates uneasiness in the workforce.
00:10:38
Speaker
So I'd say that's the thing most often that I feel is missing.
Identifying Root Problems
00:10:41
Speaker
when When they come to you, obviously they have a million questions. um the Do you feel like they're asking the right ones? You know, inevitably, a lot of this comes down to to people, to communication,
00:10:56
Speaker
I would imagine a lot of them are coming with problems relating to other things and maybe missing the the point that many of them are people problems. And there are different ways to solve these that maybe they're not quite focused on. Do you see that as being common?
00:11:12
Speaker
Yeah, I think that often there is there's kind of a lot of pointing fingers. There's a lot of trying to attribute the problem to something. It's often a symptom of the problem.
00:11:23
Speaker
And I think that happens with consulting in general. There's pain that you maybe feel or see and you you think you know why, but you haven't looked under the hood or really understood the root cause. So I think that happens on an awful lot with org design.
00:11:37
Speaker
You think this just isn't working. It must be that we have the wrong technology. It must be that we have the wrong system or the wrong people. That's often not really what it is. um Or maybe that's a part of what it is, but it's not the whole story.
00:11:50
Speaker
I see that an awful lot um with change too, but especially when I'm doing org design, looking at a lot of different systems. you know Given this approach, this people-centered approach, you know what would you suggest that organizations and leaders do like to begin trying to put their people first? like How do they start?
00:12:14
Speaker
I think there's so many things you can do, but I try to help people focus on this idea of connection. So um there's three different types of connection that you can nurture that help people want to grow with you.
00:12:30
Speaker
And so one of those is intellectual connection. So it is it's that whole idea. I understand what's happening. and I know how I relate to it. Just rationally, logically, I get it.
00:12:41
Speaker
And I know what to focus on. That's one piece, but also having an emotional connection. So that motivation and belief, I believe in the good of where we're going. That's a big piece of connection that people need that they're often missing.
00:12:56
Speaker
And then they also need relational connection. That is, are is it safe to grow with people here? Is it safe to navigate this hard thing with others around me? And you could get there in a lot of different ways. But if people are missing those types of connection, you're going to see gaps and it's going to be hard to do the things you you need to do to grow.
00:13:16
Speaker
So it's two-way key communication runs through all of that, right? So it's foundational, but nurturing those connections is is going to be the starting point. You know, it kind of leads me to a tangent and I'm curious.
00:13:31
Speaker
they In a lot of organizations, you have... you know, members that don't interact with each other. You might have leadership that's one or two levels removed from, you know, um some of their, some team members.
00:13:47
Speaker
What, you know, what do you say about that emotional connection between them if they don't even interact with each other ever? Is that, is that part required between those groups of people who are so far removed from each other?
00:14:02
Speaker
Not necessarily through all the layers. so And it's hard to achieve that as you scale and you grow, right? You've got a lot more people, a lot more layers. What people need is connection with those who work most closely with them.
00:14:15
Speaker
So the leaders around them, the peers around them, the partners closest to them. you want It's that idea of having a trusted circle of people. And that is often missing. When you think about top-down communication, you might be hearing from a CEO, a COO, a president, somebody that might feel too distant.
00:14:34
Speaker
It's hard to trust that distant voice. It doesn't mean you don't respect it. But to really trust it, it's hard. So when you're architecting a change experience, it's always thinking through, how do I make sure the people closest to the work are have are surrounded by people that are trusted voices.
00:14:55
Speaker
It doesn't mean all those people have to have all the answers, but making sure they have the ability to to talk through the hard things and the realities yeah and to provide clarity when there's no certainty. Because we almost never have certainty.
00:15:10
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. That's
Symptoms of Poor Leadership
00:15:12
Speaker
definitely a challenge. So when when when leaders don't you know nail it with their people, when they're trying to achieve this growth,
00:15:22
Speaker
what are What are the consequences you see? Or like, at least what are the symptoms?
00:15:27
Speaker
I think it's some of the the pain I talked about at the beginning, and you start to see disengagement, um kind of angst, fatigue, weariness. So you'll just see it taking a toll. um You also see retention issues where people aren just aren't willing to go the distance with you.
00:15:45
Speaker
And sometimes that's just because they see it see it happening and poorly again and again and again and again. And there's this desire to go find something that they feel better about.
00:15:57
Speaker
um I think what people see is change done out of duty and compliance. And that's that I have to do this or I should do this. And we want people to do so things based on desire.
00:16:11
Speaker
I believe in the good of what we're trying to do. And that doesn't mean you have to love it all. It just means I believe it's worthwhile and I'm willing to be a part of that. That's the piece that's often missing. So you get duty and compliance, which you can run on that for a while, but it's not going to keep people with you for the long haul.
00:16:28
Speaker
Is that easy for you to spot? Definitely. i think it's easy for for people to self-identify. Because, I mean, when you think about the things we're committed to in life, we can all point to things that we do out of duty or compliance.
00:16:44
Speaker
It could be how we parent. It could be how we show up at work. It could be how we interact with a partner or spouse. um I should or I have to do this thing. um But it makes a complete difference when you see an employee doing a thing because they believe it's worthwhile.
00:17:03
Speaker
They can push through really hard things if they know it's worth it. Yeah, yeah. ah I think it's it is pretty common to find a lot of leaders, you know, solution jump to try and address a lot of problems, you know, but often maybe fail to find that root cause, which is probably why they're jumping from solution to solution.
00:17:25
Speaker
um I'm curious if you see folks, you know, trying to remedy remedy these symptoms the wrong way, you know, How do you often see you know business leaders trying to fix things in a way that might not be productive or that's counterproductive? Do they often attribute these to issues to like incorrect sources or you know do they wind up exacerbating the problems?
00:17:54
Speaker
I think often they'll try to kind of dangle carrots, rewards, things like that um to to keep people with them or to motivate people. but it might be encouraging the wrong behaviors.
00:18:06
Speaker
um Sometimes we we design rewards and compensation systems that look really attractive, but are really encouraging people to do the thing we don't want them to do. And we don't we don't understand that. And that that happens a lot in sales.
00:18:23
Speaker
If you've worked with sales teams or kind of been in that arena, we could be saying, we want you to be collaborative. We want to be kind of bring our whole team to the client and but maybe you're awarding individual behavior that has competing agendas.
00:18:38
Speaker
So those, those people don't know where to put their focus. And so they're going to lean into what gets them paid. And that's not out of selfishness. That's strategic, right? They're thinking, where should my effort go? What really is going to help me, you know, bring home the income that I need for my family.
00:18:56
Speaker
It's not cold hearted, but they're leaning into what's being reported. And that happens an awful lot. So I would say ah mismatch there. um There's so many other things where people might thrive. and You talked about solution jumping. They might try and throw a solution, throw something at the ball because they're like, everyone else is doing it.
00:19:17
Speaker
yeah Or we're a mess. If we just implement this technology, it's going to fix it. And we know that doesn't always work yeah because you have to be understanding the problem first before you try to solve it.
00:19:31
Speaker
you know you You talked about rewarding behaviors, and and sometimes it can be counterproductive. you know I don't recall statistics you know at the moment, but you know I know workplace happiness, employee engagement, staff retention, and so on, they're all positively impacted when team members are asked for feedback you know and gained a sense of ownership over the workplace.
00:19:52
Speaker
Is that something that you
Effective Problem-Solving
00:19:54
Speaker
see? And and maybe more importantly, like, When trying to solve, I think, some of these people problems or at least diagnose them, are the right people involved in these conversations all the time?
00:20:06
Speaker
Or are the wrong people trying to solve these or the ones that actually don't have the power to move the needle? Should more team members be made to feel like stakeholders? I know lot of questions. I'll let you run with that.
00:20:19
Speaker
run with that Sure. um I would say often if we're looking at things like engagement, retention, culture, all of that, there are some kind of ideas and behind closed doors. There's always going to be senior leaders, executives, people that are decision makers that are trying to figure out how to we address this.
00:20:40
Speaker
And that's a good place to start. You do need to kind of rally around what matters and what's the consequence if we don't focus on this. Right. So there's some of that early stage stuff that should happen behind closed doors.
00:20:52
Speaker
But then it should be how do we make sure we understand this kind of from a ah root cause issue or the people closest to the work? So for example, if you've got engagement results and they're telling you that people feel like they don't have a voice in decision-making, right?
00:21:08
Speaker
Decisions are made. I don't feel like I have input or something similar to that sentiment. You have an idea that this is maybe an area that needs to be addressed, but you don't know what's really behind it and you don't know at what which level it's happening.
00:21:22
Speaker
So that's where you have to kind of dig deeper and talk to people closer to the work. And that often gets missed. we We don't often do that layer of discovery.
00:21:33
Speaker
And so we just come out with some really fancy action plan and people are like, that's not mine, right? That's a check the box activity. Yeah.
00:21:44
Speaker
Yeah. And i I guess I can see why to some degree, you know, the, the, the effort, right. To diagnose isn't, doesn't go that deep, right. Because a lot of times there might be organizations where they're, they simply don't put decision-making power in the hands of some of those layers of, of, you know, employees. and um and so they're not even pulled when the reality is, you know, they might be pulling, you know, a disproportionate amount of weight and maybe they should be.
00:22:16
Speaker
um Yeah. Well, and I think. At least in that conversation. Yeah. I think with that too, it's sometimes it's the, there's a, maybe a fear of pushing down decisions or everyone gets a vote kind of that, you know, being afraid of setting a precedent for something like that. So it can be helpful to think about, can we pull together a focus group or a sampling of people, a representative group of people that can help weigh in to help guide our decisions and Yeah.
00:22:45
Speaker
I think that input is good, right? Input is great. It helps inform decisions. Obviously, there's an argument against things being too democratic. Yeah.
00:22:57
Speaker
I think that you definitely, it you could be kind of that everyone gets a vote or that we need to have consensus. I think often you you can't, but you can say, we end were it's kind of like getting user feedback.
00:23:10
Speaker
Yeah. When you're thinking about technology, right? You want to know how does it feel to experience this? yeah And what can we learn from that? And how can that inform the things that we are choosing to do, the decisions that are made?
00:23:22
Speaker
And sometimes you can't take everything, right? You can say, that's a good idea. it doesn't work in this setting and here's why. But it informs maybe the way we're thinking about it. There's always the root of something good that you can build from, even if you can't do it exactly as it's been prescribed.
00:23:39
Speaker
How else can can can leaders engage their team and give them a greater sense
Metrics of Leadership
00:23:43
Speaker
of ownership? you know What are the things that you would often suggest for your clients to enhance their employee experience or to to build or reinforce a people-centric culture?
00:23:54
Speaker
I would say I'll kind of go back to that idea of autonomy and people's fingerprints being on things. um We often give people, this is what we're trying to achieve. So kind of the big picture outcome or the objective, the goal.
00:24:06
Speaker
but we don't necessarily need to prescribe how they do it. There might be guidelines. Here are the parameters. But within that, what do you think we could do to get to this next level or to improve this process?
00:24:20
Speaker
So I would say where you can create some freedom for people to be creative, to co-create with you, that's often in the how things are done. Even small bits of that make a huge difference for people.
00:24:33
Speaker
Cause it feels like they own the thing that's happening and it's not just happening to them. Which would kind of lead me then to wonder, so you're working with a company when they're doing it right, right. When it comes to their people centered, centered leadership, what does that look like? What are the signs for leaders to know that the how is working?
00:24:56
Speaker
Are there, are there metrics that you should monitor? I think some of that you can see through engagement survey results, kind of what people are able to do, how much they trust their leaders, how collaborative things are. And that might be where you can get some quantitative data, right? You can see some numbers and you can see lift or kind of a decrease.
00:25:18
Speaker
But I think some of that is it's through understanding. it's It's seeing how things work in sync. So it is more qualitative. It's observing. It's talking to people. It's understanding how do things happen here.
00:25:30
Speaker
And that's when you see trust, you see people able to work through conflict. You see decisions that are big able to be made without being escalated up to the top of the house, right?
00:25:42
Speaker
yeah that is that doesn't happen everywhere. I know sometimes that there are just hierarchical things that prevent that. But when you start to see this co-creation of experiences and outcomes, that's a sign of health because it takes a lot of trust to do that.
00:26:00
Speaker
You know, I've always been, i've always been wary of surveys, you know, obviously when, when, when we're answering surveys, if we're, if we're at work, um, you know, we, we want to be perceived in the best possible light, uh, maybe we don't have a lot of time and we want to get through it as quickly as possible.
00:26:20
Speaker
Um, you know, how much confidence do we put into what we're getting back, uh, in surveys like that? Um, part two of this sort of thought, you know, when it when it comes to the data around the people and the team engagement and the happiness and the culture, do you think that organizations are monitoring the right things? What things would you tell them to actually look at that they can actually measure?
00:26:48
Speaker
And those are kind of big questions. So I'll say the survey, um where do I start? Surveys in general, I think are theyre They give us a good lens and to just perception.
00:27:01
Speaker
It doesn't give us like the deep dive. It just says, this is how people are feeling, but you don't know why. You don't know unless they've put, you know written a paragraph comment or like giving you a lot of meat to work with.
00:27:13
Speaker
But I think that they're a good place to start because they say this is a perception. It doesn't mean it's based on fact. it It's just how people are feeling. And that's important to understand because it tells you where you need to dig deeper.
00:27:26
Speaker
or where things are going well, but it's just a data point. It's never going to give you all the context that you need. So I think you have to think through how else can we understand this? So for example, I've worked with leaders and they've, sometimes leaders will think they're amazing and everybody loves them and they'll get back a result that says they're be they're not a good listener, right? Or something like that.
00:27:49
Speaker
And they're like, I don't understand this. And they might want to throw out the result and say, that's not valid. My people love me. Yeah. But a survey can help you to say there's a disconnect.
00:28:00
Speaker
It's not a judgment on your intention. It's not necessarily based on fact, but it tells you that there's a disconnect for between how you perceive yourself and how things are received by your team.
00:28:13
Speaker
we want to We want to understand that gap and bridge it.
00:28:18
Speaker
you I'm curious, ah how can leaders get better with this? Are there tools and platforms that can be beneficial here? Um, you might be a little bit more of an expert on that than I am. I would say a lot of it is through it's being transparent about the thing you're trying to get better at.
00:28:37
Speaker
I understand that it's kind of the idea. I understand that the listening that you want to be listened to and heard more, and it doesn't feel like that. I'm trying to work on this. Here's what I'm doing. And it's inviting that feedback, right?
00:28:50
Speaker
So some of that is leader to team. It's being transparent about the thing. um I think that you can also have um other people kind of check in 360s. You can get a ah pulse check.
00:29:02
Speaker
Those again are kind of tools and measures. um I think that a lot of it is really through the conversations that you have, though, that you know things are landing well with your team.
00:29:14
Speaker
But um there's probably I think there's whole consultancies and tools designed around helping to measure culture. I think we just have to think about, and this is kind of part two of your previous question, the how do you measure culture?
00:29:28
Speaker
I think that you have to think about what you're how you're defining culture in the first place. um Because culture could be aspirational. Here's how who we as a company say we are.
00:29:41
Speaker
And this is what it's like to work here. But there's also kind of the authentic culture. This is what really happens. yeah And those can be very different. And then even at the team level, you can have a subculture.
00:29:54
Speaker
But this is what happens in IT. t Right. you know You have all of these different things. So having one measure for culture sometimes isn't going to give you a true reflection.
00:30:05
Speaker
So there has to be some qualitative understanding. It can't all be numbers. It can't all be numbers. and And there is going to be a different dynamic you know based on your...
00:30:18
Speaker
the team makeup and your location or, you know, variety of other factors that kind of go into it. Those, so the, the, the concept of subculture, i think about a lot when it comes to larger organizations.
Role of Technology in Design
00:30:30
Speaker
um Curious about, about the tech thing, you know, and, and how it's sort of changing, evolving, you know, Do you see it you know playing a role in your own work, you know changing and evolving? Will your clients need something different, the workforce, any trends you know or predictions there?
00:30:50
Speaker
i would say a lot deeper understanding of ai um is That's important to all of my clients. And there's some that are kind of on you all ends of the spectrum. People are leaning really into it.
00:31:02
Speaker
but Some people are like dabbling and some people are fearful. It's everywhere. um But I think it understanding how to use it well tough to optimize the work that you're doing, not to replace it.
00:31:14
Speaker
So that's a piece of it. But it's also understanding, do we have tools where that there's an AI component that can help us to think different? So that's one piece. But I think because I work with a lot of smaller companies, small to midsize is mostly where I'm at.
00:31:30
Speaker
A lot of people have the wrong technology to try and do the thing they're doing. And they don't know what they don't know. And i think the need to understand, kind of to identify what are the needs, what are the things we're trying to solve for and understand so we can select the right tech stack for that, right? yeah So we have the right mix of tools to get us there.
00:31:55
Speaker
That piece is often missing because when you're small, you're just grabbing the thing you need, right? Right. right I need a scheduling tool. I need something for payroll. I need something for benefits.
00:32:06
Speaker
And you've got this big pile of things that sometimes aren't designed to fit together and they create more complexity. So I think it's not necessarily the technology, but it's understanding how do I choose the right things for my growth stage?
00:32:22
Speaker
Is that a big part of the consulting that you do? I mean, in in organizational design and that people, you know, the the the design for humans, right? um Like we talked about before, is this a big part of what you do when you work with leaders to help, you know, better design that organization, ah looking to their tech stack and seeing how everything's working together and making recommendations ah for what fits better?
00:32:50
Speaker
To a point, but I would say at some point I lean into experts because this is not my air area of expertise. So because in org design, you look at systems, you're often asking questions.
00:33:01
Speaker
You're asking questions about the user experience. kind of What does it feel like to work here, to navigate processes, to navigate systems? so You're trying to get a sense for, is it seamless? Is it clunky?
00:33:12
Speaker
Like what's hard? And i i through that process, often understand that there are some serious tech issues, things that are making it a lot harder to do the work and to work with other people.
00:33:26
Speaker
So I will make recommendations around that. Or it might be ways to optimize the systems they're using. But oftentimes that means bringing in a partner to say, at this stage, if you're ah in agreement that this is a place we need to prioritize, we need to bring in a partner to help guide us.
00:33:44
Speaker
because I have limited experience with technologies, right? But I can identify the gap and gain some alignment around addressing it. Yeah, interesting.
Curiosity and Leadership
00:33:54
Speaker
So looking towards the the future, i mean, do you see people-related insight or people-centric skill, competency that you know tomorrow's leaders will have to develop in order to to thrive?
00:34:11
Speaker
Possibly more than one of these things that Maybe today or yesterday's leaders didn't. I don't know that they're new, but I would say curiosity is something that I think its people need to practice more.
00:34:26
Speaker
So, cause a lot of times leaders don't, they don't lean into that. They're maybe giving answers and directing and doing a lot more of that and not doing as much listening and asking.
00:34:39
Speaker
So I would say if somebody is looking to kind of lead in the future or trying to position themselves, it's understanding kind of how do i ask the right questions to involve people and to understand context.
00:34:50
Speaker
And part of that is critical thinking, which is kind of the second thing I'd say. I think that's important just in general in the world. But it's this idea that context matters, right? That you have to be able to ask the right questions to understand the issue before you start trying to solve for it or addressing it.
00:35:09
Speaker
So those two pieces stand out to me quite a bit for like just critical leadership pieces that sometimes are missing. You, you, you mentioned ah being, you know, leading with curiosity, um which I think directly impacts that, you know, one of those three points you mentioned that, that emotional relatability.
00:35:31
Speaker
um if you're talking to people, whether they're your superiors or subordinates, you know, whether they're just your, your, your team members um in any capacity, asking questions and just trying to learn more, i think, and understand um positions you, I think very well in terms of relationship building.
00:35:53
Speaker
Yeah. And I think sometimes um we can make a lot of assumptions around how people ended up where they are to how they came to a conclusion or why they did a thing. We often don't understand what's behind it.
00:36:04
Speaker
So there have been times where I've seen a behavior that made no sense to me. if i If I were to like logically think it through, I'm like, how in the world did they end up there? But when you ask the question and you just say, talk about your thought process, kind of how did you work through this?
00:36:20
Speaker
And that I can understand sometimes people are making decisions based on old old maps of what was expected in the past or allowed in the past. So they might be playing it safe. They might be self-protecting.
00:36:32
Speaker
They might have a whole different idea of what the priorities are. You never know what it is. But when you start asking the question, you can see, oh, here's where we're aligned. Or maybe it's okay that they're thinking differently.
00:36:43
Speaker
Or maybe we are maybe there's something that's off track and I need to help bring us back. Yeah. Being able to identify where those lines don't connect. Yeah. I'll often ask my six-year-old these questions and and and find a mind mapping that is all over the place where nothing nothing connects.
00:37:04
Speaker
At least in my mind, it doesn't connect and hers it does. yeah But no, that's ah that's that a good example. And I think it happens a lot, right? Because if there is miscommunication anywhere along the way, right, um where there's that divergence, right? And understanding, I think, is going to lead somebody but somebody potentially down a path that's far disconnected from anyone else. And unless you know exactly where that is, you'll have no idea how they got there.
00:37:33
Speaker
Well, and I think some people also, they they create it out of necessity because maybe they haven't been given and enough information to help them know where to focus.
00:37:44
Speaker
And in the absence of certainty or clarity, our brain starts to create it. Because the brain reads it as an error message that needs to be resolved. So if I don't know what to do, I'm going to like make up my own narrative, my own story, and I'm going to fill in the gaps with speculation.
00:38:02
Speaker
And I might land in a completely different place than where I should be. But it's kind of a survival mechanism. Our brain is trying to make right what doesn't feel complete.
00:38:13
Speaker
And then we end up landing in a place that people don't understand.
00:38:17
Speaker
so If an entrepreneur asks you for you know your single most important piece of advice about what they can do better as a leader, right? you have You're in an elevator with them and you have just that amount of time until they get to the top and they want to know what they can do better when it comes to their people.
00:38:37
Speaker
What do you say when you just have that minute? I would focus in on how important relationship and connection are. that it's it's good for people to understand kind of the big picture of what we're trying to do as a company. But if they can't connect to it and to each other, you're going limit your potential.
00:38:58
Speaker
So if you're going to put your energy anywhere, it's on building connections between ideas and people. Between ideas and people. That's great.
00:39:09
Speaker
That and actually needs to be on a meme somewhere. Yeah. Awesome. Summer, thank you. Thank you. This is great. I appreciate you joining me today. I'm grateful to have you here.
00:39:20
Speaker
Well, this has been great. It's a lot of fun to nerd out on all of this with somebody who's like-minded and in the same space. Yep. that's And came from the same place too. Let's not forget our music roots.
00:39:31
Speaker
That's right. Also, big thanks to all of you for tuning into Mustard Hub Voices Behind the Build. Please like and share this episode. Subscribe so you don't miss the next one. And visit mustardhub.com to learn how we can help companies become the destination for workplace happiness and turn culture into a competitive edge.
00:39:50
Speaker
Until next time.