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Crafting Compensation that Connects with Sheila Williams
8 Plays10 days ago
Sheila Williams brings more than 30 years of HR leadership to the table, blending her love of numbers with a deep commitment to people. Now a senior compensation consultant at VisionLink, she shares her journey from corporate America to consulting, unpacking why compensation strategy is both an art and a science. Sheila and Curtis dig into the idea of “compensation chaos” — what happens when companies lack structure — and explore how customized incentive plans can create clarity and drive growth. Sheila emphasizes the importance of transparency, communication, and designing pay strategies that reflect culture as much as spreadsheets. For leaders trying to balance budgets with employee experience, this conversation is a masterclass in getting compensation right.
About Sheila:
Sheila is a seasoned HR leader with over 30 years of experience who transitioned from her role as Vice President of Human Resources to pursue her passion for mentoring and making an impact beyond corporate America. Her career spans diverse industries and organizations of various sizes. Her time in the C-suite adds a distinctive perspective to guide clients in developing HR and compensation strategies that drive competitive advantage, innovation, and sustainable growth.
Known for her candid communication style and dedication to mentorship, Sheila fosters strong client relationships and takes a personalized, hands-on approach to compensation design. She believes there is no one-size-fits-all solution when it comes to compensation—it is too important to get wrong - it must reflect the organization's unique culture and priorities to achieve long-term success.
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast and Guest
00:00:05
Speaker
Hello again, everyone. Welcome to Mustard Hub Voices, Behind the Build. In these fireside chats, I sit down with the people building, backing, and running better workplaces. I'm your host, Curtis Forbes.
00:00:17
Speaker
My guest today is Sheila Williams.
Transition to HR Consulting and Mentoring
00:00:20
Speaker
Sheila is a seasoned hr leader with over 30 years of experience who transitioned from her role as vice president of human resources to pursue her passion for mentoring and making an impact beyond corporate America.
00:00:35
Speaker
Her career spans diverse industries and organizations of various sizes. Her time in the C-suite adds a distinctive perspective to guide clients in developing HR and compensation strategies that drive competitive advantage, innovation, and sustainable growth.
00:00:53
Speaker
Known for her candid communication style and dedication to mentorship, Sheila fosters a strong client relationship. to and takes a personalized, hands-on approach to compensation design.
00:01:06
Speaker
She believes there's no one-size-fits-all solution when it comes to compensation. It's just too important to get wrong. It must reflect the organization's unique culture and priorities to achieve long-term success.
Journey to Compensation Expertise
00:01:20
Speaker
I'm happy to have you on Behind the Build, Sheila. Welcome. Thank you, Curtis. I appreciate you having me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. um That was a mouthful. And I love your candid communication style. And I'm excited to hear a whole lot about that.
00:01:36
Speaker
So you're an absolute expert in compensation. How did you land on that area of expertise? What did that journey look like?
00:01:52
Speaker
Wow, you're going ask me to go to the Wayback Machine, huh? way back. The way, way back machine. Well, I will tell you, I think kind of going back to my days of college, right? I really liked the numbers aspect of things and really thought accounting might be the spot for me. But I took my first ah compensation and benefit class. And I think the the connection between numbers and the ability to to work with people and work with humans and kind of figure out how that all interacts really kind of excited me.
00:02:23
Speaker
And then I think through various opportunities that I've had with a number of different companies, compensation and benefits was just always where I kind of gravitated towards. And it made sense to me because it was the great opportunity to be able to ah let people know about their compensation, their growth trajectory. Hey, if you come in, work hard, here's what the possibilities might look like. And here's how your compensation could grow from that.
00:02:47
Speaker
Um, been a part of a number of mergers and acquisitions as well, which again, you've got to get into the nitty gritty of, Hey, I'm merging two companies, philosophies, or comp structures together. And you've got to really dissect it and decide what's going to move the needle forward.
Role at VisionLink and Compensation Strategies
00:03:03
Speaker
Um, so yeah, I get jazzed up about that stuff. I, I kind of consider myself a, a nerd when it comes to those numbers, but that's what I like. You, uh, you know, that's you, you thought accounting might be the place, but, um, you know, you wanted that numbers plus that, that people side of things. And I guess, I guess accountants aren't always known as being people, people.
00:03:26
Speaker
Some of them are, but I would agree. i think that you found i think that you found the right place. So now you are senior compensation consultant at VisionLink. So maybe you can tell us what is VisionLink? Tell me what does VisionLink do?
00:03:43
Speaker
Yeah. so So interestingly enough, when I decided to take the next journey into ah leaving corporate America, right, I started my own HR consultant company. And I realized that I really enjoy mentoring new HR talent. I really enjoyed having conversations with leaders and helping them be able to structure a job or structure a career path to really help their employees kind of take full advantage of um you know, the their engagement levels, getting them a succession plan, getting them prepped for what's next, right, to help grow the business.
00:04:16
Speaker
So when I was doing that, I came and was trying to help a client I had ah determine how to ah build an incentive plan, have been a part of incentive plans for a really long time, but just doing some research and came upon VisionLink.
00:04:31
Speaker
VisionLink is a compensation design firm that really does all things soup to nuts when it comes to compensation from base pay, short-term incentive opportunities, all the way into long-term or phantom equity options.
00:04:45
Speaker
So I i became ah yeah i had a number of conversations with the ah the president and CEO of VisionLink. And you know he said, Sheila, you bring a pretty unique skill set to our client base because a lot of our clients are privately held organizations that are looking to grow.
Holistic Compensation Design
00:05:04
Speaker
And in order to do that, they come apart upon a number of what we like to call compensation chaos decisions, right? I don't have a structure. I don't have a bonus plan. How do I incent the right behaviors? All of those things. but i So that's a core interest of mine. But then I also bring the HR strategy, given my background of being an HR leader.
00:05:26
Speaker
So I'm able to help our small business owners kind of think outside and expand their level of skill set and start to ask some of those hard questions.
00:05:36
Speaker
So I worked on a couple of projects and later Tom said, hey, how about you become a VisionLink employee? So as the story goes, that's history. And about five years now, I've been partnering or been working with VisionLink and partnering with our clients to kind of help bring them along when it comes to their compensation needs, as well as their HR needs and really being able to help.
00:06:01
Speaker
And again, coming back to one of the things I enjoy doing, mentoring um the next level of of talent and tackling some of those, um you know, those compensation headaches, if you will.
00:06:13
Speaker
I love that you described it as a design firm. I don't think that I have ever really heard that in this space. And it, it, it almost takes on a ah totally different um image in my, in my mind.
00:06:30
Speaker
couple questions out of that first one, did you get to design your own incentive plan?
00:06:38
Speaker
Oh, one would say yes.
00:06:42
Speaker
I couldn't help, I couldn't help but to ask that question. Yeah. but um But yeah, no, i I love how you describe it as a design firm. And I think that it almost takes on this more of a holistic image um because there's so many factors there's so many factors at play, I guess, right? And you're we're talking about an employee's experience that has, you know, you mentioned there's short-term things and there's ah long-term things and there's everyday things and there's once a month things. And, you know, oftentimes I think that we can get lost in
00:07:18
Speaker
um You know, a couple of the major items and forget what what what the whole picture looks like. Yeah. yeah and And thank you for pointing that out, because I would definitely agree. I mean, a lot of times our clients are like, you know what?
00:07:32
Speaker
I'm losing people for $2 an hour, but I'm paying 100% of the cost of their healthcare care coverage. And the conversation that I have with them is like, well, gosh, that's a lot more $2 an hour, right?
00:07:45
Speaker
And I'm like, are you telling your employees that question? Are you being transparent? And the leaders are like, well... I mentioned it and I'm like, well, you need to find a way to really highlight that. Because, again, I think a lot of times people think just about what's in their paycheck.
00:08:01
Speaker
Right. And or they're all they see. That's all they see. Right. But there are so many other things that go into it. Right. So I kind of. ah Try to pull that information out as I'm talking to business owners or leaders. I'm like, you know, what else? ah Promotional opportunities, career development, um training. A lot of our clients nowadays have the ability to work remote.
00:08:25
Speaker
Right. And it doesn't care where they don't care where you are as long as you're getting the work done. I'm like, that's a benefit. They're not having to you know put gas in their car to drive ah you know an hour commute. It turns into two hours a day. Those are all things that are those intangibles.
00:08:40
Speaker
um you know Your company culture, all of those things. So really trying to find a way for them to kind of highlight that and be a significant piece of their compensation philosophy.
Transparency in Compensation and Employee Satisfaction
00:08:53
Speaker
And being willing to share that information, not only with your existing employees, but also your prospective employees, because it's just as important to have alignment with those people that are coming in.
00:09:04
Speaker
I would imagine that a communication strategy probably winds up being a big part of it. Mm-hmm, 100%. And I will tell you that a lot of times when I say, you know we need to find a way for you to be transparent pair it with this, business owners are like,
00:09:20
Speaker
a yeah does that mean that I have to have a listing of everybody's pay and I need to say, this is how much John makes and Sheila makes and Sally makes? No, the answer is no, but you have to give them some indication of what compensation means for to the organization and what's in it for them. Hey, I'm going to come here. I'm going to give you my all each day, every day, but what am I going to get in return for that?
00:09:46
Speaker
And if the employees don't know what that looks like, or they don't know what their career path is, they're going to look up and they're going look out and they're going find it. And if it's not at your organization, they're going to find it somewhere.
00:09:59
Speaker
So I like to say, let's find a method that works for you, that is as transparent as you think you want to be. And let's stretch that. Let's try to continue to grow and continue to provide that information um to your employees.
00:10:15
Speaker
Yeah. I would imagine that, I mean, it especially with younger generation, I think it's super apparent, but you know on some level, um, we don't necessarily want our relationship with the employer to be purely transactional.
00:10:30
Speaker
And I think that, you know, when like you had just made the comment, right, we'd go in, i'm going to give you my all. I'm going to come here every day. I'm going to work for this organization, realizing somebody else's big dream and helping them get there.
00:10:42
Speaker
Right. um So it's more than than just my paycheck. um But if I don't see that it's more than just my paycheck, then all a sudden that relationship simply becomes very transactional.
00:10:56
Speaker
And you know we we oftentimes spend more time at work or with work than we do with our own families. And I don't think that we necessarily want to do that with a purely transactional relationship. 100% agree.
00:11:12
Speaker
um I'm curious to hear about the kinds of organizations that VisionLink works with. i mean, when when do organizations come to VisionLink? What are the problems and challenges these folks are obsessed or that you're obsessed with solving for them? i mean, you you you went into a sort of a brief cursory description. Give me some more detail.
00:11:34
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, you know, I would like to say a we're industry agnostic, right? So it doesn't matter whether you're in construction or high tech or nonprofit or an entrepreneurial organization that has five employees, or you're a manufacturing client that has over a thousand employees. We're able to help and run the gamut of all of that.
00:11:55
Speaker
The other thing I think that we're able to add value to is because we are diverse and because we are working with a number of different clients and industries and geographies, we have some pretty innovative ideas that we've seen work or not work elsewhere. And I always tell clients, I'm like, you know, you may think this is what you need. But as we start having a conversation, I may interject, oh, have you thought about this? Or have you done that? or what
Competitive Benchmarking and Employee Expectations
00:12:22
Speaker
does your turnover look like? or have you done an employee engagement survey or any of those sorts of things? and it really starts to get their their wheels turning.
00:12:31
Speaker
But coming back to your question, right? what What do clients kind of come to us with? I mean, we hear all kinds. And think one of the things we've termed internally is we hear a lot of ah clients come to us with what we call compensation chaos, right?
00:12:46
Speaker
They're like, you know, I've got this incentive bonus plan and I feel like it's just not helping me move the needle. It's not helping me grow the company or um I'm my turnover is too high or my employees are asking for raises every other day. They're coming in but with with Google searches or chat GPT searches to say I need to be making right or those sorts of things. And and usually they're coming in with a need, a specific kind of concern.
00:13:16
Speaker
And then as we start to peel the onion back, we're starting to find there's other issues or other things that they should be thinking about. So We're really that person who kind of looks over your shoulder and kind of says, hey, let's think holistically about this. And how can we help you build a cohesive compensation structure that one you feel proud of, right? Who doesn't want to say that they pay their employees a competitive wage and a benefit package and have their stuff together?
00:13:42
Speaker
um So we kind of help them create that. So they have that comfort level that they are are doing right by the employees who, like you said, are making it happen day in and day out. So I love that you went there.
00:13:55
Speaker
i But i I actually have a a i'll sort of dovetail off of this with some curiosity about the opposite happening. Do clients ever come in with compensation issues that they've not identified as compensation? as In other words, they ever come, you know, basically is is compensation the problem when they think it's actually something else?
00:14:21
Speaker
Uh, yes. Or... how do i how How do I put that mildly? ah Yeah. Or, you know what, they'll they'll come in, they're like, you know, i need a redesign of my short-term incentive plan, right? and And that that's their path. That's their trajectory. So then we start asking questions. We're like, well, you know, where are you? What is your pay mix? What is base pay versus variable pay? And have you benchmarked it? And they're like, well, no. And then we start talking about and we look at their data and they, let's say they have
00:14:55
Speaker
you know, 40 customer service representatives and they're paid, they're between minimum and the maximum, there's maybe a $40,000 spread and like, well, are they all doing customer service reps or, Do you have a ah career path in place? Right. Do do they know that if they're if they start at an entry level, that they have an opportunity to progress and to grow in the company and and that sort of thing?
00:15:17
Speaker
So, you know, it it's again, it's kind of peeling back that onion to to really find out what the root cause is and and ask those questions. um And, and sometimes, you know, what they think they need and what we're actually recommending, maybe two different things, or maybe they do need that. And there's all these other ancillary things that will also help them kind of create that, that comprehensive competitive package.
00:15:44
Speaker
You know, when it comes to the the workforce overall, not just, you know, not just individuals who might work for, you know, your customers, companies.
00:15:55
Speaker
Do you think that that people are generally satisfied with their compensation? Like, are people getting what they really want from their employers as a whole? Well, I think I'd be remiss in saying I don't know as if I've ever had a conversation with somebody that says they think they get paid fairly for their role, right? Everybody wants more, right? I mean, that's just human nature. But I think i think providing, um you know, I have a lot of clients who come to me, they're like, you know what, I want to pay competitive wages.
00:16:29
Speaker
And I'm like, okay, let's benchmark your jobs. Because Who doesn't want to stand up there and say confidently that I, my pay rates are competitive, right? Everybody wants to be able to say that.
00:16:40
Speaker
And a lot of times, What clients are saying and what's actually happening are two different things. Right. So I like to try to make sure that they feel comfortable when they say that, that we've got a path forward to kind of get them and in that position.
Next Generation Employment Desires
00:16:56
Speaker
um So, you know, again, I'm maybe this is just my my desire for the numbers or because I'm a numbers person. Right. I like to have data and i like to have facts so that we can speak from a place of knowledge rather than just a ah where we want to be. Right.
00:17:16
Speaker
Curious from your mind, like, what do you feel that this workforce wants when it comes to compensation and, you know, what we refer to as total rewards and and maybe you're the right person to explain to everybody, what do you, how do you define total rewards? Yeah.
00:17:39
Speaker
That's a great question because I often start that conversation with my clients in that very same way. I'm like, its if you were describing your total rewards package, what would you include? Right.
00:17:52
Speaker
And a lot of times clients will tell me, well, I have a base pay. i give them benefits. I try to give them a profit sharing or a bonus opportunity. And yeah, that's my package.
00:18:07
Speaker
Right. And I challenge them to think broader in that because like I said at the very beginning, right, there are things such as ah career progressions. I think kind of coming back to your earlier question about what the next generation of of employees are looking for, that's great. This is the job I'm doing today, but they want to know what's next.
00:18:29
Speaker
What's next? What does my future look like? What are what are my are my personal goals and aspirations of being a leader someday? Are they going to be... um Are they going to come to fruition at this organization? If I don't see that path forward or the culture or the benefit package is not what I'm looking for, I'm going to go looking for it.
00:18:49
Speaker
So I think it's important that ah business leaders also think about, you know, I think culture Trust and transparency. I mean, I think that's another important factor that this next generation is looking for.
00:19:05
Speaker
Don't just tell me this is what you're doing. They want to see that that's actually happening in in the day to day. um And, you know, the other thing, again, having been in in corporate America for a number of years,
00:19:17
Speaker
and and sat around boardroom tables saying, this is what we need to say. And then actions are not the same as what we say, right? Actions and words need to to so be connected.
00:19:30
Speaker
um People see through that. So I think the other thing is, I had one of my ah employees say one time, bad news doesn't get better with time. So let's be transparent.
00:19:44
Speaker
Let's just say it like it is. And, and, you know, there was a lot, there's a lot of truth to that because i think if you're not open with your employees and kind of share whatever it is, good, bad, or ugly, right? You're telling the truth.
00:19:56
Speaker
That is far less, in my opinion, damning than not saying anything and being silent because, the mind tracks that the employees play are going to be far worse than you just telling it like it is.
00:20:10
Speaker
So again, i know I get that that's easier said than done sometimes. um But it's those leaders in the organization that have to be be strong in those roles and and and be that open, honest and transparent um with whatever it happens to be.
Understanding Employee Needs
00:20:27
Speaker
um And I think that's that that speaks volumes. do you i mean Do you think that employers, do you think they know? Do you think they're really tapped into what what their employees really want and need when it comes to all this compensation stuff? I mean, regardless of whether or not they actually offer it,
00:20:44
Speaker
Do you think they just, they they they do generally have a good idea? You know, you mentioned the, the you know, the business or the the business leader that you might ask to them, what does total rewards mean? And there's some who I think maybe there's a gap between what they think should be included and what I think the in a broader context it could include.
00:21:05
Speaker
But as a whole, right, you so you talk to a lot of organizations and a lot of business leaders. um You know, where do you think that, you know, the majority fall on that spectrum? Yeah. I think more times than not, the the struggle is how do I balance?
00:21:23
Speaker
I mean, let's be honest. Compensation is one of the, and and however you want to frame that, one of the biggest expenses of an organization. People is generally the biggest cost center.
00:21:34
Speaker
Right. Exactly. and And I often tell clients, I'm like, you know, you probably have very aggressive you know How do I grow margin and how do i how do i reduce expenses? People have things in place to track and manage all of that.
00:21:48
Speaker
I'm not sure people always think about their people expenses in that same way, or people, I should say, I shouldn't say expenses, investment, right? Investing in your people, right? and and yeah and i Because I talked to so many people, I'm like, oh gosh, people are an expense. And I'm like, well you need to flip the the narrative. It should be an investment, right? So again, I still slip myself, but they're trying to figure out how to get their best return on investment, right? Let's be honest, right? Like you do with any other asset that you have from a business perspective.
00:22:22
Speaker
So how... what does that look like and and how can they maximize that? So I think the the business owners and the leaders that are really thinking about how can I maximize that, that's where we can help you add the most value from a consulting perspective, because we help you really think about all the tangible and intangible things that you have that are going to help you move the needle to attract employees, to retain employees, to engage employees and get them to that next step.
Career Pathways and Retention
00:22:53
Speaker
And I think one of the, I would call it the hottest topics right now with a lot of my clients is helping them build that career trajectory or that career path, because, you know,
00:23:07
Speaker
While we say that doesn't cost anything, i think it has a tremendous amount of value because and employees are now saying they care about me. They want me to grow and succeed in this company. And they've created a path. They're going to give me that opportunity.
00:23:23
Speaker
So they're investing in me. And that that sends, in my opinion, kind of the right message. yeah and it It may not be today mean anymore my paycheck, but they're thinking about it and they have a path forward.
00:23:37
Speaker
And I kind of, I'm really interested in where this was going because we talked a little about about communicating, right, with with your employees, you know, and and and maybe applicants or prospects that work with your organization.
00:23:49
Speaker
um
00:23:51
Speaker
You know, i it sounds like there's a ah lot of leaders out there who maybe don't understand how to be transparent and in what ways they can be, um you know, kind of like you described.
00:24:05
Speaker
So, If you were to offer some suggestions, like what does a good step look like to take right in order to be more transparent, in order to communicate these things? you know What can some of the business leaders do um you know when they're talking about some of these things with their employees, what they can expect around their compensation and benefits?
00:24:27
Speaker
Yep. So, you know, one of the things that we are really big at VisionLink on is is preparing a compensation philosophy statement. And it's usually a one page document that says, hey, these are all of the things we're going to take into account and what we consider compensation to be. And I encourage, you know, to go as nitty as, hey, we're going to.
00:24:49
Speaker
benchmark our jobs every other year or every year to make sure that we're competitive. That sends a message to somebody that says, hey, my my leadership team wants to make sure that they're paying competitive wages and they're going to they're going to check that every every other year. um i encourage clients to to put a stake in the ground and say, hey, you will be eligible for a salary increase or a merit increase.
00:25:09
Speaker
plan or a cost of living increase or whatever it is you want to call it every June, let's say, right? So that in um a new hire coming in knows that every June they have an opportunity to get a merit increase. Now, whether or not they do could be based on a number of factors, business conditions, ah their individual performance, but they at least have um An awareness of when that is. I can't tell you how many times business leaders have called in their life. I'm like, OK, so why are we talking today? And he's like, well, I just had the third person in the last month come knock on my door saying, when am I going to get a merit increase or a salary increase?
00:25:47
Speaker
And I'm like, well, did you tell them when they were going to get a merit increase? Well, no. I'm like, I'm scared that they're asking because if they've been with you for a year, i mean, most companies do everything on an annual basis.
00:25:59
Speaker
If they've been with you for a year and you haven't given them either a conversation about where they're at, they're going to be sitting there saying, gosh, am I not doing my job? Is something wrong?
00:26:10
Speaker
You know, I haven't gotten something. So, i something i yeah I'm curious though, in your mind, a lot of times when people hear, you know, you use words like eligible for opportunity to, and which is a great way to frame it.
00:26:32
Speaker
But also sometimes what's heard is i get a raise every year. Right. Right. And when that doesn't happen, some trust or you can erode or or you know you might you know there might there might be some some some some disgruntled employees. And um I'm curious, you know you talk about outlining some of these things. What does that look like, right?
00:26:58
Speaker
Do you find that that you'll see a lot of business leaders, HR leaders, explain to the employees or prospects that they are eligible for, you know, merit-based increases or opportunities for that without actually going into detail of what that is and then seeing ramifications afterwards that, um you know, they should have done that.
00:27:20
Speaker
Yeah. So, so I guess I'll, I'll, I'll temper my response by saying, yes, you need to let them know, right. What they're eligible for or what they have the opportunity to receive, but then that also needs to be continual communication.
Non-Monetary Retention Strategies
00:27:35
Speaker
So it's not a one done, right? So when you're presenting an offer, you need to tell somebody, Hey, this is, this is what the package looks like. So then in June, right. When they're eligible for that increase, you need to have that conversation that says, Hey,
00:27:50
Speaker
This year, due to business conditions, we're not going to be giving an increase. We're going to push that out to you know ah another six months to see if business conditions change. Or, hey, you want to know what? We've established a 3% merit budget that we're going to give to managers and leaders and ask them to to distribute it as they see fit based on individual performance.
00:28:15
Speaker
So you're following up, not only are you eligible, but also the positive or the negative of either giving one or not giving one with that information. So it, it's, yeah, coming back to my point, it's not a one and done. You need to continual continually find ways to be transparent and bring those conversations up.
00:28:36
Speaker
Yeah, I, so I love that. you know and And I'm curious, you know beyond the compensation, though, beyond the money and the benefits and and perks, what's important to keeping employees around?
00:28:52
Speaker
What are the other things in the total rewards package that we that you know that we haven't talked about? Yeah. so you know, kind of coming back to one of the things that I mentioned, one of the big projects that we're working with a lot of clients right now are ah the career pathing.
00:29:07
Speaker
Because again, I think that that shows that, you know, an employee who joins the company, there is a future. um i think that open, honest and transparent communication, be it business conditions, be it company performance, whatever that happens to be, continuing to keep those lines open,
00:29:26
Speaker
um You know, ah some of our clients are doing like skip level meetings. So, hey, it's the business owner with the direct frontline employee and opening up those lines of communication to know, hey, you don't have to go through your manager. I would prefer that. But those skip level meetings, you know, help you get a chance to, as a business owner, really understand, you know, what the employees are doing, what they're feeling, what they're seeing, what the questions that they have, and you're able to answer those.
00:29:53
Speaker
So those type of engaging town hall meetings where, you know, again, you can be not just the the face from the office, but you're actually one of them. and and And having those those frank dialogues are definitely important as well towards building that strong culture.
00:30:10
Speaker
I think that you know in those cases, um you know i would totally i would totally agree with that. My only caveat would be in a lot of those cases, the leader has to be willing to... There there has to be, when you're walking into that, a willingness to act.
00:30:25
Speaker
You're going to get lot of feedback. You're going to get a lot of...
00:30:33
Speaker
suggestions, recommendations, requests, feedback, and, and, and listening for the sake of listening, um, you know, can also erode some trust if there's not really that willingness to, to do something about, right. If there are problems or if there are issues, you know, the, the voices want to feel heard and seen.
00:30:54
Speaker
um so, you know, the, the, um, a Business leader walking into a a town hall, for example, just to be seen as simply performative, right? Unless there's actual that um that actual willingness to to do something with the information that you're getting.
00:31:10
Speaker
Yep, yep. And I 100% agree with what you're saying. And realistically... you can get a pretty good sense from a leader and having that conversation if that's something they're interested in. And I'm not going to say it's easy and not everybody not everybody wants to embrace that kind of change.
00:31:28
Speaker
But then I have to say, you know, where do you want to be as an organization, right? If you want to push the boundaries and continue to grow, You have to give yourself that, that I can do this mentality and and make it happen.
00:31:41
Speaker
Also kind of coming back, right. You know you made the comment about, um you know, just asking for the sake of asking or just being present for the sake of being present. I would 100% agree. You have to do something with the feedback that you're given, because if somebody gives you feedback or or you ask for their thoughts and you're going to choose to do nothing with that, that's probably far more damning than never asking the question to begin.
00:32:06
Speaker
true and it's It's yet another way to just silence, you know, those voices in your organization that you simply, that you really don't want to be silenced, you know? Right. um And it kind of brings me to another question, you talking about leadership traits, right? As we think about this world of work, you know, today in the near future, you know, what, what are some skills that you feel like leaders need to have in order to create and empowered and an engaged workforce, you know, are are there certain tools they need to be successful for, um you know, retaining a satisfied team?
00:32:43
Speaker
Yeah. So yeah. Where do I start with that? on episode number
Leadership Skills for Engagement
00:32:51
Speaker
two. Right, right. Here we are. Here we are again talking about that. No.
00:32:54
Speaker
um You know, I think from my perspective, um you know, having, been in many different industries and now working with with a number of different leaders. I think having having leaders who are skilled in communication, skilled in teamwork and collaboration is going to go far.
00:33:17
Speaker
and i And I say communication because you know everything nowadays is brief to the point. It needs to happen immediately. People are used to texting not having face-to-face dialogues.
00:33:30
Speaker
I think somebody who can just break down all of that and and and have that face-to-face, that interaction, that open, honest, and transparent talk, I think that's going to be key and pivotal. um The other thing, and and I believe they're starting to now teach this in schools, right, is that whole teamwork aspect, because you have to figure out how you can interact with people that you might not necessarily get along with outside, but you want to know what, and you don't have to go have beers with them or go on family vacations or no play sports, but you got to figure out how to get the work across the finish line. So teamwork and collaboration, I think are also two very important features.
00:34:10
Speaker
Um, I've often told my kids, I'm like, you don't need to like your teachers because you want to know what, I don't like all the people that I have an opportunity or, uh, uh, uh, that are on part of my team or even clients.
00:34:22
Speaker
That's okay. You got to find out a way to work with them and to, and to deliver the results. So I think from my perspective, I think those are three very key and pivotal. The rest of the things I think can be taught or learned, right? If you've got the right attitude towards those three things, I think you can can bring people together. You can bring, you know, resolution to, to a lot of what you have on your plates.
00:34:46
Speaker
How, how, how does a leader know if they're getting it right with their people, you know, or, or if they're not, if they're not frankly nailing it, right. What are the indicators where, where do they need to look to find this kind of valuable information?
00:35:00
Speaker
So it's probably taken many years of this, but I like to say everyone has a good gut, right? I mean, you know your teams and you know when something's off or when something's not right, or when you try to challenge them to think outside the box or to grow and to learn and you're met with, you know, just ho-hum.
00:35:21
Speaker
Those are some pretty clear signs that what you're doing is not kind of resonating with them. And, you know, sometimes people don't see the signs of, You know, people leaving early or shutting down or, you know, all those sorts of things they don't recognize. So I say keep your keep your eyes open to some of those things. You know, if people like you said earlier, if they stop asking questions or are not inquisitive or those are all additional things where you need to say as a leader, gosh, what am I not doing? And quite frankly, I think asking your employees, hey, what's working?
00:35:53
Speaker
What's not? What could I be better at? And being having that growth mindset to know that I'm not perfect. yeah And unless you tell me that I'm not doing something right, I'm not going to be able to change.
Adapting Compensation to Workforce Changes
00:36:06
Speaker
Again, with the willingness to act on the feedback you've been given. Right, right. Exactly. I mean, I may say to you, Curtis, I don't like black shirts. So please don't wear that black shirt again, right? or whatever the case may be. But if if I don't tell you that, you're never going to know. And every time you come up, show up to work with a black shirt on, going to be like, oh, God, I got to deal with him again, right?
00:36:27
Speaker
Right. I would do it for you. Okay. Okay. okay Do you feel like there's aspects of people dynamics that might change as the business landscape evolves over time?
00:36:42
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think, I think business is always changing. And I think if, if you as a leader are not, are not astute enough to realize that there may be things that you're doing that may need to change in order to um I don't know, generate a new level of excitement from a, from a employee group.
00:37:02
Speaker
Yeah. That's shame on you for not being, you know, open enough to, to, to trying something new or doing something different. I mean, you're so one hundred percent agree that it it is always evolving. It is always changing. So how do you, how would you see compensation and, and, you know, what we refer to as total rewards and,
00:37:24
Speaker
evolving alongside the business world? Yeah, that's a that's like that's a great question. And you know one of the things that I always say, and again, you kind of read it at the very beginning, right? Compensation is too important to get wrong.
00:37:39
Speaker
And whatever message you send with compensation is a message. Sometimes that's a positive one. Sometimes that's a negative one. So you have to tread very lightly on all of those things. But I, you know, a lot of times clients will come in, they're like, you know what? I know my competitor across the street gives this type of a bonus plan. So they're successful. Therefore I need to do the same. And I'm like, oh, that's a copycat, right?
00:38:05
Speaker
Their compensation philosophy may be altogether different. Their go to market strategy may be different, all sorts of things. So be unique, be you, be create a compensation package and philosophy that's going to work for you, for your business, for your employees and going to drive value for you.
00:38:24
Speaker
Because that end of day, that's that that's important. i I hesitate when clients come in and they're like, well, I want exactly that. Well, that's disingenuous because you don't know what they did to get to that point. So i think, you know, kind of coming back, sometimes clients say, i want to ask my employees. I had one client who, when I did ah have those interviews, they wanted me to interview the C-suite all the way down to their entry-level employee.
00:38:53
Speaker
And they wanted me and there was just a handful. i think There was maybe 10 people that I interviewed, but they wanted feedback from each one of the levels. And when I met with the HR leader, he's like, Sheila, I want you to ask my frontline employees, hey, we are challenged with, do I give my employees a base wage increase or would you rather have ah better benefit package?
00:39:19
Speaker
I want you to gather that information for me because I want to use that in my decision making. So yeah again, ah very unique approach that may not work for every organization. So you got to understand kind of your employee group as well. But the majority of the employees all the way down to the bottom said, I'd rather have more pay because that's going to be able to put gas in my car, food on my table.
00:39:44
Speaker
Our benefit package is good. Don't get me wrong, but I'm pretty healthy. Yeah. I don't really use the benefits. Right. So everybody's going to have a different play on it. So in that particular case, you know, again, that's just that's an example of one particular client and how transparent they want it to be in the questions that they wanted to ask.
Mentoring and Industry Trends
00:40:05
Speaker
Also kind of highlights the fact that. Depending on the organization and the types of frontline workers, they might there might be you know very different life stage choices that can be hard two to answer with a one-size-fits-all package.
00:40:24
Speaker
um you know That might be a conversation for another day yeah you know how to how to do things like that, but that's a very real thing that we are having to deal with as as business leaders in today's workforce, right? Because you the...
00:40:40
Speaker
you know the kid just out of college with very little professional development, who's incredibly healthy. And then you have the 40 something who's got two little kids. Right. And then you have the, you know, maybe the older, the older person who's closing to close to retirement, you know? um So very, very very different.
00:41:01
Speaker
You're going to get very different answers from them. You are. So again, that kind of comes back to my point about every every organization is very unique and their circumstances. So there is no one size fits all. But I think it's important to understand your workforce dynamics and and and play to those when you can. Right. So to your to your entry level individuals who are could potentially still be on mom and dad's healthcare coverage, let's be honest, right?
00:41:29
Speaker
Insurance isn't important for them, right? So maybe you need to talk about career development and highlight career development for them and their 401k contributions that you're going to make regardless of whether or not they contribute because that's that's adding to their future wealth.
00:41:43
Speaker
You know, that the middle aged individual with two children, right? Maybe insurance is important to them and highlighting that package. um And how do you get from that role to middle management? Right. That might also be another aspiration. Right.
00:41:59
Speaker
And then at the at the higher end, right, if they're close to retirement, what can you do to help them um prepare for retirement? Maybe you talk about, you know, succession planning needs or how can they mentor the younger group so that they feel like they're giving back to their profession, their organization.
00:42:16
Speaker
So, you know, you have the ability to, if you think strategically about all those things, to do different things, to highlight your overarching package. Yeah. so that everybody feels like they're connected or have some, some opportunity in that.
00:42:31
Speaker
How do you see your own work evolving with all of these changes that will, that will go on over the next, you know, two, five, 10 years, 20.
00:42:41
Speaker
twenty ah Yeah. i hope to be not working in 20 years, but, but, you know, again, kind of one of the things that I guess fuels me or excites me every day is is getting to, you know,
00:42:54
Speaker
be a part of organizations and being a part of how do they message it to their employees and how can I mentor the next level of business leader, whether that be an ah HR or an operations or an entrepreneur, right? How can i help them kind of navigate through 30 years of what I've been a part of, um,
00:43:14
Speaker
But, you know, I think also i consider myself a lifelong learner, right? I always want to make sure that I'm staying up on the things that I'm doing, the procedures or the things that I'm recommending and just always being on that on that
Final Advice for Business Leaders
00:43:28
Speaker
edge. So um that's that's tough to do. But that gets me excited and gets me up every morning.
00:43:34
Speaker
You know, my my my final question to you, um um I'm curious if, you know, an entrepreneur, business leader, owner asks you for your your single most important piece of advice about managing people well, taking care of them or providing compensation packages, right? you're out You're on the elevator up to the top floor and they're about to walk out. What do you tell them before the door opens and you don't see them again?
00:44:00
Speaker
home You can't wait that long. The door's already open. I know, I know. The door's shut. Be quickly quick, be quick, Sheila. um You know, i I think I would say
00:44:15
Speaker
be transparent with them. um Know that they are more than just a number, their name. They bring... a whole host of history with them um and and really treat them as such, right? I mean, they're they're an asset, like we talked at the very beginning, right?
00:44:33
Speaker
They're an asset for your company. So you should know who they are, what they do for you, how they're contributing and recognize and reward that where you can. And, you know, it goes without saying a quick little email or a pick up the phone to say, hey, thanks for this.
00:44:50
Speaker
Thanks for staying until eight o'clock on a Friday night when I know you wanted to be home to go to your kids' baseball game. Thank you. That means a lot. And I think being able to actually say that and recognize that um is is extremely powerful. I will tell you, those leaders that I've worked for that do that, they hold a special place in my heart because I also have a whole host of individuals, leaders that I've worked for that didn't do that and just expected that that's what I was going to do. And that cuts very differently.
00:45:19
Speaker
Yeah, that's great advice. That's great advice. Thank you, Sheila. Thanks so much for joining me today. i truly appreciate all your insights. So glad to have you here. Fantastic. I appreciate the opportunity.
00:45:31
Speaker
Thank you all for tuning into the Mustard Hub Voices behind the build. Please like, share this episode, and be sure to subscribe while you're at it. Drop by mustardhub.com to learn how we help companies become destinations for workplace happiness and turn culture into a competitive edge.
00:45:50
Speaker
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