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Zech Dahms: Building Communities That Transform Workplaces
6 Plays1 month ago
Zech Dahms didn’t set out to become a culture strategist. Initially fascinated by zoology, his curiosity for human behavior eventually led him to organizational psychology—and to a career centered on transforming workplace experience. As President of Achieve Engagement and Head of Community at the EX Leadership Network, Zech helps HR leaders turn strategy into measurable impact. In this conversation with Curtis, Zech traces his journey from people officer roles to advisory work to leading a global HR community, sharing how intentional design—not chance—shapes employee experience. He explains how Achieve Engagement equips leaders with frameworks, peer-to-peer learning, and strategic playbooks that help organizations tackle performance and retention challenges. They also explore the power of community as a force multiplier for HR leaders, especially those operating solo or in lean teams. Zech’s insights show how culture, when intentionally cultivated, can unlock both individual growth and organizational transformation.
About Zech:
Zech Dahms is President of Achieve Engagement and Head of Community & EX Strategy for the EX Leadership Network, where he helps HR leaders turn employee experience into measurable business outcomes.He has designed and led 200+ programs and convenes 75+ annual masterclasses, webcasts, and Leadership EXchanges for a 30,000+ HR community. Zech’s work focuses on building AI-enabled, skills-based organizations, strategic employee listening, and performance cultures that scale. On stage and in advisory roles, he’s known for practical frameworks, peer-to-peer learning, and bold, actionable playbooks that move teams from strategy to execution.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome to today's Fireside Chat. It's time for another episode of Mustard Hub Voices Behind the Build. Here I sit down with the people building, backing, and running better workplaces. I'm your host, Curtis Forbes, and I'm thrilled to be speaking with today's guest, Zach Dahms.
Role and Focus at Achieve Engagement
00:00:23
Speaker
Zach is president of Achieve Engagement and head of community at EX Strategy for the EX Leadership Network, where he helps HR leaders Turn employee experience into measurable business outcomes.
00:00:37
Speaker
He's designed and led 200 plus programs and convened 75 plus annual masterclasses, webcasts and leadership exchanges for 30,000 plus.
00:00:48
Speaker
thousand plus at HR community. Zach's work focuses on building AI-enabled, skills-based organizations, strategic employee listening, and performance cultures that scale.
00:01:02
Speaker
On stage and in advisory roles, he's known for practical frameworks, peer-to-peer learning, and bold, actionable playbooks that move teams from strategy to execution.
Passion for Culture and Career Path
00:01:14
Speaker
Welcome to Behind the Build, Zach. Thanks so much for joining me today. Yeah, thank you so much. Really happy to be here and i appreciate the invite. Cool. you ah You're in Colorado, one of my favorite places. Hopefully you do a lot of outdoors stuff. um Sounds like those are some of ah some of your favorite things about Colorado too, yeah?
00:01:36
Speaker
Yeah, it's I mean, I grew up in the Midwest, small town in Wisconsin, so a lot of outdoor stuff there as well. But had to kick it up another level and get out here, out West in Colorado. And it's basically how I spend all of my time outside of the culture work that we're doing.
00:01:53
Speaker
You can you can take the man out of Wisconsin. but you can't take the Wisconsin out of the man. oh that is, think, lifelong. like said alone so Yeah.
00:02:07
Speaker
Once I get going, sometimes a little youper comes out of me too. Oh, how funny. So you're you're committed to culture, community, ah the employee experience.
00:02:19
Speaker
ah These are obviously all things that that I really, really, really, really readily get behind. But where did this passion come from?
Building Better Workplaces with Achieve Engagement
00:02:29
Speaker
Yeah, so I kind of stumbled into this passion at the end of maybe in college and into grad school. When I was actually originally growing up and going into college, I wanted to be a zoologist. I loved animals, learning about different types of animals in the classes and all these different things within that realm. And
00:02:53
Speaker
quickly learn that, you know, some of the things related to memorization and other aspects of learning all the kind of body types and animal types and all those different things is pretty difficult. But I don't know, I just kind of always had that passion for that side of things. And then I kind of realized I had that same passion for people.
00:03:12
Speaker
I took one of my first, you know, organizational psychology classes and then started falling into the kind of the black hole around that and sociology and worked in an operations role right away in college and that kind of exposed me to the first time of what culture was and i had a leader that also talked quite a bit about it so ah was very fortunate one to have fallen into some of these things and also having a organization and a leader that actually talked about it and this was
00:03:44
Speaker
You know, like 2010. um So pretty early before, I think like employee engagement,
Support for HR Leaders
00:03:50
Speaker
employee experience or culture became ah headline tagline for a lot of companies to think about.
00:03:56
Speaker
um And just kind of grew a passion from there and saw how powerful it was. And I think a lot of my passion for, you know, animals crossed over to people and ah became ah obsessive from that point. Yeah.
00:04:11
Speaker
It, it, it's funny that you said that it it is a tagline for a lot of folks, you know, and it's, it, it, I think a long time ago, there were, there were some organizations early on that just saw this as really that next step in, in evolution of business practice. Right. And then I think there's some folks who really even still to this, to this day, it's just, it's just words on a wall, but it doesn't necessarily permeate the the organization or and or even mean something to the people there. Right.
00:04:40
Speaker
Um, So i I like that you said that, and it's pretty incredible, the stuff that you do and the organizations that you work with and the reach that you have, um you know, to make that that meaningful output or impact.
00:04:52
Speaker
um So it bring kind of brings us to today. You're you're president of Achieve Engagement. what is What's the path that brought you to this role? love to hear more about you know Achieve Engagement as well and you know sort sort of how it's evolved over the last several years.
EX Leadership Network and Intentional Culture
00:05:11
Speaker
Yeah, so I've worked with Achieve Engagement now for about four years. Before that, I was internal facing in a people officer role.
00:05:22
Speaker
Then I went you know to the dark side and started doing more consulting advisory work and helping companies build ah their company of cultures as a culture strategist.
00:05:34
Speaker
And I did that more as a freelancer and solo entrepreneur for about five years on my own. And it was ah was a blast and had a lot of fun doing that. And at the same time, i was actively involved with a lot of different communities, both locally in the Milwaukee area where I was living at the time, but then also virtually as I was building my own kind of mark in this space and just growing and networking with other leaders who have a passion for this but this space.
00:06:04
Speaker
um Came into contact with some of the founders at Achieve Engagement and just developed a great relationship with them off the bat. I think overall our values and our vision to build a better world of work and help arm the leaders internally at these organizations with new perspectives, new frameworks, new strategies that then they could use to make an impact in whatever culture and company they serve, really excited me. So it actually started as more of a contractor role. So I was on board just to help with
00:06:37
Speaker
the community, the community experience, help bring some of these insights to the network, help bring in new voices and perspectives into our programs. um And that's where it started.
00:06:50
Speaker
And then, ah yeah, actually this year um in May is when I officially stepped into the role as president for the organization. But that really took like a year of discussions and alignment and vision setting and talking with the founders and the team on where we could take things. And also a lot of conversations about where our skill sets are. And, you know, if we were to align on putting one of the founders in more of this role and me in this role, that would capitalize on some of our skill sets.
00:07:20
Speaker
Yeah. And from there, we we kind of aligned on, OK, actually, this sounds great. And this seems very well aligned and we're all really excited about it. And um and it eventually led to the role. So ah I think what was really cool about that, which is a good lesson, I think I learned from a couple of my mentors, you know, lot of people who've made their way into bigger projects or bigger roles or things that they wanted to be a part of.
00:07:47
Speaker
you know I kind of saw this ongoing theme that they actively like asserted themselves into those opportunities. you know They weren't necessarily always waiting for it just to fall in their lap. And so I kind of followed that path from a lot of these leaders of like, okay, if this is...
00:08:03
Speaker
an area I feel like I can provide an impact and it's aligned with my passions and own personal purpose and things like that.
Challenges in Culture Change
00:08:11
Speaker
um How can I assert myself into this as a way to kind of keep growing my own career, but also make an impact in the organization that I'm working with?
00:08:20
Speaker
I love that. um I think that that's great. i'm I'm curious. So it may be helpful to provide Let's provide a little context to the audience before we of go further. What is Achieve Engagement? What does Achieve exactly? Yeah.
00:08:37
Speaker
exactly So Achieve Engagement is a global ah HR people leader community. And we design all these different types of learning experiences, programs, and and design different types of toolkits to help arm this community with new ways of thinking, new ways to approach the world of work and build and achieve engagement.
00:09:03
Speaker
So we do that through masterclasses, mastermind style programs. We do webinars on all sorts of different topics related to the world of work and culture and and people, ah seminars. We do leadership exchanges in different cities around the U.S. where we bring our community together in person and really unpack these things together. And it's all about arming and serving HR leaders and people leaders with the network that can help them succeed, but also the tools, the strategies, and the things that can sharpen their craft or sharpen their strategies to make an impact on the workplace that they serve and that they work within.
00:09:46
Speaker
I really love that. um I really love that. and And I just obviously because of the intersection of what we do, but um but just all obviously how impactful that is. So who who turns to achieve engagement? Right. What kinds of organizations come your way?
00:10:01
Speaker
ah What are the outcomes they're hoping to see? Tell me a little bit more about about that. Yeah. So we serve all sorts of different sizes and types of organizations, but our main, I guess, ah person of impact is the internal HR leader or the people leader. So think CHROs, chief people officers.
00:10:24
Speaker
directors of talent, directors of HR, all the way down to the emerging HR business partner. So we really do work across the board when it comes to kind of the levels within the people operations or the HR realm.
00:10:38
Speaker
But they're all coming to us for what I usually define is like two main
Technology and AI in Culture Building
00:10:43
Speaker
impact areas. One, they're like impacting them as an individual and as a leader and helping arm them and develop themselves as leaders, as HR professionals.
00:10:54
Speaker
as executives so that they can grow their career, but also, you know, grow their their presence as an executive, grow their influence within the C-suite, you know, arm them with kind of the the sharpening of their craft and their skill sets so that they can thrive within this role.
00:11:11
Speaker
On the other end, the other impact area that we're trying to make with them is kind of the ripples effect that they have within the organization. So how can we also arm them while, you know, leveling them up with the new practices, frameworks, or the strategies, whether that's related to performance management or employee listening or inclusion blog belonging or employee wellbeing and things like that.
00:11:34
Speaker
um So that they can instill those and develop those within the cultures and the companies that they work within. And that's where now we're able to impact the organization, whether that's engagement and the experience that people have internally at the organization, even from ah performance lens, like helping people make a bigger impact within their roles. So it's really about those two main areas that we're looking to impact. It's both the individual, but then the organizations that they're working within.
00:12:04
Speaker
are there Are there certain problems specifically that they're hoping a chief might solve for them? Is there something specific? at The outcomes I totally understand, but I'm curious, like when they come to you, is it to um are they having just a massive turnover or retention problem? Is it the cost of the turnover that's just simply becoming so problematic, right? Or untenable?
00:12:28
Speaker
um Is there some internal ah you know issues or problems going on with with their culture that has you know fractured their internal community? Are there any of those specific problems or is it general lack of engagement and they have heard about you through somebody else?
00:12:46
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great question. It definitely has a variety of reasons why someone might come to us. And sometimes there's more specific scenarios that they're going through. But at a high level, i think it it always revolves around two main things, whether it's performance or retention. And a lot of times those things go hand in hand, right? Like if you're not performing at a high level, ah you're naturally going to experience a lot of turnover or you're also going to be ah experiencing a lot of revolving ah doors as, you know, people who are performing tend not to make it long at an organization. So you naturally have to refill those roles anyway. So um a lot of times, yeah,
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:13:28
Speaker
they're coming to us because
00:13:29
Speaker
You know, there's this a ongoing challenge of, hey, we just can't get people engaged and excited about what it is to work here. And that's also impacting their performance. And that's make causing a lot of stress and tension throughout the organization. it's hard to get leadership on board on how to approach that even or what levers we should pull. So a lot of times they're experiencing kind of these higher level issues and challenges. And let's say we bubble them up to retention and performance.
00:13:59
Speaker
But then underneath that is also the lack of clarity on what to do with that. Like, okay, we're having performance issues. We're having retention issues. What do I do with that? What do I actually start implementing? And I think sometimes there's frustration from the C-suite of like, well, I don't want to just do these fluffy, fun culture things. Like I want to be strategic with what we're doing. So I think the lack of clarity is also kind of the underlining ah challenge that people come to us with is they're just lost and unsure of what levers to pull and where they should focus their attention. and
00:14:35
Speaker
they're experiencing at the top, the pressure of you know retention and performance, but where do we go from that? So yeah a lot of times that's where we're unpacking these topics to bring to life that clarity and then give them the models where it's like, hey, run with this, implement this, because that's going to impact this piece of your business.
00:14:53
Speaker
So the EX Leadership Network, it's ah an exciting initiative, right? It helps guide, shape leaders. um Can you share, you know, what what is the EX Leadership Network?
00:15:08
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I'm super excited about what is being built within the EX Leadership Network specifically. And that's a basically a sub-community underneath Achieve Engagement that we launched earlier this year as well.
00:15:22
Speaker
And it's a peer-to-peer driven network for internal practitioners only. So you have to be an internal HR leader, people leader at an organization to get access to this space.
00:15:34
Speaker
It is one of those ah spaces where we actually charge like an annual membership to be part of that. But what's really cool about it is like it's it's really this higher level thinking peer network to dig into the weeds and the strategies that we're executing at our different organizations to make that next level impact. And I think one thing that's like been proven so far is when you join a network like this, one, it it's a natural ah signal that you're someone that's investing in your growth.
00:16:09
Speaker
You want to level up your own craft and impact. um So there's a level of like high performance and expectations that come within this network.
00:16:20
Speaker
And when you have that type of peer community with each other, you could really start to kind of achieve different breakthroughs between between the groups. So this is where we get a little bit more deeper into the weeds, a little bit more intimate on the challenges and situations that people are navigating.
00:16:36
Speaker
And it's almost like unlocking peer to peer group mentorship and coaching between the members. So our members come every week to the table. yeah Here's what I'm working on.
00:16:47
Speaker
How have you approached it? Can you share the model? Do you have a connection? do you have a resource you you would reference me to? And rather than a lot of times these HR leaders having to navigate these things on their own,
00:17:00
Speaker
Now they get and entire community as like the extension to their HR department with the resources and the people to reach that next level. That's incredible. I mean, and for so even for so many who might be, you know, an HR team of one, having that kind of community or resource. So you're, you're not alone. There are answers. There are people who can help support you.
00:17:24
Speaker
Um, is it, I mean, That's pretty incredible. Tell me a little bit about like who, tell me about these HR leaders, right? Who would benefit from being a member? What type of HR leader are we talking about?
00:17:38
Speaker
So ah for the leadership network specifically, you know, we want a leader that is also going to challenge themselves, kind of open to rethinking how they're approaching certain things.
00:17:54
Speaker
but also a leader that's coming in with a service mindset. So there's kind of two aspects there that that type of leader needs to have to thrive within this network. And we're pretty upfront with that as well. Like if you're just a transactional, maybe like a more old school HR leader that's not willing to kind of dig into these topics and rethink how you're approaching them, this is probably not worth your investment.
00:18:19
Speaker
But for the leader who's going, you know what? The world work is changing a lot and really fast. And I need to continue sharpening my craft and staying ahead of the game and rethinking how we can approach these things.
00:18:33
Speaker
And there's like a level of vulnerability and courage that comes with that mentally to kind of own that perspective. That's kind of the first step. But then because this is peer to peer driven, we need servant leaders, we need people who are also going to serve their peers who are also in the community, who when they come to the table with their own challenges and things that they're navigating,
00:18:55
Speaker
we have the right service leadership around them that are going to help serve them, provide perspective connections, resources, and things like that. Uh, so those are kind of like, those are maybe two values that we really hold onto within our community and our culture as a network that type of leaders thrive within that space.
00:19:17
Speaker
Um, so I want to back it up just a little bit, achieve engagement, right? All about leadership, employee experience, um in ah in case the concept of employee experience ah as a focus is is new to some in our audience, you know, how do you define that employee experience, right? And and what separates, you know, a good one from from a bad one?
00:19:41
Speaker
Yeah. So one thing that i always love about culture and employee experience is one is you have one regardless if you're intentional or not, right? Like it's not really a choice. It's there.
00:19:56
Speaker
It's cultivating itself. People are having an experience within your organization, regardless if you're thinking about it or if you just allow it to organically form itself.
00:20:07
Speaker
So the employee experience is what i I like to kind of compare it to this like, and this can get a little up there, so stick with me now. But i sometimes like to compare like the employee experience to this like systemic energy that's cultivating itself from the many different elements and interactions that are happening within that environment.
00:20:30
Speaker
So if you think about all these different types of kind of pieces that someone might experience within your company, those things all come together to create this end result that is your employee experience.
00:20:44
Speaker
And that could be the many interactions that they have with their peers every single day, the conversations that they have with their leader on a weekly basis. ah the experience of logging and engaging with different processes or technologies.
00:20:59
Speaker
Like all these things have little influences over someone's experience working within your company. And a good or bad one is, does that experience enable that person to perform and thrive at a higher level, as well as provide a more fulfilling, joyful experience as well?
00:21:19
Speaker
And that's the sweet spot. Like, can you find that middle part where not only as everything we do here sets them up to thrive and perform and make a big impact, but they're also fulfilled, experience a sense of purpose and meaning and deep relationships while they're going through that.
00:21:39
Speaker
And I would say the other thing that just separates a good experience from a bad one is just intentionality behind it. I think a lot of times we allow our natural behaviors and instincts to kind of drive everything. And we don't really take a step back to be intentional with how we're showing up and holding ourselves accountable for the things that we, for the intentions that we set.
00:22:04
Speaker
And a lot of times then we just leave it up for chance. yeah And unfortunately, when you do that, that's where a lot of just unfortunate maybe situations or conflicts arise. And that's where where a lot of bad experiences come from, I think.
00:22:19
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, i think you hit the nail on the head. you know you're're You're going to have a culture one way or the other. um You're either going to develop it and create intentionally or it's going to be created for you. And then you know that that's that's like playing culture roulette.
00:22:34
Speaker
Yeah. but So this is kind of a sweeping generalization here. I mean, do you think that employees are you know overall giving the workforce – or excuse me, do you think employers are are giving the workforce the experience that they want, or at least a good experience, you know? And and when do you when you think of the workforce overall, you think they're satisfied with, you know, their their employee experience?
00:23:03
Speaker
Yeah, this is, I was kind of um reflecting on kind of that question I think some are doing a really good job here. I think there are workforces out there that are doing a great job at least trying and being intentional with this. It's really hard. I think this is something like our own individual lives we have to keep working on.
00:23:31
Speaker
keep growing and developing ourselves to become better people. And that's the same thing within our organizations. Like I think it's a lifelong journey of constantly crafting and being intentional and working on yourself in order to be better at how you serve whatever the mission is within the company, but also how you support each other throughout the process.
00:23:51
Speaker
So I do think there's some organizations out there that are doing like an incredible job, putting in a lot of work, There's a lot of leaders out there that really care and are trying really hard. I mean, we have 30,000 of them within our own network that really care and are trying desperately hard to make an impact here.
00:24:09
Speaker
Now, that being said, I think there is also a giant population of organizations out there that have not really taken the time to ah be intentional about the experience they want to drive or how they're influencing, at least at a leadership level, how they're influencing that experience.
00:24:27
Speaker
So I think there's a lot of work to do here. And I think there's a huge opportunity for some of those organizations who, if they were just to tweak a couple of things and just be more, little bit more strategic and intentional with how they're they're building that employee experience in their culture, it could make incredible impacts within the company.
00:24:47
Speaker
um And I think there's a lot of companies out there also, though, that are trying and really, you know, we're rowing towards that. And i think... sometimes employees, at at least maybe in the world of work, we also have to communicate that this is actually really hard to do, right? Like this is not a check the box thing. We can't just implement and boom, you got a great culture, done, check that.
00:25:09
Speaker
yeah it's a It's a journey. And I think if you have that type of awareness upfront, the journey becomes a little bit easier to navigate because yeah at least you have that shared understanding. and I think that's something that oftentimes ah is is overlooked, right? People feel like there's ah quick fix or there's one thing they need to do or one practice they need to implement. And you're right. I mean, it kind of develops over time.
00:25:36
Speaker
And sometimes it takes a long time, a lot longer than then others, right? It all really depends on the organization because each organization is like its own... snowflake, you know. um But it kind of brings me to to another question. I mean, it's it's it's safe to assume, right, that there there's many factors that employee ah that it impact this employee experience.
00:25:56
Speaker
And I know that that saying it's everything could be a really valid answer here, but like, what do you see is maybe the biggest factors that leaders should be aware of when it comes to positively or negatively impacting employee experience. And kind of where I'm going with this is like, we know it takes a lot of time.
00:26:19
Speaker
We know that, you know, there's a factor of getting everybody on board, right? We know that, you know, it's, requires changing mindset and some practices and initiatives, right? And so if you had to sort of distill this into a couple of really important and critical elements, right, those things that the leaders may be neglect or unaware of, or think frankly need to just focus on more, you know, significantly um when it comes to impacting this experience, what would you, what would you say? How how would you, how would you respond to that?
00:27:02
Speaker
Yeah. So I'll give ah two quick parts to maybe this answer. One, I'll go to little more like, okay, I'm going to go there again and stick with me on it. And then i would I'll give like two more tactical, like tangible examples.
00:27:18
Speaker
But one, And I think we've heard this over and over again, but I cannot underscore the importance of leadership within the culture and the employee experience, specifically at the top, like the CEO, the C-suite, whatever you know industry you're in, you know the executive director.
00:27:38
Speaker
They have such a high amount of influence over the culture and the employee experience throughout the organization. and They truly do. and And one of my favorite books of all time is called Reinventing Organizations by Frederick Lelaux, I think his his name is.
00:27:59
Speaker
But he talks about how I won't go too deep into this, but he kind of talks about there's these levels of organizational consciousness that a leader can operate within.
00:28:11
Speaker
And the culture can never exceed the level of consciousness that the leader is operating from. Interesting. so theres So it's it's kind of like this interesting thought that that the culture and the the the employee experience can never like go beyond the level of development and and growth that the leader is at.
00:28:33
Speaker
And that's maxed out. And that's kind of the way that he talks about it within the book. And I've kind of found that to be pretty true, right? If you really look at the level of development or how the leaders kind of show up and facilitate and communicate and work with their teams and, um you know, communicate what's important and all those different things and what the goals are, ah that really sets the tone for everything else, right? So that's, I think, one of the most influential pieces.
00:29:03
Speaker
Now, underneath that, then two other tactical examples I think are really important to think about that. I think if you just focus on these two areas, you could have a lot of impacts within the culture and employee experience. And one of them is performance management.
00:29:18
Speaker
And that's sometimes not like a sexy or fun thing, but it it's a performance management is a clear statement to your people about what you value and what you care about most. yeah So if you have a performance management practice that only has goals, for example, like certain KPIs, OKRs or whatever you use, and that's the only thing you're measuring and you're looking at and that's how you evaluate all of your people, you're making a clear statement to your people that all you care about are these numbers and you don't care about how they achieve them at all.
00:29:51
Speaker
Right. so That's like one lever there that's like, OK, can we start to look at performance management a little bit and can we redefine how we define performance and can we take that beyond just metrics and include key behaviors or key values or other certain elements that we look for within our people?
00:30:13
Speaker
that makes a clear statement to them. We care about this stuff and that's, we're going to measure it. We're going to track it and we're going to retain people who reflect that. Right.
00:30:23
Speaker
and So I think performance management is a more tactical, easy one. The other one is rewards and recognition. And like, how are you creating that culture of appreciation? So, which is directly connected to performance management as well. yeah So, um, but this is also really important because,
00:30:41
Speaker
ah and We did this study last year that we found out related to burnout and employee well-being and their fulfillment and their sense of purpose. A lot of that is tied directly to recognition and feeling appreciated for the work that they're contributing to the organization.
00:30:58
Speaker
And we actually found that the issue to burnout is not always just the ongoing, ever-growing task load that we have. That's definitely not going away. But it's actually the sense or lack of sense of momentum that we have on that task load or on that impact.
00:31:17
Speaker
Like, do we feel like we have a sense of forward progress and impact on the work we're doing? If not, that's why I get burnt out. That's why I get disengaged. Doing all this work doesn't really matter. Why am I even doing this?
00:31:30
Speaker
That's where it leads to some of those unfulfilling disengaged experiences. But from a recognition standpoint, if I'm being recognized, appreciated, whether that's from the organization, from my peers or from my leader, and I get you know that sense of like appreciation for my work, now I'm sensing, whoa, like, oh my gosh, my work is actually having an impact.
00:31:49
Speaker
People are actually noticing it. It is actually growing and making an impact in this way. That actually becomes an energizing factor yeah for that person. So now you have this very like energizing culture that's forming through recognition.
00:32:04
Speaker
So I think that's two areas. how That's usually sometimes where we start with a lot of groups that are having issues with culture. It's like, okay, let's relook at performance. How do you define that?
00:32:14
Speaker
That's a clear statement within your culture of what you care about. Let's make sure that's clear and really fine tuned. But then let's look at how we're recognizing and appreciating our people for the contributions that they're making.
00:32:27
Speaker
And do that do they feel that? Because that's going to bring your culture to like make it more vibrant, bring it to life a little bit more. I really love how you just described sort of the connection between the two. It's it's it's funny. Often we we will point out that this world of engagement, that engagement is like a, it's a big umbrella term, right? And then it can mean so many different things.
00:32:51
Speaker
And so we're often separating like engagement. there is the There is the performance management side, and that can include also a lot of different things, managerial assessments and surveys and you know, things like that, um, um, learning and development, you know, growth tracks and things like that.
00:33:08
Speaker
and then there is the, the recognition team collaboration, you know, rewards, uh, side of engagement, which they work together. There are two different sides, but they work together, um incredibly well and they have to right they they feed each other um you know we haven't really i'd say i i think that uh on these fireside chats i don't think we've had somebody really
00:33:37
Speaker
point out and and describe in detail like that how they work together so well and they really need to. um so I appreciate you kind of going into some detail about that. I'm going to steal all of it.
00:33:51
Speaker
was like One thing I've noticed from a lot of projects is you don't get brought in into a lot of projects when performance is high. Like when people are performing, when people are making an impact,
00:34:03
Speaker
you tend to be pretty engaged. Like that's a really energizing experience. When performance starts to get really tough or performance is maybe indirectly influencing certain toxic behaviors because you haven't connected performance management to those other pieces, that's when you start to really experience certain issues. And that's where it's like, okay, let's fine tune this again. Let's bring that back to life. Let's revisit that, but also the recognition piece. So yeah, it's so important how they're interlocked.
00:34:31
Speaker
It's really interesting, the point about really what what the leadership capabilities, um you know, or or that wherever that threshold is, right? and And the culture of the organization not really being able to ah really go any any further beyond what that is. so So leadership really bears a primary responsibility for shaping that employee experience, um which is important.
00:35:00
Speaker
the way that you describe it, right? It it makes that crystal clear. um So how does this leader genuinely begin to create that positive experience that's really, really empowering? You said that sometimes you'll start with recognition um and and sort of developing culture on that on that side.
00:35:23
Speaker
I'm curious, do you have a framework where when somebody walks in, there's like a first step? Yeah, so I think one thing that you always ah have to develop, especially with the leader, is some level of change readiness.
00:35:39
Speaker
Because as I just described when we've been talking about, it's like, sure, we could start to pull these different levers. But at the same time, if you're kind of building these more tactical process-oriented things, but you're budding up against a leadership team that doesn't believe ah maybe – from a philosophy standpoint, even in these new values or these new leadership behaviors, and they're indirectly operating against them.
00:36:11
Speaker
That's not very productive for, for the culture, right? Like you think about driving a car, you're trying to press on the gas while, the leaders are pushing on the brake, right? Like it's not going to be, sure, you're going keep moving forward to a certain point, but the car is going to burn out.
00:36:27
Speaker
The car is going to break down in the end of that. So there is some level of change readiness and collective agreement that needs to happen on the front end with the leadership team.
00:36:40
Speaker
And that also has to reinforce a certain level of accountability at the leadership team as well. And that's really hard sometimes to achieve where I'm working on one project right now.
00:36:54
Speaker
We just finished a whole series of employee listening sessions and engagement surveys and things like that. And there are certain things and gaps at the leadership level that we brought awareness to.
00:37:05
Speaker
And sometimes people just don't even buy in or believe it because, you know, they're operating from their own certain perspective and there's certain egos or the things involved with their philosophy of how they run and operate a business and and all these things.
00:37:20
Speaker
um Sometimes like, okay, well then let's just accept that this is the culture that you're driving. And, and some people are okay with that. There, there is a very real,
00:37:32
Speaker
um leadership blind spot. yeah and And I think the question obviously then becomes, does does the personality of this leader um allow him or her to recognize there's a blind spot and be open to you know to change and to growth and to doing some things differently? is are they simply unwilling to accept that that that that is the case in which, in which case you're kind of describing what you're talking about, right? I mean, if if you're not willing to kind of get on board and recognize that this is a problem, well, there's, I mean, you know, that there's not going to be a whole heck of a lot you can do about that.
00:38:16
Speaker
um Or maybe maybe there is, you know, but it leads me to sort of this question, like, how do you determine if the employee experience is, is toxic, right? Or negative, you know, or, or like I said, even worse, just incredibly toxic. And then for those environments that are, you know, if we define what that is and and you, you identify there's some environments that are truly toxic, how do you begin to turn that around, you know, to, to provide that the better experience with a leader that you're talking about?
00:38:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:53
Speaker
So one thing I want to, i so i have to root myself in sometimes, especially when i working with different companies and cultures is um making sure I'm not bringing my own belief systems into that culture because what I might deem as toxic, certain groups might be, no, this is actually the culture we want. Like we want this competitive, ah you know, high performing work environment that actually sets our company to thrive.
00:39:24
Speaker
Other companies would be like that competitive type nature between your people is toxic. So sometimes I think, there is a little bit of a subjective view on like what is toxic to our company and what isn't.
00:39:38
Speaker
I think one easy way to measure that, just understand if you have a toxic culture or employee experience, is is there are certain behaviors and things happening within the organization that's preventing you from achieving your purpose as a company?
00:39:54
Speaker
And is it at the detriment of your people throughout the process as well? So as you start to kind of define and understand that you can then start to step back and view, okay, are those things happening? Like, are we performing at a high level, but throughout the process of high performing, we are terrorizing and and draining our people, you know, or ah and a perfect example of that is how many high performers get promoted into leadership roles.
00:40:25
Speaker
that don't necessarily have the leadership qualities and they end up ruining the relationships around them. Right? Like that's a good toxic example as well as, yeah okay, you might have one high performer, but are they impacting the performance of those around them in a positive or negative way?
00:40:43
Speaker
If it's negative, that's probably a toxic behavior. So I think those are certain things you need to look for. And also I'll just understand and define like, What is your culture that you need to have that sets your company and your people up to thrive?
00:40:59
Speaker
And is that being reinforced and supported or are you allowing misaligned ah behaviors that are toxic to that vision that you're building?
00:41:10
Speaker
um For maybe the leaders and the people that you're working with that you need to change and get buy-in and you need them to kind of evolve and change who they are.
00:41:20
Speaker
and How do you get a leader there? There are some, I think, change readiness type techniques that you can have. And one of the easiest and more fun ways that I love to do that with leadership teams, let's say you're talking to a CEO that needs to change and maybe they're you know resistant to that, right? They want to continue operating how they've been operating. They've been a CEO for X amount of years. Who are you to kind of make me change?
00:41:47
Speaker
Sometimes I take a step back and be like, hey, look, You brought me in because you're not achieving certain results, right? There's something in the way there. Let's play a hypothetical two-world comparison.
00:41:59
Speaker
Let's compare one world. And I like to call this like the limited and limiting future. Let's visit the limiting future. Let's pretend we don't change anything at all.
00:42:10
Speaker
You do exactly what you're doing today and you continue down the path that you're in. What does that future look like for you? And a lot of times right away they own up like, well, yeah, I mean, I brought you in because I'm worried about that future. Like afraid we're going to go out of business.
00:42:26
Speaker
Like we're not going innovate if we don't make this change or, you know, we're going to bleed out the back and we're never going to achieve our our potential. Like, okay, cool. Let's visit that. Check that one.
00:42:37
Speaker
Now let's visit maybe the the unlocked like potential future. Let's pretend we change a couple of things. What's possible in that future? And then they start describing that.
00:42:49
Speaker
And then it's like, okay, you tell me then. Are you ready? Yeah. Are you ready to make a decision or start kind of building momentum towards one of these directions?
00:43:03
Speaker
And then from there, you can start to build some change readiness and get a little more tactical. Be like, okay, cool. Next part is, all right, let's actually work at the performance management piece. Let's define what performance is.
00:43:13
Speaker
Let's include certain behaviors that we value and look for. And let's reflect on, are you demonstrating those behaviors? Right. And then now you can start to actually get more tactical with the solution of it. But I think you really need to create some of that change readiness.
00:43:29
Speaker
And I always love doing that just fun one, because I've had people where I've done the kind of the two potential future comparison, kind of talk track with them and the meeting ends and they kind of kick you out the door sometimes or like, all right, whatever, this isn't a fit.
00:43:45
Speaker
I'll get callbacks like a month later because they can't stop thinking about that. Yeah, that doesn't surprise me like You basically put a rock in their shoe and now they've been trying to walk around with this rock in their shoe and they just can't get rid of it. So it's like just planting some of those seeds can be the start to the culture change that's needed.
00:44:09
Speaker
So, you know, employee recognition, appreciation, those things are very near and dear, um you know, to me, to my colleagues here at Mustard Hub. i have a lot of thoughts on how those things can impact the workforce.
00:44:23
Speaker
And you you did a a really great job of kind of explaining how... or what that role you know recognition plays in the employee experience. Now, I'm kind of curious, and and you don't have to say mustard up here, obviously, but i'm i'm I would like to know what avenues you see for leaders who want to do better by their people when it comes to you know celebrating them, recognizing their great work you know that that all of their people do. What should leaders be doing to show the people that they're appreciated? What are these meaningful steps that they can take?
00:44:58
Speaker
Yeah. So one, i would say don't undervalue the micro moments of opportunity to recognize someone. i think a lot of times we wait for like the big milestones, the big accomplishments or impacts to recognize people.
00:45:16
Speaker
But the challenge is if we're not kind of capitalizing and tapping into those micro moments, that might mean we won't actually build the momentum and energy towards the milestone that that we haven't achieved yet.
00:45:29
Speaker
So it's actually like really strategic to do those micro moments because that increases the chance that this person will continue working really hard to get to that big impact. So don't undervalue the micro moments, the simple things of like submitting the proposal, right? Like, thanks for getting that done, getting that in there. That's a huge step on achieving that new partnership, whatever that might be. So the micro moments are really important.
00:45:56
Speaker
Do you think that that's going to change as the world of work evolves? I mean, with with more remote teams, you know, that are distributed, greater number of people working as freelancers, independent contractors.
00:46:08
Speaker
um How do you see leaders changing, you know, what they're doing when it comes to supporting and acknowledging their workforce that are going to be distributed or have a variety of different worker classifications? Or does or does it matter? Yeah. Yeah.
00:46:22
Speaker
um Well, I think the distributed remote style workforce has definitely made it harder because you're not having some more of those many organic products.
00:46:33
Speaker
kind of moments. Water cooler moments. Yeah, exactly. And those are are often the times where you have those moments of like appreciation, vulnerability connection that really make an impact on someone's life and day and their experience with your organization. You're kind of missing some of that. So I think that's one of the just the the big ah pieces there where, okay, as we kind of move in, you really have to be more intentional and proactive about doing it.
00:47:03
Speaker
yeah And I do have some optimistic views on how technology and even AI and things like that could support you in doing that, right? Talk to me about some of that stuff. I would love to hear what is that future of work gonna look like? you know What kind of technology do you see folks using to help sort of enable their leaders, also their teams and foster this kind of culture growth?
00:47:28
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I think in in one way, I think just even some of the interesting like like nudge technology that's coming out that can help nudge and remind you of key behaviors, actions, and just like reminders to take action on certain things is going to be really valuable for people to to leverage, right? Like leaders, a lot of times are also individual contributors too. So they're often doing a lot of different things. They're moving at their own pace as well.
00:48:00
Speaker
ah sometimes you just need someone to tap on your shoulder and be like, hey, did you did you call did you call this person and let them know and say thank you for this thing? Or did you give them a shout out and kind of send this notice to this other person about what this person did?
00:48:15
Speaker
you know, I don't know. Those are just like easy examples. But I think just having like almost like, especially with some of the AI agentic technology that's rolling out to help kind of do some of the heavy lifting so that leaders can just easily engage with certain behaviors um and make it front and center for them.
00:48:34
Speaker
In some ways, technology actually doing that for them, which I'm not totally sure of like the data behind that just yet. like Can an AI agent, for example,
00:48:46
Speaker
give the recognition for you. I mean, that's actually happening. Like there's things that those things are actually happening within some workplaces. It's happening right now. And and eventually the the agents are going to be recognizing each other. all Right.
00:49:00
Speaker
So I guess I don't know enough about like the data behind that. And if people feel the same level, if not more appreciated, if it's through like an AI agent, for example,
00:49:12
Speaker
Um, but that's, that's definitely like a vision here where it's like, okay, could we design a cultural AI agent and assistant to our people?
00:49:23
Speaker
That's not only coaching and developing them, but also recognizing them and sending them little messages. And there's a whole another rabbit hole we could go on on like how that's actually happening within like mentorship within,
00:49:36
Speaker
ah people who are using it for therapy, as well as even romantic relationships, with which is terrifying to me to think about. right like But it's already showing that people are comfortable getting that sense of appreciation, love, and recognition from a technology.
00:49:56
Speaker
And that is something that they're engaging with today. So I could see that growing within the world work for sure.
00:50:04
Speaker
So I know we're kind of short on time. I want to wrap it up. I'm i'm always curious, right? So ah business leader comes to you, Zach, and they're looking for advice on how to really, truly get it right when it comes to building alignment across their organization.
00:50:19
Speaker
You're in an elevator heading to the top floor. You only have a minute and they're asking you for that one thing. What is that one thing that you tell them before the door opens and you don't ever see them again? Love this question.
00:50:34
Speaker
So I would definitely talk to them like how, first I'd be like, how crystal clear and aligned are you and your immediate leadership team on this, right? Because if they are misaligned and communicating different things, creating alignment throughout the rest of the organization is going to be near impossible.
00:50:56
Speaker
So I think work with your immediate kind of social influence and and circle that is going to be able to to provide greater ripples effects across the rest of the organization.
00:51:12
Speaker
and that's an easy win right there. yeah From there, you can get tactical and you can work with them and you know a different centers of excellence like HR to roll it out even further. but i would start simple, your your main circle of influence, make sure you all are extremely aligned and connected around how you're living and behaving within the organization, the culture that you all want to reinforce, and the goals that you're also supporting and reinforcing as a group. And I think if you have a tight unit at the top, you're going to make some some gray ripples across world. That's really important.
00:51:49
Speaker
Get on the same page with the culture that you want to develop. If you're not on the same page, just simply not going to happen. Yeah. um I love that. Well, thank you so much for speaking with me today, Zach. I appreciate you taking the time to chat with me a little bit.
00:52:05
Speaker
It's been nice having you here. Yeah, this was a lot of fun. I appreciate the time. And yeah, this was a ah fun conversation. So thanks for having me So for all of you who are watching or listening to the episode, thanks for tuning in. Mustard Hub Voices behind the build.
00:52:20
Speaker
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