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Closing the Gaps: Kim Walters on Belonging and Leadership
12 Plays18 days ago
In this episode of Behind the Build, host Curtis Forbes chats with Kim Walters, founder of Yes…And, LLC and cultural engagement specialist. With a background in education, leadership, and consulting, Kim shares how her journey — from teaching literacy to guiding organizations through cultural assessments — shaped her mission to help leaders “close the gaps.” Together, they explore how trust, belonging, and self-awareness drive retention and engagement, the pitfalls of minimization, and why inclusive hiring practices and reverse mentoring are critical for the future of work.
About Kim:
Kim Walters has been involved in education and consulting for over 20 years, working at the intersection of learning, leadership, and belonging. Her career has spanned middle-school literacy instruction, K–12 instructional coaching, and most recently, serving as Director of the Center 4All at CESA 6, where she led system-wide efforts to build inclusive, equity-centered educational environments. She is now the owner of Yes…And, LLC, where she acts as a cultural engagement specialist and helps organizations to close the gaps.
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Transcript
Introduction to Mustard Hub Voices Behind the Build
00:00:06
Speaker
Hi, everyone. It's time for Mustard Hub Voices Behind the Build. Welcome to this fireside chat. In these episodes, we speak to the people building, backing, and running better workplaces.
00:00:18
Speaker
I'm your host, Curtis Forbes.
Meet Kim Walters - An Expert in Education and Consulting
00:00:20
Speaker
My guest today is Kim Walters. Kim Walters has been involved in education. and consulting for over 20 years, working at the intersection of learning, leadership, and belonging.
00:00:32
Speaker
Her career has spanned middle school literacy, instruction, K through 12, instructional coaching, and most recently, serving as the director of the Center for All at CESA6, where she led system-wide efforts to build inclusive, equity-centered educational environments.
00:00:53
Speaker
She is now the owner of YesAnd LLC, where she acts as a cultural engagement specialist and helps organizations to close the gaps.
00:01:04
Speaker
As a lifetime lifelong learner, Kim brings humility, empathy, and deep curiosity to every space she enters. ah Hopefully this one as well. She is determined to make the world a better place for all because we know um when we know better, better.
00:01:22
Speaker
we get to do better Welcome to Behind the Build, Kim. I've heard great things about you and I'm excited to chat with you. Thank you, Curtis. Yes, thanks for having me.
00:01:33
Speaker
that That took me a beat to to to get through. Hopefully I didn't butcher it too badly. Oh, no. I'm super excited to learn more. I'm glad to have you here.
00:01:44
Speaker
um I know it's an exciting time for you. You've just started your own business. Yes, Anne. So congratulations. Thank you. I want to know what is Yes And?
Inspiration and Core Values of YesAnd LLC
00:01:56
Speaker
What is that all about? And how did we get the name?
00:02:00
Speaker
Yes. um Oh, gosh. so
00:02:06
Speaker
yeah went during the time when I was an instructional coach, um I was doing some of my own learning and discovery about myself and how I was showing up um in the classroom spaces.
00:02:18
Speaker
And the learning that I came upon was so rich and so deep um that I thought it was something all educators needed to learn about. And as I thought about more about that, I was like, this is really human work. It's not just about schoolwork. It's leaders in any area. And so I started my LLC actually like five years ago.
00:02:41
Speaker
And I had one client before I was recruited by CESA 6 to start up this new department for them. And um so then I let my yes dissolve and then ah came back to it just this month in July. And so yes, dot, dot, dot, and many people have approached me thinking it's about improv.
00:03:03
Speaker
um And it's actually not, it's a natural conclusion. I understand that, but it's really Over the course of my time in this field and having these conversations, a lot of times ah people say something or believe something. And yes, that absolutely can be true.
00:03:20
Speaker
And can we hold space for this other concept as well? and sometimes it's more than two, but it's not always either or. Sometimes it's in the middle and and there's just multiple perspectives that need to be considered that sometimes are left out.
00:03:35
Speaker
I love that. And thank you for clarifying because, yeah, my my mind initially kind of went to ah went to improv. Okay. um But, yeah, so that's a super helpful distinction. You know, we talk a lot about values-based organizations here at at Mustard Hub and how alignment with values plays a huge role in the relationships between managers, the rest of the workforce.
00:03:59
Speaker
ES& has five core values, belonging, leadership, right? Growth, humility, and empathy. How did you follow ah fall on those five?
00:04:13
Speaker
So um over the course, again, of my time doing this and engaging in this work, um we previously had four and five just seemed like the better fit ah for the new organization. And it's just a matter of doing the work. um What, like,
00:04:30
Speaker
actions are we taking and modeling in every interaction we have, whether we're coaching, consulting, or leading in interactive workshop, we always want to be be like vulnerable and really modeling what's important when um we're leading people, which if people are really complex.
00:04:49
Speaker
And so to be able to come from that space of humility, with empathy, with compassion, um and be a strong leader is really important. And so that's really just what we are rooted in.
00:05:03
Speaker
I love that. Um, ah but i I also want to learn more about your background. So where did your passion for education and inclusivity and belonging for all these core values? I mean, where did all of this come
Kim's Diverse Career Journey
00:05:15
Speaker
from?
00:05:15
Speaker
Yeah. So, um, I have, um, so I got my degree in my twenties in education, but then I didn't use it. I did a variety of other things. Um, all I would say around customer service. Some, I started a few of my own,
00:05:32
Speaker
um companies during that time, small ones. I was of as a very heavily involved parent and wife working on those roles. But then like I had Kim's concierge service and iran I taught people how to shop online when the internet was new.
00:05:51
Speaker
ah That was like something I did way back. I can't even believe like that was a thing, but it was called, it was a short lived thing called quantum clicks. um So anyway, all ah all around customer service. And then I,
00:06:03
Speaker
I went back once my children were in school, I started using my education degree. And it wasn't until I was in education for about 12 years that I was invited to take a really self-reflective assessment um called the Intercultural Development Inventory.
00:06:21
Speaker
um That really, it's where my light bulb went on, where I really changed in my, well, my whole trajectory of my career really, um because what I didn't understand is how I was showing up to spaces with certain expectations based on how I was raised as a Midwesterner in my family. um And that I didn't understand that some of my students were showing up differently from their backgrounds and places they came from. And so um once I learned more about that, so it's ah the assessment, it's a psychometric assessment, and there's this continuum.
00:06:58
Speaker
um From a more monocultural mindset to an intercultural mindset that assesses how you're showing up. And so gives you two scores, one where you think you're showing up and one where you're actually showing up.
00:07:10
Speaker
And so when I saw I had this gap, um I started working. It comes with a plan and I worked my plan. to help close my gap and grow my cultural competence. um And then I reassessed about 18 months later when I became certified in that tool and my gap did close and my cultural competence did grow. And so that is one of the tools we use as a foundation when we go out and work with organizations um because it really meets each person where they're at.
Cultural Challenges and Insights in Organizations
00:07:40
Speaker
But as each person is growing, the organization is growing then as well. and And we do action steps for the organization as well, aligned to where the organization is at. i I love the idea of kind of holding up this mirror, right? This is where you think you are, but this is where you really are. Yeah. Out sheer curiosity, is there...
00:08:06
Speaker
Is there any typical average that you see where people in any given space, in any given anywhere from 10% to 20% Are there general metrics that? Yeah, yeah. or you know some something are are there like general metrics like that that did There are. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. No, no, no. i Tell me about what this is fascinating to me, but I'm really curious to hear, like, how far away are people generally from where they think they are?
00:08:36
Speaker
Well, so what I have a few different answers regarding that. So on the continuum, there's five different orientations. And of the five, 66 percent of the United States is landing in the middle one.
00:08:50
Speaker
And it's called minimization. And so typically people in minimization, um when they're approached with someone different from a different background, um they have a tendency to minimize the differences, but that's where minimization comes from. And they really focus on the commonalities like,
00:09:07
Speaker
Oh, you're a parent too, or or you're in HR too, right? Like whatever it might be, you find those commonalities, which is really natural. um the The part of the playing down the difference and not wanting to state or talk about the things that might be different and how you ah problem solve or run a meeting or whatever those might be.
00:09:27
Speaker
um That's where the minimization, opportunity for growth, I would say comes into play. So it's like a bell curve with those five different orientations with minimization being the most common.
00:09:40
Speaker
Hearing about all that stuff. Your experience obviously impacted the type of organizations that you work with, right? You work with organizations in a few different buckets, education, business, nonprofits.
00:09:53
Speaker
ah Tell me about the clients you work with with and in in all these groups. Sure. Well, the best client is a client who is open to learning about what they don't know.
00:10:06
Speaker
when we When we become more aware of the things we don't know, that's when the true learning and really transformation can happen. um Although sometimes we work with clients because something happened maybe in the workplace and now they need to address it.
00:10:20
Speaker
um So both proactively and reactively, ah although it's always better to be proactive rather than reactive. But yeah, We've worked with, we started with schools. um Really the Platteville school district was one of the first school districts we worked with in Wisconsin. Like state-sponsored school, like state school, not not charter, private.
00:10:40
Speaker
you The public K-12 Platteville school system. We worked with a number of them from the beginning. And really what was exciting about working with Platteville is their leaders were really open. They were just really all open to learning more and doing better.
00:10:58
Speaker
And they have students that were not having similar experiences and were complaining about the types of things that were happening to them in their learning spaces. And so we worked with them over the course of three years. um and And the way in which we approached it is we were a pretty strong partner. And then we backed off a little bit and a little little bit. And now they're they're functioning independently. And even the students will tell you how much like but the high school students from ninth grade to 12th grade, how greatly the culture in the school shifted um after we worked with them. and
00:11:33
Speaker
And then we expanded to working with nonprofits. And so with nonprofits, we typically work with like the leadership and the board um to create um that same, not not only kind of positive, safe culture for the employees, but often there's a disconnect between the employees and then those in which they served.
00:11:56
Speaker
And so to really bridge that gap um in understanding and empathy and um really like approaching it from a human dignity lens, because sometimes we're coming um from a more deficit based lens and we
The Role of Belonging in Workplace Dynamics
00:12:10
Speaker
want to be more asset based. So just um getting people to consider ah their language, for example, can really make a strong shift in problem solving for a community.
00:12:22
Speaker
Super interesting. So from a cultural standpoint, almost like not only leadership to employees, but employees to customers or to students, like in in that case.
00:12:33
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I think that that's often something people overlook in terms of, um you know, building the culture within their organization, right? So so many of us are consumed with what this means, right?
00:12:46
Speaker
when it comes to interacting um internally and forget that, you know, what that looks like um externally um is a huge, I mean, is a huge part of it. So when these clients engage with you, what, I mean, what problems for them specifically are you, are you trying to solve or maybe even better, what are the problems you are obsessed with solving for them?
00:13:09
Speaker
like Sure. um So we say we're here to help leaders close the gaps. And so, Those might be gaps in engagement, gaps in retention, gaps in communication.
00:13:21
Speaker
ah Generational gaps is a big one right now with so many different generations in the workplace. There's just sometimes these misunderstandings because of the generation you grew up in.
00:13:32
Speaker
ah certain behavior meant one thing um and now other behaviors, then you're not sure how to interpret that or you interpret it incorrectly and it causes conflict. So. that's um That's very true. Yeah. And there are so many. I mean, look, we're I mean, we're all living longer. We're all working longer. We're retiring later. There's so many leaders today that are having to learn even a new lingo, um yeah you know, for for younger workers. So I'm going take a turn here into some of the challenges that you see, not just from the clients you've worked with, but also from the businesses, you know, the business world at large.
00:14:08
Speaker
Mm-hmm. or even other kinds of organizations. I mean, how frequently do challenges related to belonging, you know, create roadblocks for certain initiatives or overall organizational goals. How does this friction manifest itself for these organizations?
00:14:24
Speaker
Well, sometimes most of the time they just don't even know that what they're doing is causing a lack of belonging or ah feeling of exclusion. And so, um, a personal example I'll use, is um,
00:14:38
Speaker
you know, we all operate as best we can from what we know. And so when I um became in a leadership role where I was running team meetings, I followed ah meeting agenda like that I'd been trained to and exposed to. And so um very commonly, you know, we would start, let's say the meeting's nine o'clock.
00:15:04
Speaker
We start at nine o'clock, we get right to the agenda. the agenda items, we're trying to accomplish everything and everyone leaves with their to do's and off you go. But one of the things um that I think needs a addressing in a lot of the workplaces that we work with is trust.
00:15:22
Speaker
And sometimes if the trust isn't there and then you jump right into the agenda, there's an opportunity to build trust. And so what I found is that people on my team came from a different background than me.
00:15:35
Speaker
and they really needed to build trust. if they're yeah If they're going to be serving the mission of our team, they needed to be able to trust me and yet they didn't really know me. And so we just did a slight tweak in our agenda to like have a soft start, first of all, of five minutes because we're all booked meetings back to back to back. And so that allows for people to come in and have a little small talk.
00:15:58
Speaker
And then we would have an intentional, short brief, um ah activity, discussion, it depends on what it is. um where We're just like learning a little bit about each other. So just for example, one day the question might be, so what was dinner time like growing up for you as a child?
00:16:17
Speaker
It's something easy that everyone can answer. You don't need any research or delight, right? And then, and people are ah of course allowed to pass as well, but by learning more about one another, then we can understand more about the ways in which we work and and work more effectively and relate one with one another more effectively.
00:16:37
Speaker
And so just that little tweak of those two things made all the difference in the world to my team. i love that. um You also, i mean, just mentioned about being able to relate, right?
00:16:51
Speaker
which Which can lead to a sense of belonging. Right. You know, if there are others who share some of the same experiences, you know, that you did last weekend, last week, last month, last year, in your childhood, whatever it is.
00:17:06
Speaker
um Do you think this... need for belonging is a blind spot for leaders? Do you feel that small, um you know, or you small leaders are are tapped into the need for belonging or should I say tapped in enough small companies?
00:17:24
Speaker
I think it's shifting. I think it's in the process of shifting um now.
Self-awareness and Leadership Tools
00:17:29
Speaker
And I would say, yeah, it's before you talked about like holding up that mirror, that is a really difficult thing to do. Like when, like,
00:17:39
Speaker
All the top experts in the world will tell you that a key part of leadership is self-awareness and and to be more reflective. And that's really, for me, it was really hard. like I'm like, what ah okay, I can reflect on what I did, but if I don't have those other perspectives on how I was perceived in the way in which I did it, I don't know how to change or get better.
00:18:02
Speaker
And so having that self-awareness and that self-reflection is critical. And um so I mentioned one tool we have, but we have other tools as well that help do that. um We have CQ360, for example, it's a cultural intelligence assessment that um looks at how you're showing up in four key areas and how those around you perceive you to be showing up.
00:18:27
Speaker
And like, then we can work again on a plan and a strategy to close those gaps. Wow. So um that's really neat. I'd love to actually learn more about that. um You know, even even after this, are there are there other blind spots that leaders, I mean, even the workforce as a whole tend to tend to have, where where a lack of awareness leads to, you know, missed opportunities or even causing harm to the people in the organization, you know, and the initiatives being carried out?
00:18:58
Speaker
Yeah, I really think like, I mean, that trust and that relationship building and um it's the foundation of everything. It's the foundation of innovation because you could have hired the best talent, but if they don't feel like they can show up as their true authentic self, not having to um mask or talk a different way or not wear certain piercings or not show their tattoos or or whatever it may be that they feel it like they can't be their authentic self, they're not going to give the best they actually have because they don't feel comfortable or safe enough to do it.
00:19:32
Speaker
And so, yeah, I believe it is the key to building like, like health and wellness right now is such a, an important aspect of our world. I'll say not just even the in the United States, it's everywhere.
00:19:47
Speaker
And so um to be able to, be yourself. Like that creates a certain of amount of of wellness in going to work um and and something that leaders can allow space.
00:20:02
Speaker
But again, they don't know because because you were taught to be a leader in a certain way. So I use the ah example of a meeting, but there's a lot of other things in our dominant workplace culture that show up that really um may not be effective for everyone there. um Something coming to mind right now is just like golf.
00:20:20
Speaker
Like, A lot of people use golf as a a business strategy to build relationships. yeah But there's also a lot of people who might not know how to golf. They might not have had access to it because it's a rather expensive sport growing up.
00:20:38
Speaker
They might be a parent of a a young child or children and they want to, but after work, go home and like help with the household. and Golf takes a long time and costs a lot of money and just isn't accessible to everybody.
00:20:53
Speaker
um and even if you like start taking lessons, there's a culture golf on like how you act on a course and like all all those behaviors and you just might not feel comfortable even if you've learned to play.
00:21:05
Speaker
So what can we be doing? What other options can we be offering in our work, in our culture to um meet up and get to know one another, whether it's our clients or whether it's,
00:21:17
Speaker
um yeah we live in Wisconsin. we i live in Wisconsin and it is a heavy drinking culture. And so a lot of people meet for drinks after work. Well, what if you're not a drinker or you're a you're a recovering alcoholic or you're pregnant and you're trying to be like really involved in work, but you just might not be comfortable with what the company is offering.
00:21:41
Speaker
I think that Yeah. yeah people I mean, people often, they unintentionally um can cause harm or friction or miss opportunities because of this lack of awareness. you know Definitely as a people...
00:21:57
Speaker
A people problem. um I don't know how to golf. I'm not sure that I have the, I don't think I have the right pastels and khakis in my closet either. but But no, that's actually a really good, and even, you know, going for happy hour. I mean, all these things are really good examples of that. Yeah.
00:22:19
Speaker
know I'd love to hear more about some of the other you know people problems I think you see in organizations. you know How do they manifest? What are the symptoms you expect to see?
Strategies for Engagement and Retention
00:22:28
Speaker
um so retention um might be an issue. So when we work with an organization, we can look at the it with through Through different assessments, we look at the dynamics going on in certain teams. And so if we were working with one nonprofit where two of their teams in particular just could not retain employees, there was just really, really high turnover. And so we worked with the managers of those teams then to help increase that, again, awareness and empathy. And like, how can you offer just a healthier workplace culture for your team?
00:23:09
Speaker
I think that, um first of all, you know, a lot of things I think wind up leading to that um issue with retention. um You know, if if that's one of those symptoms, you know, finding that core core problem could stretch anywhere from engagement to you mentioned trust before and miscommunication, you know, the the lack of awareness. Um, and I feel like the issues can really end up being, I mean, they're embedded in the fabric um of the organization, right? When it comes to these big, big problems, you know, people come to you. So how does one even begin to turn it around?
00:23:49
Speaker
Well, I was going to just say that they can be, um, Often, yes, organ systemically within the organization, but oftentimes too, our managers get promoted to being a manager because they were really good at their job and the thing they were doing.
00:24:05
Speaker
But when you become a manager of people, they might not have had any training or experience there. Right. I'm sure you're familiar with the saying people don't quit their jobs. They quit their manager. Yeah. And so sometimes it just really is that the relationship aspect, the people aspect of managing, but, um, the approach we take. So we try and have a multi prong approach when we can, when it, you know, if the budget's there, we would suggest that we work with their leadership team.
00:24:37
Speaker
Um, in sub capacity, we work with the entire organization and then, um Also, if if if need be with maybe clients through whether that surveys or empathy interviews or something like that to understand more of what's going on.
00:24:53
Speaker
But then through our assessments, for example, with the IDI, because I talked to ah about that one already, we not only meet each person individually and give them their results and their individual plan, but we do a group workshop around their organization's results or the team results. And that leads the...
00:25:09
Speaker
The end of that workshop, the last hour is really on strategic planning. Like, okay, now that we see where we are with our cultural competence, um we know the employees we have. We know those who are serving. What are the best next steps for us given where we're at?
00:25:27
Speaker
and Does everybody get to see everybody else's result individual results? No, great question. No, 100% confidential no matter how much you bribe me. ah That's part of our ah our licensed agreement. Everyone's one-on-one or individual. However, um we show like a bar graph of the the different orientations and we say, well, this many percent in your organization, they're in adaptation, which is the the highest level of approaching difference. And then there's acceptance, minimization, polarization, and denial.
00:26:02
Speaker
And so we look at the percentages. and That's what I was talking about, a bell curve of before that we often see. um and then individually, we have conversations with people that, you know, like if you're an adaptation, but you're not speaking up in meetings, you know, your view really needs to be heard. So we we do some encouragement there. um and then with others, we're like, we need to increase not only self-awareness, but awareness of others. And so if you think of like a Venn diagram of those overlapping circles, um through their plan, they're learning about themselves and they're learning about others in the ways in which are most accessible and doable for them, given where they're at in life. So some people prefer to read, some prefer an audio book or a podcast, some prefer to like go to an event and learn through being there.
00:26:55
Speaker
So we we do a match of the type of resources and how can you learn more about others, learn more about yourself, and then you're understanding the differences, but you're understanding the similarities too, um which is really important.
00:27:08
Speaker
You know, you made a really, really great point about sometimes managers are being promoted without, or you know individuals being promoted promoted to management without necessarily having done that before, probably because they were really good at whatever their job was. Hiring choices, you know,
00:27:25
Speaker
that leaders make are definitely a component, I think, to a lot of these people problems, right? That that we see hiring choices or or, you know, promoting from within, you know, whatever that, um you know, a talent pipeline.
00:27:40
Speaker
Do you see a lot of missteps when folks are are building a team or rebuilding a team? you know, are there ones that are more common than others? You know, what, what, tell them about the ramifications of these for the organization and for their people.
00:27:54
Speaker
Sure. um Well, just in bringing up hiring, there's a host of things we see. And so um we look at it when we look at hiring and we're working with an organization, we look at their um job description, job posting. That's kind of like stage one.
00:28:11
Speaker
Stage two is that whole interview process. And then stage three, onboarding or not onboarding um actions they can take. And so we work with organizations to look at the best practice approach for an inclusive hiring practice that you may have or best practices in hiring.
00:28:28
Speaker
And um we look at, well, what are you doing? What would be a good next step for you in those different areas? And we do often see there's just inequities that are happening in the interview process, for example, or like um very ah maybe gendered verbiage in the job description. So we work with companies on those things to improve them.
00:28:51
Speaker
um We recently worked, we were brought in as a reactive measure with an organization where there is a position posted and there were both internal clients and external clients and um an external client received um the position and an internal client. It didn't land well and it led to an investigation um with lawyers and they found that there was no harm, no, no, no.
00:29:21
Speaker
wrongdoing necessarily but they were recommended to improve their practices because what they found since they knew the internal candidate like one thing that happened is that the um they weren't offered the same like introduction at that point in the interview because they're like well we all know so and so already we'll skip that thing okay and you know and then there was like another little thing that happened where um Well, it was actually wasn't little, but they didn't like look at the references that they gave the internal candidate because they're like, well, I hired the person. I've already checked their references. However, the internal candidate had given different references specific to this job, not the job they were hired for. And so.
00:30:05
Speaker
um So, yeah, like i there's a lot of things people can do and that job posting interview onboarding process. to be more um welcoming ah to to to those that they're hiring or or trying to hire.
Aligning Actions with Values
00:30:22
Speaker
you know um Defining and adhering to you know organizational values obviously starts with hiring. um What would you say to, lee how would you suggest leaders, you know, reinforce their values across, you know, the employee life cycle just to, you know, or avoid, you know, across the employee life cycle?
00:30:47
Speaker
That's a really great question. And I'm not sure I have the answer. this It's hard. It is hard um because i know leaders personally that,
00:31:02
Speaker
are really good people that really believe they are doing the best they can for their people. And yet there's a mismatch between what's being said and what's actually being done.
00:31:16
Speaker
and And, and, like their, their intent is a hundred percent where it should be, but, but the impact isn't yet there.
00:31:27
Speaker
That is, You know, I mean, if there's any even if there's any takeaways so far, that's like an incredibly insightful, i think, statement that that probably goes for so many organizations out there.
00:31:40
Speaker
um I want to go back to thinking about lack of awareness. Because that's I feel like this is a really big one for for for leaders who aren't getting it right when it comes to their people.
00:31:54
Speaker
How do they become aware of what it is that they're doing wrong? Is there, yeah is this is this, I mean, are these part of the things that you work with? Is there things they do on their own? Is there a self-evaluation and reflection? Tell me about all this because as I start to think about the whole self-awareness thing, ah in organizations, a lot of times there's things going wrong.
00:32:17
Speaker
lot of times the leaders have no idea they need to Look at them. So how do they become aware of it? So um you you listed a lot of things and I will say yes.
00:32:30
Speaker
And yes.
00:32:33
Speaker
um Yeah. So let's let's just start. um Let's say we do the IDI assessment and I'm doing a debrief with someone about their results. And and we it takes about an hour. we go through the results. We go over their plan.
00:32:46
Speaker
As part of that, we we break down the characteristics of someone within their orientation and they're seeing saying to us whether they agree or disagree with with that statement.
00:32:57
Speaker
Things come out from from like examples in the workplace. I'll say, you know, you know Well, you know, i might agree with this. i disagree. Is this what you're talking about? and then they'll give an example of something in the workplace. And sometimes we get themes then from talking to all the employees of things that are going on and how they're feeling. so although no individual data shared in the group debrief, we might share something like,
00:33:24
Speaker
there was a lot, there was a theme of fear, maybe shared among the employees that they don't feel that they're safe to speak up because they hurt, you know, we don't go into the why, but what we might've heard on our end, well, when this one person spoke up, I saw so-and-so walk down to their office and boy, were they reprimanded for, and because then that person tells, i was told like never to question in the in a meeting, blah, blah, blah, right? Like,
00:33:51
Speaker
Things like that. So we get we get themes that we then share as one ah strategy. But then, as I mentioned, like the CQ360, you're seeing what your team says about you, your direct reports, your peers, your supervisors.
00:34:10
Speaker
You're getting that feedback as well. But then we highly, highly recommend consistent approach to feedback. So gathering the feedback through an anonymous um way, because until your organization is healthy,
00:34:27
Speaker
you can be asking for all the feedback, but you're not going to hear the truth because someone's going to fear it's going to be tied back to them and something they did. And so ah a simple feedback of like um what we formerly used at CESA 6, for example, is a great tool and it's just called a plus delta.
00:34:44
Speaker
So a plus on one side, how the meeting go, that things that worked for you changes. What would you suggest is the delta and then questions. what What questions you still have? Like we have this meeting, but are you left with questions? And then um taking that approach to to gathering the information.
00:35:02
Speaker
I would kind of follow up with two two questions about that. yeah Is that an effective strategy in a small business with a very small team, right? Because anonymous, you know, how anonymous are things in ah in a team?
00:35:18
Speaker
It's super small. And then number two, how do you monitor this on an ongoing basis to just make sure blinders aren't going back up? You know, are are there things that can be measured when it comes to the awareness? How do you do that?
00:35:32
Speaker
Well, with the awareness, we recommend reassessment after a year. So it is something that takes time. Like when we coach around cultural competence, we do it quarterly because little steps take time and then reflecting on what you learn during that time and then coming back together and having a safe place to ask questions and someone to be accountable to.
00:35:53
Speaker
So over the course of a year and then to 18 months, even we would say we'll reassess. and then you're actually getting metrics that honestly, if you want to be transparent with your your, um, those in which you serve and on your website, you can put these metrics, like we're invested in this, this is where we started and this is how we've grown. And this is what we're continuing to do.
00:36:14
Speaker
um and it really is a challenging thing to get metrics around. And so, um, so, so that's one thing. And then, um, also just doing pulse surveys. Maybe you're just saying quarterly, sensible long ass scale of one to 10, right. And just see like, is that growing? Is it staying the same? Is it going down? What happened?
00:36:34
Speaker
I'm digging into why really important and like up up approaching like how you approach change change and transition, right? Like changes are always happening. But how are you really supporting your employees throughout that process? How frequently are you checking in?
00:36:51
Speaker
You made the announcement of this change. um Maybe the next day you're saying, what questions do you have? Then three weeks, what questions do you have? And then three months. like like right Because oftentimes it's just the new thing, the new thing, the new thing.
00:37:05
Speaker
And we're never going back and and people get overwhelmed. you love that you brought up all these metrics. you know I'm really about i'm really curious to know what role that data plays
Measuring Organizational Culture and Engagement
00:37:21
Speaker
in your work. I'd love to hear about the people related metrics or, you know, tech related metrics, you know, that organizations and their leaders could monitor to better support their people and their organizational culture, because it's such a, it's such a not measurable thing, but also a measurable thing, you know? yeah So I'd love to hear about these metrics.
00:37:43
Speaker
Um, so the, the one I was talking about, like the baseline that's with the cultural competence with the IDI, um that we have that, but then the other one that you just made me think of with your question was we have an assessment around behavioral preferences.
00:37:59
Speaker
And so when we're working with teams and you were trying to increase communication and reduce conflict, really looking at, um, what are your behavioral preferences and how we operate and work here. And so it's, um,
00:38:13
Speaker
It's a really simple tool that like asks you some questions and then on these key differences, like how you approach time, i how you approach power, power distance is another one.
00:38:25
Speaker
um Like, are you approaching work as a like a hierarchy or more as a flat organization where everyone collaborates together? Because different people, again, different backgrounds, especially that's a strong generational one where you might have a leader um who You know, maybe he's a baby boomer.
00:38:46
Speaker
He's a he, yeah a baby boomer. Maybe he had some experience in the military. Right. And he comes in with this really or maybe he's not the leader. Maybe let's just say he's the new hire and he's expecting his leaders to be a certain way in which he's been led.
00:39:03
Speaker
And maybe his leader is a female Gen Z or a millennial. with a much more relaxed style of dress conversation, um you know, isn't doesn't want ma'am or any of those kinds of things. And um how do they come together so that even that man who comes from a very polite baby boomer generation feels a sense of belonging um when his leader ah saying, don't call me ma'am, you don't have to wear a tie.
00:39:40
Speaker
They're more easy going. Let's collaborate, you know, and it's not this like these are your responsibilities to carry out independently. ah Yeah, yeah well it can be a disconnect. So anyway, so behavioral preferences is another assessment we use. And it's not a metric in terms of numbers, but the whole team gets plotted hanna ah scale of, you know, are you more this way or more that way?
00:40:05
Speaker
And you can then increase your team dynamics and effectiveness by understanding how each person is approaching these different ways of being. So um that's fascinating.
00:40:17
Speaker
and And I'm really, I'm curious, do you find that there are companies who are measuring certain things or maybe there's a disconnect between companies, um you know, what companies measure and what actually builds these solid teams and fosters community. Do you see teams trying to measure things and gather data on things that just simply are not, you know, moving the needle?
00:40:47
Speaker
That's another great question. um to answer like super, like with a strong answer, but I'll say like, I think Gallup,
00:40:58
Speaker
does great work. I think CliftonStrengths is a wonderful assessment. um and And I think there's a lot of other assessments out there that companies are using um to better themselves.
00:41:10
Speaker
And i will also say um that with by by measuring engagement, which is what Gallup measures um in their Q12, there's their 12 questions. They've got an additional four questions now that that that you can also add on.
00:41:27
Speaker
that get a little more at belonging, but still not real strongly. And so you might have someone who's very engaged in their work, but still is not feeling ah sense of belonging because they love what they do. They might have the freedom to do it, but yet when they come to the company picnic or whatever it might be, they're just not feeling like it was built for them. Maybe in the music that's being shared or the food that's being served or the, don't know, therere those unwritten rules, the unwritten rules often.
00:42:03
Speaker
That's really interesting. Do you see, you know, tech and how it's changing and evolving play a role in your own work, changing and evolving?
Enhancing Training with Technology
00:42:15
Speaker
I mean, any trends or or predictions there?
00:42:18
Speaker
So, um one thing we found, oh effective is there's, and this isn't a tool we offer, unfortunately, but I will say regarding um the ability to practice a conversation that might be really complex and uncomfortable for you.
00:42:39
Speaker
Technology, there's a lot of new companies out there. um I'm trying to think of the one. Mersion is the one I'm thinking of. They use avatars to allow you to pick a scenario and engage in conversation before you actually have it.
00:42:57
Speaker
And um wow that like you think about old school, it was role play. But people ah research says people won't take as many risks in role playing with a real person right there, whether you know him really well or you don't.
00:43:11
Speaker
as much as they'll take a risk with the avatar on a computer screen. And so um that's a fascinating aspect that I've i've looked quite a bit into. for Yeah, yeah, it's ah it's ah it's a tool that I did have the luxury of using at my last organization. And I actually spoke at a national convention just last November um on how wonderful that tool is is for that.
00:43:35
Speaker
Um, that is very crazy to me. You know, I, i was born in the seventies. I think that I'm part of this lost generation, right? Sort of the tail end of Gen X years before I think millennials.
00:43:50
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. You know, and it's just crazy to think about things like this that you're talking about, you know, and I'm thinking back when I was in my 20s or even, you know, my my early 30s and with just the tools that are available now to improve leadership, right? You know, problem solving, having conversations like these, you know, that just simply didn't ah didn't exist. You either had the conversations and it went well or you had the conversations and it didn't go well and you learn for next time.
00:44:23
Speaker
And we facilitate those types of conversations as well. So we we do something called campfire conversations. So it's more like um it's not like that one on one practice or role playing, but it's like, well, here's some sentence stems you can try using.
00:44:38
Speaker
We provide a scenario and then in the pods of four facing each other. People engage in conversation about how they might handle it instead of like an actual role play.
00:44:48
Speaker
um And that those go really well. Again, of course, you have to set the right atmosphere and environment for people to feel safe and comfortable taking some risks. um But yeah, yeah.
00:45:03
Speaker
Tell me, you know, I we'll wrap up here pretty soon, but I'm really curious, you know, if you can call out one, you know, people-related insight or cultural competency that maybe tomorrow's leaders will have to develop or in order to really thrive.
Future Leadership Skills for Success
00:45:23
Speaker
I will pop in here, and i'm not I'm not trying to answer for you or seed your answer, but all the way back in the beginning, talking about Having that skill to work with so many different generations in the same workplace is when I see leaders who do that so effectively and can somehow weave those groups together work like a strong team.
00:45:51
Speaker
That to me is, is incredible. I mean, it shows just a level of leadership, right? You can, um you know, adapt to basically, you know, any, any type, but I didn't mean to answer for you.
00:46:04
Speaker
I just wanted to make sure I didn't forget before we left. No, I love that you said that. And you saying that brought up a new idea that we haven't even talked about. And that's around the idea of mentoring. So when someone you know gets a new position, and would say a highly effective organization will provide some sort of mentoring for that person.
00:46:25
Speaker
And oftentimes that person is picked for them um and is someone who's in a similar role or had been in that role. And so improvements for that maybe more traditional idea of mentoring would be around opening that up to have a pool of mentors And like maybe there's videos or a meet and greet where the new employee can choose who they're most comfortable with and choose their mentor.
00:46:52
Speaker
um And I would also say it's almost more like I've heard it referred to as sponsorship, maybe instead of mentorship, where leaders in the organization, who can you invite to just come to a meeting and sit in so they can learn more about how the organization operates?
00:47:09
Speaker
um And then finally, when you talk to leaders being open, like like being open to learning what they don't know. um Adam Grant is an author and a thought leader who I follow and I love. And a quote he says is if get
00:47:27
Speaker
it right, if knowledge is wisdom, then knowing, no, I'm sorry. If knowledge is power, then knowing what you don't know is wisdom. And so if we have leaders who are really open having them consider reverse mentoring. So generationally, that would be a great one. So you've got baby boomer leader being mentored by the new Gen Z employee and their meeting and the and the leaders learning from the new employee about how to serve and lead better.
00:47:59
Speaker
That could be incredibly, incredibly powerful. I mean, and it especially, I mean, if you're an individual in that position where you can drop the ego and know that there are things you don't know and be willing to be open to those things, you know, ah I mean, imagine the level of respect that you're going to learn from your teams. Wow.
00:48:18
Speaker
Yeah. I love that, Kit.
Closing Remarks and Call to Action
00:48:20
Speaker
um Thank you so much for joining me today. it's ah It's been awesome. I feel like I've learned a lot. Thank you. it's It's been great for me. i love um i love sharing about what I do and the more practice I get with people asking me questions, the better am at getting better every day at explaining what it is I do.
00:48:42
Speaker
Well, definitely people need to learn more about and visit YesAnd, LLC. um And thanks for thanks to all of you for for tuning into Mustard Hub Voices Behind the Build.
00:48:55
Speaker
Please like and share this episode. And don't forget to subscribe. but Be sure to visit mustardhub.com to learn how we help companies become destinations for workplace happiness and turn culture into a competitive edge.
00:49:09
Speaker
Until next time.