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Breathing Life Into Leadership with Shawn Gulyas
8 Plays17 days ago
On this episode of Behind the Build, Curtis Forbes sits down with Shawn Gulyas, founder of humanworks8, to discuss how organizations can elevate their culture by focusing on people first. Shawn introduces the eight truths that anchor his work, offering practical ways leaders can align values, strengthen performance, and simplify culture-building.
The conversation also touches on the role of technology, the importance of recognition and performance management, and why confident leadership often begins with something as simple as taking a breath.
About Shawn:
Shawn exists to design and facilitate creative experiences that challenge one’s thinking and action – helping individuals and companies find their authenticity and elevate their people touchpoints. After a 25-year leadership career in Human Resources, Shawn founded humanworks8 to work with organizations in need of bringing their work to life through championing people. Think of Shawn as a “jump-starter” of energy and ideas around the belief that Everyone Matters and as a leader who creates cultures and communities where values, natural instincts and well-being are the essence of success. Other things Shawn believes in: Peace, Wonder, and Yoda.
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Transcript
Introduction to Mustard Hub Podcast
00:00:06
Speaker
Hi everyone, this is Mustard Hub Voices Behind the Build, where we speak with the people building, backing, and running better workplaces. I'm your host, Curtis Forbes. Welcome to today's Fireside Chat.
Introducing Sean Gullius
00:00:19
Speaker
My guest today is Sean Gullius. Sean exists to design and facilitate creative experiences that challenge one's thinking and action, helping individuals and companies find their authenticity,
00:00:33
Speaker
and elevate their people touch points. After a 25-year leadership career in human resources, Sean founded Human Works 8 to work with organizations in need of bringing their work to life through championing people.
00:00:48
Speaker
Think of Sean as jump starter of energy and ideas around the belief that everyone matters. And as a leader who creates cultures and communities where values, natural instincts,
00:01:01
Speaker
and wellbeing are the essence of success. Other things Sean believes in peace, wonder, and my favorite, Yoda.
00:01:11
Speaker
Welcome to Behind the
Sean's Passion for Music and Arts
00:01:13
Speaker
Build. I'm happy to have you here, Sean. Thanks, Curtis, for having me today. Yeah. um ah It's nice always to have a a fellow music lover.
00:01:24
Speaker
you You, like me, have a long, rich history appreciating the arts. It's something that helps me get to the next day, I always say. It's one of the things I believe in as an escape and as a sort of a recharging, definitely music and arts, theater, or something that that that keeps me going.
00:01:44
Speaker
i I kind of connect the two also because it's one of the very few things that actually really define being human, this um you know artistic you know ah capability, right? The capacity to...
00:02:01
Speaker
um to be or to enjoy or to appreciate or to create art. So it's kind of neat that you know you sort of revel in this human space, I think both in your personal time and also in your professional time.
Purpose of Human Works 8
00:02:17
Speaker
Yeah. I second the motion. Any opportunity I get or at the theater or or or listening to a concert. So um while I'm very excited to speak with you, I'm equally as excited to learn more about Human Works 8. You've created a fascinating organization so the audience can get up to speed.
00:02:39
Speaker
Tell us a little but give us a little background. What is Human Works 8? Well, the best way to sort of put it really succinctly, Curtis, to say we're a team of people and culture experts with really a really focused purpose.
00:02:54
Speaker
And what that is, is to build sustainable people practices in organizations that elevate people and culture. And that also impact them bottom line success.
00:03:05
Speaker
So that's what it's really that sustainability to really help organizations look at people and the work they're doing, as well as their culture, and then give it a lift, elevate it further. as ah As I've gotten to know you, i I really feel that focus. It's like a laser-like focus ah on these things. And i can I can really appreciate all of that. Tell me more about the eight.
00:03:31
Speaker
What are the eight and where did they come from? Exactly. That's always a ah good starting point with everybody we work with and we meet. Well, the eight in our name, it comes from the team. When we you know first started, we're celebrating our sixth anniversary next month. But um six years ago, just sort of looking.
00:03:50
Speaker
Thanks for that silent applause. I love it. Looking at our long history and like experience with people. And that came from all of us a lot of varying different roles from, you mentioned my background in human resources, but I also have a background in theater and theater work.
00:04:08
Speaker
We have ah consultants on our team that have a public education background, marketing background, business development background, talent discovery and recruiting background, and And in looking at all those experiences over many years and and then ah many of us working together for more than a decade, we found there are eight truths about people.
00:04:29
Speaker
Eight truths. Okay. And then we found out, wow, that's kind of amazing. That's a cool number. And then we said, well, those eight truths lead to eight touch points in a business.
00:04:41
Speaker
And so that's really where name came from, Human Works 8. And everything we do is based on those eight
The Eight Truths of Human Works 8
00:04:47
Speaker
truths. And I'll share them with you if you don't mind. How about that? Please. The first one is everyone's unique.
00:04:52
Speaker
Second is everyone believes. Everyone contributes. Everyone connects. Everyone learns. Everyone rises. Everyone thrives. And everyone matters.
00:05:04
Speaker
And when I say those, you may think I always challenge the people we work with saying, you know, what are your beliefs around people? Because that's where everything starts as people leaders or a as an organization.
00:05:15
Speaker
Our beliefs drive our actions, drive what we do. And so we make it very clear. We have some beliefs. We have some truths that about people and everything we do work from those. And as I said, those eight beliefs then lead to then what are those tangible business touch points that those eight connect to? yeah So for example, everyone's unique is around talent discovery and optimization.
00:05:40
Speaker
needed in a business, needed for strong cultures. Everyone
Impact of Language on Company Culture
00:05:44
Speaker
believes is about having a strong strategic plan that aligns that belief up and down the organization. Everyone contributes communication.
00:05:53
Speaker
Everyone connects teamwork. Everyone learns leadership development, growth of people in your organization. Everyone rises is around performance management and coaching.
00:06:05
Speaker
Everyone thrives is around workplace transitions, onboarding, offboarding, other things that happen, you know, and changes in organization. And then finally, everyone matters is our focus in helping organizations around belonging, you know making people feel a part of it.
00:06:20
Speaker
These are, so one thing that I notice about them, all except the first are action verbs, and which I love, um especially when when when I talk to organizations,
00:06:35
Speaker
We talk about things like values. We talk about yeah having that action verb is incredibly strong, but there's nothing on the other side of it.
00:06:47
Speaker
And so i'm I'm curious when we talk about everybody believes, right? Everyone ah thrives. to For a a healthy culture, would it be would it be accurate to say that everybody needs to believe and everybody needs to thrive and everybody needs to basically get on board with all of these things in order to have that healthy culture.
00:07:13
Speaker
Yep. That's their truths. It's the truth. They have to be there, you know, and in different organizations are, ah you know, may find some being, having more of an opportunity in that area. Others may be really, you know, doing really good work in that area.
00:07:27
Speaker
We help them sort of see them all how they work together as well as then help organizations to sort of create that roadmap on if they're really trying to look to elevate culture, which ones of these do they need to focus more on or elevate
Understanding 'Everyone's Unique' Truth
00:07:41
Speaker
f from? So, yeah.
00:07:42
Speaker
So do you have a favorite or or one that you care to highlight because it tends to be overlooked most? Yeah, well, you know, I think favorites are impossible as far as that goes, because, of course, they all work together. You sort of said that. That's what a culture is based on. So they all work together.
00:07:59
Speaker
But I will highlight one, and you already highlighted it. And that's why um everyone's unique. And you said it wasn't action. Well, that's what makes it unique. Get the idea? So there's a play there as far as that goes.
00:08:11
Speaker
and And I highlight it, Curtis, because it's one where I think, you know, matt where I go when I ask about their belief system, they would say, well, I believe that, Sean. I believe that truth, too. And then I also say, but you can't handle that truth.
00:08:26
Speaker
You can't. You can't. We can't. Human beings, our uniqueness between people, it's almost too much for our minds to get around. yeah And that's why we as human beings make judgments or group people and all that kind of stuff because our minds really can't handle yeah how different you and I are um ah um so many different levels.
00:08:48
Speaker
So that one is a critical one because ah we help organizations around all these touch points find a way in. And that's a critical word. And, you know, it's more than just training, but you need to find your way into that truth and how you're going to handle it.
00:09:04
Speaker
And we have a great framework around the way into everyone's unique because we look at people across all three parts of their mind. And when I say that, people immediately go, what, wait, what, what is that? And how, what?
00:09:20
Speaker
we're not doing that and and it simplifies it very well it's really just really having them understand that each of us have a cognitive part of our brain around expertise and knowledge each of us have an effective part of our brain around personality and values and beliefs and then each of us have this cognitive part of our brain around if i have the freedom to take action my way what's my natural way of taking action based on my instinct So I highlight that one because I think that's really critical. And in this day and age, when organizations are looking for ways to really elevate talent or find new talent, that three parts of the mind framework gives them a solid and a confident way into that that truth.
00:10:04
Speaker
my mind is My mind is going in a million places right
Challenges of Bias and Tribalism in Hiring
00:10:08
Speaker
now. um You and I are going to have hours and hours of conversations after this. But number one, I love how that was intentionally done, that the unique that the unique one was actually unique compared to all of the other eight as well. So kudos to that.
00:10:26
Speaker
Yeah. It's really interesting on how you point out that our minds struggle to really handle that because that type of bias gets in the way of hiring. We tend to gravitate towards people that are like us or that we like.
00:10:43
Speaker
um And generally speaking, you know, a a good hire is somebody who complements our strength, not is the same as our strengths. And if we just hire people who are like us, a lot of times we're not going to get that 360 picture that we really need.
00:10:58
Speaker
um You know, you made a comment about, um you know, how difficult we tend to you know,
00:11:10
Speaker
Not your words, but the the idea that tribalism, I think, is can have such a negative effect on, on well, I mean, i just about anybody. Understanding that we're all unique, and that's a good thing. That's a good thing for an organization, is ah far too often overlooked. It destroys friendships. It destroys teams. It destroys companies. It destroys nations.
Company Values and Their Actionability
00:11:37
Speaker
and um you know not to But um I just, so I love that you highlighted that one because in a sense, there are so many of the others that play off of that one, right? Because we're going to thrive differently. Success looks different for everybody and it's nonlinear, right?
00:11:57
Speaker
um You know, we' we belong differently, right? We all find our own way into the organization. We all are elevated in different ways, um you know, so love that.
00:12:08
Speaker
So I love that people are at the heart of of of all you do. and And I sort of appreciate that values are the core of the business. What are, you know, HumanWorks 8 company values?
00:12:23
Speaker
How did you choose them? And then you can we can talk about the fun conversation we had about ah values when we first connected. right? And how you look for these things in the companies but and the companies that you work with. But tell me about yours.
00:12:36
Speaker
Well, um exactly. you know We start with values. Even before any of that eight stuff, ah values of an organization is our starting point. And whether that's an organization who already has value language, or whether it's an organization that hasn't really put energy or effort to sort of looking at, you know what are we about at the heart of the values that way? So you know no matter for this, I think I began with you. I want to know, you know what,
00:13:01
Speaker
What's Mustard Hub's values? I've got got to know those. that's how i That's how I know about you a little bit that way. yeah And sometimes that's an easy answer from an organization. Sometimes that can be one of the challenging answers. saying And I always say, you have them.
00:13:15
Speaker
They're there. Okay? You may not have put energy or effort. They're there because you've had six if you've had success as an organization, yeah that's coming from some values. That's where it starts.
00:13:26
Speaker
um and i And I mentioned you know our values. And when we look at that, we you know aren we have a standard. They have to be gutsy, they have to be unique, and they have to be actionable. So you you mentioned that action word, everything we do is around action. So those are our three markers that we would you know sort of give feedback on.
00:13:45
Speaker
And for HumanWorks 8, Ours are champion people. And hopefully you've felt that a little bit even from me today. One is be authentic. You're going to get authentic me today. That's just the way and you know that that's going to happen. That's there.
00:14:00
Speaker
The third is elevate. And I probably have used that word. i don't know how many times even today. That's really what it's about. We don't start over with people or with organizations or with culture.
00:14:11
Speaker
We're always elevating from where you are, wherever that may be, whether that's a challenging place or whether that's successful place. And we really believe that. And that really opens a lot of doors for us because people always think, oh, people want to come in and start over. ah no you can't. You don't have time to start over. and You have to move from where you are.
00:14:30
Speaker
The fourth is wonder, um wondering and questioning. It's, you know, i was just in a meeting with one of our clients yesterday and they were amazed at all the questions I asked. And it's a really relatively new relationship, and but they were kind of like, wow, you know, you just came in and you just asked us some tough stuff and, you know, and we need, and we needed to be asked it. So that wondering is really important to me.
00:14:53
Speaker
um And then the last one is breathe. And that's that whole thing about wellbeing, that you know, just to just to really take a breath ah is so important and really finding that balance as an individual, whether that's in work or in life.
Designing Intentional Company Culture
00:15:09
Speaker
Tell me more about what you mean by gutsy. like I loved it when you said it and I wanted to make sure I hung on to that because I want you to go a little deeper there.
00:15:21
Speaker
Yeah, what I mean by gutsy, you know, it's it's got to be that it's the truth, the true you, okay? um You can't hide it. You can't do your values what you want to be, something to the future.
00:15:33
Speaker
It's got to be, if I walk into Mustard Hub or to HumanWorks 8, I need to see, I need to feel in every interaction. The values should be right there, okay? They're part of who you are from the gut as far as that goes.
00:15:48
Speaker
um And so that's what I mean by the word that it's that the I use the word, we use the word gutsy because it's sort of that living element of values. You know saying? it it It comes from human, it needs to be living.
00:16:00
Speaker
um And so we really, when we work with organizations to to listen and through our values discovery process, we really listen to the stories that are told and we hear those gutsy moments of a company and where the truth and where that value really comes out. So does that help?
00:16:18
Speaker
Yeah, no, I i like that. You even pointed out that it's a hard question to answer. There's a lot of business owners who have never spent the time defining these things, and which i'm I'm sure you've seen.
00:16:34
Speaker
but i don't need to explain it to you. But the idea that Your culture is going to exist whether you have chosen to define it or not. You can either work to, um you know, what's the word I'm looking for? um You know, you you can design your culture intentionally ah or it will get designed intentionally.
00:17:01
Speaker
On its own. and And you mentioned that, you know, if you found any success, you know, it's generally because of some value. I would argue that even if there is some failure, it is also because of some of these things and some of those things that may have not been intentionally designed, right?
00:17:21
Speaker
um You know, that's that's sometimes the bad side, right? If you don't intentionally design this and and and take these actionable steps that you're talking about, you know There are some negative things that that that that might happen you know that that are you know you can certainly tie back to and relate to culture. So I think that that was a super important point that like it exists.
00:17:45
Speaker
Whether you have the names for these things or you don't have the names for these things, which is why i appreciate you can walk into a room, start to have these conversations and probably figure out pretty quickly what these values are, regardless of what they name it.
00:17:57
Speaker
You have a pretty good idea of what it is. what they and What they are or what they aren't, as far as as I always say, just by even the workspace and just how people interact. And I always say sometimes you get the values from the first person you meet in an organization.
00:18:12
Speaker
And that's why I like to spend a lot of time with that person. And I really make a really strong connection because I said I really get the sense of an organization by that first person. um and and And a lot of times I'm often surprised, oh, God, this person is the best. You know, they're the best.
00:18:28
Speaker
um But other times you wonder, okay, okay, what's going on here at at this organization? with or And I always, my feeling is how can I help this person? They need support. They need something different.
Diverse Client Challenges
00:18:41
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:42
Speaker
That actually kind of brings me to this sort of next topic. I'm curious to talk a little bit about the clients who come to, to human works eight. um Who are they? um Well, we we don't need to name names, but tell me a little bit about them. What are the challenges they face that bring them to you? What are the problems that your team is obsessed with solving for them specifically? And and maybe those are different things. I don't know. Yeah. Well, you know,
00:19:09
Speaker
We run the gamut, let me tell you that. So it's not like, it's I said we are very focused on what we do, but that focus and the actions we take to help organizations really can apply to the You know, we work with startups to 100-year-old companies.
00:19:25
Speaker
Do you know what I'm saying? so When you think about that, it it really runs the gamut. But the bottom line is somebody has is thinking, okay, we need to focus more on people or we want to be, you use the word, intentional about actions we take. We've done a lot of stuff, but is there someone that can help us focus that?
00:19:43
Speaker
so And that could be teams. We've worked with teams of 10 to teams of hundreds to thousands. varies as far as numbers of people we work with. And then the Gamma 2 runs from for-profit and we work with a lot of nonprofits.
00:19:56
Speaker
So that's sometimes interesting to people as well. is that But when it makes sense, you know for-profits really need that people element. And nonprofits kind of have that value drive almost built in a lot of times as far as the focus on people.
00:20:11
Speaker
And then again, all across the U.S., um We do work with organizations that have offices overseas, but across the US that way. okay you You mentioned why why would they come any of these organizations come to us? Well, the challenge, people are challenging. and That's sort of bottom line. Let me tell you, I'm a challenge, you're a challenge. People are challenging.
00:20:33
Speaker
so They're looking at how to engage better, how to think well about their team, how to optimize talents are some of the things. And the connection too is they want to focus on people, but sometimes they don't see that line. How does it impact bottom line? Because they need to think that way too.
00:20:50
Speaker
Right, right. Which was a question that I kind of, I had around these because all those other things are sort of, are are nebulous in a sense, right? They're important because you want things to be nice, but how do you try it back to the business goals?
00:21:03
Speaker
Exactly. And that's why, you know, on those touch points, those are business, you know, bottom line impact areas of a business as far as that goes. So, you know, they we want to do that. And then they're trying to solve something.
00:21:14
Speaker
You know, maybe they're trying to solve, you know, everybody's focused on these values. We need to bring ours to life. Trying to solve this value topic. You know, a thing we do a lot with is we run with a lot of organizations that are just trying to simplify and clarify their strategic plan so that we can get that everyone believing together and really seeing their line of sight. And we're really strong in that area.
00:21:39
Speaker
but Some organizations we work with is all around just talent, how to find right fit talent for roles, using that three parts of the mind framework that way, giving them more confidence in hiring decisions.
00:21:52
Speaker
And then that confidence leads to people staying, you know, i'm saying because they have that right fit based on all three parts of the mind. And then, you know, another probably thing they want solved is developing leaders for what's happening today, you know, leading
Importance of Clear Vision and Values
00:22:08
Speaker
people and and that the challenging environment we're in ah We care about these things.
00:22:14
Speaker
They see that caring and we want to tie it back to sort of elevating what they're doing around those. So. Again, kind of a gamut. um I would say you know the challenges or what they're asking to solve, much more focused, but the type of business, you know everybody, whether you're a startup or whether you've been around 100 years, people are always a challenge and and we focus in on some of those people needs.
00:22:39
Speaker
I wanna go back to one of the things. So we've we've we've already established sort of this idea that everybody is unique, which I love. The believe piece to me, it was second in line.
00:22:54
Speaker
Yeah. But also affects everything downstream. Exactly. And, you know, you had mentioned that about, you know, my words, sort of rallying the troops.
00:23:04
Speaker
how How do you go about doing that with an organization that has hundreds or thousands of people? Is that part of some of the things you do with organizations to strategically find ways to get everybody on board? Is it, is it messaging? Is it meetings? Is it some other kind of culture development?
00:23:26
Speaker
What goes into that? ah Around that everyone believes and sort of the putting it in business language, strategic planning, that is, that's critical for, you know, what what you were saying, sort of rallying the troops and what we find um and what we push back on, you know,
00:23:43
Speaker
yeah our discovery processes are like, Hey, we need to discover, you know, what are you doing now? And that now could look like a lot of different ways. It could be, we're doing nothing. Okay. Or it could be a 36 to 52 PowerPoint slides.
00:23:57
Speaker
Okay. As far as, And both are madness, in my opinion, both of those things. I think you have to find that really sort of middle ground of clarity and simplicity around that.
00:24:10
Speaker
And we really help starting, and it has to start really with the executive leadership team, the the highest level leadership team. And they we really push them to get behind two things, a strong vision. And there's a lot of elements that make up what a vision of an organization is or anything.
00:24:26
Speaker
But where it starts with is values. So they don't have values, we can't go any further. We've got to get those. That's the foundation of your vision. And that could lead to anything sort of having a picture of the future.
00:24:39
Speaker
um We focus on probably ah a three to five year picture that we're trying to create in this day and age. Even five years sometimes gets a little bit you know, sort of obtuse and out there, but three years, you can sort of see what's ahead that way.
00:24:52
Speaker
So really getting clarity around the vision for that everyone believes, because you have to paint that picture for everybody and everybody needs to see themselves in that picture. And then really turning
Building Strong Cultures with Caring Leaders
00:25:03
Speaker
that into a simplified way to create what are we looking at you know based on a business as you know workflow in a year or quarters or whatever element they set up to really simplifying that so everybody knows, OK, here's what ah organizationally what we're doing in the next year.
00:25:20
Speaker
Here's what we're doing over quarterly. And then everybody's sort of seeing their line of sight up there. you know I always say, you know, there's so many strategic planning methodologies and everything up there. We've created our own. We call it the way.
00:25:33
Speaker
So it'd be like the Mustard Hub way, the Human Works 8 way. you You need to build your unique approach to that. But it does need to have a vision, does need to have action. And everything you do in it, it's not about, find you know, wordsmithing it or trying to say everything. It's really getting to that simplicity and clarity around both elements.
00:25:53
Speaker
Does that help, Curtis? Oh, my God. Yeah, tremendously. And and and and it I keep thinking about, you know, everybody sort of understanding the vision and having a clear understanding of the strategic plan is is ultimately what, like I said, it it affects everything downstream. You know, a leader's learning and development, you know, how you elevate your talent.
00:26:16
Speaker
um All of these things are done through the lens of, that vision and your strategic plan if, right? I mean, without those things, how do you know what you're developing talent for?
00:26:30
Speaker
You know? And so I, love I, love, love that. And yes, it, no, it makes a hundred, it makes a hundred percent sense. And so, I think we all, so it all starts with really understanding people, right? um And leaders, I think, just getting humans and and how they work, their uniqueness, right? All understanding on the same page about what the organization does, how we're doing it, how we're providing value, how we're going to be providing value in the future.
00:27:00
Speaker
What are the consequences for an organization when leadership just isn't aligned with their workforce? Yeah. Yeah, well, you know. Imagine that's one of these problems you see when folks come to you is there is that sort of divide.
00:27:15
Speaker
um It does happen. You know, here's what I would say when it comes to alignment. When I think of alignment, um sometimes people say, well, leaders don't get it um To me, those are very cognitive kind of things.
00:27:28
Speaker
Okay. And um people leaders don't start with cognitive. So I always push back and say, you can say that, but it's not about making your leaders smarter or teaching them something.
00:27:40
Speaker
um If you have somebody in a people leader role, the bottom line, that starts with the affective part of our our brains, actually, um how we feel or how we care about people.
00:27:52
Speaker
And I always ask the question, Curtis, I would say, hey you know, that this person, you have a challenge. Do they care about people? And of course, the answer, you know, always give a yes or no answer. they're going to say yes, of course. Or if you even ask that person directly, yes, I care about people.
00:28:07
Speaker
But you have to take it just sort of a step higher than that and sort of say, well, where did your caring elevate that person's life at work or at home? And that's where that people leaders eyes sort of go, that's my job. If I'm in a people leader role, you get the idea. And that's, that's what builds strong cultures. The best cultures have leaders that really care about people and they're working to sort of elevate them at work or at home, you know, cause it all goes together.
00:28:39
Speaker
You we say it's about bringing, you know, life to work and bringing life, you know, at home, work to life and life to
Building Leader Confidence
00:28:45
Speaker
work. So yeah, that would be my answer. And again, that's sometimes it's two simple questions, but it really gets sort of at that highest level. Because I think, you know, do we have the right people being our people leaders?
00:28:58
Speaker
And then when it gets down to people leaders, sort of, you know, I don't mind if they self-select, you know, maybe maybe this isn't that, you know, right that takes extra energy. That takes extra effort if you're ah if you're in that kind of role.
00:29:12
Speaker
But it's necessary for strong cultures. Those role models, the people that are living values, I think is necessary. At smaller companies, whether it's ah a startup or a small business, even some you know more medium-sized businesses,
00:29:29
Speaker
you know inevitably there's going to be overlap. right There's going to be people whose maybe a core competency isn't necessarily that you know being a that people leader, but it will fall under their purview of in some way. and so and And that just might be a matter of you know how they're efficiently using or inefficiently, depending on how you look at it, using their manpower right and their resources. And so if there's a what happens when a leader doesn't understand these things? right
00:30:05
Speaker
You're working with them and and you see that they there was maybe a disconnect between but their job is or or at least how to execute that part of it with their people and and that it wasn't necessarily you know something in their core skill set. So how do you give them the tools and the skills and confidence To do it right. Do you do you see that that change is possible or do you just expect them to self-select out?
00:30:32
Speaker
Well, um I believe in people. So, of course, I believe there's always hope. You know, there's always time for change. ah But it has to be a willingness and there has to be ah a drive for an individual. I can't motivate you to do that.
00:30:46
Speaker
I would say, hey, ah my job as a, you know, a leader of other people is not to motivate you. You know, i i'm I'm a batteries kind of included kind of person. Like, open doors. and I'm going to use that.
00:30:57
Speaker
I'm sorry? I'm going to use that. I've never heard anybody use that term before. Oh, you must use it. It's so important. You know, you know. We're wasting a lot of energy and time if we're trying to charge somebody up to be a people leader or to lead in a culture sort of thing. You know that there has to be you want the best. They have to believe in it, care about it that way. And I do think it can be growth. And you mentioned the word confidence. Everything we do in leadership development or helping leaders, it's all about confidence.
Addressing Leaders Not Meeting Expectations
00:31:28
Speaker
There's not anything I've even talked about today that's not a confidence builder in an organization. Because for any role in an organization, the more confident you are, the the better you are at it you know The better you are able to add your greatest value. so But where we start with that,
00:31:44
Speaker
we don't believe in long leadership trainings, ability, confidence over eight hours. It's how do you focus on small moments of leadership that you can, you know, and apply right away and build right into your habits that way.
00:31:56
Speaker
And, you one of the small moments is that whole idea of looking at people as batteries included. have you That's a small sort of applicable thing. You could go down your five people that report to you and say, which ones have batteries included?
00:32:07
Speaker
You know right away and you can start coaching people. then right away about it. So we believe in those small moments, we call them moments that matter and do a lot of work that way for people leaders. And I do think you can build somebody's confidence.
00:32:21
Speaker
A leader has to really understand themselves. Well, we call that our leadership training starts what we first with the inner view, that you have to really know yourself well, before you can know others and how you're wired across all three parts of your mind.
00:32:35
Speaker
um around your beliefs, around belonging, all those truths that are around people. yeah, I think you can. I love that. And and I would agree 100%.
00:32:48
Speaker
Love the batteries included. Going to carry that with me in every conversation I have today forward. Sean, do you ever do you ever feel, you know, any folks ever come to you have you worked with any organizations where maybe there's some leaders who who can't work won't simply not able to kind of get with with the program. What do you tell an organization? How do you advise them when there is a later leader who who simply just doesn't doesn't get it? Would you say that there's ever any lost causes, even though I don't like to use that word,
00:33:22
Speaker
um yeah I would second that motion about lost cause, although I like that word. There's something about lost cause that makes me get passionate. Like I want to do is, can something be a lost cause? yeah sort of but That drives me into action. But if somebody said that to me, clients that say that, and I've actually had, you know, two clients in the last couple of weeks that have talked about underperformers.
00:33:43
Speaker
And my question back would be, what is your leadership model? And what I mean by that is can so can somebody be a lost cause if they don't know what are the expectations, standards it means to be at your organization to be a people leader?
00:33:58
Speaker
What does that look like? What are you expecting from them? And then have you given them the opportunity and the the the learning, training, coaching, and and growth to sort of build skills and confidence in that area?
00:34:14
Speaker
So ah that's that's how I would respond. a lot of times they say, no, we don't do enough energy with that. you know we just you know Can't people just lead people and just do something on their own? I'm like, well, some may have that sort of gut instinct and wire that way. Others may need a little support and help that way.
00:34:32
Speaker
So I also think it ties back to how you know organizations focus on that touch point of performance management. at you can label and put a lost cause or no hope on ah a certain person. But then I always want to say, what have you done? you know How have you you know given them feedback on their performance? Are they aware that they're not doing well as a people leader? because If they're not, they may think, hey, I'm meeting the standard that way. So definitely, I think you need to take some actions to remedy.
00:35:04
Speaker
But at the same time, it it also ties back to their individual passion and drive. Sometimes people don't want to be in people leader roles. They might like the title of a people leader role. They might like the income of
Technology in Building Culture
00:35:16
Speaker
a people leader role. But they just don't have the capabilities or capacity to live up to what that might mean in an organization's leadership model.
00:35:26
Speaker
You know, to to pivot just a little bit, you know, I have to have to ask about ah tech. ah Mustard Hub obviously is ah is a tech company. What role do you see technology, all these various tools and platforms that companies are adopting, what role do you see the technology playing in building culture? Are they making a positive impact?
00:35:51
Speaker
Could all of these different tools be, you know, impeding progress in a lot of ways? Technology and culture. Wow. You know, sometimes i want it to be more of a oh God, they go together really, really well. But sometimes um it can be difficult because one thing, sometimes there's a missing a strong why or purpose for that alignment. You know what i'm saying? ah you know, there's a lot of sort of technology that looks good on the outside, but what is it going to solve?
00:36:19
Speaker
for people or culture or what it's going to elevate around those touch points in people and culture. Because if you can find that connection, i think that's that's, then I think it has some value there.
00:36:31
Speaker
you know, larger companies often use an enterprise solution that has built in I might use the word clunky people and culture kind of things that that way we find. Because when we're working with organizations around touch points and they're looking at trying to simplify or clarify something, sometimes technology doesn't let them do that.
00:36:51
Speaker
um That it's kind of built in a certain way and it's not working for them. So um I love technology that helps solve around these issues and um that matches up with what they're trying to do.
00:37:08
Speaker
What kind are you seeing as maybe the most valuable in this changing world of work? and and And really anything from culture development, performance management, any of these enterprise solutions that are sort of all-in-one types of things. What well platforms have been valuable for HumanWorks 8 or your clients?
00:37:29
Speaker
Yeah. You know, we work with a lot of organizations that use a variety of platforms. We're not an expert in any of them, to to be totally honest. We help them find, okay, here's what you're trying to do around building your roadmap to elevate purposeful culture.
00:37:42
Speaker
Here's how your, what we know of your technology solution, how it might help. And here's where there might be some disconnects. So, you know, the probably, I would say there's three areas of ah where people are using technology improvements or that kind of thing. I think one is around communication, surveying, recognition.
00:38:02
Speaker
you know i'm saying? that And I do think ah ah technology can help with that. um We always say, hey, well, just having a central manner of doing that is important. you know if What is your way in your culture to communicate, to survey, to recognize?
00:38:22
Speaker
um Sometimes that's just a robust intra internet. You know I'm saying? Hey, just get get everybody to one place and that's the you know that's the but that's where the the single source of truth is happening.
00:38:33
Speaker
But sometimes, you know depending on the organization, whether they're ah really remote and all over, sometimes ah an app or other technology can can help with that. Have we found the perfect solution yet? No.
00:38:46
Speaker
ah ah That's why i was really interested in in speaking with you and learning more about Mustard Hub because it it seemed a little more flexible and maybe you can speak to that in addressing and helping organizations find their way into that.
00:38:59
Speaker
But that's one area, communication. The other would be performance management. You you mentioned that. A lot of these enterprise solutions don't allow a renewed way of looking at performance management in a simple, clear way that fits right into what the technology says it needs. And it's too too difficult.
00:39:17
Speaker
And then the last one would be training and development. Probably the one... that sometimes I have the most challenge with depending on where your workforce is because I think people are a little tired of being trained online. They want a live experience. We're finding.
00:39:35
Speaker
um and and ah And so I think for a skill or for learning a new capability, sometimes an online training is the way to go. and And also it varies by people. I want to go back to the three parts of the mind. Some people do really well and like that online experience based on how what works well for them.
00:39:54
Speaker
But there are many that, you know, if I'm on that. I'm going to get bored and off that within moments or do double work as far as that goes. But I do think there's a ah ah I do think technology can provide some ways in to solve some of these things.
00:40:09
Speaker
um I don't know if I've heard of a solution that captures it all. And then I also think sometimes organizations need some direction on, you know, do we need one solution, multiple solutions? What's the best path in?
00:40:20
Speaker
What are your thoughts? Well, You know, i think about as much as every individual being unique, so are businesses.
Need for Flexible Tech Solutions
00:40:32
Speaker
um You know, you talk about, you used the word flexible and solutions. um You know, solutions are inherently built to solve, you know, a a specific problem for, you know,
00:40:49
Speaker
80 90% of their, you know, ICP rights or, or something around that. The reality is right. You're, you're right. There's no silver bullet.
00:41:02
Speaker
There's not one thing that's going to solve everybody's problem in every industry, with every size business, with every type of leader. It just doesn't exist. um You know, my hope is that when you ask what my thought is, my hope that one day there is. That's my hope.
00:41:17
Speaker
um But, you know, I think that that flexibility is such an important and yet underrated part of um of software development. And I think that, you know, we're trying to solve, you know, as as as an organization that is actively working, you know, in this space, right, to solve problems in in the culture space, you know, for small businesses, medium-sized businesses, et cetera.
00:41:49
Speaker
um
00:41:52
Speaker
It's, I think it's it's something that we see, know, the need for you know the the need for flexibility, customization, right? So that it can fit your specific use case. And um so, I mean, I, I, but everything that you just said, I fully support, you know, a ah hundred percent. And, you know, I think that um in that space, right. In, in, in building solutions for these types of organizations, right.
00:42:20
Speaker
What I do is exactly what you do. When you walk into a room with a new client, you listen hard, And you ask a lot of questions, you know, and hopefully you can use that information then to build a plan for this organization to find some success.
00:42:39
Speaker
Right. So on our side, obviously listening really hard to all these organizations and asking a lot of questions so we can make sure we're building things that, you know, can can solve more problems.
00:42:51
Speaker
Yeah, and I always say when it comes to that technology investment, um i I always like to tie it back. I think it's strongest with investing in people. That's what technology is. It's not investing in culture necessarily, because sometimes that can be a little broad, but and it's investing in people. That's what that cultural technology can do. It it helps elevate people's lives um and makes it easier for people in an organization. yeah.
00:43:14
Speaker
yeah All of these tech platforms collect lots of data. They produce tons of analytics. Sometimes leaders don't even know what to do with them.
00:43:25
Speaker
It monitors and measures tons and tons of different things. Are there signals or or indicators that leaders should be monitoring that are coming out of these
Focusing on Basic Tech for Insights
00:43:38
Speaker
platforms? I mean, how do you generally advise ah you know against these things, you know for or against these things? you Are there certain things you wish you could get from these tools that you don't see? Yeah.
00:43:50
Speaker
Well, you know I'm going to go back. I always try to simplify and clarify. It's it's basics. How do you get to that? You can have reports on everything up and down. you know i had 25-year career and you know hr and we had a lot of reporting that was coming out of our site. And I'm just like, okay, what do we do?
00:44:06
Speaker
ah yeah The numbers are meaningless. I don't know how we act on that number or what we do. So what I always tried to do, and I encourage organizations to think about with whatever technology solution they're using um is what are those basic things and how do you get your technology to report on that well so that you can act on it well? So one thing is, do you have a technology tool that helps with surveying and what's working, what's not working that you can address and you can measure those things over time or you know annually, whatever that is. So that's a key that's a key communication and feedback thing that I think technology can help with.
00:44:44
Speaker
um And it's it's critical that way. And that's a basic. I also think we talked a lot about performance management, ah managing performance and and reporting back on that at all levels, similar roles, that can be really helpful.
00:44:58
Speaker
And it's actionable um work that you can do when it comes to performance. And then if I had you know two other things, you know i I need to report back on why people are leaving or why people aren't joining. you know What are those two things? And ah you know those are actionable kind of coaching opportunities or intentional sort of changing and in the the direction of how we're doing something that can help. So that's what jumps to mind. you know Again, it's pretty basic, but sometimes organizations have a hard time with technology but even providing that well for them.
00:45:31
Speaker
Yeah, no I'd agree with that. and So aside from these tools, you know, tell me when you're working with when you're working with an organization, you've gone through several of the steps of your of your
Integrating Values into Practices
00:45:46
Speaker
framework. we've They've defined some of their values.
00:45:49
Speaker
They've identified leaders, right? there's you know we we We've gone through and we've knocked out a bunch of these steps, right? We're we're putting... We're taking action, right, to to put into place all these different things that we need to do in order to improve our organization in whatever ways that we've decided we have.
00:46:07
Speaker
At that point in time, what are you generally advising your clients on what they need to be monitoring over time when it comes to their people? Are there elements of these dynamics that you, you know,
00:46:19
Speaker
suggest or or recommend that they, um you know, be be monitoring just so these leaders can thrive and do right by all their folks. You know there's there's a lot. What we try to do when we build or intentionally change something or give a new direction in a culture, let's just start with values.
00:46:35
Speaker
Well, those values need to be woven into how you are recognizing people. And then you can sort of see what values are being recognized most, you know. So there are you have to build that in. You don't want to make it extra. That's what I always say.
00:46:48
Speaker
It sort of has to be a natural part of your culture so that you don't have to do a report on it. You can see it pretty alive in just what the process is, for example, in recognition.
00:46:59
Speaker
um As far as communication, that touch point. We always say, hey, if you're going to set up, ah we always say when it comes to communication, can there be just what's the most efficient way? Can there just be one agenda, one meeting agenda that everybody uses, period? So we know when we go into an ah any meeting, we're all using the same agenda.
00:47:19
Speaker
It's efficiency. um You measure it, whether they're using it or not. It's the best practice. so Again, it's that simplification and clarification. and That agenda is going to look different to your and very unique based on business or what needs to be covered, but there's some elements that need to be there. so That's what we always say as far as monitoring.
00:47:38
Speaker
We want to try to help organizations build on that. It's almost like that self-monitoring happens because it's a sustainable organizational practice. that they're seeing every day. So, you know, right away, whether somebody is living that or not living it, yeah because they're either doing it or they're not doing it.
00:47:55
Speaker
Yeah. I love that. um I have one more, one more thing. I always like to ask, I feel like we've covered so much ground.
Leaders Practicing Reflection
00:48:02
Speaker
There's a, there's a lot of snippets here that I think people really need to know and to hear.
00:48:08
Speaker
But um you know, if you have an entrepreneur, you have an executive, you who asks you for your your single most important piece of advice, right? You're on an elevator with them going to the top floor. And right before that door opens, right, you have just a moment to to tell them what they can do better as a leader when it comes to their people.
00:48:30
Speaker
What do you tell them? I would tell them to take a breath. That's would tell them. I like how you tied that back. Yeah. Well, no, I don't think people leaders breathe enough.
00:48:41
Speaker
um ah They're in the moment. They think they have to have all the right answers. So that kind of leads to you know one of the the moments that I think is really important for people leaders. And I would tell that executive,
00:48:53
Speaker
is that they need to that practice the pause idea um to take a moment to just be ah really aware of something before taking action. Sometimes I think people leaders think they have to solve it now.
00:49:04
Speaker
You need a moment. um And that starts with a breath, and then that's really that pause. So that's that's what I would say to that before the elevator open. And a lot of times that makes people go, oh, you know I was thinking, no, it comes down to, hey, we're living, breathing things. And And that we don't I don't think we breathe well enough um when we're leading in organizations.
Closing Remarks and Listener Engagement
00:49:23
Speaker
How's that? Sean, I think that we have so many more amazing conversations ahead of us. I think it was perfect. And I love that. And I really appreciate you joining me today. Your insights are really incredible. I can't wait for everybody to see this.
00:49:37
Speaker
um Thanks for having me um and the best to you and everything you're doing there with Mustard Hub and in the culture technology sphere. And um again, thanks for having me on today. Well, thanks to everyone else for tuning in to Mustard Hub Voices Behind the Build.
00:49:53
Speaker
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00:50:08
Speaker
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