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S2 Ep179: deltarune chapter 2
88 Plays4 years ago
FULL SPOILERS: deltarune chapter 2
MINOR SPOILERS: deltarune chapter 1, undertale
...you knew it was coming, right?
SoapstonePodcast@gmail.com
https://www.facebook.com/SoapstonePodcast/
MINOR SPOILERS: deltarune chapter 1, undertale
...you knew it was coming, right?
SoapstonePodcast@gmail.com
https://www.facebook.com/SoapstonePodcast/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Hosts and Episode
00:00:51
Speaker
How's it going, everyone? Welcome to another episode of Soapstone. My name is Jake, and I'm joined by my co-list is always Dave. How's it going tonight, Dave? Uh, it's going good. That's good. I am just hanging out. That's been the entire day. Hanging out. Down the street. Same old thing. Did last week.
00:01:13
Speaker
We're all right. We're all right. I remember the quarantine anthem being a little bit different, but yeah, that's fair.
Unique Release Strategy of Deltarune Chapter 2
00:01:24
Speaker
So anyways, we're talking about Deltarune.
00:01:27
Speaker
Yeah, can we get back to that? Yeah. So chapter two, we can finally talk about it. I know it's been slated for a while now. You beat this like you had to preorder copy somehow. You paid Toby Fox money, I think. Well, no, no, no. What happened is somebody posted, hey, Delta Ruins Chapter two is coming out tomorrow. I'm like, what? Because I'm not on Twitter.
00:01:48
Speaker
And it had been two years since, at least since chapter one. And I was like, holy fuck. So I'm like, well, this is what I'm doing tomorrow at 8 p.m. on a Friday. It was like, OK, cool. So I slated out the time it got released and then I shut off everything else and played it. And I did a normal run in like four ish hours. Yeah, it is kind of nice of Toby Fox, like
00:02:17
Speaker
Video games often release for the weekend or like Tuesday. I don't know. It's weird, but like a lot of times on the weekend and it is kind of hilarious that like a four hour runtime game also released, released for the weekend. It's like, you could just kind of like stay up a little late on Friday, but yeah, it's, it is good though. And it generates maximum, you know, everybody can play it, you know, have an opportunity to play it over the weekend.
00:02:44
Speaker
Yeah, it was really cool because it came out of nowhere. I didn't have that anticipation of like, I hope it's not delayed type thing. It's just like, hey, this thing's out. I'm like, what? Yeah, Toby Fox doesn't have to like answer to investors. So he there's really no incentive to
00:03:03
Speaker
let everyone know when the drop is going to be and then have to potentially delay it. He gets nothing from that. In fact, he doesn't even get money from this. So the running joke is like, how's Toby Fox making money? My theory is still licensing, but he's taken royalty off of all of the fan art that the Internet has made for his his games.
00:03:26
Speaker
He gets one penny of AdSense for every 10,000 likes on a YouTube video that involves Delta Rune chapter two.
Spoiler-Filled Dive into Deltarune Chapter 2
00:03:34
Speaker
Did you make a five second edit where you just took Spamton's face and put on some music? He gets that money. Yep. Straight to his pocket. This is the corporate overlord of the Undertale universe. Underverse? I don't know.
00:03:54
Speaker
I'm seeing eyes and I'm like, I realize it's not going to translate well in the podcast, but whatever the universe is that undertales in. But I did play it. I played this game yesterday. So I have fresh impressions and freshens, if you will. Where would you start? I mean, obviously we're full spoilers. It's a four hour long game. If you didn't read the description, that's on you at this point.
00:04:20
Speaker
Also, I feel that the people who really wanted to not be spoiled by Deltarune Chapter 2 would have played it by now. Yeah.
Why Starting with the Latest Entry is Unwise
00:04:28
Speaker
So if you're just listening, this episode is, should I get into Deltarune? Fuck off. Don't be here. Like, it's not for you. It's also not a series like that. You should really start at the most recent entry, I would argue. Like, there's not. Definitely not.
00:04:45
Speaker
It's not like it's a Far Cry game, really, but the graphics are so good in 6 compared to 2. It's all 8-bit, though. It's like, what are you going to do? To put this in the ghost in the shell terms, it's not standalone. That's actually a pretty good joke. Yeah, that's good.
Deltarune's Structure Compared to Undertale
00:05:08
Speaker
So that's, I think, one of the big other things, one of the big pieces of news
00:05:12
Speaker
So when Deltarune Chapter 1 came out, it was like, oh, we didn't know it was even a fucking game demo. It was like, hey, take this survey program.exe. People were like, okay, sure, I'll do a survey for Toby Fox. I love that guy. And it's like, hey, full fucking game. And the whole time you're playing it, you're like, is this, how long is this thing? And you were pleasantly surprised for a very long time. Like, holy fuck, it was an actual game.
00:05:39
Speaker
And then it was so hype. So when chapter two came out, you'd obviously know it's going to be about the same length. But the big thing at the main menu, right, is it's sort of chapter one, chapter two, and then five blank chapter slots. So we now have an idea of the roadmap of how many chapters there will be.
00:05:58
Speaker
And conveniently they correspond to a number of hearts from Undertale. Yeah. And we can actually even extrapolate at the current pace of development what it'll take for us to complete the full story. And it's a decade in human years. It's a race to the death with George RR Martin at this point. Yeah.
00:06:21
Speaker
Yeah, but but no, I mean, it is good to get a little bit more information. I mean, this type of series really thrives off of the the mystery of what's going on behind the scenes, leaving questions unanswered is.
00:06:36
Speaker
kind of its thing. I guess also. By the way, this is also how I did tests in college. Leaving questions unanswered. It's a mystery, Doc. I would slide the paper onto the professor's desk. I kind of like raised my eyebrows like, you figure it out. If you're so smart, prove it.
Unique Game Mechanics and Music Integration
00:06:57
Speaker
prove I don't know the answer. He's like, I think I just did. I think that's a good point. Oh, no. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, continuation of the universe. It's nice that I mean, obviously, after chapter one, we got a pretty good idea that
00:07:14
Speaker
things we're going to continue along and chapter two just solidifies it, right? Like there's still a pace to development. Toby Fox is not, perhaps does not even have laurels to rest on. We don't know what Fox's have, but, um, just keeping at it for development. Yeah.
00:07:33
Speaker
Anyways, so that's the game. Recommend it if you guys have any thoughts. So I think the other question that was immediately answered here that people had at the end of one is, where does it go from here?
00:07:50
Speaker
Obviously, it's safe to assume that it's going to continue from where it left off, but they could have kind of also done literally standalone piecemeal things just in universe, but shake it up again each time. Because as we know, certain characters exist in this universe that are also in the Undertale universe. Yeah. We don't know yet how they are related. I did get a strong piece of evidence, I think, playing through chapter two. That makes me think it is the same universe, though.
00:08:21
Speaker
And that evidence is, this is going to be useless. Like this is esoteric for the listeners who don't necessarily, maybe don't necessarily know as much, but there's a part where Asgore and Toriel are talking in a supermarket. And Asgore mentions that maybe he'll like, he'll stop by when Asriel comes back. And that basically places it somewhere on the timeline of
00:08:50
Speaker
the precursor events in Undertale, like before everything when Kara was around, when Azrael was missing as a flower, but before Frisk comes along. Potentially, that's what it looks like. So you're saying this happens, essentially, it is a prequel to Undertale.
00:09:20
Speaker
That would be my guess. It's a prequel to Undertale, but it's happened after Asriel is a flower. Oh, I guess spoilage for Undertale too, but it's been forever. Again, fuck them. Like you should know by now. You want to know by now. Um, hmm. I mean, I'm fine leaning the,
00:09:43
Speaker
It is a precursor route.
Evolution of Game Mechanics from Undertale to Deltarune
00:09:46
Speaker
Like I said, because of the seven slots and the seven hearts, um, and it also be like a cool tie-in. So then I'm wondering like which heart is then Chris's. Right. And where that all exactly fits in.
00:10:03
Speaker
Yeah, it doesn't fit it. Like, not everything slots in nicely with this theory. It's just one piece of evidence. Yes, yet. That we're working on. And I mean, there's certain characters here that don't really make any sort of splash. Like, they don't really exist in Undertale, the old game. Are there any characters in the Darkner worlds that are actually present?
00:10:32
Speaker
in Undertale, the original game. I don't think so. I'm going to say a blanket no. So maybe that's another piece of evidence then, right? Because they can't exist outside of it. I mean, possibly. I think any of the Undertale overlap characters would have been in the overworld or the real world.
00:10:55
Speaker
Hmm. Cause my theory, this is my, my working fan theory is that, um, whoever this person is, I can't remember their name, uh, we're all say is, I mean, obviously an anagram for Azrael. Um, but also actually as real. Um, and they aren't a darkner. They are from the outer world. That's the reason that it doesn't matter when they go between worlds.
00:11:24
Speaker
We're jumping like to level. I know. I know. I know. It's like incomprehensible to listening. Somebody's like, oh, chapter two. I heard their thoughts on like the new music, the new area. We're like, all right, here's the theory about the next seven chapters. So let's put a pin that and come back to it because I do want to hit it for multiple reasons. Ooh, laminate it. We're coming back, dear listeners. Do not worry. So obviously chapter two takes place in the library, Dark World.
00:11:54
Speaker
What were you expecting going in? Were you expecting a continuation of kind of the style of chapter one?
00:12:02
Speaker
Yeah, I guess something, something to that effect. I didn't expect massive changes between chapter one and two. Like these are just different chapters and a new series Delta rune. Um, so I didn't expect massive changes, just, you know, a lot of the continuation
Role of Music and Themes in Gaming Experience
00:12:22
Speaker
of the story, right? Like, uh, half-life, any other game that's been released episodically, you want to see what the next thing is. Um, and that's really what I was going in hoping for.
00:12:32
Speaker
So to elaborate on the question a little bit, like, were you expecting the same type of style or were you expecting new music, new mechanics? Right. I guess, honestly, more the same, probably, is what I was expecting. And I think that's largely the case. I mean, I can't recall exactly. It's been two years since I played Chapter One.
00:12:56
Speaker
So, if you have a better memory of some of the differences between them. Oh, babe, you know I do. You know I do. All right, so here's the segue. I'll just push it over in your direction. I just unplugged Jake's mic. All right, so listen. The battle mechanics are still the same for how that operates, where you still use your heart to dodge enemy combat for how, I don't want to say projectiles, but
00:13:19
Speaker
for whatever happens in the box. Yeah, hazards. Still the same. And then how you act or do combat is still the same as chapter one.
00:13:30
Speaker
Right. It's just the locale has changed. And then they'll add some other things. But they'll also still have area hazards as well, where you're not in active combat, but maybe something is shooting projectiles and you need to have your party dodge. Yeah. And it will let you know, hey, your red heart's showing, don't get hit by shit. That's kind of your indicator.
00:13:54
Speaker
Yeah, you're translucent, tell, hey, the equivalent of your health bar or your hitbox actually is where that really is, which is nice. It's a little bit of visual storytelling or visual mechanics conveyance, which I think is really useful and very helpful in a game when you don't want to overcomplicate things. Yeah.
00:14:20
Speaker
It's nice. And they also added, like, as soon as you get to cyber world, you still enter the same way where you kind of like slide down a hill. But then they kind of add like this almost rhythm game mechanic that ties along with the music for dodging certain things. Again, with like the area hazards and then some of the boss fights as well.
00:14:43
Speaker
How did you feel about that stuff and the teacups? Yeah, I was going to say, so the teacups are a little obnoxious with an Xbox controller until I realized I should be using the D-pad. Don't use the stick. It's not reliable by comparison at all. Or maybe the Xbox controller. He played on an Xbox controller, not keyboard mouse. I mean, it worked pretty well.
00:15:06
Speaker
But yeah, D-pad also worked fine. I do like any part of the game where you're going to sync up the tempo of the action with the music. And there's a few points in here where it's very deliberately explicit. I do enjoy that. So it was actually funny because, as I'm sure we'll get to eventually, I did a second playthrough where I used Cheat Engine to speed everything up.
00:15:33
Speaker
And there are certain segments there where so the music doesn't speed up, just the game. But in any time that the game was explicitly synced to the music,
00:15:44
Speaker
it wasn't sped up by cheat engine. That mechanic wasn't. So there's a part where you're supposed to dodge these dropping bars. And as I was using cheat engine with a speed hack, I just like zoomed right past it and all the bars are just moving at normal speed because they're linked up to the music, which is normal speed.
00:16:04
Speaker
That's cool. Which I thought was kind of funny. I mean, obviously, I don't know if you give credit or not for that, because it's literally not playing the game the way it's intended, but it was a funny outcome. Well, it's just like a little nice touch of immersion, kind of like Crypt of the Necrodancer. I'm paying attention to the music because it's needed for the mechanic. Yeah. So just ties in. Also, cyber world stuff is very
00:16:30
Speaker
upbeat and nice. I like that area theme a lot. I will say though, I did not like the theme of the three robot brothers. Yeah, I like their characters fine. But out of all of the music in chapter two, I think it is the worst theme. Yeah, I'm having difficulty even necessarily recalling it. So I guess it didn't have that much of an impression on me.
00:16:59
Speaker
Were there any that did stand out to you? No, that's the worst possible way to say it. My disheartened face. As I've had like the LST on the loop for a bit. Yeah, I don't know the names of all the tracks, but the boss fight with Giant Mecha Lady.
00:17:18
Speaker
It was pretty great. It was on the lady classic. It's queen. It's queen. It's queen. But it's by far it felt like the stand out on the soundtrack for me. It was just really hype, upbeat, energetic. It wasn't like frenetic, like megalovania from Undertale. But oh my God, no, it was still really, really good. It was super hype for the moment.
00:17:48
Speaker
I got lots of F0 vibes. And also, this is towards the end of the game where you have that fight. So you're ramping on, this is the final conclusion fight, so it gets you really amped up.
Innovative Boss Fight Mechanics
00:17:59
Speaker
And it's obviously more interactive than some of the other fights, because you're going back to that punch out thing. Yeah, it's literally punch out mechanics, dodge left, right, punch.
00:18:10
Speaker
Um, which is good. I mean, so you're talking about like the evolution or what was different or the same in the mechanics and how you're more vulnerable during certain like hazard areas, even when you weren't fighting an enemy. But this is like a non-standard fight, right? Like there was places in Undertale where they played around with going outside of
00:18:29
Speaker
Literally outside of the box outside of the box. Yes But it was all for that dodging hazards like For the most part it wasn't like to attack and in this one. It's like there is no box. There is no heart. You're just in a big Voltron versus you know the enemy Voltron. Yeah, I Play punch out. I really like any time it gets
00:18:53
Speaker
the box gets subverted. The first time in Undertale that really stood out to me is the Pirace fight, where it's like, hey, you have to jump over these things and you can't move around freely. You always have gravity. Like, okay, cool. I remember this.
00:19:08
Speaker
And then you go to jump over something, you're like, oh, that's too high. So instinctually, you just hold up as anybody would or you hold jump for like, maybe I'll get extra height. And then you keep ascending and you get like the super jump. You're like, oh, that's really cool. And like the box expands to meet that as well. Yeah. And then you're like, oh, what's happening? And it's inverted and it's it's fun and new. Yeah. And I feel like some of the boss fights had a similar feel to where it's like.
00:19:32
Speaker
Toby Fox is like, OK, we've done this. We've moved the box around a little bit. Let's move the box entirely and do something else. Yeah.
00:19:39
Speaker
And it's like really cool to see that design and like the moving cityscape. I was like, oh, shit. Like they really fucked around with it. And yeah, it's a lot more graphical effort to have like a parallax like effect while you're on the street and stuff like that for the fight. It's it's a lot. It's it's clearly a lot down the street. Yeah, shitty. I'll do it again next week.
00:20:06
Speaker
I'm not at all right. Yeah. But yeah, the level of effort musically, graphically, you know, it meets it meets the standards of set forth by the Undertale franchise, which is, you know, it would be hard to phone it in. Like, I guess I should qualify what I'm saying there. I'm saying is like,
00:20:36
Speaker
It would be hard to exceed it, actually, is more accurate, right? Like the very nature of these games is it's like you're used to how this looks visually. We're going to mix it up. You're used to how the combat works. We're going to mix it up. We didn't just design a mechanic and then we just stuck with it. It's kind of like the not two souls. What was the co-op game we played recently? It was strictly co-op, husband, wife.
00:21:06
Speaker
Oh my god. We had an episode on it. Oh my gosh. I can't remember. I'm unfortunately blacking. I'm going to look on Spotify. All right. I'll just buy you some time. But it was like that game, in a way, where as soon as a mechanic begins to become stale, as soon as it's a little bit predictable, you're just like, I'm in a bullet hell game. I'm dodging the projectiles. I'm building energy. I'm using powerful attacks. Or not, in the case of a spare playthrough.
00:21:34
Speaker
They mix it up. They change things. It takes two, by the way. That's right. Yeah, it takes two. And yeah, that novelty persists through this and the writing is really strong, too. Yeah, like I always expect the same type of visual style for it to be that simplistic, pixelized,
00:22:00
Speaker
not like going into the screen type thing. So it's easier to subvert that because of how low it is expecting graphically. But the writing is also always on par. I've not played an entry in this universe where I've been like, oh, this feels wildly different or bad. When the little jokes happen,
00:22:27
Speaker
It really, it fills my heart with such warmth. Like, I loved watching other people play it again. Like when you got to the, oh, but you told me you were a gamer. And she goes, Birdly, I only play mobile games. And he's like, no. It's great in context as well. But also, if you're somebody who plays games, yeah, you'll usually take some degree of egress if somebody's like, oh, I'm a gamer too. I play Flappy Bird. And you're like,
00:22:55
Speaker
Ah, so it just it fit really well. And they have lots of moments like that that are really charming or on the nose or it's just dumb Toby Fox stuff of just like a sentence like you appreciate the craftsmanship of these cardboard boxes. Right. Exactly. And like they can reuse stuff like that. It's just like throw away jokes almost, but it's still in that style of that feel. Yeah. And then, of course, as I'm now rambling,
00:23:25
Speaker
This is your time,
Character Interactions and Humor
00:23:27
Speaker
Dave. This episode is for you. Time to shine.
00:23:32
Speaker
the whole interaction of nobody likes Birdly because he's annoying as fuck. So Noelle is like, I'm trying not to get murdered by the Queen lady. Could we like team up? And she's like, oh, shit, Queen's coming. And then Queen's like, hey, we should team up. And it's like, oh, fuck, Birdly's coming. And the bird is like, I don't know what else is. We should team up. Like that whole interaction. Oh, great.
00:23:58
Speaker
Yeah, and everybody's hiding in the same alleyway. Spider-Man ask up the wall. It's literally over the top like dumb comedic thing, but it fits. It's essentially like an undertale when you hide behind the lamp that is shaped exactly like the player character. Yeah, right. Like it's that type of humor.
00:24:20
Speaker
It's like it's meant for like dumb TV sitcom type thing. It's like that joke would only work in TV where you as the audience get it. You're like, how do the people in the show not see that thing? Yeah, there is. I'm not. I have to literally look up the definition of this to see if it's.
00:24:41
Speaker
So the term that came to mind was like vaudeville comedy. Um, and it's not a complete fit. I don't think that it really necessarily, uh, fits exactly, but the, the mixture of music, comedy and, um, upbeat tones basically is very common in Undertale. It's not a complete fit. It's got to be something else, but it's almost like, um,
00:25:06
Speaker
It's some sort of ongoing comedy skit, like you said. And just so much of this is just core gameplay. There's a line running all the way through. You've got that. And then literally just injecting comedy skits along the path. Yeah, it is a lot of those.
00:25:28
Speaker
And what I think helps with this for this time around, because like Queen is like your ongoing antagonist throughout chapter two. Whereas the Chaos King in chapter one, like it was kind of like Asgore in a way, where it's like, hey, there's this mysterious dark figure you have to encounter at some point. You're cool. And then you do at the end. Whereas Queen is constantly running around being like LOLXD, I'm evil, but also
00:25:56
Speaker
very slapstick and almost road-runnery, not road-runnery, wild eke, coyote, kind of about it. Yeah. She's like almost successful. She plays the boundary of being like too powerful to actually fight, but like never actually being capable of stopping you. Um, always ahead of you, but never utilizing it. Things like that.
00:26:18
Speaker
Oh yeah, entirely that. I think we talked about it a little bit earlier, but she had reminded me a lot of Mettaton from Undertale. But Mettaton is kind of, other than the dialogue and the singing scene and some other standout moments, isn't really its own character in a way. It's kind of just a boss that you see in advance.
00:26:45
Speaker
mechanically, whereas Queen has a lot more of a presence, I think, throughout the game. It's really good. It's a very popular trope to introduce the antagonist early and then continually remind you that the antagonist is there in front of you.
00:27:04
Speaker
And you get completely different effects. If you do something like the Asgore approach where they're mentioned and then perhaps mentioned again, but they're this looming dark figure on the horizon and the unknown evil that must be overcome versus the one that's just memeing on you through the entirety of the game. And that's who Queen is. Yeah, it's much more of a, who's the guy from the Smurfs?
00:27:30
Speaker
I'm going to go with Papa Smurf or Gargamel. Gargamel. Right. So he's constantly like an evil figure and he has evil intentions. But his presence, from what I remember briefly, this is actually before my time, was always very I don't want to say slapstick, but it was never like came across as too much of a threat. Right. Mm hmm.
00:27:53
Speaker
It's like high potential threat, low actual. Yeah. Because he's like, I'm going to eat Smurfs. And they're like, that's terrifying. And then never succeeds. Exactly. Like, it's just that, oh, that's really dark. It's like Queen's whole motive is like she wants to replace people's face with like robot faces. That's actually kind of terrifying on a level of like Five Nights at Freddy's type deal. Yeah. But throughout like the whole time, you're not getting that vibe.
00:28:20
Speaker
Because she says at some point crisscross applesauce. That's her fucking vibe, right? Yeah. Or just like. And her design. And even about shit. With like, she has a display kind of like Ruiner, where like a word or short phrase will show up. So it's like when she's trying to deceive Birdie to say that she's interested in something. Birdly. Birdly, sorry.
00:28:43
Speaker
trying to do something he's trying to do something have her tag along or whatever she's just like sure i'd be happy to come with you and it just says lying on her face which i mean it's very on the nose but like
00:28:57
Speaker
The type of humor that Toby Fox conveys is there's usually like a level of purity to it that children I think would enjoy as much as adults do. It kind of just like cuts through that age boundary. And it's just like, oh, that's actually kind of hilarious. I gotcha.
00:29:15
Speaker
Yeah, some of the things are so straightforward and simple, but they work on all levels. Going back to Undertale, the first time you meet Sans and you get the whole whoopee cushion type thing, right? Farts are funny, right? They're just universally funny. Yeah. So he'll do other approaches like that and it's just,
00:29:40
Speaker
It's good. It's good. And it's the same, the same comment we made in the original Undertale, but the music is tied like intrinsically to the tone. Like a fart joke on its own would be fine. Um, depending on the presentation, potentially great. But when it's tied with like the music being completely cut out until the joke executes and then a really lighthearted track comes on. There you go. Right.
00:30:05
Speaker
But this is also after something really dark and like impactful. Yeah, exactly. We had like the bum bum of like undertale. You're like, oh, shit, this is the game. And you're getting into it. And it's like, we're kidding. Come on in. Right. Yeah. It's you show to like a kid's birthday party and it's like, all right, you can come in. But first you must kill a child. And you're like, what? No, I'm like, no, I'm just kidding.
00:30:29
Speaker
We got tons of kids in here, don't have to kill anyone. 30 kids are invited. 15, we'll leave. I'm sure we'll get to some of the, I wouldn't say tonal inconsistencies, but range that the game can provide tonally. It maintains a very heavy range.
00:30:51
Speaker
Not disagreeing on that. I did want to ask, though, are there any other characters you want to highlight from chapter two? Namely, the big ones are obviously going to be Queen, Spamton, G Spamton, Noel and Birdly are the big new additions. Right. I mean, I actually don't hate Birdly. I know that he's meant to be kind of. I mean, he's annoying as fuck, but the character. He's so good as what he has.
Character Development: Focus on Birdly
00:31:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:17
Speaker
And a lot of it, like, so Toby Fox will use different animations for this one for different like facial expressions. It existed in Undertale as well. Burger Guy, very classical example of standard animations. The one where he looks like he's high in particular, I think is one a lot of people remember.
00:31:36
Speaker
Um, but birdly has this one scrunched up face animation where he's just like being sarcastic or like it's his laughing at his own joke. It's pure smug. Yeah. The impression he gets, but it just looks like his face is just compressing it on itself. Um, and I can't help but laugh at it like every time.
00:31:56
Speaker
That's really good. I think he actually has the best face animations in this game, like as far as getting a rise out of me, making me appreciate it. Very emotive.
00:32:10
Speaker
Yeah, and he actually has like character development too, so like he needs the range, whereas Noel still arguably has character development through one of the rhymes. Every time you see her face, it's always very wholesome.
00:32:27
Speaker
or innocent. And I think that's how she's designed as to you want to feel not pity for her, but you want to see her stand up for herself. Right. Because she's so sweet and wholesome. You're like, please just say fuck and punch someone in the face once. Yeah.
00:32:46
Speaker
To a certain extent, she's the damsel in this game. Literally the first one kidnapped, forcibly conscripted into Queen's army. But since this is a Toby Fox game, the relationship is much more of mutual respect and care than actual conscription.
00:33:09
Speaker
So yeah, I mean, he, that's what he does though. He, he takes, he takes tropes. He takes the hero's journey. He does things like that. And then he just like tweaks it a little bit. He's like, what if the bad guys aren't bad and the good guys could be bad. And you know, the choices you make along the way are the friends you made along the way, the friends. Yeah, literally. Um, yeah.
00:33:35
Speaker
Who's a stand out character for you? You've been asking all the questions so far. My time to shine. I really like all of them.
00:33:47
Speaker
I would say almost equally, but it probably plays Spamton at the lowest cause he has at least interaction with him. Yeah. Like he very cool as a novel character is being memed a ton online. Um, I would need to do the secret boss fight to probably fully appreciate him and get all of that lore. Right. So cool. But I like birdly for being birdly and he's fun to shit on and his music's great.
00:34:16
Speaker
And he's such a tryhard. All of Queen's stuff is great. I love all of her music. He uses a pole axe in combat too, an energy pole axe. It's called Halberd, by the way. Which I thought was cute. And then Noelle, I really like because she's sweet. Oh, I just got it. Oh, geez. Oh, you just got the Halberd? I just got it, yeah. All right, that's fair. He says in one of the dialogue lines in the fight, I'm like, oh, OK, yeah.
00:34:44
Speaker
But I also really like Noel because of the alternate route, because you get to see that other side of her. Right. Do you want to talk alternate? Yeah, let's talk about alternate route. So Undertale.
Exploring Darker Themes in Noelle's Arc
00:34:58
Speaker
had an interesting mechanic and the opposite of it was basically on the box. I don't know if it was ever in a box, but it was on the Steam summary page. And it was like a game where you don't have to kill anyone, something to that effect, which was great. Neutral run was forced the first time, but in subsequent runs, you could go like true pacifist or you could go genocide.
00:35:27
Speaker
which is pretty dark in what is otherwise a relatively lighthearted kids game about friends and family. And since then, I don't know if Toby Fox always has his heart in it or not. We could talk a little bit about that, but he's continued this trend of underlying potentially dark themes. And that is the arc Noelle can take center stage on in chapter two.
00:35:57
Speaker
I want to have a brief mention because this was actually something that was skipped in chapter one. Yes. Chapter one was fully wholesome outside of like the chaos king being relatively bad, quotes, air quotes. And I guess Jevil as like a secret boss was also kind of evil, but in like more of a zany, chaotic way. It wasn't really like that dark tone that we got from genocide until the very end of chapter one.
00:36:24
Speaker
where you see some interesting interactions with Chris, and you're kind of like, hmm. He's the imposter. Yeah. Vote him out. But in chapter two, you obviously have the neutral route, and you can be nice and recruit the enemies and all happy fun times.
00:36:44
Speaker
But specifically in this one, it's not a genocide route as much as when you team up with Noelle and she's part of your party, you can have her freeze enemies. That's really her only—I mean, she can auto attack, but she kind of like flails her arm and it deals like variable damage.
00:37:04
Speaker
Because she gets pulled into the dark world. The whole thing's new for her. She doesn't know what's going on. She doesn't want to be there necessarily. So she's just kind of along for the ride. But you, as Chris, again, lose air quotes there, can tell her to proceed with certain interactions. And you always have her freeze the enemies. And it gets progressively darker because
00:37:29
Speaker
you see you get to see her inner monologue of like her questioning what's going on. But then she doesn't have memory of all of her actions, but she's like, Oh, it's fine. I'm getting stronger. I trust Chris. Yeah. And like you see this
00:37:43
Speaker
I don't wanna say predatory relationship, but it is very much like Chris is kind of controlling her and egging her on to do things that are questionable. Like when you get the ring that increases your freeze power. Lie a lot by the way.
00:38:02
Speaker
There's two rings you get, one doubles your damage, the other one quadruples it, it's insane. When you tell her to get the ring that you don't have money for, you just keep repeating, get it, or proceed. It's get the ring, or go get it, go get it, go get it.
00:38:24
Speaker
And then she kind of freaks out like, fine, I'll get it. And then it kind of flashes white. And then you don't see the shopkeeper anymore, and you have the ring. And then she kind of debates like, oh, I don't know what happened, but I guess he gave us the ring? And she's making these justifications in her head. Yeah.
00:38:43
Speaker
Arguably really dark because it's not it's not an overt evil. It's a much more close to home Oh, anybody can kind of justify an evil action in their head. Yeah type thing and not easily dissociates through like a lot of this with the justification and
00:39:03
Speaker
And the game the game gives you like a couple hints. So I had to literally look this up. I would never have found this otherwise. Also, we'll throw that out there. But people people do figure this stuff out. And usually when you're fighting enemies, when you defeat them, they run away and you get the message you get stronger or something like that. And if in a specific condition that an enemy is finished off by Noel freezing them, it says Noel gets stronger. And that's actually the first hint.
00:39:33
Speaker
But also they stay frozen in the overworld, which is usually they're absent. And then there's special dialogue. If you go backwards when you get Noelle for the first time, where she's like, where are we going? Where are we going? And usually if a game throws anything different at you, it's a sign that you're experiencing a new path, new route, new content. So that's your tell. It's really smart. It doesn't hand hold it, but it gives you like a little clues that you're on a different route.
00:40:02
Speaker
Also, I think people probably found this out through trial and error, but if you, let's say you freeze the first enemy by accident, you didn't know about this possible router mechanic, and they stay frozen, cool. You now know that they're there. And then if you go kill another enemy and you don't freeze them, so you kill them with either Chris or Noelle or you spare them,
00:40:25
Speaker
The route is immediately done and that frozen enemy won't stay there any longer. Whereas if you continue to freeze them, they will stay and you can continue on that. It's kind of like that reinforcement of, hey, this is a separate thing. Yeah. There's also apparently a musical note, like upbeat music or not upbeat. There's a sound effect. Yeah. There's like high sounds and low sounds, but it's a high sound if you ever leave the route.
00:40:54
Speaker
which you can do at certain like dialogue junctions. Anytime you decide to say something other than like proceed or just do it like the Nike spokesman or something like that, you'll get the sound and the routes abandoned, which you can do up until the birdie fight.
00:41:14
Speaker
Yeah, and the big thing there is when you run into Birdly, when you run into the normal route, I wasn't going to throw under the bus that time. When you do the normal thing, he comes up to you, he's like, hey, what's going on? When you have your interaction, then you get into a fight for that encounter. But when you do it through this route,
00:41:40
Speaker
she's like she kind of has her eyes closed and she's like oh chris is it another enemy do you want me to deal with them and then like opens her eyes and she's like oh it's birdly yeah um she has to snap her out of it basically yeah so like she's already in that mindset and then if you use the ability snow grave and
00:42:03
Speaker
frees him solid as like a character. And she resists it. Yeah. That's the other dark part is like you get that when you get the thorn ring, which is the second ring you were talking about. Snowgrave. Otherwise, it's impossible to cast because it takes too much special TP to like actually cast. But she legitimately, when you first try to use it after you max out your TP bar, she's like, I don't know that spell.
00:42:26
Speaker
And you have to just click it again. And she's like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Well, yeah, each time that you have to do something to force Noelle forward, it's not just like, do this thing. It's like you essentially pushing her into it. You're like, do it. Do it. Proceed. Even on the annoying mouse puzzles, right?
00:42:49
Speaker
You literally like back her into a corner and you keep saying like proceed and then she kind of disassociates white flash and then the whole puzzle is frozen and you don't have to do it. So in the same way, she freezes birdly solid and then kind of like disassociates and fucks off for the rest of the game.
00:43:12
Speaker
I do like her line, like before she freezes him, the final confirmation thing. She's just like, that's like fine. If you want to see what happens when I cast a spell, I don't know. Then I'll do it and causes this blizzard and freezes badly.
00:43:30
Speaker
So at this point in the game, you're like, oh, okay, right? And then you don't see barely for the rest of the thing, you don't see no more for the rest of the thing. And then when you leave the dark world, if you remember from the normal route, people wake up in the lab, they're like, oh, what happened? Oh, I guess we fell asleep while studying LOL, and then they leave. But this time,
00:43:51
Speaker
Birdly does not wake up, so we don't know if he's unconscious or something else. But this is like the first time that in the Deltarune universe, we're seeing something fairly dark happen to a character in the actual world.
00:44:11
Speaker
And it's worth noting, like it's it is heavily implied that he's dead. I fought him. And when he wakes up, he says, like, I was like, oh, that's weird. I can't move my arm because presumably his arm was injured in the fight. Unless there was something else. The route you went for the one I watched because you were aggressive and combative throughout and you didn't save Birdly from Queen, right? He had to literally rip.
00:44:37
Speaker
He had to use his own will to like rip off the control mask. And then that kind of exploded and it hurt his arm. Gotcha. Right. So that's why you saw that. But that tells you, you know, injuries sustained in the dark world affect lighteners and light world. So, yeah, being frozen to a solid block, probably not good for your health. Yeah. So it's it's kind of wild. Yeah.
00:45:07
Speaker
There was apparently some other stuff I missed, like you can find her in the hospital, Noel, in the hospital later, and she's like talking to her dad. And she doesn't really like it if you approach. And a weird route is apparently what it's called in the files, but the dark route. But she recognizes your voice
00:45:32
Speaker
um as this like it's it's not chris's voice talking to her anymore it's someone else's which again calls back to like undertale player versus player character yeah relationship and i will say in that route she notices air quotes chris first whereas if you do a different route she notices susie first because susie is her crush right right also in the normal route if you go and visit her and her dad in the hospital
00:46:02
Speaker
It's a fairly normal interaction where they're playing a game together. But in the weird route, she doesn't want to relinquish control of the game to her dad because she's struggling with that control. Yeah. And wanting to have the control.
00:46:23
Speaker
And I read this, this is like a very minor thing, but you know, another little change. But she uses like a fire ability, apparently on the normal route. And the weird route she uses an ice ability. Again, reinforcing that she is Elsa, obviously. This is a great crossover. Let it snowgrave a classic.
00:46:45
Speaker
Oh, yeah. And Snowgrave, the description for the spell actually says it has a tag on it fatal. Yeah, which is pretty metal. And if you if if Chris goes down, so Birdly won't ever attack her until Chris goes down in combat. But if Chris goes down, he's like.
00:47:04
Speaker
birdlies like chris is down like you're free like you know you don't have to keep fighting and she's like no i can still hear his voice you're like oh yeah the whole thing gets kind of kind of wild um yeah
00:47:22
Speaker
But I love that. See, so I'm an edgelord, right? Like I play Sephiroth, play Dark Knight in Final Fantasy. Like I love all of that stuff.
Theories About Ralsei's Character
00:47:32
Speaker
And at the same time, like I appreciate in the moment some of these arcs, but at the same time, Toby Fox also makes them so dark at times. I'm uncomfortable because I'm an edgelord. But I also just.
00:47:47
Speaker
don't like hurting people, even if they're, you know, fake video game people sometimes, if there's any sort of emotional connection there. And these games are good at that. Yeah, they like everything's very happy-go-lucky. OK, let's let's tangent back to the laminate and I don't know how you undo laminate a knife. Yep.
00:48:15
Speaker
That's a segue on its own, right? But basically with that, like everything's very lighthearted. Ralsei is a very upbeat, happy character known as Cute Goat Boy to the community, right? But throughout multiple points in the game, we find out when darkners leave their world.
00:48:34
Speaker
Because this is the first time we're in a second dark world. We have the case of Lancer. We have the case of Rules Card. We see them turn to stone. The explanation being they are in a different dark world and they can't really sustain it unless they're by the fountain or something else. Yeah.
00:48:50
Speaker
But we see Ralsei, who's from chapter one, from that dark world, chilling in chapter two, not given two fucks. Yeah, the whole time. What's up with that? What is up with that? Very suspicious. The other thing, at the end of the normal route, I guess either route, Ralsei invites Queen back to the dark world from chapter one, which again, Ralsei, the character themselves, has explained the rules that
00:49:17
Speaker
Darkeners cannot go between worlds without side effects right and just kind of willy-nilly like yeah, just come back to our place Suspicious and also very suspicious Queens rooms not finished
00:49:31
Speaker
in that route. Ralsei never finishes making the room for her, which, compared to all their advocacy evidence, not super meaningful potentially. But if you just expect this character to turn to stone and be a statue, why would you prepare the room for them anyways? Yeah. But also, if Ralsei is expecting her to be a statue, what is their intention with that? Right. Well, probably just to mislead
00:50:00
Speaker
I guess maybe to make it... We don't really know Ralsei's intent here because Ralsei does want you to close. So the mechanic is there's these dark fountains that can be created by a lightener if they stab the ground with their soul knife or whatever it is. And Ralsei wants you to close the other fountains.
00:50:27
Speaker
not the one that he's in. But he doesn't want you in general to close the fountains, right? And we don't really know exactly what that means. He says it's to avoid basically the apocalypse, but there's no reason to trust him. Like negative reason to trust him. Well, I mean,
00:50:47
Speaker
It's just you're, you only know the information you provided. So if you said like, Hey, it was this thing and be bad, you're like, okay, I'm not going to do the thing that'll be bad. Yeah. That's fair enough assumption. But now like.
00:51:00
Speaker
Mistrust and misgivings are now introduced in chapter two. Yeah. What's up with that? We don't know. Also, two very suspicious characters who seem to have separate intents in chapter two. Ralte. And the protagonist. So speaking of the protagonist, the other really dark thing at the end of chapter two, regardless of which route you take, is
Dark Narrative Twist Involving Chris
00:51:22
Speaker
Chris and Susie go back to their house. Toriel teaches Susie how to make a pie, and it's really cute and wholesome. And I was like loving it as like this. So we end chapter two and then Chris goes into the bathroom, turns on the sink, music stops entirely, rips out his heart, throws it on the cupboard, jumps out the window, disappears for a while and then comes back in. So this is like a zombie like movements through this entire thing.
00:51:50
Speaker
Yeah, this is like, I don't want to use any type of Kingdom Hearts time, but like the Heartless Chris, which we saw like at the end of chapter one briefly, because like the heart gets thrown into the cage as like kind of an association between player and player character again, where like you essentially are the heart.
00:52:12
Speaker
You find out from Toriel calling the cops that the tires have been slashed for their car, and that's why she wants the kids to sleep over because she's worried, and she's asking for the cops to come over and check things out, make sure everything's okay. And then Chris wakes up in the middle of the night, takes out a fucking knife, and makes a new dark world in the fucking living room. Which- Then gets back on the couch and-
00:52:38
Speaker
Basically replaces the heart covers for it essentially. So it's essentially like
00:52:44
Speaker
the body of Chris is a completely separate entity, which is acting as the night creating these dark worlds. And that's info we have at this point. Again, lots of questions, but it's a Toby Fox game. So they'd like never answer all of them. What is the gaster blaster? Who knows? Um, what is that thing at the bottom of town where it's like a door that you can't enter, but it sounds super creepy. Yeah.
00:53:12
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, we won't get the answers, like I said, for another decade, but it is a very interesting experience going through it, I think.
00:53:23
Speaker
So I do have some thoughts as a comparison to Undertale. I think overall, there's no reason not to play these games. They're good. They're free except for Undertale, which is cheap. And I should spend money. It stands. Whenever we have that episode, I will buy you the fucking game. But if you've listened to this episode, you should have already played it by this point.
00:53:46
Speaker
Yeah, this is basically ultra spoilers. We went even further than we ever have. Even further beyond. Yeah, for spoilers than any other Undertale game. But all of that being said, great music, great plot. I like all of that. I don't know how I feel about the episodic format. And by that, I mean, if this kind of just wasn't released
00:54:16
Speaker
Like I get this, there's a large story that Toby Fox wants to tell and breaking it out episodically is the only way to make it not a JRPG length title, but...
00:54:33
Speaker
It's hard to remember everything between the chapters for me, at least, you know, if you go two years each way and none of them have the same narrative consistency in a given chapter that Undertale had as a standalone game. What do you, I want you to explain that last bit or elaborate on that. So like, because.
00:54:55
Speaker
It's the same issue like any game that allows you to kind of import your choices has. It's like, are you a, is this a genocide playthrough? Is this a pacifist playthrough? Are you being nice to people or are you being a jerk?
00:55:12
Speaker
Toby Fox has to funnel people in a lot of ways into a relatively common path, which would involve diluting something like a traditional genocide playthrough in Undertale, where everybody's dead by the end of it, basically, except Kara. And so because of that, you have to be able to play the next chapter, regardless of what choices you made here.
00:55:37
Speaker
And I feel like that does keep, it essentially is tying his hands a little bit for what he could do with the subversive route or the dark route. He kind of has to assume that at the end of the day, the consequences of what you do largely funnel into a more passive, upbeat, happy route.
00:55:58
Speaker
Um, I haven't checked to ver- I assume that what you're saying is true. I haven't checked to verify if you did have a genocide playthrough in chapter one, which wasn't necessarily- It wasn't really a thing. Yeah. As far as like impact, if that would carry over. Um, or maybe chapter two is the introduction of that possibility. I don't know. Right. Mm-hmm. But yeah, it does make it a lot harder to stitch together.
00:56:25
Speaker
Still possible. But I do like that it's episodic to avoid what you're saying of the JRPG thing. Because it's like, hey, here's Deltarune. It has 10 chapters and it's a 40 hour game.
00:56:40
Speaker
I would love being able to play it binge that much, but it's definitely going to take away some of the impact of it's been two years since game came out. Let's talk about what was added, what questions were answered, what questions were introduced and a kind of theory craft and build that part of the community aspect of it.
00:56:59
Speaker
it's like riding like these waves of like hype like there's a new thing and then everybody gets back on board and it's great and then we're all hyped and then there's like time for like okay nothing news come out for a bit play some other games oh my god there's a new chapter and we get to relive all of that excitement right
00:57:19
Speaker
I think it's, for me at least, maybe it's a personal thing, but I don't know if I've ever played an episodic game where I preferred it being episodic, right? Like when we went back and played Wolf Among Us, the reason it was a tolerable experience was because, I mean, not tolerable, would have been a fine experience in any case.
00:57:36
Speaker
But being able to play straight through makes it much more palatable than if you had like a mandatory stop. And I think Delta Rune is ultimately going to be in the same position, right? Like somebody who plays through this front to back seven episodes 20 years from now.
00:57:54
Speaker
you know, when Toby Fox's grandchildren complete the series, like that's not how generations work. I know it's still rapid growth in Fox. I don't know how long it takes to Fox to mature. I was gonna say germinate, but that's the wrong word. There's a word for it though. Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is
00:58:18
Speaker
individually, none of them will have the same impact that Undertale had. And I think it's basically impossible because they're all, to a certain extent, fractured into their own little shorter storyline. That's kind of like a Goosebumps episode. Like it has to exist a little bit on its own. Well, yeah, they're definitely
00:58:42
Speaker
stand alone in that regard, but they do all tie together, or they will all tie together, presumably also with Undertale. Otherwise, very weird choice of things of having Deltarune be an anagram for Undertale, and the 13 other anagrams they have, or just reusing characters like, this is Officer Undyne, you're like, hmm, or it just sans, right?
00:59:10
Speaker
That was the other piece of evidence is like, is your brother here yet? Would imply that this is in the past because his brother is just not arrived yet. Um, whereas by the time you reach Undertale, his brother is there. And if it's after Undertale, they've actually left the underground entirely together.
00:59:30
Speaker
Interesting theory. So remember that thing I mentioned at the bottom of town? That was kind of like a, obviously the door that leads underground because it's a mound. So it's like a door that then it presumably has descending stairs. Do you mean in the dark world?
00:59:46
Speaker
No, overworld. Overworld, okay. I might not be familiar with the door. It's like the southeast of town. There's like a clearing amongst some trees, just some grass, but there is a door. Okay. But it leads underground. So maybe this is before things between humans and monsters get so bad. Right.
01:00:09
Speaker
That would kind of explain this because you are you are literally in a classroom as a human learning alongside monsters. I feel like there's a lot of evidence that this is just a prequel.
Is Deltarune a Prequel to Undertale?
01:00:27
Speaker
Yeah, so anyways, that's a break. It took us an hour to get there, but that was our conclusion. Let's title this one. It's a prequel. It's a prequel. Got him.
01:00:39
Speaker
I mean, you basically have to because the potential ending for Undertale proper is so happy that I don't think anyone in the fanbase would be satisfied with disturbing the utopia that you basically end on by introducing all of this intrigue and mystery and potential murder to the after credits.
01:01:02
Speaker
Yeah, isn't it like nice when like a series Andrew, okay, there's my finality. And then like 10 years later, they're like, hey, we're doing Dexter again. You're like, why did you do those extra four seasons? Now you're doing yet another season.
01:01:18
Speaker
So I I only watched like a few seasons of Dexter and it kind of bothers me a little bit Watch seasons one through four and don't touch any more Part of the problem is though is I feel weird when I'm watching it because the the show basically glorifies murder. Yeah essentially like
01:01:40
Speaker
I basically I don't know. I have no science to back this up, but I feel more people have died because that show was created than otherwise would have died because there's going to be people who have some mental situation. Well, I mean, the Punisher, I mean, anybody who's playing like a vigilante role and go to the extent of lethal force, you can make the same argument for. True. That's true. I feel like Dexter kind of revels in it.
01:02:08
Speaker
To a certain extent and I actually like I grew uneasy The whole show like it's meant to make you uneasy. They do a really good job of it because did you watch season four? No, I got to like season two All right, so season four like they do a much better job of adding the finality because like
01:02:28
Speaker
things hit closer to home. There's more so like your.
01:02:40
Speaker
You become nervous for a character as the show progresses. You're not sure where it's going to go. Yeah. And all the consequences in that show are very dire. It's not like, oh, Johnny's mad at Timmy. Timmy got punched. It's like, and that guy's dead. Horribly working, type thing. He started with Snowgrave. These eyebrows and lean ins don't really translate as well. Yeah, no one's going to know what that pause was.
01:03:08
Speaker
I'll just say eyebrow and lean in. It's very important to vocalize. Maybe I could do enough audio cues where people would make a visual association each time. Right. There's a pause so people are just like, he's probably an eyebrows moment. Or I could make a little key, a little legend. If you hear these audio cues throughout the podcast, here's some things to visualize. Right.
01:03:34
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, Dexter, I'm sure it's fine, but Deltarune, Undertale, that universe, very awesome. I would personally, my personal opinion is that he should subvert expectations one more time and maybe not the next release, perhaps it's the release after. He just closes out the rest of the series. He's like, oh yeah, by the way, here's...
01:03:55
Speaker
A release, it costs money and each chapter is four through seven. Here you go. Not even chapter three. We'll just get one. Well, yeah, that's the next free one. And then then they open up. First one's free. First two are free. First three are free. I mean, legitimately would give him any amount of money playing to probably get some merch at some point along the way. Yeah, again. Well, it's all over the place. So you don't have to look far to find Undertale or Delta Run merch.
01:04:25
Speaker
That fan base is the worst part about the series, but also very enthusiastic.
01:04:34
Speaker
Yeah, I'll be excited to have another episode on chapter three in about two years, maybe three. But really glad that it happened. Looking forward to more, hoping they do more music with Lena Raine or maybe some other people like disaster piece. That would be funny. I just, I don't know.
01:04:57
Speaker
I will always love this and it's cool to see more and I'll be very excited for the next one comes. Yeah. Next one's going to be like a survival crafting game. That's what it's going to be. You take everybody that you spared from previous games and they're now the citizens in your colony that you need to manage as you tell them to go off and chop lumber.
01:05:20
Speaker
It's a brain to build a base in the underground. Continuity, continuity.
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
01:05:30
Speaker
But if you guys have any advice on how to overcome our crippling addiction to this universe, you can send that in. We won't listen to it, but you could send it in to soapstonepodcast.gmail.com or you could join the discussion on Facebook where we'll just, we'll keep most of the fan base out.
01:05:49
Speaker
for this one, you know, we'll keep most of the fan base out. But you, dear listener, we always value your feedback and you could submit that to us at facebook.com slash soaps on podcast. And as always, we'll see you in the next one. Have a good night.
01:07:16
Speaker
you