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Ep 80: Insights on Privacy with Ron De Jesus, the Industry’s First Field Chief Privacy Officer
63 Plays10 days ago
How do you become a leader in the privacy space? Use video and content to make privacy and the profession more accessible? And define a whole new type of privacy role?
Join Ron De Jesus, Field Chief Privacy Officer at Transcend, as he shares what it’s like to be the first in the compliance industry to take on his innovative new role leading dialogues and creating spaces for discussion about the future of privacy. Pulling from his experience leading privacy at dating app companies like Grindr and Tinder and fashion houses like Tapestry and Coach, Ron leads with his extensive domain knowledge and first-hand understanding of privacy-related issues.
Listen as Ron discusses how he conducts interviews with privacy regulators, politicians, and activists in his video series “Field Notes,” the future of the CPO role in the age of AI, managing corporate reputations after privacy complaints, how to break into privacy without a law degree, and much more.
Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-80
Topics:
Introduction: 0:00
What is a Field Chief Privacy Officer?: 1:50
Producing a creative video webseries at Transcend: 6:54
Experimenting with video content as a freelance privacy consultant: 12:05
Coming into a role at a company dealing with privacy complaints: 15:50
Managing privacy-related communications issues: 19:01
Navigating a career break after alleging wrongful termination: 21:53
Thinking about new consent frameworks in the privacy industry: 24:40
How did you get your start in privacy?: 27:57
What is the future of the CPO role?: 33:56
Advice to young people who want to work in privacy: 36:19
How to find Ron: 39:34
Rapid-fire questions: 40:01
Book Recommendations: 41:28
What you wish you’d known as a young privacy professional: 42:42
Connect with us:
Ron De Jesus - https://www.linkedin.com/in/rondejesus/
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft
SpotDraft is a leading contract lifecycle management platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues.
Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.
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Transcript
Transparency and Communication with Regulators
00:00:00
Speaker
Firstly, you know make sure you're completely transparent with regulators. They can smell crap from a mile away. So I would say, you know obviously in and communication with your legal teams and PR teams, you know they're incredibly intelligent people. So whatever they ask for, give.
00:00:20
Speaker
and Try to be as explicit and easy, you know using lay people language when you're describing something that you might have done.
Introduction to Ron De Jesus and His Role
00:00:35
Speaker
How do you become a leader in the privacy space? Use content and video to make privacy and the profession more accessible and define a whole new type of privacy role. Today on World Data Privacy Day, when we're releasing this episode, we are joined on the abstract by Ron De Jesus, the industry's first field chief privacy officer. He's the field CPO at Transcend, where he's leading Transcend's privacy advocacy and evangelism efforts.
The Role of a Field Chief Privacy Officer
00:01:10
Speaker
Before joining Transcend, Ron had his own privacy consulting firm, pretty cool, and spent time as the chief privacy officer at Grindr. He also spent about five years leading privacy for companies in the dating app industry beyond Grindr, who was at Match Group and their subsidiary.
00:01:30
Speaker
Tinder, Ron has also worked in the fashion industry on privacy at Tapestry and their subsidiary Coach. And he spent a number of years sort of learning and growing in the privacy profession while at consulting firms, including Deloitte and PwC. Ron, thank you so much for joining me today for this episode of The Abstract. Thank you, Tyler, for having me.
00:01:50
Speaker
Okay, let's start maybe with like the present day and then we can go back a little ways. Tell us about this super cool role as field chief privacy officer. What are you focused on? And I'm also like, I feel like you must be defining this as you go, right? Like, how did you and Transcend come up with this idea?
00:02:10
Speaker
Yeah, first of all, I wake up every day looking in the mirror and basically thanking the gods that I have this incredible role in privacy. I definitely think it's one of the coolest roles in our industry in compliance. And I'm not sure if you know Tyler, but there has been this concept of a field CISO, Chief Information Security Officers who have Interesting. They're established folks that have a lot of domain expertise. They they are obviously ex-CSOs who go out into the field and interact with potential clients and prospects and basically help you know whatever third party or vendor that they're they're part of sell the software for the platform. Yeah. and so that really It's a really cool concept because
00:03:01
Speaker
you have an individual who's walked the walk and talked the talk and is able to be in the customer's shoes.
Building Trust and Domain Knowledge
00:03:06
Speaker
now I want to start with that because although my role is the field CPO, I actually more focus on interaction with the privacy community and building thought leadership, interviewing really prominent folks in the space, sitting on panels,
00:03:24
Speaker
So actually I've been touted or I've been tasked with focusing on evangelizing the product, but through in interactions with the community. So I'm not actually considered sales, which is great because I'm a terrible salesperson. I tell it like it is. But um I, well, what's great about the role though, Tyler, is that, you know, obviously it's such a ah unique role that I think Transcend had just the,
00:03:51
Speaker
great foresight to to go out and and and find an individual who has the expertise and the domain like knowledge, but again, wants them to focus more on developing, not only thought leadership, but just creating dialogue in our
Insights from the 'Field Trips' Video Series
00:04:07
Speaker
community. I think i think it's actually such a missed opportunity that we in the space deal day to day with with breaches, with you know with different features and products that might implicate privacy,
00:04:21
Speaker
but a lot of that knowledge is siloed. And so it's just been such a great kind of role for me because I get to talk to my peers and they want to talk to me as a former CPO. sure And of course, you know if they are looking for a privacy platform, you you know i i I can let them know that Transcend ah is obviously top of its game when it comes to privacy program management. um And that does you know bleed into my work quite often. I'm ah i um i'm on a couple of sales calls recorder and obviously do focus on that aspect. But again, how we get the ah community talking and how how we build that trust and rapport is through just speaking with my peers on a one-on-one level.
Accountability and Creativity in Privacy Compliance
00:05:04
Speaker
So it's great. Anyway, it's yeah's just to answer your question.
00:05:09
Speaker
The role is unique. I love it. and And I couldn't ask for a better team, for sure. As I've watched you sort of grow into it after the announcement that that you were hired, you know, I've been learning. I mean, in some ways, I think that this like field CPR role, or I didn't know about field CSO, right, is actually kind of similar in some ways to community focused roles. Yeah. What do you think, and and you've spoken to it a little bit, but what do you think that really says about the importance of having the trust of an industry or the trust of potential customers, you know, the company or the vendor has actually gone out and brought someone in who really understands their needs and concerns and what truly matters to them, which might not always be the latest feature that the company's rolling out as great as that is. Yeah, no, I think that it should be table stakes for any privacy company or even just
00:06:01
Speaker
compliance software company, whatever it is, to have someone in a role like this that is actually able to tell, you know, internal product and engineer and the folks that are actually working on the platform that you're selling, you know, hey, this is actually how it happens in real life. I definitely think this expertise and this, again, having that domain knowledge is absolutely critical to any company that is trying to sell to a specific function or community.
00:06:29
Speaker
So if you don't have one yet, I just actually find it a little bit flabbergasting that I'm the first of its kind. um yeah But yeah, I think um I do predict that in 2025 and beyond, we'll see a couple of companies mimicking this role. And and I welcome that. you for sure You might even have recommendations for those folks. so exactly One of the things that I've really enjoyed that you've done in your role, these video series that you're creating, I mean, you're a great content.
00:07:02
Speaker
creator, you're very creative. You're dealing with privacy leaders, regulators, even activists, right? You're dealing with Mac Shremms that i I found particularly interesting. What have those interactions or those conversations taught you about how regulators or activists think? Think about privacy harms, think about privacy issues?
00:07:26
Speaker
Yeah. Such a great question, Tyler, the kind of the driver for me to develop field trips. Uh, and I
Engaging with Regulators and Industry Leaders
00:07:32
Speaker
come up, came up with that name myself, by the way, i love all yeah playing off the field CPO kind of role. I came up with the abstract. So amazing. So creative. But my, my ultimate goal for that series was to your point to get varying perspectives on.
00:07:51
Speaker
topics that CPOs deal with day to day. So for example, my first two guests were folks from the EU Parliament who were really critical to pushing out the EU AI Act. And then I had Max Schrems who has that activism perspective. And then I had the head of Canil, who obviously comes from a regulatory background. So my goal for field trips is to really get an understanding of how different dimensions of our industry think about these issues. Because I come at it with a kind of practical pragmatic in the weeds lens.
00:08:30
Speaker
Yeah, and it's so interesting to hear how other folks view, you know, the need for, let's just say, again, the AI Act. One of my questions to those folks at um ah those politicians that I spoke to who were involved in that kind of trial log process was, where are you getting our perspectives? We're the ones as CPOs and privacy pros that have to deal with the resulting legislation, you know, and it it kind of created this really good dialogue around, well,
00:09:00
Speaker
You know, we we we've considered some of the things like, for example, they did consider GDPR and the need for data protection impact assessments within within the EU AI Act's kind of requirements when it comes to high risk AI models and and systems. So for me, it's it's really getting us a flavor and sense of different perspectives on the same topic.
00:09:26
Speaker
to to truly understand that kind of lifecycle of how a law is generated and the impacts and to Max Shrem's perspective, you know why is he kind of harping and and focusing on these different tech companies that aren't complying with that law? So again, I think I really just wanted to get flavors of of perspectives to to bring forth just multitudes of perspectives and and ah viewpoints and share that with my peers in the community at large.
00:09:55
Speaker
so I mean, I certainly appreciate having earlier in my career done a lot of privacy work, the need to be very practical and apply these laws to whatever's happening day to day in your business. And of course you're thinking about data subjects and you're thinking about harm and you're you're thinking about ethics, right?
00:10:15
Speaker
You know, one of the things that's interesting about these videos is you're talking to folks that usually if you're within a company, you don't necessarily want to be talking to, right? Well, you don't always want to be having the upfront conversation with the regulator or with an activist like Mac Shremms. You're thinking more sort of like practically about the day to day, you might be a little bit more internally
Career Advice for Aspiring Privacy Professionals
00:10:36
Speaker
focused if you're have a privacy program management role.
00:10:39
Speaker
Are there things knowing what you know now and having had some of these conversations that maybe back when you were a CPO or you were working on privacy program management, you think, Oh, might have done that a little bit differently or Oh, I wish that I'd engaged in this way. i'm Just curious that this is affected how you think CPO should be doing their day jobs and in any way. Yeah, I i definitely think it's been incredibly elucidating for me to get the perspectives of of regulators, for example, and understanding what's on their roadmap, what's top of mind for them. As as a CPO and being able to share that with the community, I hope that I brought to light some of the things that CPO should be thinking about when they're developing their programs, you know when when the canals coming out with with a worksheet on you know getting you know the specific ah legitimate or the legal basis for using personal data to train AI systems, for example.
00:11:36
Speaker
take that guidance and and really implement it. you know it's It's there for a reason. There's such a wealth of resources that are out there. so So yes, I think as I interview folks that are outside the operational field of privacy, it really does color how I would, um if I was a CPO again, develop a program and you know implement controls to protect user privacy, for sure.
00:12:04
Speaker
so You were experimenting with with video content, content creation before joining Transcend when you had a consulting practice. I have to think it's one of the things that that got you on their radar. But I'm curious, what were you trying to accomplish with it it at that point in time? There's not a lot of folks who are doing privacy video content out there. Yeah, I'd say it's a really low bar, actually. It's really easy for me to sweep in.
00:12:30
Speaker
and kind I'm just kidding. I think there's a lot of great content creators out there in our space. For me, how I got into it was I was talking to my mom about something, I think it was like a privacy policy update. And this is a true story. you know And I was actually on vacation in Italy at the time, and that will that part will be important in a second. So she asked me, you know hey, should I click yes on this privacy policy update? I don't even know what it means. Can you tell me more about it? and I was walking her through you know the the purpose of a policy and how companies collect their her personal information against the backdrop of Lake Como, where I was at the time. And it just was an aha moment for me to yeah to to blend. like Because I like design. I like fashion. I like travel. And it's it's kind of a juxtaposition between that and compliance. So then I started this video series where I talked about
00:13:29
Speaker
just basic privacy rights of individuals against kind of really cool backdrops. And I started working with a really great creative producer who's in fashion and design. And so we mixed these two seemingly really different themes um and started this video series to help the lay
Overcoming Regulatory Challenges at Grindr
00:13:51
Speaker
person better understand their privacy rights. And that just, it got ah it generated a lot of really great interest on LinkedIn. And and that's when I started to to think, Hey, maybe there is a space for actual, I guess I wouldn't call it social influences, influences them, but like just better content creation for, for compliance professionals. So one of the things that I love about that, I talked to other guests about this. I think people look at themselves or they look at compliance professionals or lawyers.
00:14:23
Speaker
And they're like, we're not creative, right? but or And actually, like you've just you've just talked about how these other interests that you have, going to beautiful places, fashion, right, ended up being super important in your career journey in compliance. I think this is just underappreciated, basically, like that that we are more creative than we think. Yeah, and the biggest thing I learned, Tyler, was you know Yes, compliance can be fun and can be design focused. But what i but I learned through working with folks that are in social media was that it's actually best if you can blend the two, like your passion and maybe something that you want to educate the masses on. yeah You can actually have several dimensions of that that really you know get people talking and eyes on a post. And I think that's the best way
00:15:19
Speaker
to approach something like privacy and compliance that's typically, and I will say, boring. I mean, like i mean let's let's but's be real. you know you know Talking about the GDPR is i not the most exciting thing, but maybe talking about the GDPR plus looking at a really great scene in Greece might make it more consumable. right so Totally. People should take notes as they're thinking about their trainings for their sales teams, exactly for their marketing teams. Absolutely. I do want to spend a little bit of time asking you about your time at Grindr and if in the dating app space more broadly.
00:15:58
Speaker
When you joined Grinder, you were stepping into a sort of situation, as I think happens to other privacy pros as well, where the company was you it was being fined by the Norwegian DPA around some data sharing practices. My my question for you there is,
00:16:14
Speaker
Do you have advice for folks who may be stepping into a role where they may need to do some cleanup or they might need to try to make decisions to restore the reputation of the business? Yeah, first of all, my time at Grindr was incredibly interesting. I think I learned such a huge amount of stuff during that time. And it was great because at the also at the same time I was at the helm of protecting the privacy of millions of users of a community of which I'm part, which for me, you know as a privacy professional, it really felt that I was actually doing something altruistic and something that really affected my community. um yeah So I had the had a really great time in that role. I would say my advice to folks that are coming into a situation where
00:17:11
Speaker
you know, they might have to clean house is really make sure that you get the partnership and the level of support that you need from executive teams that you're that you're working with. I think having that top down message from the CEO um or, you know, from the the board or whoever it is that you're reporting to is absolutely critical because nobody's going to listen to you unless you have that sense of, you know, this is top a top priority for this company. So I think, again, number one, get five minutes with the CEO and, you know, let him know what your m MO is and and how you want to affect change.
Internal Communication and Stakeholder Management
00:17:55
Speaker
So another thing I would say is also, you know, I think a lot of this is also cultural, too, it's gonna be it's gonna take time to change behaviors. Sure. You know, people aren't going to know what their
00:18:09
Speaker
privacy responsibilities are overnight. So yeah developing really good behaviors is going to take time. And I think that's something that folks that are coming into you know situations like this have to realize that it's not going to be an overnight change and they have to work at it, whether it's through really good privacy training, you know um having really good messaging at ah regular intervals, that sort of thing. i So again, top kind of executive level support And then doing things that change the culture from within um are really critical. That's really fantastic advice. And I think that that that both parts of that are applicable to any sort of compliance challenges that you might be dealing with, not just with privacy, but being in internal comms, battle sometimes too, that you need to need to fight.
Navigating Professional Challenges
00:19:01
Speaker
I'm also curious, sort of related question there. you know I mean, I think that when you're working in in privacy, I mean, of course there are ethical lines or there are legal lines that you have to uphold or you have to communicate across the business. But a lot of success that I've seen in privacy is with folks who are really good at the comm side as well, or really good at stakeholder management as as well.
00:19:29
Speaker
And that doesn't mean, by the way, that you are doing something that is wrong or not 100% compliant and making it sound really good, right? What what I'm saying is, The work that you're doing behind the scenes also needs to contribute probably to a narrative that builds trust with those stakeholders. You've worked in the dating app space, which is B2C, a lot of focus and visibility on this. Any lessons that you learned while you were in that space around managing privacy comms that you'd want to share with our listeners? Yeah. And if we're focusing on privacy comms when
00:20:05
Speaker
shit hits the fan. There's a couple of things that I could share with you, Tyler, is firstly, you know, make sure you're completely transparent with regulators, they can smell crap from a mile away. So I would say, you know, obviously in in communication with your legal teams and PR teams, make sure that you are, you know, they're incredibly intelligent people.
00:20:33
Speaker
So whatever they ask for, give, and try to be as explicit and easy, using lay people language when you're describing something that you might have done. So again, kind of number one tip is when working with regulators, just be as transparent as possible. but I think my second tip would be have accountability. you know If you've done something wrong, working with your comms teams around not you know, not creating fluffly in language about what may have happened, but take responsibility for for for your actions. And I feel like consumers really respond well to companies that, you know, say, Hey, we made a mistake, and here's what we're doing to rectify
00:21:17
Speaker
and and mitigate any risk to you. I think that really resonates well with consumers, especially when you know we have a lot of examples where companies try to kind of push off the responsibility to a vendor or whatever it is, but aren't really taking responsibility for something that they could have done in hindsight. So again, I think those would be my top two tips if you're stepping into a minefield. And you as the company signed the contract with the vendor anyway. so They don't care about vendor acts that you're using, they they see you as yeah that first
Integrating Personal Interests into Privacy Work
00:21:51
Speaker
point of contact. So yeah. When you when you left Grindr, and I mean, look, this is all in the public record. Let's say the departure wasn't mutual. You alleged wrongful termination for speaking out about some privacy practices. I don't want to ask you all about that.
00:22:10
Speaker
What I am curious to ask you about is how you manage through what must have been a very difficult and stressful time, right? um And then had the fortitude to get back out there and build this consulting business in a pretty public way, which which led you to where you are now. How did you navigate that experience personally and professionally? Yeah, Tyler, I'm not gonna lie. It was incredibly difficult, both professionally and personally, but it gave me pause to look back on my career and really invest some some time into thinking of what's next, right? So I spoke to not only my peers and and, you know, folks in privacy, I started to really get the perspectives of folks in the creative field, in other industries that I was interested in, and
00:23:08
Speaker
really do a kind of a mapping of the skills that I was good at, you know that i yeah the different dimensions of myself in terms of, you know again, i I'm really good at design and fashion, and and and I love traveling. you know what What can I kind of do next but also still leverage everything that I've learned in my 15 years in privacy? So it was a really watershed moment for me.
00:23:36
Speaker
And I think the way that I, again, I, I'm the type of person that needs to be doing something at every minute and every day, right? So even my my husband was like, you know, take a beat and, you know, you know, just, just, you know, have some time to relax. But for me, again, I really focused on not just looking at potential next privacy career moves, but what what else out there was I good at and could I possibly be leveraging my existing skillset? And that led to to your point, the developing of these videos, which I also think launched my career at Transcend as well. So again, I would just say to the folks that might be in similar situations, you know perseverance is key of and and solicit as much perspective as you can get.
00:24:30
Speaker
You know, and I think those were really good guidance points for me, so. That's great advice. Yeah, thank you.
The Future of Privacy Roles and AI Governance
00:24:40
Speaker
One of the things that came out of your time in the dating app space, I think this is a really interesting idea, is thinking about swiping as a sort of different model for a consent framework. It was, it was it a fast company? recently read to your Yeah, you a couple of weeks ago. Tell us about this idea. I think it's really interesting. Yeah. I think this was just something that came to mind when I was thinking about just in time.
00:25:06
Speaker
notices, you know, that the the popups that you might get when ah an app might be collecting sensitive personal information. And I was thinking about things that we do day to day and that we take for granted, whether it's again, you know, swiping on a dating app or clicking on Google Maps or, you know, just these day to day gestures that we do every day. Why can't privacy controls be as easy as that?
00:25:32
Speaker
So it was just you know it's just a kind of a thought experiment on what if companies took advantage of of those controls, existing kind of UX controls, and and use that to better the experience for users when it came of came to their privacy choices. So I thought i thought it was just like a cute little article that, again, since I was in the dating app space,
00:25:55
Speaker
folks good could relate to. you know um But again, I think I just wanted to generate a broader discussion on how companies can can better operationalize privacy choices for users. huh you know So that was the whole goal of that article And let's be honest, right? I mean, there are some instances, maybe like apples always allow, only allow while using the app location controls prompt that work, I think pretty well. We can also think about like cookie consent banners, right?
00:26:29
Speaker
other sort of confronts consent frameworks, excuse me, that do not work well at all. And so I don't know, putting a slightly different mind to it or spin on it, or thinking about it for let's think about this from a UX perspective, not just from a compliance perspective, right? Like, that's also what's really interesting to me about about your idea. And I think that if companies started to think with that mindset,
00:26:54
Speaker
they would get a lot out of more out of consumers. I think consumers would be more trustful of of the services and products that you put out. If you are putting privacy front and center, I think I talk about Apple as an example quite often as well. you know I think they've they've done an incredible job at using privacy, not only from a monetization perspective, but from an optics and reputation and perspective, right? we We do see privacy as the privacy first company, if you will. And I've seen huge billboards of this in San Francisco, for example. But again, I think if if companies started to capitalize on that, you'd see a lot more data sharing and maybe a lot more consumers comfortable with providing with data versus if you engage in what's called dark patterns or varying yeah things in terms and privacy policies.
Diverse Skill Sets in Privacy Roles
00:27:46
Speaker
it's it's eventually going to come to light that you might be doing something nefarious with your data. So just just be transparent and user-friendly, and I think things will fall into place. you know so Let's switch gears a little bit. like A lot of folks, your path into privacy wasn't entirely on purpose. Yeah, tell us how you got into privacy. Yeah, I definitely did not grow up saying, mom, I want to be a privacy professional. but Definitely not. It was a ah not a linear path at all. i actually studied to become a doctor, but realized that I was terrible at math and science. So I actually pivoted into English Lit, which actually led me to consulting after I graduated university ah for a healthcare care systems consulting firm. um And started actually doing assessments on these systems as well, from a privacy perspective. And this was all in based in Toronto. And you know, Tyler, like ken Canada is a pretty
00:28:46
Speaker
mature privacy legislation kind of environment. So I was dealing with, you know, this was back in, let's say 2005, 2006. I was doing privacy impact assessments kind of straight out of university. Yeah. Um, which I was really good at. I'm actually really good at like, you know, unearthing gaps and, but also coming up with mitigation strategies. So again, started in a really boutique consulting firm.
00:29:16
Speaker
Then I moved to the big four, so Deloitte, um where I was exposed to some really great clients globally doing privacy maturity assessments, operationalizing privacy programs. And then to your point, I was a former head of privacy at ah Tapestry, which owns Coach and several other fashion brands. They actually asked me after an assessment that I did for them to become that head of privacy. So it was like a perfect kind of,
00:29:46
Speaker
way to end that engagement. So that was my first in-house role. And then after developing my own program, I wanted to actually focus in tech. And this was the year before GDPR went into effect, and Tinder was looking for its first ever privacy role, which I pounced on. you know I wanted to not just you know say to teams, go and delete personal information. I actually wanted to understand from an engineering perspective, how do we actually do that. you know And so working at Tinder was my first foray into working with but product folks, with engineers, with but folks that have a very specific mindset around things, which was great. It was really great for me. It was actually the best time in my career from a educational perspective. Because working with engineers, they're a different animal. And again, I actually should start with the fact that I'm not a lawyer. But I've yeah reported to GCs my entire career.
00:30:44
Speaker
um So I've always been within the legal function, liaising with you know my GC or head of legal and the folks that are on the ground actually trying to operationalize things like data minimization and data subject rights requests. So did a couple of years at Tinder and Match Group, went and did my own consulting for a bit. But when I was my doing my own consulting, I actually met at the time the head of legal for Grindr at a really small privacy event. And he then wanted me to come in and do some in-house work. And I eventually became their data protection officer and then eventually their CPO. So pro tip, go go to as many networking events and you know small small privacy knowledge that that you can, you never know who you'll meet. Yeah. And then after Grindr did my own thing ah again. And then now I'm at ah Transcend as their field CPO.
00:31:39
Speaker
um But I actually, Tyler, I should point out, I don't do any internal compliance work, sure is which is great. You know, like, I've done that, been there, done that. We have a great head of legal who I adore and admire. um But I get to focus now on just content creation and, and really just connecting with the community. So You mentioned you don't have a law degree. It's something that we have in common. Although I think that probably like me, people assume that you're a lawyer from time to time. Do you think that chief privacy officers or people in privacy need law degrees? Like how do you answer that ah question? I would say absolutely not. You do not need a law degree to
00:32:23
Speaker
be a privacy professional. But I will caveat that with it really depends on what the organization is looking for. There's no one size fits all when it comes to what they might need in terms of a privacy role. so So for example, if you have a company that is a pretty, you know, is a small to medium sized company that needs a head of legal, they they also might, you know, naturally fit the CPO description as well.
Evolving Role of CPOs with AI Advancements
00:32:50
Speaker
Right. So that company might be putting out a requisition for this person needs to have a JD. So I understand certain cultural and other factors that might play into why a company is seeking someone with a law degree. But, um you know, again, as someone that comes from a more audit and kind of, I guess, English background, I think there's multiple skill sets that can help a privacy office, whether
00:33:21
Speaker
you're looking for privacy engineers or folks that handle you know specific features you know from a privacy product perspective, um those those can come from a plethora of backgrounds. So again, I'm not and not saying you know that, actually, I love being called a lawyer. It makes me feel smart. It makes me feel like I'm actually you know ah interpreting laws correctly, but you do not need to have a law degree. but i I highly you know encourage folks that come from different backgrounds to to seek privacy roles if they want, for sure.
00:33:56
Speaker
I think you may have been quoted even in in one of these articles. The Wall Street Journal and Bloomberg have published some articles sort of about like, is the CPO role going away? And and I think that this is spurred, of course, by the rise of AI and thinking about AI governance. And is this going to subsume the chief privacy officer role? Is the chief privacy officer really just like another person under the GC? I don't know. What what do you think about that?
00:34:21
Speaker
Right? Like, do you think CPO roles are going to change and evolve a lot? Where does AI fit in? What's, what's going to happen to these roles in the titles? Yeah, I actually wrote an article called, is the CPO role dead or something like that? And it actually, I saw that there was like some folks on, on LinkedIn that but basically just read the headline and were in, you know, big disagreement with that, which yeah the point of the article, it was actually trying to shine a light on our profession as something that is never going to go away. you know But anyway, do you remember, Tyler, you know back in the day when there was this term big data, right and then chief data officers became a thing? Yeah. like do you I worked for one for a while, actually. Yeah. So I definitely think that as technologies evolve, roles will evolve. you know And to your point, we're now being the ones tasked with
00:35:19
Speaker
this concept of AI governance, which I think as CPOs, we're probably the most suited to to address. You know, a lot of the time, we do have to think about not only about consumer privacy, but about the ethics of doing something, right? When it when it comes to pushing out a feature, I'm always thinking about, you know, risk to individuals broadly and not just to privacy. So I think, yes, we've been, we were now given this hat this additional hat that we have to wear, but I think it makes sense as a CPOs to wear it. um But to answer your question, I definitely don't think our role is ever going to to die
Networking and Certifications for Privacy Success
00:35:58
Speaker
off, if you will. I definitely think our roles and responsibilities will evolve and and change over time. um But I'm actually really happy that we're thought of as the folks that are the best suited to address AI governance and considerations with this emerging technology.
00:36:15
Speaker
it's not only great job security, but it it just also makes sense from a skill set perspective too. So I'm sure you get asked all the time from folks on the other end of the not CPOs on the other end of the spectrum, young people want to break into privacy, whether they're out of undergrad,
00:36:30
Speaker
ah Maybe they have another role in the business and they want to try their hand at it or they've gone to law school. What's your advice to those folks? Maybe besides go to random IAPP networking events.
00:36:45
Speaker
You know, I think there again, there's multiple pathways into this profession. And I think my advice to young folks that are getting into this field are to reach again,
00:36:56
Speaker
For us, and I'm sure you know this Tyler, but LinkedIn is such an incredible resource. Whether it's just finding people, I've actually had a few students reach out to me just randomly on LinkedIn wanting five minutes of my time. you know I'm yeah happy to to give that. So use use LinkedIn to your your advantage and just reach out to the folks that you admire or the folks with the roles that you find interesting. If you're looking at a specific role, do some research on to see who's the hiring manager and send a note.
00:37:24
Speaker
So again, yeah we we have this professional network for a reason. um And I think the second tip would be, you know there's there's lots of certifications out there that you're seeing on you know ah job requisitions as now required. So for example, the ones that are put out the by the IEPP, there's an abundance of of certifications to get out there that um that are out there that you can get that are privacy specific.
00:37:55
Speaker
so So think about doing those as well to to just add to your resume. I think you know therere it's kind of a no brainer. If you want to get into this space, demonstrate your appetite and your desire to do that by like getting really educated and demonstrating that through certifications, um I think is a ah good way to start as well.
00:38:17
Speaker
Absolutely. I mean, nobody's going to be hiring a chief privacy officer because they're a sip us s or they're a sip Europe, but if you're at a law school and you decide that you want to go and practice privacy law or you want to even do privacy program management, you know, nobody knows what classes you took, but they can see that you've gone and, you know, been willing to sit down and study for 12 hours or whatever exactly certification, right? It's a, it's a very easy way to,
00:38:44
Speaker
to use your words, demonstrate interest. Absolutely. You know, and anybody off the street can take these certifications. Yes. There's no professional. Yeah, even us. But there's no like professional or educational requirements to take these certs, which I think some folks in the industry have have issue with, and I completely understand that. But I think getting a cert at least demonstrates a baseline interest.
00:39:12
Speaker
And again, you know ah a level of of determination. you know If I'm looking at a CV from someone that's applying and they have a SIP US and someone else doesn't, will they have a leg up? Probably, right? so Yeah.
00:39:28
Speaker
yeah so I've got some fun questions for you in just a sec, but before we get to that, if folks want to find your content, get connected with you, where should they look? Yeah, on Instagram, you could follow me at Ron De Jesus. And on LinkedIn, just search for me by name, Ron De Jesus. And you'll see my title there as the industry's first field CPO. So yeah, and LinkedIn is is my primary kind of source of of content.
Balancing Work and Personal Interests
00:39:56
Speaker
So, um, Yeah, i'm I'm happy to connect there. Cool. Um, okay. A few fun questions for you. First one is what's your favorite part of your day to day? My favorite part of my day to day is I actually, it's funny. I'm, I'm, I'm a big introvert, but when it comes to interesting, yeah, it's, it's weird, but I love just talking with people and interviewing them on
00:40:24
Speaker
on my series. I have two series actually field trips and then another kind of cute fun one called on trend with transcend, where I asked privacy pros kind of rapid fire questions that are, yeah, both, you know, top of mind for for privacy pros, but also cute things about themselves too. So it's I yeah, my my my favorite part is just engaging with the community. I'd say, do you have a professional pet peeve?
00:40:52
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Where do I start? so I think for me, ah you know I love Slack. you know I love it as a communication tool, but I definitely think there are times when it's better to just pick up the phone because intent and and things like that can definitely be mis misconstrued. So I think my pet peeve is like if something's feeling like it should be a conversation, have a conversation.
00:41:21
Speaker
so That's a really good one. That might be the best one I've heard this year. I totally do. Do you have a book that you'd like to recommend to our listeners? Yeah. So actually, believe it or not, I have it on my coffee table here. um it show yeah It's called Atlas of AI. but Interesting. kate I haven't heard of that.
00:41:44
Speaker
Yeah, it's a super interesting book that doesn't really get into the technical know-how of AI systems and models. it It more focuses on other impacts caused by AI. you know So for example, the effects on the environment, on you know the the the workers that actually are doing a lot of the tagging and kind of the manual labor.
00:42:10
Speaker
and the impact on those populations. So it looks at it from these dimensions that you wouldn't really necessarily think of when you're in compliance, which I like because we're hope so heavily focused on, you know, what's the next emerging regulation on this? But there are so many, there's such a plethora of impacts above and beyond just compliance that we don't really think about. So I think, yeah, it's a really good read just to get a sense of other industries that are going to be affected by the rise of this tech. So.
00:42:40
Speaker
Yeah, that's great. Yeah. Okay. My final question for you, traditional closing question for all the guests on the abstract. It's if you could look back on your days of being a young privacy professional, just getting started, what is one thing that you know now that you wish that you'd known back then? Yeah, I would say just try different things every day. You know, it's just,
00:43:09
Speaker
we we we tend to be so focused on our day-to-day as privacy pros. And I think in my early career, I was just so hyper focused on privacy as a profession that you know I just wish that I probably did other things to supplement more. And you know I'm 42 years old and you know there I wish I had, for examples, focused more on refining my proficiency with the French language, for example. So like ah so it's just looking at things that like hobbies and and other things that can supplement your career, focus on that, give give give time. And i I think currently we use the term hold space for, you know, hold some space for things that you enjoy in life and just have a really good balance between, you know, work and play, I think would be my
00:44:05
Speaker
by Two Cents there. And I think as your career has demonstrated to us, those hobbies, those things that you love outside of work can come back and inform it in surprising and unexpected ways. What a good way to rap, Tyler. That is such a... Yeah, I agree. I agree. have Ron, thank you so much for joining me for this episode of The Abstract. This has been a lot of fun. This is so much fun, Tyler. Thank you so much.
00:44:31
Speaker
And to all of our listeners, thanks so much for tuning in and we hope to see you next time.