Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Ep 85: From Coding to the C-Suite with Ryan Nier, GC Nova Credit
72 Plays9 days ago
What if you never really wanted or expected to become a lawyer? How do you navigate imposter syndrome? And where do you find meaning in your work?
Join Ryan Nier, General Counsel, Chief Compliance Officer, and Head of People at Nova Credit, as he shares his career path from being a self-taught computer programmer who founded his own start-up to a decade as a litigation associate at a global law firm, eventually landing as a general counsel at companies with a positive impact on the world.
Listen as Ryan discusses his struggles with imposter syndrome, feeling like the only person in the room with a unique background, hiring great people for roles you’ve never done before, and his side project of creating a documentary podcast about the time he and his brother dug up some (literal) buried gold.
Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-85
Topics
Introduction 0:00
Starting as a software engineer: 2:17
Enrolling in law school: 5:34
Managing imposter syndrome: 9:58
Hiring diverse talent: 16:44
Why representation matters: 23:42
Transitioning to in-house legal: 27:08
Making the leap to general counsel: 32:22
Expanding beyond legal into the people function: 39:52
Creating and hosting a podcast about your family: 45:18
Rapid-fire questions: 53:30
Connect with us:
Ryan Nier - https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryannier/
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft
SpotDraft is a leading contract lifecycle management platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues.
Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.
Recommended
Transcript
The Importance of Holistic Hiring
00:00:00
Speaker
What I realized though, is that the most of my criteria for hiring were the same. It was just adding and you got to be really good at understanding people, the people function. So intellectual curiosity, intrinsic motivation, curiosity, and empathy were all the same things. And so I rant some of my standard questions I use in an interview is the same ones. It's just now I had to ask also about like testing that intellectual athleticism and around a skill set to, to actually like do this thing. So people, whether it's people or something else, I, what I learned was to make sure I'm finding well-rounded people versus like focusing too much on, we all have had that person who works at a company who sucks, but they're so good at their job that everyone's like, well, you got to do a so-and-so because they're crushing it, you know? um And I think I, what I learned was don't do that.
From Software Engineer to Legal Professional
00:00:49
Speaker
What if you never really wanted or expected to become a lawyer? How do you navigate imposter syndrome? And where do you find meaning in your work?
00:01:01
Speaker
Today, we are joined on the abstract by Ryan Neer, general counsel, chief compliance officer, and head of people at Nova Credit, a credit infrastructure and analytics company that helps businesses grow more responsibly by harnessing alternative credit data.
00:01:17
Speaker
Ryan is also the producer of his own forthcoming podcast, Florida Gold, which I'm excited to hear about and I'm excited for its release. Before Nova, he was a general counsel of a couple of other companies in the fintech space.
00:01:32
Speaker
He started his in-house career at Capital One. Maybe you have their credit cards after spending time living and working for Paul Hastings in San Francisco, in and in China.
00:01:47
Speaker
And before becoming a lawyer, Ryan was actually a software engineer. He still likes to code a bit. We've chatted about how he's built a sort of do-it-yourself CLM for prior companies that he's been a lawyer at.
00:02:01
Speaker
Don't worry, we won't talk all about how you can build your own CLM on this podcast, but I think it's kind of a fun and different skill set and experience than most folks who've been on. and So Ryan, thanks so much for joining me for this episode of The Abstract.
00:02:17
Speaker
Thanks for having me. Okay.
Early Tech Interests and Ventures
00:02:19
Speaker
ah Let's start with your time as a software engineer. I'm really curious about that. That's it and sort of a different experience than a lot of guests have had here, working as not just with coders, giving them advice, but as a coder yourself.
00:02:34
Speaker
Yeah, it started, i was maybe, was in like the mid 80s. I was a little kid and I got really curious about computers and I went to a flea market and I bought an old computer and I took it home and i realized that we couldn't afford to either have internet through AOL or to get any software for it. So I bought a book on coding um that I found and I was like, let me learn how to make something So I can say this now, I created both an AOL fake account creator um and like my own very terrible word processing and security software. The word processor was not very good, but it was my processor.
00:03:12
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think a visual, a visual, you couldn't print you, you know, like it didn't have it. you could No one could accept your doc format, but I could write my little things in there. and Um, yeah.
00:03:23
Speaker
And then from there, um i i was sort of I don't know, like a white hat hacker. I never did anything bad, but I definitely tried to explore what I was capable of or what the what you know I could go to do.
00:03:34
Speaker
So um I did that. And then i went when I went to college, I had this um moment where I just wasn't doing very well financially and I needed an out really quickly. And I thought, you know, well i i can I'm a programmer, like I could code. And so I started a startup in like 1998, think.
00:03:53
Speaker
Huh. What was the startup startup was is a startup called BluTai out of Rochester, New York. And what's really funny about it is it was um it was the goal was to at the time companies had um like Microsoft Exchange server. You basically had to host everything locally. So there was no cloud at the time.
00:04:10
Speaker
So you'd have like Microsoft Exchange so that you could run email in your company. And so you have an IT department that ran you know even your 10 person company. So we had this B2B idea, which was to create this software that would take all the stuff that existed locally and just put it in the cloud.
00:04:25
Speaker
So we had calendar, email, secure file send. And what was the other one? There was one other thing. So essentially Google Apps, but in 1998. And just really interesting idea. I mean, got it it wasn't my idea. So credit the but folks who had it. um But just, I don't know, could have been big, but I don't think we marketed it well.
00:04:44
Speaker
Sachi didn't buy the company or wasn't thinking cloud at the time. or It's crazy to talk about now now that it's been created because one of the things I was working on at the time was how two people could edit the same document at the same time because that was unheard of in 1998. And I was trying to find a way to do it because my my project was both file or part of file sharing and then the calendar calendar app was the thing that I made.
00:05:07
Speaker
So anyway, so I was trying to figure it out. And then for years later to have Google build this thing, I mean, much better than we did. But it's funny to think back and think we were trying to sell it to small businesses because that was really the reason it probably wasn't huge. was like we were trying to sell it. We were you know we thought, well, save your $1,500 in Microsoft Exchange and come get it for $12 from our company. But um we just didn't market it. We didn't mass market it. We weren't thinking about that problem. We were thinking about a different So what led you to decide to want to go to law school then? i mean, if it's because it sounds like maybe you're not having immense financial success, but that's like some success. You're building something. You've got a company. You've incorporated. You've got a team.
00:05:48
Speaker
What was it that actually inspired you to almost change career paths again and and try something new in the law?
Law School and Early Career Reflections
00:05:56
Speaker
It's funny because it it seems like the answer would be that I, you know, was inspired to do something else. But actually the answer was to one, i just, I thought I was gonna be a millionaire from this startup I worked at. And and what we made was awesome. I was and like, that didn't happen.
00:06:09
Speaker
um And then the other one was, I just, if I'm honest, I wasn't, risky. I was too risk of her. So I had, and I was going to school for computer science at the time. And I, and I thought, you know, I'm working full time and I'm like, you know, i I just, I didn't, I had these ideas that I wanted to make and I just, I didn't have a safety net. I just felt like I couldn't take a risk that big in law school felt safe.
00:06:34
Speaker
And so I did the safe thing. Sure. And then like many people, you went on to to work at a big law firm at Paul Hastings. And think you told me before you summered somewhere different.
00:06:44
Speaker
I actually I usually brush over people's time at law firms. um But I think it's kind of interesting in in your story. what What was that like being there? Did you enjoy working at a big firm?
00:06:57
Speaker
What did you like and not like about it? I'm curious to hear about that point in time in your life. Yeah, I, um so first thing I'll say is like, I am so fortunate. And I thought at the time, I'm so fortunate to be in a position like my family would probably literally kill to have the opportunity to go in a beautiful city, to go at a law firm and have have no idea what I'm doing and have people pay me that kind of money.
00:07:21
Speaker
And so like, I have to thank my lucky stars, like for any complaints I have about anything. I'm like, I live such a fortunate, you know, life to lucky. I'm so lucky to get to do that.
00:07:32
Speaker
Um, and I think at the time i knew that I didn't really know what I was doing. Um, and I, it's, I, I didn't, no one in my family, I was the first person in my family to go to college. Um, or I thought I was, that's in my podcast later, but, um, but I, I was at time, to my knowledge, uh, the first person in my family to go to college.
00:07:53
Speaker
And I just, it was a whirlwind of this place. Like I didn't know how to behave. I didn't know. I just felt very much like keep to myself and like be just like, loved I loved the work. I loved problem solving.
00:08:05
Speaker
I will say, I years later, I would go on to interview many people and go to OCI at Michigan, you know, and and I, and I interviewed a lot of folks and I, when they, it would always ask me like, what's it like working at a long firm? And I started, I said, my analogy is always, it's like, ah imagine a jar filled with red and green marbles and you're going to close your eyes. you're going to reach in that and going pull out a marble.
00:08:22
Speaker
And in some firms, there's a lot of green marbles that are great work, great partners, great something, great time of your life, like great opportunity. And some are red, bad partner, a jerk, a bad client that's demanding, a bad case that isn't going to advance your career.
00:08:37
Speaker
And I think every firm is red and green marbles. And you just have some firms have way more greens than others. And I think Paul Hastings had a lot of green marbles. And I and i was so fortunate to have...
00:08:48
Speaker
a few people who I had no idea what I was doing. And I, and they took me under their wing at a time when I didn't even understand that that's not something that law firms do. So I was going to monthly mentor dinners with, you know, I, it's funny, no one, most people won't know these names, but i always say them in moments like this, because I want them to get their credit. But like Natty Sakawa and um Todd Williams, um and Tom Brown and Tom Counts were people who like took me and showed me things. And I didn't even know that I that I shouldn't expect that, you know, like you, you just kind of show up and you're like living the life of that you're told to live in the law firm. So I just, I was really fortunate to get really good role models who showed me how to be, and that didn't yell at people and who just like, I didn't even realize how bad it could get in the law.
00:09:31
Speaker
I did, there were a couple of jerks that I encountered and, you know, had to deal with. Um, but at least most of my time, i spent nine years at Paul Hastings and I would say most of my time there, I really enjoyed it. I got to fly all over the world.
00:09:43
Speaker
It was in Korea and Dubai and the UK and China and, you know, just all over. And i I'm just really, i think about my family and I'm like, wow, i'm like I would not, I don't know that they or I would ever believe that I could grow up and do that.
00:09:58
Speaker
You brought up, well, it brought up sort of the adjustment to firm life and how, I think what you're alluding to is it's not just learning about doing the work. There's also a set of sort of like social norms that go along with being at a big law firm or, you know, being at a, a,
00:10:17
Speaker
a sort of high powered, fast growing corporation in a big city in the US of any sort, right?
Overcoming Imposter Syndrome
00:10:24
Speaker
Whether it's a law firm or a bank or company or or what have you.
00:10:28
Speaker
And when we were prepping for this, you also brought up the term imposter syndrome sort of affirmatively, which I i thought was interesting and I wanted to explore that. Do you feel like you had that? Do you feel like you move beyond that at some point?
00:10:43
Speaker
Did those mentors, the names that you think it's important to give credit for that I've forgotten, but will be in the record of this podcast, right? Did they help you move beyond that? I just want to explore this a little bit because not many of my guests bring up that sort of feeling or or sense. Yeah.
00:11:01
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, i so when I moved to San Francisco, i didn't even have a job. I was chasing a girl and i I didn't have this job. And I interviewed at Paul Hastings thinking that I was interviewing for an employment law job.
00:11:14
Speaker
And it was midway through the interview with Ned where he was, it just it became obvious that, you know, at this time, this was like 2005. So, know, I was responding like a newspaper ad or something. Um,
00:11:27
Speaker
So ah he came out in the interview. This is not an employment thing. I acted cool or maybe at the time. And I was like, oh, of course, course. In my head, I was like, oh, shit, this is not a this is a a ah and this is not employment law.
00:11:39
Speaker
I didn't even know what employment law really was. and And so it was litigation. This is a litigation job. And I was like, okay. And they mentioned they had this big case um that could be its own podcast. like He didn't mention it by name because it was secret at the time.
00:11:51
Speaker
But he told me about this case they wanted me on because I was ah ah software developer in the past. And they this case was going to be on software development. And so they really wanted someone with expertise. And so by the time I came in that case, it settled.
00:12:02
Speaker
But I came in and they're like, just kidding. And my first project was 100 bankers boxes of documents, mostly in Chinese, ah that were dumped after an appeal.
00:12:13
Speaker
and where the client had fired their law firm and hired us. And I mean, not me, but hired somebody and I was the one who was given it. And so I was one associate and I was given one hundred bankers boxes full of documents that were about the development of an acetic acid manufacturing plant that were somewhat in Mandarin Chinese.
00:12:31
Speaker
And i just was like, okay. So I was excited. In many ways, I was so focused on the work and the problem solving that I was like, all right, let me get a translator. Let me figure all this out. And I was like a beautiful mind in there, man, with red string trying to connect the dots of this trade secret case and who saw what and when and whatever else.
00:12:47
Speaker
And anyway, i I did when I would stop to think I was so scared because I didn't even want to be a lawyer. The reason, I mean, I applied to be in the FBI after law school. I wanted to be a screenwriter. i would move to l LA for a while. Really? had Yeah, I was trying to do anything in some ways. It wasn't that I was scared of the law necessarily, but I thought, don't know if this my passion.
00:13:05
Speaker
So I applied at the FBI and I, it was only, I'd been working at Paul Hastings for a couple of months and the FBI got in contact with me and they were like, Hey, are are you interested? And I was like, you never got, like, I was like, wait, what?
00:13:15
Speaker
And they had sent my materials to San Diego instead of San Francisco. And I guess the San Diego FBI regional office was trying to get ahold of me and I didn't live there.
00:13:26
Speaker
So anyway, I, at that point was like, all right, I'm staying at, I'm staying at Paul Eastings. Cause this is, I got a bonus to come here. i don't want to clawed back. Like, I guess I got to do this. And I have this memory of going to a partner's house for a poker tournament.
00:13:39
Speaker
I grew up and I should say, I grew up on a farm. Like I grew up when I was for my life. Upstate New York for okay half my life, half my childhood. and and the other half was in rural Florida. and And so i didn't know I'd never tasted wine.
00:13:54
Speaker
i didn't, you know, i didn't know anything. And so I was at this party and someone handed me what I've come to learn now is a tamale. And I just put that bad boy right in my mouth. And with the husk, with the husk, I didn't have no idea. And the person, two people looked at me in retrospect, it's but oh funny so funny.
00:14:14
Speaker
And two people looked at me and they, i they, they assumed, I think that I was being funny. And then I just kept chewing. It was like, I was eating a shoe in, And then fought because they were mini tamales.
00:14:25
Speaker
And anyway, I eventually like grabbed a napkin and like spit out this tamale. But I felt like, man, I remember going through interviews. And the the reason I was so excited about Ned, who's like an incredible human and my biggest mentor was um I looked at him and I thought, this is the only person I've seen. he And just a brief background on that. He grew up in an intern. He was born in internment camp.
00:14:46
Speaker
Oh, wow. Born in internment camp, grew up on a farm. And he was the first person I looked at and was like, you're, I mean, I didn't grow up in attorney camp, but like, you're kind of like me. Like you, I, I could, I could maybe see myself in you somewhat.
00:15:02
Speaker
And that was the first time that I had seen a law in any of my legal interviews or what I had done where I was like this person, I can see a little bit of myself in them. And so in this moment, I think with the tamale and everything else, I had definitely had this imposter syndrome. I mean, I had it all, all throughout my career.
00:15:18
Speaker
but I just focused. I think I just put did a lot of heads down, focus on the problem and just solving whatever problem was ahead of me. And I, and paying off my, my crazy bills and like, just, just moving one foot right in front of the other that I never, when I came up to breathe and looked around though, I was like, man, I don't know half of what these people are talking about. I didn't, you know, I remember getting, they gave me a um,
00:15:41
Speaker
whatever Kate Spade's brother, Jack Spade, they could be a Jack Spade bag. oh yeah. I immediately sold it. Cause I was like, I don't need this. Like why I got, i got like $160 for it. And I was so excited. Cause I was just like, I don't need a fancy bag. I need money.
00:15:57
Speaker
Um, so I just think I was, I was very different. I cut my own hair. Like I just, I don't know. I was, I didn't know anything of what I was doing. I owned one suit at that point in my life and it was green.
00:16:08
Speaker
Um, no one told me like, if you're going to get one suit, don't make it green. green Um, so I was going to every meeting in a, in that I had on like every interview, every wedding in this like olive green suit. I didn't know anything. So yeah, imposter syndrome. I still, i still like, you know, moments in my career now still are all the time where I'm like, I, should I, you know, like I'm, um, the I think there are a lot of tasks I have to do on an everyday basis where I go, that's not my bread and butter.
00:16:32
Speaker
And I go, God, everyone seems to know what they're talking about, about this. And I don't. And I think what has gotten me through it is just like, put my head down and focus on the problem and don't pop my head up for long enough to be like, I don't know what I'm doing.
00:16:45
Speaker
does it inform that that experience, the way you had to learn not just how to solve problems or read a brief or write a really good brief or what have you, um but also navigate the sort of different life that a lot of other folks grew up with that you're surrounded by.
00:17:08
Speaker
um does it inform the way that you hire or the way that you think about people when they come through the door and evaluate
Hiring Philosophy and Mentorship
00:17:16
Speaker
them? I'm just curious. and I'm not, I'm not asking for like policy prescriptions, but how do we fix sort of opportunity in America for more people? Right. But more just like in small ways, does it inform the way that you approach hiring or the way you approach managing your team or the way that you approach,
00:17:35
Speaker
customers who may come through the door and may see things very differently than folks at your company do. Um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There are two things that come to mind. One is, um, my mom worked at a dry cleaner. Like my mom had just the toughest, most demanding, grueling minimum wage jobs.
00:17:56
Speaker
And I thought about it and i was like, why, she did this for me to have opportunity. And I think there's like beauty in that. And it creates this world where when I look at companies, evaluate things, i think, is this what she would have wanted? Like, is this why she did it? And I think if I went to go work for, you know, I don't want crap on any companies, but i go work for company that's like known to be toxic or something or whatever, makes a product that's like not good for the world. I think like, is this why she worked 70 hours a week at a dry cleaner for me to like, I have choice that she never had.
00:18:30
Speaker
And so I think I look for that in other people too. It's not a requirement because actually the other, the second thing I was going to mention is I actually realized I'm very fortunate because I used to think growing up, I'm the guy who grew up on a farm who was like, you know, temporarily homeless for a little bit, who like had this tough life and I had this chip on my shoulder.
00:18:47
Speaker
And then I realized like, I have immutable things about me, about my gender or my race that like make people listen to me more than other people. And that I actually am really fortunate.
00:18:58
Speaker
And so I would say, when I apply this to interviewing, actually, you know what let me back up. and i'll I'll tell like one other brief story. I met this, uh, I went to a party at a friend's house and, um, you can, uh, you can keep this, this a long story. It has a funny punchline, but, um,
00:19:11
Speaker
I like punchlines. yeah Let's do it. So I'm at this party at a friend's house and the friend is like a little bit fancy. And so I show up and I, um, and we get there and it's a murder mystery party. And, uh, so it's like, you know, where we're, it's British. It's, uh, my character and another character are British.
00:19:28
Speaker
Anyway, I get there and it's all, it's like, I think eight people and I know seven of them. And there's one guy there. He's dressed in this like sort of fancy, um, He almost looks like someone who would charge you like $72 for Manhattan or something. Like that's the kind of suit he's wearing. Right.
00:19:41
Speaker
And I'm like a mixologist. And, and, um, got some tails or something like that. Exactly. And like a pocket watch or something. And so anyway, he's, he's there. And first thought I had was like, did she hire a bartender?
00:19:55
Speaker
And because, you know, people do that for parties sometimes. i was like, there's only eight of us here. Anyway, I realized that she says, Oh, it's a friend of mine. And I was like, Oh, okay. She goes, he works. He works with me. and i was like oh, he works at, she supports, um ah she works for private equity. So was like, go works for private equity.
00:20:10
Speaker
So anyway, he does this incredible British accent. He nails it, right? Just like posh British. And he does it. He commits. The whole party he's committing. And I immediately am like, I like this guy.
00:20:21
Speaker
Like he's funny and he's he's in it. And he's not like daunted by this new group of people that he doesn't know. He's like in it. And he's just like, he's, ah you know the thing about a murder mystery is like you could ruin it if you're,
00:20:32
Speaker
If you're like weird about it or you don't you're not into it, one person can ruin it, but one person can also up-level it. He's doing that. Anyway, we do the whole thing. I'm so impressed by him. And at the end, I'm just about to leave, and um I'm talking to him, and I don't know how it comes up, but you know he He mentions, I'm like, how do you know my friend? And he explains it. And then it turns out the story is that he, he knows her because she's, she met him at a party and she was like, Hey, she felt like he, he had a really interesting life story. And she thought I would love to kind of, you know, help you and, and like mentor you. So why don't you come work with me? He's in law school.
00:21:08
Speaker
So then I asked him some questions and it turns out our stories are really similar about how we grew up and what we had gone through. And, and I ended up staying for like an hour. i'm like, you know, waving off my wife being like yeah, yeah, yeah. know, we're going to hold on, hold on, hold on.
00:21:23
Speaker
And, um, I know we got to go, but hold on. And, um, I now have this, like, you know, he's a friend of mine and I, and I think he's in law school and he just, he was telling stories about how he was at a, um,
00:21:36
Speaker
Uh, he would study, you know, his mom worked a restaurant. He would like study and at the restaurant, you know, in the booth while his mom worked. And I just identify with that so strongly. Anyway, I've had this really incredible relationship with him. He's such a good guy. And the thing that he said was like, I've never, he had this moment where he said to me, you're the first person I've ever met in my, he's like, I was so worried that I would go through this whole thing and I would never have someone who I thought is like me.
00:22:02
Speaker
he And I just thought, man, that's what I was looking forward to, you know, someone who is like, like me in some way. And I, not by color, my skin or my, you know, shirt like, but, but like what we'd gone through or how we see the world.
00:22:15
Speaker
And so I think when i when I hire, you know, it's not about the law school that you went to It's not about, you know, your, your pedigree. I mean, it's, don't get me wrong. Like, you know, law school is nice to have, um, it's not, it's not about that. It's about all of these other things. And so I look for and intellectual athleticism and like grit, like, why do you do what you do? Does it come from inside or outside? And are you curious, like these types of things that are more, i think less about what you manifest on a resume and more about like who you are as a person.
00:22:47
Speaker
And I, yeah, I think that's a long answer, but, um, but I just, I think I deeply resonates with me that we need to give chances to people who have interesting perspectives, who have interesting ways to solve problems. And I think there's a classic story people have of saying, you know, my, my dad was a lawyer. My mom was a lawyer. My uncle was a lawyer. Like I know a lot about it.
00:23:05
Speaker
I didn't know anything about it. And I just went into it and like he did too. Um, and I think that there are, showing people and it's not just, you know, me and this guy, like there are other people who have interesting stories too. I, I have another guy i talked to, um, who was arrested in, uh, for, uh, a crime you didn't commit and long when he's a kid and profiled and long story short, there's a story about him on the news. Uh, and he went to Harvard and now I talk to him all the time and he's just like this incredible, he's like built up this career and he's, and he's just like, we need to give people opportunities.
00:23:38
Speaker
And so I would say I'm just trying to give really good people opportunities. I think there's another aspect of what you're saying too, which is that, and we don't have to talk about this for hours, but representation matters as well.
00:23:52
Speaker
Or finding someone who you admire, who shares some of your life story or strong interests or characteristics of your background. I mean, that matters, right?
00:24:03
Speaker
And it's hard to put that into effect at a company or put that into effect in policy because it can become controversial. Yeah. but but that isn right but But it does matter, clearly, for you and for for a lot of others. If you don't see anybody who looks like you in the C-suite or who grew up in circumstances at all like you in the C-suite or, you know, if everybody in the C-suite went to Harvard, if you didn't go to Harvard, you probably don't think you're going to belong there.
00:24:32
Speaker
Yeah, and a total 100%. The thing I think about, too, is like I have this chip on my shoulder. And then I think, I don't know how many female partners are there. Right. I don't have the stats in front of me. Right. It's getting better.
00:24:45
Speaker
But it yeah for I think the report this I might be getting this wrong, but I think the proportion was something like there was equal split of women and men in law school. And then if you look at success after that, like partnership or whatever, it's like, I don't I don't remember the numbers exactly, but it's not good.
00:24:57
Speaker
And I think had this moment where was like, oh man, i people don't see farmer, poor kid, whatever else, when they see me, they just see a guy. In fact, someone said to me recently, they were like, oh man, I thought you grew up with a silver spoon. I was like, that's so funny. But they don't see it. It's not immediately evident.
00:25:14
Speaker
No one's yeah judging me based on this. And I think for a lot of people where it is evident and they are judging, that sucks. Yeah. Sorry. and so yeah And just before I lose the thought, it's, i mean, representation matters intrinsically, right?
00:25:27
Speaker
But it also matters. I think what what you're alluding to too here is it matters because otherwise you leave a lot of talent out there, like on the table or on the cutting room floor. There's a lot of talent that gets wasted, right? Like that's another reason why this really matters.
00:25:42
Speaker
Yeah. And like I'll give you a silly example. You know, I didn't, didn't know how to write like a lawyer. and Or even hand wrote my college application essays. And i know that whoever read those must have thought, huh, handwritten, you know?
00:25:57
Speaker
And so I think, yeah, there's two sides that. One is we need more representation and we need to focus on that. Not just this is this is like a very deep topic around, you know, meritocracy, whatever, but it's like, sure. Get better.
00:26:09
Speaker
You get better. Just there's, it's not, meritocracy is not the reason why women aren't partners at law firms. Like, you know, totally like they got to leave and have a kid and go away for nine months at a place that, that is talks about billing rates and like your realization and all that stuff. that's the reason, right? It's not that they're not good at law.
00:26:24
Speaker
So I think they need to see themselves represented. They need to, you know, I've watched my wife go through this in her life. Like, you know, and And having imposter syndrome herself or feeling like she you know can't say things in a meeting because of who she is, et cetera.
00:26:36
Speaker
And so anyway, I think, yeah, you're right. leaves a lot of talent on the cutting room floor. And it for people like, I mean, the mentee I'm talking about, the guy, the British posh guy, who's not British, but um yeah he's doing phenomenally well in law school.
00:26:50
Speaker
phenomenally well. I got a scholarship and's crushing it, you know, and the piece people have ability. And I think it's just really important that we, that we spot that. And so I love hiring someone with an interesting story or just like, you've got to be good.
00:27:01
Speaker
You know, all those things. I'm not hiring just on story, um but I just love someone with a different perspective or can show me, tell me something that i don't know about. I think you're a pretty independent thinker, or you seem like a pretty independent thinker.
00:27:12
Speaker
What was it? Was that something that drove you in-house?
Career Transitions and Impact
00:27:16
Speaker
Tell me a little bit more of the story of how did you end up leaving the law firm, going in-house, eventually sort of transitioning to become ah a GC and a generalist?
00:27:28
Speaker
I mean, from the outside, it seems like your personality is a pretty good fit in some ways for being like a generalist GC. But I'm curious how that how that actually came about. That might not have been the reason. I don't know.
00:27:39
Speaker
know, it's funny. I think I just put my head down. I was at Paul Heaston's for nine years. And I just had a good time. Like I was like, this is great. And I think I'm the kind of person where I just felt like I'm really fortunate. This is great. I'll keep doing this.
00:27:50
Speaker
I didn't really have a career plan. I wasn't sure I wanted to be a partner. I think honestly, the reason I want to be a partner was like pride. You're going to, you're going to give me that. Cause I deserve that. Cause I've done really good work.
00:28:01
Speaker
Yeah. And there was this moment where I was, uh, working on this case and the partner comes to me and he's like, well, case for a Korean client. And the partner comes to me and he's like, Hey, you know, it's a really big case. Like the, you know, the biggest billing case that year.
00:28:14
Speaker
And they're mobilizing like 50 lawyers on this thing. Like it's huge. And he comes to my office and he's like, Hey, will you come in here for a second? So I go in there and he goes, um, you know, we need someone to go to Korea to really like lead a team there and help with the work product. And I was like, okay.
00:28:28
Speaker
And he says, are you, are you willing to be nominated? Yeah. And I, it's such a clever, yeah, it's such a clever, if you think about, know if there was intent there or not, but like, it's such a clever way to ask someone on something. Cause I was like, how can you turn down being nominated for something?
00:28:43
Speaker
So I was like, yeah, okay. Get back to my office and maybe like, don't remember exactly. 30 minutes later, I get an another phone call and it's the co-head of litigation at Paul Hastings. And he says, congratulations. You know, like you've won, you're going to Korea.
00:28:59
Speaker
And I'm like, what? And this is in one day, like one day I wake up that day. i live in San Francisco. And then he's like, you leave next Friday. It was an intense vetting process. It was just, and I'm like, what?
00:29:11
Speaker
So I get, I'm like, I guess I'm moving to Korea. I just, I just started dating someone who's now my wife. This sent us into like Rocky territory. Cause yeah. 13 hour difference. And it's a whole thing.
00:29:23
Speaker
So I really, it's a big ask for me. I have a dog that I had to just leave. i mean, I didn't just leave it. Someone took care of it, but you know, I me and that dog guy. So I've got all these things and i anyway, I moved to Korea and when I come back, Oh, and I forgot to mention on the call, the, the co-head of litigation is like, you know, this is so good for your career. getting up there in years. I mean, law firm years, um, you know, things are great.
00:29:46
Speaker
These are great. you know, you're doing well. This really great opportunity for you. Okay. Okay. So I'm thinking about that when I'm spending like $9 and an orange, ah because we produce could be very expensive or was at the time, at least um I'm thinking about this call.
00:30:00
Speaker
So i come back. This is all over. I come back and I'm like, all right, let's go. So I call. i so No answer. I email. No answer. And the thing is, some dynamics have changed. you know the this is I guess this is like interesting for for listeners, whatever. But yeah if you don't, at law firms, a lot of times, the idea of you making partner, at least at the law firm I was at, was based on office dynamics. So you had to have a powerful office because people have to like put you up for promotion to partner.
00:30:27
Speaker
So you need an office that's powerful and that in that exact moment. And so the San Francisco office of all these things, um, I'm definitely spilling some secrets here. I guess not really secrets, but like they were very powerful when I joined by the time this moment came around, the office was less powerful because the work had sort of net exported out some other offices. so we were like kind of at a low point in like the power dynamics of San Francisco.
00:30:49
Speaker
So, um, All of that good news is like, yeah, maybe there's not, maybe there's not enough power here to get this for you. So I can't even get ahold of the guy who called me the first time. He won't even respond to me.
00:31:02
Speaker
And I am a defiant kid. So I was like, oh yeah. Yeah. And I just lost my shit and was like, let's go then. So a partner had come to me in my office and he had said like, hey, there's this role at Capital One and I really think you'd like it. And the thing about, you probably know this, but like at a law firm, um a lot of times when they come to you and say that, that means like you need to get out.
00:31:22
Speaker
So i I asked and I said like, to be clear, is this an offer I can't refuse? And the partner was like, no I just like think you'd be a great fit. And it turns out I've known this partner now for many years and and he was he's been my champion. He's an incredible guy.
00:31:34
Speaker
And so I interviewed being like, all right, you know kind of F Paul Hastings. like let me Let me feel this out. So I interviewed and I was like, whoa, actually really like this job. and i And I kind of in some ways wanted to get closer to product. so I thought, okay.
00:31:47
Speaker
um And I took it and i didn't look back. And I think it was, um I had my own startup kind of at the time. like I knew I wanted to get deeper into product, but I think there's just something about me of feeling like,
00:31:59
Speaker
I'm fortunate to be happy that in those moments when I am happy, I don't want to change it. And so I think I just for so long, just like kept my head down. And when I popped up due to anger, I was like, oh okay. Yeah. you know what? I should leave anyway. And now looking back on it, I still loved my time there. I probably could have left two years, two years earlier, maybe would have been better for my career or something, but I can't really fault myself too much for that. Cause I just, I was happy. I was like, this is working out for me.
00:32:22
Speaker
Was there ah point in time then where you thought to yourself, hey, I really want to become a GC? Or was it more about getting in deeper into product and knowing that... i Capital One, i don't i don't know how the organization is structured, but it's a huge company, right?
00:32:40
Speaker
So if you go and you join... your typical Series B, Series D, whatever it is, startup in the Bay Area, you're going to have a lot more autonomy and also a lot more responsibility no matter what role you're in.
00:32:54
Speaker
I'm curious what it was that motivated you to to make the jump to GC. And also if you thought that was a hard leap to make. Yeah. You know, the first, when I interviewed a capital one, um, my boss said to me, you know, if you work this job for five years, you could be a GC, you know, you work here five years be a GC. And the craziest thing is I left that job exactly five years to the day, not intentionally. It's just how it worked out and went to go be a GC. And I, um,
00:33:20
Speaker
The job was I was what they call Capital One, a business council, which is basically like a product council, but you're responsible for most areas of law that are not that are not like inward facing. They're like regulatory stuff. So you don't do like employment matters, but you do a lot of the other stuff. So it's kind of like a mini GC. That's what they pitched it to me as. And it was it was awesome. I loved my time at Capital One. Shout out Capital One.
00:33:39
Speaker
And, but I just got to this point. well um I was, I was representing one of my, one my areas I represented was the incubator that Capital One had. And it was so cool. They put like a billion dollars into this idea of building the future banking. They want to hire a bunch of startup people.
00:33:53
Speaker
And so I helped them. So i I supported them. I was their only lawyer. Oh, well, I would go work with other lawyers, but I was the representative. And cool long story short, it was amazing job. I loved it.
00:34:04
Speaker
um And, but in that, in that, I thought like we had someone who I grew really close to is now a friend of mine was ah on the business side. And he was a startup guy who formed his own company before this.
00:34:15
Speaker
And I can't say what the idea was because it, Never really saw the light of day. So what I'll say is it was an idea that he had to build where he built this thing and he went into a meeting and he showed in in pitching this to to ah a customer, um a big institutional customer.
00:34:29
Speaker
The customer was like, I will pay you $100,000 PDF. So you know, when someone is willing to pay you a hundred thousand dollars for a PDF that you made. Yeah. data And by the way, the data is like, you know, it's anonymized data.
00:34:41
Speaker
Um, you had something. I was so psyched about this product. So psyched. I was like, this is so, I was in it with him. I'm like, we're doing this. And then it got killed and it got killed for like classic bank reasons of like, I don't know, reputation or something. And i'm like, reputation, what do you mean? This is an anonymized data.
00:34:58
Speaker
And they just like, yeah, but it feels reputationy, which is if you're at a bank right now, you're nodding along with me being like, that drives me crazy. um And so anyway, they didn't make it. And he left because like, that's what a lot of people do when their ideas that are great don't get made. And I just thought, I got, I want to, I love it here. Like if you're going to work at a bank, go work at Capital One. It's amazing. Go do it. If you want to work at a bank, no better bank to work at my opinion, having only worked at one, but still it seems good.
00:35:20
Speaker
Um, so, but I will say that I wanted to be closer to something that made a difference in the world. The capital one does make a difference, but not in a, not in a, in a big macro machine way, not in like yeah a small way.
00:35:35
Speaker
And so the same guy weirdly who had come in my office at Paul Hastings and said, you want to take this job at cap or do you want to interview the job at capital one saw me in an airport. or no, on the way to court or something. I don't know, somewhere. i forget. We were at a conference.
00:35:48
Speaker
And he said, hey, you get my email? And i was like, no. goes, oh yeah, I got an email. um And he was like, there's a GC job at Digit. was like, oh no, I didn't see it. I think you emailed someone else, man. like i don't I'm pretty good at seeing my email.
00:36:01
Speaker
And so he sent it. Anyway, i interviewed and I was like, I love this. And so I went there and I wanted to change to help people save money. And so I just like kind of It was a mixture of, i want to swing at some pitches. you know i really want to be out there swinging. and And I want to do something that's like good for the world.
00:36:16
Speaker
I hear that from even folks who've been in seat and maybe like their first GC job somewhere. like When they think about the next thing, they think, I want to swing. I want to take a big swing. I want to swing at some pitches. I want to feel like I'm at a place that is going to make...
00:36:32
Speaker
a real impact. What are the most important leverage points you feel like for you in your, your different roles? Cause you've been GC now three times. is that right?
00:36:43
Speaker
Like, do you feel like you've accomplished that? do you feel like, you know, where, where do you feel like your biggest points of leverage are as the GC for, I don't know, living out that, like, I'm going to make an impact on this business. I'm going to help this business grow in the right way.
00:37:00
Speaker
I it's funny. There's a feeling that I had sometimes when I was dating where I would this will come around. Don't worry. Yeah. Where where you talk to someone and they give you credit for something. They'd be like, wow, you like walked me home and didn't try to like make it weird. And I'm like, what?
00:37:15
Speaker
And you just realize the bar is so low sometimes for people that you're like, oh, that impressed you. Like that is just like what I view as being a normal human. I think lawyers are like generally you know, i don't like it's being a great business person as a lawyer is not necessarily like a lawyer skill set.
00:37:33
Speaker
And so I think there are things that sometimes that I just, I think I'm just acting like someone who didn't grow up dreaming of being a lawyer. Like I think I just treat problems like problems and not lawyer specific. Like I'm not out there saying like, Oh, you haven't read the latest Supreme court opinion on this. havent you have you um and And so I think I just wasn't inherently a no person. Like I wanted products to get made.
00:37:52
Speaker
And so the bar was, people hearing that I really wanted products to get made. I remember interviewing for the digit job and I talked to the head of product and he, he asked me a question and we excitedly whiteboarded it. This was back in the days of like in person, but like we're sitting there like whiteboarding this problem.
00:38:06
Speaker
And my understanding later, um is he told me that he was like banging the drum for me because he's like, we need someone who's excited to whiteboard something with me. Um, guy.
00:38:18
Speaker
And so I think now the way that I look at my career and the impact that I've had is I don't think about, I think I need to meet a bar of doing something good for the world, but I don't have to, my mom, you know, this is uh, she passed away, which is sad, but it's okay.
00:38:34
Speaker
Um, but she, she died penniless, but she left a huge impact on the world.
The Role of Mentoring in Career Development
00:38:39
Speaker
Not because she made some open AI thing, but because like people showed up at a funeral, whose lives were changed by her.
00:38:45
Speaker
And that's how I think about my job. I don't need to, I don't want to work at a job that does something bad. I want to work at a job that does something good right now. I work at Nova credit and Nova credit makes getting access to the financial system easier for people without credit, which is often newcomer immigrants or newcomers.
00:39:00
Speaker
um Or people even new to credit, which is another sure like I was um who didn't have any idea how to work in the credits, how to how to exist in the credit system when I joined the workforce. So I'm making a difference.
00:39:11
Speaker
But I think also it's about the people's lives who both are customers our are consumers who use our products and the people I work with. Like I want them the same way my boss said to me, you could be a GC in five years. I want to do that for other people.
00:39:24
Speaker
And so I, I did that when I joined digit for my first hire at digit. Um, she said she wanted to be a GC someday and I was like, okay. So worked with her on that. And the first job she let, we got acquired, she left and she went to go be a GC.
00:39:38
Speaker
And i just felt like, hell yeah. Like that is, that's the real stuff right there. Like that's the thing that matters. And I think, you know, especially since my mom passed, like I'm really focused on the things that matter. And I think my opinion of what matters has changed a bit since then.
00:39:52
Speaker
Sure. I had one guest on, um, the GC at solar city, then in Marquetta. Um, we talked about his coaching tree is like GC coaching tree a lot. And I really liked that, uh, that analogy.
00:40:08
Speaker
Um, and, and part of the thrust of that question, I guess, which was not in the script, by the way, for those listening. So I threw Ryan a curve ball. Um, it was, you are also head of people now.
00:40:19
Speaker
And so, you know, if you think about like leverage and making impact on the things that you care about, and I'm also curious why you decided to take on the people function as well. And if you felt like that was an important piece of the puzzle that you didn't have just as as GC, or if you felt like that was, you know, crucial to helping set the culture for the business or the tone for the business, why'd you want to take that on too?
00:40:42
Speaker
I think it's some way. So at at one of my the startup I was at, i I always have a little bit of imposter syndrome, even on the business side, because I'm i'm the lawyer in the room. So if I'm in an exec meeting and someone's talking about some product thing and I'm like, what if we X, there's always a part my brain that's like, dude, you don't know. What do you know?
00:40:58
Speaker
don't make products right now. Like, what are you doing? Right. And i I still try to find a way to present what I think would be valuable. But I, you know, there's a little bit of that imposter syndrome. So I had this ah person come on, first head of people, I think.
00:41:10
Speaker
Yeah. At a company I was at. And first thing he said to me was like, when I joined, no, not for later, he said, the first thing I thought when I joined was, why are we hiring me when Ryan should be the head of people?
00:41:20
Speaker
And it was such a kind thing to say. and I thought like, oh, he's being kind. But then I thought about it. I asked him, i was like, did you really believe He's like, yeah And I said, why? And he walked me through and I was like, huh. And so I thought about it I was like, you know what? I do long for having more business impact and doing more things. And I and i tell you right now, if i I'm pretty sure if if being a lawyer meant working at a law firm, I wouldn't be i wouldn't be a lawyer right now.
00:41:43
Speaker
Like I basically like my trend line has been much more toward the the product side and the business side. And so I just thought, what's the next step there? And I thought being kind of like a COO, I'm not the COO, but like being like a COO.
00:41:56
Speaker
um And so anyway, i I, when I was looking at a role, they actually, it was a perfect dovetail because they were looking for someone to manage that function as well. And one of the things I said when I joined was, I know a lot of lawyers represent other groups.
00:42:09
Speaker
I just want to make really clear. If I do this, I'm doing it. Like I'm not going to half ass manage a department where I like oversee them, but not really like I'm going to do you this. And to be clear, I don't have the skillset to be a true right now, like head of people.
00:42:26
Speaker
Like I hired a Lieutenant and she is incredible. And I give all Any success that I've had there is because she has supported me. And I think my thing is I can make her work better, but she is the reason that I'm successful at that, and but i'm I'm learning it.
00:42:40
Speaker
And so I've taken on a few different departments now, and that is my that is my thing. If i I can make someone better, um and that's a really hard thing to do, to hire someone to in an area you're not an expert in.
00:42:52
Speaker
to help you. And I have to give a shout out to TechGC too, because I went there for one of their their things and I sat at a table and we taught there was a group that was talking about managing other functions. I went to one of the round tables on being a COO and I asked people, like I asked for advice and like how do you do And one person said, him it's just all about my lieutenant. I forgot who it was now. So shout out to that person. but um But anyway, it was it was something for me where I thought, okay, like you know i can i can try to do this. And so i don't have the I don't sit here and think I like I get now on LinkedIn because they're through their algorithm. They're like, you had a people job you might be interested in. I'm like, you got the wrong guy. I'm not a I'm not like right now. I'm not going to step up and be like, I am the head of people. But like for Nova credit, um I'm I'm a good you know, i I have incredible support, but we have a wonderful, exceptional people team and we're and we're I think we're crushing it. And so I'm i'm proud of that.
00:43:41
Speaker
Has that experience of of being responsible, not in an interim capacity, being responsible for the people function, being in there working with them on it day to day, has it changed anything about the way that you manage or build your own legal team?
00:43:59
Speaker
Yeah. I think being the head of other departments gives you a glimpse into the skill set that it takes to do that thing. And they're, they're actually, you know, what's weird is like my, when I hired my director people, I was nervous because ah hiring a role that you don't know how to do is like one of the hardest things to do, in my opinion.
00:44:17
Speaker
So I really went back and to the i um actually worked with one of our investors to get someone who's like an expert in HR, who's ah their HR person and to help me on the process and to even interview some people.
00:44:28
Speaker
And what I realized, though, is that the most of my criteria for hiring were the same. It was just adding and you got to be really good at understanding people, the people function. So intellectual curiosity, intrinsic motivation, um, uh, curiosity, uh, and empathy were all the same things. And so I rant, some of my standard questions I use in an interview is the same ones. It's just, now I had to ask also about like testing that intellectual athleticism and around a skillset to, to actually like do this thing. So people, whether it's people or something else, I, what I learned was to make sure I'm finding well-rounded people.
00:45:02
Speaker
Um, versus like focusing too much on, we all have had that person who works at a company who sucks, but they're so good at their job that everyone's like, well, you got to deal with so-and-so because they're crushing it, you know? Um, and I think I, what I learned was don't do that.
00:45:17
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Switching gears. I want to ask you about your podcast. before we do sort of traditional closing questions and and wrap up, tell us about your podcast and and where it
Personal Projects and Family Legacy
00:45:31
Speaker
came from. And um you've really committed to it too, it sounds like, at least from our conversation. This isn't, you know, hey, I sat down and like recorded my thoughts for an hour, three times, and I'm calling it a podcast.
00:45:45
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, I've put a lot of time into it. It's um it starts off in that same sad now, which is my mom passed away two and a half years ago. And um a little bit of very brief backstory. um I didn't ah my dad.
00:45:58
Speaker
I live with my dad um when I was like two to 15 and I would spend the summers with my mom. And only when my dad and my stepmother divorced, did I go and live with my mom for a few years ah in high school?
00:46:08
Speaker
So I didn't know my mom like most people know their mom. um i love I loved my mom and I longed for my mom and I wanted to be with her so badly, but I didn't get that chance till I was 15. And I loved It it was the but best years of my life. um But when she passed, I was going through her stuff and I found a letter that she had written me when I was actually at that startup.
00:46:29
Speaker
um And she had mentioned that she'd never sent the letter, um but she'd mentioned this to me because I remember it. because She had mentioned, oh, your birthday. She's like, I have a letter. I'm not sure going to send it. And I thought that she just meant like, oh, it doesn't matter if I send this letter or not because, you know, I'll tell you what's in it or something.
00:46:40
Speaker
But it's not what she meant. um She meant, I'm not sure if I'm i'm going to you know if i want to send this message to you. And so I saw it and I was like, I immediately remembered what it was. was like, oh my God. like Because it was sealed.
00:46:51
Speaker
It just was never sent to me. No stamp. So I opened it and it was a letter she had written me about how um from 2002... two About 2001? Yeah.
00:47:03
Speaker
About, um I know I'm going to die someday. And when I do, i i need you to I want you to be closer to your brother and sister, your older brother and sister, her other children. um I know you're not right now. And i want that. And someone needs to hold the family together and sort of, you know, I want it to be you.
00:47:19
Speaker
And what she didn't know when she wrote the letter is that over the next 20 years, I wouldn't grow any closer to those older brothers and sisters. I mean, we're not, we weren't like enemies or anything. It's just we weren't close at all.
00:47:30
Speaker
And so I thought, oh, and then I found a, well, you know, what a, what a thing to think about. And so then I found a book she had started writing about her life. And then um I read that. And then the third thing I found in her room was um ah she had when i'd I'd come one day over ah to her house and she had this thing tape or magnet to the side of the fridge clipped on him. Those magnet clips inside the fridge. and Long story short, I opened it up and it had paper in it that had like five people's names and then a few songs and then $500 cash in this envelope. And I was like, Mom, what is this? And she said, it's my funeral thing. And I was like what?
00:48:04
Speaker
She goes, those are the people who are not invited to my funeral. the songs I want played and $500 for my funeral. And I was like, well, number one, $500 is not going to pay for your funeral. Number two, what do you envision happening at your funeral? You think I'm going to bounce your funeral? You think I'm going to be like, no, you're not going to close the velvet rope and not allow someone through the front door. So she did two things in response to that, that I learned.
00:48:26
Speaker
um One is she changed her list from um people who are not invited to people who are affirmatively invited. I like that. And then two, and I found that in a yellow pad in her room.
00:48:37
Speaker
And then two is she asked someone else who's, uh, she was more confident would actually bounce people who are not on the list. So she, she chose a different bouncer. So anyway, i i looked at these things and I thought, you know,
00:48:50
Speaker
I'm going to try to tie these all together. So I left my job and I moved to Florida to learn about my brother and sister. And I dragged, um, a ton of recording gear.
00:49:01
Speaker
And I thought, you know what, I'm going to tell her story. I'm going to finish her book. And this is a person who nobody knows. No one knows my mom. Like she lived this tiny life, but she was an incredible person.
00:49:12
Speaker
and she lived this life of, I can't, there's just so much to it. And I, and like, there's, there's, but what I'll say is um in the, so the hook here is in the process that the a few nights after my mom died or the the night of her ah memorial, I was on the porch and my brother and I are not close or we're not close.
00:49:31
Speaker
And um he says to me on the porch, he's like, you know, I'm crying. And he says, um you know, he's trying to bond with me. And he's like, And I said, I just, I feel regret. I feel like I left Florida. Like I had this opportunity to live with this woman who meant so much to me.
00:49:45
Speaker
And I, and left to go to college and he sort of like, you know, waved that thought aside. And he said, I was in prison for 10 years. how do you think I feel? And, and I knew he had gone to prison.
00:49:59
Speaker
But for the first time ever, I asked him why. he told me this long story that i we can't go into fully now, but let's just say that at the, about my mom, like kind of as an accomplice after the fact and like all this stuff. And so at the end of it, I said, um there was, he talked about what he stole and, you know, it's wild, it's a wild story, but he talked about what he stole.
00:50:21
Speaker
And the end of it, he he's, you know, he listed what he did with all the stuff he stole. And, but there was one thing that he didn't list. And I said, hey, What happened to the gold? And he goes, oh, I buried it.
00:50:33
Speaker
was like, buried it he's like, yeah. Why'd you, what? And he goes, yeah, I just didn't want to I couldn't get it out of of the safe. And I didn't want to get caught with it.
00:50:44
Speaker
So I buried it. So I said, hold on. So I said, where did you bury it? And he said he was at at a and friend's house and he just like got in his motorcycle and drove. And i was like, okay. So, um, I said, pull up Google maps and I'm following along on Google maps. And he's like, I did this and this and this, and then I turn it to satellite view and I see, and I go, wait, is this it? And I turn and show it to him.
00:51:05
Speaker
And he goes, Oh yeah. Yeah. That's it. And there's not, it's not developed. It's, i mean, there's, there's houses like nearby, but it's, yeah and so I paused and I said, Sean,
00:51:17
Speaker
do you want to go dig up this gold and give it back to the people you stole it from? And he was like, okay. So it took me long time. I mean, I've investigated like crazy. um And i set out across the U S interviewing every person on my mom's funeral list.
00:51:33
Speaker
um Wow. And yeah, asking them about her life and what she did. And I found, I mean, let me just say, I have, there are like mobster bombings, people being cut in half. Uh, the F like FBI was involved, uh, fleeing the States, people, drug traffic. Like it's just, it's a crazy life. And the crazy part about it is when, before she died, um she's in the hospital and, um, she grabbed my hand and she said, i've I have secrets, Ryan secrets. Um,
00:52:05
Speaker
And I said, mom, you know, don't worry about it right now. And she died before I got a chance to get to them. And so this is me getting to them. When and where can we stream it?
00:52:17
Speaker
Well, it's been, I'm not kidding when I say it's been probably, don't know, I've lost track now. It's gotta be 1200 hours of work. I mean, it's just like I've done, I've done hundreds of hours of interviews and I did it documentary style, which I probably didn't need to do right now since there's a podcast.
00:52:32
Speaker
Um, but I have just like all of this footage. And so I'm hoping by the end of the year to get it done. I work on it pretty much every, almost every night. um And it's been like a labor of love. And i I really just enjoy getting closer to my mom and finding out. I mean, hi what's crazy about it is um the story is wild. And I feel such a responsibility to tell it because the one thing that I i mentioned before is I wanted to be a screenwriter.
00:52:58
Speaker
And there's a part of me that's like, the ability to use that thing that I gave up on to sort of tell my mom's story is like the most impactful thing I could have ever done with it. And so it's really given me like a a new lease on on, you know, on, i don't know, life or career or something to get a chance to do this.
00:53:16
Speaker
Awesome. I, for one, am excited to hear when it comes out. ah la Florida Gold. Whenever it comes out. Available where all fine podcasts are downloaded, hopefully by the end of 2025. Cool.
00:53:27
Speaker
cool All right. Before we wrap up, I've got a few traditional closing questions that I think are kind of fun that I ask all my guests.
00:53:39
Speaker
The first one is, what's your favorite part of your day to day? um i think i like i I like solving people problems now. ah There was a moment I used to just... i'm um I'm so, I will shorten this story. I'm so prone to long stories. ah um I was, when I left Paul Hastings, I know, hopefully you can edit this down.
00:54:00
Speaker
um Long story short, I was at Paul Hastings and I wrote this brief that no one wanted to take because it was a loser of an argument kind of, and I wrote the hell out of it. And I was, and we won and everyone, I mean, the appellate lawyers were like, good job. We should have appellate lawyer tells wrote something well. It means like you really wrote it well. And I was like on cloud nine. I feel like Rudy getting carried out of a stadium and people's shoulders.
00:54:20
Speaker
And then I realized, um, it was, uh, it, uh, the lawyers will understand that litigators will understand this, but it was an opposition to emotion to, to, to stay. So essentially what we were saying was like, have the trial faster, which courts don't like to do.
00:54:30
Speaker
yeah So the court said like, you get it faster, Ryan, you win. And I should credit, I worked with, um, two other lawyers who did great work on it, but, um, and, uh, we won and it was such a big moment. And then I thought about it and i was like, they, so the the trial happened and we lost.
00:54:45
Speaker
And I was like, great, great. I made it happen faster. And I'm like, my crowning literary achievement is writing a thing that got us to lose faster. We won on appeal though, so hooray. But um but anyway, what then I think about this moment that I had with that with an employee who I had to have a really tough people conversation with. They had scream with someone and I thought that they were wrong and I told them they were wrong.
00:55:08
Speaker
um And ah anyway, i was meeting with her in New York and over dinner and she said, you know, remember that time? and i was like, yeah, she goes, that's the best anyone's ever handled me. I can be tough sometimes. And even my husband like can't doesn't handle me that well.
00:55:22
Speaker
And I was like, huh. And so I think to me, that is the essence, like solving a people problem or giving something either whether it's, you know, ah ah in the negative of like having to deal with something or in the positive of helping someone achieve something that they thought they couldn't do or that they wouldn't be able to or something like that's the good stuff.
Solving People Problems as Meaningful Work
00:55:38
Speaker
And those two skill sets don't always go together. Lucky yeah I'm very thankful. Okay. It's not quite the opposite. I think it's funnier. A professional pet peeve that you have.
00:55:50
Speaker
Um, Okay, I'll tell you right now, it used to be if you didn't Google something before we talked. Used to be if you didn't put in the work to Google this before we talked, why are we doing this? Like, you know, do the work, do the pre-work, right?
00:56:03
Speaker
And now it's, it's I know some people are going to hate this, but now it's like we have Claude at Art So Lake. whatever one you use. But like, I'm like, did you Claude this? i don't have Claude as a verb now, but it's like, did you, did you test this? Did you, if you're not doing that on a problem and you're coming to someone else to solve it, like do in look, Claude can be wrong. Yeah. Hallucinating all this stuff, but it's right a lot of the time and you can double check how it's right if you know how to.
00:56:27
Speaker
So I think my pet peeve at work is number one, be empathetic and understand how people operate. But number two is, um, is like, do the work, like do the work, like figure out problem solve, like,
00:56:38
Speaker
advance move the ball forward before you come to someone else. That's an important lesson, I think. Well, most people should learn earlier in their careers is take a beat and think about, think about the problem before you go and ask for help or ask for a solution. Or even if yeah I've always found, even if your proposed solution is terrible or is wrong, or at at least you, at least you thought about it. I really liked that answer. That's a good one.
00:57:05
Speaker
Uh, all process. I don't, this is the thing. They like poker. Just have good process. We might lose. and might get it wrong. Have good process. All right, do you have a book? And this can be professional. This can be fun.
00:57:16
Speaker
There's no rules about this, but a book that you would like to recommend to our audience to read. I'm going to cheat and do two because they're very different. One is It's such a weird recommendation, but I read it when I was in high school. It's called, uh, phantoms in the brain and it's by Dr. V.S. Ramakandran.
00:57:34
Speaker
And I will just say it's sparked. It's about the ways that the brain, like learning about how the brain operates by people basically like messing some things up. So if you've ever heard of the book, like the man who was took a away for his hat or something, um, there's, there's these like crazy things that happen in the brain and it sparked my curiosity about the human brain in such a way that it's been like a lifelong obsession with it. So.
00:57:53
Speaker
the s armachandran phantoms in the brain the other one is dark matter which is also also a show on apple tv they made it based on the book it's my favorite book and i think it just gets you um to think about your life and i don't want to spoil it i'm a big i'm big no spoiler guy now so let me just say this if you have liked this interview don't look it up and if you like science fiction and don't look it up just read or watch dark matter cool cool all right My final question, traditional closing question.
00:58:22
Speaker
We've covered some of this ground probably, but ifs if you could look back on your days being a young lawyer, so maybe at Paul Hastings, just getting started, something that you know now that you wish that you'd known back then?
00:58:39
Speaker
I think that you're safe, that like you're going to be OK and that like life will be good. And that, you know, i think so much we get caught up in this idea of of what matters in life and and like what is the most important thing. And, you know, some people it's like a partnership or your next review or whatever it is.
00:59:01
Speaker
And I think that for me, part of the reason I stayed for so long was I was happy. So, you know, credit to the people at policies who made that possible for me. Um, but I think what I would say to people is like, back up a little bit and just look at like, you know, we are so fortunate to get to do what we get to do. And there are, you know, you can have your complaints, but I work from home. i sit at this desk. I like see my wife, I get up, I stand up and I see my wife 30 seconds later and like, I have a great life. And so Um, I would say even at that age, like I had a great life. So I would say, don't get too caught up in the day to day, be better, be good do good, be good at your job, do good work, set boundaries, set boundaries about what you're willing to take and not take and make sure you preserve your mental health and your happiness because no job we have, you, this is something I mentioned to that.
00:59:47
Speaker
Um, like the, you know, non-posh British guy was like, you've made it. I know you're worried about making it because to you making it is the next thing, but you are at a great law school and you made it, man. Your mom's proud of you. Like you made it.
01:00:01
Speaker
And so I would say for people focus on what matters and recognize that like you made it. I love that. Brian, this has been a real pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me for this episode of the abstract.
01:00:14
Speaker
Thanks so much for having me. I really had a great time. And to all of our listeners, thanks so much for tuning in And we hope to see you next time.