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Ep 86: Why In-House Lawyers Need Each Other with Shai Mehani, CEO In-House Connect
84 Plays9 days ago
Why build a big tent community of in-house lawyers without restrictions on who can join? How do you manage the transition from in-house lawyer to founder? And can you keep space for your religious faith during the process?
Join Shai Mehani, co-founder and CEO of In-House Connect, as he shares why he left his career as a corporate counsel behind to lead a thriving community of more than fifty thousand in-house lawyers that offers connection, education, professional advancement and more.
Listen as Shai discusses his journey from matrimonial law to corporate counsel, transforming a regular meetup for lawyers into an extraordinary organization, finding unexpected benefits in fractional work, the best way to quit a job, and the importance of prioritizing personal faith and family over your career.
Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-86
Topics
Introduction: 0:00
Why Shai went to law school: 2:46
Starting his legal career in matrimonial law: 5:34
The beginnings of In-House Connect: 12:49
Expanding beyond NYC and online: 19:45
Taking an inclusive big tent approach: 23:47
Taking on fractional work: 30:15
Going all-in on In-House Connect: 36:52
The best way to quit job: 42:47
Finding guidance in your faith: 46:00
What’s next for In-House Connect: 50:09
How to contact Shai and get involved: 55:29
Rapid-fire questions: 56:17
Connect with us:
Shai Mehani - https://www.linkedin.com/in/shaimehani/
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft
SpotDraft is a leading contract lifecycle management platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues.
Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.
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Transcript
A Journey to Observance
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm Jewish. I'm observant. um I observe the Sabbath. I observe the the holidays. um And it's wonderful. But I wasn't always this way. It's it's really funny. In Saks, I sat next to a lovely young lady who was observant. right I wasn't observant at the time, but she was. And i was she sat right next to me and...
00:00:22
Speaker
I would see her leave early, right? On Fridays. I'm still working. She's leaving early because she had the courage to insist on, you know, or to to set that boundary. Right.
00:00:33
Speaker
And I felt like so stupid. i I remember her like walking out and I'm like still here. you know what I mean? Like I'm still working. And really, I think, you know, whoever, whatever, whoever the people out there, if they're listening, if they are in the similar shoes,
00:00:46
Speaker
take your time, take your holidays, whatever they are. Like, it doesn't matter. Like some things come before, for work.
Introducing Shai Mahani and Professional Background
00:01:01
Speaker
Why build a big tent community of in-house lawyers without restrictions on who can join? How do you manage the transition from in-house lawyer to founder?
00:01:14
Speaker
And can you keep space for your religious faith during the process? Today we are joined on the abstract by my friend Shai Mahani, co-founder and CEO of In-House Connect.
00:01:28
Speaker
In-House Connect is a thriving community of more than 50,000. Is that right? 50,000? That's correct. Yeah. In-House Lawyers. And it's the place that they turn for connection, education, and advancement.
00:01:42
Speaker
Shai has practiced data privacy, marketing law, and commercial contracts in-house at companies like Altice, Saks Fifth Avenue, maybe where he buys his classy blazers like he has on, and Power Technologies.
00:01:59
Speaker
Earlier in his career, he spent time as a litigator and as a clerk for a superior court judge in New Jersey.
Path to Law School and Career Decisions
00:02:07
Speaker
Shai, thank you so much for joining me today for this episode of The Abstract. It's a pleasure to be here.
00:02:13
Speaker
And now I'm thinking about my suits from the Saks days, but I don't think they fit me anymore. a little bit remiss about that. It's because you've been bulking up, right? Yes. Yes.
00:02:25
Speaker
hitting Hitting the hotel gyms as you travel around the United States. Definitely. That's exactly where you'll find me. But it's ah wonderful to be here and thank you so much for the opportunity. Yeah, I'm excited to do this. And I'm glad that we get to do it in person in New York together. It's a lot more fun, I think, being face to face than on a glorified version of a zoom call. oh Those those episodes are good, too. and Okay, let's get started.
00:02:48
Speaker
I want to start with you with why you wanted to go to law school. I don't ask that of every guest, but I think it's a good place for us to us to start. Yeah. So I wish I had an exciting story about like an uncle or, you know, some some transformative event where I like, you know, I save somebody from a lot, you know, from prison sentence or something.
00:03:07
Speaker
I have the most boring origin law school story. i you know, in college, I was good at reading and writing. I did the poli-sci thing, and the next logical extension was ah law school.
00:03:22
Speaker
And that also made my mom really happy, which was a huge bonus. And I have a really funny story um about why I picked the law school i i I went to. I went to Brooklyn Law School. Yeah. And this is really embarrassing.
00:03:36
Speaker
I was back in the day. right. Back in the day, there was a show called The Apprentice. Sure. With Donald Trump. Of course. And I i love The Apprentice. It was like the number one show at the time. Yeah. I remember watching it. Right? it It was great. Like, I really enjoyed it. And one... And you know you remember the Donald was like in the middle. He had you know he had an advisor on his right and an advisor on his left. Yes. And the advisor on his left was a guy named George Ross.
00:04:04
Speaker
Okay. And he was like a real estate lawyer um for the Trump organization. And I... i really like i don't know I really liked George Ross, and I like bought his book or something like that, and I saw i saw that he was an adjunct professor at Brooklyn Law School.
00:04:22
Speaker
And after that, I was sold. I'm like, I'm going to Brooklyn Law School because of George Ross. And it is, in hindsight, it is the dumbest reason to pick a law school. Do not do that, ah folks at home. Do not do that, aspiring law students.
00:04:35
Speaker
um I never even got to take a course with him. He stopped. Yeah. You stopped being like an adjunct professor like before I got there. um ah So that's why I picked Brooklyn Law School. It's really funny. That's unbelievable. Isn't that great? Like the apprentice, George Ross.
00:04:52
Speaker
But yeah, so that's why I went to law school in
Navigating a Challenging Legal Market
00:04:55
Speaker
Brooklyn Law. Well, maybe you saw opportunity there or in ways that the rest of us did not at that point in time. ah Something. and you know We'll talk about this later on, but yeah I look back at my career. It's a really funny or my career path or my whatever it's really funny how like the dots, ah they make no sense. like in like In the moment, they make zero sense, but in hindsight, I see a lot of ah connection, um interestingly enough. Yeah.
00:05:23
Speaker
ah So you, yeah, you started and I think that's actually common for a lot of people too. So um it's good for people to hear that sort of story from from someone like you. um You started your career, you were doing litigation.
00:05:37
Speaker
Did you have any time idea at that time that you wanted to go in house?
Transition to Corporate Law and Career Breakthrough
00:05:42
Speaker
Yeah. So I, to be honest, at the time it was 2010, it was fresh off like a huge, huge recession. right um It was very difficult. Like I went to law school imagining the traditional path of going to, you know, a big firm, making partner, doing that whole grind.
00:06:00
Speaker
And I got zero traction after like, you know, to i had one i had one OCI interview um out of, you know, out of the summer. And I totally messed it up because it was before the days of Google Maps. I'm really dating myself here.
00:06:18
Speaker
but I had like my map quest. I'm going to this second round OCI interview, my one like shot at whatever, and i i have my map quest directions. and like You know how Bugs Bunny takes like the left turn, the wrong turn in Albuquerque? I took the wrong turn, and I got to the i got to the interview late, and and that was like i miss I truly missed like my chance at that law firm ah ah cycle or that path.
00:06:43
Speaker
So I i basically – had to be scrappy and i and I took what I can get. Not to say that like what I got or my opportunities weren't like – weren't great and and wonderful and competitive.
00:06:57
Speaker
um i just you know I just had to take – I had just had to be open to things, to paths that I didn't go to law school for. sure So at the time, I networked my way into a state court clerkship, right, in New Jersey.
00:07:12
Speaker
And my judge was in the matrimonial division, funny enough. So I did matrimonial. I learned matrimonial law, um the ins and outs of matrimonial law. Is mostly divorces and similar annulments?
00:07:23
Speaker
ah Divorce. I like to say baby mama drama, but there's none of that. actually in in the in the court. there's But divorce, alimony, child support, visitation, um there's all types of stuff for non-married people, right? It's not just that. So I got really good at that. And then from from the clerkship, you know, you make friends with the local attorneys who are peering for the judge. And i got I got set up with a great firm, um small firm doing pretty much everything focused on family law.
00:07:53
Speaker
But that was never like what I wanted to
Birth and Growth of In-House Connect
00:07:55
Speaker
do. I didn't, I'll tell you, on the, I would drive, i was living in Jersey City at the time and and the office was in, um it was in Morris County. It was in Morris County. And so I had like a long drive and every day i would pass, i had that like this most beautiful skyline of New York City, you know, right? Right.
00:08:13
Speaker
like You get the vista out the right window or something. Seriously, like my windshield was engulfed with this gorgeous view of this beautiful city, skyscrapers and all this possibility. And I was dying to work in that, you know, I was dying to work there. And it was so close, I could touch it, you know, I could touch it, but it was so far. I could never, couldn't figure out how to get across the river. You know, every day I would drive back and forth. And and finally, i just got to the point where I was very unhappy doing matrimonial law. It wasn't for me. I like when people are happy. I like to bring people together. And I got really, really lucky. There was a a job posting for an in-house legal role.
00:08:50
Speaker
um I had a friend from law school who was VP of legal there. And I um i owe her like my life, frankly, because she helped me get my foot in the door and I had to get the job, right? Sure. Yeah.
00:09:01
Speaker
Got the job and it was a commercial council position at a tech startup in new York City in those gleaming skyscrapers that i dreamed about. And that was my big break. And from there, um things really took off and and I got back on on the path. But there wasn't like – I knew ah in law school I was good at contracts. I was good at corporate law stuff. But yeah i didn't I wasn't like I want to be in-house. Like it kind of came together pretty organically I would say.
00:09:29
Speaker
i I like your story about being late to the interview. You reminded me, I haven't thought about this in years. One time, you know, everything goes wrong on the Metro in DC. I'm like 25 minutes late to an interview with at the time, Senator Feinstein's chief of staff to interview for a position there.
00:09:46
Speaker
Of course, he held like 20 minutes for me for the interview. So I'm five minutes past when I was supposed to have completed the interview by with him. At the time, that the sort of thing feels so important. And like it was that it was the door. and and and that And then, of course, right? Like I haven't thought about that in years until we sit down here and we talk about it. And yeah, i love i love that story. And i love how it wasn't even, you know, the company or it was just the possibility of being in New York that inspired you to take the next step.
00:10:21
Speaker
and I got to add to that story. Yeah. I like show up to to the interview. I'm late. And the partner was such a jerk about it. It was so mean. Like he was so, it was like their associate and like the partner and the guy is like, he couldn't be more clear that this is a waste of time. You know, you blew it by not getting here on time. And, um, and, and that was just so devastating, but a learning experience, sure you know, you gotta be on time.
00:10:49
Speaker
And you know, I'm a very, like, everything happens for a reason. Yeah. There's a lesson in everything. And, you know, there's no no bad results, just good lessons. So that was a wonderful lesson. But I really laugh that the guy was so mean. He was so mean. And i just I caught up with somebody from his firm. And I'm like, is this person still here? They're like, yeah. And I'm like, I told them the story. They're cracking up. um But I digress.
Impact of COVID-19 and Strategic Pivot
00:11:12
Speaker
Everybody should be nice. You know, everybody runs late and you should be nice no matter what.
00:11:16
Speaker
Well, and clearly you recover, you know, from being... It all worked out. Exactly. I don't know if there are many law school students who listen to these, but if they are, they should they should listen to this one in particular. um When you went in-house, I mean, it sounds like you didn't have much in the way of expectations, but was it what you expected?
00:11:37
Speaker
it was It was wonderful, to be honest, going in-house. I loved it. i So I got to join this tech startup ah full of like energy and excitement and you know new people and camaraderie in a way that I never experienced before. like i was a regular, you know, attorney the past. I had clients. I had cases. i appeared in front of judges. dealt with adversaries.
00:12:01
Speaker
i loved my colleagues, but like it wasn't the same. You know, you're off doing your cases. They're doing their cases and and so on. Um, I loved, I loved being a part of this, uh, of, of being part of that, um, company.
00:12:14
Speaker
It was, it was just great. Um, I didn't, I also was like, i guess we call that imposter syndrome right now. I didn't, I didn't have any experience. I never redlined a contract before in my life, even, you know, when I practiced, um, but I didn't, i really was like very green and the person who helped get my foot in the door, you know, was a, was a fantastic mentor and trained me
Balancing Full-Time Work and In-House Connect
00:12:40
Speaker
beautifully and wonderfully.
00:12:41
Speaker
And it was just, it was a wonderful, wonderful experience. And I'm very fond of those, of that first job. So where does In-House Connect get started? And how does that fit into the picture?
00:12:55
Speaker
So when i when I was doing matrimonial law, there was a big emphasis on networking because it's a small world in the matrimonial bars, right? All across the country, whatever wherever state. you are, the matrimonial bar, everybody knows each other.
00:13:06
Speaker
Everybody knows the judges and the judges know you. And I knew that going into a new career, you know, as an in-house lawyer, i knew nothing. I was really nervous that I was going to fail at this job and I needed some like support, some friends, some, you know, I needed to have that network in place before I needed it.
00:13:27
Speaker
So I was super motivated to, um, to, to network and to go out and put myself out there. um, And you're friendly guy. I'm a friendly guy. I i think I've become friendlier over time, frankly. But um I was committed to putting myself out there. i was really I was really nervous that I had nothing to fall back on. That's truly like why I started to to network and do and do my thing.
00:13:51
Speaker
So yeah there's the there's the ACC. There are groups out there, what not as many as there are now, and that's ah whole that's a podcast episode in and of itself. I'd love to talk about that. But um the there was the ACC, and to be honest, at the time, I couldn't afford the annual membership. like I just didn't. I couldn't i couldn't do it.
00:14:11
Speaker
um And I found a meetup group. It was called the New York In-House Council
Deciding to Focus on In-House Connect
00:14:17
Speaker
Meetup Group. Right. Like on meetup. Meetup.com. Yeah. Truly on meetup. Like I Googled it and it came up. It was New York in-house council meetup group. I thought it was like ah but I thought was like, you know, one of these zombie groups that, you know, that's just like floating out there that that's inactive. But I clicked and sure enough, it was active. It had active meetings and it wasn't doing anything revolutionary. It was organizing Sealy panels. you know, at different law firms. People would so sign up, they would attend, and then there would be networking afterwards.
00:14:48
Speaker
And I loved it. And and and the group organizer um screened everybody. He made sure that you are in-house. um So, you know, I was in-house, I got in, i started to attend these events, and I loved it. I really, really enjoyed it.
00:15:02
Speaker
And that's when i that's when I first, like, got into networking. that that meetup That meetup group would eventually become in-house connect. like We rebranded it into house connect. but Okay, tell us tell us the backstory on that. right like How did that actually play out? Because I ah feel like this is such... People think people think that...
00:15:24
Speaker
Founder stories are you had this light bulb moment in the shower or on your run one day and then you just decided that you were gonna you know There was this huge inflection point and you're gonna do it and you raised a bunch of money and now it's and in my experience at least the founders that I've had on this You know podcast before folks like you that's not often the case.
00:15:47
Speaker
It's much more like what you're describing I think I had one light bulb moment. So I bought the light bulb pack with one in it, not multiple, unfortunately. So i so if the first like year I was attending these meetups, yeah right?
00:16:02
Speaker
Here's the here's like a ah tip. If you want to make friends and network, you have to do it consistently. And if you show up to the same like meeting, whatever it is, right, um you will build a connection and a rapport with people. And that's when things get good. If you go once in a while, you're not going to really make an impact or a presence. sure So I started to attend every every month like I was a regular.
00:16:25
Speaker
And I got to know the group organizer. His name was Brian Greenberg. Wonderful man. um A man I love very, very much. um And I told him like but maybe six months after attending, I told him like, look, I love what you're doing. I want to help you run this group. And I think I can help you organize events and do other stuff. Like there's so much more you can do with this, with this like concept.
00:16:47
Speaker
So he, and it's funny, he didn't like say, yes, you're hired. Like, you know, on the spot, I think he waited, like he maybe had, i think he was doing, he was like running the group with somebody else. And then that person ended up ah relocating. so he's like So, a year later, a year later, he comes and he's like, hey, if you're still interested, there's an ah you know i would love to work with you. I think you'd be great.
Future Vision and Community Support
00:17:07
Speaker
And that's when that's when um I started to get more involved. And this was 2016. I'm pretty sure because I had just gotten... so i My first role in-house was with the tech startup. And then I knew things were... you know Tech startups are crazy.
00:17:23
Speaker
and And that was a crazy tech startup. And I knew, you know, I wasn't feeling so secure about the future of the of the company, unfortunately. And i i i I sought greener pastures or so I thought. yeah um And I got a great, great job as a commercial attorney with Saks Fifth Avenue. Yeah.
00:17:43
Speaker
And I got to enjoy their fantastic employee discount. And and i really wish now that I'm married that I still had it. um But um it was a wonderful, wonderful experience. So when I joined Saks, that ah just happens to be when I started to co-run the group with Brian.
00:18:01
Speaker
So then the next several years, i'm like two or three years later, yeah I'm continuing to run these events. where We're not making any money for record. all in New York at the time. All in New York, all in person. We added like, we did a few mixers, kind of like well you know what we do now, um but only in New York. um It was a lot more primitive, I think, from what we... what we do now um i have and i have a have a great story um of our i think our second mixer we had this big mixer planned it was supposed to be on the rooftop in like soho this cool place in soho rooftop it was december but they had the i'm like you know you have uh heat lamps and and it would be covered and everything would be great it would be awesome don't worry so i get there and i see um firemen coming up and down the i so Up and down the thing. I see like the fire truck. I'm like, this cannot and not be good. And I see like the event planner that we've been working with and they're all frazzled. They're all nervous.
00:18:59
Speaker
And like, what's going on? He's like, the neighbors complained. We can't do it on the roof. We're going to put you in the basement. And I'm like... okay okay you know i was very zen i'm like yeah roll the punches you know i i had a lot of uh i don't know i was just very calm about it you drank your green tea that day serious brian is like freaking out i'm like no no it'll be fine don't worry and we had a great event it was awesome nobody even mentioned the the rooftop or the big yeah it was really really funny and the only money we ever made was the refund we got from the venue because It was supposed to be on the roof, but we got this move to the basement and like I harassed them into giving us some money back. So whatever we got back was the only money we ever made from this whole endeavor.
00:19:45
Speaker
So when did it start to grow then? And was that deliberate to say, hey, we're going to do some stuff virtually or maybe people outside of the New York metropolitan area might be interested in this?
00:19:59
Speaker
Like how did how did the growth story happen? So there was I would say there was like two steps. First, like pre-COVID, there was a pre-COVID step where I spoke to Brian and I'm like, look,
00:20:12
Speaker
we gotta rebrand. We're doing this great thing, but you know we can't be the New York in-house counsel meetup group. That's not, you know what mean? We need something a little bit more oomph, and he came up with the ah with the title or with the name In-House Connect. He's a great marketing guy.
00:20:29
Speaker
I really, really miss him, and I'll talk about that. but um So I said, look, let's rebrand as In-House Connect, and let's go on LinkedIn. There's a lot more in-house lawyers on LinkedIn than there are on Meetup. You know, um you're kind of early to LinkedIn, actually. Right. I mean, yeah this is what 20 is in 2017, 20, I think 2018, maybe something like that. I could totally be wrong, but I yeah think it's around then. And I said, let's rebrand. Let's throw a summer mixer um and a rooftop this time. And we're not going to get kicked out. And we did. And it was and it was awesome. So like that was a big step. And then.
00:21:06
Speaker
I also um had this idea to basically cold connect with in-house lawyers in New York. Like, hey, ah you know you look like a good fit for in-house connect.
00:21:16
Speaker
ah We do free CLEs and social events in New York City for in-house counsel to learn more. And I personally would cold connect with people. And that's how we grew like in the beginning. And it worked beautifully. like We suddenly started to see new faces at our at our events and and stuff like that. So that was a big, big turning point.
00:21:36
Speaker
And then – and I'm still like scratching my head. How do I make money? How do we expand? How do we grow? It was – I thought about it a lot and I didn't see any real way of doing it. And it was hard to drum up revenue frankly. Yeah.
00:21:52
Speaker
drum up revenue frankly um in this state because we're not we're not like big enough to really like command a special presence. sure um And you know it's more like the firms are doing us a favor by catering to us. So it's hard to hard to make money like that. So the the next big inflection point was COVID.
00:22:12
Speaker
When COVID hit, I saw – I had i had that my – I think my one light bulb moment um was what if we took what we're doing in person, put it online.
00:22:24
Speaker
um But because it's – because I have a lot more flexibility on the speakers um and it's much easier for people to join, what if we made must-see
00:22:35
Speaker
webinars Sure. Like what if the webinars were so good, you know, that I, that it cannot be ignored that in-house law, in-house, I had a fun, I was like laughing about this. Like what if in-house lawyers are talking about our webinars?
00:22:47
Speaker
Like they talk about the Superbowl, like super seriously everybody talks about you right it's funny i'm like i was laughing i had such a smile on my face i remember i was home like locked down and i'm like this is a great idea and that was my gold star that was my guiding principle frankly um and that's what like i set out to do and i'm like this is what i want to do this will you know if i if we if i can execute we'll get a big enough audience and then opportunities will present itself and so at that point I kind of reached out to Brian and i wanted to move forward and he was kind of hesitant. And we basically, you know, I thought, i think like it was a good opportunity for me to take over. And, you know, he's little bit older than me, more advanced in his career and his life. And he better for me to just start and run with this concept. And that's what ended up happening. So from then I took i had hundred percent control of IHC and charted a new path into uncharted territory.
00:23:45
Speaker
Yeah, this is great. One of the things that's been interesting to me about IHC, and I can see it sort of in the growth of the the fact that it really took off with ah LinkedIn, with a lot of these virtual events, with the webinars, is that the are The very open approach that you take or what I would describe as a big tent approach.
00:24:07
Speaker
um I'm curious if that was intentional. I'm also just curious if there were any if there are any sort of like guiding principles that you have as you think about growing in-house connect.
00:24:18
Speaker
Maybe you didn't have those in, you know, 2017, but I'm sure you do today. Yeah. yeah it's ah It's a great question. um I'm smiling at the big tent you know ah phrase.
00:24:29
Speaker
i my my initial My thought was the meetup group itself was free. right And so just keep this free. like i was it At the time, I wasn't thinking more than that. As I started to do more and more, um I realized that keeping it open and easy, like make it easy for people to access, a lot of people can't navigate Zoom. you know sure and a lot like I didn't want to create any – I didn't want to have any friction in our in our process. So um I really see it frankly as a strategic advantage because there's a lot you know there's a lot of groups out there um that are membership-based and they do great stuff.
00:25:08
Speaker
they're They're excellent. But I can't attend their events. And maybe you can if you remember, but I don't know. like i I see it now as such a blessing that we kept it open and we kept it um and we kept it open and easy for people to to attend. So I think at the time i was just staying true to taking the virtual, taking the in-person concept and putting it online. um But certainly...
00:25:31
Speaker
i had I'm sure I had like numerous chances to make it membership only. I love – I don't like – I love that we're open and that anybody can attend our events practically. and I aim to to keep it that way.
00:25:44
Speaker
Who knows what the future holds? We'll we'll talk about it. yeah But I really love that um placement in the market, so to speak. um I love it from i love from a business standpoint.
00:25:56
Speaker
I love it from a community standpoint. Yes. the the the once you get upon ah Once you get above a certain point of um audience on a webinar, the conversation like explodes.
00:26:08
Speaker
Yeah. And it's wonderful. I love it. I love to see it. The people enjoy it um and it's a key feature of in-house connect and it kind of i certainly wasn't my, you know, wasn't my, I didn't have a crystal ball. I only had that one light bulb, unfortunately, but um I'm thrilled that we kept with it and, and, and things are the way they are today.
00:26:31
Speaker
Any other principles that you think about as you think about growing in-house connect or guiding you? Yeah. i I mean, number number one is warmth and positivity.
00:26:43
Speaker
I like that. um When i was when i was doing the in-person meetups, um I felt very strongly that I was the host. Me and Brian were hosts, right? Yeah.
00:26:53
Speaker
and people coming right you had regulars who would come and they felt comfortable because they're regulars but the marginal first the marginal person who is attending for the first time always like was looking out for them and like i knew the faces i knew the regulars and i knew the movies and so i always looked out for people who were alone or who yeah who were like by themselves i always made sure to talk to them to introduce them to make them feel welcome like that 100 was intentional Like 100% was intentional. And I wanted to somehow bring that energy and that warmth to the webinars.
00:27:30
Speaker
It's a funny thing, like a warm webinar, yeah you know, warm webinar. But I wanted, that's what I wanted. That's what I wanted to establish. and And it's, I didn't go to school for webinars. Nobody like really taught me. how to do any of this and it just worked out like really, really nicely. So warmth, warmth and positivity. Like it's a warm environment. It's a positive environment.
00:27:53
Speaker
um Warmth, positivity, excitement. Like I want people who are excited and inspired by their careers and curious. Like, yeah you know, I'll talk about this later on, I'm sure, but i feel like a lot of people kind of take their careers for granted and they don't,
00:28:10
Speaker
they yeah they worked so hard in law school, maybe they worked hard in private practice, they got this job, you know, they're in house or whatever, wherever they are in their careers. i I feel like this is your life. This is what you're going to spend the vast majority of your time on this earth doing. yeah Make the most of it, be the best, you know, be cutting edge, be enthusiastic and excited.
00:28:32
Speaker
And that's the other thing like I want to bring and I want to inspire people. Like truly must see CLE, like come check out the CLE. You will get better at redlining. You'll get, you'll know what's going on in employment law. You'll know what's going on with executive orders in ai and AI contracts and, you know, there's a whole host of things. And I, and I feel like that's lacking in the current CLE landscape. There's none of that energy or excitement.
00:28:59
Speaker
For sure. It's not, I mean, Oftentimes you have great law firm partners who are coming on because I've listened to some of these CLEs, but it's not um not your typical law firm CLE, which is, oh, this new reg came out and so we got to get on and you know do an hour webinar on and it's just going to be focused on this and it's going to be very – I feel like – you encourage the guests or you encourage the panels to bring a lot more energy than than you typically see out there in CLE content.
00:29:32
Speaker
We have a pre-call usually for every webinar um because I want, obviously I want them to be, I want my speakers to be prepared. I feel like it's not every, sometimes we have, I mean, our average is 400 attendees per webinar. It's a lot, it's lot of people in the format, the way we you know use our our Zoom format, Like it's a lot more um public and I guess transparent, you could say. So I want them to be prepared, but I also, you know, I also want to coach them up.
00:29:59
Speaker
I want them to understand like you can, do don't check your personality at the door. That's what got you. You know, that's what we want. and We want that personality. So definitely it's something I'm intentional about and i kind of help my speakers ah bring it out.
00:30:15
Speaker
I want to ask you in a second about when you went all in on in-house connect. But before we get there, you know, something that I don't think many people know about you or have noticed on your resume or is you spent a period of time in there when you were getting started with in-house connect, let's say doing like fractional work or working through Axiom.
00:30:38
Speaker
um and And the reason I bring that up is I'm curious how that informed your sort of approach to community or if that informed your approach to community at all because i guess I think it's easier to feel more secure when you've got like one full-time job and you know who your boss is and maybe it's for some big it's for Saks Fifth Avenue and everybody knows what that is right yeah talk to us a little bit about that you know I i love that you that you're asking me this question I love the research Tyler does his research for future guests.
00:31:13
Speaker
um So it's ah it's a great question. i wasn't a fractional GC. okay I basically, I actually got laid off from Saks Fifth Avenue. And that was a that was a deeply transformational event for me. And and that's because I really, you know going from the going from matrimonial to this tech startup, then to a company like Saks,
00:31:37
Speaker
I really was motivated to work hard, to do my best. I wanted to be a great corporate you know employee. And I really was into it. And at the end of the day, Saks wasn't doing well, right? there was They had a huge, huge round of layoffs.
00:31:52
Speaker
And when that happened, I didn't see it coming. I was a deer with a capital D. Yeah. I, you know, the HR ambush, don't know if you're familiar with that, but totally... I've been through a layoff too, and i was I like to be very open about that because I think it is actually, well, it was a very formative experience.
00:32:12
Speaker
I did not like it, but it was a very transformational experience too. I wouldn't be sitting here without that. So I am familiar with the like, you know, HR comes on and you're like, oh... Well, we shouldn't swear on the podcast, but like, oh boy, this is not going to be a good conversation. I'll tell you, I just because it was so like memorable for me, I got a I got a like random meeting invite from like the GC for like random office.
00:32:41
Speaker
And I'm like, okay, this must be a top secret meeting of some kind, you know? so I go and it's like a clear glass yeah office and I see him and I see the HR and I'm like, oh, I had my my manil you know i my my notepad to take notes. Anyways.
00:32:57
Speaker
It was super, super transformational. Yeah. Because it really, i hate to say it, like it removed my, yeah um my night how do I say? na and My naivete? Naivete. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I really felt like I felt like i i became an adult after that after that, after what happened. you know I realized that like, look...
00:33:20
Speaker
You have to put yourself first. i like ah i was I'm just super shaped. like i really I felt like I gave it all for this company. yeah And so i had to from then on, I was like, look, I'm protecting myself. I put myself first.
00:33:33
Speaker
I had some like random business ideas that I wanted to do and I didn't because i felt like it might conflict. That was like out the window. And that was super, super, super transformational for me.
00:33:44
Speaker
So I forget i forget the... so oh Well, so then you go to Axiom and... So I signed up with Axiom. and And my Axiom experience was really interesting, not from the community building perspective, but...
00:33:58
Speaker
from the opportunity I had to work at different law, ah like different legal departments. Right. you work for Axiom or ALSP and um you get, let's say you have like a three or four month engagement and you have a few of those in a row. Right.
00:34:14
Speaker
you get to you know You get to work with a lot of people and a lot of different companies in a short period of time. And that was a super eye-opening experience. Like I went from – the tech startup had a culture.
00:34:25
Speaker
Saks had a culture. I got to work at Casper Mattress with – you probably know – Was it Jonathan? Jonathan Trutman. Yeah. He's awesome. He just got a new job, I think, today. Yeah. yeah He did. I i was like, good to way to go, Jonathan. I hope to see him ah next week at the Miami IHC Mixer. love So, i I got to work with him. I got to work with others who were fantastic. And I loved being – I loved working at the casper ah Casper mattress at that time. It was awesome. Yeah. So, I got – so, that was great.
00:34:56
Speaker
Then I went and I worked for Salesforce. Yeah. um And that was really, really interesting. i It wasn't like what I expected. um It was a lot more regimented. i never had a playbook before. had a playbook now.
00:35:08
Speaker
um And that was super interesting. And also comparing and contrasting that culture. The Salesforce culture is very strong. They call their workforce an ohana, right? It's like you're a community or a family is what it what it means.
00:35:24
Speaker
And I never... hawaiian Exactly, exactly. And I'd never experienced that before. And then when I went from there to Altice, which is Optimum Cable, um, I also you know noticed the kind the contrast in cultures in expectations and and so on. It was super, super, super eye-opening.
00:35:41
Speaker
So like that informed content and what in-house counsel really need you know and like what in-house counsel are going through. So I got to see a lot of different ah legal departments and a lot of different roles and people and how they like you know manage their responsibilities.
00:35:58
Speaker
That's what it was super eye-opening for me. Not necessarily the the community... yeah angle but still very very important nonetheless super interesting knowledge accrues and you can accrue a lot if you're shifting around and working and so many different places like that i think it's a it's i think it's a tremendous opportunity um i also think industry knowledge is one of like my this is like one of my like i guess my second light bulb is the industry knowledge like you're What separates in-house lawyers from each other, besides for like the usual experience and so on, is industry knowledge.
00:36:34
Speaker
So if you work if you do you know an ALSP stint for three months in one industry and then another and then another, that is valuable expertise that you have accrued. and it's For me, it was extremely valuable and and and rewarding, frankly.
00:36:50
Speaker
So, okay, we'll skip ahead then. When did you decide to go all in on In-House Connect? I have a crazy story about that. Please. Maybe it's not so crazy, but crazy to me. We like crazy stories. So, all right, 2022, COVID, it was kind of a proof of proof of concept time. And I saw a lot of, you know, at the end of the year, I'm looking at the numbers and i'm like, wow, like this is a business. This is truly a business.
00:37:15
Speaker
And there's so much potential. And at the same time, you know, I'm working at Altice. I loved my job at Altice. I was there for this for four years, I think, at this point. As long as I've ever been anywhere.
00:37:26
Speaker
So, which was wonderful, frankly, because I kept a year here at the tech startup, a year and a half at Saks. Then I had the Axiom-like stint. So, to just make a home really, really nice. When 2023 rolls around,
00:37:39
Speaker
when twenty twenty three rolls around I started to think heavily about you know doing this full time. And i had a lot of confidence in In-House Connect as like a business based on the partners and their reactions and their appreciation. like i They gave me strength, like frankly. like I wasn't so sure like what would be the future of In-House Connect. but Were they paying you at this point?
00:38:07
Speaker
It's hard to get... Get law firms to part with their money. You know That's when you know you have a good business. it's i Maybe I'll save that for the pet peeve part, but um it was very hard. I'll tell you, um Jessica Wynn. Sure. Jessica Wynn and at the time Lexion. was like they they were my first like sponsor. I mean, I had like other, I had like one or two law firms ah before them, but like when they signed on and like, you know, supported us, that enabled me to take the next level. Not like quit my job. That was yeah still early on, but that was like a huge boost.
00:38:44
Speaker
um And I really owe her a lot of ah credit for helping us get over that hump. Yeah. But 2023 rolls around. i'm I'm loving in-house connect. It's my heart. It's my soul. I'm doing it at all my free time. And then some, and you know, things are annoying at me. Like I don't, the the side, the side hustle culture, right. It was a real, was, it was, it's much more, it was a much more like thing back, back a year, or whatever, two years ago right. Like when people were remote, you know, people had multiple jobs. And so I was never like that. I, in my heart, I felt like Altice hired me.
00:39:19
Speaker
They hired all of me, a hundred percent of me. And if I can't give them ah hundred percent, like that's a problem. And, you know I kept like going on and on. um like And then and then what what what happened was Legal Week.
00:39:33
Speaker
So Legal Week was in New York City. It was in March. And i that was like the first legal tech conference I attended where my goal was to promote in-house connect.
00:39:44
Speaker
So i so i bought my I bought a ticket, i Shy from In-House Connect, CEO is my like my title. And I go and I'm like trying to talk to these people at the booths and like they want nothing to do with me. you know They want real business, not like you know trying to give me business. But I went around and I introduced myself as Shy from In-House Connect.
00:40:05
Speaker
And, you know, i look people not shy from in-house connect, shake their hand and everything. And I went back home and I flipped open my laptop to be shy from Altice.
00:40:16
Speaker
And I felt like I was not shy from Altice anymore. Like, I'm like, I'm not this person. I am not like, you know, I'm not this person. So, i I was like very, very wobbly.
00:40:27
Speaker
Then the next day, next day, we'll talk about this later on Sorry, I keep preempting that's the questions. um it teasers for people to continue to listen. Yes, yes. Stick around. You'll you'll learn more. um i i I go to services, right? Jewish, I pray at synagogue every day, every morning. That's how I start my day.
00:40:48
Speaker
And my um my rabbi, after services, he gives a class, usually talks about the weekly Bible portion, right? So you know we learn, we get inspiration, we learn things to do, what not to do, and so on.
00:41:01
Speaker
And we talk about holidays, Jewish holidays, and Passover was like coming up, right? um And another thing is we celebrate the um the new moon, right? New moon. We call it Rosh Chodesh. It's the first of the month. Okay. It's like a special thing in in Judaism. Okay.
00:41:20
Speaker
And his class, I remember it so clearly, he was saying that each month has a special power, right? And the month that we were, that it was Rosh Chodesh Nisan, which is the first of the month of Nisan, and that is the um that is the month of Passover, right?
00:41:38
Speaker
And the Jews got out of Egypt. Right. And he was saying that the power of the month is the power to break free of bondage, to break out of your chains. And he said the first of the month is when that power is the most strongest.
00:41:52
Speaker
And I'm like, listen to this. I'm like, okay. Like I needed a sign. I'm like, when i should i i should when should I do this? when You know, how should I do it? And I'm ah i'm hearing them my my rabbi tell me this. And I'm like,
00:42:02
Speaker
I got to do this. You got to go for it. I got to go for it. So I also had a buddy, Ariel, who was like peppering me, like when you're to quit, when you're gonna quit, when you're going quit. He had a big influence on this decision too. But once I heard that, I'm like, it's the first the it's the first of the month, you know, special power, break free of bondage.
00:42:20
Speaker
I'm going to break free of this, of my, I i loved my job, but yeah it was time to to set the wheels in motion. That's fantastic. That's a great story so i tapped into the zodiac it was the scariest thing i ever did like bothering my boss out of nowhere like you know it's pretty quiet and calm for years and years and i'm like hey can we talk and he's like well what's going on and like i told him How did that go?
00:42:47
Speaker
I'm always in. I don't ask this that often, but I should ask it more because it's ah well, I think it's important to quit a job. Well, yeah, as as both of us maybe have seen with layoffs before, companies don't always part with you in the best of ways or as well as they I think that they should or they can. Right. As well as is within their power to do, I guess, is what I would say. Yeah.
00:43:11
Speaker
But I mean, it's also hard because people don't have a ton of experience quitting usually when they do it for the first or the second time. And so it wasn't so bad. so I, you know, I think I was like, fear like, I'm like, what, how is this going to go? What am I going to say? And I, and I, and I, am and what I came up with, and this gave me like the calmness to proceed.
00:43:31
Speaker
I basically said like, look, I'm going to say that. that And this is how it went. I said, like look, i i've been you know I have this group on the side, in-house connect.
00:43:42
Speaker
um I want to take it more seriously and I want to just do it 100% of the time. yeah um I know like it was a sensitive time because i did data privacy and sure the CPRA at the time was going to go into effect in July of that year.
00:43:59
Speaker
Or so they said. Yeah. and Yes. Or so they said. Exactly. Everything changes with California. But it was but it was we were like changing the privacy policies and doing all this stuff. and And I'm like, look, I know this is out of nowhere. This is out of the blue.
00:44:15
Speaker
But please, i'm I'm going to stay here and work as long as until you find a replacement. Once you find a replacement... i'm I'm off and we'll leave as friends. And I felt like that was good. You know, like I'll give him as much notice as the, you know, you find somebody you like, you hire them and I'll go. And that's what ended up happening. I ended up leaving in August and, um, yeah, and it was great.
00:44:39
Speaker
They, they replaced me with two people, not just one, I must say. um but, uh, it was, it was great. And, uh, and we left as friends. ah Before we turn to your faith, which I really do want to talk about with you, I'm curious if there was anybody who you felt like really supported you through this journey of going all in on on in-house connect. If there were any people in your life who were who were essential to that, yeah to your ability to to make that leap. Yeah. Yeah. I. um It's funny. i I knew my wife would be nervous.
00:45:12
Speaker
knew my in-laws would be nervous, frankly. I'm not even worried about my parents um because you know I know they trust me 100%, but my in-laws. So like before I did it, I kept saying like I kind of like prepared them.
00:45:25
Speaker
Yeah. Mentally, like, look, i'm I'm going to do this at some point. i don't know when, but but so like I got them ready. My wife, you know, I got her mentally ready as well. um So, you know, I knew I had their blessing and I just and I just went ahead and did it. But.
00:45:40
Speaker
It's funny. i don't I don't have like a direct mentor. I have like – I take inspiration from lots of people and I, you know, get advice all the time on lots of different things. But nothing – nobody is like, okay, you should do this. You should do that.
00:45:55
Speaker
That's fine. Not everybody needs – yeah. ah and And as let's talk about – One of the things that I think does guide you and that is really important to you is your faith. And I've noticed this in the sense of you setting, i don't know if I call them boundaries, because I don't know if they're necessarily boundaries, but it's more like this is a priority for me. And so I'm not going to be available like on this day of this week or at this time or...
00:46:21
Speaker
I can't do that because I have to catch this flight home because I need to be home to be with my family. Right. lot of people won't won't do that or they won't they won't take it to that extent. So I don't know. Just tell us a little bit about it and we'll see where this goes. I was interested that you noticed that. Yeah. When did you notice?
00:46:37
Speaker
I don't know. I think. I think one time I did. Maybe I asked to reschedule a call for a certain day or I said, you know, oh, could we do the event this week? And you said, no, we can't do the event that week because I need to be in New York for this.
00:46:54
Speaker
I don't remember what the event was or or what the what the what the religious holiday was at the time. right But I noticed that. and And I think it takes a certain level of courage, actually. yeah Right.
00:47:05
Speaker
to To be willing to sort of draw that line. I wasn't so – so like I said before, I'm Jewish. I'm observant. I observe the Sabbath. I observe the the holidays. um and and And it's wonderful. But I wasn't always this way. It's it's really funny. um In Saks, I sat next to a lovely young lady – who um was observant, right? I wasn't observant at the time, but she was.
00:47:32
Speaker
And i was she sat right next to me and I would see her leave early, right? On Fridays. I'm still working. She's leaving early because she had the courage to insist on, you know, or to to set that boundary, right? Mm-hmm.
00:47:47
Speaker
And I felt like so stupid. i I remember like walking out and I'm like still here. You know what mean? Like I'm still working. And i that was such a regret of mine, frankly. So when I went to the next, like what didn't apply really to the axiom like roles, but sure but when I joined Altice, I said, you know, front. It was a very... It was a very tough, I wouldn't say tough, but for me, it was difficult. And I know a lot of people struggle with this because the the high holidays are like crunched in September and October.
00:48:17
Speaker
And it's like Monday, Tuesday, I'm out. And then the next Monday, Tuesday, I'm out. And then I'm there, but the Wednesday I'm out. And then Monday, Tuesday again, and Monday, Tuesday again. And then I'm not and then i'm working for like six months straight you know with no breaks. But right to go in there and to to to make that request extremely, extremely hard. and I'm very, very fortunate that my boss, ah Bill Heberer from Maltese, was excellent, super understanding, never gave me a hard time about it.
00:48:46
Speaker
And really, I think you knowever whatever whoever the people out there, if they're listening, if they are in the similar shoes, take your time. Take your holidays, whatever they are. Like, it doesn't matter.
00:48:57
Speaker
Like, some things come before work. And again, of all of that experience, when I got laid off, I was like, I'm not putting the company first anymore. it's time to to carve that out.
00:49:10
Speaker
These days... right like i get to say I have a lot more say over when things happen. um and and and In fact, um I actually print out the the yearly schedule. like We have get a calendar with the dates and the times and everything.
00:49:26
Speaker
and so like I base off my webinar schedule, my in-person event schedule off of that calendar. and i see like because it's happened in the past where I didn't use the calendar and we had ah there was a holiday and I booked a webinar on and I had to move everything around.
00:49:41
Speaker
So I put that first. And I think that to be, to, to lead a healthy, balanced life, you have to put, you know, you have to prioritize things. Work will be there. Like I will always be there. We'll always, we'll always be there. Exactly. Yeah. But those, you know, you miss a holiday, you can't get it back.
00:49:58
Speaker
You know, you gotta put that stuff first. So it's, it's fine. i'm I'm smiling that you, that you noticed. Yeah. um And and I appreciate the opportunity to, to talk more about it.
00:50:09
Speaker
Yeah. Where do you hope to take in-house connect over the next couple of years? Like what's, what's next for you and IHC? It's a, it's a great question. And I, I, again, I wish I had a better answer. You know, I wish so many people. You're still figuring it out. That's okay. and mean, Some, I, I like to keep things flexible and I like to adapt.
00:50:32
Speaker
I like to keep it, you know, like water, you know like I like to be flexible, like to adapt. I know somebody smarter than me, you know, said that before, but I, I like to keep it flexible and adapt. Um, I don't have a, I don't necessarily have like a defined end goal. I would say there's definitely things that I want to do and that I'm, you know, grinding towards. So, and I'm happy to talk about that. I mean, first and foremost, I want the experience to be like excellent.
00:51:01
Speaker
I want everybody who tunes into webinar to love it. I want their experience on the website to be great. I want it them to get their CLEs fast. And, you know, there's so much to do with there. And I'm not there yet. My website, I need to, you know, start over. We've outgrown the website. It crashes a lot.
00:51:18
Speaker
All of just recently. And that's a whole nother thing. There's a lot of improvements to be made there. Ultimately, i want to I want to get to the point where every in-house lawyer knows In-House Connect exists and knows that if they want to feel connected, if they want to learn more, if they want to participate in great mixers, if they want to be inspired from their career,
00:51:42
Speaker
Join in-house connect. It's free. It's easy. It's perfect for what you're going through right now. Like that, that's my ultimate goal. I, you know, we're at 50,000 subscribers. I want to get to 100,000. Do you have a little countdown clock in your ad?
00:51:58
Speaker
I, you know what, i have i have I have like an email, my MailChimp, you know, tells me how many we have and I'm like, oh, today was a good day. And I'm like, oh, today was a bad, you know? It's kind of like ah homeostasis a little bit. it's It's really hard. It's really hard to grow, um especially, you know, we're very, very big and we do a lot of stuff and whatever.
00:52:20
Speaker
It's extremely, extremely hard to grow. So I'm in it i'm in it for the long, long time, long game. i I love being an entrepreneur. I love being in charge. I think, frankly, as I'm coming to to discover, I love being in charge and I love, you know, just being a part of this conversation. You go with sell your company, you get a boatload of money.
00:52:41
Speaker
my wife you know My wife will spend it before I get to you know see it. but But in all seriousness, you sell the company and you're out of the conversation. and i like I like being in a part of the conversation. so i'm not I'm not looking to to you know sell anytime soon. i want to grow it.
00:52:59
Speaker
um And ultimately, i guess, to really answer your question, besides for getting to 100,000 subscribers, yeah which who knows? I don't know if I'll ever get there, frankly, but fingers crossed.
00:53:11
Speaker
I want to do conferences. yeah I think conferences, um i think there's an opportunity um for for more conferences. yeah um The way we do our webinars is special. The way we do our mixers is special. i want to um do what I want to do conferences that are special, that are excellent.
00:53:28
Speaker
um I've never done a conference before, so i kind of so I'm hesitant. I'm hesitant to add that to my plate, frankly. Because I got a lot going on. um But that's the next thing I want to i want to tackle.
00:53:41
Speaker
um We've got our Spot Draft Summit next week yeah as we're recording this. And conferences are big. But you can do it. I have no i have no doubt. I think that there's a lot you know it's fine I really enjoyed the um the episode with Kevin and Matt. yeah right Kevin Cohn and Matt from Priori.
00:54:00
Speaker
um and and Kevin said something interested he said something interesting. He said that there's too many conferences. but I think he's talking about legal ops conferences. There are a lot of legal ops conferences. Yes. I don't think that there is any great in-house conferences, frankly.
00:54:18
Speaker
not i mean not Not the way that I want to that i want to do it. I mean, i'm I'm biased. I like BL suite ones, but that is a different approach than than your approach.
00:54:29
Speaker
And I've never been to ACC. I can't ah can't speak to that. Yeah, there's there's a lot of... There's been a profusion of legal ops communities. And I think his point about seeing a little bit of consolidation there is is a good one.
00:54:42
Speaker
I could see, I've never been to legal week, I could see an in-house connect conference in New York doing very well though. Yeah, I agree. We have, you know, these mixers are illuminating for me because a lot of what I constantly hear is, oh, I've seen your face a hundred times. Yeah.
00:55:00
Speaker
I'm not sure what to say. Like I kind of had like this weird, like, oh, you know, I could see you too. you know My Zoom host capabilities, but that weirds people out. So I'm not going to do that anymore. Um, but definitely we have a lot of fans yeah and I want to bring them together.
00:55:15
Speaker
And I also want to create a memorable experience. I like the mixers are fantastic, but they're like, you know, one night, they're three hours. Let's do something more substantial. Um, so I'm definitely, definitely game and, uh, we'll see.
00:55:29
Speaker
We'll see. If folks want to get connected, is LinkedIn the right place to go? is the old website that may be a new version of the website soon. They're like, where should people go if they want to get connected and learn more?
00:55:43
Speaker
Go to in-house connect.org, uh, check out our upcoming events. I would say that's like the best way yeah to connect and to get involved. And certainly if you want to reach out to me, just connect with me on LinkedIn, love LinkedIn.
00:55:54
Speaker
And then, you know, it is what you make it right. So, you know, you tune into our events, participate in the chat, you make some friends, attend the mixer, right? and Attend the conference, who knows? yeah ah There's other things I want to do blogs and interviews and so on. There's a lot lot more we can we can take with it. So I would say start with our webinars and and we'll go from there.
00:56:18
Speaker
All right. As we start to wrap up, few traditional closing questions for you. The first one is your favorite part of your to day. Yeah.
00:56:29
Speaker
Yeah. I like talking to people from all different areas. I just like to i'll have a Zoom with the with a law firm partner and then a legal tech company.
00:56:39
Speaker
Yeah. And maybe an IHC, you know, audience member who wants to participate and maybe a job seeker. You know, I like ah all the I just like all the the the mix of, you know, advice of strategy of, ah you know, energizing people. Yeah.
00:56:59
Speaker
Like just no no day is ever the same. um And i I just like being ah part of the conversation. i don't know if that answer answers your question. it does. It's something that I love about besides this. It's something that I love about my my job as well.
00:57:15
Speaker
Do you have a professional pet peeve? Yeah. I've been thinking, you know, it's funny when you asked when i when you asked this question before. i was like, I don't have any pet peeves. I'm a relaxed, calm guy. then I thought about it. I'm like, oh, then I found too many pet peeves. So I'm going to, this this is my, I guess, i've I'll so go with this pet peeve as my pet peeve.
00:57:36
Speaker
I really don't like the term recovering lawyer. soon okay I don't like it. I don't like it. i yeah Number one, like what who hurt you you know that you're a recovering lawyer? Was it really that bad to be an attorney? like That's like number one.
00:57:52
Speaker
ah I know it's a stressful ah profession, but it's an amazing profession. we When I was doing matrimonial law, I got these kids out of a really bad situation and I got to put them in the arms of their grandparents at Christmas time. Right. I hated matrimonial law. Don't get me wrong. And it was hard. It was tough.
00:58:12
Speaker
The people were in it like, everything was really, really hard. But, I still, you know, you got to find the good. You got to find the, you know, the good parts in these things. So I just feel like, you know, when you say you're a recovering lawyer, you're like, you're announcing to the world that you really, really, really regret going to law school. And I just think like, that's ah that's a waste. And often when they, when this person says that they're a recovering lawyer, it's like the first time you're meeting them. It's like, Hey, I'm shy. I'm a recovering lawyer. Yeah.
00:58:44
Speaker
And now I have to like be polite and like laugh at your, it's a joke, right? It is. But I have to like, ha, ha, ha. Like, yeah, yeah, definitely being a lawyer sucks. But I don't think being a lawyer sucks. I think if you're lucky enough to practice at a high level, to work with great people, to work with a great company, if you're really to maximize the opportunity of being an attorney, you're not going to hate it You're going to love it and you're going to be thrilled by it.
00:59:08
Speaker
and And I just hate like that's like the posture. That's like the energy you are putting out there. It's like I regret. like I regret going to law school. it Like, hey, my name is shy. regret going to law school.
00:59:20
Speaker
Like, no, there's so much more to you than your recovering lawyer stance. You're an entrepreneur and a lawyer. Exactly. You're a former lawyer. Even you're not practicing anymore. Exactly. I like that answer. I think that might start a little bit of debate and I think it'd be a good one to have. Yeah.
00:59:38
Speaker
I like that answer. Gotta throw some grenades, right? Anything for the views, right? want I want this to be number one, the number one abstract episode ever. A book that you would recommend to our listeners. Yeah.
00:59:51
Speaker
so i've been i like biographies too you know i think that's just the best those are like the best books i'm reading sam walton uh made in america okay yeah i i enjoy that book um i i read charlie munger he wrote a book uh recently that was excellent um henry kissinger wrote a book as well he had like profiled six or seven leaders and that was really interesting Those books I find enormously valuable. So anything leadership biography wise, I highly, highly recommend.
01:00:26
Speaker
A final question for you. My traditional yeah closing question. It's if you could look back on your days of being a young lawyer, just getting started maybe as a clerk or doing matrimonial law, something that you know now that you wish that you'd known.
01:00:44
Speaker
Back then. I so this really made me smile. All your questions make me smile, Tyler. We should do this more. um But I'm like laughing because like looking back at my career is such a hodgepodge. Like I wouldn't even know what to if I could go back in the DeLorean and say, hey, shy. Yeah.
01:01:02
Speaker
well I wouldn't know what I would even say, to be honest with you, because it makes no sense. you The only thing i say i would say, and this is tongue in cheek, is buy more Bitcoin. you know Buy Bitcoin. That's honestly like the number one thing I would say. But like truly, like looking in hindsight, I really feel like everything happens for a reason.
01:01:22
Speaker
Like every, at every point in my career, um I was exactly where I needed to be when I needed to be there every, and and it wasn't fun. Like the beginning was not fun at all. Um, but I needed to be there. I needed to learn. I needed to get my feet wet. I needed to, you know, get tough, or whatever it is.
01:01:40
Speaker
um ultimately everything brings you to where you are right now. And I don't have, I don't have any like regrets. I don't have anything I would do differently. I would do it all pretty much the same.
01:01:53
Speaker
Maybe, you know, so some girls I would avoid maybe, you know, like but that's ah that's not professional. But I think that everything happens for a reason. So yeah if I could go back and like tell young shy something, it would just be like, you know, trust everything happens for a reason and just trust, trust that you are where you're supposed to be exactly when you're supposed to be there.
01:02:14
Speaker
I love the energy that you bring to your webinars, to your events, to this podcast. Shai, thank you so much for joining me for this episode of The Abstract. Thank you so much, Tyler. It's a pleasure. I love your jacket, by the way. thank you. find in Paris.
01:02:30
Speaker
Yeah. Love it. That's my favorite. My wife and our favorite place. It's a beautiful place. Yeah. a City of love. a City of love. This is a beautiful city of light. So much, Tyler.
01:02:42
Speaker
Thank you for coming. And to all of our listeners, thank you so much for tuning in. And we hope to see you next time.