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Ep 94: Why Legal Teams Break and How to Fix Them with Manu Kanwar, CEO LexSolutions
0 Playsin 9 hours
How important is the culture of an organization to its success? How can legal leaders cultivate high-performing cultures for their teams and their companies? And why is this something that a lot of legal teams struggle with?
Join Manu Kanwar, Founder and CEO of LexSolutions, as he shares how he improves his clients’ legal teams and why he focuses on strategy, culture, and relationships as the cornerstones of legal innovation.
Listen as Manu discusses strategies for changing work cultures, fixing toxic situations, and maintaining a healthy self-image, why he left Yahoo! after ten years to start his own legal consulting firm, the problem with “doing more with less,” and much more.
Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-94
Topics
Introduction 0:00
Founding LexSolutions after ten years at Yahoo!: 2:07
Approaches to legal innovation: 5:07
Shifting cultures: 7:11
The rewards and challenges of consulting: 9:44
What’s wrong with “do more with less?”: 12:14
Why corporate culture is so hard to get right: 19:25
Who is responsible for changing culture? 26:22
Reinforcing psychological safety: 31:06
Fixing toxic cultures: 32:38
Advice to lawyers in toxic situations: 34:16
Why lawyers struggle with self-image: 41:48
Considering authenticity: 45:58
How to connect with Manu: 52:44
Rapid-fire questions: 53:07
Connect with us:
Manu Kanwar - https://www.linkedin.com/in/mkanwar/
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft
SpotDraft is a leading contract lifecycle management platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues.
Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.
Recommended
Transcript
Impact of Toxic Relationships on Business Culture
00:00:00
Speaker
I've personally, been you know, been involved in businesses where the culture is great. And even within those businesses where the culture has been great, being involved in toxic relationships.
00:00:14
Speaker
So the subculture within a team or a relationship could be incredibly damaging, even when the overall culture is great. So I've just seen different sides of all of that and I've seen how it plays out for the business, I've seen it how it see how it plays out for the team and I've seen it how it plays out for an individual, like my own experience in all of those situations.
00:00:34
Speaker
And I've seen my own physical and mental health suffer in toxic relationships and cultures. And I've seen businesses fail, like literally fail, be pulled apart and not exist anymore because the toxicity of the culture and not wanting or being able to address it.
Introduction to Manu Kanwar and Lex Solutions
00:01:02
Speaker
How important is the culture of an organization to its success? How can legal leaders cultivate high performing cultures for their teams and their companies?
00:01:15
Speaker
And why is this something that a lot of legal teams seem to struggle with? Today, here in London, that's fun for me, I haven't said that before, we are joined on the abstract by Manu Kanwar, co-founder and CEO of Lex Solutions, a legal consultancy that builds solutions that fit your legal team around resourcing, innovation, and culture.
00:01:42
Speaker
Manu previously served as GC for multiple tech companies in the UK, including a long tenure at Yahoo. He started his legal career at Osborne Clark here in London.
00:01:55
Speaker
Yeah. Thanks so much for joining me today for this episode of The Abstract. Thanks for the invitation. ah Good to be This is going to great. And welcome to London. Thank you very much. I'm very happy to be here. ah Okay. Let's start actually with Lex Solutions.
Entrepreneurial Journey and Legal Value Alignment
00:02:10
Speaker
ah Where did the idea come from? Why did you so decide to launch a consultancy? And I give a very brief overview, but what does Lex Solutions focus on?
00:02:23
Speaker
So um and the yeah the idea for Lex Solutions came about when I was at Yahoo. ah And I was at Yahoo for for for quite a long time, heading up corporate and then well commercial and then corporate as well. um I've always been really entrepreneurial and trying to find ways in which we as lawyers could drive real value to the business. you know And when you're in-house, that's you know primarily what what the what the focus is and should be.
00:02:48
Speaker
um I even thought at some stages about moving across into the business. But then found that there was so much more that we could do from from the legal department. And um Yahoo!
00:03:01
Speaker
in my second five, I mean, I was there for like 10 years, but in the in the in the second five years, the so the second half of my tenure, ah We'd gone through, I think, seven CEOs in the space of that time, like including two interims. so And the business was pivoting so much that we were, well, obviously started out as an internet company and then we were a tech company and then we were a data business. And so it was just, it was moving in the whole direction and the business model was moving.
00:03:30
Speaker
um And we, as you know the commercial team, really needed to be ahead of that business strategy in order to be able to deliver that value. Finally, we settled on being a digital ad network when digital ad networks didn't exist.
00:03:43
Speaker
So we really needed to understand what that meant for us. And then not just for my team, um but also for all the other lawyers, like the product lawyers and, you know, in HR, right? Because we need to understand our business to know how we drive value.
00:03:57
Speaker
h And I started out... with a couple of small initiatives in my team um in London and EMEA that then got expanded and sponsored across all of the lawyers in EMEA and then all the lawyers globally.
00:04:10
Speaker
So we had a conference in Napa where all 350 lawyers were working on these initiatives that that that we'd started, um which were largely related to wholly adopting the business objectives of Yahoo rather than legal objectives that we might have come up with in relation to templates or know-how and stuff. It was just looking at the commercial objectives of the business, the commercial challenges of the business, and how as lawyers could we just align fully with that.
00:04:38
Speaker
And the markets across the world were all different, so people had different ways of being able to do it. So when I had all of these lawyers working on you know these small initiatives that we'd started, I think that was the moment that I felt, wow, I want to help other legal teams to do that.
00:04:52
Speaker
yeah um And that was essentially legal ops, legal innovation and at a time when those weren't phrases.
Innovation Beyond Technology in Legal Teams
00:04:59
Speaker
um So the idea was seeded then and then it just grew over the next few years um and yeah and then finally launched almost 10 years ago, about nine and a half years ago.
00:05:08
Speaker
I want to ask you follow-up to that, um which is how do you think about innovation? Because I think that when folks who I have on this podcast or people who I talk to at conferences, are customers even, when they think about legal innovation, often what they're thinking about – procuring some sort of technology. These days they're thinking a lot about ai They might be thinking about like process and workflows around that, least some sort of change management. But um what do you think about when you think about legal innovation? like What does that term mean to mean to you?
00:05:42
Speaker
ah What you're describing at Yahoo sounds like a slightly more whole scale, wholesale way of thinking about what sort of value is the legal team supposed to be delivering to the business.
00:05:53
Speaker
Yeah, a hundred percent. So it starts with that. It starts with the value that we're delivering because we're all working within a business and our primary focus has to be the success of that business.
00:06:03
Speaker
Obviously included within that is also risk and compliance. So I'm not saying that that that's not part of the puzzle. It absolutely is. But how do we drive greater value and success for the organizations within which we work? um And then innovation or you know legal innovation has to be how we find better ways to be able to deliver that kind of value.
00:06:27
Speaker
And that could be speed, it could be better deals, it could be you know you know a way in which that actually we deliver well-being and productivity, not just for the legal team, but for the business guys as well.
00:06:40
Speaker
So it's really just trying to find new and better ways to deliver that kind of value.
Purpose-Led Approach in Legal Innovation
00:06:45
Speaker
um And some of that is obviously educating the business guys as to what a good deal might look like. Because sometimes from the perspective that we have, we can deliver value in a much more holistic way because we are seeing everything. We're seeing the deal, the challenges and the perspectives from lots of different perspectives. Because we deal within legal with all the departments of the C-suite.
00:07:11
Speaker
It strikes me that for a sort of shift in thinking like that to be successful, you have to bring a lot of people along with you. um I'm curious, as you look across the different clients that you've worked with at Lex Solutions, what distinguishes those who do this really, really well from maybe those who struggle a bit with the sort of like change?
00:07:35
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, I mean, ultimately the ones that would do it well would be those that take a much more purpose led approach. So to you, to the point that you made earlier that a lot of people think about tech and about improving processes being innovation.
00:07:52
Speaker
Absolutely. They are, um Whereas we see tech as being the last piece of the puzzle. Well, not even last, but a piece of the puzzle that we would put in that. I kind of with you, actually. Because there's a lot more that you need to be doing or thinking about before then, right? So there's a lot of us that have been saying for many years that focus on the problems you're trying to solve.
00:08:17
Speaker
So where's the value going to come from? What are the inhibitors to driving that kind of value? So what are the challenges you're facing? So what problems do you need to solve in order to be able to deliver
Challenges in Legal Teams and Problem Solving
00:08:27
Speaker
that value? So understanding what your purpose is, what the problems are that you're facing, and then finding ways to improve processes, relationships,
00:08:37
Speaker
um alignment, so driving a better culture and alignment across different departments. All of that work are going to lead to lots and lots of quick wins and pave your path towards the more glitzy innovation that you might do, whether it's in relation to a tech product or AI more generally, whatever it could be.
00:08:58
Speaker
So back to answer your question, that those those ones that do it well and better, i take that they take that measured approach. Because you know rather than just rushing ahead and firefighting and trying to find a solution, it's just stepping back a little bit, thinking about why we're here, thinking about our purpose, thinking about where we are are having challenges in in in in in the ways that we're working. How do we fix that? And then how do we move towards delivering on on the value and the purpose that we talked about?
00:09:27
Speaker
And you build then a roadmap towards and including tech and AI and everything else. But you do it in a way that you find the low-hanging fruit, deliver immediate value, optimize relationships, um and then and then move towards the harder stuff.
00:09:43
Speaker
What do you find most rewarding about this work? And I'm also curious what you find most challenging about it.
00:09:54
Speaker
Okay, good question. So… You're allowed to think. um What I find most rewarding is, I guess, is' is solving problems. it's It's finding answers to those challenges. um And what I find most rewarding in relation to that is that the solutions are and the value is is sometimes, if not often, to be found in places that you're not looking.
00:10:26
Speaker
So it's by taking that step back, taking that measured approach, aligning all your stakeholders, being able to create safe space for all those conversations, looking at the problems from different perspectives, and then coming up with solutions that at the beginning people were thinking are not viable, were never going to happen, or just like weren't weren't really issues.
00:10:45
Speaker
um So what I find most rewarding is is is taking an approach that both surprises surprises truly satisfies people. um and And your second question was, what what what is what's most challenging? What's most challenging about this sort of work? yeah I guess it's just that um i think I think everyone, you know,
00:11:08
Speaker
in any in-house team are largely frustrated by two things. One, that they've got just too much on. You're firefighting constantly, um not just ah in terms of volume of work. Obviously, that's a big one.
00:11:21
Speaker
But also, you know, relationships and being able to demonstrate value. And there are lots of different perspectives that we are under fire for. um And budget. um And so what I find challenging is is that there's so much value to be had and and to be delivered if people were able and were empowered to be able to create that space, that time, um and also you know to apply you know a bit more budget to it. because
00:11:54
Speaker
Ultimately, we would to throw money at problems thinking that they're going to we're going to be able to solve them, but that's not necessarily going to work unless you're taking like a much more measured approach. I want to ask
Critique of 'Do More with Less' in Legal Teams
00:12:05
Speaker
you a question about budget actually, um and we are going to talk about culture too because that's something that's think unique to the approach that you take. um You keep hearing ah lot, do more with less, do more with less, we're being told to do more with less.
00:12:22
Speaker
um
00:12:25
Speaker
I don't know. I mean, I guess I don't think like this sort of like AI solutions are quite there yet for that to be a truly palatable reality.
00:12:36
Speaker
um i think even when that is the case, a lot of the times what you really want to do is do some things much faster and more efficiently, but then go and fight a lot of other fires that are burning.
00:12:48
Speaker
ah what What comes to mind for you when you hear from clients we've been told to do more with less by our CFO or GC or CEO or whoever it is?
00:13:01
Speaker
So I've got, I think I've got two
00:13:07
Speaker
Two flip side of a coin answers to that. I think, I don't know, I haven't quite worked it out in my head just yet. And I'll explain why i'm I'm pondering over this. One, i totally get that's a reality, right? That all GCs are faced with that, that that's what we've been told for a long time.
00:13:24
Speaker
It's not a new phrase, but it's it's just like an ever evergreen it's an evergreen challenge. um and and And circumstances change and there is more to be done and there is less budget available. So it just becomes an impossible um problem to solve.
00:13:41
Speaker
So I understand that we do need to navigate it and that we do need to find ways to be able to deliver value with the limited budgets and the limited resource and the limited time that we've got.
00:13:52
Speaker
And there are lots of ways that we can do that, you know, along the lines that I was describing earlier to be able to, you know, just take a step out and find different perspectives. to have stakeholder alignment. So we're not working you know in silos. We're working with those other teams that we're supporting, like literally with them to be able to come up with solutions that in the moment everyone agrees are going to deliver value for everyone. you know I mean, we can we can we weaken talk maybe more about that as well.
00:14:21
Speaker
But the other side of the coin is that is a bit of is a massive frustration that legal should be burdened with a challenge like that.
00:14:32
Speaker
here It's often, if not always, the legal team that seems to be burdened with that more than any other department. Okay, yeah, marketing a little bit, but then marketing also is related to revenue so they can get budget because they can demonstrate value in a different way.
00:14:47
Speaker
um it's it's It's always been the case that that legal are tasked with having to do more with less, whereas other departments may not be so much. And i think it's because we find it difficult to demonstrate value. um But I've just come from lunch with a mentor and a really good friend of mine, like Paul Gilbert, and he'll absolutely hate me mentioning his name. he He's so modest.
00:15:12
Speaker
Who is he just to for so for those of us? So so yeah so Paul um was a longtime GC, very well known in the legal community. And, um you know, over the last 10, 15 years, he's been part has become a very renowned um mentor, coach, and ah sounding board within the legal sector.
00:15:34
Speaker
um And a future podcast guest. i yeah I'd hear that. love for you to have him on. i He's so incredibly modest um and that and and you know he he may not... in Actually, he said to me, he's never done a podcast. He's never had a video recorded because he just won't. He just won't do it. He's always in the moment. And he is, a getting like again, like, you know, he's he's not a meditator. We know talk about meditation, but, you know, he is always, always in the moment, which makes him such a special person and such a great mentor.
00:16:04
Speaker
um he He ran a program called LBC and it's a leadership program. um he He's now passed the baton on to to to the faculty um and so we're going to be running LBC going forwards. But when I was there as a delegate um last year and this is is a speech that he gives, you know, a talk that he gives to to to all members every year.
00:16:28
Speaker
was was was about this phrase, was about this, how dangerous it is to succumb, to capitulate to this um obsession with the business that the lawyers need to do more with less.
00:16:43
Speaker
And his position is no. but The maths doesn't work. Yeah. How can we do more with less? You want us to deliver more value. You want us to be able to help this business be successful.
00:16:57
Speaker
But like we're human beings and we're tasked with the same kind. of So at what point if we keep doing more with less, more with less, more with less, you give us more, you, you, you, you yeah. So, yeah, you, you, um,
00:17:09
Speaker
give us more to do with less resources, something's going to break, right? The system's going to break, risks are going to be taken that shouldn't be taken, people are going to become unwell, and we see all of those things happening all of the time.
00:17:23
Speaker
So, no, we're not going to do more with less.
Culture's Role in Business Success and Relationships
00:17:26
Speaker
Actually, we can do more with more, or we can do less with less. So you as a business decide what you want us to do.
00:17:35
Speaker
And I think you know it's very difficult you know when we're in the moment you know with the CFO or the business just to say no. But there is a lot to be said for us to just take a step back and go, okay, it's right.
00:17:49
Speaker
you know we We need to be making sure that compliance is is strong, integrity remains high, that people remain well, and the business is being adequately served. Those are really, really important things.
00:18:01
Speaker
h and uniquely the legal team are placed to be able to deliver them yeah so we should be elevating the position and the perception of legal so that we can deliver true value but are adequately resourced remunerated and respected for it here one reaction to that would be ah saying that we're going to continue to get better at what we do or operate more efficiently year in, year out, just as every other team does within a business or adapt to changing trends. right you know
00:18:40
Speaker
Maybe now we have product councils that we didn't have before. ah That's not the same as saying we have to do more with less year in, year out. Yeah. Right. yeah and No one's saying that we're not going to improve. Yeah, exactly. yeah Yeah. We're not still like writing, literally writing our contracts like we've moved way, way, way ahead of that. Right.
00:19:00
Speaker
So, yeah. and And we always like challenges. We always like self-improvement. And there's a great thing about. But lawyers are always trying to strive for perfection and do things better. So that's natural. We're going to do that. Right. So that's fine.
00:19:13
Speaker
um But to to to to continue to us to expect us to deliver more value with less resources and less time is just the maths doesn't work.
00:19:25
Speaker
Maybe this is a good lead-in to culture. um It's one of the things I guess that Lex Solutions does sort of uniquely is focus not just on the sort of resourcing side or like the innovation and tech side of consulting but also does consulting around culture for legal teams.
00:19:41
Speaker
um I guess maybe a first question would be why do you think culture is so hard to get right?
Addressing Toxic Culture and Promoting Healthy Relationships
00:19:52
Speaker
Two reasons. One, it's not considered enough. ah It's like ah an afterthought or it's something that we talk about but don't really do.
00:20:03
Speaker
So it's not really, really um invested in. um And the other thing is because culture is not easy necessarily, right? It's about human beings and human beings are complex. We're all complex.
00:20:18
Speaker
So it takes a bit of time, a bit of investment, a bit of thinking about how to do it right. and And it goes down to... you know, understanding us as human beings and as individuals to get it right.
00:20:32
Speaker
It's not just going to be a one solution, fitting everyone, making everything work. You're not going to be able to wave a wand at this. You need to be thinking about different needs. You need to be thinking about diversity and inclusion. You think about well-being. You need to be thinking about Remote working or hybrid working and all all of these things, all of these factors, they're all important and they're all important because people have different needs.
00:20:53
Speaker
So so that's why it's I would say that's why it's more challenging. I still I mean, it's not difficult, difficult. It's not an impossible challenge to solve.
00:21:04
Speaker
But you know given appropriate ways to to to think about it and and using lots of different tools to understand people and align ah you know teams and and and build better relationships um is is important.
00:21:19
Speaker
How has your experience led you to conclude that this is something that's really important to focus on so much so that you would make it a big part of your practice?
00:21:31
Speaker
um Because I've I've personally been you know been involved in in in businesses where the culture is great. um And even within those businesses where the culture has been great, being involved in toxic relationships.
00:21:51
Speaker
So the subculture within a team or a relationship could be incredibly damaging, even when the overall culture is great. h And then I've been in situations where the overall culture is incredibly toxic, but individual relationships are strong um and supportive.
00:22:08
Speaker
so i've just seen different sides of all of that and i've seen how it plays out for the business i've seen it how it see how it plays out for the team and i've seen it how it plays out for an individual like my own experience in all of those situations um and i've seen my own physical and mental health suffer in in toxic relationships and cultures And I've seen businesses fail, like literally fail, be pulled apart and no not exist anymore because of the toxicity of the culture and not wanting or being able to address it.
00:22:44
Speaker
Mm hmm. um And it's a shame.
Training in Organizational Relationship Systems
00:22:46
Speaker
It's a shame when you look at that and you think, wow, you know, there's there's no reason why that business should have failed. In fact, should have been a dead set. um But, you know, the only one common denominator or the most important common denominator was that.
00:23:02
Speaker
So I guess, you know, having then gone on my own journey, having had, you know, you know, you know ah time to reflect and think about and having to to to to work on myself. um And um that was empowering for me, helpful for me.
00:23:21
Speaker
But also then it was something that I wanted to bring back and give back. um So then I started thinking about, you know, if, if you know, you know to if If I were to deliver or help teams to deliver better cultures, stronger relationships, how would I do that? I trained as a um ah coach ah in a methodology called organizational relationship systems coaching.
00:23:45
Speaker
Okay. Bit of a mouthful. But it's basically about, you know, understanding any relationship, even between two people as ah simple system.
00:23:57
Speaker
um And then obviously the more people you have in a team or an organization, the more complex that system becomes. but But each relationship creates a third entity. So you have in a relationship of two people, you have three entities. There's a relationship and there are two people in it.
00:24:10
Speaker
Sure. The more complex the the the more the more people you have in a team or organization, the more complex that system is. But the system is always intelligent, generative and creative. So the system is always going to move towards achieving the objectives of the people in it.
00:24:24
Speaker
But the people in it don't know what impact they're having or what impact they're taking away. The system as a whole is unaware. So we need to find ways to inject awareness, intentionality and purpose and things like that.
00:24:36
Speaker
So that's one way I've gone on a bit of a tangent. But so i super interesting yeah i trained I trained as that. And then I found ways to sort of bring some of the exercises, some of the learnings from that into my day to day work.
00:24:48
Speaker
um And then as I've gone on my own well-being journey, um you know, i've I've started to introduce other things that that that I never thought I'd be able to talk about in, you know, in in in legal circles because I teach meditation.
00:25:01
Speaker
um've I've got my own coaching model called purposeful alignment, um which which goes to us as as human beings. um and and And, you know, and and there's more appetite to have those conversations now. So,
Interconnection of Innovation, Strategy, and Culture
00:25:13
Speaker
yeah.
00:25:13
Speaker
and And then threading that back to the things that we were talking about, threading that with innovation and stuff like that. has just delivered profound results for us and for the teams that we work with.
00:25:25
Speaker
um That's just encouraged me just to keep just to keep going. Because everyone wants to deliver change, everyone wants to deliver value, but change shouldn't be an afterthought. It shouldn't be something that we do at the end.
00:25:38
Speaker
It should be thought about right at the beginning, at the planning stages, when we originally get our stakeholders together to think about like what are we doing and why are we doing it. And so i i don't I can't see how innovation, strategy and culture could be dealt with separately. They're rather inextricably linked and they need to be dealt with as as that. So that's a long-winded way to say why why it's an important part of Alex's.
00:26:04
Speaker
I have so many questions for you now. so gold Do you want to start with the company perspective or do you want to start with, I've got a couple of questions for you personally. Where do you want to begin?
00:26:19
Speaker
ah mine um okay i mean Let's but's talk about where responsibility lies for this, maybe. I think that's an interesting area to explore. um Does it lie with the general counsel?
00:26:37
Speaker
Does it lie with the executive team broadly? i mean I think of course, probably it does, right? But does it lie with anybody who's in management, what sort of autonomy do individuals have within an organization? like How do you think about that does that is that? Is that enough of a question to get us started?
00:26:58
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. yeah think I'll keep this going for a little while. um So, i mean, ultimately, yeah, the responsibility is with the exec team and the you know the business, you know the the leaders of the business.
00:27:10
Speaker
um But that, you know as I was alluding to earlier, it doesn't mean then if they don't take responsibility that the general counsel or any leader is abdicated from not doing that within their own team.
00:27:22
Speaker
So ultimately, we're all responsible for the culture that we deliver within the teams that we lead or that we work in. here um And of course, got lost as to how we're going to navigate all of this.
00:27:36
Speaker
um But yeah, I mean, i how much autonomy there should be. or I mean, ultimately, what you would expect and what you would ideally want is for, you know, the the overall leadership of the business to have a clear purpose and vision and values and all of that.
00:27:53
Speaker
But as you know, it has become a cliche in its own right, you know, those vision and values and purpose isn't something to be laminated and put in a drawer. it needs to be lived, needs to be well understood. So how can we a make sure that we understand them we within the exec team and how can we make sure that, you know, people understand what it means to them, you know, in in their responsibility in their roles and responsibilities and and their teams and how they how can they live that?
00:28:17
Speaker
So we need to find a way to for to align and thread all the way through. hmm. um But we are responsible you know for for the teams within which which we work. So even if we can't influence necessarily what's happening at the top, we can certainly influence what's happening within our own teams.
00:28:32
Speaker
So we need to find ways of understanding where people are at, right? where well yeah Where people are at married to the purpose of our own particular team. So how do we fit in How do we work better with each other?
00:28:45
Speaker
We need to understand where and how there could be challenges to delivering the kind of atmosphere, the kind of relationships, the kind of culture that we want. And we need to, in order to be able to do that, we need to be able to create safe space. So psychological safety, so people can have the conversations.
00:29:00
Speaker
don This is what you consider to be the purpose of our team or organization. This is what you consider to be the values and and everything else that we should lived by. But actually they're not.
00:29:11
Speaker
For me, I don't feel that. I don't feel that because of X, Y, Z. Now, no one's going to own up and say that unless they're in a safe space. So there's lots of ways in which we need to be able to create that safe space to optimize those relationships for that information to flow.
00:29:25
Speaker
And as that information flows, then we can understand each other's needs and how we can deliver on each other's needs towards that overall purpose. You asked about autonomy and people definitely need autonomy, right? But but it's not just, it you know, it's not to say you're responsible for culture, off you go.
00:29:41
Speaker
They need autonomy for their work. They need autonomy for the way they bring themselves to work and so on.
Creating High Motivation and Psychological Safety in Teams
00:29:47
Speaker
There's this theory of self-determination, which talks about how to lead motivated teams. And for for for for you to have high motivation in a team, there are three basic human rights that are needed.
00:29:58
Speaker
here One is connectedness. You need to feel that you're part of a team, that you're part of a tribe, that you've got each other's back. Another is competence. Now competence is the balance between being challenged. So you need to be challenged. You want to be challenged.
00:30:16
Speaker
But also you you you don't want to be so challenged that you your task is impossible. So you need to feel that you've got an opportunity to succeed. So it's getting that balance. That's where the competence comes in.
00:30:26
Speaker
And the third is autonomy. You don't want to be in a position where you're just told what you need to be doing. You need to have some freedom to you know, understanding where we're going, understanding what our purpose is understanding what we need to deliver and then have some freedom, creativity around how you do that.
00:30:40
Speaker
And if you balance those three things within a team or an organization, you have highly motivated, well-performing people. um So all of those things are are different facets and and and the the responsibility of different people within the team. But ultimately, I've probably spent five minutes to answer your question, that the responsibility lies with with the leaders of those teams.
00:31:02
Speaker
Sure. Yeah, definitely the organizing, but but definitely in the within the teams. You've brought up the sort of ah concept of like psychological safety, um which I personally agree with.
00:31:14
Speaker
But I know there's a lot of execs out there who would say, okay, i sort of see that, but I also really pride us on having an organization that has a lot of candor or a lot of transparency.
00:31:29
Speaker
How do you respond to that? Do you view those concepts as and conflict? No, and not at all. I don't see how they're mutually exclusive at all. um Would you say, yeah and I'm not saying you would say, but would they say, for instance, that, you know, they want to have a lot of candor and transparency, you know, to the point that they are free to bully, hurt, exclude other people?
00:31:55
Speaker
Well, no, right. You don't have the freedom to be able to do that. So you'd want to have the transparency so everyone feels safe to explain what their needs are and how they feel in an organization and what do they need to be able to deliver on the success, ah you know, towards the success of that organization.
00:32:13
Speaker
um And if I feel that I'm being bullied or I'm being excluded or right you haven't really got my back and I i won't own up, then I'm not going to be transparent. There is no candor.
00:32:25
Speaker
so So we need to be able to create the environment where we can have transparency and candor, but in a civilized and respectful
Recovering from Toxic Culture
00:32:35
Speaker
way.
00:32:35
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. um When organizations have culture that goes south, let's say, um how in your experience like what does an organization need to do to recover? Or how have you gone maybe in with with clients and helped them try to right-size what's happening, fix what's happening?
00:32:58
Speaker
I mean, the first step is to recognize that things are not right. Yeah. um And not be so headstrong that we just got to continue down this path in the way that we are doing it. So you need to, A, understand there's an issue and recognize that we probably need to pivot, change. What do we need to do?
00:33:15
Speaker
um and And finding ways to be, you know, for the organization to be self-reflective and humble, to be able to think about, right, what do how do we do it? And if you yeah if you have that as an approach from the beginning,
00:33:28
Speaker
Then solutions come because the solutions are not going to come from from me coming in to say this is what you need to do. Right. we we The solutions are already there. Sure. Within the organization, within the relationships, within the people. And that's where it's going to have the greatest impact.
00:33:45
Speaker
Because, you know, I'm not going to be there forever. no one there So we're going to help facilitate for teams to be able to optimize their relationships, deliver on their purpose, deliver value.
Self-Awareness and Self-Care in Adverse Work Environments
00:33:57
Speaker
And then for that to be a you know, ah a um self-perpetuating like dynamo essentially. Right. So it's going to be serving them on an ongoing basis. And.
00:34:08
Speaker
and um I've lost my train of thought. That's right. i mean a question for you then on this too. I mean i think – well, one of the things I'm interested in hearing a little more about is you know as you've been on your own journey and you've you know left businesses where individual relationships might have been tough or where culture might have been tough more broadly.
00:34:32
Speaker
you know, um sort of what advice do you have for other people who might be as individuals in that situation or how have you responded to that after like after stepping away and and leaving like the sort of time that you take and the work that you do to then say, okay, now I'm really excited about going back and tackling some new challenge. Like how have you worked through this sort of thing?
00:34:54
Speaker
I think the most important thing is to understand um It's to understand our own needs um as individuals.
00:35:06
Speaker
But even beyond that, it's to understand what is causing me the the feelings of dysfunction or the the the um the the challenging feelings that I'm having.
00:35:23
Speaker
right i mean obviously you know working in a relation within an organization or a team that's that's dysfunctional or toxic or ah with with with a leader that maybe so and so on has an impact right sure and absolutely but but but some of that i have to just understand is some of the stuff that i'm internalizing like how do i view myself or how am i perpetuating a negative view of myself that's allowing me to be affected by that I'm not saying that I'm excusing you know the and you know the environments within which they're working and putting all responsibility on the individual, right? I'm definitely, definitely not saying that.
00:36:01
Speaker
But we owe it to ourselves to at least understand how am I... programmed and how am i perpetuating that programming here from an external circumstance so um and again this is probably another tangent but you know in in purposeful alignment right the coaching that that that that that i that i teach we talk about four misalignments that we have as human beings And those misalignments we all have because our biology doesn't really care about our happiness.
00:36:33
Speaker
Our biology cares about getting our genes into the next generation. So that's what that's what it's all about. So those those misalignments, they are misalignments because essentially they are features for evolution that have made the human race incredibly successful.
00:36:48
Speaker
sure But they're bugs for individual happiness. And so... we then are on an ongoing basis always just slightly, if not very misaligned within ourselves.
00:37:00
Speaker
When we understand what these misalignments are, then you know there's a way to be able to counter them. But one of the big ones is um that this is as a primal fear that we are programmed with right from an early age that I'm not good enough, that I'm not whole, that I'm not worthy.
00:37:20
Speaker
And it's almost a universal feeling. Even people who think that they don't have that, they have that. Because right from an early age, right? Remember the beginning when we're born, the amygdala is fully formed, right? So the lizard part of our brain, which is millions of years old, is sending us signals of risk to keep us safe.
00:37:39
Speaker
But the human part of our brain actually isn't fully formed until we're 25. So how does a human part of our brain compute with these signals of life or death like at that early stage? um And the only way that we can do that is if we have protection from our tribe and our tribe is essentially our parents and then our siblings and then our school friends and then our colleagues. So I need to feel part of that tribe to be able to get the protection and the acceptance that is going to keep me safe.
00:38:09
Speaker
Mm hmm. So whatever values, behaviors they approve of, I'm going to do more of. But that means the flip side of that is that I feel that I'm not good enough unless I do those things, unless I have more of those things.
00:38:25
Speaker
So everyone's narrative is then different, right? Somebody then has to be super, super good at sports. Somebody else needs to be super, super academic. Somebody else needs to make sure that um they are always you know looking good aesthetically, pleased with themselves, whatever it might be. So we build our narrative over time because we we need the external validation to make us feel that we are whole.
00:38:50
Speaker
Our biology will not allow us to see that we are already whole despite of that. um So again, like a very long answer to what you were saying is ah how do how do I, an individual, come back?
00:39:07
Speaker
it's It's by, you know, working on things like this, understanding, like, why am I, and how am I triggered by different events? You know, if somebody says something about me, then why do I take that so personally?
00:39:19
Speaker
do i Why do I believe it? If I have this and understanding about myself, if I have an understanding of what my triggers are and my misalignments are and how to counter them, then I'm building this, like, shield around me. Mm-hmm.
00:39:34
Speaker
that I'm self-protecting and becoming on an ongoing basis more and more self-aware. So whatever's happening on the outside, I'm less affected by. And if it is a truly toxic relationship and an environment that I can't influence,
00:39:49
Speaker
then I know I need to walk away and I'm safe in doing so and I'm much happier doing so. I won't regret that I've made that decision. Because the other thing is if you walk away, you can regret the decision and then you're beating yourself up about something else.
00:40:03
Speaker
so So you feel happier to make that decision, but also you feel more empowered within that situation to be able to stand your ground and explain what it is that you need. So all the way around, we are in a much but better position. so So the stuff that I've learned like for myself and that I want people to understand is is is is is just like that that that that we need to more be more self-aware, self-compassionate and self-sufficient.
00:40:33
Speaker
um And again, that's not saying that you're wholly responsible for the well-being in your team or organization. But we are certainly wholly responsible for our own you know well-being, our own mental well-being in that sense.
Unique Challenges for Lawyers and Stress Management
00:40:46
Speaker
who A reaction to that I guess would be like something that that made me think of is think people often also struggle with um taking a long view.
00:40:57
Speaker
It doesn't mean like you're like a nihilist and you're like, oh, none of my relationships at work matter at all. And like I won't even remember this person in 30 years and who cares? Like that's not the point, right? – um but when you're in a really difficult situation at work or in life as well, um sometimes it can be tough to take that much sort of longer term or longer run view and say, no, no, no like I really, I need to look after myself here even even if Standing up to this person at work who I feel like isn't treating me well is going to be hard in the moment.
00:41:34
Speaker
I'm going to be okay because over the long run, right? Like this is just going to be a blip. um Just a reaction to what you were saying. um and yeah if I guess i i thought if I'm going add a question to that, it would be, um you know.
00:41:51
Speaker
I can think of a variety of reasons, but why do you think sort of like lawyers and legal teams, I wouldn't say uniquely struggle with this, but the stats aren't great, right? um If you look at things, whether it's substance abuse or etc., right?
00:42:06
Speaker
it It does seem like this is something that lawyers struggle with more than the general population, maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, i think I think that's right. I think that's right. So I gave actually a purposeful alignment session talk to to a group of leaders just a couple of weeks ago.
00:42:22
Speaker
And i'm one of the questions that came back saying, as you came up with you know this these models and as you were researching all of these different things, did you have lawyers in mind?
00:42:33
Speaker
Because it seems to at me that you know that all of the things that you're doing is so relevant to or even more relevant to lawyers. And i mean, ah didn't have lawyers in mind, um but you're right.
00:42:46
Speaker
We are uniquely challenged in you know, and so maybe maybe even though I wasn't only thinking about lawyers, it makes sense because it's environment that I've grown up in um But also, if you think about the tendencies that we as lawyers have in order to make us good lawyers,
00:43:04
Speaker
and that are then trained into us even more so over a period of time um then those tendencies would be things like perfectionism sure so you are always you know trying to make sure spot the mistakes you know and make sure we don't make any mistakes you know that there's there's there's no risk and so on um and we're always striving to make sure that we get to the you know to to the best solution and we're always upset if there is a mistake or whatever else so that perfectionism is a problem Second is rumination. The rumination is, again, understanding like, OK, what's the worst thing that can happen?
00:43:39
Speaker
What's the worst thing can happen if we agree to this clause? What's the worst thing can happen if we agree to that clause? And on all the different permutations of all of that. So we're constantly thinking about the worst case scenario. um And then the third is that we're people pleasers.
00:43:53
Speaker
So, especially what we learn in private practice, youre you know, clients number one, you've got to keep the client happy and so on. So we're always trying to make people happy. We're trying to keep the business happy. We're trying to um keep our trainees happy and everyone's all right. so So we're always thinking about that.
00:44:08
Speaker
And think those tendencies are pretty much universal within the legal sector. Like all all good lawyers will have all three of those, but then it's really trained into us at law school and then, ah and then you know, a private practice and then beyond that.
00:44:20
Speaker
So we do struggle with all of these all of these things. um and it But it's you know awareness is the first step in them being able to understand had why how does it affect me and how do I break away from that? Or how do I find a healthier way to be able to still deliver value but not have it so um negatively ah affecting me?
00:44:44
Speaker
Because all of these things, if we don't address them, then they will lead to you know maladaptive behaviors or chronic illness. um And I've, you know ah you know, I would say I've i've i've done both of those.
00:44:59
Speaker
um um and or wow i've said I've done the maladaptive behaviors and then ah in order to be able to cope or in in order to be able to avoid tricky situations um and I've been subject to chronic conditions. I've had Crohn's disease since I was 16. So, you know, at the most stressful periods of my life I've had massive flare-ups. so um And interestingly, and the flare-ups happen Not even necessarily at the time of the stressful event because you're so full of adrenaline and cortisol to deal with the event that it's usually about six months afterwards that you have a flare when you've calmed down. um
00:45:35
Speaker
And that's Crohn's but you know people have lots of other conditions. So you know it's it's it's it's that chronic thinking and rumination and everything else and dealing with stress. And not being kind to ourselves, not being protective or loving of ourselves, um that starts to, you know that really turns that toxicity into a ah true poison.
Authentic Leadership and Organizational Culture
00:45:57
Speaker
One other concept that I want to explore with you around culture. ah and and I've been thinking a lot about authenticity in leadership and communication and um to what extent do you work with whether it's GCs or or others around this. And I think authenticity can be hard for people in the workplace.
00:46:21
Speaker
but Like people who say bring your whole self to work. i mean you probably shouldn't bring your whole self to work, right? Yeah, yeah. um All the time. Yeah. That being said, um you know, if you try to be the GC who never has any problems and is always very serious and never tells a joke, and right? I mean unless that's actually maybe your authentic personality, right? Yeah, right, right.
00:46:48
Speaker
People also won't trust you or respect you really because they'll wonder. yeah So, I mean, how do you think about this? um How have you worked with clients on on this, coached them around this concept?
00:47:00
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, again, it comes back to, I guess, the first point, you know, an earlier point that I made about really understanding ourselves and being comfortable and true to ourselves and why we need to do that.
00:47:11
Speaker
um and then And then how that builds on a better relationship. It also helps to understand how people are perceived because we don't necessarily know how how we are perceived um within within teams organizations and it helps to have conversations within a team so that you know people can be open and and honest to be able to to demonstrate, well, A, how they're affected by each other, but but but also to demonstrate how...
00:47:37
Speaker
delivering, you know, our authentic selves and being more open, being more vulnerable, um being more um empathic with each other actually just delivers a completely different culture and a completely different context.
00:47:52
Speaker
And when you start to see that, then it starts to become easier to do. But I think, mope the the you know, in with a lot of leaders, that the number one the the number one issue that prevents us being truly authentic is because we're afraid of what other people might think.
00:48:07
Speaker
yeah And actually, you know to your point, it's actually it's a much more positive response that you get than you expect. But it comes from what I was talking about earlier, that we don't necessarily have you know a high regard for ourselves, or we're so worried about what other people are going to think about us that we can't see clearly towards ourselves. um And so if we find you know that that if we can find ways to be able to to do that, um but again, it starts you know with but self-awareness first.
Managing Change with Presence and Mindfulness
00:48:39
Speaker
And then authenticity you know translates out from the individual right to an organization. see So, you know, how how authentic is an organization? um And that's something else that that that we work with. You know, for instance, we've got a collaboration with the Maturity Institute to deliver um a benchmark called the Law Firm Maturity Index.
00:49:01
Speaker
And that's authenticity at an organizational level. So the ah the law firm may, you know, say that its purpose values xyz and it may think that that's the case but actually the reality could be different so is there a gap in authenticity there um and how is that affecting the people in it and how is that affecting the relationships with clients so how can we use things like that and the data that comes from from um from from um from diagnostics like that to be able to deliver authenticity right from the top right down to the individual
00:49:34
Speaker
um All of what we've been talking about today, whether it's sort of like focusing on innovation in your organization or realigning with the purpose of the business or trying to shift the culture you have at work or even this sort of like personal approach or work on yourself. Yeah.
00:49:54
Speaker
How do folks think about this in a manageable way? I guess would be the way I would put the question, right? um Which is sort of like whole scale shift in the way that your team runs or the culture of the business or how you bring yourself to work or, right?
00:50:15
Speaker
Right. Wholesale change can be really hard to contemplate. um how do you How do you counsel clients around making this you know intentional but also manageable?
00:50:27
Speaker
but also manageable so i mean it's only going to happen within the the environments which which we in which they work so like i said there's not one size that fits all sure um and so so the answers are going to come from within that team within that organization and actually the answer is going to come from within that individual so it's not something that you know i you or anyone can tell them what to do they have to find it from within themselves um because they have to understand what their challenges are to be able to
00:50:58
Speaker
be better aligned, to be more, to be able to be more creative or authentic or whatever it might be. um And so the answer to that is actually, I think, to find more presence,
00:51:14
Speaker
It's certainly true of an individual. So like I would always recommend if people don't have a practice of of of meditating or taking time out, but just spend five minutes, even two minutes a day just to stop and think, what is it?
00:51:32
Speaker
what Where am I now? What am I thinking? What do I need? What feeling? Just check in with yourself. And then there's a practice beyond that. But even if you're just doing that,
00:51:44
Speaker
two minutes a day five minutes a day within that presence as you start to slow down the answers start to come and it sounds a bit trite but they definitely do um and it's then true of a team or organization so how do we find time just to slow down and think and just become more present because we're all rushing towards you know answering all of these problems and delivering greater success 100 we need to be doing that But sometimes you need to slow down to speed up and we just need to have to create that space.
00:52:17
Speaker
And presence creates the space within which you can start to recognize your thoughts, within which you can get in touch with your feelings, within which a team can become more open.
00:52:30
Speaker
And in that openness, you know, you've you've created a ah crack that the light starts to come in. And whether that's for an individual or a team, that light has a big impact, even just a crack of light.
00:52:42
Speaker
And slowly it gets bigger.
Closing Thoughts and Personal Insights
00:52:45
Speaker
If folks want to get connected with you or find out more about what you're doing, how can they how can they find you? Where can they find you?
00:52:52
Speaker
um So LinkedIn is probably the best one. So, you know, reach out to me on on LinkedIn. Lex Solutions has a website. Otherwise, you can find my profile there. But i'm ah I'm active on LinkedIn. So, you know, feel free to send me a request or or a message.
00:53:06
Speaker
um Okay, I've got some closing questions for you that I like to ask true all my guests. ah I think they're kind of fun and a little less serious. The first one is your favorite part of your day to day.
00:53:21
Speaker
ah ah fact that It's working with people, whether it's you know whether it's my team or whether it's clients. um And it's just engaging with them in a really authentic way, just a normal way.
00:53:36
Speaker
um So, yeah, just finding ways to be able to create and build those relationships. Do you have a professional pet peeve?
00:53:47
Speaker
I guess in some ways it's counter to the first one, right? we get so wrapped up in our roles our
00:53:58
Speaker
challenges and our like needs and our organizations um that it's sometimes just a little bit difficult to be authentic or for people to be authentic and so we end up with just a lot of unnecessary bullshit yeah am i allowed say yes um so you know and so my pet peeve is like why do we why do we have that like why do we have that can we just like move that aside and get real Do you have a book that you would recommend to our listeners?
00:54:30
Speaker
It doesn't have to be a business book. It could be a meditation book. I don't know. Is there a book you'd recommend? So i'm can I give you more than one? Absolutely. Yeah. So I want to give you three now, actually. Great. I thought I was going to give you two, going So um then the first one would be by Gabor Mate and his latest book is The Myth of Normal.
00:54:50
Speaker
Okay. um So Gabor Mate is like world-renowned authority on... first he was the world renowneded authority on addiction um And in ways of treating addiction, he found that we shouldn't be treating addiction, we should be treating the pain.
00:55:05
Speaker
So that led him to become the world authority on trauma. And the way he redefines trauma is that it's not necessarily a terrible event that happens to some people. It's just any event or circumstances in which a child's needs went unmet.
00:55:22
Speaker
That creates a traumatic event, that creates a traumatic circumstance that then leads you know that that that person to have like vulnerabilities that can persist over time and negative self-worth and whatever it might be or you know have negative toxicity that I need to do this in order to feel successful. I need to be that to be happy.
00:55:42
Speaker
I need to have this to feel content. you know None of these things are true. um And so those are myths, but also the fact that there is a normal that we all should subscribe to is a myth. And so he talks about that at length with lots of other you know perspectives and stuff. It's a brilliant book and a really important perspective.
00:56:00
Speaker
um The second one, just because I've only just finished it, is ADHD 2.0. um So it's about ADHD by two authors who really made ADHD more...
00:56:14
Speaker
well known um in in in the world. And they're just now coming back to say, obviously, there's a lot more being written and talked about ADHD, but this is what we see from our perspective. And it's just a brilliant book for people who think that there may be suffering and the people who think that, you know, they may have a partner or a child or others that may be. And actually, I think for any good leader to read and just understand what it means, because we talk about ADHD superpowers, but nobody really gets what it actually means.
00:56:40
Speaker
And there are lots of you know negative traits and challenges that that that that people with ADHD suffer from that are not well understood, that people just write off, and that you need to man up and change and get what better organized or whatever, which is just not it's not not helpful.
00:56:56
Speaker
um And I mean, i'm I'm not diagnosed yet. I'm waiting for a diagnosis. But it's something that I'm starting to learn about, interesting not just for myself, but for other people. So, you know, I may or may not be, but this certainly resonates really, really strongly. Yeah.
00:57:10
Speaker
and then the third one just because like i mentioned him earlier paul gilbert um he's he's brought out a few books which are all just beautiful um but the one he brought out last year was called the mentor um and um and it's it's beautifully presented it's just like beautiful writings and he talks about his journey and his journey uh as a sort of coach and a mentor but while he takes you through an art gallery essentially And it's just like, it's his life story written through that and it's just it's just beautiful.
00:57:41
Speaker
um And I think really, really poignant, especially at a time like now. Great recommendations. um My last question for you, my traditional closing quet question for my guests, it's if you could look back on your days being a young lawyer, maybe just getting started, something that you know now that you wish that you'd known back then,
00:58:04
Speaker
i think it goes I think it goes back to what I was saying earlier, right? It's just understanding my own worth and understanding that not just me, but we are all already worthy.
00:58:17
Speaker
And we're caught up in an environment where we feel we need to do X, be Y in order to be successful, to be happy. And actually none of that is true.
00:58:28
Speaker
So just to understand that that I need, you know, is understanding how to be more self-aware and self-compassionate in order that I am less influenced by what other people define success and happiness as, but I can find it for myself.
00:58:48
Speaker
What a great way to end this episode. ah Manu, thank you so much for joining me for this episode of The Abstract here in London. Brilliant. Thanks. Thanks very much for the invite. And to all of our listeners, thanks so much for tuning in.
00:59:02
Speaker
And we hope to see you next time.