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Ep 97: From First Legal Hire to EMEA GC with Volker Weisshaar, Sonos
81 Plays22 days ago
What's it like to be the first European legal hire for a fast-growing tech company? How do you build out a European legal team? And where is the European tech sector headed?
Join Volker Weisshaar, General Counsel EMEA at Sonos, as he talks about establishing and scaling European legal teams for US tech giants NetApp and Sonos, and what it takes to help these companies thrive in the regulation-heavy and culturally diverse landscape of the EU.
Listen as Volker discusses his approaches to hiring at NetApp and Sonos, taking on an operator function and getting your hands dirty as you build a new office, evolving your leadership style in a growing business, key differences between European and US regulations, and much more.
Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-97
Topics
Topics Introduction 0:00
Living and working in Amsterdam: 2:24
Europe’s tech and startup scene: 2:27
What motivated Volker to become a tech lawyer: 3:44
Being the first European legal hire at Sonos and NetApp: 11:10
Approaches to building out a legal team: 14:54
Being a lawyer and an operator: 16:52
Joining Sonos: 19:01
Evolving as a leader: 23:12
Managing your relationship with a global CLO: 26:10"
Differences between US and EU regulations: 28:48
Europe’s start-up scene and regulation: 34:41
Biggest challenges at Sonos: 40:24
Leveraging AI: 44:41
Proudest accomplishments at Sonos: 47:29
Rapid-fire questions: 49:07
Connect with us:
Volker Weisshaar - https://www.linkedin.com/in/volkerweisshaar/
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft
SpotDraft is a leading contract lifecycle management platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues. Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.
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Transcript
US vs Europe Regulatory Landscape
00:00:00
Speaker
Conceptually, and now i'm'm I'm simplifying things a bit. For me, if you look at the regulatory landscape in the US versus Europe, simply put, you could say the US you have less regulation.
00:00:15
Speaker
But the regulation that is out there, some of this is i mean is's being seen as something which is very black and white. mean this day There are certain things where yeah you do totally need to stay away from that. sure I think that is more often the case also because you have fewer regulations.
00:00:31
Speaker
I think in the EU it is different and in Europe in general we're much more regulated. So there's much more regulation out there. So I think for people with the mindset from the US or yeah what they do who are used to how it is in the US, and that's a dialogue you need to have to make them understand that even though we have so much regulation out there, here you need to learn and you need to know which are the ones where you really have to, where there is zero tolerance. They also exist here.
00:01:00
Speaker
But then you have this enormous, vast gray area. And to maneuver that, i think that is, and to help people understand how that works. And I think that's that's an interesting
00:01:15
Speaker
one.
Volker Weissar's Career Journey
00:01:17
Speaker
What's it like to be the first European legal hire for a fast-growing tech company? How do you build out the European legal team?
00:01:27
Speaker
And where is the European tech sector headed? Today, here in Amsterdam, we are joined on the abstract by Volker Weissar, general counsel for EMEA and member of the board of directors at Sonos.
00:01:42
Speaker
Volker's been with Sonos for more than 12 years. That's a pretty good run, helping them grow their business not just in Europe, but Japan as well, I noticed. Before joining Sonos, Volker was in a similar role, general counsel for EMEA and member of the board at NetApp.
00:01:59
Speaker
And at both companies, you were the first legal hire in Europe. Earlier in his career, he spent time working at tech and telecom companies in Switzerland and Germany.
00:02:13
Speaker
going ask you a little bit about why Amsterdam and why the move here. um Volker, thank you so much for joining me today for this episode of The Abstract. Thank you for having me. um Let's actually start there. yeah Yeah. Why
Why Amsterdam Appeals to Tech Companies
00:02:28
Speaker
Amsterdam? And this is there something about the city? Like, why do you think it attracts companies like a Sonos or a NetApp that's thinking about expanding and growing the business in Europe? own Sure. ah Yeah.
00:02:42
Speaker
Why Amsterdam? Firstly, because it's a beautiful city. Yeah. And it's, I think it's, ah it it has the best of all worlds for me because you have ah culturally, with regard to nightlife, music, music,
00:02:59
Speaker
are It is like a big city. It can compete with a lot of big cities. At the same time, it's also actually village. In a sense, it's still small. I mean, Amsterdam is not huge.
00:03:10
Speaker
yeah It's not very hectic. Everything is close. Within 10 to 15 minutes, you get everywhere on the bicycle. I love that. And I love the... um um yeah the the mindset of people in Amsterdam, which I think is very liberal and and open. I think it's also the history of the Netherlands. It welcomed people from everywhere. Everybody was welcome, it didn't matter, in in times when that was really different. um And I think you still feel that. And that, that that I think, is is the main driver.
00:03:44
Speaker
is there I know there's like Booking.com as well. Are you seeing the emergence of more of sort of like a homegrown tech scene here, right? Like VC funding. Yeah.
00:03:55
Speaker
Absolutely. it it has changed actually quite dramatically from my perspective. I would say 10 years ago, for sure, 20 years ago, it was not like that. There were a few ah headquarters of multinational companies which were based in the in the Netherlands and Amsterdam, but that was very limited at the time.
00:04:14
Speaker
yeah wait I think L'Oreal would be a a company, or I can think of, ah I think, Buena Vista, the vi they had their European headquarter here. There were a couple, but you could be you would know them, would like a handful of companies.
00:04:28
Speaker
But now that really has exploded. So, I mean, the Netherlands and Amsterdam attracts a lot of multinationals. Mm-hmm. And to yeah you can just see that in daily life. If I now I live on Fondal Park, if I now walk into Fondal Park with the dog in the morning, it is, i mean, I hear the different accents and different languages from, i mean, everywhere. And that is a big change.
00:04:52
Speaker
So it it really has has has changed. Yeah, spending some time here, I've been surprised, I guess, by how many expats there are or how many folks have even moved here from other countries across Europe, I guess, like like you as well. um it really It really seems like a very multicultural but also kind of like multinational city.
00:05:13
Speaker
Absolutely. And it is a bit different for me in that sense. I am born in Germany, but I did already grow up in the Netherlands. Okay. So... Not so far from here, yeah in ah in a small place ah on the coast, on the Northern Sea.
00:05:28
Speaker
So that's why, yeah, Netherlands for me is is also home in that sense. And what also played a big role in in moving to Amsterdam is that my wife is from Hamburg and for her mentality and... and and and and yeah style I mean, the way daily life in in in Amsterdam is is similar in that sense to Hamburg.
00:05:53
Speaker
So she felt home here also right away.
Volker's Path to Tech Law
00:05:56
Speaker
um Let's talk a little bit about your your career. ah What was it that motivated you to become a lawyer? Very, very good question. Because i when I first started off thinking about that, I actually was i was convinced I wanted to work, want to be educated as a vet.
00:06:13
Speaker
Hmm. um Then ah for a couple of reasons, I changed my mind and then i ah my first studies were economics. ah um And then I bumped into ah group of lawyers um who very quickly convinced me that this is the best thing you can do in life is to be trained as a lawyer.
00:06:35
Speaker
And then I switched and yeah changed to law and I never regretted it. um I think in the end, if I think back, why do I like it so much? I think it is, I love to work with people. In the end, the law is about people.
00:06:51
Speaker
Because it's people that make the law and that apply, that have to live with it. You have to find solutions. And it is something which is plays a role. almost everywhere in soar in society.
00:07:03
Speaker
um so I think that in combination with ah being able in my profession to really work with people from all over the world. You can also have that in other professions, but so for international legal work, I think, yeah, that is really the thing that attracts me.
00:07:20
Speaker
that attracts me Did you always have an interest in technology? um Or was this sort of tech sector, tech law, something that you fell into more?
00:07:31
Speaker
ah i could say I always had it, whereas the beginning is a little bit different and that was not so much ah voluntarily, it was a bit forced upon me. um And that that happened because ah I did not go to ah to a regular Dutch school.
00:07:48
Speaker
I went to one of the European schools. I don't know if you're familiar with that concept. in europe We have a couple of European schools where you have your you the final exam is a European exam that is recognized in the whole European Union.
00:08:00
Speaker
And there was one there a couple of big ones in Belgium and in Luxembourg. And as there's this one small ah European school here where I grew up in Bergen. And at the time, those schools, they have been founded by the European Union. Okay.
00:08:15
Speaker
And they have they originated from um the first ah corporations within the European Union, which was on steel and then on on science and nuclear energy. Interesting.
00:08:27
Speaker
Interesting. Because of that, they were very much ah orientated towards ah science. Sure. And at the time when I was there, ah you actually only had two choices. you There were two sections.
00:08:40
Speaker
That was the only choice you could make. You either have the language section or the science section. And it was also very traditional, almost all the boys were in the science section.
00:08:52
Speaker
I think I'm actually more a language person. ahha So I ended up there. So for me, i met the the major topics and were were physics, mathematics, biology, chemistry.
00:09:03
Speaker
At the time I yeah sometimes was not so happy with that but I started and grew, i mean started to enjoy it and to like and I think since that I have have an affinity with ah with science and with technology.
00:09:18
Speaker
I think that's how it all started and then Yeah, my first serious job was in telecommunication. From there i went into IT and so on, but then always in technology.
00:09:29
Speaker
um Yeah, and I do, I feel very um comfortable ah in in getting things done together with people who have a technical background, with engineers. Sure.
00:09:42
Speaker
I like that. yeah And I like to learn from them. I like to really get deep as as far as I can to really have a good understanding of how technology works. And yeah and since then, I couldn't imagine a doing anything really as something totally different anymore.
00:09:59
Speaker
With Sonos, I mean, it's hardware too, which is very cool. Do you enjoy that
Building Legal Teams at NetApp and Sonos
00:10:03
Speaker
aspect of it, like the opportunity to work not just with sort of software engineers, but folks who are actually building, you know, physical things, devices? Absolutely. Yes.
00:10:12
Speaker
No, of course, that too. That is also that is fascinating for me with Sonos because there you have both. Sonos produces hardware, ah but at the core, the founders of Sonos are software people.
00:10:24
Speaker
Yeah. Which I think is also one of the reasons why Sonos is so successful because it has a very ah it has a solid ah unified platform which makes that all the products talk to each other. They're all intelligent. You don't have to think about that. It doesn't matter which product you buy at Sonos, they all communicate with each other. can be bundled, unbundled, stereo paired and so on.
00:10:47
Speaker
So, yeah, it's both. And yeah, I like both. Sometimes I think back at my time and at NetApp and think how wonderful it actually is to just have a pure software product.
00:11:00
Speaker
Because everything related and around hardware and logistics is always a nightmare. It's so complex and so difficult, but it's it's interesting at the same time.
00:11:10
Speaker
ah I'm a big fan of Sonos. I have a number of – I have like one of the sound bars under my tv I have a couple of the speakers in my living room and in my kitchen. um Yeah. they They really are great products actually. Good to hear.
00:11:25
Speaker
Yeah. um What's it like being ah first let let's just talk a little bit about sort of your journey with NetApp and your journey with Sonos both places you were the first European legal hire you know what's it like to step into that that role what's your experience been there?
00:11:43
Speaker
I think um one of the characteristics is that ah you really have to like, if you do that, you really have to like to just, I mean, get your hands dirty and just whatever that needs to be supported, that you really do that and dive into it.
00:12:01
Speaker
And i like I like that because i believe as in-house counsel, the only chance to be really good is that you have a very deep understanding of the organization. But in any aspect, you need to really understand how the business works, how is the money, and where do you make and how do you make the money, what are the what are the factors that really influence your business. You need to understand the logistics, the operations, the financial aspect, just everything.
00:12:30
Speaker
And if you join at an early stage, like in that scenario, um you have to do that,
Volker's Leadership Philosophy
00:12:37
Speaker
so but there's also the chance to do it. So and that's I think that for me, is that that plays a big role.
00:12:42
Speaker
And I also like this scenario where... um Yeah, you really, if you do that, also at the moment, you you start hiring people and to grow, but you already have basically seen more or less everything and done everything in the company who with regard to the legal support of whatever the activities are.
00:13:05
Speaker
And that for me is ah is is a nice way to really then also start building and growing a team. Mm-hmm. Because that really you puts in a position that allows you to really lead by example.
00:13:19
Speaker
he can read which And I very strongly believe into that. I think in modern organizations this is becoming even more and more important and I think that's the belief that this is a very good way to also grow a team rather than you know from the background. I mean that also part is of the game that you need to help people to grow and to lead and to work together.
00:13:42
Speaker
But if you can lead by example, I think that that has a very it helps a lot to build a strong rapport and camaraderie within the team. think those are a bit the factors that influenced those decisions to join at an early stage.
00:13:58
Speaker
How big are the teams that you've built, respectively, at both NetApp and Sonos? At NetApp, we had a team of around 30 lawyers. Oh, wow.
00:14:11
Speaker
And I have to say, NetApp was a bit special. I did not only lead that team, but at... NetApp also built a commercial function which we call D-Lifecycle Management. This was another team of 30 people which were and mix of economists and engineers.
00:14:28
Speaker
And there the the role of of that team was to prepare all large proposals ah with all the elements, financial, legal, technical, apart from the pricing.
00:14:39
Speaker
We did not do that. That was were the commercial teams. But it was a yeah a commercial operational function. Sonos were much leaner and meaner. Sonos now in Europe we're five. So that's ah that's ah that's a small What's the approach that you take to to building out a legal team here? Like what what do you look for? um Who do you feel like the first or second hire really needs to be?
00:15:06
Speaker
How do you motivate people to come and join you and get excited about building something Yeah. think in – ah i think in in in To build a team like this um and where at that stage when people start joining,
00:15:25
Speaker
um it is still is pretty much such that, yeah, a lot of things are not very organized and not structured. So you still have a bit of of that startup way of doing things and then you get into the phase where you, yeah,
00:15:41
Speaker
The company as such, you could could the comparison would still behave a bit like a child and you need to be become a young adult and have to be a bit more organized and have to think a bit more about the future and how you communicate in a different way, things like that.
00:15:55
Speaker
So I think, I mean, my my experience is that this mostly suits a lot. ah Those people have a very strong customer focus.
00:16:07
Speaker
I think that's the mentality in that environment helps a lot where whatever is being thrown at you, that you try to find a solution that, of course, applies to all in-house counsel. But I think there it's even more extreme um that your colleagues really experience and have the feeling in the sense that ah the lawyers, they really try everything.
00:16:30
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And if they ever hear a no, that should be so rare that if they get a no, that they accept it. yeah So that they think, okay, if this person says no, I believe it.
00:16:43
Speaker
It must be no because I hardly ever hear it because they always try to find a way. So i think that type of mentality, I think, is is plays a very big role. I like to ask my guests, and and you offered a great example here, about um experiences that they've had sort of serving more as like an operator in the business, right? um Not sort of doing just strictly legal work.
00:17:05
Speaker
um Like at NetApp, when you stood up that additional team, how did that come about? Was that an idea that that you had or was that a you know the CEO said, Volker's going to be good at this, he should do this? Or how how does that head did that
Commercial Evolution of Legal Roles
00:17:18
Speaker
happen?
00:17:18
Speaker
no No, nobody said you have to do this. yeah it It happened more in a bit in a different way. there was There was, ah I saw that there was a desire in the business ah that my team takes an even more commercial role.
00:17:34
Speaker
Again, I would still personally always try to be to be really act, I mean, to be very commercially oriented. And the people that I hired were similar. And there were a couple of people on my team also started to think in this way.
00:17:47
Speaker
So it kind of like evolved from within from within the group to the point where I thought, okay, I think we have enough skills, desire, appetite for that. And we're in a very good position ah to play that role.
00:18:03
Speaker
But that's how that's how it evolved. So there was some... There was some need from the business um and there was within the team where people had a desire to to do this. And we felt like that we have been, because this is because we tried to be very, very close to the business, we were in a good position to give also that strategic insight and to help to prepare those bids because we are in negotiation. with were We were really, yeah,
00:18:30
Speaker
but very close to all the different facets, the operational, the financial, legal, and so on. ah Yeah, so that we thought, okay, this this is a good idea. And then, yeah, we got lucky and and actually our CEO loved it.
00:18:43
Speaker
Yeah. I said, yeah, this this is exactly this is exactly what I was looking for. And yeah and did you keep owning that team? over Was it sort of like you incubated it and then you handed it off to someone else? No, while I was NetApp, I owned that part, yeah.
00:18:59
Speaker
Cool. um Where was Sonos when you joined? Because, i mean, 12 and a half, 13 years ago, trying to think of where the product was at that point in time, um what was the business like when you when you joined?
Sonos' Marketing Reluctance
00:19:16
Speaker
When I joined Sonos, to give a bit of an example that maybe helps understand how it was at that time, that was the first time that Sonos started to do real marketing.
00:19:28
Speaker
So it already existed at that time. ah for like, yeah, almost 10 years in the U.S. and maybe five years in Europe.
00:19:40
Speaker
um The founders were still around. um One of the founders was a lawyer, actually, right? Greg Shelburne. Yes, that's the guy who hired me. Yeah.
00:19:51
Speaker
Yeah. And the other one was John McFarlane was the CEO. um Yeah. um So when I joined, ah so that for me was very interesting to to see that because it was still from the founders was still the mentality.
00:20:08
Speaker
Why would we need to do any marketing? Because people... who here, who use the product, they get it. There's no need to do marketing. That was an interesting approach.
00:20:20
Speaker
um But it was also great to see. And we joined we we had a great guy who who joined that, who I think just before that, I don't know, you know, the maybe the brand Silverquick.
00:20:31
Speaker
No, what is that? Quicksilver. Oh, Quicksilver. Oh, sure, yeah, Quicksilver. Yeah, yeah. He's the guy who made that, turned that into a real great brand. um So with a very ah ah commercially consumer-focused marketing, that was a bit new to Sonos because Sonos was still, I mean, yeah, with, I mean,
00:20:54
Speaker
technical with bit of an engineering engineering approach. The idea we built the best products that should be good enough. um Yeah, and from a mentality of otherwise otherwise and how people work, yeah, was still... Yeah, that there there was hardly...
00:21:12
Speaker
I mean, the belief of the people still was, and I think that's good to keep that as ah as ah as a kind of like a normal star. We don't want to run, there was a strong, ah how should I say, bias to say, we don't want to run a company with policies. That's not how we work.
00:21:27
Speaker
We want to hire the best people. that can just cope with any situation and we we take it from there and then we can just build the basis and so on, but not work with policies and a lot of approval processes. Sure.
00:21:41
Speaker
So that was... Bureaucracy. Yes, exactly. And that was that was good. I think that's that's that that's great, but also sometimes challenging because people started to realize things just change if you get bigger. It starts with communication.
00:21:55
Speaker
Sure. You have bigger teams, You will not always see people in the hallway or at lunch or whatever. You need to start communicating in a different way. um But that for me is exactly the phase that I really, that's that's the phase I like the most, where you can really start to do things a bit differently.
00:22:15
Speaker
and then the art is, I think it's more an art than a science, and not to kill this entrepreneurial mindset. Mm-hmm. Because you will always lose people on the journey. For some people at some point who initially thought, oh, young company, successful, growing like crazy. I must always love that.
00:22:34
Speaker
But also some of those people at some point it gets too much. Right. They say, this is not my company
Adapting to Growth at Sonos
00:22:40
Speaker
anymore. right it's it's I can't have that for misery, too bureaucratic and so on, or there's too much change. For once, give me like six months and just let me get something finished in six months and don don't change it all the time.
00:22:54
Speaker
So, um yeah, that that those are ah that's a bit how that how that game go that you find a way how to maneuver through that. um Yeah, and I think that's really that for me, that's if I think back of all the different jobs, that phase for me always is the one that I like the best.
00:23:13
Speaker
Do you feel like you've had to sort of evolve as a leader in the business as the business has grown? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
00:23:25
Speaker
i I think when I was younger, i always believed, you know, if if if you do the right thing and if you and and the the people that you work with, if you know, if you ah always show them respect and have empathy and help them if they need you, which I still think is is a core piece, ah that's it.
00:23:47
Speaker
If you start to work with larger teams, even more diverse teams, that's also challenging, right? I mean, we'll say these were virtual teams where we had people basically at NetApp all over the world.
00:23:58
Speaker
That makes it tougher. You need more discipline in communicating. You still need to be even more open-minded how things do, things in the different parts of the world. um Yeah, I've learned that you, ah first of all, there's no way around...
00:24:15
Speaker
tough conversations they just need to happen when I was younger I thought
00:24:21
Speaker
Why? I mean, it will not be needed. People will get it and if we understand each other and we all have the same goal. But I learned that. And I have to say that was so that was difficult for me. One of the the things, i learned a lot about it. And also, I did read a lot about this topic and i was was fascinated to in the research from Harvard Business Review, whatever you always say, they say that 67% of the managers try to avoid the tough conversations.
00:24:51
Speaker
And I at the time also thought of myself, I thought I'm really bad at it because I also saw it with me behavior where try to avoid it or kind of like drag it out and yeah to just see you are next week we're also good enough, we'll be good enough, this is not the right moment.
00:25:08
Speaker
But I learned to in the end have those conversations. And it was also learning curve because if I look back and I always make notes of of of all these conversations, ah I look back and I thought, oh my goodness, this is really horrible the way I did that. and But because I understood it it it is so important and I started to learn or to see that it also improved the relationship I had with the people that I work with because of those conversations. So there's a bit of pain you sometimes have to go through Yes.
00:25:40
Speaker
And don't get me wrong, I don't mean anything where you kind of like have these, you hear these stories where people or managers have a culture where they, I don't know, once a month, they have a conversation with somebody the team where they kind of like really destroy them and do things. yeah That's not what I'm talking about. No, I I think that it has to be the in the right way with respect and everything. But the things that don't work have to come to the surface and need to be discussed. So that's for me one of the big, the biggest I think it's one of the biggest learnings.
00:26:09
Speaker
um One of the things I was curious to ask you a little bit about is how you manage the sort of relationship with the GC who might be abroad,
Navigating EU Regulations
00:26:19
Speaker
right? Or who's looking looking globally, but maybe is like a little more U.S. focused because that's where they are um Like, how do you get that right? I'm sure i'm sure there's not an easy answer there, but but I am curious about that because you want to run sort of Europe independently in some ways.
00:26:38
Speaker
There's also probably a corollary here, right? If you're like the general manager for a continent, for a company, or, you know, a president of a business in a region. yeah Right. No, of course. I mean, first of all, I have to say I've been, at least that's how I feel it, I've been very lucky always in that respect. was, in the end, had a a situation where the relationship with the with the with the global chief legal officer was such that it was...
00:27:05
Speaker
a strategic one and combined with lots of support, empathy, trust, ah which I think is the right way. And and and to yeah, I have to say for me, that was always possible. In the end, i always had that type of relationship where um that we work together in a way it was really to to to really talk about what is the strategy, where do we want to go and also so what is the strategy to build a team and what are the skills that we want to have in-house, what do we have that we buy from outside.
00:27:41
Speaker
um
00:27:44
Speaker
Yeah, and and yeah how how how do you get there? um Of course, it has to come from both sides. I think if, if if if if so to say, my chief legal officer globally ah has to trust and sees that we that we have things under the control, that ah ah the feedback from the business is, well, we get the right support from these people, we're really happy with the with with how they do the work.
00:28:11
Speaker
ah I think yeah that brings you far, i mean that you really get gets you far very far because ah then you can yeah you can really focus on on on on not so much on the and on the daily stuff, the nitty gritty things, you can focus on and the bigger topics. um Yeah, I think that's that's probably the the most important part that you have that that there is ah there's the trust that you need for that and then yeah the rest more or less comes a bit automatically, I think.
00:28:48
Speaker
when i um When I think about, let's say, an American company hiring, building out a team in Europe, um hiring lawyers here on the ground, and one of the things that I think is so important about or so necessary for having that is – navigating this sort of unique regulatory environment here um and also navigating some of the cultural aspects of that regulatory environment. Does that make sense? Yeah. Right?
00:29:18
Speaker
um In the same way that you know if you're going to go and spend time in Washington, D.C., like you might want someone who's actually worked with the staff at the FTC or at the SEC or depending on who your regulator Right.
00:29:30
Speaker
um Yeah, I mean, to what extent has that been a big part of of your career and um and and your time helping businesses like NetApp and Sonos grow here?
00:29:41
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's actually quite interesting one because conceptually, and now i'm i'm I'm simplifying things a bit, for me, if you look at the regulatory landscape in the versus Europe, simply put, you could say in the U.S. s you have less regulation. Mm-hmm.
00:29:58
Speaker
ah But the regulation that is out there, some of this is i mean it's being seen as something which is very black and white. There are certain things where you dot totally need to stay away from that.
00:30:11
Speaker
sure I think that is more often the case also because you have fewer regulations. I think in the EU it is different and in Europe in general we're much more regulated. So there's much more regulation out there.
00:30:22
Speaker
So I think for people with the mindset from the US or who are used to how it is in the US, um And that's a dialogue you need to have to make them understand that even though we have so much regulation out there, here you need to learn and you need to know which are the ones where you really have to, where there is zero tolerance. They also exist here.
00:30:44
Speaker
But then you have this enormous, vast gray area. And to maneuver that, i think that is, and to help people understand how that works. And I think that's that's an interesting one, because I've seen different types of behavior. yeah i've I've had colleagues from the US, you then said, yeah, well, I don't get it, Volker. You're telling me there's all these regulations out there, but actually I have the impression Basically, you can ignore lots of them because you if if if if if if you violate those rules, well, nothing really happens. yeah
00:31:18
Speaker
And that, of course, is not the case. It's more much more differentiated. but So that I think that's a very important learning from both sides to to kind of like to help each other to understand how you maneuver that. Yeah.
00:31:36
Speaker
Apart from that, ah i overallval it's it's it's I think this is also a very good question because I think that is conceptually is a challenge which is getting in Europe, at least in the phase we're in now, it's getting more and more difficult. And it's it's it's it's it's it's it's a big task for in-house teams, this horizon scanning.
00:31:58
Speaker
Yes. Because it is super tough. I mean, if you ok if you have unlimited budgets, but nobody has that, but if you have huge budgets, you could say, okay, well, we outsource that to outside counsel, to law firms, and we want them to monitor that and then ah let us know if something is on the horizon we should be watching out for.
00:32:19
Speaker
That is extremely expensive. Yeah. Because in a lot of those technical areas, if we talk about product compliance and technology, The law firms also don't really do that because what they then do, they have ah young or senior associates to start going and reading through all these EU directives and regulations at an hourly tariff of 300 or 500 euros.
00:32:42
Speaker
That is insane. Yeah. And then, honestly, very often they will not even be a super expert on it either. Right. So that that makes it very difficult. um And I'm actually, that's, if we think about AI, that's one I'm thinking about a lot.
00:32:57
Speaker
To what extent AI can help? And I think AI can help, but it's not, I think at the moment, it's not of the most prominent and best use cases. Because if you think about it, ah that even with AI is still challenging because a lot of the information will not be available digitally.
00:33:14
Speaker
Right. And if you don't have the data, That also, i mean, then AI is not working. So this this is a big challenge. And I think today, i mean, the way we maneuver through this is is a mix of of things. We try to be connected, which I think is a great source for that and help people Those industry associations, they're mostly very good at that. Sure.
00:33:35
Speaker
And they are informed and then you you can try and and see what they can do for you. Some of these engineering organizations like ah in Europe, you have this German one, TUV, TUF. Mm-hmm.
00:33:48
Speaker
They're also actually quite active in the US. They can help you. You can say, look, these are the products we have. Those are the rules that we know of today that regulate those products. You have to give us alerts if something is happening there.
00:34:00
Speaker
Then you try to kind of like ah squeeze a bit of, ah so to say, free advice from you from your main legal providers, from the law firms. Sure. But it's it it is very challenging.
00:34:13
Speaker
And that, if if you think about what, is something which could make me nervous or you know make me keep me from sleeping at night is is this one. Because in the US, we know at the moment, they're a bit hyperactive.
00:34:29
Speaker
I think from my perspective, I think they go a bit too far. ah But it is what it is. So um it's yeah it's it's it's not an easy one. There's no easy, simple answer.
00:34:41
Speaker
Do you have a perspective personally, like not on behalf of Sonos do you have a perspective on um how the startup scene is evolving in Europe and this question
Impact of Regulation on Startups
00:34:53
Speaker
of regulation? i mean, this is something that you hear a lot in the United States, of course, which is like, you know.
00:34:59
Speaker
europe has so said that the their sort of like regulatory scheme here is so all-encompassing that it's burdensome to businesses right and i think there's also there's a very different social compact here between the government and the people than in the u.s and so if you don't understand that or if you're not willing to sort of understand that you're kind of no You know, you're sort of prejudging this.
00:35:21
Speaker
um I understand that piece. Right. um But, yeah, you're actually here. I'm curious whether or not you you agree with that characterization that like the regulatory environment is stifling, say, like venture backed companies. Or that's one of the reasons why ah Berlin or an Amsterdam or a Paris or a London is not quite yet at the level of like ah Silicon Valley, let's say.
00:35:46
Speaker
Yeah. It's a big question. Yeah, no, of course. no it is No, for sure, it plays a role. I think we yeah we can say that. I do not know if it how big the impact is. There is an impact, and my personal opinion is that EU is overdoing it at the moment. I think they they're overreacting.
00:36:07
Speaker
There's too much focus on privacy and and intellectual property, and and i I think it is good. We need to keep that on the radar for sure. um But um at the same time, I actually do think that that something else probably is the reason ah for having a totally different landscape in the U.S. And that, I think, is this really unique ecosystem that that has been developed in the U.S. Mm-hmm.
00:36:33
Speaker
between between the academic world, the financial world and the and and and the industry. who i don't think that it's... I mean, and and not it's not it's not a coincidence that the US in that sense is is so extremely successful in technology space.
00:36:53
Speaker
That is something that ah that does not exist in that way yet in Europe. And we have a startup scene. I think Amsterdam is is is developing and in in a nice way. There's a lot going on here with a bit maybe more focus on fintech than on other tech.
00:37:09
Speaker
But Berlin and is also good. It's playing a bigger role. I think purely in numbers. I think Berlin is the biggest startup scene in that sense in Europe today.
00:37:21
Speaker
But it's nice to see that also Paris, France is francis back, right? And also if you think about AI with Mistral, the large language model, there there's a lot going on there. But I think this U.S. ecosystem and the whole mentality around that, and I find that fascinating always because, I mean, I've worked with companies in California for Many, many, many years and and and and i lot of my friends and colleagues also within my family, ah people are ah building startups in in in in the technology space.
00:37:55
Speaker
It's always fascinating to see that in the US, the moment there is something where there where there's a slightest chance that this could develop into something. you have this extremely powerful system that, you know, kind like kickstarts that.
00:38:11
Speaker
And it's it's it's it's fascinating. if I mean, if you ok you think about Y Combinator, surery and they're not the only ones, the other ones too, but the way they do that um and also this mindset of that this in the beginning is about investing in people and how they do that and they kind of like give these people the...
00:38:30
Speaker
help them in doing that and train them and and that is that is really unique and that's something We don't have here. It's coming. And and then again, but it's mostly, I mean, it's also, I mean, U.S. s companies that come over.
00:38:43
Speaker
mean, Antler, to talk, give an example. You see that they're really coming over to Europe and are being very active. So, but still, as such in Europe, we don't we we don't have that in place.
00:38:56
Speaker
The financing and the way people invest and how they think about it, I think, People are generally still much more risk adverse. um That plays a big role. I think the way things have been financed, I think we're catching up in Europe now. I think the way Y Combinator is doing this is starting to become a model.
00:39:17
Speaker
Yep. Which I think is also a good development, but I think that also plays a role in what's going on in the US. s I have been working with venture capital ah long time ago, and it at that time it was done in ah in in a much different way.
00:39:32
Speaker
It was, I think the way it's being done now, it it
00:39:38
Speaker
creates even more incentive for people to start something new because it's being financed in a much more flexible and I think in a fairer way and a better distribution about, I mean, right ah risk and and and and and and reward.
00:39:53
Speaker
So in that sense, I don't know if that answers your question, but... um Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that we, we we again, there's there's, I think there's too much regulation. I personally think that, um and we still don't have um a good way to bring those those main stakeholders to really bring them together.
00:40:14
Speaker
I think there's still too much friction or it all takes too long. It's a thing that keeps us just still, I mean, staying behind substantially. Yeah, it feels like there's maybe more opportunity, though, as you're alluding to, than there might have been 10 years ago.
00:40:32
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. like an awareness, maybe also an awareness that... maybe also an awareness that um If you've been somewhat lagging behind for 10 or 20, like did that more investment is needed and governments need to focus on this and need to focus on having homegrown tech companies. And right. Yeah.
00:40:56
Speaker
It seems like there's more of a focus on this maybe now than there was. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. A couple more questions for you about sort of your your journey with Sonos.
00:41:07
Speaker
I guess what's what's been sort of the most um challenging issue that you've had to tackle or what's been most challenging about um about building and leading the team?
00:41:19
Speaker
I think the the most challenging for leading the team and building and growing the team ah was to find a good way um
00:41:31
Speaker
yeah of getting all the work done, supporting the business in a smart way, and at the same time just always keeping it interesting for everybody. yeah I think that is that probably is structurally a challenge for all in-house teams. Yeah.
00:41:47
Speaker
But if i look if you look at the company of Sonos, at that size and just also still moving quite fast. So you need you need strong focus. There is no way around it. So there's ah there's a kind of like autoutum automatically you get a process where people get more and more specialized and focus on narrow but always more narrow area of law and and and business what they that they support.
00:42:16
Speaker
And i my observation is and belief is ah In a scenario like at Sonos, you have to find a way that people also still have the possibility to just do new stuff and to do something different.
00:42:31
Speaker
But that's not so easy because ah it's not large it's not a large team. Sonos is not a small organization anymore, but it's not you know it's not it's not like or like Uber. It's a different size. So you don't have – there are fewer opportunities to just – you cannot just say, oh, why didn't you just know join the legal team in Japan for half a year and do something different? There's no legal time team in Japan.
00:42:55
Speaker
ah So we always needed to find a way where um we can collaborate in a way that people structurally have the possibility, if they want to,
00:43:07
Speaker
to work in a totally different area. And the way we try to do that is to keep each other kind of like informed about what's going on. So we're just trying to find a good way where we get together and people talk about what they do so that you know what is going on. And then if there's something that you find interesting that we also enable them to say, i mean, to give a concrete example that you would say,
00:43:31
Speaker
that a lawyer in the US would support a deal that is going on in Europe. So would have a lawyer who's not qualified, mean, it could be a deal in France, that's a lawyer who's not qualified in French law, under French law, but would be able to do that because we have created a system where if they wanted to, they could already have learned enough about that so that they could also at some point in time jump in and take over the negotiation with the French or European lawyer in the background and yeah doing a sanity check and things like that.
00:44:06
Speaker
And I think this is also a way we need to evolve. If you really think further, and further in my mind, if you think about AI and how the law is going to evolve, I think we're going to have kind of like some really truly global law to some
Future of Global Law and AI
00:44:20
Speaker
extent. I think that's going to happen.
00:44:22
Speaker
um I think this is even more important. so But that is dad has been a challenge or is a challenge, but also it's, yeah, it's also an opportunity. But it's it's it's it's it's quite difficult to do that. And then technology, I think, is helping us with this now because you can collaborate in a much, in a very different way.
00:44:41
Speaker
Have you started to leverage ai on your legal team or do you see a lot of potential there, even if it's not something you're using all the time today? i mean, I personally use it all the time. i use it every day, but it's not in that sense. Sonos has not really deployed a lot of AI tools.
00:45:00
Speaker
I mean, we we we we work with the with the with the Google suite, which also has AI. Sure. so And that that helps in in in in working together in a more efficient way.
00:45:11
Speaker
i think the potential is is is is big. But again, i think it's always important you need to look at very concretely what are what are the tools or what are the capabilities of AI that really ah give you a real boost.
00:45:31
Speaker
And that is very much different really from company to company, I think. Because it's it's actually, I find it fascinating. There are a lot of things which are very common. I mean, you have challenges with the with contract management or with knowledge management, with the regulatory landscape, all those kind of things.
00:45:50
Speaker
But then again, each company has its very own way of how you do things. And for I think it's like with any other software deployment, you really need to think about that very carefully. You need to really understand what are the workflows and what are the decision-making mechanisms in your organization to be sure that the AI tool you think about is really going to help you.
00:46:15
Speaker
Because my personal experience is, very often, most cases, those deployments actually are not super successful. So that doesn't mean that you should not do it.
00:46:27
Speaker
But I think so, that's the approach we have been we we we have been taking at Sonos where say, okay, before we do this, it's very tempting to say, okay, we're going to buy this wonderful suite for the lifecycle management and then you have everything and then everything will be so wonderful.
00:46:42
Speaker
And then the second thought of it is, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, but actually what of this are we really going to be using? And and and what what exactly are we trying to achieve with this? we want to make the lawyers happier, that they feel like they have more data, or actually is it the salespeople, or what does finance think about it? So in that sense, I think...
00:47:06
Speaker
Yeah, it's still, this is still, those fundamentals are still very important. But ah no, I'm absolutely convinced. I mean, AI already plays a role today. It's more on a collaboration side, but I think it it will become more and more important for all the different aspects of the business.
00:47:27
Speaker
Absolutely. What are you ah most proud of having accomplished over your time at Sonos? I think that that that probably is um the setup of and of defining a a new model of how we distribute the products.
00:47:47
Speaker
I mean, Sonos works with a lot of distributors and retailers, thousands in the EMEA region. Mm-hmm. And the distribution model there is um is somewhat complex because we have to navigate through the quite challenging and complicated you competition law challenges.
00:48:12
Speaker
So how you set up that distribution network, um that is quite challenging. And... ah Yeah, I'm actually proud of the the model that we developed. So the legal team was the one who triggered really ah a new selective distribution model where we um made use of the new developments. have been some new developments in the European Union, which opened some ah more flexibility on how you work together with regard to online sales and e-commerce.
00:48:47
Speaker
So, and we really... designed a new model ah and rolled that out and changed the rules around it So, yeah, completely completely new setup.
00:49:02
Speaker
Yeah, that's something i'm i'm yeah I'm actually quite proud of. I've got a few of my traditional closing questions for you ah that I think are kind of fun. um The first one is what's your favorite part of your day-to-day? The call with the team on on on Monday. Uh-huh.
00:49:26
Speaker
to two two first to just chat and see how everybody is is is is doing and then ah starting to strategize about what are the what are the priorities for the week, what are the priorities for the next six months. the and That's something that gives me lots of energy.
00:49:44
Speaker
Do you have a professional pet peeve? I think it is ah the scenario where I'm in a meeting, and could be any type of meeting, and I have the impression that people that have something to say are not being heard.
00:50:03
Speaker
that I think that is something that kind of like, it that really makes me mad. It's a bit of a thing I have. How do you fix that? I mean, if if I have the the possibility, I will address it directly.
00:50:15
Speaker
yeah I would say, I think I heard Joanna or Mark say, but and it just somehow didn't, it got lost. we We didn't pick it up at all.
00:50:27
Speaker
And I think it would be, let's hear a bit more about it. Yeah. That's a good one. I like that one. ah Do you have a favorite book or a book that you would recommend to our audience? It doesn't have to be a business book. I just think it's interesting to hear about what people are reading.
00:50:46
Speaker
That's difficult, I have to say. I have and have a and have an ambivalent relationship with with these business yeah books. I like them also. I read them. But then i also have these phases where i'm I've had enough. I feel like, okay, no, this is too much. Yeah.
00:51:05
Speaker
If I should have to choose It doesn't have to be a business book, too. It could be. Oh, it could be. It could be, yeah could have yeah. Anything interesting that you've read recently? ah Yes, then I have one, and that is ah Philosophy and Life.
00:51:21
Speaker
Hmm. from an English author, i think he's an Oxford professor for philosophy and this this is yeah it's a pretty thick ah book, so not but he he writes about philosophy in a very ah entertaining, modern, light way, but it gives you really the fundamentals of philosophy and then building on that goes through into different areas and about the crucial question of philosophy what does it mean to lead a good life who and then you can apply that in in in in all ah i mean different ways that you're interested in and i find that fascinating and also what i love about phil philosophy is
00:52:06
Speaker
philosophy is the one that gives you, I mean, you have to complete clean sheet, right? You have the liberty to think about anything in any way you want. h That is, and I think that is so refreshing and you can apply that to whatever you want to.
00:52:21
Speaker
That's great. That's a great recommendation. ah My last question for you, my traditional closing question for guests, it's if you could think back on your days as a young lawyer, just getting started, ah something that you know now that you wish that you'd known back then.
00:52:43
Speaker
i think that is the phenomenon that
00:52:48
Speaker
Not everybody in any situation always thinks that the lawyer in the team or in the discussion
00:53:00
Speaker
actually only wants to help and find a solution and get it done. Mm-hmm. There I think it was naive as a young lawyer. I thought that people, they would know that this is how I am, that's why I'm here, and then had to learn that there were people had totally different assumptions. I thought, oh, there's there's this annoying, stupid lawyer killing everything, whereas I was trying to be devil's advocate, for example. But that is something where today, if I do that, I say, just to be devil's advocate, yeah I support your case, we want to get to the best solution, but to do that, I just ask you a few annoying questions.
00:53:36
Speaker
That, I think, is ah it's a major learning. ah This has been really great, Volker. Thank you so much for joining me here for this episode of The Abstract. Well, thank you. And to all of our listeners, thank you so much for tuning in. And we hope to see you next time.