In this episode of The Abstract, Tyler Finn is joined by Tina Hwang, Head of Legal at ClassDojo, whose career spans Google, WhatsApp, Ancestry, and Twitter. She built a career by staying curious, stepping outside her remit, and proactively solving legal and product challenges. She talks about starting out as a commercial attorney, finding her way into privacy and regulatory strategy, and how she learned to lead initiatives without being asked. Tina also shares actionable advice for junior and senior lawyers on navigating career growth, finding the right environments, and redefining legal’s value in cross-functional teams.

Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-110   

Topics
Introduction – 00:00
Finding fit in the legal profession: from courts to Google—01:05
Discovering the business side of legal at Google—04:56
From Google to WhatsApp: chasing the excitement of building —07:20
Scaling the legal team at WhatsApp: lessons in hiring and growth – 10:44
Leadership evolution: from problem solver to team developer – 13:46
Mindful management: a four-part framework for legal leaders – 18:54
Evaluating new opportunities: people, trust, and executive chemistry – 22:00
Building the legal function from scratch at ClassDojo – 25:42
People, process, tech: where to start when scaling legal—28:26
Metrics that matter: proving legal’s impact to the business – 33:10
Hiring for adaptability and stage-fit in legal teams – 42:21
Rapid-fire Questions – 49:32  

Connect with us:
Tina Hwang - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tina-hwang-a9556a19/
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft   

SpotDraft is a leading contract lifecycle management platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues. Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.

Ep 110: From Product Counsel to Privacy Leader: Tina Hwang’s Journey

What’s on the bookshelf of today’s top legal leaders? In this special bonus episode, host Tyler Finn asks general counsels, founders, and legal innovators one simple question: What book would you recommend to our listeners?

From legal thrillers to leadership classics, personal growth memoirs to spiritual texts — the answers are as wide-ranging as the roles these leaders play. Hear how books like Give and Take, The Culture Code, Ikigai, The Hard Thing About Hard Things, and 100 Saturdays have helped shape how these professionals think, lead, and live.

Whether you're looking for your next business read or something more soul-stirring, this episode is your perfect reading list.

Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-109   

Topics
Introduction: 00:00
Rob Chesnut, Former GC and CEO at Airbnb, on writing a book that started as a dinner-table idea: 00:33
Dana Rao, Former GC & CTO, Adobe, on falling for fiction through Here One Moment by Liane Moriarty: 05:52
Shashank Bijapur, Co-Founder & CEO, SpotDraft, on how Zero to One and The Hard Thing About Hard Things guided his transition from lawyer to founder: Akshay Verma, COO at SpotDraft, on the leadership lessons from Getting Naked: 07:07
Tim Hirsch, GC of Mars Science & Diagnostics, on the untold Holocaust history in 100 Saturdays: 08:48
Manu Kanwar, Founder and CEO, LexSolutions, on trauma, ADHD, and human flourishing: 11:17
Alex Herrity, Director of Global Legal Solutions, Adidas, on contract design and building a second brain: 14:52
Keita de Souza, GC at Ryse, on Likable Badass and redefining influence: 17:00
David Cowen, President at The Cowen Group, on how books shape leadership and connection: 19:33
Joon Park, Chief Legal Officer at Extend Enterprises, Inc., on the spiritual depth of the Tao Te Ching and his wife's Pulitzer-winning biography: 21:14
Tyler Finn, Head of Community & Growth at SpotDraft, on books that shaped his values, legal curiosity, and political awareness: 23:01    

Connect with us:
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft

SpotDraft is a leading contract lifecycle management platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues. Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.

Ep 109: Books That Stay With You: Legal Leaders Share Their Shelf

What happens when a former law firm CMO and Uber’s head of legal ops pulls back the curtain on the business of law? In this episode, Tyler Finn sits down with Ken Callander, Managing Principal at Value Strategies, to explore the evolution of law firm pricing, the rise of AI, and how in-house teams can save millions by shifting to value-based fee arrangements. From the politics of partnerships to actionable strategies for better outside counsel management, Ken brings unmatched candor and clarity on how legal teams must adapt in a rapidly evolving landscape.   

Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-108   

Topics
Introduction—0:00
How Law Firm Business Models Drive Political Risk-Taking and Brand Fallout – 01:49
Inside the Law Firm Model: Power Partners, Payout Structures, and Why Change is So Hard—09:02
Challenges with hourly billing and how law firm economics are misaligned with client value—16:32
Why Ken left the law firm world for legal ops at Uber—26:34
Moving to value-based pricing and how it impacted Uber’s legal spend—30:10
Why predictability in pricing is often more important than savings—34:21
How AI is disrupting law firm pricing, staffing, and the associate career path—37:33
How In-House Teams Can Improve Law Firm Relationships, Reduce Spend, and Drive Change—49:14
Rapid-fire questions—56:25

Connect with us:
Ken Callander - https://www.linkedin.com/in/kencallander/
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft

SpotDraft is a leading contract lifecycle management platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues. Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.

Ep 108: Reimagining Law Firm Pricing: Ken Callander on Value, AI & In-House Strategy

In this episode of The Abstract, host Tyler Finn sits down with Andrew Epstein, General Counsel of Demandbase, for a candid conversation on building a legal career rooted in curiosity, intentionality, and creative risk-taking. From starting his career in the GC’s office of the Washington Nationals to handling high-stakes spinouts at LiveRamp, Andrew shares how he made bold choices, built trust across functions, and scaled legal teams strategically. He dives deep into building legal ops, leveraging AI thoughtfully, and what it really takes to thrive as a first-time GC. A must-listen for in-house leaders, aspiring GCs, and legal professionals navigating a rapidly evolving legal landscape.

Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-107

Topics
Introduction – 00:00
Andrew’s intentional path to law school and first job at a GC’s office – 02:28
Working for the Washington Nationals and using that experience to stand out – 04:38
Choosing O’Melveny for its cross-office structure and California links – 08:10
From Capital Markets to Privacy: Why Andrew Left Big Law for In-House at LiveRamp – 09:49
Managing complex transactions: M&A, spinout from Axiom, NYSE listing – 17:18
Privacy, Adtech, and Proving Your Value in a Changing Legal Team – 22:04
Getting hired as GC at Demandbase through cross-functional trust – 27:33
Scaling the legal team intentionally for IPO readiness – 29:41
Growing as a first-time GC through peer mentorship – 32:43
Building a lean, flexible team that integrates AI and legal ops – 35:35
Encouraging AI experimentation over shiny tools – 40:08
Rapid-fire Question – 46:04

Connect with us:
Andrew Epstein - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-epstein-3b22a471/
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft

SpotDraft is a leading contract lifecycle management platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues. Visit https://www.spotdraft.com [https://www.spotdraft.com/] to learn more.

Ep 107: From Big Law to GC Before 35: Andrew Epstein’s Journey on Navigating Modern Legal Careers

What does it take to scale a legal team in high-growth environments? In this special bonus episode of The Abstract, we feature insights from five legal leaders who have each helped their organisations scale — and survived the chaos that comes with it.

From building global teams at Carta to laying the legal foundation at early-stage startups, our guests reflect on the personal and professional lessons learned along the way. You’ll hear how legal ops, AI adoption, prioritisation frameworks, and even IKEA furniture assembly play a role in building agile, resilient legal teams. Whether you're the first lawyer in the door or leading a 50-person department, this episode is packed with takeaways for legal professionals navigating scale.

Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-106   

Topics
Introduction - 0:00
April Lindauer, GC at Carta, on scaling legal from 200 to 2000 employees post-Series C – 0:35
Adam Becker, Head of Legal Ops at Cockroach Labs, on building connective legal infrastructure and enabling smarter AI adoption – 2:42
David Cowen, Founder of The Cowen Group, on legal ops maturity and leading in the age of AI agents – 4:54
Tommie Tavares-Ferreira, Chief Strategy Officer, Lawtrades, on aligning legal priorities with business impact and enabling cross-functional trust – 8:52
Jordan Hatcher, Co-Founder & CLO/COO, The Grid, on scaling legal internationally and staying grounded through hypergrowth – 14:11

Connect with us:
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft

SpotDraft is a leading contract lifecycle management platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues. Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.

Ep 106: Scaling Legal at Speed – Lessons from Carta, Cockroach Labs, and More

What if the legal system punishes the victim instead of the attacker? That question drives Andy Lunsford, founder and CEO of BreachRx, to rethink how companies prepare for and respond to data breaches.

In this episode, Andy joins host Tyler Finn to share his journey from litigation consultant to legal tech entrepreneur—and why he believes incident response should be treated like any other core business process. Separating privileges from factual records to rethinking executive liability, Andy offers practical insights for legal counsels navigating a regulatory maze, rising risk, and increasing accountability.

Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-105   

Topics
Introduction – 00:00
Andy’s path into privacy law: From philosophy to shaping early FTC breach cases—02:07
The shift from rare black swan breaches to everyday business risk—6:19
How GDPR’s 72-hour rule changed incident response expectations – 08:54
Founding Beacon Group: bridging litigation, incident response, and expert testimony—13:53
The law punishes victims: why breach response is legally broken—16:53
Defending the defenders: Mental toll and leadership under breach pressure—21:00
Personal Risk in Cybersecurity: Why CISOs and Legal Leaders Need Protection Too – 22:48
How GCs Can Prepare for Breaches: Building Systems, Not Just Plans—27:28
Rising executive accountability: how GCs can protect their teams and companies—32:23
From legal consultant to tech CEO: building BreachRx as a category-defining platform—34:49
The challenge of early-market education and building industry standards—40:52
Rapid-fire Questions—42:35  

Connect with us:
Andy Lunsford - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andersonlunsford/
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft   

SpotDraft is a leading contract lifecycle management platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues. Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.

Ep 105: Punishing the Victim: What’s Broken in Cybersecurity Law

In this episode of The Abstract, host Tyler Finn is joined by Joon Park, Chief Legal Officer at Extend Enterprises, Inc., for a candid conversation about building a legal career defined by integrity, adaptability, and curiosity.   

From navigating the collapse of Refco early in his career to leading legal at high-growth fintech companies, Joon shares how high-pressure moments shaped his risk mindset and leadership style. He unpacks why startups need legal guidance from day one, how to embed compliance without slowing down, and why modern legal counsel must be both partner and protector. Along the way, Joon reflects on finding purpose, embracing uncertainty, and staying curious through every chapter.   

Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-104   

Topics
Introduction - 00:00
Early career influences: philosophy, parenting, and curiosity - 01:54
Holistic thinking and law as systems navigation – 05:00
Transitioning from Big Law to in-house for financial security – 07:01
Refco collapse: a crash course in legal ethics and resilience – 10:35
Risk mindset: documenting decisions and staying aligned – 14:05
Generalist vs. specialist: finding fit during the Citigroup bailout – 17:02
Moving to startups: autonomy, prioritisation, and risk ownership – 21:59
Legal as an enabler, not a blocker, in startup environments – 24:35
Building scalable compliance without killing speed – 26:17
Legal’s role in shaping company culture and accountability – 28:21
Following curiosity to stay motivated and engaged – 30:19
Rapid-fire Questions – 32:21   

Connect with us:
Joon Park - https://www.linkedin.com/in/joon-park-147a9a92/
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft   

SpotDraft is a leading contract lifecycle management platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues. Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.

Ep 104: Jack of All Trades, Master of Risk: How Joon Park Navigates Modern Legal Work

In this special episode of The Abstract, host Tyler Finn speaks with Tommie Tavares-Ferreira, newly appointed Chief Strategy Officer at Lawtrades and longtime legal ops leader, community builder, and podcast host.  

Tommie walks us through her unconventional path from the music industry to Peloton, Rakuten, Cedar, and now the executive team at Lawtrades. She shares lessons on scaling companies, embracing curiosity, balancing parenting with leadership, and how legal ops leaders can (and should) step into strategy roles. It’s a personal, powerful conversation about evolving careers, future tech, and the next phase of legal work.

Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-103

Topics:
Introduction: 0:00
Tommie’s early career in music, HBO, and the spirit of DIY creativity: 2:26
Legal ops as a career by necessity, not design: 5:03
Legal ops as a creative discipline and never-ending work: 6:53
Helping businesses scale through legal ops alignment and prioritization: 8:39
Love of technology, fears of automation, and the case for balance: 13:46
Bringing legal teams into the AI journey and overcoming resistance: 19:24
Why Tommie joined Lawtrades and what she hopes to build: 24:55
Legal ops as strategy and expanding the role into go-to-market leadership: 33:15
The glass ceiling in legal ops and the need for executive pathing: 36:52
Rapid-fire questions: 41:17

Connect with us:
Tommie Tavares-Ferreira - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tommie/
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft  

SpotDraft is a leading contract lifecycle management platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues.   

Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.

Ep 103: Building What Doesn’t Exist Yet: Inside the Legal Career of Tommie Tavares-Ferreira

In this special live-recorded episode of The Abstract from CLOC in Las Vegas, host Tyler Finn sits down with David Cowen, founder of The Cowen Group and creator of the SOLID Summit Series.

David shares his journey from staffing to shaping the legal ops ecosystem, the moment he foresaw the rise of e-discovery, and why community is the most powerful response to chaos. He discusses the evolution of legal operations, the future of AI and agentic teams, and why trusting your talent matters more than ever. From frameworks on scaling legal to using ChatGPT as an executive coach, this episode offers a playbook for building a career and community in a rapidly changing industry.

Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-102  

Topics:
Intro: 00:00
David's career journey: From staffing to community building: 2:22
The moment he discovered e-discovery's potential: 5:10
How TED Talks inspired the SOLID Summit format: 6:49
Chaos as the ideal condition for community building: 8:43
Overbuilding in legal tech: problem or opportunity?: 10:52
Spotting innovation through curiosity, not prediction: 13:02
Legal Ops turns 10: What’s next for the profession?: 17:33
Climbing the legal career “jungle gym,” not a ladder: 21:03
How to manage anxiety and disruption in an AI-driven future: 25:53
On coaching, preparation, and using ChatGPT as a partner: 28:25
Legal Ops’ evolving role in helping businesses scale: 32:49
The future of legal tech: use cases and AI agents: 37:12
The GC as catalyst: Top-down transformation is here: 39:46
Creators, Builders, Consumers: Who shapes the industry?: 42:54
What excites David most about the next 10 years: 45:35
Rapid-fire Questions: 47:25

Connect with us:
David Cowen – https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidcowen/
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft  

SpotDraft is a leading contract lifecycle management platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues.   

Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.

Ep 102: What Comes After Legal Ops? A Conversation with David Cowen

What does it mean to lead legal operations when there’s no clear blueprint?

In this episode of The Abstract, host Tyler Finn sits down with Adam Becker, Director of Legal Operations at Cockroach Labs and board member at CLOC, for a candid conversation about evolving careers, scaling legal departments, and the growing scope of legal ops. From breaking the “lawyer mold” to embracing AI-native strategies, Adam shares personal lessons on confidence, curiosity, leadership, and why legal ops is entering a new season of strategic impact.

The discussion also explores how CLOC’s community and resources help elevate the field, and why every legal ops professional should see themselves as a partner to the GC — not just a process owner.

Read detailed summary:  https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-101  

Topics
Introduction and career arc overview: 0:00
Early clues that pointed to process thinking: 1:14
Breaking out of the lawyer mold and recognizing transferable skills: 2:09
Confidence, curiosity, and pivoting into legal ops: 5:51
Driving impact at MetLife and Endeavor: 8:33  
Why legal ops requires conviction, not just thick skin: 11:09  
The people-process-tech triangle — and why “people” matters more: 14:13  
Culture and collaboration at Cockroach Labs: 16:36
Balancing scale with flexibility in a fast-growing company: 18:53
How legal ops has evolved through CLOC’s growth: 21:14
Is legal ops at a crossroads? And what’s CLOC’s role in the future?:  26:22
Rapid Fire: 32:59

Connect with us:
Adam Becker - https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-becker-896a7a3/
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft  

SpotDraft is a leading contract lifecycle management platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues.

Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.

Ep 101: How Legal Ops Became the Center of Strategy with Adam Becker, Cockroach Labs

Savvy and strong legal leadership is only becoming more critical in a complex world.

On The Abstract, we'll be interviewing leading legal executives about how they’ve nurtured their careers, grown in their roles, and become true operators within their businesses. At some points, we’ll deal with the pressure of leadership.

We care deeply about helping in-house counsel grow alongside each other. Join us for insightful and interesting conversations with legal leaders.

The Abstract

SpotDraft's Show

Tyler Finn - Head of Community and Growth at SpotDraft and Host of the podcast "The Abstract"

SpotDraft

Shows