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Ep 103: Building What Doesn’t Exist Yet: Inside the Legal Career of Tommie Tavares-Ferreira
69 Plays21 days ago
In this special episode of The Abstract, host Tyler Finn speaks with Tommie Tavares-Ferreira, newly appointed Chief Strategy Officer at Lawtrades and longtime legal ops leader, community builder, and podcast host.
Tommie walks us through her unconventional path from the music industry to Peloton, Rakuten, Cedar, and now the executive team at Lawtrades. She shares lessons on scaling companies, embracing curiosity, balancing parenting with leadership, and how legal ops leaders can (and should) step into strategy roles. It’s a personal, powerful conversation about evolving careers, future tech, and the next phase of legal work.
Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-103
Topics:
Introduction: 0:00
Tommie’s early career in music, HBO, and the spirit of DIY creativity: 2:26
Legal ops as a career by necessity, not design: 5:03
Legal ops as a creative discipline and never-ending work: 6:53
Helping businesses scale through legal ops alignment and prioritization: 8:39
Love of technology, fears of automation, and the case for balance: 13:46
Bringing legal teams into the AI journey and overcoming resistance: 19:24
Why Tommie joined Lawtrades and what she hopes to build: 24:55
Legal ops as strategy and expanding the role into go-to-market leadership: 33:15
The glass ceiling in legal ops and the need for executive pathing: 36:52
Rapid-fire questions: 41:17
Connect with us:
Tommie Tavares-Ferreira - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tommie/
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft
SpotDraft is a leading contract lifecycle management platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues.
Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.
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Transcript
The Role of Community Leaders in Tech
00:00:00
Speaker
You know what? Your role as a community leader is one of the ones that's going to have the most stickiness in this next iteration with technology because of people.
00:00:10
Speaker
Yes. Because of bringing people together. Because what will happen, my my suspicion, ah be curious for you and I to sit down in 10 years and see where I landed on this suspicion, but what will happen is we will all adopt this technology. We will go bonkers for the next five years. And much like what the pandemic did to us with not seeing each other, it is the craving for human contacts will be that much more yeah because of how much more immersed we are with technology in our day to day and how much it replaces sort of like rather than texting a friend for advice, um advice I'm asking chat GPT, I think it's going to for like sort of force us to want more human connection.
Introduction of Tommy Tavares-Ferrera
00:00:56
Speaker
Some career stories are made by following a path. Others are built by drawing the map, making new paths where none existed before.
00:01:09
Speaker
Today on The Abstract here at Clock in Las Vegas, I am joined by Tommy Tavares-Ferrera, the brand new chief strategy officer at Law Trades.
00:01:22
Speaker
Yay! Yay! Which we're announcing, sort of, on this podcast. You have the exclusive. This is it. You are the press release.
00:01:34
Speaker
Tommy has had a really remarkable journey across entertainment, tech, legal ops, community building. She's been a driving force behind legal innovation at companies like Peloton, Rakuten, and Cedar.
00:01:52
Speaker
Also a host of the Dear Legal Ops podcast. Been a big participant at CLOCK for many years. A writer for today's general counsel. mean, what don't you do, Tommy? Yeah, going a little long on that list.
00:02:07
Speaker
Yeah. Today, though, we're not just looking back. We're looking forward. We're celebrating your new chapter at Law Trades. And we're going to talk a little bit about what's next, the future of legal ops and legal work. So with that, shall we do this? Let's do it.
00:02:24
Speaker
I'm so
Exploring Tommy's Career Path
00:02:25
Speaker
excited. um Okay, so i mean so you and Tom and i a year or two ago sat down and we did an episode of Dear Legal Ops, but this is really like your episode for just the two of us to talk together.
00:02:37
Speaker
um i do want you to take us back a little bit to the start of your career. You spent time at like HBO in the music industry, the Vans Warped Tour. That's pretty cool. Going back, going back. No, no, but like, ah you know, entertainment is is um not an obvious place for a legal ops career to start.
00:02:58
Speaker
Did you have a sense at that point in time, though, that you might have a non-traditional career path? No, not whatsoever. Yeah. I think the only thing about me that was a through line from then um to now is I have a very entrepreneurial spirit.
00:03:14
Speaker
And my career started by working at an independent record label. where I was sort of i guess what today you'd call like the chief of staff to the CEO. And it was small independent record label. well And that's how I ended up on the Warped Tour that you just mentioned.
00:03:28
Speaker
But like I've always had the spirit of like independence, right? It was like these bands who were like DIY and they would go and they would figure out um how to go on tour and how to book shows. And like they they sort of like figured everything out on their own. Then they go on the tour and they do things. And and then and then other people, like like Kevin Lyme's figured out, like how do we make a tour called The Warped Tour and put all these bands that sort of do this themselves.
00:03:51
Speaker
that always spoke to me, that spirit. And I think that spirit carried through to legal operations, right? Because then there was like, even through my career where I ended up doing sort of business administration, music licensing, contract negotiation for HBO, like that all was the, um you know, like the business side of entertainment. It was never I'm certainly not an entertainer by any aspect.
00:04:16
Speaker
um But the the through line of it all was it's all very interesting to see how things work and how they tick and to build them if they're not working. And so in all of those institutions where things were not working, I was always someone who would who would say, like how do we make this work?
00:04:32
Speaker
And of that, I think my operations mind was born. yeah But it started with an entrepreneurship, which I think we'll talk about a little bit when we get to law trades, because so much of that was unearthed when I started talking with the founders. But I know we'll get there.
00:04:49
Speaker
And the Founders, that's a great episode too. I did an episode with Ashish and Rod in New York. Listen to it. It's fantastic. It's a really good one. And I'm not just saying that because it's an episode. Me neither. It's a really good one. It's a good episode. I want people to hear it.
00:05:03
Speaker
ah What was it that really pulled you into Legal Ops and has kept you there up until
Transition into Legal Operations
00:05:10
Speaker
this moment? Yeah. Legal operations was born of necessity. Like I got there by way ah when when we did the the abstract episode, Tom and I talked about like our careers that started as paralegals.
00:05:25
Speaker
And, you know, i had this career, like I said, that started in the entertainment industry and that morphed into contracts, negotiating contracts, and that morphed into legal operations because there was just such a volume of contracts that I wanted to figure out ways to to sort of do it better.
00:05:40
Speaker
But like you know because I've always been like a builder and someone who loves tech and someone who loves tinkering, getting into any situation that you can just make better.
00:05:50
Speaker
So when I was doing contract management and negotiating contracts, I'm like, there's a way to do this better. And so legal operations just sort of happened to me. Never planned this. Certainly didn't plan business.
00:06:02
Speaker
the career growth that we're like, you know, the career turn that I'm about to take that we're going to get into. But it all has just happened. i don't want to say to me because that sounds like. Yeah. tapam But it's been this combination of me following passions and interests.
00:06:19
Speaker
me you know doing whatever I do and doing it well and the culmination of of all of that sort of coming together. but um But I could have never planned any of this. like not it's Not what's... and me both. like like Right? like you know We were talking about this last night, the privacy stuff, that like what you thought you were going to do with your career, yeah where the turns take you. and Some people have to follow those and some people are afraid to follow those turns. like There's scary stuff. like Risk is super, super scary.
00:06:50
Speaker
see You got to get out of that comfort zone. I mean, we are here at CLOCK. What do you think makes legal ops such a sort of powerful lever for change in in-house legal departments?
Creativity in Legal Operations
00:07:05
Speaker
Well, Jen McCarron said it this morning in her keynote. Like, she talked all about creativity inside of legal operations. And I think as you talk to people here, you really see that they are they are very creative.
00:07:19
Speaker
These folks are really creative. And what is creativity if not sort of figuring out how you're changing something? Like if you're an artist, you're looking at this table and you're saying, hey, like, how do we paint this? Or like if you're a musician, you're taking like a note and you're going like, how do I change this riff? How do I keep going?
00:07:36
Speaker
And I think maybe the evolution of legal operations and how it's analogous with like creativity is you're not just sort of sitting and staring at something and saying like, it's done. It's good. It's like,
00:07:47
Speaker
It's good enough, right? Like, no, it's legal ops is never done. Creativity is never done. Like, like it's never done. You keep iterating. You keep going. You keep looking to make something better. You keep growing.
00:07:59
Speaker
And I think that that is like an innate skill or passion. in in legal ops, folks. The good news is, is like whatever it is that we do, like we're never going to be done. like I'm never going to implement a CLM and be like, cool, I'm done.
00:08:14
Speaker
like Constantly have to ask for feature updates. like kind like Constantly have to update based on what the business is doing. So if you're just never done. So if you're comfortable with like always iterating and growing and fixing and building and doing, you are in the right place if you're in Vegas this week.
00:08:31
Speaker
This is great. I'm going to actually, I don't do this that often, but I'm going to put you almost in conversation. yeah I'm going to go off script and I'm go to put you kind of in conversation. I recorded with David Cowan this morning. We talked about how great GCs, great legal ops leaders are creators, right? They're building things.
00:08:49
Speaker
We also talked, I think, about least an evolution that I've seen where it's not just that legal is required to allow the company to scale. yeah It's that these days folks look at legal and say, that's actually a very important partner in helping us scale. And I think legal ops is a big part of that.
00:09:09
Speaker
You've done that before, right? I mean, a company like... Rakuten here in the US, Peloton, which obviously experienced huge huge growth and you were there for the IPO, you know Cedar as well. um Talk to us a little bit about how you've helped not just legal orgs, but like organizations scale through your legal ops work.
00:09:29
Speaker
If I was at Peloton for the IPO, I'd have many more millions dollars in my best cap. But I came. I'm getting the timeline. I came right after. So so ah why did I get caught on that minutia? s Sorry. What was the actual question? No, no, The question was really like, how have you, being at these organizations where there's been not just a scaling legal team, or not just a scaling legal department, but also a really rapidly scaling business, yeah how have you helped the legal team and the wider organization scale?
Scaling Businesses with Legal Operations
00:09:58
Speaker
Oh, that's a great question. Yeah. So the um the beautiful part and position of legal operations, one of the opportunities that we have is when a company is growing. like Cedar is a great example. like Series d this is this is a growth company.
00:10:16
Speaker
Not like hyper, hyper growth unmanageable, but certainly on a real growth trajectory like projection. um We can come in and look at what the business is trying to achieve. And and if you know, I would hope that a legal operations person is doing this if they're looking around the landscape of like what the business is trying to achieve, they can figure out where they fit into that.
00:10:36
Speaker
And really, like if you're if you're a good legal leader, and certainly you know Vanessa at Cedar was, like you're going, what are the company's objectives? Where does you know the legal objectives ladder up to that?
00:10:49
Speaker
And then legal operations going, and how do I help us all achieve that? right So what does the company want to achieve? What does the legal department want to do in support of what the company wants to achieve?
00:11:00
Speaker
And then legal operation goes, and I'll make you all achieve it. Right. So if if the company is like hyper growth and trying to drive revenue and it's like closing deals faster than guess what? guess Guess who's working on CLM stuff like guess who's working with sales up to make sure that you're closing deals like, you know, if if you're trying to save costs and maybe you're working with procurement to go, what what are we spending money on it? Where you know, where do we wrap our arms around that? Like so I think the real opportunities in supporting that rate like big scale
00:11:31
Speaker
is that legal operations generalists really have the know-how to know what levers to pull to support growth. And even if it's happening rapidly, and you like I think that they know where to put themselves in to help to achieve those goals.
00:11:52
Speaker
And to put the fine point on it is what you've just described, that sort of framework. also a framework for prioritization. Yeah. in ah In an environment in which there's probably a lot of different priorities or opinions or. The bottom line is like if everything's a priority, nothing's a priority, right? Like so a lot of my time is spent as a legal apps professional, sort of throwing everything on the whiteboard and then going, what's the matrix here?
00:12:19
Speaker
Like, what is the must get done? What is the nice to have? What's the wishlist? Like, what are we not getting to this year? Because like, yeah everything comes in fast and furious.
00:12:30
Speaker
And it's why I probably like, you know, speak so highly of like doing some sort of intake system, like It's really actually very important because it's important to see how much are you getting in sort of one pocket that just is maybe not important.
00:12:44
Speaker
And how do you like how do you actually systematize the things that are coming in that need some sort of like bounce back, need some sort of like, here's the answer to your question. Now, which energy of AI that's going to do a lot of that like first pass, maybe answer the question. Because a lot of that doesn't need a legal mind. or a legal operations mind. And we do legal ops leaders are really going to find these opportunities of like where do we strategize where we do spend our time and where we don't spend our time, where our lawyers spend their time, where they don't spend their time.
00:13:14
Speaker
But really, like we we can't all be everything all the time. But lawyers feel like they need to. Sometimes they want to. And sometimes they actually have to be. So being able to figure out like where we can put them where they don't maybe need to answer a question where that can be like a self-serve thing, where technology fits in and like actually helps us to get that done. All of that stuff, those are really fun problems and challenges. But if you don't prioritize, you will spin out really fast because there's a lot to do.
00:13:46
Speaker
And how do you think about
Technology and Human Elements in Legal Work
00:13:48
Speaker
technology? I mean, and there's There's a ton of different threads there, right? I mean, you know, there's like, when should you be thinking about tech? There's, you know, the sort of hated phrase, which is like, do more with less, aka tech. yeah There's this sort of debate about, you know, how do you think about people versus process yeah versus tech and prioritizing? I don't know.
00:14:09
Speaker
Give us your sort of philosophy on technology. I mean, I love technology. I have loved technology. Like, i'm I'm the type of person in my personal life that's like like when when I was eight years old, I'm looking around this room because there's just cameras everywhere. And like, I had my first camera when I was eight years old and I was...
00:14:29
Speaker
I love, you know, I was recording like who knows what an eight year old records, but like and that morphed into when I was a teenager making a documentary and that morphed into like so I for my senior thesis of college, everyone had to write papers. I i thought I was so savvy and I was like, I'm going to make a documentary. And I did. And I did it on the topic of of wow karaoke.
00:14:51
Speaker
It's amazing. It's such a fun topic. Right. And it's the karaoke culture, the impact of it in the United States, et cetera, et cetera. So it's fine. It married like a lot of things that I like, like the entertainment industry, singers, like um people who really want to become famous, who maybe never will. and Yeah. You will find those folks in karaoke bars.
00:15:08
Speaker
But so I did a documentary, but it was like it wasn't just like, oh, I want like a camera. i I like had an entire set like you would think it was my own production. So I've just always loved gadgets and stuff. And then that transformed into adulthood when I started working like. you know, on a computer and like that transformed into like an editing software. And then like that transformed in my professional life into like SaaS platforms and just knowing like how do these things work and how do you take them apart and how do you break them? And then today that's how do I break chat GBT and how do I use Claude and how do I sort of like how do I integrate my life and let the technology sort of like supplement the facets of my life that I don't need. I don't need to spend more time like writing a LinkedIn post. Like I don't need to spend more time writing emails. Like, like I think there's something about the presence of me and the authenticity of me. And like, I don't want that sort of lost in allowing the robots to do too much for me. Yeah.
00:16:07
Speaker
But i do love like me being able to do more of the things that I want to do with that time that I got. So the bottom line is there's just in my personal and professional life, there is simply no technology that I like that I don't love. Am I sort of afraid of the trajectory that we're on with the LLMs and with the robots?
00:16:33
Speaker
Absolutely. kily This morning, we saw that video of the software yes that is like, are you too busy to be on the actual Zoom? Don't worry. Let the software be there for you. and Somebody who was sitting next to me was like, that's fucking frightening. Yeah.
00:16:50
Speaker
like to to think like like deep fakes and all of the problems that will come with the advent of technologies. But that's always been the story. That has always been the story. The advent, like it was the story with the industrial revolution. It was the story with the internet.
00:17:06
Speaker
Like the story always is like, it was the story that accountants wouldn't have jobs when Excel was made. but yeah But is that true? No. Now accountants are constantly in Excel. And now today they're in Excel with like AI wrappers around it. And like so the story will always be that this stuff is scary and people are going to abuse it and do terrible, terrible things because there's just always going to be terrible people. But if you can compartmentalize that, which I do, um and not to mention what this technology is going to do the earth. So I really have a lot that I have to compartmentalize. yeah But if I can push all that to the side, which I obviously do, the the progression forward and what it offers us, I think, is very exciting. And so the allure of that excitement, I cannot deny.
00:17:50
Speaker
So mean you have to be a little bit of the evangelist, yes the Pied Piper for technology in a legal department. Yes. I think it's true that a lawyer with AI is going to replace a lawyer who doesn't leverage AI at all.
00:18:07
Speaker
I don't think it's exclusive to lawyers, by the way. right I think i think it should be i think agree a yeah community leader who leverages AI is going to replace a community leader who doesn't want to leverage technology at all. But i will I will poke the tiniest of holes in your theory, which sure you're right, but you know what?
00:18:25
Speaker
Your role as a community leader is one of the ones that's going to have the most stickiness in this next iteration with technology because of people. Yes. Because of bringing people together. Because what will happen, my my suspicion, ah be curious for you and I to sit down in 10 years and see where I landed on this suspicion, but what will happen is we will all adopt this technology. We will go bonkers for the next five years.
00:18:51
Speaker
And much like what the pandemic did to us with not seeing each other, like it is the craving for human contact will be that much more yeah because of how much more immersed we are with technology in our day-to-day and how much it replaces sort of like rather than texting a friend for advice um advice I'm asking chat GPT, I think it's going to for like sort of force us to want more human connection.
00:19:17
Speaker
i agree with that. And I think that your role will be one that is is much more imperative because of that. Like bringing people together. something on that too. And then and people who maybe have like heard me on webinars and stuff have heard me reference this before. I mean, this was years ago and it was a study focused more on robots as opposed to AI.
00:19:36
Speaker
But I mean, you basically, you think about jobs as yeah like having analytical and emotional or connect, know, human connection capabilities, right? um Highly analytical, highly emotive, yeah very safe, yeah right? AKA something kind of like this or in theory, a McKinsey consultant or other, who knows what will happen?
00:19:59
Speaker
ah got Highly emotive, not analytical, actually pretty safe. Like, massage therapist, right? That's actually very safe. Though there is there there is a robot massage. But yes, you're right. Absolutely. really that, you know, not analytical, not emotive, or analytical, but um not very emotive, right? Those quadrants that go away.
00:20:22
Speaker
The question that I was going to pose to you, though, is in this sort of landscape, you maybe skeptical members of your legal team or people who don't they They might not be the first movers. They might not be the folks who are like, I'm going to go and sign up and take pay 20 bucks a month on my personal credit card to play with chat GPT at home. yeah for all Right?
00:20:40
Speaker
How do you bring them along? It's the same story as it was when I needed to bring them along, say on a CLM journey or on an intake journey or on ah on a whatever change journey.
00:20:53
Speaker
So the story is the same, but I think the way you achieve it is much more accessible. The story is the same, which is do something with them that gets them involved, that shows them how it makes their life better.
00:21:03
Speaker
That was the same thing that I would do, say with the CLM, but the problem with the CLM is it's a big investment to see how it helps you. like Sometimes you don't get, like say, a CLM that lets you do a proof of concept. So you might actually have to buy the thing for people. right su But this journey is so much more accessible. like for To your point, for $20 a month, we can use ChatGPT as long as the company allows us to. yes And we can sort of see um how this helps us along. right that's so accessible and so fast.
00:21:34
Speaker
It's like, oh, you wanted to know whether TCPA laws have changed. um You pose that question into an agent and have something like like pull back like a survey.
00:21:47
Speaker
So I think that it's so much more accessible to show them that it makes their life easier. But I have to tell you, I've been having so many conversations with people around tech, around lawyers, around the evolution, the iteration of everything.
00:22:00
Speaker
h I haven't had them that much with legal ops professionals. I've had them with lawyers. And because i think legal operations professionals are much more sort of bullish on this.
00:22:11
Speaker
Yeah. Lawyers, I am getting a sentiment of um like caution that is not like caution around risk, there's a real sentiment around like, is this thing really going to replace my job? Like ah like ah like a psychological, like like I am pushing back because subconsciously I do not want this thing to do what I spend a lot of time on.
00:22:36
Speaker
Right. And to that, I understand sort of some of the fears. Like i I do. Like I psychologically understand like Like if like if we're talking about contracts, and we're talking about red lines because that's so many of the tooling that we're seeing in our space, right?
00:22:50
Speaker
Like if we're talking about like like but the strategy part of it, the part where you're a business like partner, yeah the part where you're sitting on an executive team and helping to shape the way the company moves forward.
00:23:03
Speaker
That's not I hope it will be pretty crappy if you allow that part to be replaced by AI, right? So I think, again, talking about that humanness, talking about that empathy, what do people have to offer that the tech cannot offer?
00:23:17
Speaker
like We all have to over-index on that. But i've seen i have seen and had conversations with lawyers that really don't love how much it feels like this technology does a lot of things that I do.
00:23:30
Speaker
With lawyers, I always sort of say, I think, a big component that it's not going to be able to replace is judgment. Yes. Right? Like good judgment. Because good judgment can really only be honed over time and experience and sometimes some intuition. and yeah Well, think of what a lawyer does really well, actually. And I hope and I want for them all to be adopting this technology because I love it.
00:23:56
Speaker
But think of what they do really well, which is critical thinking, like like judgment. So it's not the rote red line. And it's not. That's the stuff that like they'd be happy to pass that to the junior party. right So if you think about what, like I said, like a business strategist, like someone who is working on developing like how like huge M&A deal, like we're not sort of leaving that those components um to the AI, but but maybe elements of it, like like pulling out, extrapolating um you know certain clauses from contracts in that M&A deal. Diligence is going to look different. You're you're you're good on like not doing the diligence manually. But you are also very much so needed in that room to figure out, like are we going after the right company for this acquisition? like How do we position this? but like So I think all of the strategy elements sort of start rising to the top.
00:24:53
Speaker
I agree with you. um Let's talk about your next role and your next Because we're talking about strategy. Yeah, exactly. Talking about strategy, talking about leveling up.
Joining Law Trades as CSO
00:25:05
Speaker
I mean, you've been in a great role, but this is different. No, this is certainly a level up. Absolutely. What was it that drew you to law trades? And how did you know that this was the right next step for you?
00:25:17
Speaker
So I started to get to know Rad and Ashish. And um I was introduced to that to them via a friend. And getting to know them, we organically just started like talking shop, basically. yeah And in that, I would go like sort of like you know the way that i am. like I'd sort of get really excited about legal operations, like ideas, and things. And like I got really excited about what they were doing and some of what they were talking about as their what they see as their next stages for their company.
00:25:51
Speaker
And then we just started marrying some of the ideas of what they were seeing as next phases of growth and what I was seeing and getting exciting about. And we started to see like the Venn diagram of overlap of all of those things. And it it really came together quite naturally, actually. like At first, they I really think they were looking for maybe a community person or someone who like could do content. And I was like, yeah, sure.
00:26:16
Speaker
like Of course, i I'm interested in those things and I can do them. But the more that we talked, this is how it evolved into a chief strategy role. Because the more that we got to know each other and the more time we spent together,
00:26:28
Speaker
we began to realize that there were we were sitting there strategizing like together what what what they saw as growth opportunities, what I saw and how I saw that I fit into that, how they really complemented each other. And I think that all of that came together beautifully. We just vibed, the three of us like we We just threw down in like a Slack channel and would just go off all day long yeah talking, talking, talking, talking. And i think that just, I mean, sorry, like it's going to sound so silly, but just the but the vibe. I'm a very big people person. like How do I vibe with people? you can't obviously work work closely. We're going be working in person. like
00:27:11
Speaker
You can't do that if like the vibe is off, honestly. I think two of the most underrated right points when people are deciding if they want to take a job, yeah they don't spend enough time thinking about who their immediate boss is going to be.
00:27:25
Speaker
And they don't spend enough time thinking about who the CEO is because that impacts culture. Just an aside. and i you know and And those two things I had in spades, right? Like I was sitting there with my immediate boss, CEO, like Sue.
00:27:38
Speaker
and And I've gotten, I used to say I got lucky, but then I began to realize like it's not luck. I've actually been really pointed on this. My last few bosses have been perfection because to your point, I was so diligent and sort of like the the vetting I did of who they were and thinking about how much time I'm going to spend with them and whether or not we sort of clicked whether I could be authentic, whether I could really be be you know honest with them. and And a lot of that is important in legal operations, like being heard, being able to influence. like
00:28:12
Speaker
So I have to be able to be honest and influence you. And like how receptive are you going to be to that? Are you just going like, yeah, that's nice, and move on with your day? Or like are you going to hear my ideas and let me run with them? And I used to say I was lucky, but it's not luck. I really like search for that now.
00:28:27
Speaker
And so it's not a mistake that I once again hopefully will say, like yeah, i hit the lottery with, with my you know like with my bosses or with the leaders of this company because am really sort of like searching for that.
00:28:41
Speaker
And i and i I hope people hear your point of like when you're interviewing or when you're thinking about joining a company or if you're joining a leadership team, like Really think about who these people are yes and how hard it will be to sort of like get on with them. Because at the end of the day, that is really what is going to make or break the relationship or the wins you have or how far you take sort of your ideas. like If it's going to be a constant struggle, you can have the greatest ideas. But like you're not going to bring them home.
00:29:10
Speaker
like You're not. like And if you if you have good chemistry and if you have good ideas and you empower each other and you trust each other, like yeah trust We could do a whole episode on trust. Yeah. Like that will be something where you start seeing like that company winning because of how that team is working together and trusting each other and empowering each other.
00:29:29
Speaker
It's obviously early. Right, right. You don't say, yeah. But ah what's the sort of vision that you're excited to help them shape?
Vision for Law Trades
00:29:40
Speaker
Or what are you excited to build in this new role and next phase for you?
00:29:44
Speaker
I'll be sort of cautious because i do want to, I do think it's important for us to sort of like figure feel out how we want to position this to the marketplace. But I'll say things that are cryptic enough, which will make sense later.
00:29:59
Speaker
i would say, obviously, it would not be a role that I'm going to be in if there is not going to be a legal operations element to it. right like And so that could be anything from content community, the people that we're selling to, the people that we are embedded with, the people that we have on our platform,
00:30:18
Speaker
All of those things actually happened today, so there's no secret there. But I think there's a couple secrets in what magic and what angle we're going to bring to that community. That is absolutely a huge part of this.
00:30:30
Speaker
Another part that you touched on, which is, and and I don't know that many people know this, but like Law trades is powered on a platform that they created. and so the you know the engineering work and everything that goes into it is also like quite impressive. I dug into that. that was that's That's another selling point for me. like I love technology.
00:30:51
Speaker
There will be other technology elements that we are going to certainly go to market with that I think are going to be very interesting, very impressive, um dare I say game changer. um you know It's too early, right?
00:31:05
Speaker
Yeah. It's too early to sort of like walk around announcing what these things are. but Again, these are no secrets. This is already a company that is powered on a platform that technology is no secret to them.
00:31:17
Speaker
um That's something that they spend like so much of their time on now. So iterating on that, that's also I don't think anything that's too secret. And then the final part that I think is is that we will go to market with our elements of there's a gap in sort of like there's a gap in education um generally today that I think a lot of people are trying to fill.
00:31:42
Speaker
Like and where I see it in legal operations is like I see CLOCK doing things like having a CLOCK Academy and having. Sure. There's no certifications for legal operations, nor should there be, because you just get to this job by so many different routes.
00:31:55
Speaker
But I think that there is a desire and also we're here, we're spending a week here at at an institute where we're learning all week long. Like there is certainly a craving for like higher education in that respect. Yes. I think that also is something that to our point of talking about lawyers earlier and what um what they're feeling about like sort of AI, like I think there's a lot of room for growth there, not in sort of rigidity of like we're going to like give you sort of winner's certificates if you if you do Gen AI.
00:32:29
Speaker
But I do think that there is space there that like we might want to be in. And so i think I think none of this is actually shocking if you know me. I think you know legal operations. I think you know technology. And I think you know furthering, um you know i don't want to say education. It's not the right word.
00:32:45
Speaker
But furthering insights maybe in a systematized way is something that like I do in community building, I do in in like sort of like with Dear Legal Ops with Tom, like what we were trying to do.
00:32:56
Speaker
We were trying to help people to learn more about legal operations in any sort of digestible form. So I also think bringing some of those ideas to life in a way that like we think will materialize like very nicely.
00:33:10
Speaker
i think those three areas will be a big area for focus in that first year. This is not a question that's meant to say, draw a through line with the benefit of hindsight that is like totally and completely straight and clear. Yeah.
Strategic Role of Legal Operations
00:33:25
Speaker
um But what do you think it is sort of about the the varied experiences that you've had and the slightly non-traditional path that you have that has really prepared you for this type of role and this type of business?
00:33:41
Speaker
Well, I think legal operations has prepared me in ways that i I didn't even know it would for this role. Right. Because in the last few years, especially the more that I've gotten into like sort of leadership and legal operations have been on legal leadership teams.
00:34:01
Speaker
really what I was spending a lot of my time on was executing big scale ideas, influencing big scale ideas, and doing it inside of the microcosm of one company.
00:34:13
Speaker
Yeah. And so I'm simply taking a lot of those skills that I've sharpened over the last few years of like, you know, wide scale ideas and getting people on board and and like even sort of marketing like change to people in my company via whether they were CLM um implementations or like like marketing the way things were going to change and then having sort of like the backup of how you follow through.
00:34:38
Speaker
Now you take all of that and and do it inside of a company. And so i'm not I'm not simply doing it inside of ah business and doing it and selling my ideas and and selling that to other departments.
00:34:50
Speaker
I'm saying this is what this business's ideas are and this is what we're going to market with. And here, how am I marketing this not inside of one company, but out to the whole marketplace? And so I think largely because it is still inside of our legal ecosystem, I get to utilize all of the network that I've grown and all of the the ways in which I understand how valuable ALSPs are. like We didn't even talk about that. And like that's what brought me to the table, which is like when you're a legal ops professional and you're trying to figure out how do you do resource planning, how do you save money, like how do you how do you take all of the work and strategize, like this doesn't all need to go to outside counsel. This over here is super risky, and like that does
00:35:37
Speaker
but this over here is like commoditized or repeatable or that goes to an ALSP, even that work, like understanding like its value is extremely important. So I think knowing knowing how important like the work that ALSP is offer, yeah how they can change. like Let's take like a GC who's new to their role and they're like, I don't know what I'm doing.
00:35:59
Speaker
and you insert the stickiness of a company like Lawtrades that's going to go, not only we going to give you people, we might also give you some tech. But like we're we're going to propel you forward and help you strategize like how you start running this team. And like that's the vision I see for it. I think that they're doing it very, very well right now.
00:36:18
Speaker
And I think we just sort of put what they're doing well on steroids and we have stickiness inside of teams. And I think that that is like the vision and why I think it's so important for me as legal ops person to say, hey, I think I can do this and I think I could do it well um because I've done so many thematic similar things.
00:36:37
Speaker
Yes. In a little bit of a different way. I am so excited to have you back in like a year or two to talk about all that you've built and all that you've learned. You better crush it.
00:36:53
Speaker
And also i think the like additional advice that you'll have at that point in time with a different lens on how... legal roles and the job market and how all of that's changing. It's all going evolve. That's Yeah. I think you're going to have a, like, you know, in the future, I'm saying people should seek you out, you know, today, of course, but also in like nine months or a year and say, you know, I heard your thoughts on AI and how it's important for me to be, you know, leaning into this and how that helps me create a durable career. And But you're going to have so much advice.
00:37:28
Speaker
I'll hopefully have very different insights yeah because I will have changed. What's out there will have changed. The tech will have changed. Yes. So i do i will be curious to see. sort of like We'll do a look back in a year or two years and then go, what has evolved?
00:37:43
Speaker
And one thing that I do want to say, because I think you have a very big audience of legal ops professionals, is the the the hope that I sort of hope that people take away from my role of going from head of legal ops to a chief strategy officer of law trades. Yes.
00:37:59
Speaker
My hope is that they see that they are strategists. That's a personal thing for me. like I feel that I've spent a lot of time in my career, especially like the last five years, being a strategist and and sort of learning how to tell stories and learning how to bring people on a journey.
00:38:20
Speaker
And like now I get to do it in a different way. It's the same skill set. And I hope that my peers and my colleagues and everyone in the legal ops community, I hope that they see that for themselves. Because that is, i feel really strongly about that. Like I feel strongly that these are strategists, right? Like they are, like even Allison at Zoom, like her title is not even legal operations anymore. Like she's running a strategy, team right?
00:38:43
Speaker
So I think that there is even that shift in our space. And maybe when we do our look back in two years, like maybe that'll also be something that's shifting. Like maybe strategy roles are going to be the new legal ops roles. Like, yes, maybe not. But it is such a big part of our roles.
00:38:58
Speaker
And I want people to think about that. i and I would say this, not to take anything away from what you're doing, but to if you look at people like Allison or Akshay, I mean, I can list them out.
00:39:09
Speaker
It's to say, like, this is another example, yeah right? This is another great example. And the list may be, I don't know, 10 or 15 or now.
00:39:20
Speaker
And hopefully in a couple of years, the list is 45 or 50 or 75 or, right? Yeah. um And you're a big part of that story and trajectory.
00:39:31
Speaker
that's ah That's very exciting. I think what it also tells us is if there's me and there's like Akshay, there's Steph Corey, there's all these folks that they go on to do either start their own thing or become an executive in another company.
00:39:44
Speaker
The other insight that that is giving the marketplace, and this is this is sort of the opposite of my my hope speech about strategists for legal ops, the other story that that's telling the marketplace is, and this had a little bit to do with that education piece I was talking about before,
00:40:00
Speaker
is leaders are hitting a glass ceiling. And so what do we do about that in legal operations? Because if they are hitting a VP role and there's no sort of chief legal operations officer, there's not going to be, right? like therere Like how would do you get them on an executive team and it's not at a legal tech company? Because right now that's where a lot of their value is. Sure.
00:40:24
Speaker
But but they they have the same skills and can sort of do these roles anywhere. So I think... I think the elephant in the room is some folks like me are taking these roles that take us out of legal operations because we have that same executive skill set.
00:40:40
Speaker
yeah But how do we grow that in legal operations? Because we we don't want to lose all our good people. Yes, frankly. Right. yeah And so on the one hand, I want everyone to hold hope and to see that they are strategists and to think about that when they're thinking about their roles.
00:40:54
Speaker
And on the other, i want legal operations as maybe a community, a profession to think about how we level up inside of of these roles so that they don't hit the sort of VP glass ceiling.
00:41:07
Speaker
You've given me a new question to ask my podcast guests. Right. like So there's an angle and there's a problem we should all go fix. I love that. um Okay. As we start to close out, I want to ask you my traditional closing questions for my guests.
00:41:23
Speaker
The first is what your favorite part of your day-to-day is. Like literally today? No, no, like day to day, like your day to day. Although this may change, I guess, soon. So so i am I'm going to answer two questions. yeah One is I am going to tell you my favorite part of today because it was adorable. um But the second is this is going to shock anyone who knows me.
00:41:47
Speaker
I'm very big on people being able to work remotely. like i really As a parent, as someone who has gained like invaluable time with my young child throughout most of his young life, like I will never get these years back. And being able to be with him has been one of the greatest gifts that the the universe has given me, I have to say. And probably many parents will agree with that.
00:42:10
Speaker
um This is going to shock people who know me, but am a-okay with people being in person with purpose. ah If you want to hole up in the in ah in ah in ah in a conference room and whiteboard and like strategize, I am so into that.
00:42:27
Speaker
yeah But it has to be with purpose because if you are literally taking me away from like seeing my kid come home and like yeah like asking him about his day and not coming home every night after he's already asleep, like there has to be a purpose. So one thing I am excited about, and this is going to be shocking because of how strongly I feel about like people being able to work remotely. And it's not just kids. like There's people with disabilities. like There's so many reasons why it's very important.
00:42:49
Speaker
um But I am actually very excited because Radishish and I are all in New York. we we will Probably not every day because I do want to see my child. But we're going to work together a lot often in per person. And I am actually super pumped about it because it's one of those things that there is a purpose.
00:43:06
Speaker
There is a reason for us to be together, strategizing in a room. And already, like the the times that we have gotten together and sort of met up and and ideated together, it what what has transacted in moments may have not happened or might have happened like staggering sort of over.
00:43:26
Speaker
So I'm excited about that energy. So that's going to surprise people. And I think maybe people will be aligned with me like if it's with purpose, like being together is actually quite beneficial.
00:43:39
Speaker
Maybe not with purpose. I'll come co-work with you. Yeah. no Oh, yeah. Well, just because we want to be around each other because we like being around each other, right? Yeah. Like when the vibe is vibing, like yeah I want to be in people's presence. So why have to be very specific about who you work for, with. like And then the other thing that I am very excited about today is that my child FaceTimed me earlier. OK.
00:44:03
Speaker
And he told me a story that just made me laugh so hard. he had His school has a 50-acre, just a lot of outdoor space. And they spend a lot of time outside. Yeah. And today, him and his friends at school had found salamanders. And so he was telling me that he kept it in his pocket.
00:44:22
Speaker
And miraculously, this thing lived throughout the day, even though he had in his pocket. And he was like, don't worry, Mama. It didn't die because I kept ah kept putting water in my pocket.
00:44:35
Speaker
I was like, this is so problematic on so many levels. Is the salamander at home now? No. Well, he showed me a video. It was very much alive, just so we're all clear. And my wife like had him put it back like in in the woods. But we almost had a salamander as a pet earlier. So that was my favorite part of to die. That's amazing. It was adorable. um I mean, maybe you've already given us one. think this is a fun question, though. What's your professional or do you have a professional pet peeve?
00:45:01
Speaker
um People that are inauthentic, ah like like people who not inauthentic, that felt a little judgy. Like, I very much so want everyone to bring their real selves. Yes.
00:45:17
Speaker
And what I mean is just be yourself. Yeah. And I think I've been myself. And maybe this isn't the right framing, but I feel like it's got me this far. Can't be wrong, right? Yeah. So I just like it when people feel like they can speak up or just be themselves.
00:45:35
Speaker
be themselves um I do not love when people like sort of want to control other people, like control how they work. control like So micromanagers, I think, is a is a great example of a management style that I do not vibe with, like what I don't like. So I just really like when people are authentic and open and like feel like they can bring their ideas to the table. like There's no stupid ideas like that. You never know where something good is coming from.
00:46:05
Speaker
so don't know. Like, I feel like I'm not really giving you a great answer. But yeah, I just want people to feel like they can be themselves. Also, to the point that we keep coming back to around people, around like,
00:46:18
Speaker
empathy and things. like like I want to know that I vibe with someone, not the version of me that they think I want. And like I'll give you this version, but like if you don't vibe with me, that's OK.
00:46:31
Speaker
It's all right. I might not be for everybody. I probably use a few too many exclamation points in my emails for some people's to buy. I'm sure I do, right? Too many emojis.
00:46:42
Speaker
Emojis help retention, though, is what I've learned. Yeah. OK, is there a book that you would recommend to our audience? This can be like a professional book, but it can also just be something fun that you've read under their They should probably all read the book I just wrote, which is a children's book called Sebastian the Brave. Yes.
00:47:02
Speaker
um It's about bravery. but This is not a plant. that No, it's not actually. i'll tell you the real book I'm reading in a minute. But this is why I really love this book, not because me and my kid wrote it. Because it it is about doing things even though you're scared.
00:47:15
Speaker
And like I do that a lot in my career. yeah I'm constantly fucking petrified. and i maybe Sorry. I'm constantly like afraid, unsure, insecure. And like you just have to sort of take that step anyway.
00:47:28
Speaker
And then you get to the other side and you're like, whew, I have nothing to be afraid of. So i do I do love bravery as a mantra for fellow professionals because i just ah people will grow in their careers, so I want them to.
00:47:39
Speaker
um But I'm reading right now, I can't think of the author's name, but it's Co-Intelligence. It's about working. We'll find it for the show notes. Yeah, it's um it's living with AI. And it's a guy who who knows a ton about like sort of describing in really easy English like what this all is, how how they were built, like how the LLMs were built. And so it contextualized a lot of what the technology is. And I thought that was great.
00:48:04
Speaker
super plain English and he's funny. And then he has like certain paragraphs that he writes about like he's like, oh, like a I just wrote that. And like so he'll <unk>ll dig into some of like the scary stuff. But like if anyone sort of even needs to dip their toes and figure out like what is all of this and why are people constantly talking about it and I think it's a good starter pack of like just just grounding yourself in like where we are.
00:48:26
Speaker
And then because I'm joining ah Series A startup, um David Cowan actually got gifted me Pattern Breakers. and Nice. So i'm that's next. I should be done with Co-Intelligence soon and I'll read Pattern Breakers. And I i hope that'll be a good read for what I'm about to go into.
00:48:44
Speaker
My last question for you, Tommy, traditional closing question. i don't know if I asked this to you and Tom. I'm not sure. I didn't go back and do my research. So um it'd be cool if you have two different answers, actually. OK. Yeah. i'm I'm a little nervous. i hope I hope I remember what I said first time. No, no, It's if you could look back on your days earlier in your career, maybe as a paralegal getting started, something that you know now that you wish that you'd known back then.
00:49:15
Speaker
Um, I I wish that I knew that um executives were people, too, actually, because that early in my career, i think like I thought that they were big, scary. Yeah.
00:49:31
Speaker
Right. Like and it's like, no, they're actually just people. Yeah. And I think that's very helpful. I also wish that I knew then that like radical curiosity would change my career. Right. Like, I think I was very early on in my career was very focused in sort of like perfection and getting the thing in front of me right and like checking the boxes, if you will, of like whatever it is that i had to do. But really, a lot of growth has come from radical curiosity, like something like and this we hear this all the time in legal operations.
00:50:07
Speaker
But something like, why are we doing this? Right? like why like Like, why am I even doing the task? Rather than, I think I was hyper-focused early on, on doing the task and doing it well.
00:50:19
Speaker
Yeah. And then didn't that evolved into, like, why are we even doing it? and Do I need to do it? Is it important? Is it is it like sort of moving the needle on whatever the most important thing is? So I think like that radical curiosity, but that that coupled with not being afraid of executives because like not being afraid to say to somebody, like why do we do this?
00:50:39
Speaker
What's the point of this? How can I do it better? Do I need to do it? right like So all of that, what is that? That's operations. It's me trying to build, fix, do it better. So i think I think what I'm trying to say is I wish I was sort of more operationally minded. um But eventually I got there.
00:50:56
Speaker
Like eventually I did sort of like get empowered, feel feel comfortable enough to sort of like rage against the machine or whatever. But yeah, I would say like just bring radical curiosity to your day.
00:51:09
Speaker
Well, Tommy, congratulations to you. Thank you. But more so, congratulations to Rod and Ashish and Law Trades and their investors and their customers yeah um on your new role. And thanks so much for joining me for this episode of The Abstract. Thank you for doing such an incredible job with The Abstract. And thank you for having me.
00:51:29
Speaker
And to all of our listeners, thank you so much for tuning in. And hope to see you next time.