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Ep 99: Resilience, Wellness, and the Law: Keita de Souza on Building a Sustainable Legal Career
2 Playsin 1 hour
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What does it take to thrive in law without losing yourself in the process?
In this episode of The Abstract, host Tyler Finn is joined by Keita de Souza, General Counsel of Ryse and a former big law attorney turned wellness advocate, for a conversation that redefines what it means to be successful in legal practice. From pushing herself to burnout in her early law firm years to navigating the emotional toll of winding down a startup, Keita opens up about how personal health crises sparked a shift toward sustainability, intentionality, and self-compassion.
Keita discusses her unique path from big law to in-house roles, the lessons learned from yoga and physical setbacks, and how she’s learned to prioritize both career and care. She also shares what it was like to lead legal through the closure of a company — and why she decided to take the leap again with a new startup. This episode is a candid and empowering look at resilience, leadership, and how to keep your center while leading others.
Topics
Introduction: 0:00
Early years in Big Law and unsustainable pace: 3:07
Physical breakdowns and health wake-up calls: 5:2
Small habits that transformed wellness: 11:42
Transitioning from law firm to in-house counsel: 13:30
Differences Between Law Firm and In-House Legal Work: 14:54
Developing Wind-Down Strategies and Daily Resets: 18:50
Aggressive Self-Care Days: A Personal Practice: 18:55
Leading Through a Company Wind-Down: 23:05
Staying Grounded in Crisis: Leading with Calm and Integrity: 26:57
How yoga helped her survive high-stress moments: 29:11
Starting over as General Counsel at Ryse: 30:22
Balancing ambition with intentional self-care: 32:12
Redefining legal excellence beyond perfectionism: 34:15
Building confidence and shedding self-doubt: 39:03
Daily Rituals for Reset and Recovery: 42:35
Professional Pet Peeves: 44:23
Book Recommendations: 46:37
Advice to Younger Self: 49:32
Connect with us:
Keita de Souza - https://www.linkedin.com/in/keitadesouza/
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft
SpotDraft is a leading contract lifecycle management platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues.
Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.
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Transcript
Unexpected Health Incident
00:00:00
Speaker
It was around 4.35 in the afternoon. I'm walking from my office to the bathroom. And thank God I was walking close to the wall because all of a sudden I felt this pain in my back.
00:00:12
Speaker
And I had never experienced that before. And i it was like this sharp pain, tears in my eyes. Like I was like, i i like you would have thought that somebody like... hit me really hard, like right in my lower back.
00:00:24
Speaker
yeah Yeah. And I was right outside of a conference room and I like hobbled like like literally like very carefully into the conference room, sat down and thought it would just pass. and And I was in so much pain.
00:00:37
Speaker
I felt like I couldn't walk. Luckily, my husband was in a meeting not far from my office that day. i call, it I mean, literally, and am I'm like, it's it's not even the end of the day yet, right? And I'm like, I need you to come and get me for urgent care.
00:00:52
Speaker
And they said, oh, you threw out your back. And I was like, okay.
00:00:58
Speaker
was like I mean, I'm like 35, right? Walking in the hallway. Yeah, walking in the hallway. You know, I think of people who throw out their back as being either much older or, frankly, much more physical than I was at the time. like And I'm like, how did I? I was, I explained to the doctor, I was like I'm literally walking. I didn't do any like weird, you know what i mean? Like crazy move or anything. And she said, no, that just is what happens.
Wellness and Career Sustainability
00:01:25
Speaker
In a profession that often prizes perfection and endurance, how do you learn to listen to your body and build a sustainable career on your own terms?
00:01:38
Speaker
What does resilience really look like after a company winds down? And how do you reclaim your voice and wellness in the process?
Introducing Keita D'Souza
00:01:48
Speaker
Today on the abstract, I am joined by my new friend, friend, we've known each other for a little while, Keita D'Souza, General Counsel of RISE, a real estate investment marketplace that's unlocking access to the $1.5 trillion dollar lease asset market.
00:02:08
Speaker
Prior to Rise, Keita served as general counsel of Resi, a prop tech startup that wound down in 2023. She spent over eight years in big law at firms like Goodwin, the background spanning real estate, restructuring, and other complex deals.
00:02:29
Speaker
And she's done some other really cool stuff, too. Before that, she launched a catering company in Washington, D.C., did policy work at the Women's Prison Association, and was a Coro Fellow.
00:02:42
Speaker
She's also a yoga teacher and teaches everywhere from yoga studios to a transitional house for women coming home from New York City's jails.
00:02:52
Speaker
We're going to talk a little bit about yoga
Early Career in Law and Work-Life Balance
00:02:54
Speaker
today. I don't remember if I put it in the script or not, but we're going to chat about it. There we go. yeah ah With that, welcome to this episode of The Abstract.
00:03:03
Speaker
Hi, Tyler. Thanks for having me. I'm super excited about this. Okay. We don't want to dwell on big law for too long, but let's let's go back and let's start there. you know What did your time in big law, those early years, teach you about sort of pace of life, quality of life, dealing with pressure?
00:03:25
Speaker
I'm sure you learned a lot. Absolutely. like Where to start with that one? um So much. i I remember... And I was trying to think when I was preparing for this, I was trying to think, where did this come from?
00:03:38
Speaker
But I remember very clearly in law school, having this idea that, okay, I'm gonna go to big law. I'm when I made that decision. and I said,
00:03:50
Speaker
Okay, this is going to be really hard, but you're going to work really hard and you're going to run as fast as you can and you're going to go for as long as you can.
Maintaining Wellness in Law Practice
00:03:59
Speaker
And then when you hit your wall, then you'll figure out what's next.
00:04:02
Speaker
I mean, that was really the plan. And in my mind, i had that trajectory is like five years. Again, Where any of this came from, I really couldn't tell you.
00:04:14
Speaker
But there was this energy that I had. And I think a lot of young associates have where they're like, okay, they they know they're signing up for long hours, hard work, all of the things.
00:04:25
Speaker
um And They just are ready just push. At least I certainly was. I was just ready to just push, push, and push. And that's exactly what I did. And I was not at all focused on anything related to balance, wellness, any of those buzzwords.
00:04:44
Speaker
The focus was put your head down and do the work. Right. and And in some ways that was good, right? Because I learned a lot and built a reputation all that stuff.
00:04:55
Speaker
But the problem is, and what I've learned, is that it's not sustainable. Right. And that was the issue. It was the sustainability. How do I continue? And if I were to add that to your intro, right? How do you continue to practice at high level while still maintaining your health in all of those
Realization and Lifestyle Changes
00:05:16
Speaker
aspects? Your mental health, physical health, spiritual health, emotional health, like you know all of the all of the health works.
00:05:23
Speaker
That was the part that I had to figure out. Was there a moment, i mean, I know that there was a point where like the work impacted your physical health, but was that the moment or was there a moment where you realized this isn't sustainable, ah to use your word? oh yeah Yeah, that was the moment. And, you know, it's unfortunate that that's how it had to happen, but sometimes you got to get like a really big like punch in the face to wake you up and to kind of change what you're doing and I don't I like to think it's human nature and it's not just me that's like that ah we're all stubborn I'm stubborn too yeah how big good feel thank you thank you for telling yes making me feel better so what happened there were actually two things the first thing that happened i was a around of fifth year so interesting that I had in my mind five years of push
00:06:17
Speaker
ye um And it was around 435 in the afternoon. i'm walking from my office to the bathroom. And thank God I was walking close to the wall because all of a sudden I felt this pain in my back.
00:06:31
Speaker
And I had never experienced that before. And i it was like this sharp pain, tears in my eyes. Like I was like, i i like you would have thought that somebody like hit me really hard, like right in my lower back.
00:06:43
Speaker
Yeah. And I was right outside of a conference room and I like hobbled like like literally like very carefully into the conference room, sat down and thought it would just pass. and And I was in so much pain.
00:06:56
Speaker
i felt like I couldn't walk. Luckily, my husband was in a meeting not far from my office that day. i call it. I mean, literally. And am I'm like, it's it's not even the end of the day yet. Right. And I'm like, I need you to come and get me.
00:07:09
Speaker
yeah Urgent care. And they said, oh, you threw out your back. And I was like...
00:07:18
Speaker
mean, I'm like 35, right? Walking in the hallway. Yeah, walking in the hallway. You know, I think of people who throw out their back as being either much older frankly, much more physical than I was at the time. And I was like, how did I... When I explained to the doctor, was like, I'm literally walking. I didn't do any, like, weird, you know what mean, like, crazy move or anything. And she said, no, that just is what happens.
00:07:39
Speaker
And I was out... Still working, of course, but I was out as in in home, like not in the office for two weeks, could hardly move. Then started going to physical therapy.
00:07:52
Speaker
Wow. This was all me because I've never done anything like this at all my life. And went to the physical therapist and she said to me, oh, this is from lack of motion.
00:08:05
Speaker
And I was like, what? And she said it in this way that was like so nonchalant. I was like, wait minute, on. Can you say that again? She said, yeah, you just need to move your body more. I said, so how do I have this never happen again? She said, you need to move your body more.
00:08:22
Speaker
She said, tell me about your day. And I said, well, my day, you know, get to the office, I sit down. And then about seven, eight o'clock, I stand out. You know what I mean? Like that's pretty much with like bouts of meetings in between. And she says, yeah, you don't move enough.
00:08:36
Speaker
You just simply need to move more. more And it was and was thunderstruck, honestly, a that I was having this physical thing happen to me that I caused.
00:08:49
Speaker
Yeah. And then B, the cause was lack of movement. Like, i you know what mean? Not even like there was skiing or some great story.
00:09:01
Speaker
No, right. Move more. So I said, OK. And it took me a good two months to really like rehab. I joined the gym. I was swimming and because walking was still kind of hard.
00:09:14
Speaker
I went past that. But then when I got back to the office, I said, all right, I need I don't want that. So I never want to experience that again. Right. So I need to move on. So some of the things that I did immediately to get more motion in my day, because what I couldn't do was do less work. Right. So I was like, OK, right. My schedule.
00:09:32
Speaker
As a mid-level associate. So i'm like how do I put more motion in? So some of the little tricks I had was I would go to the bathroom one floor down. so That's pretty good actually. you're doing – Yeah. Yeah, I got a couple of steps. And I had an unintended benefit of that – was the floor beneath me was the conference room floor.
00:09:54
Speaker
So I would run into all sorts of people, partners in other groups, associates, assistants, AV folks. Like I just like, I actually like made friends with lots of people because they would see me.
00:10:06
Speaker
Cause I'd be down to like three, four next day. So that was cool. And then you also avoided the running into a partner on the way to the bathroom on your own floor where they asked you like, that's also something that was good.
00:10:20
Speaker
Um, People listening know what I'm talking about, where you're like hiding out in your office. and All right. We'll be talking about that. so um So like walking more and um taking breaks during the day, going for lunch.
00:10:35
Speaker
Walking not to the close chops, but the chop that was farther away, you know, little things like that. And I just, and I got an activity tracker, you know, so I was able to track my steps. And fortunately, I got past that and I have never had ah back problem since.
00:10:51
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
Major Health Scare and Lifestyle Shifts
00:10:53
Speaker
But I wish I could say everything was better and, you know, roses from there. Because about a year after that, i was at a doctor's appointment and my doctor told me I had dangerously high blood pressure and said, if you still get your blood pressure under control, you're going to have to get on blood credit pressure medication.
00:11:12
Speaker
And I have the same sort of thunderstruck. Now I'm like 36. And I'm like, what? feel like, no this is not, this is not. Yeah. And so that it was those two things, those combination where I was like, okay, I really need to, I really need to address this in a real way, in a real way.
00:11:30
Speaker
Because I'm just, obviously the universe is telling me something and I don't need every year to keep on getting something happening to me. So two times, yeah.
00:11:40
Speaker
I'm there. I guess I have two sort of questions around that. Number one, you know, it's interesting that you describe all these sort of small modifications that you made to your lifestyle um or small habits that you changed.
00:11:55
Speaker
but Right. As opposed to, you know, Oh, my God, my solution needs to be I'm going to go and run the New York City Marathon or something. Right. um So like that's an observation. but i think there's also a question in there. Like, was that intentional? Did you really try to? And then, you know, I'm also curious, like, how did you try to after sort of the second case? Like, how did you try to maybe solve this in a slightly bigger way as well or or or make bigger changes to your lifestyle?
00:12:19
Speaker
yeah Yeah, good questions. So on the first, it's my my personality is such that I like small changes. So that's probably why I leaned into that versus let me do an Ironman or something.
00:12:34
Speaker
yeah um But also the reality was i had a particular work schedule and there were certain things that I had in control and certain things that I didn't.
00:12:45
Speaker
And so if I can only modulate like an hour or two of my day and let me try to optimize that. So that was the way I was thinking. Yeah.
00:12:55
Speaker
The idea of, well, let me just leave the practice of law and do something else. Let me leave this law firm and do something else that's maybe, that maybe get me home by six o'clock so I can train for the Ironman. You what I mean? Like, it's something I could have done, but I wasn't ready at all to leave my big law job. I was enjoying it. It was going great. So it was, how do you,
00:13:18
Speaker
do this job, when but but turn some things, right? Turn some levers so that you don't keep on getting doctors telling you ah crazy things every year.
00:13:32
Speaker
so It's really great advice, actually, because a lot of people can make improvements around the margins, right? Or have the ability to modify habits in small ways. It's tough to rejigger your whole life in some. Yeah. And I think...
00:13:44
Speaker
And I think when you take the smaller changes, of course, focusing on changes that actually have impacts, right? So don't call the small change that doesn't really impact anything because then when you don't see a change, you'll get frustrated or maybe you'll feel like, what's the point?
00:13:58
Speaker
he but So pick things that will actually... do something. Right. So I went from no steps a day two right right like 5,000 steps, which was not 10,000, which is the goal, but five was better than zero when I did see a difference.
00:14:12
Speaker
Yeah. um But then also I think it's just easier to think and easier to commit to smaller changes. and Speaking completely for myself.
00:14:25
Speaker
here when I learned to cook, I didn't start with Thanksgiving dinner.
00:14:33
Speaker
I said, let me learn and make an omelet. Okay, good. Omelet is made. Now let me and let me do that. And then all of a sudden, I could put together a whole meal and like multiple courses and whatever whatever, you know what I mean? So but that's that's the approach that I take. I think it's just the more sustainable way um to to approach change.
00:14:52
Speaker
Again, for me. how um How did you know that you were ready to leave big law then at at some point in time and and go in-house?
Transition to In-house Role
00:15:01
Speaker
and And how did you make that that choice or that that pivot?
00:15:05
Speaker
um Yeah. Yeah. that that So a few things, but mostly it came down to i was ready to do something else. if I'm I've always been this way where things have to feel right.
00:15:23
Speaker
And I, I trust myself, you know, I trust my instinct and my intuition. Yes. things And when something is not feeling like it's where I should be anymore, i don't question it too much. i mean, ill question it a little bit, but i don't question it too much.
00:15:41
Speaker
So yeah, I got to eight years in I said, OK, I think I'm ready to do something else now. And that was it. Went for it. um How did you find the sort of scope of responsibility or the stress between the two sorts of types of legal work
Role of a General Counsel
00:16:04
Speaker
compared? You know, when you joined Resi as you On the one hand, you don't have like a bunch of clients breathing down your neck, you don't partnership structure, and you're not tied to the billable hour. and right
00:16:15
Speaker
But on the other hand, I think a lot of times folks find that that's sort of in-house role, especially when you're the GC. um the stakes feel a little higher for you and it feels a little more personal. And yeah, I don't know Talk to us a little bit about that.
00:16:29
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. being being a Being in house, certainly a GC, but but being in house in general versus being in the law firm are horses of completely different color, even though it's the same profession. And I, the pros and cons of both.
00:16:46
Speaker
evan You know what I mean? like and And i'm I'm glad for my time at the firm because my time at the firm prepared me for this. I couldn't have done this job had I left as a fifth year.
00:16:57
Speaker
Right. Like I ah needed that seasoning, that time at the firm. come um But one of the things, there's a lot of things, but one of the major things I would say is the difference is the buck stops with you when you're in-house.
00:17:13
Speaker
And when you're in-house, everything is kind of a big deal. And by that, I mean this, that, Of course, when you are talking with the team and you're working through a product, that's obviously like mission critical stuff, right?
00:17:31
Speaker
But there are also smaller questions and decisions that you really got to get right because they could then have and impact. So something as simple as, oh, we want to hire this person. Do we bring them on as an employee or an independent contractor?
00:17:46
Speaker
Well, those are two very different things. Right. Like, well, you got to ask some questions. And what you don't want to do is run afoul of Department of Labor laws. Right. So. Right.
00:17:57
Speaker
Even though this question is just as like this quick question that comes over slack, likely, it's still important and it still takes like your whole big lawyer brain. And so all of the hours in-house are better generally.
00:18:13
Speaker
and That's the big secret. Don't tell anybody. ah But like that they are better generally. Mm-hmm. Probably single decision is like Full body contact sport.
00:18:26
Speaker
Whereas when you're when you're outside counsel, every deal is full body. But then you have ego from deal to deal to deal. And you have these like dips. I don't have it as GC.
00:18:38
Speaker
Because if I'm not as busy, those questions, those independent you know contractor versus employee you know questions still come up that I need to like show up for mentally.
00:18:49
Speaker
he oh Are there strategies that you used in the early days as being a GC or that you've learned over time to help you sort of wind down or to help you create space for yourself?
00:19:04
Speaker
Because I think that's what you're you're hitting on, something that I've heard from a number of folks, which is, you know, at the firm, it might be like work, work, work, work work on this deal, but you know what the end game is. And what, right, as opposed to, i mean, there's there's always something else you could do for your business, right? I mean, yeah. yeah you The to-do list never ends.
00:19:27
Speaker
um The wind down, that has been a um a process for me to figure out what, and it it has also changed as I've gotten older and wiser, of what I would use to wind down. So when I was younger, for me going out, hanging out with friends, that was wind down.
00:19:54
Speaker
Now, I still love to do that, but when we're really talking about wind down, it's yoga class.
Aggressive Self-Care Practices
00:20:03
Speaker
he spending time with my husband. It's taking a walk around the neighborhood that I i find that to be rejuvenating and relaxing.
00:20:12
Speaker
So um it it has changed. and i But I'm really intentional about it. But there's one thing out one thing that I do, and i actually did it, was it last week or week before? was two weeks ago. I call them aggressive self-care days.
00:20:26
Speaker
Okay. And what I do is I take a day off of work. here I let everybody know. Tyler, I'm going to be off next Wednesday. And I'm telling you this like a week in, know what I mean? Like I'm letting you And I, on that day, i just do what I want to do.
00:20:45
Speaker
There's no chores. There's no taking care of other people. It's a day full of whatever K-E-T-A feels like doing. Yeah. Yeah. I find those days to be incredibly rejuvenating. Yeah.
00:20:59
Speaker
And legit, I do it like twice a year. So it's not even that much, but it has a massive, massive impact. And I can and i can feel when I need it. but i'm wow You know what I mean? Like you're around really tight and you're like, you know what? I need a day just to just to release.
00:21:15
Speaker
Yeah. I'll say for anybody listening who wants to take on, like, try this. Here's a tip. So made you to tell your job, but don't forget to tell your family. Because one that morning of my aggressive self-care day, my husband says, oh, Keita, can you do, and then lists off three things.
00:21:35
Speaker
And I look at him, he looks at me, he's like, what? Aren't you off today? You have time. I said, I am off today, but no, I do not have time. am doing me today, so I will get to those things, but not today.
00:21:51
Speaker
And he looked at me a little bit like I was crazy. And then he was like, okay. And I was i was like, we've done this before. Like, you know what this is. And he's like, okay, okay. And he hed he dropped it. but So don't forget about your family.
00:22:02
Speaker
It's the point. so it's not It's not the day to hang the TV on the wall no or reorganize the garage or... Once a life, Tyler, those things truly give you joy.
00:22:14
Speaker
Right. but But if it's on your to-do list of things that need to be done, but it doesn't actually give you joy, don't do it on these days.
00:22:24
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:22:35
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:22:58
Speaker
Links in the description. I love that idea. um Okay. This is a speaking of wind downs, different transition. Oh, different auto wind down. Yes. yeah um You know, Rezzy, while you were there, shut down in 2023. And I've had a few guests on couple, at least who've who've been through that sort of experience. And it's certainly not an easy one.
00:23:24
Speaker
yeah especially when you're in the GCC, because you're often one of the last people, if not the last person there to turn out the lights. how um Curious for you to tell us a little bit about that experience and also how you processed that as you know an individual in your first GC role, how you process that professionally, thinking about, okay, what what am I going to do next?
00:23:46
Speaker
um Yeah, tell tell us about it. So experiencing a wind down is something unlike anything I've ever experienced before. And I don't think that there's any thing that you can compare it to.
00:23:58
Speaker
So for the folks who've gone through it, you know what I mean. And the folks who haven't, i hope you never do, honestly. um Because it is very, very challenging on many levels. And what you just said, it's you know professionally, but also personally.
00:24:11
Speaker
For me, I can recall... feeling a level of physical stress that I had never felt before because it's, you're trying to wind down a company in the most responsible way.
00:24:27
Speaker
You also have the human side of you had all these employees who dedicated so much time. So you're, so, so you're, you're dealing with, with them and with that, and you want to make sure that they land as well as possible.
00:24:40
Speaker
And then all of the things, you know, the creditors and the vendors that, you know, kind of things that you think of. um But then you also have your own thoughts on, gosh, I thought this was going to go differently.
00:24:53
Speaker
i mean, and but it's it's tech startup. It's not um so strange for a company to wind down, but it still is a challenging thing to go through it. And so I found myself, as I said, feeling a level, physical level of stress, reminding me of back in those days when I was experiencing the high blood pressure. And I can actually like, I don't know how to describe it, but like I can feel it. I didn't need to check check my pressure to know what was going on.
00:25:19
Speaker
And i said, i need a Like an escape. What do you call those things? Like the like the steam when you release the steam. Yeah. Like an escape. that yeah Yeah. Yeah. And I have I've taken yoga since college and I have found myself coming in and out of the yoga studio often when things were the hardest in my life.
00:25:40
Speaker
So sometimes third year studying for the bar. Like there are these moments where I look in the studio every day. And somebody said, I need to go back to yoga. And during this wind down, I was going to yoga every single day, hot yoga,
00:25:57
Speaker
And it was the it was the thing that kept me sane. It was the thing that released the pressure. i found myself coming out of the studio after that physical workshop work works work work um work and that really good sweat feeling very clear.
00:26:14
Speaker
then I could sit back at the computer with a clear mind because things move so fast. And you have to decisions very, very quickly. and And when you're making these decisions, you have to consider all of the pieces. You know what I mean? So it's so it's it's it's winding down to companies unlike kind of day-to-day legal work, for sure. So you have to bring everything to bear.
00:26:35
Speaker
And if you are not good and you are not clear-minded, then I dare say that, let's just say, it'll be a whole lot harder do Yeah.
Yoga's Role in Stress Management
00:26:46
Speaker
So that that was yoga bogus aimed me through that experience. It really did.
00:26:53
Speaker
There's no ifs, ands, ands, ands about that one. Anything that you learned, you know, it's a very high-pressure sort of situation, and things are also going wrong, or these are tough decisions that are being made. yeah And different people respond to that, I think, and may in better ways than others, right? Like, anything that you learned or that you took away from it, you know,
00:27:14
Speaker
in terms of how you want to carry yourself as as a leader ah you know within within ah within an organization? well One thing, well, two things.
00:27:24
Speaker
I will say, i will give myself a compliment and I'll give myself grace. Yeah. And say that I kind of always knew I was good in crisis scenes, but I discovered I'm really good.
00:27:38
Speaker
That i I, stayed calm. I stayed clear headed. you know i don't let my emotions take over everything. my thoughts or even take a moment and maybe that was yoga. Maybe that was, yeah, that's what, that's what helped me. I don't know.
00:27:56
Speaker
um but I, I was really impressed with myself and, and, you know, that may sound a little silly, but I think you gotta give yourself a high five when you, um, the other thing is certainly integrity. Hmm. Integrity is really important through the process because you're,
00:28:21
Speaker
you are in a situation where you're winding the company down and you are dealing with, as I said, all the different constituents. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:28:32
Speaker
Nobody's walking away how they hoped they would walk away. here And there is just a level of honesty that you have to have and you have speak, right? And and say, okay, this is where we are. this is what we can do.
00:28:49
Speaker
And this is this is what I've got, right? And use and you don't you don't run from the hard conversations and you... And you and you you say what you mean and you mean what you say. And it's so simple. But it's but in those really hard moments, it's actually really, really difficult to do that.
00:29:06
Speaker
he You kind of like stand on your own integrity and on your own word. When was it that you decided to start becoming a yoga
Becoming a Yoga Instructor
00:29:14
Speaker
instructor? Was it like during this experience, before this experience? is that a new thing?
00:29:19
Speaker
well I'll tell you, it was actually the very first yoga class that I took my sophomore year in college. i knew that I would eventually become a yoga teacher. ahhah I had in my mind, because i was yoga for me was an immediate, from the first class, I was like, I love this.
00:29:35
Speaker
Yeah. And I had in my mind that I would be retired. And i kind of pictured myself like this like older woman with like gray locks and like a cow stand. You know what i mean? Like colorful beads. like That's how i was kind of thinking.
00:29:50
Speaker
Yeah. It's not what ended up happening, but that's what I was thinking. And then in the in the transition out of Rezzy into Rise, when I was thinking about And what next? And you know what?
00:30:05
Speaker
I have always thought about this. It's always been in the back of my mind. And there's no time like the present because you do not know what's going to happen tomorrow. So let me do this now.
00:30:17
Speaker
And that's literally it was. I love that. yeah i love that um What excites you about or or what got you excited about taking on another GC role and and moving to Rise and saying, you know, okay, this didn't end quite how we expected, but now going to go and I'm going to do it all over again, hopefully with a different result.
00:30:38
Speaker
Yeah.
Joining RISE and Maintaining Balance
00:30:40
Speaker
Well, I can remember when Sean, who was the CEO with Rezzy and also is the CEO with Rise, said, so I have an idea.
00:30:49
Speaker
and I was like, I can't, Sean. i just need a second. I need a second. And then I took a breath. I said, OK, okay let me hear your idea. And um he he told me the idea for Rise. And I was like, oh, that's brilliant.
00:31:03
Speaker
I love it. It's amazing. Yes, that sounds really good. And I didn't know that he was going to offer me the GC job. Like, you know, we were just having a conversation. and then when he did, he said to me something that has stayed with me. He said, you know, i know, you know, you're a great lawyer. Like, I've experienced that with you now. you said But I want you in this job. Like, having worked with you through the transition out of a company. Mm-hmm.
00:31:31
Speaker
you saw not just my legal skills, but also my, like who I was. right um And he said, yeah, I want you, i want you to be the GC.
00:31:43
Speaker
So I thought about it because I was thinking for a second, like, do I, but but you know, like, do I, read do I need a break? Like, yeah. And I said, yes, I do need a break, but this opportunity is amazing.
00:31:57
Speaker
So I'm going to jump. And oh i'll take I'll take the break, you know, like it maybe like little mini breaks.
00:32:06
Speaker
But I don't want to miss this chance and this opportunity. So so I said, hell yeah, I'm in. I mean, mini breaks. I think when we first talked to start prepping for this, you were at a yoga retreat, but still taking some calls in the Dominican Republic. um You know, are there are there ways that you think about...
00:32:27
Speaker
sustainability of your energy now in different, you know, in different ways, having been through all of these different experiences or setting boundaries in different ways? Like, how do you put that into practice maybe today?
00:32:40
Speaker
So I think about it as an and and not an or. And by that, I mean, i am a hardworking talented, super smart, get the job done, etct cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
00:32:58
Speaker
And i take care of myself. And the two must coexist because i know from experience, personal experience, that if you don't take care of the latter, the former person,
00:33:13
Speaker
is going to go away. like you know If you can't walk, you know what I mean? like yeah And you're in so much pain, how good can you be in the practice of loss? So I am very, very committed to doing both.
00:33:30
Speaker
And I'm very committed in creating space in my day. So when I have my morning walks or I have my evening yoga, it's on my calendar.
00:33:42
Speaker
And it's blocked. And so people know. but but the trade-off is if I'm in a yoga class, let's say I'm in 6.30 to 7.30 class and something's going on, the trade-off is 7.45.
00:33:56
Speaker
Yeah. I'm back on. Right. I don't say oh yoga. I'll talk to you tomorrow. Right. You know, and and and sometimes that doesn't feel the best. Like you kind of want to just like chill after a yoga class.
00:34:09
Speaker
But if something is going on I'm still the good lawyer. Right. And so that's the and. That's the and heart. Yeah. There's something else I want to ask you about that sort of idea of being a good lawyer or like being you know really good at your job. um And it's around this sort of concept of like high standards or people you know wanting to get things right all the time. or And I think that's a transition that a lot of people make from – you know it to Okay, technically it is possible to make sure there's no typos in a document that's 100 pages or you know to get the like logo perfectly right on every single slide that you send to the client. i mean those things
00:34:49
Speaker
But um how how is your thinking on like what it means to hold yourself to high standards? How has that thinking evolved over time here and what it means to be a good lawyer too?
00:35:00
Speaker
Yes. So this is something at Resi. um I'm a solo right now, but at Resi, I have a small team. And this was something that we talked about a lot.
00:35:12
Speaker
Because being the big law trains lawyer, down to the file name, haven't even convinced.
00:35:24
Speaker
However, we've got to move. Right. Like where we are in a fast paced, high growth venture baths sort of.
00:35:36
Speaker
So you cannot take an extra two hours to make sure that everything is perfect. However, you should take the extra two hours if there is a material point that needs to be fixed in these. it so So like you've got to figure out what is mission critical and what critical.
00:35:54
Speaker
What would be great to do if I had an extra day? I'll put it like that. Sure. And sometimes those two can become fuzzy as the perfectionist lawyer that I am and most people most people are. And it's to keep the line separate.
00:36:13
Speaker
Now, I certainly have looked at a contract that I've drafted later and be like, you know, I could have said that in a little bit of a better way. And I ask myself, but is it correct?
00:36:24
Speaker
And if a judge was looking at it, would he or she interpret it the way that you meant? If the answer is yes, then you're okay. Right? So, whereas at the firm, it would be, it would be like the absolute right, best, perfect, using all the right adjectives and you know what I mean? um and And so you have to, you have to make those decisions because What you cannot do as a lawyer anywhere, but certainly in my job, is you cannot slow the business down.
00:36:57
Speaker
he I have built an incredible amount of trust with the business where if I say I need, this happened actually earlier today. One the businessmen called me and I said, I need 30 minutes.
00:37:09
Speaker
He knows that I really do need 30 minutes before I answer the question. And he knows I'm not just making it up or there she goes You know what mean? Like being a perfectionist or not understanding what's important.
00:37:22
Speaker
You got to keep an eye on what's important. Where does that come from? Is that just judgment that's sort of like honed over time? Judgment, yeah. now yeah And yeah certainly.
00:37:33
Speaker
And and The question is, what is it that you're trying to accomplish? And the second question is, if you don't accomplish it, what would be the fallout?
00:37:46
Speaker
What would be the result? Yeah. So going back to the example of the sentence that was not perfectly written. Yeah. If the result is what you wrote, a judge or an arbiter can decide that what you meant was not what you meant.
00:38:06
Speaker
That's important, right? he But if the result is somebody would look at this and chuckle and be like, i can't believe this lawyer wrote it that way, you know? Sure, nobody wants to be laughed at, right? in Yeah.
00:38:20
Speaker
But that, the result is something that you can live with, particularly if if what is going to fix the second part, like, you know, the rewriting of the sentence is you take an extra 20 minutes when the salesperson is on the phone with the client saying, oh, the contract is coming right now. 20 minutes, you know, and and the person is ready to sign.
00:38:43
Speaker
No, who no. Leave the sentence. Take the chuckle. Yeah. yeah like So it's so it's judgment. But the judgment has been honed with understanding risk is not quite the right word, but kind of the well what would happen if he kind of thinking.
00:39:03
Speaker
Maybe last substantive question before we get to some of my traditional closing questions for my guests. Yes. ah it's It's how you balance this with um self-compassion, ah which I think is something that everybody, probably everybody that I've ever had on is working on, even if I don't ask them
Overcoming Self-Doubt as a Lawyer
00:39:23
Speaker
about it.
00:39:23
Speaker
but ah How do I balance it with self-compassion? um so
00:39:33
Speaker
I'm going to answer that a little differently because sure I don't think, and I'll think about this later and maybe I'll have a different answer as I'm like tonight running this conversation all through my head, speaking of perfectionism.
00:39:48
Speaker
um But i don't think that self-compassion is something I struggle with. What I have struggled with and I have... had a lot of growth in is believing in myself and believing that I am a good lawyer. I am kind of all of the, all of the things that I know I am.
00:40:10
Speaker
hmm. That has been a journey because for some reason it took me years to embrace the idea that I actually knew what I was doing.
00:40:22
Speaker
hey And the transition actually happened when I was going from big law to in-house. And it was a conversation with my big brother.
00:40:33
Speaker
was at my birthday party. And he puts his armor on my brother. If you haven't, if you met him, you've kind of he's like one of these like sage, like always says, always like a little bit ridiculous. Like it's like equal parts. Like it's great. He's he's he's great. So he puts his arm around me. So I don't know what he's about to say because it could go either way.
00:40:53
Speaker
Right. and And he says to me, Keita, it's time for you to step into your light. And then he walks away. Right. And I'm standing there like, what does that mean?
00:41:05
Speaker
And I said, I know what it means. I need this. I need to believe in myself. I need to go into this next job with all confidence, because if I have the confidence, then they're going to believe in me.
00:41:19
Speaker
Yeah. so And the opposite is also true. So that self, I don't even know, self-love. Belief. Belief, belief.
00:41:29
Speaker
I was like, love. so That's never a question. Self-belief. we That has been the thing that has been a journey for me. And i have seen how much better of a lawyer I am when I believe that I am. And I, and I began to believe it.
00:41:48
Speaker
And now I know now you can't, you can't tell me, youre right? Yeah. definitely know it's true, but I needed that moment to kind of break out of my own negative thinking. Mm-hmm.
00:42:00
Speaker
And you know one of my favorite quotes is, and I don't know who actually said it, so whatever. um but So I've like taken it on myself now. But it it the quote is, perhaps the journey is not becoming anything, but it's unbecoming the things that you're not.
00:42:13
Speaker
And I feel like I had to unbecome this person who did not believe in herself. here And then with that shedding was like, oh, wow, look who this is.
00:42:26
Speaker
She's awesome. so What a great answer. yeah Really great answer. Okay, Keita, your favorite way to, and maybe it's yoga, to unwind or reset after a long day or your favorite part of your day to day.
00:42:45
Speaker
Take us through that. Okay, so definitely yoga. is um Walks. I find walks. That was actually another thing I should have mentioned during the wind down.
00:42:58
Speaker
he That also was a lifesaver. Just 20 minutes outside. Get some sun on your face. Close the laptop. Like just being away from the thing that is causing the stress is an incredible de-stressor to go back to it.
00:43:14
Speaker
So, so yeah, right now for me is is certainly walking, certainly yoga. um What was the other question? Oh, dave just like favorite part of your day to day. Is it yoga or is it ah is it something else?
00:43:28
Speaker
hard all day Well, I've got to say something about Rise. Yeah. ah yeah um the Favorite part. So today's the last day of the month and it's always a push, right? Last the month.
00:43:43
Speaker
And I just love how well the team works with each other. Yeah. And everybody is so smart. Everybody's so talented. And it just sort of like there's like this like great synergy amongst people. And everybody kind of brings their expertise the problem or to the thing.
00:44:05
Speaker
And it's very, very cool. And I never feel like I'm working against, you know, I'm if never like, oh, here she comes. Here comes the lawyer. You know what I mean? It's never where that. um So so it today was a very busy day.
00:44:18
Speaker
and it reminded me of how awesome this team is. That's great. and Okay, I think this is kind of a
Pet Peeves and Book Recommendations
00:44:26
Speaker
funny one. I like asking people this question.
00:44:29
Speaker
Do you have a professional pet peeve? but So my name is Keita D'Souza. Yes. I have heard some people say is a challenging name.
00:44:44
Speaker
ah My pet peeve, and i I never really understood this, is if you see a name like mine written... It's fair to assume that maybe you don't know how to say it because these are no neither name is an English name.
00:45:01
Speaker
So why not just ask? And so my so my pet peeve is when people say my name or other names that are maybe not in the person's language and they just make it up.
00:45:18
Speaker
Mm-hmm. But what's really the problem is not so much the makeup. It's the not acknowledging that you made it up. Yeah. And so yeah butchering the name and then just moving on.
00:45:28
Speaker
And it's like, it's my name. It's the most basic way that you you identify me. So it just feels like, please take the time or simply say, butcher it and then say, did I say that correctly?
00:45:40
Speaker
Right. now I'll say, oh, no, thank you for asking. It's actually this. So. that's that's one That's one of them. And for the record, folks should not feel scared because you've corrected me. or not correct. Corrected is not the right word, but you you've you've guided me.
00:45:57
Speaker
yeah and and i'll And I'll say this. It's like a PSA for everybody who has a quote unquote difficult name, which I don't like that designation, but I'll use um is we know that we have quote unquote name it's not a shock to us so when you ask nobody's going to be like i can't believe you don't know how to say casey de souza like right no of course not so and i'm like thank you so much for asking then people then will say like where is it from and they could turn into a very nice conversation even if it doesn't please please just ask
00:46:30
Speaker
It's a great, it's a good answer and not one that I've heard before on this podcast, which is good. and Okay. Is there a book that you would recommend for our listeners to read?
00:46:41
Speaker
Yes. So like a true Gemini, i have types of books. So I did prepare for this. um So I'm reading and I'm looking at my notes. I don't want to mispronounce the name.
00:46:54
Speaker
offer The author's name is Alison Fregale, I believe. right yuhan The book is called Likeable Badass. So I um this book was recommended to me by a group of women that I recently met.
00:47:11
Speaker
And a bunch of people from this group said this is the book that they are reading or have read or that you really loved. And I picked it up. I'm only on chapter three, Tyler. And I'm already, a going to read it again. Because there's a lot going on.
00:47:26
Speaker
And then, B, I know this is a book I'm going to come back to yearly. well it is That's high praise. Yes. So the book is kind of... Lightweight blow in my mind.
00:47:37
Speaker
And it's just chapter three. So I might have to pick that one up. That sounds really interesting. Likeable badass. Let me know what you think. um And then on the health and wellness side, of course, I have health and wellness books.
00:47:50
Speaker
China Study by T. Colin Campbell and Never Be Sick Again by Francis. Gosh, what's his last name? What's ever written here?
00:48:01
Speaker
Raymond Francis. Raymond Francis. Both excellent books. I read them yearly. I don't want to give away what they're about, but they are about the connection between, well, China studies the connection between what you eat and your health.
00:48:17
Speaker
here Like a research perspective. Well written and interesting. Don't worry. It's not like a boring book. And then um never be Never Be Sick Again talks about what I was saying earlier about this idea that wellness is all of the things. It's your health.
00:48:33
Speaker
It's your emotional. And he and he kind of goes through chapter by chapter to help you really think about these different areas of your life. So... I've read them all multiple times, and each time I read them, either I'm reminded of something or learned something new. so I love them.
00:48:48
Speaker
Both of us books. We'll put all three of those in the in the show notes. I like it when my guests come with multiple book recommendations. I i read like six books at once. It takes me a long time to get through them. So I...
00:49:03
Speaker
yeah And can I make a fun book recommendation? Oh, of course, please. Yeah. So I am almost done with RuPaul's autobiography. It's really good.
00:49:14
Speaker
i love it. Yeah. Super entertaining. Some really great lessons. It's called. Oh, gosh, I'm blanking on the name. ohs I'll tell you. You can put in the show notes. Yeah.
00:49:26
Speaker
ah But it's it's so good. So. Amazing. um Okay, last question for you. Yes. My traditional closing questions question for my guests.
Advice for Young Lawyers
00:49:39
Speaker
It's, you know, if you could look back on your days as a young lawyer, just getting started maybe at the firm, something that you know now that you wish that you'd known back then.
00:49:52
Speaker
no So many things. Just one. um so Well, certainly top of minds is take care of yourself.
00:50:04
Speaker
here Take care of, don't just work, work, work really hard and take care of yourself. And I'll also say what I said just now is I wonder what would have happened had I understood earlier how good of a lawyer I am.
00:50:24
Speaker
ah But had that confidence. ah I don't know. Probably the exact same life, but interesting question. A great question to ask. ah I don't know if we've ended on a question like that before. Keita, this has been so much fun. Thank you for joining me for this episode of The Abstract.
00:50:43
Speaker
Thank you, Tyler. Thank you for having me. And to all of our listeners, thank you so much for tuning in. And we hope to see you next time.