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Podcast 24 - What is going on in this house
48 Plays16 days ago
Join us for part 2 of our house cleaning topic
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Transcript
Introduction: Jesus and the Modern Church
00:00:10
Speaker
Hey, welcome back to Grove Hill Church podcast. We are excited you are here with us today. My friends Kyle and John on either side of me and we're coming back to the subject we left you with last week. An opportunity to talk a little bit about what Jesus might see in his bride that really doesn't make him thrilled.
00:00:27
Speaker
It's a nice way to put it, right? yeah We refer back to the story of Jesus, and and if you have not heard that, i encourage you to go back and watch last week's because we kind of straighten out some misconceptions about Jesus cleansing the temple. But we bring that story forward.
Has the Church Lost Its Spiritual Focus?
00:00:42
Speaker
In that story, Jesus makes this great quote out of the Old Testament. My man John's got that pulled up here.
00:00:49
Speaker
the question we're kind asking is, called by my name become a din of robbers in your view yes i too have seen it and this is the lord's declaration so the question we're kind of asking today is Does Jesus look at his modern bride where it is in the current condition and say, has my house lost its power? Is my house focused on some of the wrong things? And so we talked last week about several things like churches that are operating without the power of prayer, churches that are focused more on numbers than they are on the conversion of people from ah a way of lostness towards being in a relationship with Jesus. So we're going to bring up a couple other ones.
Pride vs. Servanthood in Church Leadership
00:01:30
Speaker
the the weirdness of, is that the right way to say it? Sure. The weirdness of church leadership today without real humility. Pride in how it's destroying the the staffs and administrations of churches.
00:01:46
Speaker
Well, I'm going to turn to John 13 real quick. All right. And this is after Jesus washed the disciples' feet. And, uh, He said, do you understand what I have done for you? He asked them, you call me teacher and Lord and rightly so, for this is what I am.
00:02:02
Speaker
Now that I, your Lord, your teacher have washed your feet, you should also wash the feet of one another. And so this was the Lord of the universe, right? Every right to be superior above all, every right to say, nah, I'm not going to stoop down that low. My church is doing great, right? I can i can operate from up here. And yet he set the example by saying, no, I'm going to wash the feet of the disciples, which was a servant's job.
00:02:27
Speaker
Right. And so ah our example of leadership in scripture, the one we follow Jesus is an example of of servanthood. And so I think we can get in that mindset of, oh, I'm too good to do this, or I'm not going to go stack the chairs. That's someone else's job. yeah And in a church,
00:02:47
Speaker
the way that a a healthy leadership function is to serve alongside the people. Yeah, Mark 10 too is that same thing. I remember that verse because we've got it on one of our shirts yeah where it's initiating the
The Dangers of Pride and Need for Accountability
00:03:00
Speaker
same thing. Jesus came to serve, like to be a model of service. And he came to serve those who would serve others. So it's it's this modeling deal. You know, Paul did it to Timothy. And there's so many instances of passing on of the faith. And that doesn't... really get done well if there's not humility. And so in the form of Jesus flipping some things over in the the modern day church,
00:03:27
Speaker
um it only lasts for a season. You see the, how do I say, you see the path of destruction. You ever seen a tornado and see what it leaves in its wake? yeah That is what leadership without humility leaves in its wake. And what you see sometimes, and sadly, you see people that maybe God really did gift and really did call yeah absolutely grow numb and cold to the ministry because it's like,
00:03:54
Speaker
and i got a taste of this and i'm in and if they're not grounded sometimes you get a whole lot of oh if this is what i see i don't want any of it so it there's damage and a ricochet effect in a lot of different about every three or four weeks i come to my staff and and will share a story that i have read and and sadly it's almost on a daily basis but just every three or four weeks about leaders in the church and in parachurch organizations who have failed morally and ethically. And and it's never, at least in stories you hear, it's never a guy waking up one day and going, hey, how can I bring down my my marriage? How can I bring down my church? How can I destroy my reputation? It starts with subtle changes that they make, compromises they make. They slip out of accountability or refuse to have that accountability in their lives.
00:04:41
Speaker
And then I point it all back to the idea of pride. I can do this on my own. yeah And we, we and like so many other ministries nowadays, we draw some hard lines around here about You know, you you can't do certain certain things. You can't be alone in certain situations. There's always got to be accountability. And the reason we do that because I know, especially us guys, pride is a sneaky monster. yeah this when When pride takes over, it it puts you in a position of you saying, oh I'll never be touched by that sin, right? Like, I'm i'm above that. Well, as soon as you say those words, Satan's like, I've got you, right? yeah and Because that's when you're that's when you're going to fall. And so to be always be aware to say, uh, man, I am susceptible to these types of things. What are the safeguards I could put in place? I remember talking to a teenager and he was about to get into a relationship with a girl. and I said, Hey, what are the dangers of sin going into this that are going to rear their head? head And he's like,
00:05:33
Speaker
None. And I'm like, holy smokes, right? He was so full of pride that he didn't think that he was susceptible to sexual immorality or anything like that, that he was like, I've got this. yeah False. yeah Right? And so um we need to be constantly assessing our surroundings and saying, okay,
00:05:51
Speaker
what sins are close and how do I guard my heart from those things. yeah And what we've found this year is the theme of the year is memorizing scripture is to hide God's word in our heart that we might not sin against him. That's right. Dr. Walker, ah it actually was not a class I was taking at all, but I stepped in on one class and I stayed the whole semester. Wow.
00:06:13
Speaker
I didn't pay for it, didn't get credit for it. it Hear me out. then it It was an ethics class and in one of the conversations. we yeah It was wonderful. It ethics? Yeah. So you cheated a class out of it? No, no, technically, but I didn't get any credit. he said, you can stay in here, Mr. Ballard. Okay, you got it. But in this, he said exactly what you had mentioned earlier.
00:06:37
Speaker
All of us. It doesn't matter what platform we're on. If we think we're, you know, the most listened to, you know, Billy Graham eque type of platform or whether we're in a local church. And I say this to those of you who are listening, whatever role of leadership you have, maybe it's the role of leadership in your own home.
00:06:53
Speaker
we are only one or two decisions away from where we never thought we would ever be. sure yeah You go and Kyle and I have had these conversations. I know we've had multiple conversations, but you've worked in a jail before. yeahp ah Most of those guys, probably five years before they entered in, didn't say, oh yeah, I see myself in here for the next 10 years. ah But it's those decisions without prudence, without guidance, without boundaries. And you think you got it? Yeah.
00:07:21
Speaker
all comes back to pride. yeah yeah yeah I think a question that we need to ask ourselves in the modern church is if Jesus walked into our staff meetings today, how much humility would he see?
Balancing Truth and Sensitivity in Church
00:07:32
Speaker
you know how how much How many people would he see washing other people's feet? yeah Another subject, another really good one. The fear of offending others over the fear of offending God. Yeah, welcome to 21st century America. Right there, baby. um Truth is... um
00:07:54
Speaker
truth is edited down watered down it's compromised because we're afraid that somebody's going to hear and is uh going to take their ball and go home yeah we we care so much about how people perceive us yes that we will manipulate our character in light of someone else's eyes yeah and so if they if we think that they're you know gonna judge us for some reason and we won't speak truth um I've said this before on this podcast before, but it's coming to mind right now. The song from Petra. It says, some may call me foolish, some may call me odd. I'd rather be seen as a fool in the eyes of man than be seen as a fool in the eyes of God, right? We have a standard to keep from Scripture. um Your friends aren't going to be the ones standing at the gates of heaven
00:08:36
Speaker
with the judgment. That's right. Right? it's It's the Lord of the universe who created what he had for us. And so we answer to him. And so our response to people shouldn't be for their ears. It should be for truth standing before our Lord. And so it's just, it's a a sticky situation when we start to try to please other people and care about what they think to the point of it character changes our character standing in front of the Lord.
00:09:00
Speaker
Yeah, we can't bend the standard of truth. You know, God is the standard. It's like i mentioned this analogy the other day. It's like looking at a straight stick. You know, we can always say, ah well, oh, I'm not as crooked as they are. You know, but that's not the standard. The standard is this straight thing.
00:09:19
Speaker
expectation or understanding of who God is, we need to follow this and follow what it is perceived in the light of God and how it views up and towards Him, not towards anybody else. But we have gotten so much in the the mindset of looking to the right or left. It's always the keep up game. You know, we call it the rat race here in America and it's it's it's exhausting. i Like, sorry, it's it will kill you. Yeah, I can't remember. It was about a year ago we came across it and I can't remember as Paul saying where he said it, but he said, I care very little about your opinion in light of the gospel, right? um And it and it wasn't he wasn't trying to be rude to anybody.
00:09:59
Speaker
But he was saying, man's opinion carries no weight in my life. It's all it's all decided by what the Lord says. And so um bending to the needs of people is probably one of the biggest faults of the church. It comes back to us wanting to make them comfortable and wanting them to come back. But you know what? Some people aren't. because of some yes Here's the thing. Some people aren't meant to come back. right And so you lay out truth.
00:10:24
Speaker
And if they're so offended by it that they run, then that's their heart. And so if you lay out truth and someone attaches to it, ah that's the saints that are being equipped to go change the world. It's interesting you mentioned that verse because I was trying to think of it Sunday when I made the comment at church that one of the greatest god gifts God has given me in recent years is that I'm getting so old that I don't care anymore.
00:10:45
Speaker
you know, I just I don't. I don't care what people think about me. I don't care. if they you know If they have a differing opinion, albeit going to happen, Come sit down and talk to me if you want to. But if you want to go to another church, feel free. We're gathering a group of people who are going to build their lives around this word, who are going to to do it without compromising. And here's the thing that causes me to be humbled. It's this thought right here.
00:11:12
Speaker
We sit in the comfort of this office right now, and we talk about, man, we are not going to compromise God's truth. But when real persecution comes, are we really going to be those guys? Right. you know right are we really going to be those guys and i would venture a guess to say if we compromise and begin to let pride creep up on us then absolutely not we'll fold the first chance we have but if you two can get old like me and stop caring what people think about you no i'm just kidding i'm pretty much there i got i got some things to learn uh yeah it out to your note really of not caring what people think the more and more I get older and the more that we've talked about this and there's an audience of one. We do everything. And I say this from the time that we wake up to the time that we go to bed.
00:11:59
Speaker
Everybody else is getting the byproduct of us looking to the audience of one. now that There is no audience of multiples because sometimes we compartmentalize Right.
00:12:10
Speaker
But it's truly, ah we shouldn't care about the the opinions of others because many times it drives our motivations in some scary paths. All right, let's turn to one more before we're done today.
00:12:23
Speaker
And this one's this one's probably the most touchy of them.
The Role of Discipline in Modern Churches
00:12:27
Speaker
ah How would Jesus feel if he returned today and saw that church discipline had been taken out of his churches?
00:12:37
Speaker
We've turned our back on that whole concept. I mean, take the take the discipline out of your family and see what your household looks like, right? yeah um And so it's it's obviously going to cause chaos in your church if there's not some structure or standard of of holiness. and godness We celebrate tolerance more than we do holiness. Sure. yeah And because of that, the idea of a concept of leadership of a church holding anybody accountable to any kind of standard is so foreign to so many of our churches.
00:13:06
Speaker
We do a thing called Discover Us here at our church. It's a class to introduce people to our church, the vision of our church. It's a step we ask them to take in the membership process here. Every church in America should be doing that. Yes. And I can give you a dozen reasons why, so call me if you need that or email me or whatever. But you need to be doing some kind of introductory class that you don't just bring somebody up and they go, hey, I want to join. Sure, come on, join us. No, let's talk about what that looks like, what's expected. And oh, by the way, one of the things that's expected in this church, and I would argue is one of the reasons why but it's as healthy as it is, is that we don't just let people join without understanding the condition of their heart. sure
00:13:44
Speaker
And beyond that, we don't let that go. No. We have, over the last seven and a half years, unfortunately, had the the occasion where we've had to have hard conversations with people. Really hard. Some of them left led to some people leaving. Some of them led to to bad blood for a few months, and then they came around. Some of them led to really great gospel redemption stories. um i would feel I would say, but all of them lead to growth.
00:14:15
Speaker
Absolutely. yeah if done From both sides. 100%. If done properly, a lot of times you see the church strengthened, you see the church standing locked arm because of it. yeah and One of the things I was going before I get away from this, discover us in that class Many times when I'm leading the class, John and I take turns leading, many times when I'm leading the class, I will ask the question, how many of you have ever been in a church where you've seen church discipline practiced and practiced well? And most of the time, you will not get a single hand raised. yeah I'm sorry.
00:14:48
Speaker
Today, this world, I don't know of any church, healthy, unhealthy, big, small, country city church that's going to go through its existence without having the opportunity And it's probably weird to call it that word, but an opportunity to practice church discipline for the restoration of people. I think another sad part about that, Ridley, and what I've experienced just handful of times, ah they don't look at church discipline in the biblical light. They just see it as excommunication.
00:15:16
Speaker
And yeah church discipline catholics Church discipline is pursuing restoration and reconciliation. It may lead to that if someone is not receptive to correction.
00:15:30
Speaker
um And again, we hate for it to get to that point to where you know we're going to follow Matthew 18, where it talks about going through the process of reaching out to a brother if we see these things, reaching out to a sister if we see these things of caution. But We have to look at this too in the light of, and I say this for pastors, leaders who really never exercised this in the church, look at it as an opportunity for restoration and reconciliation. Because the point of our experience and and what we've seen at Groveville Church, I've even seen leadership and and elders walk out of the other side and say,
00:16:07
Speaker
Maybe we could have tweaked this here or there. Maybe the way that we um responded to these people, but we come out of this knowing that we are better shepherds, leaders to God's congregation. Yeah, and I want to i want to clarify and bring something up. This isn't um this isn't leadership against congregation right no um this is ridley coming to me and saying hey kyle you sidestepped right here yeah and i have a choice now definitely i could reject that and then really he's got to go get another brother and come to me and say hey kyle you're sidestepping i can reject that again and now it's elders coming to me and saying hey you need to you need to reconcile with this with the lord yeah
00:16:45
Speaker
or we're going to have to ask you to step
Purpose of Church Discipline: Restoration vs. Punishment
00:16:46
Speaker
away, right? This isn't this isn't congregation against leadership. no no It's brother to brother to brother within the within the congregation, oh within the leadership, and ah oftentimes it just comes down to a person of leadership responding to someone in the congregation. You know, and it's pretty interesting. If you never if you don't know what we're talking about, if you're not familiar with this concept, go to Matthew 18, verse 15, reading the following verses, where it talks about restoring a brother when you have a problem. This is exactly what Kyle's talking about ah here. um it's ah It's a practice, going back to your your comment a minute ago, it's a practice that's brought in from the church to the family.
00:17:24
Speaker
Everybody in the family has to have discipline. yeah you know Discipline to brush your teeth, discipline to do your part of the chores around the house, discipline to listen when mom and dad speak, discipline not to let unsettled things continue without dealing with them. And so the church, every church, becomes healthier when you don't allow things to just lie. right And conflict is never easy, it's never fun, but most often it's best dressed in the moment as quickly as you can for sure rather than just letting those things linger and fester and continue on and on. You know the irony of church discipline is everybody in the church wants to tell the pastor how to act.
00:18:01
Speaker
but they don't want to talk to each other about that. What? and What do you mean, the Pastor? I have to do something to, you know, recorrect? Yeah, you let a pastor step of the line, they'll be quick to do it. Yeah, but to reiterate, it's never really fun. yeah No. no think of Think of you with your relationship with your wife. When your wife points something out that's truth about you,
00:18:23
Speaker
It's not like, oh, thanks, babe. yeah Man, I didn't see that right away. yeah No, we get defensive. right We bow our chest. we It typically ends in a squabble between us and our wife. And then the next day we're like, oh, babe, I'm sorry, right? I was wrong. You were just pointing out something that I was lacking in.
00:18:40
Speaker
In the church setting, it escalates quickly, right? And so if if we've made a commitment to follow Christ and walk alongside Him, when we make a misstep and someone calls us on that, sometimes it it hurts.
00:18:52
Speaker
yeah But it's not coming from a place of, we want to hurt you. It's coming from a place of, hey, brother, you proclaim that you're following Christ in these ways and what He says, and right now you're outside of that. yep We want to see you come back into into fellowship, right? yeahp And so it's it's meant for total reconciliation every single time, regardless of the sin, regardless of how severe.
00:19:14
Speaker
It's always meant to bring that person under the umbrella of Christ. You know, they say you set a bone, the bone becomes stronger. Mm-hmm. I think that's kind of what happens with a church discipline. When you set somebody back in their place where they're on the road to righteousness and they're living a righteous life, they learn from those lessons. They become a stronger follower of Christ. And...
00:19:35
Speaker
are more likely themselves to practice church discipline somebody else and say, you know what, this helped me at some point in my life. It pulled me out of my place, put me in the right road again. i need to do the same for my brother
Fostering a Culture of Accountability
00:19:46
Speaker
and sister. Matthew 18, 15 closes just simply by saying, if he listens to you, you have won your brother. yeah What a powerful statement.
00:19:54
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like I'm talking a lot, but I'm to say something else. um Accept the challenge for both sides. One, if you're if you're walking outside of righteousness and someone comes to you and approaches you on it, yes ah accept it. yes Be graceful in it and say, you know what?
00:20:11
Speaker
Wow, you're right. I am not following what the Lord wants from me. How can I get back? And then two, be bold enough as a person that if you've got an issue with a brother, go speak directly to that brother. It doesn't take talking to 10 people to form a case to go talk to your brother. yeah Please just go directly to your brother and say, hey,
00:20:29
Speaker
am I perceiving this wrong? And they go, no, you know what? I'm dealing with a lot of stuff right now. Hey, let me put my arm around you and walk you back under the covering of the, right? And so it's like be graceful when you're in the approach. And then also if you're being approached on something, also accept it well. Yeah. You'll be surprised too how many times when somebody,
00:20:48
Speaker
is confronted by a loving brother who with a reconciliation mindset, yeah how many times that person's going, man, thank you because I needed somebody. I didn't see it myself. Or I even actually was longing for somebody to come talk to me. And they were just afraid on how to approach it. yeah So there's a reason why Matthew wrote that down for us and Jesus encouraged us in those words because there is healing in those things. Yeah.
00:21:11
Speaker
Yeah. Hey, great conversation. Thanks for being here with us today watching. We hope you will come back and join us next week. I'd love to tell you what we're going to be talking about. We have no clue. But if you would love to give us some thoughts and ideas, we'd love to hear from you. Otherwise, click, like, share, do all the good things so we can have a bigger following because we love having you join us for these conversations. And we look forward to seeing you back next week.
00:21:36
Speaker
Bye.