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Podcast 29 - Intimacy
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Join us as we discuss what God has to say about intimacy and possible guidelines to avoid harmful situations.
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Transcript
Introduction to Intimacy Boundaries
00:00:09
Speaker
Hey, welcome back to the Grove Hill podcast. Glad to have you joining us today as we are on a subject It may not be one that you would have at the forefront of your mind, but as we have just been discussing it ahead of time, it's been one that's kind of piqued our interest, so we decided to bring it to the table here today. um As a student pastor, working with with students over the years, and even as a pastor, many times you get asked the question, how far is too far? And inevitably that question is the question of physical intimacy between people who have been dating or seeing each other, or whatever the case may be.
Spiritual Intimacy Before Marriage
00:00:45
Speaker
But John, working with our young adults, just recently asked the question, how far is too far with spiritual intimacy for those who have yet to make the commitment of marriage? So we thought we would bring that into a conversation today. We've got the whole crew here. Laurie's joining us, our children's minister. Of course, Kyle over here, student pastor. and John, our associate pastor who works with our young adults. So I'm going to kind of let you kick off this conversation that kind of originated with that group. I think it's an important conversation that we have because it helps to steer hearts from the very first stages of commitment in a relationship, no matter how deep that commitment is. So tell us a little bit about the conversation.
00:01:25
Speaker
what have you say This conversation happened almost kind round table after the... normal gathering that we have in young adults. And I think it's good that we ask those questions, that we confront the questions of what does relationship look like as you honor and glorify
Unequally Yoked Relationships
00:01:41
Speaker
God? And sometimes I think we unintentionally ask the wrong question and we'll say, you know, how far is too far, you know, when it relates to spiritual intimacy.
00:01:53
Speaker
ah But I think it comes out of a breeding ground of How can we honor God? And what does that look like from a tangible services, worship type thing from Monday through Sunday? And then what does it look like as we try to find our mate? You know, those of ah the the ones who are in the dating ah area of the 18, 19, 20 till maybe, you know, who knows what age they're trying to look for those right qualifiers you how do I determine when is the right time? Yeah. So let's back up to square one with this because this is a area you dealt with as a student pastor and of course you deal with as a young adult pastor. um
00:02:33
Speaker
The question of what does it mean to be unequally yoked? What does that really mean for followers of Jesus Christ? How far do you take that? Because I think that's where that's where this question is ultimately leading is how do I find that person who is compatible with me in the area of faith and values?
00:02:51
Speaker
All right, so if you're looking at a like a direct answer from Scripture, unequally yoked is one one person being a follower of Christ, and their goal is to please the Lord and bring honor to Him, and the other person, not someone who's not saved. And so those those two people are going in two opposite directions. And so Scripture warns us about that, saying, man, that is that's a terrible idea because you guys are not of one of cord. It's okay to have differences,
00:03:15
Speaker
in marriage, but when one is saved and one's not, that's one of the biggest tugs and a biggest pull apart of a
Maturity and Spiritual Growth in Relationships
00:03:21
Speaker
marriage. Yeah. So i want to take that a little bit deeper. um The question has been asked before. I agree with him, what he said about being unequally yoked, but is it unequally yoked when one or of the partners in the relationship is much less mature than the other one? Supposedly, you know, guys are supposed to be leaders for for their female partners in the relationship. If one of them is...
00:03:43
Speaker
not able to do that because of maturity. Do you do you see us being unequally yoked? ah No, because in the in the context of where you know you go throughout scripture, whether it's in Romans or whether it's in other portions of the New Testament where the new covenant is being established and you're having this nature of what footing do you stand on? If you are in Christ, you stand on level footing, no matter where you're at in your faith. The the one-year-old Christian doesn't get any more priority than the 20-year-old Christian. So unequally yoked, there is a level of at the foot of the cross, we are at one place.
00:04:19
Speaker
Nothing wrong with looking at this from a design of, hey, he's a mature follower of Christ. He's not on the milk. And I see him practicing this out. I think here's another disconnect that we have.
00:04:32
Speaker
sometimes we see that differing level as um levels of Christianity sometimes. And there's just nowhere in scripture do I see, other than the spiritual maturity, but there is no extra benefit to somebody having a deeper walk with Christ. Christ doesn't bestow upon you some special gift If you followed Christ even longer or whatever. Well, he calls us out on that, right? He calls them out on that. He said, you, you're doing this and you think you're better. And even their size of their offerings, right?
00:05:03
Speaker
That's, that's what you're saying, right? There is a level of that, that I look at very vehemently. There is again, equal footing at the cross and there is an established, we all come with nothing other than
Pastoral Counseling on Readiness
00:05:16
Speaker
Christ. Hmm. Because if that if we if you call an immature believer and a mature believer unequally yoked, then my husband and I would not be successfully married for 20 years. Because when we first got married, he was a very young, immature believer.
00:05:32
Speaker
So i'm ah I'm going to voice a different opinion. I do lots of marital counseling and premarital counseling. If a woman came to me and she was obviously much more mature than the man she's about to marry, I would flash all the warning signs I could.
00:05:47
Speaker
Because you don't go into a marriage believing you're going to fix the other partner. Yeah. And so I'm not saying they don't work. i'll be Sure, they do. Well, I mean, we're the stories that work. But I worry about a woman who, and it happens all the time. Yeah.
00:06:02
Speaker
In fact, there's Couple in our church, it comes to mind right off the bat. People who go into a relationship going, I can fix that. we He can grow in that area and that kind of stuff. He can, and you pray that he does, are you willing to bet the rest of your married life on it?
00:06:16
Speaker
That's a risky proposition. So I'm not saying they're unequally yoked. So that's not what I'm saying because I agree with you. Every Christian is a Christian. There's not a semi-Christian or a halfway Christian or whatever.
00:06:28
Speaker
But maybe it's better to say they're not unequally yoked. I just worry about the proposition of a couple that enters on uneven ground because of the the places. Yeah, I think when it when the verbiage of Scripture is talking about unequally yoked, it's strictly talking about are are you followers Christ? Believer or non-believer. Right. Yeah. And so um the direction you're going is important to know when you're coming into premarital counseling. If someone's just like a casual Christian, right and man, we can't judge the heart, but they say they're a Christian, they kind of have fruit, maybe they don't. And then the other one's just on fire. I'm ready to sell the house. I'm ready to go to Guatemala. I'm ready, whatever. Yeah, you have a compatibility issue there. And you're right.
00:07:07
Speaker
a lot of times people look, we say all the time in student life, ah
Spiritual Practices in Dating
00:07:12
Speaker
there's no room for missionary dating, right? yeah Where you're like, man, I'm going to date this person so that I could show them who Christ is. right False. Don't even go there, right? yes um Scripture says if we hang out with the unwise and we hang out with those who seek folly, then we're going to head that direction. And so same same similar thing is is you're entering a marriage with someone who may not be on the same level as you spiritually.
00:07:34
Speaker
It's a very um cautious road, I would say, as you approach that. yeah I mean, it's not easy. I lived it for a long time. right But I'm very thankful for And we've got a lot of married couples in our church who have. who will tell you that story that one or both of them even were not where they needed to be spiritually when they started the journey. And that's the grace of God that shows up. Absolutely. the people pursuing them. So let's move this now towards a question. Okay. okay Spiritual intimacy. We like to use that word. When I'm doing premarital counseling, I tell couples the most incredibly intimate thing you can do is not sex.
00:08:08
Speaker
Anybody can go have sex. You can go have sex anywhere, anytime with anything these days. But... When you sit down with your spouse, male or female, and you're having a conversation with your creator about your needs and their needs, you hear the heart of a person in a way.
00:08:26
Speaker
I mean, I loved my wife for a lot of reasons, but man, when I first started hearing her pray, was like, sign me up. She's good hey there's somebody good. I've said it before. There's something attractive about when your spouse loves the Lord. like yes I think we can all talk about those things. yeah Is it wrong to call sexy prayers? You can
Boundaries in Spiritual and Physical Intimacy
00:08:46
Speaker
call that about it. I'm not going to speak to it. Yeah, you said that for yourself. All right, so how how far do you go with that, though? So it is, we I think we're all saying the same thing. We agree that those moments in the Word, praying with each other, for each other, those are moments of intimacy. Is there a line that you should or should not cross as a couple? Yes.
00:09:06
Speaker
I didn't finish the question. Go ahead. I know where you're going. Go ahead. I would say it's gradient, though. Yes. And so um if I have a 13, 14-year-old couple who is claiming to be boyfriend and girlfriend come up to me and say that they're going to do a Bible study, I will tell them 100% of the time, no.
00:09:24
Speaker
Right? Because a Bible study promotes spiritual intimacy. Mm-hmm. physical intimacy and emotional intimacy. Okay, can we stop there for a second?
00:09:34
Speaker
You're talking to two of them doing a study. There's nothing wrong with them being in a study together. 100%. They're doing it as a couple together. me Meeting in their in their living room or in their bedroom or whatever they're right wherever they're desiring to meet the bedroom and having a study. Well, that's a lot of times where it ends up, which leads to the physical intimacy. And so you're talking about a 14-year-old and a 13-year-old. And in student life the other night, I said,
00:09:57
Speaker
You tell me when you think it's appropriate for someone to be considering marriage. And I said 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19. It wasn't until i said 19 or 20 that I started to see hands go up. And I said, so 13 and 14 to be in a position where you're seeking marriage and' is not good. right Especially when you're trying to hold that hold yourself pure physically. And so for a young person to engage with in ah in a couple setting, prayer, Bible study, any type of spiritual intimacy is an absolute no. okay Now, like I said, it's gradient.
00:10:34
Speaker
I'm not going to enter into marriage without praying with this person that I'm considering marriage with. I'm not going to see i'm not going to enter in marriage without seeing where they are spiritually. And so 18, 19, 20, being in Bible studies together, seeing them interact with with people of faith in Jesus, And then as you get closer to marriage, definitely going in going into a little, making sure that you're keeping that physical intimacy separate, um definitely going in further before marriage. And so it's kind of a a discretion of age, spiritual maturity.
00:11:07
Speaker
and then um when when that actual marriage date is. Again, just
Premature Spiritual Intimacy
00:11:11
Speaker
a point of clarification, you're you're not saying that Lori and Keith, when they were dating, would have been wrong for her to call them on the phone and say, hey, I want to share a verse with you I thought was really good today. We're not talking about And that's what I encourage students to do. yeah You have your quiet time with the Lord. You have your quiet time with the Lord.
00:11:28
Speaker
When you guys are chatting, hey, what do you learn about Jesus? yeah Oh man, he's teaching me this through through Ephesians, right? But reading, studying, and praying together on an intimate level, to me, is a no-go.
00:11:41
Speaker
So you you brought it up, going to pick on it for a little bit. You and you and Keith dating, different levels of maturity. he Had he been a Christian very long? No, he became a Christian when was little. but it was At what point did you realize there was some depth difference between the two of y'all in your relationship?
00:11:59
Speaker
Very early on. um I mean, honestly, within probably a month because the first time we met was in church and he had not been back in church in years. Okay. So what was it that you said, i care enough about this guy that I want to kind of ignore that and not worry about that right now?
00:12:14
Speaker
Well, I don't think I ignored it. I think... seeing his desire to get back into church, not because of me, but because he knew he needed to make some things right with his own life. That's what really... Okay. Well, there's other things too. He's real cute too, but... That's another conversation with him the podcast. Yeah.
00:12:33
Speaker
And it's really cool because right now Keith Harbour is best friends with all three of us, we'll tell you this. yeah And just in the short time that I have known Keith Harbour, just incredible the difference that God has made in his life as he's grown and matured. Most people wouldn't recognize him 20 years ago. I would say that based on even stories he's told me. So it's very, very cool. So at what point did you begin to see, and was it pre-marriage or post-marriage, where you began to see him actively engaging God on his own?
00:13:02
Speaker
It was definitely post-marriage. When we got involved in a church, just when we um first got married, we wanted a church where we could call our own and where we could grow together. And we went to it we decided to go to church where there was no family because we wanted to be with just us. And ah the pastor really connected with him. and Perfect. Yep. That's for us. That was definitely after school we got married. All right. So this all started out with young adults.
00:13:25
Speaker
conversation they were having. Yes. What was the consensus in the room as you were listening? These were all young ladies, correct? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was girls. What was the age range? I would say anywhere from 18 to mid-20s, 25-ish. So let's get the picture. John's had a long day. He comes into his house and he gets brought into a conversation with a bunch of women This is my wife's fault. Oh, don't you blame her. She's growing a child. No, I know, I know. I love her, but this was one of those...
00:13:52
Speaker
conversations. And by the way, we love what we do. yes We love those even late night conversations. kids are put to bed. Yes, they were put to bed before we had this conversation. But man, it was so sweet as they, i look back to this, they were looking for answers to honor the Lord with in their dating walk, in their dating life. that's awesome And and really to me, those conversations are more than invited any day of the week and with us. ah But yeah, the consensus was how do we honor the Lord and sometimes where do we put things as laws that aren't laws?
00:14:28
Speaker
Uh, it makes me kind of look back to some of the Judaizers where they were implementing things yeah that God never had said were laws. So let's not call them laws, but let's be aware what might be permissible, but not beneficial. Uh, so God can allow the fact that man,
Seeking Holiness Over Satisfaction
00:14:47
Speaker
you can study with a brother or sister in Christ And you can do that even in the dating realm, but you have to be very cautious to Kyle's point. You can open the doors to physical, emotional things. If I'm dating someone for three weeks, I'm probably not going to share my sin struggle with them because it opens up the door for...
00:15:09
Speaker
probably not some great opportunities in the dating relationship. If I'm three weeks before marriage and I've never prayed with that person, I probably need to be praying with them. Yeah, absolutely. Understanding, because sometimes we think, although there are differences in the covenant, Genesis 2.24, there is a cleaving and there's a different relationship that happens and consists at that point.
00:15:32
Speaker
We can't expect for the light switch just to flip and all of a sudden, Oh, he's a leader. All of a sudden, you know, he covenanted with me and now we're good. So I do think it's in stages, but consensus was honor God, know what's permissible, what scripture, if it doesn't speak against it. Okay. Let's look at if there's gray area, what is beneficial? What's not beneficial. Yeah.
00:15:58
Speaker
yeah Lisa and I have led dozens of prayer conferences. I feel like every time, i'm not prayer conferences, marriage conferences, I feel like just about every time we have done that, I've had at least one conversation with the man where he is feeling the pressure of leading his family, but he doesn't know how to do it because he got married before he was ready. He wasn't ready to step into that role as the leader of his home spiritually. and you know They come to you sometimes confused, sometimes in tears, and sometimes even out of anger at themselves. And you kind of want to go, you know what, I can't rewind time and take you back to that place, but I can start walking you from here if you'll just be faithful to do it. You'll start to regain what what you lost in that. um
00:16:37
Speaker
Great conversations for these ladies. It's encouraging that a young generation is asking that kind of stuff because I think, and I know from your story, your story, my story, not him, he's goody-two-shoes. Sorry. Um, we had dating relationships where we go, eh, we shouldn't have done that. shouldn't have ever dated that person. I shouldn't have ever been involved in that particular situation. And and again, it goes back to if you're not the person of character you need to be when you're married before you meet this person, you will never become it just because you met that person. It's always about falling in love with Jesus. Always. yeah And so,
00:17:16
Speaker
but what let's Let's just wrap it up by this doing this. um One word of advice from your own personal dating relationship that you would share with the young person if they were sitting here today.
00:17:27
Speaker
Who wants to go first? I'll go first.
00:17:33
Speaker
Psalm 37 verse 7, be still before the Lord and wait patiently for him.
Personal Advice and Scriptural Guidance
00:17:37
Speaker
That's the that's the first portion of that verse 7. But what it's saying and what I think every believer's desire as they walk into a dating relationship, the dating relationship isn't about you. It's about you becoming holy as he is holy. And that's a very hard concept to get is we want to see, man, how can this...
00:18:01
Speaker
relationship affirm me, benefit me, make me feel good, give me all the things, but it's about holiness. And sometimes that's, that's a hard concept to really wreck your brain. And that's where you have to depend on the Holy spirit to change the the fleshly desires of your heart and to begin to say, man, let me just sit before the Lord.
00:18:23
Speaker
because my wife and I had to come to the point of realizing she could have married somebody else, you know, I could have married somebody else. Like the whole soulmate deal, throw that out the window.
00:18:35
Speaker
i love her and I'm so thankful that God put her in my life. But it is about God's holiness before anything else. I would say refrain from frivolous dating. And what I mean by that is a lot of times people will date someone to discover who they are um be around that person enough to discover who they are before you decide to date right you should be going into the dating relationship saying hey this person is potential for marriage and we're gonna we're gonna see see this through and so just dating someone to find out who they are that's going to cause you a lot of heartache emotion all that kind of stuff and then once you are dating don't be any rooms by yourself there you go and then this dating advice or marriage advice sure
00:19:19
Speaker
Okay. yeah People told us not to go to bed angry, but for me, i know you're going to be shocked that I'm emotional. I know, right? No, but for us for me personally, I had to go to bed sometimes angry because I had to settle my thoughts before the Lord before I could calmly talk to Him. um even if Even while we were dating, if something upset me, I sometimes had to wait so I could calm down and then have a civil conversation. It's more productive that way because if you speak out of emotion, you're going to get... That's being slow to speak and slow to... Yes, very much
God's Role and Divine Alignment
00:19:52
Speaker
so. Very good yeah good. So I'm going to go back to the chapter you just read because it made me think about the verse. and we actually were talking about it coming online. There's a lot of great promises in Psalms in general and in Psalm 37 specifically. But Psalm 37, 4, when I used to share with the students i in my church all the time, take delight in the Lord and He will give you your heart's desires. There's a lot of ways people read that and I even think misinterpret it and That does not mean follow God and He'll give you everything you want.
00:20:18
Speaker
I think personally that what David's saying is that God will give to you the desires your heart should have. He will point you to the things that are good for you. So you delight in the Lord. If you if you make Him your first and greatest love, every other love that you need in your life will be brought to you in the right way. So...
00:20:38
Speaker
a tribute to who I just called goody two shoes. He did it right. He loved the Lord all the way growing up and so did his wife to be. and because of that, the two of them had this beautiful relationship growing up all the way through high school. Me, i pursued a whole lot of loves, not the least of which was my own desires. And it took a long time for me to find that right person. Now when I did,
00:20:58
Speaker
by grace of God, I found a really incredible person. Um, the man, you just, you got to get that order, right. If you get it out of, in fact, if you don't get it in the right order and you can't call Jesus Lord, you have to call him Adam. Yeah.
00:21:11
Speaker
You have to call him an an addendum. do you One of the kind of like a paradox before you get married is you're not one with that person. Um, And so it's impossible to have your eyes on the Lord and the eyes on the person at the same time. And so you often shift your focus when you're dating to the person and you're not focusing on the Lord. It's only possible in marriage that you can be with someone because you're one and be looking up upon the Lord constantly. And so it's it's a very tricky time, dating is, or even engagement, in that you're kind of shifting your focus from one to the other. I'll also say as someone who didn't always get it right...
00:21:49
Speaker
Seek godly wisdom and give yourself grace and remember that his mercies are new and that he will wipe you clean.
Closing Prayer and Encouragement
00:21:55
Speaker
Yes. good Very good. So we love our listeners here. We've got some great listeners who made some great comments and probably the best was just in the last couple of weeks, one of our good friends said, you know what? Y'all talk about some really good, really heavy stuff on there. Don't you think you ought to be spending more time praying? Yep. So you're exactly right. So we're going to do that today. We're going to pray not only just for this ah this subject and for all you who are listening, but just pray for God's direction over this podcast as it continues to go forward, that we are approaching the right subjects and, of course, approaching Him in the right way. And because I have very bad throat right now, going ask my friend Kyle to pray for us. Absolutely. And, man, we'd love to have you back next week, be a part of this, listen and again to suggestions. So this prayer goes out to our friend Marcus. Yep.
00:22:41
Speaker
Father, we thank you for who you are and giving us such good instruction from your word. ah Lord, it's very practical. And so I ask that we can um study it and know it. So when these topics come up of really heavy conversations, We know how to navigate it in our personal life because you've given us the ability to do so. Father, I pray for everybody listening on the other side of this, whether they're having the best day ever or a terrible day.
00:23:05
Speaker
um I pray that your word just brings joy and peace and love to their heart. Father, we thank you for um those who have walked some crazy roads and have a testimony throughout their dating life. I pray that those people can speak to maybe a younger generation or those who are upcoming and and warn them of the the tragedies that could come about.
00:23:27
Speaker
Father, we thank you for, like what Lori said, your mercies are new every single day. And so if there's paths that we'd walked that are not pleasing to you, thank you so much for your forgiveness and wiping us clean.
00:23:41
Speaker
um It says you removed our sins as far as the east is from the west, Lord, and we thank you for that. Lord, bless everybody's day. We pray this in your name. Amen. Amen. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you back next week.
00:23:51
Speaker
Bye.