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Group Therapy: Ashworth sacked, the Newcastle funk & Sunderland's slump
10 Plays2 days ago
Is Eddie Howe the roadblock to Newcastle’s next level? Are Sunderland’s promotion dreams dead already? And what’s the truth behind Man United and INEOS dropping Dan Ashworth after just 5 months? Tune in for all the answers!
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Transcript
Final Episode Announcement
00:00:18
Killian Ginnity
Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the final regular episode of 2024 of the Not Upon The Podcast. We are going to be taking a break. We will be back before New Year's and after Christmas with a very, very, very special episode. Um, but this is your final one for 2024 of the regularly programmed episodes. Um, I'm delighted to be joined as ever by Connor Glennon
Newcastle's Challenging Year & Hopes
00:00:46
Killian Ginnity
-Nittenberg. Gentlemen, how are we doing?
00:00:48
Conor Glennon
I'm very well, thank you. Can you believe it's been another year? god That's flown along. I swear to God this year's flown quicker than ever, but it's been full of exciting interviews and episodes. and um I'm looking forward to more next year, but that's just me trying to talk around Newcastle's dismal performance. So I'll try and keep going in circles for another one. Nate, how are you?
00:01:07
Nate
I'm good, I'm good, yeah. It's been it's been a while's ride this year and I think we deserve a little break and then head back for the next year but yeah, no, it's been a while ride and um I'm like you mumbling just so I don't have to speak about my dear.
Listener Appreciation & Spotify Stats
00:01:25
Killian Ginnity
It has been a fantastic year and we do want to give our thanks to ah everybody who has tuned in. um If you're following us on social you might have seen that our Spotify wraps came along because as everybody else's did and and We've had amazing gains this year and that's all down to you, the listeners. In the hundreds of percentages of of growth, which which we in the business call great.
00:01:51
Killian Ginnity
i am We will be obviously touching on the big news and the kind of the usual proverbial dead horse that at which we kick that is Man United. But we're not going to force Nate to do that just yet.
Managerial Changes at Newcastle
00:02:06
Killian Ginnity
Nate, you can look at our teams for once. and We're going to touch on Newcastle and Sunderland and Conner. Last time we touched on ah Newcastle, Amanda Stavely had just left. How was kind of coming back from, I don't want to say from being on the brink, but he was definitely a a step or two away from the edge, shall we say. um How is all on Tyneside?
00:02:29
Conor Glennon
ah you know I said it early on in the season, and I can't remember if I said it in that chat explicitly, but it felt from early on that something wasn't right. um and you know i've i've I've said it a few times in the WhatsApp chat calling it a funk, but as Nathan has has gladly told me, it's it's far more than that.
00:02:48
Conor Glennon
I think there's a straight...
00:02:49
Killian Ginnity
Funk is fun, that's the difference.
00:02:50
Conor Glennon
yeah I think there's there's deeper issues going on there. you know I think when when Amanda left, it went obviously murdered, her partner left at the same time. I think that left a little bit of a vacuum of direction. um I think that coupled with Dan Ashworth's leaving, or not even before he left in that kind of gardening leave period, and it affected our transfers. I think I think the biggest thing though isn't even that. I think the Champions League season really affected us and because I think it happened too soon. And I don't think any of us expected to be there that quick. We got there and then the expectation bar is... much more higher the following season. And even the season where you're in the Champions League, you know, it was at the detriment of the league. um So all in all, you know, I think we thought we'd have Champions League football for a sustained period. We could recruit based off that. We'd have Dan Ashworth at the helm to pick those transfers. And we'd have Murad there from a C-suite perspective to kind of guide us.
Newcastle's Champions League Struggles
00:03:50
Conor Glennon
But all of that's gone. Champions League is gone. Murad's gone. Ashworth's gone. And ah I think how
00:03:57
Conor Glennon
is flamering a little bit from a personnel perspective because of the players that we brought in and especially in that last summer window were very average and we had to let ah some players go as well from a PSO perspective and then he's come out in the last week or two basically saying he's not keen on doing that again this summer or this January he doesn't feel it's it's fair to the squad so i I don't want to say we're in freefall because Newcastle's been a hell of a lot worse than this you know over previous years but it ain't looking good
00:04:27
Killian Ginnity
I think there's always that expectation when you spend loads of money and you have that kind of upward projection trajectory and plus it what should be technically limited limitless funds behind you. Like rightly or wrongly, people can get get ahead of themselves. And in fairness, you do have a nice structure in place that should allow you to get a little bit ahead of yourselves. Like when you have the likes of Paul Mitchell and what he did at Leipzig.
00:04:55
Killian Ginnity
He had Dan Ashworth and what he did ah over over his career um and like there's a reason he was so sorted by Man United. He has all the cards in play to make it work.
00:05:07
Conor Glennon
I would have killed you to be where we are now, you know five, six years ago.
00:05:08
Killian Ginnity
and Yeah.
00:05:11
Conor Glennon
like yeah I do have to remember that, but it it is hard that once you get that that side of it that you see success in some regard, or at least hire your expert you higher success than you imagine the team to be, it's it's hard it's hard to take.
00:05:23
Conor Glennon
But I think even from a, ah you know you say we have the money to spend, we haven't even spent it that well. like you know I like Lewis Miley, he's a very good player, but we spent 24 odd million on him. Ms. Rowey was what, 12 million now?
00:05:36
Nate
12-minute area.
00:05:37
Conor Glennon
Like, give me two of them, please.
Squad Rotation Dilemmas
00:05:40
Conor Glennon
You know, it we brought in like Lloyd Kelly, John Ruddy.
00:05:40
Killian Ginnity
Yeah.
00:05:44
Conor Glennon
It's like, what are we doing in here?
00:05:47
Killian Ginnity
But nate like you've you're ah ah a supporter of a team that is used to having European football and you you've had managers that and came in and not been that used to it. Do you think that that is actually one of the things that is going against how is that he's not used to having to have such a squad rotation and building a squad that can handle their midweek games. and It's now kind of starting to come come come bad for him and maybe it's time to get a manager that is a little bit more experienced at the big boy end of the game.
00:06:22
Nate
and yes I think there's a bit of that but my personal opinion and this might be a harsh opinion and I don't know if people would agree with me is I don't know if if the wider Newcastle base believes in how as the man to take them forward and like yes he's done really well up to this point but for me when I look at Newcastle and I could be totally wrong but this is like as an outsider looking in is it looks like a club that lacks direction like they don't know whether they're coming they don't know whether they're going like I don't even know if they know what their target for this season is let alone in five years so I think that's a big thing is it feels a bit like a last club where I think a lot of the fans have got to a point where
00:07:11
Nate
it built up to an expectation that the club just haven't been able to deliver. And maybe
Uncertainty in Newcastle's Leadership
00:07:18
Nate
you can touch on it more, Connor. Is there communication from the club about direction? Is there communication from the club about, like, we're fully behind Eddie, how this is our man to take us forward? Like, it seems all confusing.
00:07:32
Conor Glennon
Yeah, I have to say there's one of the most diplomatic ways you've talked about Newcastle, I think of all time. You you summed it up absolutely perfect. um Yeah, we absolutely are slightly rudderless at the moment. And the the communications from the club of limited that it has been has very been very much kind of holding statements. And we believe in the manager, like, but not statements that you go there behind them. It's just enough to keep the press off their backs. And, you know, I've been thinking of this recently and I think if Eddie Hale left tomorrow morning the fans, there'd be certain fans that are annoyed about it, certain fans that are happy, but I don't think anyone would begrudge him anything that he did for us up until this point. I think he took a struggling team, made us into a much more high caliber team and and at least gave us stability for a while. I do however think
00:08:26
Conor Glennon
The road is running out for him. um I don't think it's all his fault. I think he's in a very, as I said, you know hard circumstance where a lot of things have changed, his resources have been pulled and the resources he bought hasn't, whether they were his choice or not, haven't really panned out. I do think though he And the thing that's kind of been on my mind is, is he the Gareth South case and we need Tougal? You know, is it a case of he got us to this point where it's its stabilized us as a club, it's it's got the fans believing in the possibilities of what we can do, but we just need someone who's been there and done it to kick us out of that next bit.
00:09:06
Nate
would Would a manager like that, though, look at Newcastle as that opportunity right now? Because like as you said, resources have been pulled. At times, you just had the resources. It's like, why is it being pulled? You know what I mean? like Why can Eddie Hale one minute, like, oh, we're going into this window. We're we're expected to buy this, this, this. And the next minute, it comes across as though your team sometimes is like, yes, we've got some unreal players in our team.
00:09:36
Nate
but we just don't have the makeup of the squad to to really solidify it, you know what
Financial Constraints at Newcastle
00:09:40
Nate
I mean?
00:09:40
Conor Glennon
I think having the PIF as our backers has been a godsend in one way and hamstrung us in other capacities. I think the PIF are more focused on the likes of Live Golf, Formula One and their wider business portfolio. I think we were a bit of a flash in the pan for them at the beginning. They came into low cost.
00:10:01
Conor Glennon
comparably to some of their other investments were over succeeding and they got excited and then I think they kind of saw a ceiling as to their investment in the short term so I think we almost need to prove to the PIF that we're worth larger investment and the only way you can do that is through winning but then it's that kind of hard triangle of of well you can only get the money if you win you can't get the money if you don't if we're not winning you know and it's it's ah ah I don't know, it's it's a tricky trifecta of we can't get there if they don't give us that money, but they won't give us the money if we don't win. And and I do also take your point in terms of the manager. i There would be few managers of the caliber that we require who'd be willing to do
Fan Expectations vs. PIF Ambitions
00:10:44
Conor Glennon
it. But Jose has outlined that he is interested. he's approach He's kind of approached Newcastle through intermediaries, if that is to be believed. But again, as we've talked about, that's a short term fix to a long term problem.
00:10:58
Killian Ginnity
you mentioned like the funds and the necessary in needing them i did see reports but i don't know if you've kind of heard more on the ground um that pif were pulling back on their general non saudi specific funding um aside from i think it was live golf was the one that was named to say that was like there that's not going to change have you heard of kind of i know that like profit and sustainability rules wise, you can't spend that much anyway, but have you heard that there's going to be like a pullback on the war chest available to to the team?
00:11:34
Conor Glennon
Nothing has been kind of concrete. I think there's been a lot of rumors going around fan forums and just what's in the likes of you know your Bloombergs and and the more trade press than anything. I think what is worrying as a club that are sponsored by a state fund is the legislation looks like it's changing.
00:11:55
Conor Glennon
to at least going forwards not allow state funding for clubs how that will work for like the clubs like ourselves and Citi who are almost grandfathered into it I don't know but I think my read of the situation is they're getting slightly nervous about their investment and based off the fact that they may have to sell this pretty soon if things go a certain way from a legality point of view especially if if city get done for charges they'll get really nervous so i think they're trying to until they see how the city charges pan out mitigate risk as much as they can from an expenditure point of view and and and see what happens with city and go from there.
00:12:35
Nate
have This is a question for you, Connor. Have we seen Newcastle fans' expectations outweigh what the PIF's ambitions are in terms of when the PIF came in, they were sort of promising the world? And now, I don't know if they specifically were promising the world, but that's how was that tail came across. And it's like, have they not delivered up to what the fans' expectations currently are?
00:13:03
Conor Glennon
ah yeah I think they have and they haven't. God bless Newcastle fans, they're an incredibly passionate bunch. um and You know, i'm I'm talking with the people in Newcastle here, like, the like i like look, I'm a Newcastle fan, but I'm talking to people that but live there, breathe it, and have done for generations. And I think
Challenges in Newcastle Recruitment
00:13:25
Conor Glennon
they they were so demoralised by the Ashley era and, you know, the Freddie Shepard era before that, that they I think they saw the Saudis and the PIF and saw the dollar signs. And you could see the dollar signs in the Newcastle fans' eyes. So I think there was a bit of
00:13:43
Conor Glennon
to get the fans on their side, they I think they inflated what their plan was in the short term. um And then with that, I think all the chattering like, oh, Newcastle get in bat bay and players like that. I think that was all just coming from fans. I think i i don't think it's fair for... for fans to say that that was coming from the from the PIF. But again, I think had we sustained Champions League status, had we now have we had we not kind of gone into the period that we're in now, I think their investment would have been stronger. and But I also think that the PIF underestimated PSO or maybe didn't even take it into account.
00:14:20
Nate
My thing that I'm interested in now is we've established that there're but they seem directionless like as a club currently. and like if a big offer comes in for an Isaac or a Bruno, does that then become appealing to the PIF? As you said, with momentum pressure, they'll even be there. does it Does it become like, oh, we'll accept that offer? And then are we at a point now where Newcastle could have players that are literally irreplaceable, like to to the same standards, you know what I mean?
00:14:53
Conor Glennon
we We, I think how we handle the likes of Sven Batman, Bruno, Isaac, will define what PIF think of us. Because if we're, unless we get an ungodly amount of money, and I'm talking 100 mil, which we will not get for Isaac, it makes us look again like a stepping stone team of yesteryear, where we get a player for a couple of years, they're great, they move on.
00:15:22
Conor Glennon
And if that's where we're going, that doesn't send a great signal to the fans. I think they're almost better to potentially down the road if they do pull the ripcord and move away from the club, lose a bit on their investment, but keep the fans on side for the interim. It's what I think. I do think we're getting to a point though that like, I don't think we can attract a player as good as Alexander Esak if we were to let him go. So we'd have to find someone who is cheaper, not as good and hope that they work out to be an ESAC, but I don't see us being able to get someone that big.
Replacing Key Newcastle Players
00:15:58
Killian Ginnity
But Esac wasn't Esac when you signed him. He was um coming off of a good good season or two at Real Sostiad, where he was kind of rebuilding his career after an underwhelming time at Dortmund.
00:16:00
Conor Glennon
that yeah And that is the thing.
00:16:09
Killian Ginnity
So like rightly or wrongly, I think Newcastle fans are getting ahead of themselves there. And like your options kind of seem to be either be one of the upwardly mobile teams, the likes of Brighton, and kind of be willing to, yeah, well, everybody has their price.
00:16:23
Killian Ginnity
Every player has their price. And as long as we're good enough of buying them, well, then we'll always get another one. Or you can end up like an Atletico Madrid, and both so successful, um where Atletico will hold on to players beyond their sell-by dates and keep them there. But that ah becomes an insurmountable task in and and of itself, because there's always going to be somebody with more money. And when users are technically at a ah stage of having to sell to buy,
00:16:55
Killian Ginnity
Like, i I don't know what he's gonna forge to have anybody that's unsellable.
00:17:00
Conor Glennon
and And you're completely right. might You see, my worry is, though, and and where I'd feel much safer if I was a Brighton fan, which is not something I've ever said, um is that when, say they sell, I don't know, Metoma, they've got an option A, B, C, D, and E ready to go. If A says no, we move to B. If B says no, we go to C. And all of them would be spectacular players. I don't believe in our recruitment enough that that would be the case.
00:17:26
Conor Glennon
I think we'd have an A option, wouldn't get them, and our B option would be sub par.
00:17:30
Nate
Close. you
00:17:31
Killian Ginnity
It's just too early in your setup.
00:17:33
Conor Glennon
I think so, yeah. And because I also, I think it all comes back to we don't know how invested PIFR, while Brighton, it's very apparent what the mission is there. And everyone's bought in, and it's it's a tried and tested model at this point.
00:17:48
Nate
but also we haven't seen yet the Newcastle tax is when you say do sell an Isaac or a Bruno and you go to replace these players, is it going to be like, mate, we're we're in negotiating here with the Crown Prince, like take yeah get the checkbook out, you know what I mean?
00:18:01
Conor Glennon
Yeah, so we know how much are in the car for us, yeah. Yeah, yeah i do I do think there'll be a bit of that.
00:18:05
Nate
like
00:18:06
Conor Glennon
that like And Jesus, God forbid, if we go for an English player as well, we'll have English tax and Newcastle tax, and we'll be spending 200 million to get, I don't know, Lloyd Kelly again.
00:18:16
Killian Ginnity
but like it's But sometimes ah necessity is the mother of all invention. and like Until you show and know that you just can't spend, maybe you just won't get clever. like We've seen time and time again that like when you have to be clever, you will be clever. And if you don't have to be, well, you then and you can be West Ham.
Managing Fan Expectations
00:18:37
Killian Ginnity
and just sign 40 strikers that score a total of 9 goals in 10 years. um like I don't know, I don't think it's the worst thing for you, as long as, and this is a sunland um something on fans saying it, so I don't believe it'll happen, as long as Newcastle fans can keep them their mental in check.
00:18:58
Killian Ginnity
like the Roy Keane said, ah what ah what a fan base to have an ego that they have for the lack of success that they have. And that might actually come back to haunt use by not like the fans expectations not allowing you to grow in a sustainable manner.
00:19:15
Conor Glennon
I don't think you're wrong. And I think if you, you know, it's it's frustrating to hear those comments from the likes of Roy Keane, but that doesn't mean he's wrong. You know, I do think there needs to be a certain sit down look who we are. It's a hell of a lot further than we expected it to be five years ago. um But, you know, I think where we have pivoted as a team and ah moved on in terms of of creating a team that is more sustainable is For previous years it would have been a case where we were dependent on one player.
00:19:49
Conor Glennon
And as much as you can say we're dependent on one player in EZAC. We've also got a core there of EZAC Bruno and we've got um ah Botman there as well. But, you know, there's only so much of my heartstrings can be pulled for for the problems at Newcastle.
00:20:06
Conor Glennon
The old Sunderland fellas aren't aren't doing too much better than us.
00:20:07
Nate
Thank you.
00:20:10
Conor Glennon
And and i the worst bit is I can't even laugh at you because of the situation we're in.
00:20:14
Nate
and can I tee this up real quick?
00:20:16
Killian Ginnity
Go on.
00:20:17
Nate
Okay, so, you know, I was in our WhatsApp group this morning and I was like, did Isaac go on a year? We're going to speak about the troubles, saying you know? And then I was like, oh, here we go again.
00:20:28
Nate
I'm going to have to get to the fence out. And then I just had to hit back at them. I had to go Newcastle two points in 12, you know, not looking too pretty over in Tyneside. And then Sunderland one win in seven.
00:20:43
Nate
You've been keeping that one quiet, Gideon.
00:20:45
Conor Glennon
But, but they're coming straight back up is, is, is all we've been hearing.
00:20:47
Nate
Oh, and by the way, they are currently drawing.
00:20:52
Killian Ginnity
No, they're currently losing.
00:20:52
Nate
Oh, they're currently losing 1-0 to 12th place Bristol City.
00:20:57
Killian Ginnity
Yep, yep.
00:20:58
Conor Glennon
Yup.
00:20:58
Nate
Yeah.
00:20:59
Conor Glennon
The Brizzy fam.
00:21:01
Killian Ginnity
To put this in in all in context though, like if you had said we'd be challenging for playoff tripe this season, I would have said absolutely unreal, delighted with that.
00:21:12
Killian Ginnity
Realistically, we've spent the seasons over challenging for the first place. Ridiculously good. And whilst I do think that we actually could very realistically get promoted this year, obviously my messages every week have been relatively tongue in cheek.
00:21:29
Killian Ginnity
Like, I'm not worried. Like, the way we ended last year, and it looked like that we might need a major rebuild. And we didn't. Like, we've invested relatively well, as as we always have.
00:21:43
Killian Ginnity
We've brought true youngsters.
00:21:43
Nate
All right.
00:21:45
Killian Ginnity
We've got another Jack Park region arriving last week. Tommy Watson, two goals. he It was his first time ever scoring for Sunderland and he added a second to help us beat Stoke.
00:21:58
Killian Ginnity
um ah like we know this hes He's our third Jack Clark that we've had. We've had Jack Clark, Roman Mundal and now Watson.
Sunderland's Recruitment Strategy
00:22:09
Killian Ginnity
Sunderland right now, um I don't want us to be in a Premier League next year, necessarily.
00:22:15
Nate
weren't saying that is
00:22:16
Conor Glennon
Yeah, that that's that's that's some change of tune there now, my friend.
00:22:18
Killian Ginnity
No, no, no, no. no No, no, like I would love to be in the Premier League next year, but it's also one of them things like Connor was saying with the Champions League with Newcastle. It's too early. Like we have so many raw youngsters that would it be good for them to go and experience that and raise the level? Yeah. Would it be better for them to go and like rinse the championship again next year if we can?
00:22:40
Conor Glennon
So I don't know if you'd be able to keep them though, and I almost think from a business perspective, you're better to go up this year if you can, because let's face it, as much as we're ragging, you're like five points off top.
00:22:50
Conor Glennon
um But I think it'd be better to get those players into the Premier League, into that shop window. though And if you do get relegated, which I don't know how you'd fare next year, I really don't.
00:22:50
Killian Ginnity
Yeah.
00:23:01
Conor Glennon
But if you dig if you did get relegated, those players would be more valuable having had Premier League experience and with a parachute payment. I don't think you'd be affected from a financial point of view. It would just be a morale point of view. Because I think if you keep those players into the summer, some of them will leave anyway. But if you get that prem ah promotion, you'll and you'll at least have them for another season and potentially longer then.
00:23:24
Killian Ginnity
Yeah, like i'm I've seen it on the second tier podcast, the championship podcast. Like they literally had a ah social flip up this week is where do something and keep finding these wonder kids.
00:23:36
Killian Ginnity
And I think we're kind of at the stage. um <unk>s It's kind of a dangerous situation to be in where we're kind of doing a Brighton in the championship level.
00:23:45
Conor Glennon
are you Are you doing an algorithm on it or do you just have good scopes?
00:23:49
Killian Ginnity
ah Good scouts that use data, yeah.
00:23:53
Conor Glennon
Algos. Yeah, okay.
00:23:54
Killian Ginnity
like um yeah Because like basically our whole structure now had previously been previously been Birmingham's youth structure.
00:23:55
Conor Glennon
Some mix of both.
00:24:03
Killian Ginnity
That's ultimately what what's happened. So Christian Speakman was the head of youth development. at Birmingham, he brought through your job but ah Job and Jude Bellingham.
00:24:13
Conor Glennon
Not a bad CV.
00:24:14
Killian Ginnity
Jude Bellingham directly and credits Speakman as being the reason for his progression. So that's why Job came to Sunderland because Job had offers from bigger teams at that time.
00:24:25
Conor Glennon
I didn't know that.
00:24:26
Killian Ginnity
Yeah. and So we paid reasonable money for a 16 year old after one year. like um considering we don't really spend money. But he also brought in Mike Dodds, who was our interim manager at the end of last year.
00:24:40
Conor Glennon
yeah
00:24:41
Killian Ginnity
Good coach, not good manager. um And Stuart English, who is a recent connection of mine on LinkedIn, and but if you're listening.
00:24:48
Conor Glennon
Stupid if you're listening.
00:24:51
Killian Ginnity
But speaking of that is a real like he he's it's ah it's a really awkward time for someone because, yes, we're having that we're in this bit
Focus on Young Talent at Sunderland
00:25:01
Killian Ginnity
of a wobble.
00:25:01
Killian Ginnity
um and after how the last year ended there's a lot of fans that are turning on Speak One and have been for a while and when we started so well they all went quiet but now they're starting to not be quiet now i um but like the system that he's put in place and the structure that he's put in place like our manager it's his first time managing outside of France and it's his second management job and it's in his last job he became the manager after being the head of youth development for L'Oréal. He ended up becoming the manager after a caretaker spell. Like everything we do is has been built to nurture young players and why I say we're kind of like Brighton is yet we actually do have a plan A and a plan B and a plan C and they're all under the age of 23.
00:25:49
Killian Ginnity
And I'm kind of slightly worried that like, are we doing the doing this to kind of, are we building for five years or are we building for two years? Because like we could we could get potentially promoted and maybe the plan changes and we suddenly start getting.
00:26:02
Conor Glennon
Recruitment wise though, like you're so far ahead of where Newcastle are. You are it's consistently developing young talent who are very marketable. and you know i think
00:26:13
Killian Ginnity
Like we sold Jack Clark and had an instant replacement for him.
00:26:16
Conor Glennon
But this, and we're not able to do that, but where I think, Sonon and I don't know how you do this unless you get promoted to the prem and manage to say, but you need to find a way to kick on and keep those players so that you don't turn into into a a youth factory like West Ham who just end up shipping up ah shipping out all your best time.
00:26:16
Killian Ginnity
like
00:26:33
Conor Glennon
like if you like We've talked touched on this before, but over the years, you could make one of the best prem 11s go on the road with players that have come out of that that West Ham system. And Sonon and I'm not saying you're there, but like you're a version of that.
00:26:46
Killian Ginnity
Yeah, like we've done very well to hold on to players so far. like Our only big, big loss has been Jack Clark.
00:26:52
Conor Glennon
It was gonna go anyway, you know.
00:26:52
Killian Ginnity
and it was It was time, and his agent is not liked on soland at Sunderland, and his agent doesn't really particularly seem to like Sunderland because of his own playing days there, Ian Hart.
00:27:04
Conor Glennon
Okay.
00:27:05
Killian Ginnity
and and ah like
00:27:12
Killian Ginnity
We held held on to Job. We got him to sign a new contract, despite the fact that I think it was actually West Ham was one of the teams that were in for a moment. I think we we were being quoted 25 million or something. um I think it's worth more than that now.
00:27:24
Killian Ginnity
ah We do have the likes of Dennis Serkin. We did let some of our French guys go back to France and do some kind of on um mostly unknown deals, Timothy Pembele from our PSG, Pierre Écois, who I think has a seven mil bio clause for say, NTN.
00:27:40
Killian Ginnity
And it's basically said that he wants to stay. um But again, we've instant
Potential Premier League Promotion?
00:27:45
Killian Ginnity
replacements for them. We have Chris Rigg, Nate, who's constantly being linked with Man United and it'll be a big, big fee if he does go.
00:27:50
Conor Glennon
but But do you think, how do you think you stop being the team that develops these players and it's, he's linked to West Ham or he's linked to United or he's linked here. You know, what, what is it that takes someone into the position where those players go, no, I don't want that move.
00:28:04
Killian Ginnity
Well, that's where we are right now.
00:28:04
Nate
We'll need to get to the primary.
00:28:06
Killian Ginnity
but look but
00:28:06
Conor Glennon
But, it but even, even being, you know, bottom half fodder in the Premier League, I don't know if that makes them stay, you know.
00:28:13
Nate
yeah I do, like because the Premier League experience is so valuable to young players at that age that even some of them still being in the championship and bringing through good players is all well and good, but then the Premier League start looking to some of them to bring them up. And then it becomes harder to keep all of them, as as we've said. It's like, if even a Brighton comes looking for a Chris Rigg, like you can't stop that, you know what I mean?
00:28:39
Conor Glennon
Yeah.
00:28:39
Nate
like
00:28:42
Killian Ginnity
my My worry with the likes of all that is um the fact that, like, if we do go up, I don't want these, like, you see with Southampton now, Southampton bought youngsters to kind of be good and then they got promoted and they're kind of getting cannibalised now. And i think we're clever I think our recruitment is clever and enough that it wouldn't be horrific. I don't think it would be an absolute mauling.
00:29:07
Killian Ginnity
um But I don't think we'd be that bad. I don't think we'd be too far off it. I think we'd be maybe at the 17th, 16th position.
00:29:19
Killian Ginnity
um
00:29:21
Conor Glennon
Like that's not even a dig same bottom half fodder like I mean Newcastle were for a long time, you know?
00:29:23
Killian Ginnity
No, no, no. like yeah yeah no and and it's it's I think that would be a really kind of healthy place for us. But I think like Chris Rigg is 17 years old. he'd be 18 next year.
00:29:35
Killian Ginnity
and it's ah It's insane.
00:29:36
Conor Glennon
That's frightening, Jesus.
00:29:40
Killian Ginnity
What would be better for him? like Getting really, really confident at the top end of the championship next year and doing really well and selling with this potential.
00:29:53
Killian Ginnity
And one of the things that we're very, very good at is selling on clauses.
00:29:56
Conor Glennon
yeah
00:29:57
Killian Ginnity
task
00:29:57
Conor Glennon
bake in a 20% salon and you probably end up getting more from the transfer on the salon long term.
00:29:58
Killian Ginnity
and Yeah.
00:30:03
Killian Ginnity
Yes, sell him for 25 with a 35% sell on and then a season later after a season of Brighton, he goes to a Chelsea for 60 or 70 million.
00:30:06
Conor Glennon
Yeah.
00:30:11
Killian Ginnity
And then you get a nice kind of sell on, on that. Um, cause I do think he actually plus the English tax, I think he could be that level of of a fee of a player.
00:30:19
Nate
But the just just quickly on Chris Rigg, the difference between, like say, him going for 25 million in the championship to United, yeah, that now becomes a 40, 45 if he's in the Premier League.
00:30:21
Killian Ginnity
Um, but.
00:30:30
Killian Ginnity
Hmm.
00:30:34
Nate
Do you know what I mean?
00:30:35
Conor Glennon
or does it go Or does it go the other way where people go, he was unbelievable in the championship, but can he hack it at this level?
00:30:35
Killian Ginnity
Yeah.
00:30:36
Nate
i
00:30:42
Conor Glennon
of And then you'll have the conversation of, he probably can if he gets three years experience in the Premier League, but then no one's going to pay 40 million for for a player that needs three years experience. You know, it's it's that kind of when to sell moment.
00:30:55
Killian Ginnity
Plus there's always that kind of question mark. If we do go up and we do go down, do we end up having to do a fire sale?
00:31:00
Conor Glennon
yeah Well, that's the other side of it.
00:31:00
Killian Ginnity
I don't think we do.
00:31:01
Conor Glennon
Yeah.
00:31:01
Killian Ginnity
I genuinely don't think we do, because I don't i think if we go up, I don't think we'd overspend in a way that would be beyond our means. I don't think we'd be full of them a few years ago, where they spent all of the money and then had to use all the parachute payments to cover it.
Competitiveness in the Championship?
00:31:16
Killian Ginnity
Does everybody remember Jean-Michel Seri?
00:31:18
Conor Glennon
Hahaha.
00:31:20
Killian Ginnity
and but like this one was one of the things I'm so happy about what's on the land is like we started off this conversation by going one win in seven potentially one win in eight and we're ending it kind of going how soon should we go to the Premier League because it's going to be
00:31:34
Conor Glennon
What what with the championship is, is that league though, Kan? Like that was the thing that I found the hardest about supporting Newcastle through those times is it is such like anyone can beat anyone in that league. You have two games a week. It's an absolute street fight of a league and like as exciting as that is when you're a fan in that league, it is so hard.
00:31:56
Killian Ginnity
And just a reminder that we're we're only in our third season back in the championship.
00:31:59
Conor Glennon
Yeah.
00:32:00
Killian Ginnity
Like we did very well.
00:32:00
Nate
But the we what you said there about, we started the conversation in turmoil and we ended it with, possibly going to the Premier League, but we're not there yet, are we?
00:32:00
Killian Ginnity
Our first one fumbled the second one.
00:32:01
Conor Glennon
You're kind of getting cocking now, like
00:32:04
Killian Ginnity
Now we are.
00:32:13
Nate
It still would win in seven.
00:32:16
Killian Ginnity
Yeah.
00:32:17
Nate
How quickly are we away from that snowball and into an actual, you know what?
00:32:21
Conor Glennon
but that's the But that's the thing, and like you you remember when Sunderland were like bottom of Christmas and won the league like, you know?
00:32:25
Nate
wow
00:32:28
Nate
Yeah, but but like as like at some point it becomes like, okay, why are we not getting results here now?
00:32:28
Killian Ginnity
Yeah.
00:32:33
Nate
Do you know what I mean?
00:32:34
Conor Glennon
How am I the one defending Sunderland here?
00:32:34
Nate
like
00:32:36
Conor Glennon
How did this happen?
00:32:36
Killian Ginnity
Yeah, I love this.
00:32:36
Nate
um like but they're five They're five points off the top, yeah?
00:32:42
Conor Glennon
Yeah.
00:32:42
Nate
But they're also there also like five points off 10th. And it's like, in four games, like, you know, like, then it becomes one in 10 and you could be sitting 13th and you're like, oh God, this, like, do you see what I mean?
00:32:46
Conor Glennon
Well, yeah, you kind of have to look it up a ways, yeah.
00:32:57
Nate
and is like
00:32:57
Killian Ginnity
But in the same token, because, because the championship is on such a knife edge, it could go the absolute other way. And suddenly we could be five points ahead.
00:33:03
Nate
four but but it's It's all over.
00:33:04
Killian Ginnity
Cause like it it is one of them ones where bottom can be top and top and top can beat second. Like it does. It's, it's such a nonsensical league. It's fantastic.
00:33:15
Killian Ginnity
and
00:33:15
Conor Glennon
i do think I do think if 7 becomes 12, you're in serious problems.
00:33:19
Nate
like it's It's all good that that like you can hop up and go down really quickly, but when your nose dies down and it's like, Caleb, we've got one win and 10 here, it's like, then that's a bit of a crisis, isn't it?
00:33:20
Killian Ginnity
Yeah.
00:33:31
Nate
it's like is Is this not now a very pivotal period for Thunderland that decides the manager possibly?
00:33:37
Conor Glennon
there's three There's three or four games that decide their season. And I'm not saying that it's it like as in, but that and then that is what decides the season, you know?
00:33:44
Nate
like
00:33:47
Killian Ginnity
i I don't think we're going to suck the manager this year.
00:33:51
Nate
Yay, we were talking.
00:33:51
Conor Glennon
When you say this year, do you mean like, and okay.
00:33:53
Killian Ginnity
This season. Um, because I think they've, they've backed him now after a very tumultuous change. As I mentioned earlier, the Tony Mober change because they wanted to progress on, then they didn't get who it they initially wanted, which is will still. And they settled with Mike Beal and that went horribly what wrong. And then they ended up an interim manager and true way the rest of the season. It's fine. They got a new guy in playing good football players love them. And now I think they've, they're kind of going, this is our guy. We have to back our guy.
00:34:25
Killian Ginnity
a that could change come the end of the year but like for you guys on the outside looking in and you've seen how well we were doing at the start of the season and in into the kind of the early wintery times and now the as yeah as as we keep going back to the the one and seven potentially one and eight um a lot of draws like it's
00:34:42
Conor Glennon
How many draws are in there though? It's not like you've lost six on the trot.
00:34:46
Nate
um There's a lot of draws in there, but I i still think i so i think it's it's a worry though. like
00:34:51
Conor Glennon
Oh, and it is, it's it's it's i like, you know, when we joke before that, you know, the wheels are coming off, like they're getting squeaky.
00:34:57
Killian Ginnity
Yeah, well, like the the last the last couple of results have been a 2-1 win, 1-0 loss, 0-0, 1-1, 2-2, 0-0, 0-0, 2-0 win. That's going back to the end of October. um So like it's it's not like we're
00:35:13
Conor Glennon
Getting smashed.
00:35:14
Killian Ginnity
Or or we're not it's not like we're not getting points. and But like from the outside looking in, having as I say, use of gotten tip be mate you've you've been forced to be aware of us doing reasonably well.
00:35:28
Killian Ginnity
If we ended up in the playoffs, regardless of where in the playoffs, would you think that's a season thrown away where we should have been challenging?
00:35:35
Conor Glennon
I don't, I don't. ah Look, look ah I think the championship is such a, competitively to be in playoff contention is is a good season. The only thing is the playoffs are a bloody awful place to be as a fan. Again, like it's, it's so brutal. Um, no, I, I, I think playoffs is what would have been, it wouldn't be a throwaway season. I think it would just be a season of that was expected.
00:36:02
Killian Ginnity
Well, Nate, before you answer, I just want to put in the context as well as we finished last year and 16th.
00:36:07
Conor Glennon
Yeah, but I think based off, I think that was a position you probably shouldn't have been in. And I think with the caliber of players that you've developed, I think the most pessimistic of fans would have said top half.
00:36:14
Killian Ginnity
Yeah.
00:36:21
Conor Glennon
And I think the most optimistic fans would have said playoffs. I don't think anyone was like, we're winning the league, we're going right back up. Grab your bags, we're going.
00:36:31
Conor Glennon
you know
00:36:32
Killian Ginnity
Nate, what do you think?
00:36:34
Nate
Um, that's a good question. What do I think?
00:36:36
Killian Ginnity
would would playoffs Would playoffs be a consolation prize if we we if we got there?
00:36:39
Nate
Um, no, but I also think that something's in a weird spot where he's possibly going to have too much youth for the championship in terms of.
00:36:54
Conor Glennon
you need You need some elder statesmen there who've got who've got've who've been around the block in that league.
00:36:57
Nate
Yeah.
00:37:00
Nate
is could that end up, and I think I brought that point up before, that like, is too much youngsters going to be the thing that lets you down in terms of not having the, the people like the the people that you need to mount that playoff runner or league win, you know what I mean?
00:37:05
Killian Ginnity
You did.
00:37:20
Nate
and So like, to be honest, like looking at a forum and like, i I don't know intimately what's happening in the club,
00:37:28
Killian Ginnity
Mm.
00:37:30
Nate
I'd be surprised if he's got playoffs based on what I'm looking at, but I also think if he's dead, I think that is a good season.
00:37:38
Killian Ginnity
Yeah. Like I think you're intelligent enough to know that like the rest of the years, um the rest of the season, not going to go like this last spell is like worst case scenario.
00:37:46
Conor Glennon
I call it, but it probably won't.
00:37:48
Killian Ginnity
No, no, like worst case scenario, like we'd still pick up wins and yeah, we could go through spells if not being great and we may not.
00:37:55
Nate
But just as one quick quick one, do you think the age of the team could be the thing that continues that far?
00:38:01
Killian Ginnity
But this was the the thing I really wanted to get it get it onto. So we do actually have some older players in there that everyone forgets are actually technically older or are as experienced as they are.
00:38:12
Killian Ginnity
Luco9 has been with us since our League One days and early on in the League One days and when he was an attacking midfielder coming from Wickham. And now he is a ah champion a top top championship level center back.
00:38:24
Killian Ginnity
Who would have saw that coming? Like we have, he is 27, 20, oh no, he's actually 30.
00:38:26
Nate
What age?
00:38:29
Nate
OK.
00:38:31
Conor Glennon
OK, yeah, that's that's more what what you need, because like you need you need guys who are just it's not even from a even experience point of view, it's from a mental fortitude point of view, because the.
00:38:32
Killian Ginnity
Um, yeah.
00:38:43
Killian Ginnity
Yeah, it's a grown grownupness. Uh, but like we have like Patrick Roberts, 27. We have Alan Brown, who is 29, but also has 377 league appearances for Preston.
Sunderland's Player Balance
00:38:55
Conor Glennon
Alan Brown is in play for Ireland, Alan Brown.
00:38:55
Killian Ginnity
We have, yeah, yeah. Yeah, current current Irish international Alan Brown, he who plays for us now. ah Chris Mepham, who is 27 from Bournemouth, like one of our our key striker now, Wilson Isidore, is 24, which I know it doesn't sound, it it isn't old by any stretch of the imagination, but he's older in our team. Then we have the likes of Dan Ballard, who is 25, but has been in Sunderland for what, three years and has experience under his belt now. and yeah
00:39:27
Killian Ginnity
ah in the team. So like, i I don't think we're at the stage where we need to go and get like an Esteban Cambiasso and like just have some old guy that's won a Champions League just for the sake of having them there.
00:39:38
Killian Ginnity
um Could we do could we do ah like another?
00:39:39
Nate
Boy, but I
00:39:41
Killian Ginnity
Well, I should say I don't think we we necessarily need another one. I think we could do with some of them older guys being in the team a little bit more often. and But I think the way our manager plays and the setup that he's using, having more youth with the this level of older player, I think is is the right combo.
00:40:02
Nate
what what do you think in terms of like you know we like your west problems your nor is they're like the the kings of going up every year and and inevitably going down.
00:40:08
Killian Ginnity
Yeah.
00:40:12
Nate
Do you think the bit of difference though with them is that their elder players, maybe not even elder, but they've got players in there that have been in the prem that have won championships and is is is that a bit of a thing that some of them might need to get up to?
00:40:30
Nate
when when you come down from the Premier League is then mounting a championship title that bit easier? A West Brom have a Mason Colgate. like He was being raved about a couple of years ago.
00:40:41
Nate
Do you know what I mean?
00:40:41
Killian Ginnity
Mm.
00:40:42
Nate
like I just wonder is there that like little extra level?
00:40:46
Killian Ginnity
Potentially, like when you look at the teams around us, Leeds, Sheffield, the likes of West Brom or Watford or in and around Middlesbrough, Middlesbrough or Blackburn, ah Burnley, and we're the only one doing anything different out of them.
00:40:52
Conor Glennon
season Premier League teams, you know.
00:41:02
Killian Ginnity
So I would If I was a gambling man, I'd rather take that odds. Like, if everybody else is doing the same thing, well, let's go the other way. And I would live and die by that sword. I would rather we did it this way and didn't make playoffs than do what West Brom are doing and still potentially miss out on it, you know?
00:41:20
Conor Glennon
Like you said, you've not been allowed to finish 16th last year, anything's gravy this year, you know?
00:41:25
Killian Ginnity
Anything's great. gray and But the other thing about it as well, the difference between us and them is if we have a reasonable season and even even if we don't go up, Our squad value goes up by 33% no matter what it's just because of their ages, we sell them on we get the next batch, and then the but next batch might be the right ones. You know, like, I just I just so believe in in in the plan. um and And we've seen time and time and time again like five years in the championship nowadays isn't long.
00:41:59
Conor Glennon
It's hard though, it's so hard.
00:41:59
Killian Ginnity
So, like, it's hard, but we spent five years in League One.
00:42:06
Conor Glennon
Yeah, yeah, it's less hard.
00:42:08
Killian Ginnity
But yeah um but ah a team that won't be in League One any time soon, and Nate, it is finally your time, and is Man United.
00:42:08
Conor Glennon
Yeah.
00:42:08
Nate
Okay.
00:42:17
Nate
Can you share that?
00:42:19
Conor Glennon
and
00:42:20
Killian Ginnity
here
00:42:20
Conor Glennon
a
00:42:22
Killian Ginnity
Even I'm not that pessimistic. But it's been a tough week as you said for yous. Dan Ashworth leaves Man United after five months having been chased for five months.
00:42:37
Conor Glennon
Chase for 10 on Garden Leaf for 5.
00:42:37
Killian Ginnity
and
00:42:41
Killian Ginnity
That's even worse. um So
00:42:47
Killian Ginnity
I don't want to say that's a big, big worry, and but I'd be very worried by that. after like he He was meant to be the guy, um and I think that's a bigger kind of thing that you guys should be looking at rather than the ah the loss against Nottingham Forest.
00:43:04
Killian Ginnity
Who, in fairness, Crispwood is doing very well.
00:43:06
Nate
Parks are good to him these days.
00:43:07
Killian Ginnity
yeah They're very doing very well.
00:43:08
Nate
but pi say
00:43:09
Conor Glennon
And before we dig into it, just for anyone who who's listening who may not be as close to the Dan Ashworth situation, in in in terms of he was brought in as a heavy hitter, one of the Avengers that Man United have kind of tried to to bring together. And the biggest kind of quote that stuck with me is Jim Radcliffe, when he brought him in and said he's clearly one of the top supporting directors in the world. So what the hell happened in the last five months?
00:43:39
Nate
first of all, I think it's hilarious. I just kind of laugh a little bit about it. I think it's, I just, like at this point, we, you know, I'm just there for the memes, like, and I just laugh.
00:43:47
Killian Ginnity
You are that meme dog that with the fire all around them going, this is fine.
00:43:50
Conor Glennon
Everything's fine.
00:43:52
Nate
I've, yeah, I've gone through too much shit in the last few years. Here I am. And yeah, it was surprising. And I woke up an hour after the news and I was like, what the hell is going on here?
00:44:05
Nate
And to be honest,
00:44:06
Killian Ginnity
So there was nothing in the run up to kind of give any clues that this is going to happen.
00:44:09
Nate
Well, from the outside looking in, it looks like there's a bit of clashes between Baratta and Wilcox. The way that they did work stuff is more in line between them than, say, ah Dan Ashworth. And by the sounds of it, he's paid for some of his decisions that he's made so far. So he decided, apparently he was the one that decided to keep Tenhag.
00:44:34
Nate
And yeah, he was a big one.
00:44:35
Conor Glennon
I swear it was. Okay.
00:44:40
Nate
He was a big proponent against signing the Licht and Mazzraoui. He wanted to sign Jared Brathwaite and someone else. So he was very much on the English side of that.
00:44:55
Nate
Then once Tenag was sacked, apparently he was against Gethin Cameron. The other two,
00:45:01
Conor Glennon
So he's really culturally against the decision-making process that it seems to be with the rest of.
00:45:04
Nate
yeah
00:45:07
Nate
Yeah, the other two wanted Amer and he he more wanted Garrett Southgate, which for that I think he deserves to be sacked. So yeah, like there just seems to be a big clash on where they all decided the club wanted to go.
00:45:21
Nate
and
00:45:21
Conor Glennon
But what what i what I don't understand it right is Dan Ashworth has historically worked at quite a slow but pace in terms of he he's a very process oriented create a structure create the structure right with the right people and over time it'll succeed it seems like Radcliffe is more gut decision we needed to you know impact straight away you know if if if he doesn't like something he just moves on as we've seen with Ashworth is is it a case of
00:45:56
Conor Glennon
he may have been doing a fine job. It's just not the style of operator that Radcliffe is used to. Because the thing that is baffling to me is Ineos' mantra is best in class. And their ownership over the last, is it a year even now, has been, fair like apart from, if they hadn't got Amorim in, I don't know what they got right.
Dan Ashworth's Departure from Man United
00:46:20
Nate
Yeah, the team with Ineos and it stood out for me from day one. I don't know about you guys. as It seems like a very like you're dealing with the boys type thing. Like we are top operators and we'll act that way.
00:46:30
Nate
And it's like is if Dan Ashworth wasn't like living up to that or not that he wasn't living up to that but was going against what all the others thought. It's like you could see how that relationship could become strained very quickly.
00:46:42
Conor Glennon
yeah
00:46:43
Nate
And then I just think like
00:46:43
Conor Glennon
Yeah.
00:46:46
Nate
Barada was their main guy. like I think he's someone that's very highly sought of. And then like they clearly went for him first. stop If Ashford's gone against every decision that the other two are making, and it's like something's got to give there.
00:47:04
Killian Ginnity
Was this man not interviewed? Because all of these things that you're saying seems seems to be so culturally different that surely a conversation that these kind of things would have come up.
00:47:08
Conor Glennon
I don't think he was. I generally don't think he was.
00:47:16
Killian Ginnity
It's like, oh yeah, if we were to sack our manager, who would you he would you think? Graham Potter? Well, I'd never hire him. Well, then why are you talking to him? like This just seems to be a fundamental like match made in hell.
00:47:27
Nate
Yeah.
00:47:29
Conor Glennon
do Do you think, boys, it's it's a case of there's too many cooks in the kitchen? don Forget ego. Forget any of that. I mean, straight up decision makers.
00:47:38
Killian Ginnity
I think that's part of it.
00:47:40
Nate
Well, the thing is, apparently Ashford was really against getting hammering and Barada just hopped on a plane and went and negotiated himself.
00:47:51
Nate
sort
00:47:52
Killian Ginnity
i I did read on that though um in Ashworth's defense that one thing that he wanted to do during that period is he wanted to help out Van Nistrooy from a coaching perspective and be there to help him as an interim who has not a world amount of ah ah managerial experience. And people forget that Ashworth actually started out as like a head of youth development. Like he he started out and like boots on the ground coaching level of things um and again that kind of just seems to be like fundamental like misunderstanding what Ashworth does and what he or he likes to.
00:48:31
Conor Glennon
But you you look at you look at what he did at ah at West Brom, you look at what he did at ah at Newcastle, he developed, like I said, he develops a process and it's it's a slow moving towards a ah ah very planned out goal. Well, this just seems to be, what what can we do in the next five minutes that'll work, lads? Oh, that didn't work on the next one. Oh, that didn't work on the next one. That's not a way to operate as one of the biggest clubs in the whole world.
00:49:00
Nate
The thing is, and what struck out to me is Dan Ashford seems a lot like a a sporting director, not a director of football in my opinion, in terms of he likes to, as you said, make up these micro, and I don't know what way to phrase it, like he puts in his own way of stuff and he implements it from the ground up, is where I think his role in United was more, no, you need to oversee that.
00:49:28
Conor Glennon
OK.
00:49:29
Nate
So like, they're not like you need to hire the people to do that like to to bring it all together. And I think that might've been
00:49:35
Conor Glennon
So he's the point man almost. He's kind of the quarterback as of the ah of of executing it as opposed to actually executing it.
00:49:39
Nate
and
00:49:41
Nate
Exactly. So like he'd be he'd be the one running multiple departments rather than him running his own department. which And to me, that's sort of where it could have gone wrong, is he wanted to make these decisions, these decisions, when in reality it needed to be a whole process, you know what I mean?
00:49:48
Conor Glennon
That makes a lot of sense.
00:49:59
Nate
and
00:49:59
Killian Ginnity
Yeah, athletic did report that when I don't know if it was down to the new management or some of the summer signings that like he was like, okay, yeah, I'll get, I'll get an outside crowd to come in with this data.
00:50:11
Killian Ginnity
And apparently Radcliffe didn't like that. He was kind of like, why, why aren't you doing it?
00:50:13
Conor Glennon
He's always done that though. He did that at Newcastle. He he he brings a team with him. he always has a couple of years like ah It's not massive, like but he he's always had a crew with him.
00:50:23
Killian Ginnity
Yeah, but it was just, I think Radcliffe was just like, what am I hiring you for?
00:50:27
Conor Glennon
ah that But is that coming from Radcliffe's cost cut inside of things?
00:50:27
Killian Ginnity
And it's a fun
00:50:30
Conor Glennon
Because he's penny pinching anywhere he can. like Do you think it was just the case where he's like, like that, why is there five of you? I expected one.
00:50:40
Killian Ginnity
And I don't know, but it just... I go back to it. Was he ever interviewed?
00:50:46
Conor Glennon
He literally wasn't though.
00:50:47
Nate
or the thing the thing was
00:50:47
Conor Glennon
he he was he like Jokes aside, he was not.
00:50:48
Killian Ginnity
like
00:50:51
Conor Glennon
There was no one else.
00:50:51
Killian Ginnity
Like, but that's scarier from from a Man United fan point of view. That's something you should be worried about that these guys are going... It's like going on a vocal manager kind of going, yeah, the stats look right.
00:51:02
Killian Ginnity
And asking nothing other than that.
00:51:04
Conor Glennon
Take your man a little Britain. I want that one.
00:51:06
Killian Ginnity
if
00:51:07
Nate
The detaining that The Athletic were saying was like he he expected to have more power and I think that's the difference is no offense to Newcastle and Brighton is when you're in there you you're running the show wearing United it's such a not that it's such a huge institution but it's like so structured and layered in so many different facets that you're just the piece of the clock
00:51:19
Conor Glennon
Oh yeah.
00:51:31
Conor Glennon
And like, I do think you're you're you're right with that, but where I would struggle as Dan Ashworth is Okay, look, Jim Radcliffe in a business perspective in the petroleum world or whatever part of the business he's involved in is a master of it.
Man United's Structural Challenges
00:51:47
Conor Glennon
Dave Brailsford was a master in his own world of ah you know British cycling. i'd we question like Even taking out the potential of performance enhancing drugs around British cycling.
00:51:53
Killian Ginnity
with question marks over
00:51:59
Conor Glennon
but like As Don Ashford would be like, okay, lads, yeah, you are very good operators in your fields, but this is my house. you know This is my wheelhouse. I should be the one making decisions here. So I do wonder looking back, will he go? I kind of should have seen this coming into this.
00:52:15
Killian Ginnity
I actually was chatting to a Man United fan about this and Nate, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it as well. is um I don't think they can replace him now because I think this is a middle that a director of football in how most football teams see them does not fit in how they want to operate and they don't need one.
00:52:33
Conor Glennon
So do you mean someone's going to double job or they just won't fill it?
00:52:36
Killian Ginnity
So they won't fill it because it's like if if he seems to be that like that but he's not really doing anything that Wilcox is doing X and Brad is doing Y well then why would they bother getting somebody else?
00:52:38
Nate
But the but and word in the street is it's Louis Campos or nothing.
00:52:45
Conor Glennon
I don't know. na Is there any truth in it? But I've heard they're looking at the athletic on Madrid guy, like their director of football. Okay.
00:52:57
Killian Ginnity
Louis Campos was the guy behind Monaco.
00:52:57
Nate
So, a PhD. ah bc
00:53:01
Killian Ginnity
He's currently at PSG but he was the guy behind that Monaco team where Mbappe came through but where they had Bernardo Silva.
Cultural Clashes at Man United
00:53:08
Killian Ginnity
He was initially where he kind of made his name was as a scout for Jose Mourinho at Real Madrid.
00:53:15
Killian Ginnity
He's like really well thought of especially in France as a director of football.
00:53:19
Nate
So, like, the room is as it's either him or when I fill in the gap. So, like...
00:53:24
Conor Glennon
Wasn't either the one that pissed off Messi though and basically made Messi leave?
00:53:28
Nate
Yeah, but, like...
00:53:29
Killian Ginnity
ah Yeah.
00:53:30
Nate
You know, it's messy, like...
00:53:32
Killian Ginnity
Yeah, like Messi wants to own the team.
00:53:33
Conor Glennon
It's Messi, like, I mean, boys!
00:53:36
Killian Ginnity
No, but he wants to own the team.
00:53:37
Nate
Yeah, but fellas, I don't want to dig through Miami after, like, you know what I mean?
00:53:37
Killian Ginnity
Like, ah it's his way of the own.
00:53:37
Conor Glennon
Yeah.
00:53:40
Nate
That show's very easy. But, yeah, like, to be honest, I was trying to hards out against a soccer ball of hands for me. So, like, I can't show up more shit.
00:53:48
Conor Glennon
i I heard other names.
00:53:49
Killian Ginnity
it's It's like Gaten Potter.
00:53:51
Conor Glennon
and I heard other names though.
00:53:51
Nate
Well, Eddie Howard, well, like, don't know, this is lackable offences.
00:53:52
Conor Glennon
I heard his is his list of of targets was at some point, Eddie, Marco Silva. ah
00:54:00
Killian Ginnity
Macro Silva would have been a good shout.
00:54:02
Conor Glennon
I don't think so.
00:54:03
Killian Ginnity
He's doing very well a fool.
00:54:05
Nate
But Reuben, like, it doesn't compare, do you know what I mean?
00:54:05
Conor Glennon
That's full of them though.
00:54:09
Killian Ginnity
Ah, I don't know.
00:54:09
Nate
And I genuinely think, by the sounds of it, that's why I broke the camel's back, because the only two dads are going, we like to look at his Reuben, I don't know, he's going fucking, oh, no, Garris, okay, like, But you know what I mean? It's hard to have a conversation after that and take them seriously.
00:54:24
Conor Glennon
I do think, though, the the the bid for me that's most laughable out of this is you spent £3m in compensation to buy them, you then paid a salary out, which will be more millions. And you know maybe this is for another podcast. and but
00:54:45
Nate
Did we pay salary?
00:54:45
Conor Glennon
like to Radcliffe's opinion, or Radcliffe's statements on the women's team and in the fact that they're they're almost there to just participate. And their operating costs for last year were eight and a half million quid. And you've just spent the guts of five, six million quid on getting this lad in. it's it's It doesn't make sense to me. And a man that's trying to be cost cutting and it seems like anything that's positive optics by getting Amoram, it's just been deplorable optics for him.
00:55:16
Nate
Did he win Radcliffe? is I don't think he gives a shit about the optics. I genuinely don't. I don't think he cares if fans are annoyed about ticket prices going up.
00:55:25
Conor Glennon
Are you like, are you, do you look at it going?
00:55:25
Nate
i don't
00:55:27
Conor Glennon
Okay. He may be a bit of a mad man in terms of scattered in his decision-making, but he'll do anything to make this work. So are you like, but like, how how long can you get away with that is my thing.
00:55:34
Nate
That's how I see it. I see it as his his way of thinking is, I don't care who I annoy. I don't care what side of someone I get on. is If this is work, I move and everyone everyone will love me.
00:55:53
Conor Glennon
but You know what I mean in terms of like, like there was the that hate could happen to him if we're five years in and he's still flintering, you know?
00:56:00
Nate
But was a protest here today. There was a protest there today on the ticket prices.
00:56:06
Nate
You know what I mean? There's nothing else came out of it. It's like, I genuinely, he he strikes me as someone that I'm like, I don't think he cares in terms of...
00:56:15
Conor Glennon
See, i where i I wonder will he look foolish is, you know, word on the street is Ashworth's potentially going to Arsenal. So yeah it's it's, I don't think this stint will hurt Ashworth's stock.
00:56:25
Conor Glennon
I don't know about you boys, but like, I think it's going to reflect poorly on Radcliffe in the long term.
00:56:30
Nate
I don't think we paid out of salary though. Like I don't think there's any way we paid out of salary without a cool off period.
00:56:38
Conor Glennon
Jesus, if I, if I was him, I don't know.
00:56:38
Nate
Do you know what I mean? So I think it's just like shaking hands, go separately, like rather than it. i
00:56:45
Conor Glennon
Jeez, he's a better man than me. I would have sat in my hoop and get that pay bait get fully paid out, and I'm not leaving until they give it to me.
00:56:51
Nate
If he's paid off, like surely Harrison can't go near him for two years then. Do you know what I mean?
00:56:56
Conor Glennon
Fair. Yeah, okay, fair.
00:56:57
Nate
like
00:56:57
Conor Glennon
If he wants to work, he's got to move. Or he's got to not take the combo.
00:57:03
Nate
is yeah I think that that was a made-up room, unfortunately.
00:57:05
Killian Ginnity
Uh, is there any, I saw, I saw the room go around that, uh, Radniak has put his hat back in the ring for that position.
00:57:13
Conor Glennon
Was that you putting that rumour out?
00:57:15
Nate
No, it wasn't.
00:57:16
Killian Ginnity
And not like in fairness, like if, if he did come back on stream, even if it was when he had temporary thing, I'd be telling you this just to go from like the man has proven time and time again, to be correct.
00:57:26
Conor Glennon
I just need that man's NDA to end so we can get the best book ever written in all of football.
00:57:27
Killian Ginnity
Um.
00:57:31
Nate
I hope you love. and
00:57:34
Killian Ginnity
One of the things that I found very interesting though about it Nate was apparently, and um this might just be a formality thing, but apparently it was Wilcox and Barada, Brailsford, Radcliffe and Joel Glazer that came together to make the decision and hashed it out.
00:57:51
Conor Glennon
Jesus, if if Joe Glaser's against you, you know you're in trouble, look.
00:57:55
Killian Ginnity
But apparently that that was that that was the round table that was like right, what's not working? Is it Ashworth? Should we move on? And do we make the decision? Apparently, it's always the right thing.
00:58:04
Conor Glennon
can i Can I ask one thing just in relation to that cabal? Does Brailsford have a title, like a job title? Because he he seems to be a minister of nothing.
00:58:12
Nate
he's he's the right no he's the head of sport at any else so like he oversees all the their projects and yeah he's just obviously he's like um he'll be Darth Vader's right on man like yeah he's got a lot of damage
00:58:15
Conor Glennon
like
00:58:21
Conor Glennon
but so he's obviously he's he's he's So he's an Ineos rebel, directly at Man United. He's just an Ineos plant, basically.
00:58:33
Killian Ginnity
He's clocked for a red bull now.
00:58:36
Nate
Yeah, like he oversees. m And, but like, I think the big thing, or the thing I heard, and loads of people have repeated it, is trying to get us marching orders after the forest game.
00:58:49
Conor Glennon
Yeah, I heard you walk he went straight down after after the game.
00:58:51
Nate
I wonder if that's going out.
00:58:52
Conor Glennon
it And put what's even worse is he'd family in the box at that game. I don't think he saw a comment.
00:59:01
Nate
Did something go on during the game, or like, do you know what I mean?
00:59:04
Conor Glennon
yeah if i so what i What I read was, um ah I'm not too sure what her position is, but one of the C-suites, female and
00:59:14
Nate
Clat root, and then it finally got escorted through the media area.
00:59:15
Conor Glennon
Yes, her. She, after the game, brought him down to Barada, and Barada was basically like, pack your bags, you're done. So i I don't know. Did they do it in that way that he couldn't complain publicly?
00:59:30
Killian Ginnity
If so, that's neat.
00:59:35
Conor Glennon
Like, imagine going to a game as director of football and you've got your family in the club box with you, game ends, you're like, great sound, not the result we wanted, and you get marched out of the CEO's office and told, pack the bags, like, that's some good fella shit lad.
00:59:52
Nate
He must feel like a failure although now in terms of like opening and leaving.
00:59:56
Killian Ginnity
He left a surer thing.
00:59:57
Nate
Yeah. Do you know what I mean?
00:59:59
Killian Ginnity
But like in fairness, I know you're saying that you may not be looking to replace him at all. and And I don't think you should, because I think it'd be more embarrassing if you do, unless it is maybe Ocampo. So as long as you're saying it's him or nobody, and but like, what does that say to anybody else looking to take that kind of position? Like surely anybody now kind of goes, so he said you'd back him.
01:00:22
Conor Glennon
do do that far Does that foster a yes, man?
01:00:22
Nate
make sure when you come in possibly but maybe it also fosters not getting suggested guys okay to take over like you like you know you don't really like use no my opinion on say okay it's like
01:00:33
Conor Glennon
Well, sure, if the rumors are right, he's he's backing out of management completely.
01:00:40
Nate
I struggled to find a sympathy in me when I get told that this guy was going to the CEO and going like, let's hire a guy who's okay as manager. Like, do you see where I'm going from? Like, it it's hard to sympathize.
01:00:54
Killian Ginnity
theres There's no defending a suggestion like that, but... like you Like, you don't know what what his full list was. like Obviously, these are like the worst things that are going to come out now when he's the one getting sacked and he can't defend himself.
01:01:09
Conor Glennon
And he can't defend himself because he'll be on an NDA.
01:01:12
Killian Ginnity
So like it's we're not you're not going to get a true picture of any anything that's going to give him any good light. But also, as ah Connor you that said it multiple times, that like he likes to take his time and put these things in.
01:01:27
Killian Ginnity
him being in in there in there for five months that's like but like that's that's before look that's a before lunch in in in in a tenure for him like give him five months and he's he's just learned the place give him yeah yeah and like
01:01:42
Conor Glennon
i'd say yeah he's yeah he's He's literally just set up a shop. it's not He's not even impacting things at that point.
01:01:49
Nate
I think it was the decisions he made ah like during that time. like like He was clearly very vocal about a lot of things. I went against what the majority of the rest wanted.
01:01:59
Nate
you know
01:01:59
Killian Ginnity
Well, and in in fair in fairness, if everybody else is saying the same thing, the yes man kind of thing does kind of come into it.
01:02:08
Conor Glennon
But that's it.
01:02:08
Nate
but book no But I think this this is what it is.
01:02:09
Killian Ginnity
and
01:02:11
Nate
it's like He thought he was going to be running the show. yeah like he has in his other jobs where in reality it became we work it's more of a team thing it can't just be like i want this you get it you know i mean i think he became frustrated with that and i wouldn't be surprised it was more just a mutual thing shake it hands off you go like but yeah i like i don't know how the last ending minutes of it went but i wouldn't be surprised that they're both fed up with it
01:02:42
Conor Glennon
but i just I'd love to know, and we never will, but like I'd love to know, does Barada feel like he can say no to Brailsford or Radcliffe? Does Brailsford just say whatever Radcliffe wants him to say? What is that structure? Because it doesn't feels like this cabal of yes men.
01:03:04
Nate
um I answer that. I don't know.
01:03:08
Conor Glennon
but you need you to find out now you need to
01:03:11
Nate
I've never met...
01:03:13
Killian Ginnity
ah
01:03:16
Killian Ginnity
Nate, like the way Man United looks now and maybe it's not so much a yes man kind of thing as they have a picture in their head that they're all trying to the paint in the same way and it's really it's really really really reminiscent now of Man City circa 2011-2012 where Davis
01:03:16
Nate
Yeah.
01:03:39
Conor Glennon
be fine.
01:03:40
Killian Ginnity
No, no, though that was 2008, 2009. After that, when they started making the good decisions, but their good decision was, what did Barcelona do? Let's do that, and let's get the people that made that happen. So that's where they like the chicks he came in. And then they went and got, OK, we can't get Guardiola yet, so we'll get X, Y, and Z instead. Oh, wait, Guardiola's coming up. We'll technically sack Pellegrini by February and tell him, and and the world, yeah, Guardiola's coming in at the end of the year and you're done.
01:04:08
Killian Ginnity
like it seems to be that kind of thing where Barada's idea is, oh, well, that city we used to, okay, well, then let's go and do that. Well, at city we were looking at Amarin, well, let's go and do that.
01:04:19
Killian Ginnity
Well, you better do it quick, because they're getting Vienna. Would that worry you that their plan seems to be copying your your your neighbor's homework?
01:04:28
Nate
no and No, like I think the thing we lacked was structure and I think that's one of the things that we've got right is there is a structure whether we sacked one or not and like I'm all for copying city because it's really something that worked and it just needs to be then you commit to that and here that that's your five-year plan and
01:04:29
Killian Ginnity
Successful as it has been.
01:04:54
Nate
Like the team, like I don't know Barada very well, but he seems to be very well respected for whatever reason that is. and So like whatever decision he makes, I back it for him now until I'm given a reason otherwise not to. But I think like going out and getting an hammering, he was very quick with that. It was like to me that's a positive step. And now he's just providing them with the tools to do what we want. and ah Do I think we're like a city, like I wonder, was Jim Radcliffe taking a step backwards eventually?
01:05:36
Conor Glennon
I don't know he he seems to be lurking in the shadows and I think that is one thing that's a bit of a problem he.
01:05:36
Nate
and then it
01:05:43
Conor Glennon
he For me he's either all in or all I was not this I mean when I wanna be. You know.
01:05:51
Nate
Yeah like I wouldn't be surprised if he took his backseat eventually and just like I think they're just they' they've got to put their money where their mouth is like in terms of looking like that they're doing stuff and I think I think, was the result so bad that someone had to take a bullet for her? Do you know what I mean? Like, hypothetically thinking like, was there too many bad decisions made across the board that someone had to pay the price for? I personally don't think so, but I could see how other people could.
01:06:28
Killian Ginnity
I think there was bad decisions made, but I think they predated Ashworth. Like in fairness.
01:06:32
Conor Glennon
I do think he came in like, people are looking at the recruitment and you know, they've spent 600 million.
01:06:42
Killian Ginnity
And ah yeah, they haven't got ah got a whole lot ah him for it, but like.
01:06:48
Nate
Ashford decided to keep 10 out of it. Like, that was his decision. Do you know what I mean?
01:06:53
Killian Ginnity
But is is
01:06:54
Nate
So like, he's directly responsible for what followed then.
01:06:58
Killian Ginnity
But like, is is that down to him trying to buy it by himself? time but coming on Listen, if this is the structure that's here and this is what we're trying to build off and you're not looking to get rid of them yet, well, then yes, absolutely. I'll keep them and I'll build around him and I'll make my plans accordingly. And that's like, that's the kind of conversations I wonder, did was that what was had before he arrived? Him kind of going, right.
01:07:21
Killian Ginnity
10 hags for your guy. Yeah. We're going to, where you have 10 hags. So you could make a plan to coordinate. So when he comes in and he's looking at his own plans, kind of going, yeah, well, I'm after spending three months putting together a holding for 10 hags system. Don't be asking me to get rid of them because yeah, of course I'm going to say keep them because that's what I've planned for.
01:07:37
Nate
Yeah, but like, I wonder if there's the part of it that was like someone had to pay the price for being 15th in the Premier League.
01:07:47
Killian Ginnity
And the guy that that's only in the door is the one, the first one out.
01:07:50
Nate
But the are that's the thing is they're all only in the door.
01:07:52
Conor Glennon
It's a real mafia hit, thy boys.
01:07:54
Nate
You know?
01:07:55
Conor Glennon
It's it's a real, you know, for what's the Luca Brasi kind of kill.
01:08:01
Killian Ginnity
It's very, very, very odd timing because unless, as I say said before, like, unless the likes of Wilcox or Brad are going to step up into the and kind of do some of that ah role, it'd be very worry worrying January transfer window for you. so
01:08:16
Nate
um yeah maybe but like something that's come out is um do you know the guy that used to be a chelsea vivel he's
01:08:27
Conor Glennon
i don't know I don't know much about
01:08:27
Killian Ginnity
Oh, yeah.
01:08:29
Nate
our head of recruitment currently he's only on a he's only on a loan deal in terms of like he's only mentally here for a short time But apparently he's been taking a lot of the load for January. and he's like That's been his baby. So I guess we'll see. Is it an audition for the full-time role? Who knows? But he's the one currently directing us. So it'll be interesting to see what plans he has.
01:08:52
Conor Glennon
I don't want to wish away Christmas but I'm excited to see what that January brings.
01:08:57
Nate
Yeah.
01:08:58
Killian Ginnity
Yeah, I think it's going to be ah an an interesting one. um We'll do one quick round robin before we finish up as it is our last regular ah episode before we go. Connor, are you optimistic for the rest of the season with Newcastle?
01:09:14
Conor Glennon
I'd like to say yes, but it's it's no. i I think I said at the start of the year, wait I think I said it's to finish like sixth or seventh. I would be surprised if we finished top half at this point.
01:09:28
Killian Ginnity
Nate, are you positive for the rest of the season?
01:09:32
Nate
No.
01:09:35
Conor Glennon
These were a happy bunch of us three, aren't we?
01:09:35
Nate
No.
01:09:38
Nate
I think it's just like, hey, Amaran, do what it takes to get to the squad right over the next six months.
01:09:44
Conor Glennon
10 years.
01:09:45
Nate
Yeah. And to be honest, I'm at the point this season already where I'm not going to be paying much attention to the the results. I want to see performances we've added in results.
01:09:56
Nate
So, you know.
01:09:57
Conor Glennon
So where are you saying you finish?
01:10:00
Nate
heaven Think, Ace.
01:10:05
Conor Glennon
I was going to say sixth or seventh.
01:10:08
Killian Ginnity
I think if you can challenge for Europa Conference League, you'd be happy enough.
01:10:12
Conor Glennon
Are you, Sicilian, final one on you? Are you joining us in the prime next year or are you not?
01:10:19
Killian Ginnity
I'm going to say, yeah, because that's more fun.
01:10:23
Nate
but
01:10:24
Killian Ginnity
I don i i don't think it would be going up as championship champions. I'd be surprised if it go up automatically. um I think it could be a playoff run, which if you had asked me in the middle of the summer, I would have said, yeah, that would have been amazing.
01:10:37
Killian Ginnity
um If we don't go up, I won't be sad as long as we're within playoffs. Like if we don't get up via playoffs, I'd be like, perfect. We're nailed on for the year after, which gives our players another year in the legs and then suddenly they'll be actually capable for the Premier League the following season.
01:10:57
Killian Ginnity
ah But if we do get up, I'd be absolutely chuffed. And um yeah.
01:11:02
Conor Glennon
for the For the podcast alone, we need we need the three teams in the prime.
01:11:06
Killian Ginnity
Oh, it'd be class, it'd be class. If, if, uh, we, uh, if we do get up, we will be doing a live in Sunderland or Newcastle, Tynewear Derby, even if we can't get tickets, three of us are going to go over for the match.
01:11:21
Conor Glennon
We'll be sottin' Wetherspoons.
01:11:23
Nate
I've not gone out with my stash, mate. Fuck.
01:11:26
Killian Ginnity
Here, you could be you could be you could be down at our end of the day, well, anyway, Nash, by the time this guy comes around.
01:11:30
Nate
if
01:11:32
Killian Ginnity
um So it it could be it could be fun. no i'm I'm very positive for this season. and I think it's going to end well. like like It's going to end like it started well, maybe a blip in the middle, but it's fine.
01:11:44
Killian Ginnity
um And I think we're going to, as a club, make a lot of money from some excellent recruitment um and the class.
01:11:51
Nate
lads we're all not on blips let's get that right all right we're all we're on the dungeons
01:11:56
Conor Glennon
It's Team Squeaky Wheels, it's is what this part is now called.
01:11:59
Nate
yeah
01:12:01
Killian Ginnity
Well, ah as as the Hangsman noose goes around both of your necks, I'm still whistling Dixie with the but my lovely rope necklace. sh It's all about perspective. Gentlemen, thank you very much for joining me, as always, and thanks to you, the listener.
01:12:21
Killian Ginnity
Be sure to listen in for our end of year special. It will be in your feeds after Christmas and before New Year's. and You know, when you're kind of already watched all the Christmas specials, you're on your second tin of roses and you're really hating yourself.
01:12:36
Nate
all the turkey's gone
01:12:38
Killian Ginnity
Yeah, we'll we'll be there for then. Goodbye.
01:12:41
Nate
by
01:12:41
Conor Glennon
but Bye-bye.