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Eoin Everard
240 Plays2 months ago
This week, we’re joined by Eoin Everard, a sub 4-minute miler, physiotherapist, and the current 3k World Indoor Masters Champion! With a background in injury prevention, Eoin shares incredible insights for runners of all ages and abilities.
Michelle and Eoin chat about:
- How Eoin's journey led him to becoming a world champion
- Staying competitive as a runner into your 30s and beyond
- Why you should ignore pace, and train by effort
- Why you shouldn't try to change your running form
- Improving movement and mobility
- The role of Pilates in injury prevention and enhancing performance
- Practical advice on managing and preventing back pain.
- How to introduce plyometrics to your training regime safely and easily.
Whether you're a seasoned runner or just getting started, this episode is packed with actionable advice to help you train smarter and stay injury-free.
Follow Eoin on Instagram
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast and Guest
00:00:00
ukrunchat
Hi, welcome to today's episode of the UK Run Chat podcast. Today I'm joined by Owen Efrad, who's here to talk to us about primarily back pain, biomechanics, strength training, all those things we probably don't talk about enough as runners. Hi, Owen. Thank you so much for coming on and chatting to us. Would you like to give us an introduction to our listeners, to those of us who aren't familiar with your work?
00:00:24
Eoin _Owen_
Thanks Michelle, thanks for having me on. Yeah, so Owen Everard, I have a PhD in Biomechanics and I'm a Chartered Physiotherapist, kind of specialising back pain. I have a product ah product called the back of wear belt, gives you feedback on your back position. um And then we have like, I do a lot of sports Pilates, like kind of Pilates for runners and I am myself a runner, I'm a subformant mileer sub sub 14 minute 5k runner and sub 13 and a 10k runner and i was the european world uh over 35 3k champions so yeah that's a little bit about me
00:00:59
ukrunchat
Yeah, so quite a lot of experience. So let's talk first about your own running, like how how do you get to that level?
Owen Efrad's Running Journey
00:01:05
ukrunchat
What's your running background? What's your history?
00:01:07
Eoin _Owen_
yeah just just what it started when i was younger um then in my teens kind of went away from it come back to basically my brother um ran for arland in
00:01:18
Eoin _Owen_
I get like 15 and started just rubbing it in my face. So I was like, oh, I'll come back into this, run for Ireland one time and then i'll I'll give up. And I just got the bug for it. And I've been basically running ever since. We got a really, you know, four or five guys that same age, same kind of and mindset that we just kind of run together. It's very enjoyable. um Yeah. And so you just keep going, don't you? And then you get old and you're like, okay, I'll better enter or something.
00:01:45
ukrunchat
So what changes because you, you are, you're the current 3k world indoor master's champion. Have I got that right?
00:01:52
Eoin _Owen_
Yeah.
00:01:52
ukrunchat
So how do you maintain your running at that level as you begin to age? Because it does get harder, doesn't it?
00:01:59
Eoin _Owen_
Definitely, yeah. I think the key thing you need to do is, like there's no, well, there's a few things you can do for success, but one kind of key way for failure is trying to train exactly as you did in your twenties.
Adapting Training with Age
00:02:10
Eoin _Owen_
You're a different, as you said, as you age, you get different strengths and you get different weaknesses. um So it's all about like, you know,
00:02:19
Eoin _Owen_
Like not doing, you know, I would have done three sessions a week, like prioritizing. Now I do like two workouts in the week. I might have had a rest day back in the day. I know I always have one rest day. Having something like a sports Pilates or something just to restore the body because when you're younger, you you just have that more natural like recovering capacity. So you kind of have to and adjust your body accordingly. That being said, I know there was kind of some of the negatives But you do get a lot more aerobically strong. So when I was younger, I was way, I was more powerful. I was actually more, was faster, but I wasn't as aerobically strong. But the aerobic base I'm building now allows me to do better in some certain events as I got older, you know, and I'm actually probably physically stronger, which also helps in those events. So, you know, I'm still running well. Our club won the All Ireland Senior competition and I came like,
00:03:13
Eoin _Owen_
15th in that in in Ireland and like my best ever was sixth to run for Ireland so it's not far off that so you know I actually bet that guy Cottle Doyle he was at the Olympics he ran really well so you know he can still run well but like obviously he beat me on a sprint now but I was able to beat him in a more of an endurance based endurance based event
00:03:24
ukrunchat
Oh, really? Yeah.
00:03:33
ukrunchat
Yeah, so are you kind of doing different events now then as you're getting a bit older?
00:03:37
Eoin _Owen_
Yeah, I used to do 1,500 meters. Now I do more like 5Ks, 10K just to break the 30 minutes, but um yeah, more like 5Ks I like. and now But I still can do 1,500s and 3K. I think, and as you said, it's just key is just adapting the program site. Do have more more recovery in it, have maybe dropped down to two kind of workouts in the week.
Effort-Based Training Approach
00:04:01
Eoin _Owen_
The other thing I've done as I've got older is go to a more like heart rate, effort based system. You know, when you're, if you're in your 20s and you have less, you know, responsibility, or you have more time, I used to do things much more on time, like try to hit a certain time for my, my efforts. Now I kind of realized that, you know, you're busy with work, you might be busy with family,
00:04:25
Eoin _Owen_
getting out and doing it way more effort-based like I get lacked do a lactic threshold test if you did one in your life you'd have the results forever and it gives you kind of heart rate zones to hit so I just do it like okay so rather than doing five by a mile I might do five by five minutes at lactic threshold so I'm just trying to hit a certain heart rate 80% kind of 85-90% effort but I'm doing it off the heart rate so if I am tired my heart rate is going to be higher at a slower pace but I've still got the the actual stimulus I need and then if I have a big race coming on I might switch back to a time-based thing only like three weeks out before a race ah to get that but the majority of the time
00:05:09
Eoin _Owen_
I'm going on effort, going on minutes as opposed to having to hit specific times. So it's not putting that additional stress on me. And I think that's really helped.
00:05:18
ukrunchat
Yeah, that's a really good tip actually, because we we can get we can get very kind of worried about our pace if it's below what we what we believe it should be, can't we?
00:05:25
Eoin _Owen_
hundred percent 100%.
00:05:28
ukrunchat
But it can, like you say, it can change depending on what's been happening to us that week or that month.
00:05:33
Eoin _Owen_
Yeah, exactly. Like you could have a heavy, you always hear people, oh, this is my marathon piece. And two things they do there is, As you said, they're not accounting for variations in the week, like cause they do it off heart rate and lactic and the lactic test is only costing about a hundred pounds. So it's not like, you know, just, and you only need it one time in your life. So, um, the key thing with that is like, you're still getting the actual benefit that you're looking for it. You're still improving aerobically, you're fitter after that session, but it allows for variation. The second thing that we do is we pick these times, they're either arbitrary of a time I'd like to run.
00:06:09
Eoin _Owen_
Oh, I'm going to target a three-hour marathon, so I'm breaking it down. but even if or Or I ran three hours for a marathon, so this is my marathon pace. But the day you ran three hours for a marathon, you had tapered for two weeks, you had hydrated, you had eaten really well, you you had all the adrenaline of the crowd going around.
00:06:29
Eoin _Owen_
You know, now it's a windy day and like I'm from Kilkenny. It's a windy day in Kilkenny. I'm going early because I got work on and I got to, you got to bring kids somewhere after work and you're like, you're struggling to hit three hour marathon pace. It's like, what are you doing? Like that wasn't, that wasn't a scenario. Do it like marathon effort, even, you know, if you didn't have your heart rate, do it like, okay, switch off. Does this feel the same as when I ran that time, you know, where I think a lot of times attempting to hit these times, wonder either arbitrary or two it was not in this we're not we're not comparing apples to apples here we're comparing like apples to oranges of like pure peak versus just random day and wondering why there's a discrepancy oh i can't run that time it's like yeah of course we build up to these things for a reason
00:07:15
ukrunchat
Yeah, that's such good advice actually. So what kind of place can people find these lactate threshold tests at?
00:07:22
Eoin _Owen_
loads of like any place that does like sports science basically like if a sports science university generally they'll offer up like any yeah any universities if people want to reach out to us we know a few people who do them around the Ireland and the UK. You can go to, like, Everard is my second name, E-V-E, or that's or for rabbit, A-R-D, at Platt-A-S-P-I-L-A-T-E-S dot com, at gmail dot.com, so Everard Platt-A-S at gmail.com. Just tell us where you are, and we'll tell you if we have some in the area. But generally, a university does sports science.
00:07:56
Eoin _Owen_
If you just check, they'll probably do a lactic test. Now make sure you get a lactic test and not a VO2 max test.
Lactic Threshold vs VO2 Max Tests
00:08:02
Eoin _Owen_
Okay. It has to be a lactic test. And what you'll need then is a chest heart rate strap. The wrist ones are terrible. Don't, don't go on those at all. So you go a chest strap, like a Garmin one costs about 50, 50 euros, maybe like 40 pounds. Um, and then a lactic test. You'd only ever have to get one because it's an internal measure. You know, I did my first one, I was maybe 18.
00:08:25
Eoin _Owen_
I'm 38 now, my my scores are roughly the same. you know it's I'm down a few beats, but if i if I just kept the same ones as I had at 18, it'd make no difference.
00:08:34
ukrunchat
Yeah, so that doesn't really change as you age them.
00:08:37
Eoin _Owen_
No, and people worry also, I'm not fit enough at the moment. like it's Because it's an internal measure, it doesn't matter. like it's a If you're on fit and you're running, say, 10 minute miles, for example, that might feel like 10 out of 10 effort.
00:08:54
Eoin _Owen_
you get fitter, you can run eight minute miles, but it's still a 10 out of 10 effort. The thing that's changed is the external time and pace. Your internal calibration of that is still a 10 out of 10. It's not like you're like, when you're running 10 minute miles, you're like oh like, oh, well that's only eight out of 10, because when I'm fit, that 10 out of 10 will be eight minutes. And it's the same, the heart rate will respond the same, the tactics will respond basically the same. The things that change are the external pace or times that we're doing.
00:09:24
ukrunchat
Yeah, yeah, thank you for clarifying that. So what's the difference with the VO2Max then? Because i we see a lot of people posting the VO2Maxes online on UK with that.
00:09:32
Eoin _Owen_
Yeah, VO2 max looks at like how much oxygen you can use. um yes So sorry, how much oxygen you can use effectively. So it's ah it's a when the test is harder, because you have to get to your max oxygen consumption, the lactic looks at when you stop going from aerobic energy systems into anaerobic. So for example,
00:09:58
Eoin _Owen_
as you're running right if you think of a hybrid car it's a good analogy if you're driving a hybrid car and it's fully electric as you continue on it can be fully electric as the speed goes up at some stage it's going to switch in it like if you start seeing like ah smoke out the exhaust it's switched to the petrol because it's gone too fast okay and we're bodies are same we're predominantly aerobic at slower at slower events or slower ah speeds slower intensities so we can go from fully aerobic and the the lactic in our body is like the exhaust fumes that will tell us when we're fully electric or fully aerobic
00:10:42
Eoin _Owen_
And when it starts to increase a little bit, that tells us that some petrol or some anaerobic um energy systems is being used. So what will happen is you'll go easy and that'll be your zone one really easy recovery. You'll have a little bit of a spike and that's what we call like our kind of extensive aerobic. You can still run like three hours at that pace, but there's a little bit of a anaerobic being used. It's not 100% aerobic. It's not 100% easy.
00:11:10
Eoin _Owen_
Then it'll move to extensive aerobic, which would be a marathon pace. So again, what we could basically do a marathon. And then we have our lactic threshold, which is like the last point where it's predominantly aerobic. Any increase in speed now, it's like the the battery is flat out. If you want to go any faster, it's just purely petrol. It's purely anaerobic. Now, the distances that we do, like say 5K, 10K, half marathon, they are aerobic events.
00:11:41
Eoin _Owen_
you know, the like the anaerobic ones are your 800, 1500 is like 60% anaerobic, 60% aerobic, 40% anaerobic. So if we want to improve at the aerobic events, we're better off training aerobically.
00:11:58
Eoin _Owen_
you know and that That will improve us quicker than running anaerobically, digging in. That's the person who, they go off too fast, they die in the middle, and they kind of come back at the end. We want to have a bigger aerobic base and then top it up with a little bit of anaerobic. So the lactic test allows you much more accurate figures on the heart rate than the VO2 max, because that's more what the oxygen consumption is. It's not as tied to it.
00:12:23
ukrunchat
Yeah, that's a fantastic analogy actually with the hybrid car. I love that. I've not heard that one before, but it makes perfect sense.
00:12:28
Eoin _Owen_
yeah that's good
00:12:29
ukrunchat
Yeah. That's great. So are you a kind of an advocate of a kind of high volume,
Structuring a Training Week
00:12:36
ukrunchat
low intensity kind of training ethos then?
00:12:40
ukrunchat
Is that what you're kind of saying or what would you recommend doing? Yeah, okay.
00:12:43
Eoin _Owen_
yeah well ah well well one i think i think people train too hard generally like because they they go into that anaerobic zone you know so you there's a thing of like a principle of specificity you've got to train
00:12:55
Eoin _Owen_
the way you want to run so if you want to improve aerobic you've got to train aerobically so people digging in in sessions it's like you're getting better at the anaerobic but you can't use that that much in a race so generally on my weekend I would train I would do two kind of workouts in the week um I then I would do at least one long run, do two easy runs and in the of the workouts one would be an aerobic kind of lactic threshold zone three that kind of marathon pace stuff and yeah building that base or trying to get up to
00:13:29
Eoin _Owen_
you know we start might maybe start with three by seven minutes at zone three trying to build that to like five by seven minutes at zone three and then starting like three by six minutes um or five minutes of zone four which is threshold and bringing that up to maybe three by seven minutes of threshold and then the other session can be really specific so there's there's only three things that improve your um running performance it's running running economy how smooth you are your lactic threshold and then VO2 max. So you kind of want to be, which would be kind of more race specific work. So you want maybe a one race specific work, but again, race specific work, sorry, I can just rub it on. So cut in when it's not making sense. Race specific work, like we said, is not,
00:14:16
Eoin _Owen_
I want to run, so I've run like say, you know, 13 minutes, 50, but in in training, I wasn't like always hitting that. Running like 10 seconds below that target time, just to get the rhythm of it is perfect. I don't want to be putting myself under savage pressure. So yeah, just, and I generally would do that like minute on, minute off. So just very, I'll just give a typical week just to show kind of what I mean, I might help people. So we said we might have a session on or a workout on Wednesday that would be,
00:14:45
Eoin _Owen_
five by seven minutes at some three pace of off a minute recovery so that's that think of your marathon pace basically so you're nice and relaxed covering you're still working hard but it's like 70 75 effort might do some four by 20 second strides afterwards and then on saturday If it was just kind of a base build phase, it might be like two by five minutes at threshold, at zone four, off 90 seconds. So a bit 80, 85% effort. And then maybe 10 by one minute at on, a one minute off, at 10K effort.
00:15:20
Eoin _Owen_
you know so turning the legs but just doing it off 10k feel even if it's just in a park or whatever just it's quicker than lactic threshold and not overly forcing it or that might be like 10 by one minute of a hill where i'm just going up the hill again feeling like i could do a few more and then finish off like five minutes or ten minutes of zone three or zone four again that would be an example of that
00:15:45
ukrunchat
Yeah. Okay. Thank you. So you you are a, you're a specialist in biomechanics, aren't you?
Biomechanics and Running Form
00:15:51
Eoin _Owen_
Yes, yeah, that's what my PhD is
00:15:51
ukrunchat
So just talk to me about, cause we get a lot of questions about people trying to kind of change the running form.
00:15:55
Eoin _Owen_
in, yeah.
00:15:58
ukrunchat
How, how much of it a big deal is that?
00:15:58
Eoin _Owen_
Brilliant, love this.
00:16:01
ukrunchat
Should people be worrying about their running form?
00:16:02
Eoin _Owen_
No, no, no, not at all. So do not change your running form. Do not do anything like that. Totally BS, does not make any sense.
00:16:14
ukrunchat
Why are people so worked up about it? and Where does this come from?
00:16:16
Eoin _Owen_
i
00:16:19
Eoin _Owen_
People, People always want a silver bullet for things. I had a friend, he's a doctor, so we like he was a really good school friend, so really happy, reconnected, and he's gone, like he's busy now, he's got three kids, so, and he's running a GP practice, so he's busy, so, but we went for went for lunch, and obviously knows I'm a good runner, and he's like, yeah, I'm back running, like, I get out once every two weeks, and I was like, oh dude, you gotta pump those numbers up, as they say, on Wilfel Wall Street, you know?
00:16:48
Eoin _Owen_
um All right, and he's like, yeah, I was watching Joe Rogan and he was talking about, he had an a guest on, the double breath. So you go, and then breathe. And slowed men to add I was like, dude, you run once every 14 days. That's the issue. Not the double breath. Oh yeah, you're right, you're right. And then later on, I meant to do something like arm carried. I saw this guy, he was doing this drill. I was like, dude, your only problem is you run once every two weeks. That's the issue. like double bread the the hops. So I think people are always like, what is there I can do? Now, that's not to say running economy, which would be your biomechanics, how smooth you run. If we use our car analogy there, it's like, if the tires are pumped up fully, if the windows are up, you're with the same effort, you are moving forward faster. Where the issue is is,
00:17:44
Eoin _Owen_
that your body, what you want to do is you need to give your body the building blocks. for it to run efficiently. So we do our sports Pilates, say we're, it's really targeted for our runners. ah You can get free trial at everywhere. Pilates.com is a cheeky plug. But what we're doing is, you know, improving the, more the body is basically designed to be either mobile or stable. So you're improving like the mobility at the ankle, improving the mobility at the hip and upper her back and rib cage. You get a bit more stable around the glutes and around the core and improve your balance. So you're giving yourself all the,
00:18:20
Eoin _Owen_
the actual base building blocks and i said my brain goes a bit mad all over the place so i'm going to bring it in here but i'll come back to that so you need the base building blocks good example is this i had a sprinter he had a hamstring issue he like torn his hamstring so he's out for six weeks We did a lot of core work because a lot of hamstring issues aren't really at the hamstring, improving the pelvis, getting that kind of stuff moving. So he does a comprehensive enough rehab based on basically Pilates. His coach comes up, he's really like into it. And he's like, he had all the books on like screening and movement that I had recommended. I was like, oh, this guy's really into it. He's like, Aaron was great. He's like, Aaron, I've been trying to teach Aaron
00:19:06
Eoin _Owen_
these sprint drills for maybe two years and he hasn't got it. He's come back off this six week injury and he's just he's just running well and I was like yeah because what you're trying to do is he doesn't have the capability like if you don't have the mobility if you don't have the base stability the motor control is the technique it's not going to come.
00:19:28
Eoin _Owen_
So that's what you need to get the mobility back. Then you need to get the stability, like get core activations, balance better. Then you can work on motor control, which will be like running drills. After that though, leave it, your body knows the best way that's efficient for you to run.
00:19:46
Eoin _Owen_
And I'll give another story, right? A guy, when I was growing up, as I said, I was starting in my teens, I was trying to get to Iran for Ireland as an under 18. And the two other guys who I was competing against were first and second in Europe, which is very strange for Ireland. Obviously, in the UK, you'd have a lot of European champions, but we don't get any. And we had gold and silver. The guy in silver, the guy in gold was just really fluid, lovely on his toes. The guy in silver would have been like a heel striker more. So he looked at him, he's like, I'm changing my style to match the guy in gold. So he just consciously ran on his toes. By the time he were 20, the guy in silver never ran again. He had to have double achilles surgery because his body wasn't designed for that. Now what he could do is do your drills.
00:20:36
Eoin _Owen_
do you know A skips, B skips. Do your balance and different exercises and then let your body add it. it it's We've worked this out. We have you know millions of years of evolution. We have you know from the time you're zero basically all the way up to your age now We've worked out, we didn't need a YouTube video to show us on your toes or any of this So I think it it it clicks into the people's need of like, if I feel like I'm missing a ah key thing, this is an easy step to do. Where the answer is good training. Plaid days are something in the week to stay injury free, build the building blocks. And after that, if it doesn't look the same as everyone else, that's what's efficient for you.
00:21:23
ukrunchat
Yeah. So we try we try and over-complicate it basically, don't we?
00:21:28
Eoin _Owen_
Yeah, but we wanted to make this an hour of podcast, so look, we can't be doing that.
00:21:31
ukrunchat
No.
00:21:31
Eoin _Owen_
Can't be doing those one-word answers and we'd be done.
00:21:33
ukrunchat
So you mentioned Pilates.
00:21:35
Eoin _Owen_
No, I'm joking. Yeah, exactly. We over-complicate.
00:21:37
ukrunchat
I love Pilates. Talk to me a bit more about the benefits of it for runners then. What does it do? And what is it? Because I think a lot of people don't really understand Pilates and they'll say, oh, it's similar to yoga.
00:21:47
Eoin _Owen_
They don't, yeah, they...
00:21:50
ukrunchat
and
00:21:50
Eoin _Owen_
Yeah, that's the main one. They think it's it's yoga. it's not If yoga would be main focus on is on mobility and flexibility, the main focus of Pilates would be like core and like strengthening muscles. There is mobility in Pilates just the way there is like stability or core work in yoga, but the main focus of yoga is mobility and flexibility. The main focus of Pilates is core work. What you need it is, especially as you get older, and running is really good for cardiovascular health. It burns calories, it improves your heart and your lung function. What it's not good at is an
Benefits of Pilates for Runners
00:22:30
Eoin _Owen_
is activating muscles. That sounds like what you talk about your running, but think about all the injuries that runners get. Plantar fasciitis, chelus tendonitis, knee pain, hip pain, like hamstring strains and tendinopathies. Think of what they're not getting. Handstring tears, like quad tears. The muscles don't tear. What happens is the ligaments, the joints or the tendons get overloaded because they're having to take all the impact.
00:22:59
Eoin _Owen_
so you need something in your week that is essentially like waking up or activating these muscles and like the analogy i use is like if me and you were in a bar and if someone starts a fight on you i'm if i'm awake and beside you i'm there to help you out if i'm asleep in my bed and you're someone starts out you're on your own and that's what can happen is if we're doing our runs and especially if we have this increase in load you know we're getting ready for a half marathon but not non that distance or marathon if the muscles are essentially inactivated or they're inhibited
00:23:36
Eoin _Owen_
the ligaments and the tendons and the joints have to take all the load. If we have something like Pilates or gym or something that innervates, wakes up the muscles, they will naturally help take the load. you know So that's why we want it once in a week. And again, the other thing about running is it's a very like repetitive, same range of motion, same kind of load. You want something that's moving the joints a little bit better and really activating the muscles.
00:24:02
ukrunchat
Yeah, okay. So talk to me a little bit about heel drops and heel raises because they often get recommended if we've got um kind of Achilles problems and calf issues.
00:24:13
Eoin _Owen_
Yeah. No.
00:24:13
ukrunchat
Are they an exercise that you'd you'd recommend or is there something else that people can do to, you know, improve their muscle?
00:24:21
Eoin _Owen_
Yeah, there's about a million things you could do more.
00:24:23
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:24:24
Eoin _Owen_
So, heal drops and heal raises. Okay. Coming back to what I just mentioned there, I'm about running. You got to, you got to freeze. All these things are serious.
00:24:34
Eoin _Owen_
And also I do, as you said, you can get a free trial, but I, I teach Pilates, so I am going to be biased on this. So do take that with a pinch of salt. You know, if you're, if you're interviewing an interviewing like a butcher and he's telling you all the benefits of meat, you got to, there is a bias.
00:24:48
ukrunchat
and
00:24:49
Eoin _Owen_
Well, so I'll just tell you what I believe. Okay. Why do running injuries occur? I believe the running injuries occur because they cause areas get overloaded that they can't take the load.
00:25:03
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:25:03
Eoin _Owen_
okay So if someone's getting a calf issue basically, what's happening is the calf is getting overloaded, or the achilles is getting overloaded. Because when we're running, a lot of it's the same repetition, just done a lot more. There's not a structure in the week where we're changing, you know, we're not doing sessions, we're just doing the same run, basically, so we're not getting a knee lift. So there's two ways that you can try to train that. The first is you say, okay, I'm gonna make this muscle stronger, but that's gonna, you're working more an area that's already
00:25:39
Eoin _Owen_
overworking. So I have way better success doing an exercise like a single leg deadlift, which is like standing on one leg, slightly bend the knee, it's still going to work the calf isometrically and you bring the other leg back all the way.
00:25:52
Eoin _Owen_
So you're kind of like in a tee at the standing on one leg, holding that for 10 seconds is going to get the like glu the glute and the hamstring working way more.
00:25:54
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:26:03
Eoin _Owen_
It's going to work the foot muscle. Like I have had some people are like all my foots burning, some people are like my hamstring and my glute are burning but what we're trying to do is wake those muscles up and get them to do the work do you know it's like again i'm mad for analogy but it's like if we have two workers and one's like i'm stressed and burnt out and the other guy is like just chilling out it's like the heel drops, heel raises, it's like, okay, well, we gotta to find out how Michelle can um handle the workload.
00:26:31
Eoin _Owen_
And it's like, no, get home to do something. It's like, just chillin'.
00:26:33
ukrunchat
um something
00:26:34
Eoin _Owen_
So once we guess once we get there like the single leg deadlift, I'll do some bridging work there. Once we get that activated first, if we're running, that's all I'll do.
00:26:45
Eoin _Owen_
I won't load that calf more. um then Then, depending on if it's mostly that fixes it, but if it doesn't, then we can start adding in functional exercises like again just more like walking lunges, lifting up through your heel.
00:26:59
Eoin _Owen_
There's a nice one like pushing in against a door and reaching back so we have a few we have a few other kind of exercises that we do that are much more functional but again they are adding in a little bit of that calf and achilles complex but we want to make sure we've done that first phase first and then we can add those in.
00:27:12
ukrunchat
you.
00:27:18
ukrunchat
Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So how often should people be doing these sorts of exercises during the week? Then what would you recommend?
00:27:25
Eoin _Owen_
About once a week is what we try. it wait We do a 45 or a 35 minute class kind of once a week.
00:27:27
ukrunchat
Okay.
00:27:30
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:27:31
Eoin _Owen_
If you had an injury, I'd probably do the Pilates once a week and then I'd maybe do the 10 minute rehab once a week.
00:27:38
ukrunchat
Yeah, okay. i okay i I've got a question for you regarding injury and it is about why do runners not seem to want to do strength training until they've been injured and how can we change that?
00:27:39
Eoin _Owen_
oh sorry oh else i ah
00:27:56
Eoin _Owen_
Do you know what, like I said, like i so we give free trials, right? And my biggest, I have like three admin assistants. Well, I had two and I've literally brought another on. It's just like, try get this person to do it.
00:28:09
Eoin _Owen_
I am not sure. So they get an email, what day will you do the class? We will literally check in with you after.
00:28:13
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:28:15
Eoin _Owen_
It's to the point where it's like, where do you live? I will knock on your door and start moving your arm and leg. And and I would say if we have, 30 trying it every week if i can get six to try the free trial like you've literally said i'll try it it's free um look running is just very easy you just put on your your shoes it's out the door you know you could even just be running and then decide what you want to do it's harder like it's your it's a different habit of doing it inside um there's distractions it's not the type they like but yeah that's my biggest
00:28:32
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:28:53
Eoin _Owen_
like obviously I have
Incorporating Strength Training
00:28:55
Eoin _Owen_
a lot on the class that we do and the other part of my course is like making these people accountable how do we you know we have check-ins on Tuesday I gotta say what day you're doing it on we check in the day you said you do it on Friday we give a shout out so here's everybody did it on Saturday it's like it's random we can do to make you do it you know but that is the hardest thing I don't know why but I do know why it's easier just to get out the door
00:29:18
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:29:19
Eoin _Owen_
You're out, you're in no distractions. The Pilates takes a while. But once you get into the habit, as you said, you know, obviously you're into it, Michelle, and um people do get into it. If they can if they can establish it as part of a routine.
00:29:29
ukrunchat
yeah I think you see the benefits of it, don't you? Because I feel like my posture is much better. Wow, what a difference just from learning about what the core actually is and what it does.
00:29:41
ukrunchat
And I think a lot of people don't really understand what the core is in terms of how they should be holding it.
00:29:41
Eoin _Owen_
yeah.
00:29:47
Eoin _Owen_
Yeah but I think as well it's like having you know it can be difficult if you're like I don't know what to do it's like if you have a video or if you have someone you're going to at least it's like it's just there you do it and once you do it I feel like as you said you see the benefits that are like okay I can cut or run out it's why I think people love doing marathons it's not even just a marathon it's like there's a 12-week plan that's just very easily laid out and people don't should be doing the same thing for like
00:29:48
ukrunchat
and
00:29:55
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:30:15
Eoin _Owen_
or Pilates routine and your normal running so you don't always have to just do a marathon and really stress yourself do the same for a 5k just have it written down as a plan and follow it along and the same like yeah so that would be what i'd say yeah i love i love so i love the single like deadlift
00:30:27
ukrunchat
Yeah, that's that's a good point. Have you got any tips for what runners should incorporate into kind of a, I mean, you mentioned a few exercises there, but into a strength session that may or may not incorporate Pilates or gym work.
00:30:39
ukrunchat
find
00:30:42
Eoin _Owen_
i love that like world's greatest stretch so you kind of hands together can you bring your leg outside your right so your your leg comes out to the side of your right shoulder just to get that hip range of motion back do your core work like your your superman's like opposite arm opposite leg some crawling just to get the core worked then you're going to work on your your glute strength and I like it soft around the shoulders as well. It's like a band exchange just as you said to really help that posture get those ribs moving.
00:31:14
Eoin _Owen_
Look, as I said, there I have a ah free trial of Sport Pilates. We have a 45-minute class in there. We have mobility. Literally, it's free for the week.
00:31:25
Eoin _Owen_
Try that. you know I'd be literally delighted if people just tried it, and you'll see the type of exercises that we recommend.
00:31:28
ukrunchat
yeah.
00:31:30
Eoin _Owen_
And even if you're like, look, I'm never going to pay for it, no problem. At least you'd have an idea. We change it up every week, because there's a lot of stuff to actually do in this it's a little bit more complex than people think but at least you'd have some of the exercises it like look if i did this at least it's better nothing you know by a yeah yeah yeah that's
00:31:48
ukrunchat
Yeah. and And I think that's the point, isn't it? Like just doing something even a little bit is better than not doing anything at all. Yeah. and So you specialize in treating back pain, don't you? Yeah. Talk talk to us a little bit about that, especially like the causes of it for runners in particular.
Back Pain Causes in Runners
00:32:07
Eoin _Owen_
Yeah runners they see a lot of times a lot of times it's like you know we're not professional athletes so it's like we could be just sitting down we're having our sedentary life and that's what's causing as opposed to their their running. Generally you want to kind of break up so I have this other product to call the back of wear belts it gives you basic feedback on your back position so the other if you go to back of wear belt spell it like it sounds back aware just all together bell.com forward slash quiz you can take a one minute free quiz and I'll tell you basically is it like most likely a disc issue a standing of a set joint or an SI joint problem that's a big help because if it's like a disc issue generally it's like
00:32:52
Eoin _Owen_
the disc is coming out and it's hitting on the nerve a little bit so it can be like that spasm that we get in the back or we get sciatica or pins and needles and if that's the issue and it's worse in the morning you know like putting on your shoes or socks can be tough because overnight the discs take on extra fluid so it's like if the bottle if my bottle is completely full if i press slightly on the bottle it's going to shoot out a little bit so um if that's the case you want to do like a little like morning routine so you want to do kind of your cobra exercises power walking is absolutely fantastic for a back and then watching the amount of flexion you're doing like if i'm sitting on a ah chair uh oh you can't see i'll just come to the edge of the chair and drop one knee to the ground like i'm jenniflecting or
00:33:35
Eoin _Owen_
you know kind of in a half kneeling position and then that'll just take pressure off puts the back in a better position stretches out the hip flexors if it's more of a standing issue i can show you this one so i'll stand up lock out my elbows drop my legs and what i'm trying to do is just gap the back a little bit big thing with back is whatever it's whatever's causing your pain just do the opposite of that so if it's a lot of sitting that's causing your pain do your extensions if it's a lot of standing that's having your pain
00:33:53
ukrunchat
Hmm. Yeah.
00:34:05
Eoin _Owen_
sit or round try to come out with that position and then the other thing as we said back pain is very similar with running it's like the passive structures being the discs the ligaments or the joints we need the other the muscular system to absorb the load and doing that correctly brilliant yeah
00:34:21
ukrunchat
Yeah, I find that I think sometimes i've I've started just sleeping on one pillow because I find that and to like two pillows is too much for me now. I wake up with a sore back because I tend to be a front sleeper and that causes me issues sometimes in the morning.
00:34:36
ukrunchat
um So if you've got any tips for what I can do to ease that.
00:34:36
Eoin _Owen_
Yeah, that's ideal. And I think that is really good, Michelle. Well, I think like that, it's like being aware of that.
00:34:43
Eoin _Owen_
So you might want some like then cat camels, because if you're in an like extended position at night, if you're sleeping on your front, you just want some gentle like coming in the other way in the morning.
00:34:43
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:34:48
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:34:52
Eoin _Owen_
And just always keep these things like pain free range of motion.
00:34:52
ukrunchat
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's just important from having spoken to you today. I think it's just important to keep moving, isn't it? And be as flexible as we can, as we can be.
00:35:06
Eoin _Owen_
Yeah, the other thing with the back is like because we're sitting, there's a thing called like the joint by joint approach. So even in our rehabs, and the idea is, I kind of alluded to it earlier, it's that every joint has one primary function, either to be mobile or stable.
00:35:19
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:35:20
Eoin _Owen_
So the ankle, we shouldn't be able to have good range of motion at our ankle coming forward. The knee should only flex and extend. We shouldn't, we don't want it buckling in or going out the other way. or the hip we can move the hip in any direction and then the lower back should be quite stable but what can happen is upper back then that's we get hunched that we can't actually come out with that position so what we need to do is restore the range of motion at the hip and the upper back where we get stiff because we're sitting as you said keep moving there and then activate the muscles around the glutes to keep the knee in a good position and the core to keep the back in a good position because generally you're going to find that you're going to get much more knee pain and hip pain
00:36:00
Eoin _Owen_
until the, or sorry knee pain and back pain because the hip only becomes an issue when it's stiff, when it's just completely worn out. But it's the other is moving too much to give us the kind of shorter term issues.
00:36:12
ukrunchat
Yeah. and And you're right. We do spend a lot of time sitting down, don't we, in today's society. So we might, we might only just.
00:36:18
Eoin _Owen_
Yeah, even like watching TV if you can just lie down instead of sit, it's brilliant.
00:36:22
ukrunchat
Ah, yeah. Yeah. Cause I've heard people talk to me about kind of walking treadmills. I don't know what you think about those. I've got, you know, they'll walk on a looking treadmill while watching.
00:36:29
Eoin _Owen_
yeah i think to've got it like Yeah, my wife is trying to think, I don't know if I'd be able to concentrate on it, but even just if you're just getting a cup of tea in your house, just like power walking, swinging your arms, like one minute, two minutes of that.
00:36:38
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:36:42
Eoin _Owen_
like So for every hour we're sitting, you should be trying to aim to stand for one minute. And then just doing those little micro breaks, like yeah if you're standing every minute or come to the edge of your chair even, it's fine.
00:36:53
Eoin _Owen_
you know
00:36:54
ukrunchat
Yeah, yeah. Now you you mentioned and a little fact to me that kind of piqued my interest when you emailed us and it was that countries without toilets report less back and hip pain.
00:37:06
Eoin _Owen_
yes and that's why yeah it's funny isn't it like and because um because what they're doing is then at least once a week or once in a day you're getting this like daily squat position sort of going they're keeping that range of motion in the hips yeah so they're that's exactly what i'm talking about they're keeping the range of motion they're moving through the hips where if we're stiff through a joint we're we're not that we're not that evolved from like cave men or cave women so
00:37:07
ukrunchat
And that intrigued me. Yeah.
00:37:19
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:37:34
Eoin _Owen_
like will all The key function for us is to be able to move so we that we don't get like we're not praying for someone else so we can go find food or hunt food. So if you if you get stiff through your hips right now your body's like well today I need to be able to move so I'll just start rounding or moving way too much through my lower back.
00:37:53
Eoin _Owen_
where if I can keep that range of motion at my hips, and that's what we're with the back of whereabouts, where a lot of it's when we're doing the exercises, people could be doing the right exercise. Say like a deadlift, I don't stand up for example, is like we're meant to be pushing through the hips, keeping the back.
00:38:06
ukrunchat
yet
00:38:11
Eoin _Owen_
So now we're teaching like that, right way you know the way we're actually meant to move. And then if we move at the end of the back, it's fine, but the hip is taking most of the pressure. However, first stop here, so I try to go back, is this really stiff?
00:38:23
Eoin _Owen_
Yeah, of course, then we're doing that type of action.
00:38:26
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:38:26
Eoin _Owen_
And done we're not like, we're not training the body the way it's kind of designed to be trained.
00:38:31
ukrunchat
No. ah Yeah, it's it's really, really fascinating. I've got a question for you. It's it's quite a selfish question because I have very tight hamstrings.
00:38:38
Eoin _Owen_
Yeah.
00:38:40
Eoin _Owen_
Okay.
00:38:41
ukrunchat
um What would you recommend for just working your hamstrings a bit more and getting more movement in them?
00:38:47
Eoin _Owen_
Okay, so I do, like, if it's a movement issue, there's kind of three three things it can be, right? Well, there's actually four with the hamstrings, because it can be a little bit neural. It can be like the nerve is getting, it just feels tight, and that's where we feel it. So first is like, it could be a myofascial issue. It could be like the muscles are tight, especially around the hamstrings. If people are like, I find this like the pelvis on one side doesn't move, brilliant. So all I'll do is I'll get a massage ball, I bring mine to bed,
00:39:17
Eoin _Owen_
and like in the middle of the piriformis, which is the middle of the bum, I'm gonna just like turn my foot out and just release that muscle.
00:39:20
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:39:23
Eoin _Owen_
Up around the hip, I'm gonna release. And even the front into the stomach there, I'll just release into there. So lie on that, breathing deeply onto the ball. And then the last one I'll do is if you're sitting, I just have the ball, put it in around the belly of the hamstring just to release off.
00:39:37
Eoin _Owen_
So, you know, you can be watching TV doing that. I said, I bring the, excuse me, the ball to bed and I'll do a good bit of that there. Then um the second second thing I would start to do was just look at, is there a difference in, if you bring your boat legs up, is there a difference in flexibility on one side compared to the other? If there's not, it's great because it add in. I like, if I'm trying to increase the length, so I definitely do the mobility around the hips. I'd probably look at strengthening first, then make sure that I'm able to kind of control that kind of pelvic
00:40:16
Eoin _Owen_
range of motion, get that moving, um do some kind of slider work and then single leg deadlifts, even with a slight knee bend.
00:40:24
ukrunchat
yeah
00:40:24
Eoin _Owen_
And if I was looking to improve range of motion, 30 seconds or 40 seconds, not going to cut it. You need to do like, just like legs up against the wall or holes, but you want to go between two and five minutes.
00:40:35
ukrunchat
Oh, that's quite a long time then, yeah.
00:40:36
Eoin _Owen_
It's a long time. Yeah, but it's kind of to get those, what we call a Golgi tendon organs to really kick in. That's kind of how long it takes because, and you'll find after two minutes, things will be like burning. The first bit's all right, and then ilthough after a while, they'll be like, oh my God, this does feel, and you just have to, we need to have a ah program just in the Sports Pilates where it's like meditate stretch. Cause I'm trying to like, you just have to breathe and actually try and nearly force yourself to stay relaxed. And after a while it goes. That's the one thing that I found is really increased range of motion more. But like, if I was going to do one, only one thing, it definitely would be like,
00:41:10
Eoin _Owen_
around the hips with a massage ball to loosen all that or area off, massage ball into the hamstrings. Then I would look at kind of pelvic control, making sure that like we're able to control that so the pelvis isn't kind of locking up or anything.
00:41:27
Eoin _Owen_
And and then then I would look at like strengthening kind of like single leg deadlifts, cause that's gonna lengthen the hamstring in that kind of strengthened position.
00:41:28
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:41:36
Eoin _Owen_
And then finally I would look at if I was doing longer stretches or stretching but as whole in there for a longer time.
00:41:44
ukrunchat
Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's really interesting. and Yeah. a ah Go on.
00:41:46
Eoin _Owen_
ah right Can I give you one more? Lastly, sometimes right, I'd also focus on getting the glutes stronger. There's a thing called synergistic dominance which synergizes the muscle that should help so the hamstring for hip extension or running
00:41:55
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:42:02
Eoin _Owen_
it should be a helper muscle of the glutes.
00:42:04
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:42:04
Eoin _Owen_
So if the glutes aren't that strong, the helper muscle has to like overly work so it can perceive really tight. And then sometimes we can overly focus on strengthening up the hamstring, where the actual thing is like again, strengthen the muscle that should be doing the main part of the work.
00:42:20
Eoin _Owen_
And then that does kind of naturally lets this one relax more because it doesn't have to do as much work as it's doing.
00:42:25
ukrunchat
Right. Okay. Yeah, that's really interesting. Thank you.
00:42:28
Eoin _Owen_
No problem.
00:42:29
ukrunchat
And what, what about how important are plyometrics in training runners?
Skipping as a Beneficial Exercise
00:42:34
Eoin _Owen_
Though, again, as I said, there's there's a really good study showing that skipping was excellent for...
00:42:34
ukrunchat
Do you?
00:42:42
Eoin _Owen_
for this I like this, it's more like, sometimes I can go on apps and threads, we're like getting through a lot of stuff here, it's good, I like this one.
00:42:48
ukrunchat
Yeah, we are. There's loads in this today. ah
00:42:51
Eoin _Owen_
All right, so I wouldn't do a lot of plyometrics, cause... like if the risk to reward isn't that high.
00:42:59
ukrunchat
Right?
00:43:00
Eoin _Owen_
What I would do instead is skipping, get a skipping rope like it would have had or a jumping rope when you're younger. I have that just outside my house. Like that idea of like, we're seeing what Pilates is hard.
00:43:11
Eoin _Owen_
Do not go into your house, you will never come back out to do it, ever.
00:43:14
ukrunchat
and
00:43:15
Eoin _Owen_
I just have, if you have your car unlocked, you can have it in the car. If you, I start locking my car and just taking a smaller key, so I just have to leave a skipping rope outside.
00:43:26
Eoin _Owen_
Look, if someone robs a skipping rope from outside your house, they needed it more than you. like to And so what you'll do is you try to go double leg, or basically you do three by one minute. And what they found was people who did skipping like that, maybe once or twice a week, they had improvements in all the plyometric benefits like arch stiffness, like that's kind of what you're trying to do. Counter movement jump went up, drop jump where they step off and jump was higher. The other group that just did the additional same amount in running, they just ran more. They had no improvements in that.
00:43:57
Eoin _Owen_
and then 3k times improve by 3% in the skipping rope group and they improve by 1.5% in the additional running group. Why I like skipping is it's a self-limiting exercise. Okay, what does that mean? If you can't skip correctly, you can't skip.
00:44:21
Eoin _Owen_
Alright, so if you're jumping like a donkey, you just keep hittin' the rope. So press your timer, try to do 20 double leg, 10 single leg, 10 single leg, then go one, two, one, two for one, and do that 10 times. That would be two, three, three, three, three, six.
00:44:37
Eoin _Owen_
Okay, but once 50 seconds comes to stop, you might be only, when I got the guys to do it initially, and I probably was poorer back ages ago, the amount of skips you're gonna get is really low.
00:44:48
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:44:48
Eoin _Owen_
They were smacking the ground, they looked like a tree rolled, jumping in a puddle.
00:44:51
ukrunchat
Yeah.
00:44:53
Eoin _Owen_
And, you know, I was like, oh my God. So if I was trying to train them, or just letting them off, all you just do is many jumps, do your plyometric jumps, they're gonna get in trouble. but Because you're hitting the rope,
00:45:04
ukrunchat
yeah
00:45:04
Eoin _Owen_
it's like they're not getting after a couple of weeks they come back and they're like oh yeah they're actually looking like they should look jumping it's very hard to find self-limiting exercises but that's one which i love because it's like i didn't even have to teach them anything their body works it out kind of like what we were saying it'll kind of work it out and then As you work it out, you're getting more hops in the same time in a way that's controllable. So yeah, I always have a skipping rope. I do it maybe once a week, ah twice a week sometimes, but once a week, definitely after a run. Come home five minutes earlier from the run, you'll get much more from that skipping time than you would from the actual running.
00:45:41
ukrunchat
Yeah, oh, that's, yeah, that's fantastic advice, actually. You've inspired me to go and dig my skipping rope out. I do have one in the garage somewhere, but like you say, I can't get to it, so I'm never gonna use it, am I?
00:45:46
Eoin _Owen_
Brilliant, yeah. Yeah, just keep it eye outside somewhere easy. like
00:45:53
ukrunchat
Yeah, that's brilliant, a different door. I love that when I get back from a run. Yeah, that's perfect. Wow, we have crammed so much in to this episode, so yeah.
00:46:01
Eoin _Owen_
yeah this is really good yeah i really enjoyed this no i think that's it i think i think we i think we kind of hit a lot of good things as you said yeah
00:46:03
ukrunchat
Is there anything else that we've missed that you'd really like to get across to runners then about kind of just looking after themselves and becoming better runners?
00:46:17
ukrunchat
Yeah, I mean, if any if anybody's out there listening and thinking, I really would love to know more about whatever we've chatted about today, then how can they
Conclusion and Resources
00:46:25
ukrunchat
get in touch with you then? Do you want to kind of let us know your social media and website?
00:46:28
Eoin _Owen_
Yeah, so I have like, so baccawarebells, so b-a-c-k-a-w-a-r-e, b-e-l-t dot com, um and then Everard, my name, e-v-e-r, or for rabbit, a-r-d, palates, p-i-l-a-t-e-s dot com, and then it's everard, physio, and palates on Instagram, or baccawarebells on Instagram. If people have other questions,
00:46:48
Eoin _Owen_
and And um be as specific as possible. um I'd love to do it. We could do another episode. I found that fantastic. So if you want even to even the message UK1 chat, we could say, look, I'm a runner. I have a 5K event in this or have this injury. And I can come back and answer any question, no problem.
00:47:06
ukrunchat
Yeah, that would be fantastic. Thank you so much and it's been really fascinating talking to you. I've certainly learned a lot to today and I'm going to go and get my skipping rope out as soon as I get off this podcast with you. So thank you very much.
00:47:15
Eoin _Owen_
Great, yeah. Thanks, guys.
00:47:18
ukrunchat
We hope that everybody out there listening has enjoyed this episode. Do let us know.
00:47:21
Eoin _Owen_
Oh, and I said there's a free trial. If you want to go to everhourbladdies.com, you can just get a free trial out of sports with Addis.
00:47:24
ukrunchat
No.
00:47:27
ukrunchat
Brilliant. Well, yeah, we'll see you on the next episode.