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Dancing with the Diablo
37 Plays3 years ago
On this episode, Steven and Yasi talk with the artistic and wellness pros behind Diablo Ballet, a professional dance company and ballet school in Walnut Creek, California. As they celebrate the end of their 28th season, we find out how they manage to keep health and wellness a priority, while maintaining artistic excellence. We also delve into the working relationships among the artistic director, principal dancers, and music composer in creating original ballets, while reflecting on staying afloat during a pandemic and handling the pressures of social media.
Our guests are Dr Selina Shah MD, company physician for Diablo Ballet; Lauren Jonas, artistic director and co-founder, Diablo Ballet, Raymond Tilton, company dancer and School Principal and teacher of the Diablo Ballet School, and and Justin Levitt, award-winning music composer for the Ballet.
To learn about Diablo Ballet, go to https://diabloballet.org. Follow their Twitter at @diabloballet.
For more about International Association of Dance Medicine and Science, go to https://iadms.org.
For more about Athletes and the Arts, go to http://athletesandthearts.com
Guest bios:
Selina Shah, MD, FACP, FAMSSM is a board certified sports medicine and internal medicine physician in private practice in Walnut Creek, CA. She is the company physician for several dance companies and dance studios in the San Francisco Bay Area including Diablo Ballet, AXIS Dance Company, Contra Costa Ballet, San Francisco Ballet School, and Tiffany’s Dance Academy. She is a team physician for USA Artistic Swimming, USA Weightlifting, and USA Figure Skating. She also cares for Broadway shows and Cirque du Soleil when they come to the San Francisco Bay Area. She is past Treasurer and Board Member for the IADMS and is now on the board for The Bridge Dance Project and serves on the Executive Committee for the Taskforce on Dancer Health for Dance/USA. She has lectured nationally and internationally on various dance medicine topics, has published papers in medical journals and books, including criteria on determining readiness for pointe and her original research on demographics and dance injuries in modern dance and other injury case reports.
Lauren Jonas trained at the Marin Ballet. She performed with the Milwaukee Ballet, the Oakland Ballet, the Southwest Ballet, and toured the United States with the Moscow Ballet. Since Diablo Ballet's premiere in 1994, Ms. Jonas has recruited dancers from around the world to present the finest in contemporary and classical ballets. A firm believer in the need to stimulate the cultural development of future generations, she co-created the Ballet’s PEEK Outreach Program in 1995. Ms. Jonas’ awards include the 2005 National Philanthropy Day honor, the 2000 Arts and Culture Commission Award of Contra Costa County, and the1998 Contra Costa County Woman of Achievement Award for the Arts. She is the 2014 recipient of the Contra Costa Commission for Women Contributing to the Arts, Hall of Fame award and was an honoree at the State Assembly’s Women’s History Month. In 2016, Ms. Jonas was honored at the Djerassi’s Women’s Residency Program for empowering women as leaders in the field of ballet. She is also the Co-Founder and Director of Diablo Ballet School.
Raymond Tilton received his ballet training at San Elijo Dance Academy and San Francisco Ballet School. In 2010, he danced as an apprentice with the San Francisco Ballet and was promoted to the Company in 2011 dancing in ballets by some of today's most sought-after choreographers. Since joining Diablo Ballet in 2015, Mr. Tilton has performed the lead in numerous ballets including Christopher Wheeldon's Carousal (A Dance) and George Balanchine's Apollo. Mr. Tilton is the School Principal and teacher of Diablo Ballet School.
Justin Levitt was first
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Transcript
Introduction to Athletes in the Arts Podcast
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome to the Athletes in the Arts podcast, hosted by Stephen Karaginas and Yasi Ansari.
00:00:21
Speaker
Hello again everyone and welcome once again to our show. I'm Stephen Karaginas along with my co-host Yasi Ansari. We represent the athletes and the arts initiative. So if you want to learn more about athletes in the arts or find some resources in performing arts medicine, please go to our website at www.athletesandthearts.com. If you like what you hear today, please feel free to leave a review and click subscribe to get our show delivered to you on wherever you get your podcasts.
00:00:47
Speaker
So now today we're going to be talking with
Featuring Dr. Selena Shaw: Dance Medicine Insights
00:00:49
Speaker
Dr. Selena Shaw. She's a dance medicine physician and a representative from the International Association of Dance Medicine and Science, the largest dance medicine organization in the world. Now she's heavily involved in dance medicine nationally.
00:01:02
Speaker
serving on the Dance USA Task Force and the Board of the Bridge Dance Project, just to name a few things. But we want to talk to her today more about her work at home. She practices in Walnut Creek, California, which is home to Diablo Ballet, the only professional dance company in that region. Now, Dr. Shaw works with his company's founder, Lauren Jonas, to help keep this company going, literally. They are a relatively small company with 12 company dancers and three apprentices,
00:01:30
Speaker
But as we say in sports medicine, Diablo Ballet punches above their weight. This award-winning company just finished their 28th season
00:01:39
Speaker
They have a new ballet school, their own music composer, a performing arts outreach program, and a health and wellness program, which Dr. Shaw oversees. So we want to learn more about how this company keeps performing at their highest levels through injuries, the pandemic, and life in general.
Diablo Ballet Collaboration and Health Strategies
00:01:56
Speaker
So joining Dr. Shaw today on our show is Lauren Jonas, Artistic Director and Co-Founder of Diablo Ballet.
00:02:02
Speaker
Raymond Tilton, company dancer and school principal and teacher of the Diablo Ballet School, and Justin Levitt, award-winning music composer for the ballet. Good morning, everyone. We're so excited to have Selena, Lauren, Justin, and Lomond with us this morning. Nice to be here. Thank you for having us. Good morning. Good morning. So Selena, talk to us a little bit about your role with Diablo Ballet as their dance medicine specialist.
00:02:28
Speaker
Yeah, I would say I'm really fortunate to have this opportunity. It's really a true collaboration, and it's been amazing. You know, it starts with the top. Lauren Jonas is an incredible artistic director, and you'll hear it from the dancers that she works with, you know, everyone that she collaborates with. We're in a small community here in Walnut Creek, part of the San Francisco Bay Area, and she's really, really well known among
00:02:56
Speaker
the entire community here. So just a lot of support all around because of that. And so, you know, she has access to me cell phone, email, and we communicate a lot last year, probably almost every day. And, you know, she'll call me with questions or text me or email me and
00:03:19
Speaker
We'll get back to her and I'm not sure who sleeps less because sometimes we're talking at 11 at night. But anyways, just problem solving, whatever issues there are.
00:03:33
Speaker
The way it works is if dancers have issues, she'll contact me first and I'll get them into my clinic to see them and sort of help manage what needs to be done in terms of what other needs they have, whether it's getting additional imaging, physical therapy, you know, recommendations in terms of any limitations that are needed in terms of restrictions, depending on their issue that they're having.
00:03:58
Speaker
in terms of their injury or what it may be at that moment and then just really work with her and you know, they then work on changing their choreography if needed versus, you know, limiting that dancer if needed, having an understudy come in if needed, whatever it is to try to get through that next show.
Success Factors and Modern Techniques in Dance Medicine
00:04:22
Speaker
So Lauren, you started the company about 1993, correct?
00:04:27
Speaker
Correct, yes. So with all the changes in the dance world over the years, what would you give credit for what's helped keep your company going for so long?
00:04:37
Speaker
Oh, it's a lot of things. It's a team effort. That's for sure. But I do have to say to have Dr. Shaw in our back pocket was just been the most the biggest blessing because especially during COVID-19, she guided us so beautifully. I mean, we were the only dance company in the country that did not have a positive case. And then so that was spectacular.
00:05:06
Speaker
spectacular. Just how lucky are we, you know, for that. But also just to have somebody so knowledgeable right there for us to take care of our needs. And I think Ray can maybe speak to this too. But the knowledge that we have even now from 1993,
00:05:34
Speaker
about our bodies, how to take care of our bodies, the knowledge that the physicians have that can guide us to keep the dancers healthy and on stage, it's quite progressed. And it keeps everybody, we just have so much more knowledge about how to take care of our bodies now that it's kept the dancers dancing longer, I would say. So it keeps the company healthy and then it keeps the dancers working and on stage.
00:06:02
Speaker
But Ray, you might be able to speak to that too, just in the last 20 years or so. Well, being 32, I don't think I can speak on the past 20 years. A little too young for that. But yeah, I mean, I've been through a lot of
00:06:21
Speaker
a lot of injuries over the last couple of years. I've had disc injuries. I've had knee injuries that tore my meniscus and various other parts of my body.
00:06:33
Speaker
You know, thank God I've never had to have surgery, but, you know, also witnessing a few of my fellow friends who've had, you know, surgeries over the past, you know, I've heard a lot of them say just like how surgeries have become much more advanced even the last 10 years or so. And my wife has had, she had surgery a couple of years ago on her ankle and she had to get
00:07:00
Speaker
some bones removed from her ankle and get her ligaments sewn back together from all those sprained ankles. And so I think that as a dancer nowadays, I think that there's chances for us to be somewhat normal after our careers are over. Because a lot of times you see a lot of dancers when they're retired. Even if they say they retired in the early 2000s,
00:07:25
Speaker
There's a huge difference between, you know, when they were dancing, opposed to when we're dancing, very, a lot of them, they're hobbling if they had too many surgeries. And, and now I think it's, it's pretty amazing. A lot of people just seem to kind of have normal lives after their dance crew, after their bodies have been through so much. And so obviously we're, we're grateful that, uh, we can be a part of like this era of medicine as, as an athlete. Um, and I'm sure that this is going to get better and better from here. So.
00:07:53
Speaker
And Dr. Shaw, she's so incredibly knowledgeable. She knows exactly what is needed. And even just from two years ago, she knows the new procedures that she can do to prolong a dancer's career and how to keep them healthy and on the stage. So it's pretty phenomenal to have such expertise with us here.
The Role of Collaboration in Dance Healthcare
00:08:25
Speaker
I mean, it's, you know, kudos to them as well. I mean, I think that Lauren does a great job of recruiting really respectful, mature dancers that also understand their bodies and want to work in a collaborative way as well with the entire healthcare team. So that goes a long way as well. So I really, it's amazing to not really feel like I have any pushback and we can all just work together to keep the company going and on stage.
00:08:55
Speaker
Lauren, from the beginning of when the company first started, did you guys always have a physician on board, or how did you and Selena, Dr. Shah, connect? We did. We had a relationship almost immediately with the Center for Sports Medicine in Walnut Creek, and the physician that we were working with was Segwing, and Dr. Shah was moving here to the area
00:09:25
Speaker
from LA I believe or Southern California and he introduced us and said I would like her to take care of your your company and your dancers and that's how the relationship started and Was that how long ago? So Justin with all the work that you do
00:09:50
Speaker
And with all the time you spend at your day job and all the work you do on the side, how do you work with the ballet to create their music?
Creative Processes in Ballet Composition
00:09:57
Speaker
Well, it all kind of starts with Lauren calling me or stopping by to visit and telling me what she has in mind and the project she's thinking about. And I'm really busy with work and family, but things like this and working with Lauren and the ballet is really special to me.
00:10:20
Speaker
I always find time to sort of prioritize where I can focus more on the music, focus on the specific kind of piece or project we're working on. And somehow, you know, we just always get it done.
00:10:42
Speaker
Yeah, I guess that's the easiest way to do it, you know, late hours, early mornings, and just being super passionate and inspired to work with this, like really amazing group of people. So how does it work? I mean, are you writing music and then giving it to Lauren and testing it out? Or is it going? Is there a back and forth give and take with the composing process? How does it work?
00:11:05
Speaker
It's kind of worked both ways, you know, where I've had a piece of music and I've shared new pieces with Lauren and she's got, oh, I love this one. Let's do something with this. Or, you know, last year with Belestra, you know, she came to me and wanted to create a new piece based off of, you know, everyone sheltering in place and the pandemic and just, you know, she brought in Ray to choreograph, which was,
00:11:32
Speaker
a really special part of the process because Ray is a good friend. He's a super good dude and he's a really talented dancer and choreographer. And it was fun working with Ray because Ray also understands music really well and speaks really well about what he's looking for emotionally and
00:11:57
Speaker
Yeah, and it just it was it was a super collaborative process, you know, where Lauren started and said, you know, this is kind of something we want to do. Ray and I got together and Ray gave me his vision.
00:12:09
Speaker
And I just started to sort of noodle around on the piano and came up with some ideas, you know, did some recordings where I could send Ray and Lauren some strings, you know, because we wanted to start the piece with something kind of slower and softer and kind of more sad and hard because that's what we're all feeling. And then
00:12:32
Speaker
Ray did this beautiful choreography in the piece where he had all the dancers cover their mouths like they were wearing a mask and taking it off. And it was us kind of instilling this hope that it's gonna be okay and we're gonna get through this. And it was just really beautiful to wrap our minds around it and to continuously share ideas and share feedback and kind of mold it as it went. And I love it. It's like a really special
00:13:02
Speaker
um, thing to be a part of, you know, I can go on and probably will later about how much I love all these guys, but it really makes it extra special to have these really deep relationships. And I think I've worked with Lauren for like 10 years, you know, we've done lots of different things. So, you know, we, when we get a chance to work together, it's really special and I go all in and yeah, we've always been really, you know, proud and excited and,
00:13:31
Speaker
happy with, you know, the results of what we all get kind of going in together. Now, Justin, do dancers have any input on the music composition? Yeah, I mean, Ray and his wife, you know, are both dancers and they had input. Lauren's a dancer and she shared input.
00:13:54
Speaker
Most of the input I get from the dancers will be afterwards, you know, when they tell me they liked it or how much this one part, you know, kind of touched their heart. And that's always good to hear. But yeah, I mean, with Ray, you know, we didn't want something that just kind of was super emotional and slow and passionate the whole time, you know, and thinking about dance steps, thinking about the movement, you know, watching the ballet, going to their rehearsals.
00:14:24
Speaker
And it really helps to kind of think musically, you know, how I want to have the string section do pizzicato for, you know, eight bars so they can do, you know, something really kind of cool. And yeah, so yeah, the dancers have input and they have a huge influence on how I'm writing because I want it to be something that is danceable, you know, that they can feel, they can move to and yeah.
00:14:54
Speaker
It's rather unique to have a ballet company have their own music composer. I would imagine it's a pretty unique situation to be in for both sides. And I'm very expensive, you know, really. Yeah, but also I just have to say something like Justin who, you know, oftentimes you have composers who
00:15:15
Speaker
You know, when you take two different genres in a way together, the dance and the music, and everyone has their strong ideas and feelings. And they're not always so collaborative. But Justin is just, he just wants so much. He just has so much love to share and to make the project
00:15:43
Speaker
He doesn't have, you know, if Ray were to say, for example, oh, I really would like this section to be this. He is completely amiable in that regard. And so I think the process with Ray, if I may speak, that was pretty easy as far as personalities and meshing and coming together for a common goal.
00:16:11
Speaker
You don't always find that in a composer or an artist, for example, but there are no egos here. And it's a beautiful, the product, it speaks that because of that. Well, yeah, behind closed doors, I'm like, what? What did he say? And I'm like, oh yeah, it's your Ray, no big deal, I got you. No, I mean, yeah, you, yeah. I am curious, so Ray, do you,
Balancing Artistic Vision and Practicality during COVID-19
00:16:41
Speaker
that to Justin and then Justin do you kind of write you know eight bars or whatever it is based on that and then you take the next section is that or are you guys kind of each like you're composing and you're choreographing and then you sort of come together and if it doesn't quite work change it like I am curious sort of Donna that mini gritty how that works
00:17:03
Speaker
Well, you know, I think in the situation that Justin and I were in, I mean, there's been quite a few ballets done in the past where, you know, many ballets composed by Tchaikovsky and he, you know, I mean, most of that score was literally deliberately choreographed and composed for something very particular. And so I would say in Justin and I's situation, I would say,
00:17:32
Speaker
I was not showing him, I didn't go to his office and start dancing for Justin. But what we did was almost create broad strokes, broad ideas of an emotion and the type of movement that I would like to choreograph to.
00:17:56
Speaker
Um, the, the choreographic process is, you know, kind of like, uh, uh, a mysterious thing because it's so different amongst every person is same thing with composing too. I mean, so it's, it's pretty much about the individual. Um, but for myself, I think, um,
00:18:15
Speaker
I'm very much kind of like listen to music first type of person. I don't create movement and then try to find music that goes with that just because I feel like if you're really trying to kind of
00:18:33
Speaker
create this piece that is speaking about a very specific subject like COVID-19, you know, I think the music has to very much relate to that. And so I wouldn't want to like create something that, you know, was not influenced by the music. So I think in Justin Eye's kind of experience together, it was very much
00:18:59
Speaker
You know, I mean, the piece of music that he wrote was very beautiful, but there was different parts of the music that started to speak to different parts of the entire process of COVID. And so I kind of just went with the flow as he was kind of creating the score.
00:19:19
Speaker
But it doesn't always work out that way. I could say that was probably one of many different ways that probably the process ends up happening. But that's how Justin and I did it, and it obviously worked out. Good job, Ray.
00:19:37
Speaker
But I imagine with everybody being involved, I mean, Lauren and Raymond and Justin and the give and take with all the different creative input you have, I'm sure there's like the part of you that is the perfectionist and wants things done certain ways. So how are you able to get from start to finish in a relatively timely manner? Like how long will it take you to compose a piece of music for a ballet?
00:20:01
Speaker
Um, gosh, well, I mean, honestly, I don't really remember how long it took to put the entire thing together. Um, but it was quick. This was a quick one. Yeah, it was a quick one. I mean, I'd say that it's, uh,
00:20:16
Speaker
You know, it's hard to say because I've also been a part of experiences where pieces had to be choreographed in an entire week and finished. And they're usually 20 minute ballets, which that's, you know, that's definitely something that I don't do on a daily basis. So I wouldn't be able to do that because I don't have the expertise to do that. But. But.
00:20:36
Speaker
But, you know, I think that, you know, we were able to put something on relatively fast for the situation. And, you know, also, too, I mean, it was I was very restricted in a sense because
00:20:49
Speaker
you know, we had just come back from, you know, lockdown, and, and, you know, everyone was kind of in an awkward stage, you know, like, do I get near you? Do I even look at you? Do I, you know, I mean, you're like, if I look at you, do I get COVID? You know, like all that stuff.
00:21:08
Speaker
you know everyone was so so paranoid and just kind of you know curious about just kind of like assimilating back into like life and so that was kind of restrictive as a choreographer but then it was you know I think that I found you know some inspiration from that as well but you know I mean I think Justin and I did a pretty good job at you know trying to make it go as smooth and fast as possible
00:21:37
Speaker
I concur. It was beautiful. We'll have to get you this. You can watch it. It's beautiful. So speaking of the COVID situation in regards to the company. So Selena, how did you handle all the mental difficulties and the mental aspects of dealing with COVID with the company? That's always a struggle. I think again, comes back to the fact that we have a great group of dancers in Diablo Ballet that are really mature, experienced seasoned dancers. So
00:22:06
Speaker
part of it is they're just already coming in strong and resilient and able to adapt really well to different situations. So, you know, again, kudos to them for that. And also again, it comes top down. I mean, you know, Lauren sets a stage of, you know, how things are going to go and people listen to her. And I think that's really helpful. And so, you know, for me, I had co-authored, you know, some early on COVID protocols.
00:22:36
Speaker
with as part of our task force and dancers health for dance USA, which are, you know, available on their website and so had done a ton of research and was keeping up with everything that was coming out and, you know, and then trying to adapt what made sense at the time to how that would apply in the studios, you know, everything from how to clean them and all that stuff in terms of return and what did it mean to be a safe return and
00:23:02
Speaker
um, all of that and just all the masking protocols and temperature checks and, um, you know, getting testing and all of that. And, you know, at the end of the day, the goal was to be able to dance together and to perform and stay healthy, to be able to do that. And that was, I think, hugely motivational for the dancers. And I'm sure Ray can speak to that as one of the company dancers from his perspective in terms of how, you know, he felt with that.
00:23:31
Speaker
Yeah, you know, I think that you know, even through the, you know,
00:23:42
Speaker
Prior to coming back to work, I think a lot of people were, at least the general public, I think, just didn't really understand what are the things that we need to do to protect ourselves. And when we came back to work, it was
00:24:07
Speaker
you know, there was still not a lot of, you know, just information about the entire thing. So obviously, you know, you take the most, the most protective precautions that you can. And, you know, I think that it was, it's definitely not a fun thing as a athlete to wear a mask. And, you know, basically, sometimes like restricting how much air you're actually breathing in. And
00:24:37
Speaker
So, you know, it was, it was tough and I think, um, you know, you, but on the flip side, you're like, well, okay, I'm in here.
Personal Challenges and Resilience through Music
00:24:48
Speaker
I've got a mask on, you know, it sucks, but you know, what's the alternative? I guess being home.
00:24:54
Speaker
right? Just being at your own, not doing anything. So, um, you know, I mean, I can't say that every, you know, any of us were kind of like, you know, super gung ho about it, but at least we were excited about, you know, um, dancing and keep going and, you know, making sure that we were, you know, not sitting at home and just kind of, you know, wasting our lives, I guess. So we were pretty thankful that, you know, we were able to come back to work.
00:25:23
Speaker
So we were very thankful for that. I mean, a lot of people lost their jobs and we did it. And that's, that's, uh, you know, that obviously contributes to, you know, all the things that, you know, Dr. Shah did and, and everyone else that, you know, put all the protocols together. So we're, we're very thankful for that. Cause, you know, I know people that, you know, in the dance world, in particularly who quit, they quit dancing altogether because of COVID. And, you know, it's like.
00:25:53
Speaker
Well, you know, it's like we're still in this and we're still doing it, which is pretty crazy knowing the circumstances that everybody was in. So we're very thankful for that. Raymond, as a principal dancer and a choreographer, how did you keep your, I guess, inspiration high during
00:26:13
Speaker
this difficult time. And then how did you also keep yourself dancer fit during this time? Was your training looking? Were you training more on your own and then coming in to the studio? What did it look like? Well, on your last question, I'll answer that one first. So there's this thing they call dad bod. And
00:26:41
Speaker
you know, my wife, she, she got pregnant. She won't I think that she's not here with me because she would correct me. So I just I maybe I shouldn't give it time. But she got pregnant around like the second week of March. And, and, you know, that was, that was just, you know, that was all crazy all mixed in with everything. And so
00:27:05
Speaker
And let me tell you, I ate Cheez-Its, I ate all of the wrong things that you're supposed to eat as an athlete. And of course, I wasn't exercising. So yeah, like I got out of shape. So I'm sorry, but that's the reality.
00:27:20
Speaker
That's totally okay during the time. That's right. It was about me emotionally processing the situation that we were in. So like being inspired and kind of dealing with COVID as like an artist. It was not easy and I have to be honest. I think that even at this point, I think I'm
00:27:43
Speaker
I'm still never really recovered from it. I think that even as an athlete, I look back a couple of years ago, I'm like, wow, I'm not, I feel like physically I'm not what I used to be at that point in time. Jesus aside, but I think that you kind of have to accept the, I think that as a dancer in this time, you kind of have to accept
00:28:13
Speaker
everything that you lost from COVID and accept that most likely you're never going to get that back and you just kind of have to move forward as an artist and just kind of accept the artists that you are now due to that.
00:28:30
Speaker
But I'm a big music lover. I listen to classical music pretty much on a daily basis just because I'm also a ballet teacher and also being a musician and doing all of that. If I'm just sitting there listening to music, I tend to think about a lot of inspiring things in my head as I'm listening to that music.
00:28:54
Speaker
I've never really had an issue with that. But I think just the stale feeling of COVID very much still affects me to this day as a dancer. And definitely I think personally had like a huge effect on the trajectory of
00:29:17
Speaker
of just kind of my outlook in the next couple of years. I mean, I've told my boss, like, since the last five years, oh, I'm stopping dancing. And the next year, I'm like, I'm going to stop dancing. I don't stop dancing. So I've told her that I'm going to retire for the past five years.
00:29:35
Speaker
But I think the nail's been hammered in on this one now. COVID's been tough. But you know what though? That I've got a new life. I have a kid and I'm happy about that. And some things come to an end and that's probably for a good thing. So I am happy about that.
00:29:54
Speaker
So it's safe to say that perhaps the music has been one thing that's helped continue your inspiration for dance. Like that's something that sparks up your motivation and your vision, especially during such a challenging time. But I also want to bring awareness to the fact that as a new dad, you're still doing it. So awesome. And congrats to you. That's really cool and inspiring, I think, for anyone that might be listening.
00:30:21
Speaker
that even though that you are a new parent and even though COVID did happen, that you were still able to show up and show up for the dancers and show up for yourself as a dancer. So I think that's pretty cool and awesome.
00:30:35
Speaker
Something that I think, I know Steve and I would really appreciate, and you being a principal dancer, it would be great if you can answer why dancers are athletes.
The Athleticism of Dance: Comparing to Sports
00:30:45
Speaker
I know it sounds like, duh, Yossi, this makes sense, why a dancer would be an athlete. But this question goes around all the time about is a dancer an athlete? And I would love from a dancer's perspective to share some of your reasons why.
00:31:01
Speaker
It is so taxing on the body and what it takes to be a dancer. Yeah, well, thank you for that question. Someone just asked me, in a different way, they asked me that same question. They asked me, is dance is a sport? And of course, it's not a sport in a lot of ways, but it also is a sport in a lot of other ways. Obviously, dance is an art form, so there's
00:31:28
Speaker
we are you know we have to make sure that we don't make funny faces and that you know like you see a lot of athletes when they're trying to do their work their faces don't look very attractive while they're doing what they're doing so we have to keep our composure and definitely how we look as we dance
00:31:45
Speaker
But, you know, dance has been, you know, the question is that dance has very much evolved since its founding. You know, it's been such a progressive growth and that has a lot to do with the influences that have definitely played a huge part in just kind of what is expected as a dancer.
00:32:09
Speaker
you know I mean if you look at ballet history you can start to see you know in certain areas of like Russian ballet and as far as the things that have influenced their culture over the years you know gymnastics was a very huge had a huge effect on the type of dancing that we're doing and seeing more tricks and there was a point where ballet was not about tricks it was not it wasn't really something that
00:32:36
Speaker
that was a huge, it was more about telling a story. But over time, people started using this word virtuoso, and that means that, okay, if that's what you're gonna use, it's like then the steps have to go along with that description. And so over time, what's been physically expected of us has been increasingly difficult.
00:33:02
Speaker
And in my generation, I think that there was still very much an aspect of our training that was geared towards the emotional artistic expression. And in this next generation, these kids are doing absolutely ridiculous things.
00:33:22
Speaker
And it seems that regardless if you're a female or a male, it seems like it's almost gotten to an area of
00:33:34
Speaker
It's almost every move is egalitarian, right? It seems like women are starting to be required to do things that they were never required to do. And men are kind of in a place where men are even more flexible than they used to be. I mean, sometimes I see guys, I'm like, yo, dude, cut it out. You shouldn't be as flexible as she is. Just cut that out, right?
00:34:01
Speaker
You make it all look bad over here. But, I mean, if you look at also the type of physiques that have been, you know, over the years have been changing and it's, you know, with how, you know, how that's all changed and then with the physical demands, I mean, I just,
00:34:23
Speaker
I'm I have high respect for sports because I played sports and a lot of people will sit there in in their egos and say well dance is harder than any other sport and I was just like Then you just never did a sport. So I'm just you know, I I highly respect people that do sports and I and I love sports But I would I would say that dance is on par with those other sports as far as the physical demands and also just the amount of action
00:34:52
Speaker
hours in training it takes just to be good at what you do. So it is it is a very hard thing. And so I would put it in that same physical category that sports are in as far as what we put on our bodies on a daily basis. Now, Lauren, you just started the ballet school, correct? Yes.
00:35:11
Speaker
So you have dancers coming up through your program and you have your company dancers. How do you manage the artistic urges to push choreography forward and challenge yourself in pushing things forward in that realm while still maintaining health and safety for your dancers, making sure that you don't push them past their limits? How do you balance that? Well, we actually manages the school and sets the curriculum and
00:35:40
Speaker
It's the overall vision. And of course, we collaborate on that. So he might be able to speak to the students and the demands of what his vision is there. And it's a beautiful thing to have him doing this. But Diablo Belly has always been a small company in size. We're not large.
00:36:07
Speaker
by any means. And so that means that you have to really take care of your dancers even more because there's so much responsibility on this ensemble versus a larger company that has 60 plus dancers and there's five casts of understudies and that kind of thing. Maybe we'll have one cast of understudies if somebody gets hurt and
00:36:36
Speaker
So it's always a dance in my head of pushing so that the dancers are in shape, but yet knowing when to pull back so that they save their bodies. Because dance is extremely hard on your body. And so
00:36:55
Speaker
You can't, we work about five and a half hours plus a day. And so how do you get the dancers so that they're growing and improving and getting and strengthening and then pushing themselves to a point that's comfortable and knowing when they need to back off a little bit so that their bodies don't fall apart.
00:37:25
Speaker
It's, you know, it's, when you have a smaller company, there's, it's a lot, you have to be a lot more calculated as to how you push, push somebody. And oftentimes a dancer will say, I can, I want to do this again, I want to do it. And so for me, I have to, with my experience of doing this for so many years, is that really the best thing to do at this point? Or is it better to just let that person
00:37:55
Speaker
sit down for a minute and just kind of decompress so that they are ready to come back the next day for the same amount of rigors. With a larger company, you have more flexibility in that regard. And I also do want to say that
00:38:15
Speaker
Diablo Ballet has always been an organization that the dancers have been very experienced and mature, as Dr. Shaw said. And so there is a degree of
00:38:26
Speaker
them having, they're knowing their bodies, which is fantastic. With the school now, we have some younger dancers who are trainees who are learning how to be in a ballet company, and they are in the room with these seasoned dancers. So it's also, Ray definitely has his eye on them so that we are, they have a little bit more, they can push themselves a little bit more because they are just learning, but how are they learning and are we
00:38:55
Speaker
setting the stage for them to learn in the proper way. As far as the school goes where you might be able to touch on that as far as the rigors and
00:39:05
Speaker
Yeah, I'll touch on that and then I'll segue that right into Dr. Shah because she sees most of these kids on a daily basis.
Criteria and Support for Ballet Training
00:39:13
Speaker
You know, imagining a school when it comes to like just the physical nature of dance, I mean, there's a lot of factors that both teacher and physician have to consider when dealing with these kids just because one, there's
00:39:28
Speaker
you know every kid is so different in their physical makeup and you know ballet being such a very difficult and very kind of let's say almost kind of like a very gosh I mean it's like compared to other sort of you know physical activities it just seems to really kind of it can do a lot of physical harm to you if not done correctly and so
00:39:56
Speaker
you know, we at this school, you know, at the DLIS school, we obviously take very much care of our kids as far as really factoring in their, what they're physically capable of doing. You know, however, I mean, even with that, you know, we
00:40:14
Speaker
Our goal is to maintain the high standard of what it takes to be a ballet dancer, regardless of what you can physically do. And we try to cater to what the kids can do, but also with the school that's attached to a company and the kids also participating in company shows, there has to be a certain standard.
00:40:35
Speaker
in order to really make sure that they meet the standards of what it is to dance with the company and to keep that standard up. But, you know, we, you know, point work is one of the, is like the pinnacle of a female dancer. And the unfortunate part is that there are a lot of kids that either don't get to go on point when they want to, or they may never go on to point. And that's a very tough thing to battle in school because every little girl looks at pointe shoes and they're like,
00:41:05
Speaker
that's what i want to do and you know and i'll hand this off to talk on a second but you know you know the it takes it takes some.
00:41:19
Speaker
It could, you know, they say it takes up to like nine to like eight or nine years around that just to be in a place physically that you can be pushed. Like in being in a company atmosphere, like you need to be literally at the top of your game physically in order to kind of
00:41:37
Speaker
take that just brute work on a daily basis. And the thing is, is that kids grow up so differently sometimes and that processes can just be all over the place. Some kids, they don't grow fast enough. And then all of a sudden they hit 15 years old and they have a big growth spurt. And then they have all the, so there's just so many things to factor in. And then obviously Dr. Shaw, she gets to see these kids on a daily basis. And so she can tell you more about what she sees and what she deals with from her side, from her perspective.
00:42:07
Speaker
Yeah, it's so much that we can talk about. But I think the biggest thing is keeping in mind ballet, like any sport really, is lifelong learning and practice and work. No one's ever perfect at it. In the moment you think you are, you shouldn't be doing it. And I think that, like Ray said, with the school, there's such variability, not only in the physical capabilities, but the physique.
00:42:37
Speaker
even the nutritional makeup of these kids in terms of what they're consuming and consuming the right things to keep them going. Ability and where their mindset is too. Some kids are in it just to have something to do and they love dancing and it's just for fun. Some are in it hoping to become professional in the prima ballerina. That's true for any sport. This is not just ballet. This is true for any endeavor anyone's going to take up.
00:43:04
Speaker
And also parent involvement. I will tell you that from my experience in seeing the kids in my clinic from all schools, not just Diablo Ballet, there's such a difference in terms of the parental pressure that I see. There are some parents that really understand, I would say, and are reasonable about how much they want to support their kid and not over push and understand the importance of the
00:43:34
Speaker
school life dance balance, right, in terms of making sure that kids are sleeping and they're eating and, you know, they're getting to class and potentially even doing some extra conditioning. You know, that's one thing with dance, you know, there is going to, for example, ballet class, but, you know, some kids are, for example, more flexible than others. And so some kids need to work on some of that flexibility outside of class. Some kids are hypermobile and don't have enough strength. And so they need to work on the strength aspect and
00:44:02
Speaker
You can't get it all in just a ballet class. You've got to do some extra and have that time. And some parents get that and are supportive of that, and some don't. And it's hard as a kid to understand that. As it is, I think it's very hard for kids to understand the importance of ballet bar. And you have teachers explaining the importance of working through the foot and working within your turnout and not cheating turnout. And that's something that this school promotes, which is great.
00:44:32
Speaker
man how many of us in dance you know I know personally as a dancer I just go through it like I just it didn't register you know until later like oh that was why we were supposed to do all that and I'm now trying to fix all those problems but you know so some of it's to like a kid really understanding what the teachers saying and getting it and again that parent involvement like you know is key there so you know I will say
00:45:00
Speaker
It's all, again, all about collaboration and communication among everybody. I will say Ray is an amazing teacher. He did, I got a chance to take Zoom classes with him during shutdown. And his breadth of knowledge of understanding of ballet history is incredible. You've got a little bit of a sense of that between some of what he said and then also just
00:45:22
Speaker
also understanding kind of what we know about anatomy and I think every dancer that's a mature dancer understands their body so well that they become really good teachers because they can apply a lot of what they've learned throughout their careers and not only injuries they've had but also corrections they've had to make for their own body and they can translate that to kids and it's like again at some point
00:45:45
Speaker
you know, when it clicks in for a kid, who knows? That's going to vary, I think, on their maturity in terms of understanding that and really being able to take that and apply that. But, you know, the nice thing is, is that also the school is really willing to work with me on the restrictions I'll give dancers. A lot of times I'll talk, I've talked to Ray about several dancers too, saying, hey, here's what I'm seeing. Let's limit this or that. And maybe even work on some privates to work on certain technique aspects that need to be worked on.
00:46:14
Speaker
You know, usually dancers are going to we all look symmetrical, but we're going to have left and right differences. So there's a lot of that that we talk about, too, in terms of improving, you know, working on the core and that kind of thing. And then in terms of going on point, we've talked about
00:46:31
Speaker
instituting sort of my point evaluation that I criteria that I've written about in 2008 and published and recently did an update on that criteria. And we're actually about to launch a validation study on that research or on that criteria. So Diablo Valley is going to be participating in that with their dancers so we can actually validate our point criteria. And so the nice thing is they're really open to
00:46:58
Speaker
not only wanting to help their dancers, but help the entire dance community in advancement of medical knowledge too, as it applies to dancers.
00:47:07
Speaker
Dr. Shaw, could you give us a couple examples of what readiness for point might look like, or just general dance progression through the lifespan? Yeah. At least in the early, like, is it more age specific? Or what kind of criteria are you looking for? Yeah. So you know, what's really interesting when you look at what's out there in terms of what's published on actual research on readiness or point, there isn't a lot.
00:47:32
Speaker
You know, we have yet to decide, does age really matter? I mean, the general rule of thumb is that people end up going on point around age 11 or 12, mostly because by then they've had enough years of training. And it really is more about not only the years of training, but the quantity of training in those years and especially the quality.
00:47:53
Speaker
Um, that is really, really variable. And you know, you'll see that difference. I mean, I'm sure in Diablo ballet, they've seen dancers come from other studios and there's such a vast difference between a dancer at studio A that has been dancing since age four versus a dancer at studio B who maybe started age seven. But maybe that dancer was at this, you know, high level, um, training and actually has sort of,
00:48:20
Speaker
better technique and strength and whatnot. And then there's also the inherent qualities of that person that comes into that. So that's part of it. So it really is about quality, quantity, and then the inherent ability and maturity is a big part of it. I get a question a lot about growth plates. You know, is there a factor? So I did publish a case report a couple of years ago. I did see a premature growth plate closure in a dancer's second metatarsal.
00:48:49
Speaker
inconsequential in terms of what it's going to do for her. She just has a slightly shortened looking second toe and never had any pain, never actually had been injured. It was just similar to what can happen in gymnasts where they can get some early growth plate croziers in their radius, for example, with all the weight bearing that they do on their hands and end up with a longer ulna. So sort of a similar situation, but I, you know, we don't know how common that is. I mean, it's the first one I had seen,
00:49:17
Speaker
and how many others have seen something like that or don't even know they have it and don't go see a doctor for that. But I don't think overall growth plates are really a major factor in terms of whether they're closed or not. And we have to keep in mind, from a medical perspective, different growth plates throughout our body open at close at different times. And in fact, in the feet can close as late as age 23. So if you were to wait on complete growth plate closure to put a dancer on point, they'd miss their entire professional career, right?
00:49:47
Speaker
or at least the very important early years of it. So, you know, that tends to not be a factor either. So there really is all about a lot of it's there. Again, quality of training and understanding of their body maturity in terms of being able to take corrections and apply those corrections. And I actually assess all of that as part of my one hour screening that I do, you know, I can pick that up because as I see issues, I'll make corrections there and I'll see how they're applying those corrections as I continue to evaluate them.
00:50:17
Speaker
Um, parent involvement is huge again. Um, I think a parent has to be committed and understand, you know, what they're doing. Um, and you know, and then it's also about the core strength and ability to hold their positions and balance and that type of thing. And at the end of the day, the flexibility of the foot's important. If you can't get enough point or planar flexion in the foot, you're not going to be able to get up on that point shoe.
00:50:44
Speaker
And if you can't get up on that point shoe, that is a very dangerous position to be in. It's very easy to roll out of it. Now, do you think it's okay for directors alone to be deciding dance progression or do you encourage the collaboration between a physician and a dance director and encouraging parents to perhaps meet with a physician specializing in dance? Well, I think quality studios know when their dancers are ready. That's what's been done for
00:51:14
Speaker
you know, centuries at this point, right, kind of thing. But I think there is an issue where there can be some questions from some places and especially I think parents often have questions and I think that's where it's really helpful to have the opportunity to have, you know, the medical evaluation. It's more objective, you know, and I think it sort of takes the studio
00:51:39
Speaker
out of it which you know in some ways can be helpful I think in certain situations and I think a lot of times parents don't know and they have questions so it's a nice time to be able to educate the parent and also look at the dancer just completely objectively with no bias whatsoever um in it like I said and then collaborate with the studio hey here's what I'm finding these are some of the issues and a lot of times it's just helpful for everyone it just ends up making the dancer stronger sometimes they benefit from some additional
00:52:06
Speaker
work with Pilates or some private lessons with the ballet teachers. And I think it's just overall, again, best to be collaborative. And a lot of dance studios, some of them actually have been requiring their dancers see me before they go on point, just to have that second set of eyes looking at them.
00:52:28
Speaker
to have that objectivity and sometimes easier for me to say, hey, you're not ready than them. You know, they like to rely on me a little bit for that as well. And I've never had anyone be upset by that. I mean, a dancer may feel disheartened in the moment, but I always spin it in a very encouraging way, like, hey, you will be miserable if you go on point right now and give it this amount of time to work on this. Let's recheck. And most of the time they work hard and they get better if they're motivated. And that's another sign of maturity.
00:52:58
Speaker
If a dancer is willing to work hard and put the time in and get there, that's going to be much better for them and safer. Yeah. Yeah. Just to speak a little bit on that, Dr. Shaw, I mean, also to just kind of give the listeners a little bit of history actually about kind of, um,
00:53:17
Speaker
of just kind of dance in general with children in a lot of places where, you know, like say, in particular in Russia at the Bolshoi, they used to do these screenings. So basically, in order to be admitted into the school,
00:53:32
Speaker
uh they would go through a very rigorous screening with the kids they would test every aspect of their facility and you know it obviously it's something that we don't do here in the united states however they understood the severity of how difficult it is to do dance and so as much as at that particular time it was heartbreaking for. The younger girl to be like hi and the boy like i'm just not gonna be a dancer however.
00:54:00
Speaker
because of how crazy it can be on the body, it's for their own good sometimes to say no in certain aspects of dancing. In America, we very much promote just dancing as kind of like an enjoyment sort of thing, whereas for them, in other parts of the world, it's a very serious ordeal. And so
00:54:24
Speaker
So what happens in America is that because it's the aspect of the enjoyment of dance, which is definitely a necessary thing. However, that seems to be king over the other aspects, which is like ballet is also very damaging to kids who are growing. And if things are not done correctly, you could severely hurt yourself down the road.
00:54:49
Speaker
You know, we don't it's at this point, it's highly impossible for us to implement such such a system that has been done historically, just because that's not how the United States kind of operates as a whole.
00:55:06
Speaker
But what we can do is you know is. I start to say it really comes down to not the education of the student which is important but it's actually more about the education of the parent and. You know a lot of people don't know this but in a lot of pedagogy schools where they teach teachers anatomy is like probably one of the first classes that you ever learn. And as a teacher you know as a dancer you know i.
00:55:33
Speaker
I don't know as much as Dr. Shah, of course, because she's a doctor and she's gone to school for that. However, I know enough to kind of see things and kind of go, okay, that's not right. I don't always have to go to Dr. Shah to just understand what a kid is capable of physically doing.
00:55:53
Speaker
But on the flip side of that, because we don't screen kids like they do in other parts of the world, there's been a lot of dancers who probably in certain places of the world have been like, no, you're never going to be a dancer. But we found a way to make it work for them, and they end up being beautiful dancers. So there definitely is a balance between it.
00:56:17
Speaker
but you know there is a very comes a point where you can't have someone compensate so much because then. The technique is gone the lines are gone the aesthetics are gone so there is a cut off point to in which you like i'm sorry that you really can't really keep making compensation for the lack of.
00:56:37
Speaker
physical ability that you have in order to kind of maintain the aesthetic that ballet is and that's the heartbreaking point is that well ballet is an art form so it has to be physically beautiful.
00:56:49
Speaker
But there's been people who didn't have the most amazing facilities but made it work and ended up being beautiful dancers. So there is a balance to it, but it's there. So we have to be very precautious about how we progress with kids and how we encourage them to do certain things because they have to live past 20.
00:57:13
Speaker
So they got to keep living. So I don't want you to feel like you can't walk when you're in your 30s, which I feel it. So speaking of things that harm kids, there's been a lot of speculation about the role of social media in causing problems in the dance world, as well as being a boon to developing dance.
Impact of Social Media on Dancers
00:57:37
Speaker
Like, for instance, we had the Facebook papers released that show they have research just showing how harmful Instagram can be, how Instagram focuses your eyes on bodies versus Facebook focusing on the faces. All this information and research is out there now. So I just wanted to get everyone's opinion about what you think is the positive and negative effects of social media in the dance and music worlds. I know, Justin, let's start with you. What do you think?
00:58:07
Speaker
I mean, in the last couple years, social media has been, I think, hugely important for people to get their music heard, you know, because there were no live performances for the most part. I mean, I have two older kids, so I've seen them go through all sorts of rough times where they don't think their image meets a certain, like, specific of their bodies.
00:58:36
Speaker
and had to kind of coach them through that to be loving who they are and respecting what they have. But yeah, I mean, social media is insane, right? It connects us in this really beautiful way and then it destroys so many people in this really awful way. But as far as music's concerned, it's been cool because it has kept us connected.
00:59:04
Speaker
as a musician, you know, you want to connect with people. And when you're performing, it's really about just having people be there and, you know, helping them with the music or connecting with them. And like I said, if
00:59:20
Speaker
If you're not able to do that, then social media was really helpful for me at least to stay connected and kind of remain inspired to continue playing and writing. That's my take on it. What do you think Lauren? I feel like
00:59:46
Speaker
Social media, definitely the students are definitely looking at social media, especially Instagram. And we do have a strong presence for the ballet school, but our content will be different for the ballet school versus for the company pages, for example, because we're very conscious of what's being put out there and what young students are looking towards or looking at
01:00:16
Speaker
as examples. And Diablo Ballet feels very responsible for who's looking at our content and what message is most appropriate. Because we really feel in this community, being the only professional ballet company in this area, that we have a responsibility to be professionals to these students.
01:00:44
Speaker
And then as far as the social media aspect for the company, how can we most represent ourselves in a way that speaks to our integrity, who we are as an organization and what messaging is important to get out there. But social media has also been quite a blessing for us just as far as performances, for example, since COVID.
01:01:14
Speaker
People aren't necessarily looking at newspapers to decide where they're going to go for their art entertainment. And we really rely on social media to get the message out there. As far as selling tickets or events or even the ballet school, our pages were geared towards showing the best of our school and how we can communicate that message to the public.
01:01:40
Speaker
So have you seen negative effects of social media with your dancers in your ballet school as they mature and they develop through your program? Are you seeing any negative trends that are being reinforced by social media? We haven't seen that so much. I know I've spoken to other directors and that's been a problem. But again, we're very, very careful of what we put out there. And I don't...
01:02:06
Speaker
And when we are in the studio, the damn students know they have to put their phones away, and there's none of that going on inside. So we are in our own, they are focused in that regard. I don't know, Ray, if you've seen that so much with the students, but I have not seen a negative aspect of that in our general population, perhaps outside of Diablo Ballet, but not within the organization.
01:02:35
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, you know, I think there's there's pros and cons to social media. I mean, I could speak on a con of it. I mean, not that I'm, you know, a young girl, but, you know, the thing is, is because they're so exposed to social media, I mean, a girl can be extremely hard on herself when it comes to like body image and, you know, and what they're going to see a lot of times that they're going to see
01:03:06
Speaker
away. As a school, that's something that we deal with on a daily basis. Self-image is a very tough thing for a lot of people. I think social media is one of those things where
01:03:25
Speaker
you know, painting a broad spectrum of it. You know, a lot of times people view certain people on Instagram and like, wow, like their life looks so perfect and all of this and all of that. And I think kids through the lens of ballet are, you know, it's kind of like you, you look at someone else and I, you know, going through injuries myself, I did something very similar.
01:03:47
Speaker
regardless of social media it was like you know you would look at someone else like oh my gosh they probably look like they never have pain they never have physical problems
01:03:57
Speaker
And most of the time you're wrong. And and I think that they would they kind of start to kind of what gets ingrained in their minds is that it seems like everyone else has no problems and you've got problems. And I think that's I think that's a huge problem. And then the second thing is that I've had students where
01:04:20
Speaker
you know granted he got into ballet because he saw ballet on YouTube like he saw ballet on YouTube but that's what really sparked him into his career however there was a lot of baggage that came with that that's not the right way of dancing that's not like that's not a really good way to
01:04:38
Speaker
That's not a role model that you should follow as far as what it means to be a good dancer So there was there was pros and cons with how he came to dance But I'm also not gonna go there and say oh that's a like he came to dance in the first place And I think as an art form
01:04:54
Speaker
The exposure is fantastic. I think it's how you educate your kids on it. So they understand when they see something, they can kind of either admire it for what it is or kind of go, this is not really a good thing to model myself.
01:05:14
Speaker
And so education is always like key to everything so that these kids, because you're not, social media is not going away. It's just not. And so it's how you deal with it and how you manage it for yourself personally. And then also as a school, because, you know, kids are like, Oh my gosh, did you see that tick tock dance? I'm like,
01:05:35
Speaker
My gosh, just like cut it out. I don't want to hear tick-tock again but that's unfortunately kids want to be cool and Tick-tock is really cool, and I want to do a really cool dance. I want to do a really cool thing and You know they might copy something and hurt themselves right and
01:05:59
Speaker
You know, I mean, thank God as I was a kid growing up in the nineties, you know, so, uh, but yeah, that's, that's what I've seen. So Dr. Shaw, how has it affected your practice? If anything, have you seen a lot? I mean, I feel like we can go on on for hours about this topic and hopefully another podcast episode about this too, about maybe like,
01:06:25
Speaker
what the ideal dancer body looks like or the effects of social media on the dance community. But anything specific, any key things that you've noticed about dancers coming into your office for and then you providing maybe some kind of encouragement or some kind of tip when it comes to body resilience, body image resilience, is there anything that you've
01:06:48
Speaker
seen recently that you would want to share? Yeah, I don't know that it's necessarily social media related. I would say, you know, if we kind of think back, I think there's always been this pressure. It's just social media has heightened it. So if you think back to like the 80s, the supermodels were huge, right in the 80s and 90s. And that was sort of your ideal aesthetic. And there was already sort of there's always been that pressure.
01:07:15
Speaker
um, in terms of, you know, looking beautiful and glamorous and having that perfect body. But as Ray kind of alluded to, you know, you look at those people and you think, Oh, they must just have this amazing, perfect life. But when it comes down to it, they don't, nobody does. And I think that's kind of more the message to give is that, you know, they may look amazing on the outside, right? Um, but, you know, educating all these kids that, you know, everyone has problems. Nobody has a perfect life. And,
01:07:45
Speaker
some people's problems are so much worse than others. It's just sort of how you portray yourself on the outside in that moment. And maybe it's that moment the picture was taken that they put on that smile and they look great, but then they're miserable 99% of the time you have no idea, right? So I think that's more the message to give. So I think it's the pressure has always been there, whether it's TV, you know, celebrities or movie celebrities and, um,
01:08:09
Speaker
You know, so through the TV, we've had that pressure for a long time. It's just social media is so much more rampant. I will say in my own clinic, um, it's interesting not how much the cell phone is annoying that I have parents who are sitting there typing as I'm talking to them or in, or their kids, you know, you know, to like on the phone. And I have some parents who are awesome saying, put your phone down.
01:08:34
Speaker
and look at Dr. Shaw in the eye and speak to her and don't say, aha, because she doesn't know what you mean. And then I have other parents who are also on the phone and I, you know, like, are you hearing what I'm saying? I mean, I hope you are because I don't have time to repeat this, you know, 10 more times. I mean, you know, kind of thing. So I think from my perspective, it's more just a matter of you can put your phone down and be in the moment. And I think that needs to sort of change, you know, and I'm glad that
01:09:04
Speaker
at least in the dance studio. I mean, it'd be crazy to have someone on their phone at the bar. So it doesn't happen there, but you know, I think it should be put away at restaurants. I think it needs to be put away at your doctor's office. I think, you know, you don't need to have your phone on you 24 seven, right? So that's more what I would say about that.
Closing and Call to Action
01:09:24
Speaker
Great.
01:09:25
Speaker
Well, I feel like we could go on and on and on, right, Steve? Very, very true. Absolutely. Again, I want to thank you for the bomb of our hearts, Ray, Justin, Dr. Shaw, Lauren. Thank you for spending time with us today and sharing with us your relationship and the work you've done at Diablo Ballet. We really appreciate your time. Thanks for having us. Great seeing everybody. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thank you so much for having us. Thanks so much. Thank you.
01:09:52
Speaker
And that'll do it for this episode. Remember, if you'd like what you hear, please leave a review and click subscribe so you can get our episodes sent to you every month. Priyasi Ansari, this is Stephen Karaginas and this has been the athletes in the arts podcast.