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92. AND/OR
13 Plays14 days ago
Go punch a Stormtrooper today!
CW: Major spoilers for both seasons of the show Andor, and the movie Rogue One. :)
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Hosts: Christina Bell & Molly Wilde
Music: The Confrontation, by Jonathan Boyle, licensed from Premium Beats by Shutterstock
Editing: Molly Wilde
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Transcript
Jim's Humorous Return as Substitute
00:00:22
Speaker
Is it recording? Yeah, it is. Yeah. Guess who's back? Back again.
00:00:34
Speaker
Who?
00:00:37
Speaker
It's Jim. Hello. Yes, I'm back again. Tell a friend. Because am the default.
00:00:48
Speaker
Default fill-in boy. Yes. He's the ah substitute podcaster. He's here and he's not queer.
Rent Reduction or 'Red Reduction'?
00:01:00
Speaker
i should get a rent reduction for every time I do this. ah what? A reduction in rent. Oh. I didn't know this was part of the deal. It wasn't.
00:01:11
Speaker
Exactly. Oh my god.
Podcast Setup and Technical Challenges
00:01:16
Speaker
I thought you said red reduction and I was just like is that like a like a like a treat like what it's like a sauce a reduction sauce that's red yeah a red sauce reduction yes every time i talk on this but you like it you have fun yes that wasn't a question
00:01:43
Speaker
no
Freedom in Podcast Topics
00:01:44
Speaker
it's fun people like you thanks people i like you too And we have this new mic setup that is hopefully okay sounding.
00:01:57
Speaker
um I'm trying to project more than I normally would. Yeah. it's ah We've always just recorded on the single mic, but now we're seated in different places. Just because I have a new desk position in the corner of the living room.
00:02:14
Speaker
So that's, ah yeah. That's why. Yeah, that's not going to make a... know. difference because it's clamped to that oh yeah and we also have the air conditioning blowing in the background which i can't tell how much it's picking up in recording so hopefully it's not insane but we'll see white noise white noise it's uh wet hot american summer as they say white noise could be the name of this podcast Whoa. Oh, careful, buddy. It's not wrong. Careful. So far, it could be.
00:02:53
Speaker
Do you mean this episode or my whole podcast? I'm talking about your skin color. Okay. not not But that's funny, too.
00:03:05
Speaker
Yeah, I fully thought you were making a commentary on ah the disinteresting subject matter of... Well, considering I asked what the topic of was today and you were like, oh, we'll figure it out. Maybe. Maybe maybe that too. we Christina and I
Introduction to the Star Wars Universe
00:03:24
Speaker
have done this a few times. We always, you know, whatever we come up with is what we come up with. And like, ultimately, it's our podcast and we can do what we want.
00:03:33
Speaker
Yeah. So if we want to talk about fucking nothing and everything. Excuse me. As you choke on your fucking vape. Yeah. then that's our prerogative, you know?
00:03:47
Speaker
Yeah. We're not here to be incredibly diverting 100% the time, especially ah lately where we've been struggling, Christina and I both.
00:04:04
Speaker
Which is something that we talked about last episode, which you haven't listened to, Jim. How do you know? Because I know you. Yeah. But that's okay.
00:04:16
Speaker
That's alright. You listen to podcasts about superheroes and politics and stuff, so... And I'm pretty sure I heard all about it off the air. Oh, yeah. yeah No, you you get all the behind the scenes.
00:04:32
Speaker
As they say. Yep. who yep yeah But... i mean there is something we have watched recently which was extremely interesting to both of us yes yes and um or um and or and or i didn't actually know where i was going with that sentence so that actually worked out oh yeah it worked out indeed um
00:05:14
Speaker
when When did the first season come out? remind me I think 2022. Okay, and then the second season was... Season 2 2 came out, I believe, like a year ago.
00:05:25
Speaker
A year ago, okay. Like last summer it finished or something. Right,
Spoiler Warning for Star Wars Fans
00:05:28
Speaker
okay. Last summer, early early last fall. um Yes. We should say, just in case, spoiler warning. Oh yeah, spoiler alerts. Spoiler alerts for...
00:05:43
Speaker
and or season one and two and possibly rogue one probably rogue one a star wars story yeah and also spoilers probably in general for star wars in general yeah um which at this point
00:05:59
Speaker
there's not really an excuse to have not seen it Rogue One came out in like 2016. That, but also like everything that happens after. Right. Is very old. And so hopefully you have seen it.
Rogue One's Narrative and the Death Star Flaw
00:06:12
Speaker
If not, you should, because it's a good story and culturally impactful story.
00:06:18
Speaker
And this episode will make more sense. But so much like Andor, we're going to make the episode interesting Even if you haven't seen Andor, just like Andor can be interesting in case you haven't seen the rest of Star Wars.
00:06:35
Speaker
And if you've been holding off on watching Andor and you're deciding to sit down and listen to this episode, this is your warning. go watch Andor first. It is on Disney+. plus Yeah, it's fully your prerogative to get that done. And you have been amply forewarned.
00:06:56
Speaker
So, um, yes. Okay. Now, as you have said, listened to a lot of podcasts about superheroes and TV shows and politics. Well, yeah, but politics, yes. Politics will come in later, I think in this. Yeah. But the first thing that they do when they talk about an episode or a movie or something is give a quick summary of the plot.
00:07:17
Speaker
So that's what we should do now. So we know what we're talking about. When you say they, are you referring to a particular podcast or are you referring to podcasts in general? do you talk about shows and movies i'm just yeah i'm talking about like the format that they usually follow they always almost always give like a brief general synopsis before they dive into specifics and themes and cool things like that so would you like to provide the synopsis for us okay i'll try um so okay so star wars
00:07:51
Speaker
The first Star Wars we have to start at, 1977, A New Hope, famously culminates in the explosion of the um evil empire's Death Star, the
Cassian Andor's Role Leading to Episode IV
00:08:02
Speaker
giant planet-destroying uh like super weapon space station and how they were able to do that was because the ragtag band of rebels and luke skywalker and han solo and princess leia and everybody were able to find out that the death star held a like flaw that like if they like a little like exhaust port that if they fired perfectly into it would cause a chain reaction and destroy the whole thing and help topple the empire um
00:08:29
Speaker
But for years, it was always like, wow, that's a huge plot hole. Why would they even design that? So in 2016, after Disney bought Star Wars, they decided to make like kind of a spinoff, not an actual episode, episode? Episode of Star Wars, like a, you know, mainline part of the saga.
00:08:47
Speaker
But like kind of a spinoff story called Rogue One, which told the story as to why the Death Star was designed with this um, you know, yeah, this design flaw in it. And was it intentional?
00:09:02
Speaker
What? for Yeah. Remember it was because Galen, I don't remember much about Rogue One. We watched it before ro watching Andor. Yeah. And I paid as close attention as I could, but it was hard to follow.
00:09:16
Speaker
um cause Andor is the thing that really put a lot of pieces together for me. I'm this is i'm behind the microphone now as Jim was primarily talking, but I'm just saying, like I don't think I fully caught that there was an intentional flaw, just that there was a flaw. So, yeah, like the architect and designer was like this guy that was like coerced by the Empire named Galen Erso. And like he didn't want to do it, but like they like kind of forced him and like they murdered his wife and like whatever, it separated him from his family. And like he was to kind of like forced to do it, but he put that flaw in it just so like there could be, you know, just for this reason. So they could like, you know, exploit it later on.
Andor Series: A Prequel to the Rebellion
00:09:56
Speaker
And one of the main characters of Rogue One is Galen Erso's daughter, Jyn Erso, who it's like kind of her mission. It falls on her shoulders to like get this message from her father and learn about this flaw.
00:10:08
Speaker
And so they can like this ah vulnerability in the Death Star and then get this information to the rebels so that the whole original trilogy can happen. And her like partner in crime, I guess not crime, but her partner in rebellion and like kind of like, ah you know, this co-star of Rogue One is a guy named Cassian Andor.
00:10:29
Speaker
And he's a kind of a cool commanding rebel leader, you know, who operates on the like kind of shades of gray sort of thing. yeah And but together they work on getting these plans to the rebels so that they can like, you know, do the thing.
00:10:46
Speaker
But to the point that Without, you know, i mean spoilers as we said, but like without going into too much detail, the end of Rogue One is very much like exactly the beginning of.
00:11:02
Speaker
Oh yeah, it like leads right into episode four, A New Hope. Like almost like yeah directly into, basically directly into. Pretty much, yeah. um And again, spoiler warning, the whole thing is like a suicide mission. yeah So like Jyn Erso and Cassian Andor and their whole like misfit team that comprise the Rogue One mission, like give their lives to like get these plans to the rebels. hmm.
00:11:27
Speaker
So Andor is like a prequel series that like starts five years before Rogue One and is basically about the formation of the Rebel Alliance as we have, like, as we come to understand them in the, through the original movies.
Rise of Fascism in Andor's Narrative
00:11:44
Speaker
yeah so that's basically the premise of andor is following cassian andor and his introduction into the rebellion as a concept and as a you know in practice as well he starts off very like much like a isolated kind of just rogue like yeah bandit who doesn't want anything to do with either empire or yeah rebels he's just interested in like taking like taking care of himself and his mom yeah that's it and you know which is highly relatable to a lot of us um and i think that is one of the most compelling things for me about and or in the way it was written like the way the stories that are followed are followed and the way they intertwine is that it is very much focused on the average lay person
00:12:37
Speaker
ah yeah throughout the whole saga. Like, both on the Rebellion side and on the Empire's side. Yeah, there's no there's no Emperors, there's no Darth Vader's, there's no even lightsabers or Jedi.
00:12:53
Speaker
It's all just, like, people in the Star Wars universe. like Just regular people. And and really, have it's really about, like, fascism? Which is cool. I say this every time we talk about it, but, like, you know, the way the wait, the way the Star Wars movies, the prequels were a little better at this, I guess, but like the original series, really original trilogy, it really frames the empire. That's just like general like bad guys. Yeah. Good guys which versus bad guys. Yeah. Good and evil. Yeah. You never really get a sense of like, why are the bad guys, the bad guys? Like,
00:13:29
Speaker
we can see obviously they like blew up a planet and like darth vader does his like force choke out whatever like we can see oh yeah those that's bad things to do but like right you know we don't have a clear understanding of like why is the empire that way like what what are they doing like why why have they deserved for a whole literal rebel alliance to have to form up
Andor's Themes and Modern Politics
00:13:54
Speaker
against them. Yeah. um And that's like what Andor does like an amazing job at painting a picture of. In the original, it's very easy to look at stormtroopers as silly cannon fodder bad guys that are almost like sims running into each other and can never get an accurate shot. But in Andor, stormtroopers are fucking scary. That's true. Before Andor, I never looked at stormtroopers and thought, oh, they're Nazis. But that's what they are and what they always have been. But Andor frames it actually like they are. And honestly, looking at it through the lens of 2026,
00:14:31
Speaker
like stormtroopers are ice yeah ultimately yeah like in a in a you know some one way or another like basically it's just like they're going around they're patrolling they're like banging down people's doors yeah and they're shooting people yeah taken over town completely yeah and like they're they're effectively like murdering people on the street especially remember the the there was a part in the beginning of season two where it's like literally about undocumented workers right undocumented immigrants basically yeah like um these characters these friends of cassian and or like hiding out on this like farm planet just trying to like you know hide out yeah lalo foa le low yeah yeah and like these like um gestapo guys basically are like going around like they They roll through and they're like, you know, it's just like a surprise inspection style thing that they come through and they're just like, all right, they're just going through. And you even get like an up close and personal, like one of these, you know, Imperial employees, like walking up and just making casual conversation and almost seeming to want to like soothe concerns, but not in like a way of like, we're the good guys, but in a way of like, want to get like in.
00:15:48
Speaker
I want to, I want to like, you know, let people or make people let their guard down. Yeah. um And it's very nefarious, but it's also very creepy because it's so relatable yeah to like, you know, the way that we can be like, okay, you see an ICE agent out on the street, like, you know, just trying to talk to people.
00:16:08
Speaker
and it's like, no, you're not supposed to talk to them. You're not supposed to trust them at all. Right. But like, you know, what else, like, what power do you have when they're the ones holding guns and they're the ones who, you know, technically they do not have the authority that they march around claiming that they do, but, like, at the same time, there's it's just this massive gray area in our real world, real life yeah this year of like, no, they can't be doing this, but also, like, they literally have, like, government funding. Right. Right.
00:16:43
Speaker
So yeah, it was just very, very frighteningly parallel, like relatable to watch. Andor, mean, Andor is awesome regardless, you know, and like would be a cool show. But I think why it's so like why we're talking about it now and why it like was so like culturally like why it hit so fundamentally really. Yeah. And when it did, was I don't think it would have if Kamala won. Honestly. Yeah. Because like, and and you know, a lot of things line up really crazily and like scarily, you know, there was a scene in later on in season two where like a senator,
00:17:19
Speaker
is like in the senate but gets arrested for like what he's saying basically and yeah apparently it aired the same like week that that actually happened like last year or whatever you know remember someone i forget where some some senator got arrested just for like speaking you know whatever so but um the the creator tony gilroy has said in a lot of interviews that he wasn't basing it off of current things i mean he wrote it back in like yeah 2020 or something yeah what he did was just like he's just like a history nerd who like it's who just like followed the steps that ah that history always takes of like the fall of like a republic and the rise of a fascist regime regime yeah yeah 100 and like and it's about like yeah propaganda and yeah and all this is the thing though too is that like i mean obviously we're talking about and or we're talking about this one specific like piece of art effectively but i also think about how you know
00:18:10
Speaker
The book 1984, I actually don't know when it was written, but I know it was before 1984. Yeah, it was like the forty s or 50s or something. Yeah. And it was so it was written. It was called 1984. And people now are looking at it like, oh, like.
00:18:28
Speaker
our world or our country is really frighteningly looking like 1984 like how did they know and it's like how do they know it's because this is how fascism always goes yeah this is how it always ends up yeah like it's it's not hard to like trace those patterns through history and you know that's literally what you know george orwell did with that and he also wrote animal farm didn't he like god the animal farm fucked me up yeah um but it's just like yeah of course it's going to be relatable because that's what we're currently dealing with but like crazy how perfectly timed those new episodes of the second season were with the events of 2025 when it was probably in post post-production by the time
00:19:22
Speaker
the election yeah right you know so gearing up to air crazy shit yeah um yep and it is also crazy that like star wars came out in 77 and it was like such a huge phenomenon yeah in america but like across the world too when like the whole thing george lucas has come out and said that like the empire is based on America and like the rebels are based on the Viet Cong. Like, and that's just so crazy how like, how lost that is on so many people yeah at the time and now, like, I mean, I don't know. It's crazy that like, I don't understand how anyone can be a Trump supporter and like,
00:20:07
Speaker
like watch star wars and root for the good guys right yeah like watch harry potter and re root for like the students you know yeah it doesn't make sense no it's it's just so ah so like such a lack of self-awareness yeah yeah well it's like you know similarly to how like you know the uh voice of like creedan's clearwater revival has been co-opted by the right when like they are you know unionized leftist style you know they're the voices of the left yeah they were and they still are things like that was just like yeah know this is this is how they've always been right they've always taken
00:20:48
Speaker
i the punisher the punisher jesus who a guy who takes like crime into his own hands and yet has become a symbol for the police what right literally what the fuck oh yeah so yeah um but yeah what else i mean i mean like also just again like telling the stories of the average person within these worlds within these planets these societies you know on both sides too like i became particularly attached to one of the employees working on the side of the empire
00:21:28
Speaker
Like, just because I was like, well, A, I secretly hoped that he would, like, flip. Defect. You know, yeah. At a certain point. um I was just, like, really hoping that he would start to, like, understand and see ah the flaws and the issues. And he he... And he was starting to. Yeah. Like, when he... There's a... We should we should talk about the Massacre of Gorman.
00:21:53
Speaker
because that's like, and that's the part. Have you ever been to Gorman? to Gorman? That's the part where he kind of just realizes like the scope of what he's helped. like Yeah. And unfortunately it's also when he out of lives. Yeah. Not self, but you know. Yeah. um But it you know, it's too little too late for him. But the whole time I'm just like, i I relate to him so much. Like just as a person, honestly, he's a bit more of like a,
00:22:22
Speaker
I don't know. he's He's very corporate because they literally work for... was What do they call it? Corporation? was a corporation something. Yeah, he was like a corporate security guard that like was yeah it was like hired by the Empire. Yeah, and like that's very much his... like It's not like he's a government employee necessarily, but just very much like a corporate type of employee. And it's like... makes me think of this gray area of corporate America that's just so deeply ingrained in like following rules and like you know being a whole bunch of hot air for nothing and and like you know chasing down rabbit holes for when you've explicitly been told it's no use or you shouldn't or whatever a like
00:23:08
Speaker
does you know He represents that, in my opinion, very, very well. Yeah. And I related to it because I'm just over here stuck in corporate America ah trying not to be. Yeah. um But also because he's just such a normal, regular person. He like...
00:23:27
Speaker
dealt with anxiety and he had a really shitty mom who was extremely overbearing and narcissistic like so many of our like boomer era you know relatives yeah um and just like the way that he is coping with it all and trying to assert some semblance of control by doing what he believes is the right thing in his work life and you know in the end realizing oh no like i was wrong yeah i think that like there's a lot of i like the everyone who everyone who works for the empire that we see like obviously believes in it but like there are some that you can see are just trying to like climb the ladder of like the hierarchy and like are only really care about their own position in the empire yeah they want the uh the fucking oh what the fuck is the word
00:24:23
Speaker
promotions yeah they want the promotions they want the you know credit they want the recognition um and they're doing it you know all for that but like at the ah at the same time you sort of also see from the higher up so like the top level working people for the empire obviously you don't see the emperor himself but you see pretty high up people and who all understand like hey these like corporate ladder or you know career ladder type of people are going nowhere yeah like there's nothing up at the top for them to achieve well and it also really does a really good job of showing like
00:25:04
Speaker
like that fascism will like ruin everyone. Like today they're going after like the little guy, but tomorrow, yeah, they'll turn on you just as fast, you know, that sort of thing. yeah But um yeah, I think like for those people that are in the empire, there are some that like, I think know they're doing the wrong thing and don't care.
00:25:19
Speaker
i think there are some that like believe this is the right thing. And I think what the character you're talking about, Cyril, like what he represents is he doesn't like work directly for the empire. He kind of like,
00:25:30
Speaker
again he's like it's like outsourced like yeah corporate contracted right yeah and then he like actually ends up losing that job pretty early on right um but i think what he kind of represents is like the person who was raised under like empire control and like yeah it's what it's their normal yeah he doesn't realize he doesn't see the bad the evil like the cosmic evil that they represent they he just to them to him it's order which he loves yeah um ultimate virgo vibes unfortunately yeah um but also traumatized you know like just again needing to assert some semblance of control in his own life and looking for like desperate for validation obviously and yeah you know because of his mother and whatever but yeah um yeah which is like also really goddamn cool the way that once again it's no longer just like good guy versus bad guy it is extremely complicated characters on all sides and yeah dealing with a growing evil that is extremely realistic um yeah even like the the very like the character dead ramiro who like is yeah like the kind of the face of the empire for this show she's like the uh isb or what is it uh imperial security bureau yeah um the face of that for in for in all um for our
00:26:52
Speaker
what am I trying to say for all intents and purposes? Like the face of the empire, in the face of evil. That the show yeah focuses on. And like, it starts off with her trying to find out like the mysterious leader of quote unquote axis, who is like, who she it believes is like the heart of the rebellion, who's building the rebellion network. And she's right about that. Yeah. But, um, she kind of eventually gets put on this other project, the Gorman. We'll bring, we we'll talk about the Gorman thing in a bit, but like,
00:27:18
Speaker
And she you could kind of even like her, like she's evil, she's like... And she kind of... ah but like you're like But also you see her as a person. You see her as a person, yeah. and like she there are times when you feel bad for her or there are times when it and you're like oh fuck yeah i like kick ass you know yeah yeah um so it is weird it's just very like it's not as black and white as star wars as the star wars you're used to right yeah i'm curious because i'm i i'm trying to think about it now art because we've seen you know we've listed two characters on like the imperial side of things who we have had our moments of finding them relatable and endearing. um I'm curious if I'm just not remembering, but like, is there or was there anybody on the side of the rebellion who we sort of also were like, oh, fuck you. Hell yeah. I can't remember. Luthan.
00:28:13
Speaker
Well, okay, I never really struggled with Luthien, though. Well, he is always doing the thing that's best for the Rebellion, but he will he's willing to sacrifice. He like he he uses people. he uses people, yeah. and like sees it like It is for the greater good, and ultimately, he's right, because the Rebels win, you know? yeah Like, 40 years down the road or whatever.
00:28:32
Speaker
But, like, yeah, he'll shoot, like, ah you know, he'll he'll promise someone like the character lani remember he like his like isb plant he's like he's like i gotta i gotta get out of here like it's all falling apart you gotta get me out of here you gotta to get me and my wife and my kid to safety blah blah blah they're building a weapon as soon as luthan gets this information he like shoots it he's like yeah we'll get you to safety boom yeah yeah okay yeah that's right that's right and there's a part that like where like cassian goes to gorman again and he comes back and he's like luther's like so what's up how are the people on gorman and luke cassian's like they're not ready for a rebellion like they're unorganized they don't know like what's going on there too like they like if we do this blah blah blah the empire will like destroy them and luther's like okay and cassian's like what you're cool with that
00:29:18
Speaker
like And he said he says something like, anyway he's like what if they like blow up or what or what if it like explodes? And Luthien says, then that'll burn very brightly. Implying that like that's a loss that will help inspire the rest of the galaxy. you know But that would be the entire planet of people he's willing to lose. And that's where it becomes very tough because, you know, I find myself frequently in the same boat in our real world in terms of like opinions about what has to happen. And I think that you and I have like semi argued about this before where I'm just sort of like, listen, at at a certain point, like being a moderate, being a centrist and, or or also being um like looking for,
00:30:05
Speaker
like a middle path is going to end up with no progress. Like we're not going to get where we need to be just by like trying to find the middle ground, trying to find like the happy medium, trying to find a compromise. Like we have allowed the right to take far too much ground have to start aggressively taking it back. Yeah. and you know, in my opinion, my personal opinion like the expense of like, don't know. I'm not sure like what exact sacrifices, cause I'm certainly not saying like, let's let people die for it, but also like, it's not going to be surprising if that happens. It won't be surprising to me. Like it's, it's just people have already died for the opposite side to, you know, take what they want. Yeah.
00:31:01
Speaker
And you know, So I guess I sort of watched Luthan and was like, man, he's ruthless, but like, he's not wrong in the end. Right. Because he makes all these decisions that because he knows it will advance the cause of the rebellion. Right.
00:31:18
Speaker
And he's right. And the same rules apply to himself. Yeah. When he, like, like if he needs to kill someone to silence them, but remember in the end he gets caught and he's injured in the in the hospital.
00:31:28
Speaker
His, like, assistant daughter-ish character, like, goes out of her way to kill, to make sure he's dead. Yeah. Just so that they can't, like, get any information from him. And she knows she knows that's what he wants. Yeah, that that's what has to happen. It's not like he's like, oh, don't kill me. Right. Like, he's not a hypocrite. I think that's what also I see deeply appreciate about him that makes me sort of as shitty as it sounds, it excuses, in my opinion, all these, like, questionable, like, moral ah decisions he's made. There's a famous monologue that you should YouTube right now. Just, like, type in... You, the listener. Yeah, yeah, you, the listener.
00:32:05
Speaker
Just type in Luthen monologue, L-U-T-H-E-N, and it's, like, gonna come up right up. It's so cool. But my favorite line from it is... um I burn my decency for a sunrise I know I'll never see. Yeah.
00:32:19
Speaker
So cool. Yeah. And relatable. Yeah. And understandable. And of course, to top it all off, Luthan is played by the iconic legendary Stellan Skarsgård. And he has never, ever butchered a role. Right. It's true.
00:32:37
Speaker
And yeah, he's he's famous for a very good reason. Yeah. So, yeah. incredible incredible um and then we haven't even touched on your favorite character mothma mon mothma she is so cool i was like my first three thoughts were emo
00:33:03
Speaker
K2SO or Bix. like They're all good characters. Yes. But Mon Mafa is like one of the there's like probably like three or four central characters and I say one she's one of them. She's one of the few that gets to you know or or that ends up making appearances in i don't know if all three of the original movies but at least the first original movie yeah no she's in character i mean the character yeah and she's in return of the jedi i think okay the third of the original trilogy okay um so she's like an established character in the star wars thing and she's always and she is like a general sort of like leader and in the rebellion yeah but we kind of see her origin story she starts out as a senator yeah
00:33:44
Speaker
yeah and like and it's very cool because it like takes the whole like same setting like it it does a really good job of bridging the prequels too with the yeah because it like does that whole like that senate room with all the yeah pods and everything where we're used to seeing um what's your face um a bad day yeah yeah yeah um so she's a senator who like believes in you know freedom and you know yeah the republic basically But like it's like sees like the power of her power and the Senate's power like fading day by day like rapidly. And it's just like how she kind of like and it's mostly how can she make a difference still in the system. Yeah.
00:34:22
Speaker
And it turns out she can't. Right. Right. So she has she gives like one ah final kick ass speech at the end of season two and then they have to like ferry her away into the. Yeah. Barely get her to safety. Yeah. For her to join the alliance on Yavin 4. Yeah.
00:34:38
Speaker
know But it's awesome, yeah. Mon Mothma also gives a great speech. Speech, the monologue, yeah. It's really powerful. And like it's especially powerful to watch like because she is like she's such a privileged character. She's not only just a senator, but like also from like a wealthy yeah family, a wealthy community, um you know effectively passing along that like wealth and traditions to her own daughter. And like And yet she is so good. Like she's just so like she wants all of the right things. And it's unfortunate that like, you know, everything falls apart.
00:35:22
Speaker
including her career, her life. I don't know what happens to her family when she's, you know, spirited away to Yavin. But like, i yeah just sort of, once again, also watching like,
00:35:38
Speaker
this person who wants to believe in the system working it's again like i just relate to um watching people ah like friends of mine in particular be like you know we have to work within the system blah blah blah like the rules are there for a reason like like and wishing that they could understand that the system is working as intended it's working against us yeah and like you know that we have to if we're going to see progress in our own society in real life we have to break the system we have to like you know destroy it and come up with something new that actually serves the people to go back to what you were saying about our real world situation earlier yeah and you said like we kind of like butted heads or whatever i think
00:36:27
Speaker
two things okay i think the right has does and has been fighting dirty yes you know and that's fucked up yes and the left hasn't and we need to yes or else we don't stand a chance exactly i agree about that but i think like our ideals and like what's best for so society and humanity i think ultimately is like you know, the rights and the freedoms for everyone and like everything that we basically believe shouldn't be as far left as it is.
00:37:02
Speaker
I don't understand. have to be. that's saying. It shouldn't be. Yeah. some reason it is. And unfortunately, what I think in order to get there, it is small steps. Yeah. I think it is going to have to be taken like, uh,
00:37:13
Speaker
spoon feeding it to us as a large or else i think what's going happen is is like the kamala situation i think this pendulum pendulum will swing too far left people will freak out it'll be too radical quote unquote yeah and then like we'll just either end up right back where we are or worse yeah which is why i think like we almost have to move left so slowly that they don't realize yeah and well that's the tough thing is that like
00:37:38
Speaker
There's I understand and agree and like generally with what you're saying. um But I also I'm like, okay, I absolutely see the pitfalls of like the left having a hostile takeover that like ends up being too jarring for a lot of people.
00:37:54
Speaker
But also, once again looking at our 2026 political landscape let's look at fucking zoran mambani and how he was voted in through the system thank goodness like he was voted in completely validly and he has not had a hostile takeover over of any kind But all of a sudden he's implementing socialist systems and he is doing everything that is within his power, which is quite limited as just the mayor of New York. But he's working with the state of New York and he's like getting so much more done than anybody ever would have expected because our expectations have dropped so low from the claims of like,
00:38:36
Speaker
all politicians from all sides claiming, oh, like, it just doesn't work that way. You don't understand. It's all complicated. it takes a lot of time, blah, blah, blah. No, it doesn't. Turns out,
00:38:49
Speaker
We just push the button, change things, make decisions, change things. And he's doing that. And now people who, even the people who didn't vote for him are seeing benefits. Yes. And like, it's the kind of thing where it's like, that's not spoon feeding in my opinion. That's just being competent.
00:39:08
Speaker
Yes. But Zoran works because it's in New York city and there's may five or ten there maybe five or six cities in this country that where that could happen. Yeah. It's true. It's true. But it's also, it sets a precedent. Yeah, it does. Because everybody in the country and everybody around the world is watching him. But maybe Zoran himself is just one of those spoon feeding. Maybe he is the spoon. Yeah. Zoran Mamdani is a spoon. Like he he himself and hitting what he's doing is a baby step, you know? Fair. Fair enough. But it's like, you know, I'm i'm looking at that. I guess it it depends on the scale at which you're like thinking or looking at it from. Yeah.
00:39:47
Speaker
But I'm looking at that as like a, hey, if you just give social, like, ah socialism in general, but like, you know, democratic socialism. I was like blanking on what the like watered down term is. If you give democratic socialism a chance, or even if you give socialism a chance,
00:40:14
Speaker
like look how good things can be it's like it's it's it's not only oh you know everybody gets to have universal child care and oh look at all these landlords seeing you know consequences for not maintaining uh the apartment buildings like etc etc it's not only that but it's also oh look how many people aren't getting murdered you know like look at like it's like It's like a choice between so many people dying systemically or, you know, from senseless violence or everybody gets to be happy and live comfortably. Like, it's just like, wow, I cannot believe how hard of a choice that is for some people. i know. just can't believe some people, terror some people, a lot of people are still so desperately clinging to the bad choice. Yeah. But that's just because they're brainwashed, much like Cyril Karn.
00:41:06
Speaker
But at the same time, like, there's no way, like... There's no way I believe that like in 10, 15, 20 years, Zoran isn't going to be operating on like a presidential election scale. Right. Like he's going to get there. Yeah. AOC is going to eventually get there, you know, so like and I keep talking about the pendulum, but it's true, like, yeah and which is why.
00:41:26
Speaker
Tony Gilroy was able to write and or because everything's cyclical, you know? Yeah. So as far right as the pendulum is right now, it's going to swing the other way. Yeah. And, you know, hopefully we can keep it there, which is not realistic, I know. But maybe maybe one of these times we'll learn from our fucking history.
00:41:44
Speaker
But at least settle somewhere. I mean, somewhere or somewhere. I don't know. Yeah, it's very hard. It's very, very hard to predict because yeah, like it sure, like, you know, it is, I don't want it to sound super selfish, but it's just sort of like, sure, the pendulum might swing. And then like, by the end of our lifetimes, we see like a socialist, like paradise. um But then, you know, what happens after we're gone?
00:42:12
Speaker
And so the people who are born, the future generations who don't have it like imprinted in their memory, like how bad things can get if you let that pendulum swing back to the right too far. Well, that's what i'm saying. It will. Like, I'd love to believe that this is the thing we learn from and ultimately change forever. But like, yeah,
00:42:32
Speaker
5 000 years of human history points otherwise i know yeah so like unfortunately i don't know i mean you know but then again like we can also look at it through the lens of like patriarchy versus matriarchy in the way that like a lot of people are calling for a flip to the matriarchy and like effectively being awake to that option like even if it's something that doesn't you know it's not like People can just stand up and be like, I'm voting for a matriarchy. because It's not a question. Like, this is just how our whole world society is set up is under a patriarchy. But like, to be aware and awake to the possibility of like, hey, we don't have to like operate within this like
00:43:13
Speaker
system this stricture of like catering to like men ruling the world like that's another pendulum it's been swinging for way longer than the empire of america yeah um and i can see a world where yes there will be like smaller ups and downs but like things can be generally better overall for all of humanity when we finally swing back toward a matriarchal
00:43:53
Speaker
Society. And like a society that understands and respects and worships even the divine feminine rather than being afraid of it. So that gets, but that gets, yeah, way too into like a, even a spiritual territory, frankly. Yeah. There's, I mean, there's a lot of things that need to change. Yeah. Like yeah some 180, some, I don't know, and any a number of degrees between that. Yeah. But yeah, hopefully, i don't know.
00:44:24
Speaker
One can only hope. Yeah. But yeah.
00:44:30
Speaker
Andor. Watch it. Yes. It's worth it. It is really, really good. It's super worth it. Yeah. And it's like, again, i because i cannot emphasize enough how much I personally, and I feel like I'm not the only one who feels this way. know I'm not the only one who feels this way. But I personally...
00:44:52
Speaker
understood and related a lot better to the characters in andor than any of the other star wars movies because i them yeah i am them like that is why it's so compelling to me yeah the other the mainline movies are like very archetypal you know there's like the naive farm boy turned hero and yeah you know the reluctant rogue who with a heart of gold yeah and the rebellious princess yeah like yeah whereas like these are very nuanced real complicated characters real people yeah i love me a complicated character for sure yeah who so it's like i've always liked star wars i was raised on it but like i really didn't actually understand it until i watched andor yeah really really didn't understand it
00:45:49
Speaker
so And you know yeah, it does offer, it's like, it it offers like a lot of, I don't know, yeah. it's like there are There are cool things where it's like, oh, we get this like obscure character from one scene in the third in Return of the Jedi, her origin story. Or like, i don't know, we we see how part, like we kind of get a really interesting glimpse as to how like the frame of the Death Star is even constructed, physically constructed. right um things like that or ah we we see how why they like the rebels set up on the moon of on yavin 4 you know right little like kind of like fan service things like that play a fun part yeah but like um but yeah it does but on a greater greater scale it does like an awesome job of framing it as like a people versus fascism story yeah and and how how like the intricacies and dangers
00:46:44
Speaker
and like subterfuge of how a rebellion can successfully be born. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So thank you for strong arming me into watching it.
00:46:57
Speaker
Yes. Do you think they should, if they were going to watch it, ah let's assume the listener is going to watch it, but they've seen most, if not all, of the many regular Star Wars movies. Do you think they should start with Rogue One and then watch Andor? Or watch Andor and lead it into Rogue One? I think they should watch Andor first yeah and then watch Rogue One.
00:47:18
Speaker
Interesting. Yeah, because once again, but again, this is just coming from me who... didn't fully understand the overall star wars concept until i watched andor but like i couldn't even i'm gonna have to re-watch rogue one now having seen andor because i didn't care enough when i was watching rogue one yeah but that's just me other people might care enough yeah like i think though if i were to give my own opinion watch andor first then watch rogue one yeah
00:47:49
Speaker
This has been a nerd alert. Yeah. Alert nerd. When i was in college, we used to have this debate all the time. Not even a debate, but there's this kid I went to school with named Dan Han. Shout out Dan Han. If you're ever listening. Yeah.
00:48:07
Speaker
Who like was like such a Star Wars freak. and we we all I went to art school, film school. We all liked Star Wars, but like he was like on a next level. um And for some reason, he kind of favored the prequels more. I mean, maybe just we he grew up, I don't know, whatever. yeah But like um we always had this kind of a conversation where like,
00:48:26
Speaker
ah If we had kids, who how would you show them Star Wars? Four, five, six, one, two, three? One, two, three, four, five, six. The main argument being if you show them one, two, three, four, five, six, the Luke I am your father twist and Empire Strikes Back is no longer a twist. We know Anakin is Darth Vader.
00:48:43
Speaker
But if you do one, two, three, four, five, six, they the kids will grow up thinking Anakin is your hero and the twist would then be that like, oh shit, no, he's the villain this whole time. Right. So I don't know. I think you should watch it the way it was the way it came out.
00:48:58
Speaker
yeah But I think it's an interesting conversation. Yeah. you Damn you, George Lucas, for causing everybody to have that dilemma. Yeah.
00:49:10
Speaker
It's his fault. I love like... i love like There are some things in like the original that like you're like, okay. like he he you know He loves to be like, oh, it was episode four the whole time. i was always going to do this. But like when it came out, it wasn't even called The New Hope. it was just Star Wars. you know Right. so like And like there are cool things where he Obi-Wan will be like, or Luke says, like you fought with my father in the Clone Wars. Yeah, okay, that's cool.
00:49:34
Speaker
but's Also, there's a part where Obi-Wan calls Darth Vader Darth. As if it's like his first name. oh my god and like I don't think this is all the way thought that's not through as much as he pretends it was. oh No, probably not. But anyway, that's all. like I'm done.
00:49:48
Speaker
Yep, that's it. Anyway, thanks for talking.
00:49:55
Speaker
Straw rats. Straw rats. That's Star Wars backwards. Shout out, Owen. If you know, you know. Okay. okay Goodbye. What's Andor backwards? raw dan Rodna.
00:50:09
Speaker
Rodna. Yeah. Anyway. Bye. That's not how you end a podcast, Jim. Bye. No, I'm not going to run through all of our socials as per usual. You can find those in our description if you want. They're always there. I copy paste them every month, every month, every week.
00:50:31
Speaker
As Jim slurps the very end of his iced coffee. But yeah. Thank you for joining us listeners and also thank you jim for joining me and rambling about straw rats go punch a stormtrooper go punch a stormtrooper what a heartwarming message to end on all right we love you guys we'll be back again next week bye