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Balancing the Future Ep. 15 - 150 Hours from Two Perspectives with Marlene Alexander & Crystal Cooke
219 Plays13 days ago
Join host Christopher Mitchell as he speaks with two experts about the much-debated 150 credit hour requirement for CPA licensure. Marlene Alexander and Crystal Cooke each share their unique perspectives on the issue, covering topics like the regulation’s history and origin, why it has served the profession, if it still serves in this capacity, and what a change would require. Compare insights surrounding this controversial topic and learn new perspectives about reframing the criteria and its implications.
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Transcript
Introduction and CPA Requirements
00:00:09
Speaker
This week we'll focus on a highly debated 150 credit hour requirement for CPA license. Hearing from two different perspectives on the subject from two different expert guests.
00:00:20
Speaker
First, we have Marlene Alexander, who dives into where the 150 hour rule comes from, what it looks like in today's accounting industry, and the many considerations around evolving the regulation.
00:00:32
Speaker
Then we hear from Crystal Cook, a leader within the SCPA who takes an approach to shift the discussion from numbers to competencies. Let's dive in.
00:00:44
Speaker
I'm just so excited to have Marlene Alexander to be here with us. She's a very smart individual. We are going to have a conversation today about the 150 hours and what that means when we say the profession and as an accountant and the requirement.
00:01:01
Speaker
So that's, I know that you are in and respected executive leader. You work for ah very large organization, Hilton, and I know you've been doing this in a lot of different ways, meaning your involvement within the community,
00:01:14
Speaker
as well as all that you've got going on with a job. And, you know, hats off to you for being here because I know serving, it's often an afterthought how much time we invest in it at various stages of our career. So we really do appreciate your being here. Thank you for having
Marlene's Career Insights and Diversity Challenges
00:01:29
Speaker
me.
00:01:29
Speaker
What am I missing when I put that information out there about yourself? What else do you want the audience to know about you? You know, I'm an accountant by trade, I say all the time, um but I'm just a people person. Right. So I have a love for people in general.
00:01:45
Speaker
um have this this feeling that I'm over overcome with when I see people together and I see people working together towards a common goal. um So that's where my passions lie. You don't really get that crunching numbers every day.
00:01:59
Speaker
um So that's why I feel like I have to do other things. Right. You know, serve in other ways. um you know, just to to be able to make an impact on people. So another thing that comes to mind, advanced degrees.
00:02:14
Speaker
Sure. What you're this is your thesis, your doctoral thesis. Yes. I'm currently um in a doctoral program to get a doctor of business administration. um And what I chose for my dissertation topic um is um the scarcity of black accountants um in the U.S. or I'm sorry, the scarcity of black CPAs in the U.S. s for years.
00:02:36
Speaker
There's been studies on um diversity in the accounting field. um It was hard for me to get my topic approved um because it has to be a current issue.
00:02:48
Speaker
um Whereas I just said that it's been... an issue since 1969, you know, when we had the first black CPA. um But to me, it's current and it's relevant for everyone, even more so that the industry in general is seeing a shortage of people majoring accounting.
00:03:06
Speaker
and people um even just going into the field. So how else can we help the industry overall than to say, let's solve a problem that we've had for 55 years and diversify the industry? So not only does that help the industry, but it also helps people that look like me.
00:03:21
Speaker
Awesome. Awesome. So you mentioned shortage. What does that mean? ah we Are we 500,000 short? Are we, what percentage point are we short? What does that mean when we say shortage?
00:03:32
Speaker
I'm going to take you on a short story. okay Take me on a long one. How much you need. So um the National Association of Black Accountants was created 1969. And at that time, there were CPAs in the which were black.
00:03:47
Speaker
wow today what's that fifty five years later two percent of cpas our play So just let that resonate. It's what's happened, what hasn't happened to get us to this point to where we have organizations like NABA, we have organizations within the ASCPA, you know, in state societies that promote diversity, yet there's still only 2% of CPAs that are African-American.
00:04:15
Speaker
Let me ask you, let me put a spin on this and twist it and say there's a human capital need as it relates to being CPAs. Yes. Isn't it all relevant? I know that we would need diverse candidates to be a part of the equation, but right we need bodies. We
Evolving Roles and CPA Pathways
00:04:28
Speaker
need bodies. So how do you feel about that when I say we need bodies, we need human capital to solve for this?
00:04:33
Speaker
What does that mean to you? To me, it means that something is happening. the The industry, business industry is shifting, right? So there's so many different um trajectories available in the business field, right?
00:04:46
Speaker
um I think advances in technology has is has led to a lot of people taking more IT routes. And when I say advances, I mean the the data um world that we're in right now. There's so much data available. It's been available for 10 years.
00:05:00
Speaker
We've just now gotten computers that can keep up with it all. So a lot of um people are so are are more um apt to go towards those types of fields. um Does that mean accounting goes away? No.
00:05:13
Speaker
Accounting is just not, and I like to use this word, it's not a sexy profession for anyone. So, and and you know, that that's a sticking, a sticky point for me because it is, because I know what goes into being an accountant and I know all that we offer to the community.
00:05:31
Speaker
ah Why is that with the focus on AI, when you start thinking about what we really deliver when we're a part of an accounting firm or, you know, within business in general, right we do debits, we do credits, we do tax, but we also consult. Right.
00:05:46
Speaker
And I know I had a conversation with someone the other day, a partner at Deloitte, and she shared with me, she said, you know, I audit ai So that's a unique skillset.
00:05:57
Speaker
And she's a CPA. right So when you think about that, why why don't we celebrate that more? Why don't we share that in a different way to create more interest? Agreed, agreed. And I think it's not so much we're at a point to where we need to celebrate those things, we just need to let people know that it exists. I am volunteer at um um colleges doing career days and things of that nature, and speaking to students.
00:06:23
Speaker
And they, oh, I don't know an accountant. I've never heard of um um CPAs. They just do tax. I mean, there's just so many misnomers about the profession in general that we don't get to the point to be able to talk about the sexy things. I mean, you've got CPAs that are um doing doing audits and and working with professional ball teams. You know, a lot of the young men at um colleges, when we talk about that, they're like, really? You know, I'm like, well, who else do you think, you know, handles the books and things of that nature? So i just think the profession in general, the perception um and the awareness that's out there is a big gap that we've got to figure out how do we fill it.
00:07:04
Speaker
So when i when ah I said you were the expert, And I think about 150 hours. What is that for this audience? What is that? What are we talking about? Yeah, we're talking about another year of school, basically.
00:07:17
Speaker
um Your normal degree is 120 hours. um It's another you know, it's it's it's really another year school. So what does that mean? Does that mean you get um an advanced degree? Do you try to do a master's degree?
00:07:29
Speaker
um What does that mean for you personally? And honestly, it means something different for for everyone. But you have to have a plan at the beginning of the first year to be able to accomplish that. And I think that's a big part of we may have accounting students that come in as freshmen.
00:07:45
Speaker
I want to be an accountant. I want to learn about numbers. I want to learn debits and credits. But if they don't have a plan to get 150 hours, that's what then you see your friends who are marketing majors and you see your friends that are biology majors and they know that they're done with school on this day, on this year.
00:08:01
Speaker
And you're thinking, well, if I really want to do this accounting thing, I've got to go another year. That's a turnoff. um I mean, I'm being honest, that's a turnoff. And I think everyone knows that we're dealing with a demographic that thinks differently um and prefers different things. Right.
00:08:17
Speaker
So going into school at that age, you've got to be able to get that message across in the way and they receive it. um So that's what it is, i think, for the students. What is it for the profession?
00:08:29
Speaker
um You know, it was set up to be a way to set this certification apart from other um you know professions. Can I pause you right there? Yes, for sure. Set it apart because I'm a date myself.
00:08:43
Speaker
Yeah. I graduated with a bachelor's degree and that was enough. Uh huh. So we say set apart. So they were intentional about making it what? when we When we say set apart. what Yeah. So in I think it in 1983 is when the first state made that mandate was Florida.
00:09:01
Speaker
that required 150 credit hours to sit for the exam. And the thinking was um the accounting profession at that level of being a CPA, being um licensed professional, we needed to set ah those folks apart from a regular accountant, a bookkeeper, an AP clerk. I mean, it is all the same industry, right?
00:09:23
Speaker
um But I think the the the idea of this um field needs a specialist. like a medical doctor, like a lawyer, and we need to um put this education requirement on there so that we get the best of the best.
00:09:40
Speaker
I think that's how it was taught it, right? So that's what we need to create ah the cream of the crop specialist in our field. So that was what was supposed to set a CPA apart um from others in the accounting industry and and others specialists in other industries know when i think about when i was coming out and i said they're changing the requirement i kind of freaked out because i didn't want to go back and get another degree so i got to meet a certain requirement and the first thing that would come to mind is that okay we've always been put in that bucket that professional bucket
00:10:11
Speaker
Okay, I'm an attorney, but I've got this amount of hours it takes for me to be certified to do that. I'm a doctor. It takes me even more time to get through that exercise. And now you have a ah CPA, you know, and it takes even more time to do that. Right.
00:10:29
Speaker
One thing that's on my mind now and the way I understand it and interpret it, it probably makes sense now, given the change in the solutions that we offer and what we're delivering. Right.
00:10:40
Speaker
It's not hard. it's it's Excuse me. It's not easy be a CPA. Right. and And the reason I say that is because there's a lot riding on your opinion of what's going on. And I think about how we get involved, not only from a financial statement perspective, but we're signing off on the accuracy and and the controls and the risk and how management operates.
00:11:05
Speaker
That's a lot. It is. So it makes sense now. And I say now, and I think we're a lot more advanced, you know, from where we were. But did it make sense then? You know, I think it that it you'd you'd have a different opinion depending on the perspective that you come from. Right.
00:11:22
Speaker
um And and what's interesting is there's some studies out there that have looked at people in accounting firms who have CPAs and those that don't. basically to see if that skill level is heightened, which is what they assume would be the case by adding these extra education.
00:11:40
Speaker
And it the study did not prove that it was heightened, nor that it was any less. It's an even plane, right? So you've got specialists who are able to do, like you can't consult without the specialty unless you have someone with the specialty signing off on it, et cetera.
00:12:00
Speaker
So you take the same um tenure of professional, one without the certification, one with, and studies are showing that the level of work is about the same.
00:12:11
Speaker
So I think knowing this, having had time to do that type of research, we need to take a step back now and say, did we, get the benefit that we assume we would get by enacting this additional education, right? Why do we need to say that?
Reevaluating the 150-Hour Rule
00:12:29
Speaker
A lot of people would say, if it's worked for all these years, it makes it harder to get the specialization, which makes it more of a niche, which which makes it you know um more something to to to aspire to.
00:12:45
Speaker
However, if you can't get bodies and seats to do the work, you need to take a look and say, do we need to make some changes? Also, considering the fact that we're in this data-driven society and the accounting firms are hiring less CPAs every day fill seats that would have normally been CPAs, that number is going to continue to go down, in my opinion.
00:13:10
Speaker
um So i think it's I think it's important to look at why did we feel initially in the 80s that this is what we needed to to do. And I'm not going to refute that. Right. at the time, it was the right decision for the people that were making the decision in their opinion.
00:13:27
Speaker
However, looking at where we are now and looking at studies that are showing that the skill level is no different. We need to take a step back. And we also need to consider if by taking a step back and making some changes.
00:13:41
Speaker
We can allow a little bit more diversity into the profession. Okay. So but another question would be along the lines of the government. yeah You can only do so much.
00:13:52
Speaker
Correct. They control who's knighted to do what, when, right and who can opine, and who can do whatever. great how do you feel about that? Because all this is happening, and various states do it differently. Right.
00:14:06
Speaker
There's an expectation after a certain period of time, yeah after you practice and do whatever, then you become a CPA. I know just a little bit of it. But I mean, how do you feel about the government and how how much can you really do?
00:14:18
Speaker
Right. Right. I mean, they're not together. Every state now doesn't think the same way. So the um governing bodies of the accounting industry, let's start there, lobby. you know um Every state has their own requirements. And as if you'd see now, every state now requires 150 hours. It used to be, oh, this one didn't. 121. Yeah, yeah. Every state is requiring it now.
00:14:45
Speaker
um and and And they want to say reciprocity is a thing, right? you you You need to be able to go across state lines and be able to practice with the same types of, you know, qualifications.
00:14:56
Speaker
um And I don't refute that, right? You know, so I think to be a CPA in Georgia, you should have to be a CPA in New York, right? You know, if you're wanting if you're wanting to move. However,
00:15:07
Speaker
Again, knowing that the level of skill is no different, um whether you have the degree or not, um to me means, you know, we're thinking, we're making some assumptions and they may may not be true.
00:15:20
Speaker
Can we do anything about it? You know, like you said, it's the government, um you know, the states and then and the state societies make the rules. um But I think these same state societies and these same um um groups that work with the accounting industry also have objectives for what the demand and what the supply is for, um you know, this this their the CPAs in their states and and and the firms in their states.
00:15:46
Speaker
So, you know, we've got to play well with one another. Right. In order to get to the common goal, which is to be able to have the supply um specialists for the demand of work that's that that's coming through.
00:16:00
Speaker
So what if I if I share we need an accountant to review and sign off? I don't need an accountant to look at some of those steps, some of the skills required early within an audit.
00:16:12
Speaker
I need somebody to validate and be able to look at that work. I'm with my son. out He's smart, smart a young man. Yeah. I wouldn't let him sign off on anything. Right, right. I might let him, you know, go do some cash flow stuff and do some other things. He's smart kid.
00:16:27
Speaker
Or young man. he won't He won't go with me saying he's a kid. but But is that okay? So that given that and understanding what an apprentice is, right and I'm trying to work up to this, is that where it makes sense? I think so. um And I think we're seeing that now where there's being some studies done. There's some states that are getting into this.
00:16:49
Speaker
You can have 120 hours, take the exam, and then we'll give you in a certain amount of time to get the other 30 hours. the same as they have for that your um experience level, right? So, you know, you've got to have at least um your experience to be a CPA or have worked under, um you know, um in a business um under supervision of others that that have the
Alternative Pathways and State Alignment
00:17:12
Speaker
certification. So um I love the appriceship apprenticeship route. I mean, and and if you think about it, that's something that could open up a lot of supply. i mean, you can go the community college route.
00:17:23
Speaker
and start having folks working in bookkeeping, knowing that that's their route. and In two years, I'll be at the bachelor level. And then at the bachelor's level, you know I'll be ready to work, you know take the exam, work, get what I need to be certified. right And you will have those like like like me and my colleagues who can sign off, you know who can do that review. And those students and and not students, those young professionals will become that in time. right so So I think that that apprenticeship is a good a good route to to start getting us where we need to be.
00:17:57
Speaker
Where I really, really struggle, and I think the apprenticeship um conversation is a big one, is for students who... first degree students, i'm not not first degree, first generation students, absolutely or students who are on um financial aid or students who, you know, have a scholarship for four years. I mean, we're basically disqualifying them from getting into the profession in a way that they may want to because they can't afford to take an extra year school, you know, or we're putting the burden on them to get another year's worth of loans.
00:18:33
Speaker
You know, um i think, I think, We don't as even as a CPA, because um I don't think about that. I was like, yes, we we want people to be um trained and educated.
00:18:46
Speaker
You know, you kind of feel this hazing thing going on just in in in every profession. it It kind of happens where I had to do it. You know, ah feel like they have to do it. But I understand that. You know, that that's a burden and and it can be a burden. want to say it is a burden, but it can be a burden and it doesn't matter, um um you know, where you come from. It's it's just an an economical thing as much as school costs today.
00:19:09
Speaker
You know, so you have your pros and cons, right? Your pro is, you know, we have these folks who've gotten this extra year of education, um you know, with the new rules for the CPA exam. Now, you know, you've got your three or three parts that everyone takes and you've got this one part that you can choose.
00:19:24
Speaker
um I think that's great, right? It allows people from different perspectives um to be able to consult and to ah opine on on on statements and such. But at the same time, you know, I think we're going to be here in 10 years with the same argument.
00:19:38
Speaker
You know, someone who got a data um or who took the fourth part as a ah data-driven type thing and someone who took the fourth part as something else, Are they given the same level of, of ah you know, able to give the same level of skill um to the firms, you know?
00:19:53
Speaker
So I think it's, I don't want to say it's trial and error, um but if you think about it, what we did 1983, Could have been trial and error.
00:20:03
Speaker
So who has more say in the whole process? Because I think if I think about the government and they're saying it's this way and I think about a public accounting firm, yeah which a lot of them said, OK, I don't care if they're an apprentice.
00:20:16
Speaker
I think that really works. That helps me out in the interim. Yeah. um So who really has more say? Isn't it the government that really has to say? It's 150 hours. don't think 150 is going anywhere. If you get them to come together and say it's 150, 150. Right.
00:20:30
Speaker
right So where do we go knowing that? Yeah. and my My answer was going to be wherever we go, everyone has to be on the same page. Right. So if we say it's not 150 and it's OK for it to be 120, then from the East Coast to the West Coast, these state societies have to be.
00:20:47
Speaker
on the same page, right? The government or or really it's, it's the you know, like the governing boards of the state societies are making these decisions, right? um So if Tennessee goes to 120, and I live in a ah tri-state area in Tennessee, Arkansas, Mississippi has to do the same. And then because if not, we have that reciprocity problem.
00:21:08
Speaker
So, you know, it's
00:21:11
Speaker
Generationally, I think the leaders, we have some who say I had to do it, the rest have to do it. you know and And that's not an expert opinion. That's just um you know being real. I think that's, we see a lot of that.
00:21:23
Speaker
um But I think it has to be a meeting of the minds and it has to be, um I wanna say every state has to suffer the same in order for them all to come together and say, okay, we're willing to make a change.
00:21:37
Speaker
You know, and i think we got there with the changes that are being made right now to the CPA exam. Right. um You know, it's the uniform exam. You know, everyone in every state takes the same one.
00:21:49
Speaker
um We were smart enough and um um together enough to get to where it took years. Right. To get to where we wanted to make those changes.
00:22:00
Speaker
But I think someone has to spearhead. the charge and say, we've got all get on the same page on if it's 120 or if it's 150. And if it is 150, I think we have to have some really concrete evidence of why it needs to say that.
00:22:17
Speaker
I say we need to. we we won't change it, right? You know, um but I think people that can publish things and put it out there to get enough of the think tank going, Teresa Hammond, um Anton Lewis, folks like that, that are really, really um writing a lot, researching a lot and from different perspectives. I love Teresa Hammond's writings um and and and I love the fact that she's an ally and she's, you know, writing so much about, um you know, Blacks and African-Americans and Africans. I mean, she's done some studies in south of South Africa on um the accounting field.
00:22:52
Speaker
Anton Lewis is coming from a different angle. I love reading his stuff. And sometimes I read it, I was like, I feel a little militant after having read that. But, you know, sometimes it has to be said a certain way to get to ah a middle ground. Right.
00:23:05
Speaker
um and and And I don't know who that's going to be. You know, um I'm hoping what I put out there, someone will say, man, that that makes sense. um as I seem to be middle of the road. Let me pause you there. Yeah. You said what you put out there, because I'm thinking doctoral thesis expert.
00:23:22
Speaker
What's the solution? What is your solution? Not someone else's solution. What do you think needs to happen? Yeah. So I don't want to give you my solution because I haven't conducted my case study. You can give me an outline, though.
00:23:37
Speaker
I give you the outline, which I'm working on in the hotel tonight.
Barriers and DEI Critique
00:23:40
Speaker
um thes For me, that what what I think and and my my dissertation is on the scarcity of black accountants specifically.
00:23:48
Speaker
Right. And I think there are three things that really affect. Black people getting into the field at this level. One is awareness and and the perception of the um profession.
00:24:01
Speaker
um I can write 10 pages on just that, right? You have students who don't know an accountant, no one in their families an accountant. No one's telling them this is a good even you say you hear a lot of underprivileged students talk about, you know, doctors, lawyers, basketball players, rappers. And i'm and i'm and these are stereotypes. But this is this is by the numbers what the African-American community aspire to be, um you know, and and it's been proven, you know, with studies.
00:24:29
Speaker
But like I say, it's not a sexy profession, but at least getting the word out there at a very early age um allows students who look like my children to say, hmm, that piqued my interest. I need to learn more about it.
00:24:45
Speaker
So that's one thing, the the awareness of of what the field has to offer. What are those um professions, careers that you can have um you know in the in this field?
00:24:55
Speaker
um What do they pay? what you know What do they do? Because we're not, it's not a visible um field. you know You don't see the accountant front center, right? um So that's one thing, though the awareness and the perception. The other thing,
00:25:08
Speaker
is the exam the the exam requirements. not Not only just the 150 hours, um I think that's the biggest one that a lot of people talk a lot about um because of the economic, um you know, cost to get to that point, ah whether it's another year of school, um whether it's taking out more loans.
00:25:28
Speaker
The other exam requirements is, you know, what type of prep? I mean, I took Becker ah Throw that out there as a, you know, when I was in my last year school, um I was actually the rep on campus so could get it for free because Becker's expensive.
00:25:42
Speaker
So, you know, but you have a lot of students who, those same students who have an issue paying for another year school, but also have an issue paying for um review courses that would help them pass, right?
00:25:53
Speaker
um So I think that And Becker in and other societies, state societies are are starting to get to where they offer um some incentives and some, you know, um promotions to to do that for free. But again, awareness, they have to know that that's a thing and that they can find that.
00:26:09
Speaker
um So I think ex exam requirements, awareness, perception, and honestly, and truthfully, um the last thing that that I feel, again, i haven't completed my case study.
00:26:19
Speaker
I think the field of accounting itself has some systematic challenges on how they deal with race. um You know, ah you, you, I have tiptoe around that with my professors when I'm writing um because people don't like to be called out.
00:26:38
Speaker
um But I think we're in a state of of our society where it's more common practice to talk about it. um And we need to, because I think a lot of what we're seeing is um a lot of diversity, equity and inclusion programs, a lot of diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives.
00:27:00
Speaker
And then five years later, George Floyd happened in 2020. Every single public accounting firm posted a statement on their website right after that on how they are devoted to diversity and equity and inclusion in their firms.
00:27:14
Speaker
That literally is the opening statement in my dissertation. Five years later, what will the numbers look like? that's a little different Yeah, yeah. So at some point, do we stay these initiatives and these programs that we put into place failed? Mm-hmm.
00:27:31
Speaker
Or do we say they weren't set up properly? with there There has to be a conversation on, ah we saying we're doing these programs to just say we're doing them? Are we really really doing these programs in order to increase the numbers of black accountants, right?
00:27:45
Speaker
and and And honestly, if you had the right intent and you just haven't gotten there, then those programs need to be revamped. um I think a lot of... um issues we're having now is a lot of that's being reversed.
00:28:00
Speaker
You know, we've got some government things, some legislation where, you know, you can't have organizations that only support black accountants or other black students because, you know, that's almost reverse racism. So there's a fight ahead.
00:28:15
Speaker
um So the to me, those three things are big. um I want to go to the research and to to the literature and find out what are those numbers? Like since these DEI programs came into play, how many um black um candidates have been hired or, you know, I can't find a lot of that.
00:28:37
Speaker
And I read something by Anton Lewis who actually said, it makes no sense that the industry that deals with complex numbers all time all day and all the time will give you the statement that, oh, it's too complicated for us to report out our true diversity numbers. You can see numbers in women all day long because it's going up. you know um you your Diversity and inclusion for women is improving, um but it's very, very hard um to get numbers on, you know well, what are your black numbers looking like? What have your... you know
00:29:13
Speaker
your Hispanic numbers looking like. So um and I think that's because it's a hard conversation. So when you and I know you're you're talking about minorities and you're talking about diversity. yeah And we when I think about that and I remember being in college.
00:29:29
Speaker
I was the only one in the class. OK, was going to have to rethink that. Well, I thought about not doing it because. it's ah It wasn't easy. Yeah.
00:29:40
Speaker
OK. And you have to have and an aptitude and and a desire to do it. And I'm like, do I really want this? and Can I go do something else? Because I thought about computer science. I thought about some other things.
00:29:51
Speaker
um so when I think about that number and I'm talking about how this translates over to folks being in the firm. right You were only one in your class. I was only one in my class. How many people are going to be first year accounting professionals?
00:30:06
Speaker
I don't be that many of us. Right. So I started thinking about that. And then I started thinking about some of the other things. If you don't look like me in the firm, it's hard for me to really understand, you know, what opportunity exists for me at the firm. Right. If I'm the only one the firm and I was in a situation where I was only one at a firm. Right. So saying that, I mean,
00:30:29
Speaker
And I'm thinking about that fight and I'm thinking about and my apologies for being a salesperson. i'm thinking, i when do I start selling this profession and when will it matter? Because right now, the way it looks, I think there's still only one or two. I've talked to my son. How many were in your class that look like you? Right.
00:30:48
Speaker
He said two. You I'm like, well, that really hadn't changed. yeah So a lot of what you're saying absolutely makes sense. But a lot of it is we just i just don't see, even if it's there. Mm hmm.
00:31:01
Speaker
You know, the ones that do graduate and they opt out of ah the CPA component of it. Right. I mean, that's that's possible. Yeah. And I and the reason I bring that up, because I think about how many black partners we expect to be at the very top.
00:31:17
Speaker
Right. Of a firm. And ah you and I know it goes up like this. percent. So if there's one percent. You know, it's a small percentage, but that's representative of those that probably entered, right you know, and worked their way up and was with the firm for that 15 years and get to that level.
00:31:35
Speaker
um I'm saying all that to say, I don't know if the the numbers add up. Right. Yeah. and how do you get past that? Right. So it's a lot of literature on mentorship, um you know, and and and being able to see people in that position. You know i have nine students um from my chapter of NABBA that are um at the NABBA conference.
00:31:57
Speaker
And a lot of them are overwhelmed and surprised by, you know, all four of those guys on stage were partners, you know, because, you know, in in the real world, you know, like you said, a firm may have won. Right. You know, then the small three three three states over there's there's another one with one. um So, you know, I think and that's where especially i feel the need to give back. Right.
00:32:22
Speaker
those of us who have aspired to get to that level have to, it's it's sad, you have to say, you've got to do the work, you know, you've got to kind of bring everybody up with you. um But they've got to see you, right? You've you've got to be visible.
00:32:36
Speaker
um But you've you've got a point, right? It's it's got to be representative. If if we have 1% going in at the first year, then, you know, 20 years from now, there's only going to be 1% at partner.
00:32:48
Speaker
um So now that we have 2%, you know, going in at the first year, you know, and and I guess we just have to inch, inch every year, but you know, at at some point there's gotta be an instance where,
00:33:01
Speaker
we're saying we've reached the middle school age, right? So that that first year is not one, one in your class, two in mine, it's 10 of 30, you know?
00:33:12
Speaker
um and and and that's that's interesting, right? You know, a lot of programs focus on high school age children. um I think you've got to take it back a step and and and talk to them at a much younger age.
00:33:24
Speaker
Because when I say awareness and perception, it's, Number one, do they even know anything about it? Are they aware? And number two, if they are aware, their awareness could be black people don't do that.
00:33:36
Speaker
You know, that's not in my group of friends. You know, we're trying to choose what major to be. And, you know, like accountants, you know, why do you want to be an accountant? Nobody's nobody's an accountant. Right.
00:33:48
Speaker
So we've got to we've got to figure out a way to change that as well. and And that's why I mentioned early on human capital. yeah And I see the void and I see the one, the 2% minority. But I also see ah gap when it comes to resources and 150 and what makes sense, you know, to make sure that we are creating opportunity for CPAs.
00:34:13
Speaker
Yeah, want as many a folks that look like me to make it. and Okay. But I also know the profession suffering today. Right. And what do we do? So when I say that, when i went and and this is what I want your opinion on, because when I speak to just human capital right and the urgency And I know what we're trying to get at when we say diverse, but how do you feel about just a human capital need?
00:34:38
Speaker
Right. And, you know, doing what we need to do as a government, doing what we need to do as big four, doing what we need to do as various organizations to make that happen. Right.
00:34:49
Speaker
Right. and And make sure that we're, we're focused on diversity too, because I think that's part of it. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. You know, it's, No matter what you look like, we've got to have ah a body and a chair, um you know, and I think the profession itself um is an old one.
00:35:09
Speaker
Right. um And I think we have to evolve. Right. So what we talk about today, how can we make changes today? you know, what can we do today? um You know, i think within our organizations.
00:35:22
Speaker
We've got to allow those who want to do. do Right. um You've got a lot of. To get this job, you have to have a bachelor's degree and and it has to be in accounting. And i mean, we've got to look at changing some of those things as well, right?
00:35:41
Speaker
um You know, we've got, i know I've spoke with someone um over the last couple of weeks that's very passionate about the junior college route and how um a lot of jobs can be filled um with folks on a path, right, to a bachelor's degree.
00:35:57
Speaker
um And I think it's it comes from the top. Right. You know, we've got these firms and the big four, i think, are doing a great job of getting the word out about we need bodies.
00:36:11
Speaker
They're recruiting at the sophomore level in college, which blows my mind. um You know, they're they're they're recruiting early. They're recruiting at the freshman level, by the way. Well, the sophomore level. If you graduate your freshman year, then you're available for an internship. Exactly. Right.
00:36:26
Speaker
Right. So a lot of the um interns are incoming sophomores, which blows my Which means you can do the work. right Right. That's true. That's true. But it just blows my mind knowing that, you know, we we fought and scraped and and competed to get internships that junior year leading to your senior year.
00:36:45
Speaker
um You know, I think they've got to continue to do things like that and also being visible um outside of. the accounting work.
00:36:56
Speaker
Right. So, you know, if if if we've got a football game, we've got a professional team, you know, I need Deloitte be sponsors or some of that kind of stuff to be able to just attract people to what is that? Let me Google it on my phone.
00:37:11
Speaker
um And I've started to see a little bit of that just overall um awareness of the profession. Right. Because to your point, You know, it may take 15 years to get diversified numbers.
00:37:22
Speaker
um But if we get to the point to where we have audit clients and we don't have staff to handle the audit, that's that's a big problem. You know, I was one of the the students that started at junior college.
00:37:33
Speaker
I was the military. Okay. Junior college was available to me. So I started at junior college. Then I went to a four-year, and then I finished with my master's. Later, much later, later in information technology management.
00:37:45
Speaker
um And the reason I put that out there, because my first year of actually doing accounting work, was really? Really? and And that's just my attitude, my energy. I'm like, I waited all this time and I did all the studies to do this. It's adding as attractive.
00:38:00
Speaker
I couldn't figure this out. There's something wrong with that. Yeah. But and not a down on the profession, but I think a lot of the work can be done. Yeah. Yeah.
00:38:10
Speaker
And you don't need to have a four year degree to do it. and So I agree with all that. So when I when I say. And i'm going to shift gears a bit because I want to put this question out in front of you, yeah because I think opportunity is what we need in this profession for our people. A little shift from the 150. Yeah.
00:38:28
Speaker
So when I think when I think about the the space in the room and and making sure we're accommodating diverse individuals. Right. What else should we do? Because you've heard of a seat it seat it at the table and you've also heard of, OK, the table needs to be bigger. And this is not mine. There are people smarter to me that have put this out there. yeah What do you think when I say that? What burn what comes to mind?
00:38:52
Speaker
That's a good question. um
00:38:56
Speaker
You know, i think when we say the the cliche seat at the table, table needs to be bigger. I want a side plate at the table. You know, there's there's those things there. But I think it goes back to what I said earlier. It's.
00:39:12
Speaker
I don't want a proverbial seat. I think we have to really have folks that are not only the face of this particular people, but you need the workers. like you need if if if If I'm going to have a seat at the table um and and and you're gonna listen to my opinions, then i want some work behind that opinion.
00:39:39
Speaker
Right. So, you know what? Everyone has one. Right. Everyone's got an opinion. um But there's got to be a think tank. Right. So if if there's 10 of us and we all think something different, then there has to be a way to get to a commonality.
00:39:53
Speaker
Maybe not for all 10, but there's got to be a way of saying, you know, this is an option. And we've got to honestly try some things.
00:40:04
Speaker
You know, um i think there's we spend a lot of time um contemplating a lot of time um um building plans. And I say that and I'm a project manager by trade. and That's what I do. But we spend a lot of time building plans that you lose the time for the execution.
00:40:20
Speaker
um So I think that there's got to be a um a catalyst. and and And I'm thinking of the IT sector as an example.
00:40:31
Speaker
um I did another paper on how the IT industry said, you know, you don't need a bachelor's degree to to work in IT. t um and and And people are like, what? You know, we have all these people with these degrees. need certification of some sort. I know that. Exactly. Right.
00:40:46
Speaker
um But when they dropped that requirement, a lot of people... got certifications and and this happened right before COVID. A lot of people got certifications and they were able to fill jobs left and right.
00:41:00
Speaker
um and and And by that, as an example, as a model, they were able to get people in quickly. People were able to do focused work. And it it's ah it's it filled the supply that was there.
00:41:13
Speaker
So again, we've got the CPA exam for accountants that gets you that grand certification in the profession. Maybe there needs to be some think tanks on a particular certification that is something that you can get a lot faster. Right. I mean, I'm on the fly thinking of that. Right.
00:41:29
Speaker
So if you if you have certifications and things like I.T. where and I'm so dated on what is is is there is that C++ plus plus anymore, I'm sure. But you know it's no longer COBOL. Right. I don't know. But if you have people that specialize in those things and they're able to do specific roles related to that need, then I think in an accounting firm, just as easily you can have folks that can do specific roles.
00:41:53
Speaker
um You know, um and we're seeing where the firms are hiring more people with IT degrees um as such to do certain certain jobs. So, I mean, that's that that that was a good question. I hadn't thought about it, but I really think that there's something that.
00:42:07
Speaker
can be done and can be done quickly to put bodies in chairs you know i have this is my last question by the way and it's more in line with the audience in as a leader as a professional as an accomplished individual within corporate what's your word of advice for them what is that one thing that one nugget that you want to share with this audience as it relates to you know success and and in this profession yeah that's a good one i think success is what you define, right?
00:42:39
Speaker
um So many, and this has nothing to do with accounting, but so many people say, I wanna be that when I grow up. And what is that, right? It's what you see on the exterior. Again, it's your perception.
00:42:52
Speaker
um When I interview new hires, It's my icebreaker, always say. So what do you want to be when you grow up? um And a lot of them are taken off guard. They don't know what But honestly, your success is how you define it.
00:43:06
Speaker
um You know, I felt like for me, um i wanted to be a partner. wanted to be a partner in an accounting firm. Why? i took an accounting class, loved it. I'm a big numbers person.
00:43:19
Speaker
um But I wanted to achieve the highest. Had no idea what a partner did. You know, I was 18, 19 years old. It's a different kind of business, by the way. Exactly. I've been a partner.
00:43:31
Speaker
so i know And I don't think I want to be a partner. um i don't I didn't even go into public accounting initially, you know, and it's it's it's I want to be the best me. Right. And what do I have to offer?
00:43:43
Speaker
um and And for me, it was i i work very well with people. I develop people well. um And I just went the corporate path. um I still, you know, had my my um certification, but that was success for me.
00:43:55
Speaker
Right. um I want to teach um because to me, that's imparting to others. So I'm kind of in limbo of, you know, once I'm done here with this degree, am I going to make a shift? But that's how I define my success.
00:44:10
Speaker
And I think that. We have to impart that to the youth that what they want, they need to be very specific and go after that um as opposed to putting up flashcards of lawyers, doctors, you know, what do you know what is success for you?
00:44:27
Speaker
So I think it has to be um personal.
00:44:32
Speaker
Now we transition to hear from Crystal Cook's perspective. She digs into what the 150-hour rule could look like in the future in light of potential changes in the accounting degree programs and the profession's changing needs. I am so happy to have a good friend of mine, Crystal Cook, join us today with the AICPA.
00:44:53
Speaker
You're very accomplished individual, Crystal. I thank you so much for making you know that's a priority on your schedule because I know you're very busy. um All I can say about you, I know you're a wonderful person because I've had many ah conversations with you.
Diversity and Inclusion Efforts by AICPA
00:45:07
Speaker
And I know you're passionate it on about diversity, equity, and inclusion. But there's certain things that I don't know about you and you may want to share with the audience. So I'll open the floor for you to do that. Yes, thank you. And yes, Chris, you are one of my friends as well. So thank you for having me today. um So just a little about myself.
00:45:26
Speaker
ah My pronouns are she, her. um I always, for those who may only be able to listen to this podcast, podcast today. I am an African-American woman.
00:45:37
Speaker
I have latte brown skin, is what I like to call it. i have curly hair. It's short on the sides, long at the top. It's a little frizzy now because it's hot as all get out outside.
00:45:49
Speaker
um I have light highlights throughout. um Today, I'm wearing a jean jacket with a black shirt underneath. I have on these cute co cat eye glasses that have animal print, brown and black on them.
00:46:06
Speaker
um And i am sitting at my home office in Bowie, Maryland. um A little about me. I like to bring people in to meet me a little bit.
00:46:17
Speaker
I am a mom of two boys, teenagers, 15 and 13. Pray for me. I need it every day. um i am a sister of two brothers.
00:46:27
Speaker
So one older, one younger. I'm a middle child, so I'm special, I like to say. um i have many aunt i have many nieces and nephews. um I am a loyal, loyal friend.
00:46:42
Speaker
I'm from the great state of Ohio, but I told you earlier, I'm here in Bowie, Maryland. And so um I'm super competitive. I have a mantra that's my um that I always like to say that I've carried through my career is whatever room you get in or whatever space you're in, leave it better than you found it.
00:46:59
Speaker
So that's a little bit about me to start us off. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. You know, and trying to figure out what the topic would be for today and my years that I've served within diversity, equity, and inclusion. One thing I know, it's not an easy job.
00:47:13
Speaker
know okay So I thank you for your service in this area because it is needed. And I also know how passionate the AICPA is about diversity and equity and and inclusion.
00:47:24
Speaker
What does that really mean when I bring that up? Because I know in my own head, I'm thinking that it is changing. I've seen it you know, noted as being wellness and some other things. But in your mind, what is DEI now today for the ANCPA as well as for you So first, I'll say that I don't think it's changing per se I think how we call it or what we label it to make it less polarizing, to make it feel more welcoming, that might be changing.
00:47:58
Speaker
But me, ah my DEI colleagues and i we are all doing the same work and we all have the same goals. And we are trying to work together to short to ensure that this profession is diverse, equitable, and inclusive.
00:48:12
Speaker
And that means a place for everyone, a place that any no matter what your background is, you have a place to thrive in this profession. You feel welcomed. You feel valued.
00:48:24
Speaker
You feel like you can grow here and be here for as long as you choose to be here. We want you to feel like this is a place where I need to be. And so how do we create an environment where that exists?
00:48:36
Speaker
And how do we bring those from entry level who may not even know what accounting is, but know all the different things that you can do in accounting? People who look like me, people who have a diverse background, who may not have had access to what this career is. How do we make them realize that this could this could be a life changing career for them?
00:48:57
Speaker
And make it so that they find their place all the way through the pipeline is what we call it, the pipeline of all way up until career, ah into the C-suite. It could be wherever you want to be in the organization, could go there.
00:49:11
Speaker
And you see people who look like you there and you feel like you belong. So that's, it's a... There's many ways to describe what it means, but that's essentially what it means. And we, my team at the AICPA and SEMA, we work to create resources, um provide training, um opportunities to collaborate.
00:49:33
Speaker
we We do all kinds of things. We focus in four primary areas, which are ethnic diversity, gender, so women, LGBTQ+, and then we have an emerging professionals focus area, which is early career professionals.
00:49:49
Speaker
And those are not the only elements of diversity. We realize that. There are probably thousands of elements of diversity, but we can't boil the ocean. So we pick those primary ones. There's intersectionalities among them all, but um we focus on those and we do weave in the other elements of diversity where we can, but we feel like that is where The major change or growth needs to happen in those areas. And that's where we're focusing our um our efforts at the moment.
00:50:17
Speaker
I hope that answers your question. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, one thing that comes to mind, and I ask this question often, and I think about the success that you've had. One, you're critical role. You're a direct level person.
00:50:28
Speaker
Very accomplished within corporate, the corporate framework. How'd you get there? i mean, what's your what's the recipe for your success? Oh, gosh. So... i my journey is probably a little different, I think, because I, um when I, I graduated with an ac accounting degree, so i I do have an accounting background.
00:50:50
Speaker
um And i it's kind of funny, because, you know, back when I graduated, we're not going to get into years, but when I graduated, people were like, you just go into the big, maybe it was eight at that time. but um And then you go get your job, you go there a few years or whatever. And so I told myself,
00:51:11
Speaker
ah I know what's best for me. I'm going to skip that part and just go where everybody goes after that. So I went into internal audit first. um It wasn't necessarily my jam.
00:51:22
Speaker
I didn't really find the the experience to be one that could sustain me in internal audit. So I then ended up right back where I thought I wasn't going to be at one of the large firms and I went to KPMG. And so I went to KPMG and I was there for seven years.
00:51:39
Speaker
And um I didn't realize it, but I was living the DEI journey that whole time I was there. I was being put in rooms where I was the only one and learning how to navigate things.
00:51:51
Speaker
I was having to work in situations that were unique for me only. There were all these things that I was doing, but I think um I got to a point at KPMG where I couldn't go any further. So i don't have my CPA license.
00:52:07
Speaker
A lot of people don't know that, but I never got it because of several reasons. But one being, i had came from a background where you go to school,
00:52:19
Speaker
yeah No, you graduate high school, you go to college, you get a job, you grind, you don't come back home. Like this is what I was always instilled in me. I don't think they meant it so matter of factly, but that's how I heard it.
00:52:33
Speaker
And so that's what I did. And I was fighting to make sure I did that. And so when I graduated, I started working. I wasn't even thinking about CPA and all that. I was like, first of all, I like, I need money first.
00:52:44
Speaker
So I was doing all of that. And then All of a sudden came this CPA exam that I needed to focus on and I was working, I was doing all these things, and it just became a battle that I couldn't overcome at that time.
00:52:57
Speaker
And when I talk to students today, to this day, I tell them, find a mentor to walk you through this. That's what I think I was missing. I didn't have someone to say, hey, this is what the journey to CPA looks like.
00:53:10
Speaker
This is what you should do. Maybe pause at this moment and to focus on the CPA exam before you start lifing, because then this is not going to happen. um there's I didn't have that kind of guidance and structure in my life. So even though I don't have it, it's probably one of my biggest regrets.
00:53:25
Speaker
um I know I can still go back and get it, Becker. I'm sure you're telling me that. Let me see. I know that's that option is there for me, and I will keep you in mind. um But I will say that i i didn't find the the pathway. was It wasn't there for me at the time.
00:53:44
Speaker
And I was so, so beat up about it because I was like, man, I'm type of person that failure at that point was like not an option. Like I just didn't know how to take that. I considered that failure.
00:53:56
Speaker
Today, now I know that was the design path for me, right? I know that there's a, I know that the profession can take me in many, many pathways. And that's another thing I try to tell students, don't get so stuck on what this journey is supposed to be.
00:54:11
Speaker
Your journey is your journey. And frankly, I'm a little bit, I'm a religious woman. It's my parents' fault. But I always tell them, your path is literally already designed for you, right? You just need to follow it and make the choices. There are no wrong choices, and especially in this career.
00:54:26
Speaker
And so I realize that now. At the time, I did it. And so i own So i I ended up at KP&G for seven years. I couldn't go anymore. And then I left and went to, and yeah and this is, again, I told you it's a little religious.
00:54:42
Speaker
Jobs came to me without me even having to look for them. To me, that's defined path already, right? And so, and that's the man above looking out for me. And so Center for Equality came to me.
00:54:56
Speaker
right And so Center for Equality is a an organization that supports public company audit. um I would ended up being there for 12 years. And that job kept me in the accounting profession, but that's where I started working on talent, doing a little bit of dabbling in governance.
00:55:14
Speaker
um I ended up meeting Barry Melanson and Sue Coffey, my now boss, is there. So again, things were happening for to me for a reason. i did not realize it, but i they were.
00:55:25
Speaker
And all the foundation was being laid. Fast forward 12 years, my predecessor, Kim Drungo, who I think you may even remember Kim Drungo, she moved on, she was in this role.
00:55:38
Speaker
um She moved on and i like to say, she lifted as she climbed for us NABA members. um And she came and told and told me about her position and said, yeah, I think this is a great next step for you. And actually at the CAQ, the part of my talent work is where I started dipping into the DEI space.
00:55:57
Speaker
and that And I really was like, you know what? That is the work I'm most passionate about. That's where I feel like I can make a change. That's where I feel like I can have a stamp on something. And so I said, I'm going to try it.
00:56:08
Speaker
I applied. um And I think it may have helped that I knew Barry already. I knew Sue already from my work at CAQ. I kind of worked with Kim Drungle already. So I'm sure that helped me a little bit.
00:56:21
Speaker
um And i like to say I got the position. And I've been in this role since 2020. And so that's kind of how it all, make I know that was a long story, but there were pieces along the way. And I always say, this is where I'm supposed to be, no matter what happened.
00:56:38
Speaker
I think, i don't think I was supposed to get that CPA exam. I was supposed to be here. Um, Not to say that I don't, I definitely encourage everyone to still get it because you never want a reason to say anyone to say no to you.
00:56:51
Speaker
And now, and I think it's, it propels you above. It definitely, I've seen that in my career. It's out, it's staying, it puts you above the rest. It's an elitist group that you want to be a part of And so I do encourage, I just was talking to students yesterday and telling them my story, used me as a lesson.
00:57:12
Speaker
make sure you do it. was like, you once you graduate, you will be powerful with that those three letters behind your name. So that is kind of my story. And how i and i and even despite all that, the profession has been great to me.
00:57:27
Speaker
And i I love where i even though I didn't go that route, I have still, i consider myself still successful, still winning. um And so my like my theme song for ah myself is, you know, DJ Khaled's All I do is win, win, win.
00:57:46
Speaker
That's my song that I always play to remind myself, you are still winning. You are still doing good. And that's what this profession can give to you as an individual. So I can't like a saying on this, but whatever.
00:57:59
Speaker
No worries. yeah One question that comes to mind, and I think when we think about the profession and the state of the profession, I hear quite often there's a war for talent. There's a war for accounting talent. Why is that?
00:58:12
Speaker
You know, what does that mean to you when I say it's a war for talent, but counting folks that join the profession and just continue the success that we've already had? Why that? So there's several reasons. So the population of the world is decreasing as whole. There are...
00:58:29
Speaker
um there are I can't remember the exact stats, but there was a stat that shows that there are not enough people to fill the jobs that we have open right now.
00:58:42
Speaker
um And so then there's, you know, immigration is changing to where we can't get talent from there. So we are all fighting for the same people. And there aren't enough people to fill all these open jobs.
00:58:56
Speaker
And so I think that's why they say it's a war because we're like, and when it goes into the people who are diverse, it's even smaller of a pool. So we are all trying to get the best of the best and trying to um show all of our benefits, all of our, what makes us better than them. And so I think that's why, and there's, you know, and then for accounting,
00:59:20
Speaker
I think going into four-year school now, even that parents are like, is that even the the best choice for me? Should I start my kids out at a trade school instead? And should I do all these other things? And so we are all battling with all those things.
00:59:36
Speaker
And the profession is is not going anywhere. We need people to fill this profession and sustain the profession. And so we have to put the accounting in a in a light, in a position to show why they should choose us over any other career.
00:59:53
Speaker
And that that's a battle. And that's what we have to figure out how to do as a whole.
Addressing Talent Shortage and Pipeline Strategies
00:59:59
Speaker
You know, when I think about the human capital equation and I think about the transformational exercise and I think specific to this profession, yeah we trying to we are trying to figure out know what that solution looks like. And you've got the ATA doing that. You've got the CAQ that's doing that. You've got the universities doing it.
01:00:18
Speaker
Are you working together? Because I know there are things going on behind the scenes. Is there a lot understanding? And how is that? How are you working together? Yeah, we are we are definitely working together, um but I think it also, i think it takes us working together and separated. I think we all have a role.
01:00:38
Speaker
Like to scale this work, we all need to be doing, we all need to be in high schools. We can come together to go in high schools, but it'd be better if we divided and conquer.
01:00:49
Speaker
So I think there is, we come together in approach and strategy, but we all can go in execution in our different ways. And so um for instance,
01:01:00
Speaker
I think all of us have come together on this pipeline challenge. Like we ah we all know, like we need to put our heads together and figure this out. How are we going to change? There's so many things that are, I mentioned um to someone the other day, I can't remember, like, there are so many ah challenges that we have to overcome. There is not just one. There's no silver bullet that we can say, yes, this is going to fix everything.
01:01:25
Speaker
We need to, there are so many things on so many tracks. The academic community has certain things that they can do. We at the AICPA on the regulatory side and on the CPA exam side, we have things that we need to do.
01:01:39
Speaker
The workforce has things that they need to do. And then we all need to come together and figure out how to leverage each other to be successful for the greater good. So I think um through organizations like, um are actually all of our member organizations at the AICPA are full of our member committees.
01:01:58
Speaker
We have all different expertises on there from all different backgrounds. We engage with the academic community. We have firms on there. We have state societies on there. So, I mean,
01:02:09
Speaker
That is how we work. We cannot work in a silo. We need to work with everyone. um I know the National Pipeline Advisory Group was recently created with hope with disciplines from all different areas in the accounting profession to come up with strategies for how to overcome the pipeline the pipeline challenge that we are having.
01:02:28
Speaker
that's one good way of how we're coming together. And I know in part two of that, we're bringing in AAA, we're bringing in diversity partner organizations. Like we all know, like we could not do this in isolation. So um i think I think we know that now, it's now it's into the how and the doing and the action.
01:02:49
Speaker
You know, another thing that comes to mind is the requirements to be a CPA. Yes. And you've got 150 hours. And I know that's sensitive. It's sensitive.
01:02:59
Speaker
It should be. I think it's a something that we all need to be um paying attention to and looking at. But yes, continue your question. You know, when i when I think about the skill set that's required and what I mean is it's hard to determine from a transformational perspective where this profession is headed.
01:03:17
Speaker
I deliver solutions across a lot of different areas on the advisory front, and I know a different skill set is required. And it's hard to put a finger on what that skill set looks like.
01:03:28
Speaker
For those that are training right now in school, okay, and then trying to figure out, hey, Does the firm know what skillset they're looking for? Does corporate know what skillset that they need in order for me to be successful?
01:03:41
Speaker
And I won't even sprinkle in AI, because that is really changing the total landscape when it comes to what that the tools that person needs to have in order to be successful in the profession. So when I say this, what what keeps you up when I'm talking about that skillset and how we should be working together and make the most and the best of it?
01:04:02
Speaker
So there's there's a couple of things there. So I think the, um as far as the, but let's go back to the 150 you mentioned. i think,
01:04:15
Speaker
so The future, i think, is I think the most important important thing that we need to be looking at is how do we ensure that these students, when they graduate, after they are you know certified and everything, that they are ready and educated to perform at these at their workplace, wherever that may be.
01:04:37
Speaker
um I know we do a lot of talk about 150, all these kinds of things, but there's talk about universities going to a 90 credit hour undergraduate degree. 150 would be irrelevant at that point. Like, I mean, I think we need to figure out, we don't know what the number is. I think we should shift this discussion from numbers and start talking about competencies, which is what the National Pipeline Advisory Group recommended and I fully support.
01:05:05
Speaker
And it's because I hear that people are coming into the workplace and the firms have to re-teach them everything. Or, and they have to help them back to the reach, teach them basic accounting as well as what they have to do for that workplace.
01:05:20
Speaker
And so how do we ensure that whether they, when they graduate and if it's 90 hours, Whatever that takes, how many hours does it take? Let's not even go to hours. How many competencies and whatever that is, does it take for them to be ready to work?
01:05:36
Speaker
And for someone, they can get it in 90 hours. For someone else, they may need 160 hours. But what is that? And how do we create a model that they're ready for that? And I know that that there's also, to your other point, the new version of the CPA exam.
01:05:52
Speaker
CPA evolution is what they have been calling that. That was meant to evolve the exam for this new CPA, right? And you may be a IT t technology-based CPA. You may want to focus on audit. You may want to that way now it's a broader type of CPA that we can, we can, um,
01:06:15
Speaker
accept. And I think that whole point is because we don't know where evolution is going. The CPA exam is evolving. We know that the profession is evolving.
01:06:26
Speaker
We need more non-CPAs. We need more CPAs who do IT. t We need more CPAs with other expertises, but it's a CPA and.
01:06:37
Speaker
Like, we need to bring all those in. And so, I think the skill sets, like it and and when students come to me and they say, what should I be taking? What should i what should put me ahead? I always say, do anything in IT. t Add some IT work to your resume. If you want to, some people want to minor in IT, great. Do what you have to do. I think that is what, that will totally help you go far in the profession, um especially where everything's going. and And people are afraid of AI, but to me, I'm like, AI is scary to me from a diversity standpoint, because at the end of the day,
01:07:14
Speaker
it's a human being who's creating that AI program. And that's going to be biased in that program still. And if we aren't checking the system in some kind of way, like a human brain checking the system, how do we know that it's still not calculated to be biased?
01:07:29
Speaker
So i'm I'm just, I'm a little leery of that and AI fully being able to pick things for us and do all that. I think there still needs to be some human element in there. And so um even though it's going to be a huge part of the workforce, I'm sure, but I feel like, especially in accounting, I think we still need that human skepticism.
01:07:54
Speaker
that we have in this profession. so that's kind of my my insight on those two things. Yeah, when I think about AI and being a part of the equation, and i don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole, but what I do know is that someone needs to audit ai I do know what happens today. There's no firm out there that are you using it as a tool that don't have the ability to audit it. And I think that's front and center for a lot of organizations. And To the point you made earlier, that skill set is a unique skill set.
01:08:23
Speaker
who on and It's you can have an analytical aptitude for it, but it also requires that you understand code. Yeah. requires that you be comfortable with technology.
01:08:34
Speaker
And they're it's a unique skill set. So as we're lining up these folks and we're trying to figure out these 90 hours and we're figure out whatever those competencies will look like, I know that's part of it.
01:08:47
Speaker
It's just a unique skill set. So we just need to define that better. yep you know one thing i want to spend some time on because i you know i'm concerned about folk that look like me that's just me yeah what do we do about that i mean how do we beef up that pipeline i know i've heard a lot of things about you know we need to go down to certain levels of education and and start talking about it but i think it's a different and conversation to be quiet yeah yeah so For me, I know everyone's talking about pipeline. Everyone's talking about 150. They think all these are the reasons that are going to fix the profession and get more people of color in them.
01:09:23
Speaker
To me, that's not it. but That's not it at all. To me, it's fixing home. To me, it's fixing the workplace now. It's fixing our retention. Why can't we get them to stay?
01:09:36
Speaker
Right. And so how would we expect somebody who is diverse to enter our profession if they don't see anyone like them in it? And if they don't see a person to aspire to, they don't see a leader that they can talk to.
01:09:52
Speaker
They don't see I'm a strong believer in seeing is believing. And if it's not there, And they don't the people aren't staying because they don't feel welcome or they feel like it's not a good fit. like That is what we need to work on.
01:10:06
Speaker
um I think culture, um value, sense of belonging, um finding a way to keep people in our workplaces where they feel like they can thrive, where they have a voice, where they can have a seat, like we're a place where people are going to make room for them to sit and they want to hear their voice.
01:10:26
Speaker
That is why i think we have a challenge of keeping diversity in the profession. Now, people always say, well, we need to bring more people. And I'm like, to what though? To What are we bringing them into?
01:10:38
Speaker
Is it a place where they feel like they can grow and thrive? And, you know, I say you don't ever invite anybody into your house until you clean it up, right? So that's kind of the, that's what I think is is a big part of the problem.
01:10:55
Speaker
People don't want to come in the profession if they don't see the value of being there. They aren't even going to want to sit for the exam if they don't even see, why i why should I become a CPA? Why do i what's the value of me doing this?
01:11:08
Speaker
And where will I work? and And where do i where will I call home? And so those are the things that i feel contribute to seeing less of us there. um us, you and I, us.
01:11:21
Speaker
um And I will also say on the pipeline side of the early pipeline, our research shows that people of color and frankly, this is for anybody, but more so people of color, they don't know about accounting.
01:11:38
Speaker
The only reason they hear about accounting is through a school teacher. It's along the way they they had a school where they took accounting or they had a little intro to bookkeeping or something. That's how they learn.
01:11:50
Speaker
Or they have a family member or a family friend who is a CPA or an accountant or whatever. Those are the two primary reasons why anyone hears about accounting. And if you're diverse person, Most of us don't have accounting in our in our circle of influence.
01:12:08
Speaker
um And they don't have school and our, some of our affluent schools don't have accounting classes. My son's high school doesn't have an a accounting class. And there are many non-affluent schools that are in non-affluent areas who can't afford some of their basic programming. They're not going to have an accounting class.
01:12:27
Speaker
So they're not getting any exposure to accounting. um And so, we're missing a whole diverse group of people on the very, very start who aren and don't even have accounting on the radar.
01:12:40
Speaker
And so when we start doing all this outreach and we start, you know, we've, AICPA has started this whole accounting opportunities experience program where we are cha working with state societies to get people in the classrooms, high schools, to start sharing the word spreading the word about what accounting is, how great of a career it is, those kind of things. And so that I think is step one. But in that, we need to make sure that we are going to diverse schools as well.
01:13:11
Speaker
um And we need to make sure that we are, or are diversely populated schools. And I think that bringing that awareness and catching them early. Some people are even saying middle school and elementary school.
01:13:23
Speaker
We need to go back even further um so that they're, before they start hearing about all the the different things. But I think it'll too, it'll also help with STEM. I know AICPA is working to get um accounting in STEM under the T in technology, not STEAM. I know I keep hearing people say it's going to be STEAM, but it's going to be the T in technology.
01:13:43
Speaker
That'll help to get finance and everything in the classrooms too. But I think that's where I think the the pitfalls are for diverse communities is that high school or getting that awareness the early level and then making them feel like this is a career that they can see themselves in.
Navigating Challenges and Career Ownership
01:14:01
Speaker
and And those are the but of the two major things. And I think also those people that are in the career who don't like it and leave for whatever reason, they're sharing those bad stories with the pipeline.
01:14:14
Speaker
So they're hearing it and they're like, oh, I don't want to that. Like, so we got to give people good experiences that they can share. Like that's that's part of it, too. And so anyway, I'll keep going on and on.
01:14:27
Speaker
So when you go back, go back in your career when you first entered. but Yes. Yes. You didn't see as many people that look like you. um No, I did not.
01:14:39
Speaker
Well, I can say I'm in D.C., so I probably saw more than most people. can remember going back to my my college days and I'm looking around the room. Yes. when Only woman, only black woman, all of that. Yep.
01:14:54
Speaker
So how'd you make it work? Because i don't I don't know if there was a dedicated program. There was the whole challenge for equity and yeah ah you know African-American versus Latino. There wasn't. That was not an initiative like that. No. No.
01:15:09
Speaker
So to be clear, I'm still in rooms where I'm the only... but Just to be clear. but I'm used to it now. And I think what um what prepared me for it, and I think it's it's my parents. I actually grew up, I told you they're from Ohio. I grew up in Ohio.
01:15:29
Speaker
And I was in this town called Westerville, Ohio. And there we were the only Black family in my neighborhood. wow and And so I grew up that way.
01:15:39
Speaker
And my school had... I think maybe 6%, maybe 9% Black. I don't know. It was a very small percentage of diverse people there. So I got used to navigating in that situation.
01:15:52
Speaker
I know a lot of people can't afford, don't have that ability, but i don't know that I don't know that my dad realized that he was setting me up. Maybe he did. He's a super smart guy. But maybe he realized he was setting me up to prepare me for life.
01:16:05
Speaker
um But I learned how to navigate things. And I also have this like, I don't know if it's a chip on my shoulder. Maybe my parents taught me this too, but I belong here too.
01:16:16
Speaker
If i I can be here, why why why don't I deserve to be here? And so no one was going to keep me from whatever my blessing was that I wanted to experience from this. And so any room that I was in, i felt like I belonged in that room.
01:16:30
Speaker
And so I kind of navigated that. I always, and I always took the approach of They don't know any better, right? When dealing with different situations, most people would get angry when they were faced with discrimination and things like that.
01:16:47
Speaker
would take it it as a moment to educate. i don't know why I did that, but I just would always do it. Even when it was like an uncomfortable situation, and i would try and make it funny. to make it land better.
01:16:59
Speaker
And was it my responsibility? No, I shouldn't have. They should have educated themselves, but I'm here now. And in order to see change, you got to be a part of the change. So I would go in and I'd be like, oh, that might have been funny for you, but let me tell you how that really feels. And i will always explain things. I always use my, and most times people are like, oh,
01:17:22
Speaker
I'm sorry. i didn't know that was how that was landing. i didn't mean to do that. Or when the senior or when the client comes in, I'm the senior and they go to the staff who is not like me um and assumes that they're in charge. and And they are like, nope, it's her.
01:17:39
Speaker
And I'm like, hi. yeah but I still try to make them feel comfortable and it's okay. Let's keep moving. Like I use those as teachable moments, right? And so that's kind of how I navigated it.
01:17:53
Speaker
I probably experienced a little bit of posture syndrome in my younger days, but once I got to a point of where I was like, look, I'm just as smart as everybody around me. I belong here. I'm going to reap the benefits of this career just like they are.
01:18:07
Speaker
And so I just wanted to make change. And I think that's why this all kind of fits for me, because I kind of I have that attitude. Because to your point, DEI is hard. And it takes a person with a certain kind of attitude to continue to do this every a day.
01:18:23
Speaker
And someone is like, are you optimistic about the future of DEI? was like, I have to be. Like my job, like this requires optimism. Like if I didn't think we could get there, I wouldn't be doing this.
01:18:37
Speaker
And so, um and I see change in people. I see, I've seen movement since I started and that's what makes it all worth it. Like, Each day that's better, like I have more good days than bad days. And while, and long as that continues, I will keep doing this work. And so it's just, it's just a constant grind, a constant battle, but the change and the moments of change makes it worth it.
01:19:05
Speaker
And so, I mean, we're going to keep the good fight. And I think, you know, we got to, cause if not me, then who? You know, one thing I think about in coming up and through the ranks and mentoring a lot of folks that look like me and they say, so how have you been successful? And I'm like, you need to make sure that you're doing putting your best foot forward.
01:19:26
Speaker
There are phenomenal programs out there, and I'm an advocate for these programs, um but it is still your responsibility. You are responsible for your career. So become the best technician. Yep.
01:19:37
Speaker
Show up and be the best version of yourself that you need to be in order to be successful in that framework and be confident. Yes. Yep. You matter. You have a tremendous amount of value. And if you don't project that, then no one else will see it.
01:19:53
Speaker
Absolutely. When I'm thinking about the one thing and I'm i'm wrapping this up. OK. you You bring him in your plane for your landing. Yeah.
01:20:03
Speaker
so So the question I have for you, what's that one thing you want to share with this audience about being successful, about, you know, making smart decisions, whatever it is? What's that one takeaway you want them to have from this this particular conversation?
01:20:22
Speaker
um i think...
01:20:26
Speaker
So i'm gonna I'm gonna lean into, I was like, I told you earlier, I was talking to some students yesterday and it was a speed mentoring thing and they were asking a bunch of questions. And a lot of the questions were like,
01:20:41
Speaker
They were concerned about their pathway, right? They were like, what are my steps that I should be taking? Which are good questions to ask. But i I think what I tried to convey to them, which I'm going to share here as well, is your path is what you want it to be.
01:20:57
Speaker
Right. That's the great part about this profession. I think once you graduate and you get your CPA, i think your destiny is in your hands.
01:21:10
Speaker
You can decide what you want to do. People will tell you a certain pathway. take it with a grain of salt and take it as a suggestion, but not a demand.
01:21:21
Speaker
You still find the fit for you. you There's big four, yes, you will hear, students will hear, you gotta to go into the big four. You don't. AS EPA has 40,000 member firms, all who want that talent.
01:21:36
Speaker
You can find the space where you feel is the bed best culture environment for you to thrive in. I think you if you don't want to go into a firm, you can go into business and industry. You can go into, if you want to be an entrepreneur, what great career what other career sets you up to be had know the ins and outs of your own business, right?
01:21:58
Speaker
So
Embracing Growth and Unity in DEI
01:21:59
Speaker
I think accounting really ties to everything And you can really design your own path and what speaks to you most. So, and enjoy that journey while you're on it.
01:22:10
Speaker
Enjoy every step, get what you're supposed to get out of every step and just kind of, and go from there. You will be okay. You will, know and it won't all be good. There's going to be some bumps.
01:22:24
Speaker
and But life is supposed to have bumps. Bumps and and uncomfortableness and hurdles and failures is growth, is what I say. And so those are the kind of things that, that's things I like to share because if no one told me that along the way. I had to figure it out. um And then for the professional side, i would just say, let's just, you know, let's give each other grace, forget everything in the past and move forward together. Like we really have got to,
01:22:55
Speaker
lock arms in this challenge and start moving forward. We've done a lot of talking, done a lot of research, we've done a lot of, but we're seeing the same, us in this DEI space, Chris, we know we've seen these things over and over again. is time to move to the next level.
01:23:10
Speaker
We keep having these discussions. Let's start acting and let's start being better people. Let's start being more inclusive. Let's start putting people first. let's let's I know I said start. a lot of us were doing it. So continue, make make even stronger efforts so that we can really see some change. I don't want to be on this podcast again in 10 years saying the same thing. I want to say something different. Well, you're welcome to come back.
01:23:36
Speaker
So be a company I want it to be a different discussion. I want it to be, we have killed it. We are now, our numbers are out of the park. Like, yes, CPAs are galore.
01:23:47
Speaker
Yes. this
01:23:50
Speaker
So I just want us to start acting and moving some things forward in this space, especially in the DEI space in this profession. Crystal, you're a good friend, and I do thank you for making the time to be with us today.
01:24:03
Speaker
Yes, I'm so happy. give you your candid openness in this conversation around this topic. I think it it will get better personally, um but it's not going to get better unless we're all working together.
01:24:16
Speaker
And that's what i wanted that's what I want to share with the audience as I close down, is that it's going to take all of us. It's not just an AICPA. a challenge it's a challenge for everyone out there who can make a difference as it relates to diversity equity and inclusion and may just really considering our profession and human capital and what it's going to take in order for us to move forward there's no one formula it may be 90 credit hours it may 150 but i do know we're going to need the talent and we're going to need to put our best foot feet forward in order to be successful so thank you
01:24:48
Speaker
for joining us for another conversation. My name is Christopher Mitchell. I'm excited to, as always to host this and I'm looking forward to the next conversation. So have a good day.