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Balancing the Future Ep. 21 - What It Takes: Success from Technical to Personal with Sam Johnson
243 Plays21 days ago
Our host, Chris Mitchell, engages in a compelling conversation with Sam Johnson, seasoned executive and former Vice Chair at EY. Sam shares insights from his journey to becoming a leader in public accounting, emphasizing foundational technical skills, continuous learning, and adaptivity for career advancement. He reflects on the value of relationships, and inspires professionals at all levels to invest in personal growth and mentorship.
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Transcript
Introduction to Sam Johnson
00:00:09
Speaker
Thank you for joining us on another conversation on balancing the future. I am excited to have Sam Johnson. Now look here, I can't do Sam justice by trying to explain all that he's done throughout his career, but I can tell you this, he was an executive leader at EY, a very influential person.
00:00:25
Speaker
within the community. But like I said, I can't do it justice. So Sam, I'm going to leverage you and trying to help the audience understand better who you are and what you've done. And please sprinkle in there the things that are really near and dear for me personally.
00:00:40
Speaker
I can't do it without talking about family, but please share just a little bit of your story so we can have an understanding of what you've done.
Balancing Career and Family
00:00:48
Speaker
Well, first, thank you so much. and I was excited to be with you today, Chris. You know, I think my story is just, you know, sort of ordinary story.
00:00:55
Speaker
Grew up in a single you know single family, single mom, and grew up here in Atlanta. Went to college at Morehouse College and majored in accounting. Once I graduated, i went to work for a big four firm for you know couple of years, like most people do, and got my CPA license and then left and went into industry.
00:01:14
Speaker
I had a variety of jobs in industry, a controller, a general manager, a CFO. And then I joined another big four firm. where I worked you know for the last 27 years and various roles ah you know at the firm.
00:01:30
Speaker
And I think from a personal perspective, I'm married, been married to my wife. We're to celebrate our 35th year of being married this year. I have three beautiful kids and I have two grandkids that have been ah really, ah i mean, I love my kids, but grandkids are much better.
00:01:46
Speaker
ah because you can just take those take them back. But ah very active in the community. you know I feel a ah significant obligation to to give back. And I've been very lucky in my career and you want to make sure that I'm thoughtful you know of all the things that happened to me in my career, making sure that I try to create opportunities and pathways for others to really be able to you know reach their ambitions and reach their dreams.
00:02:12
Speaker
Awesome. Awesome. You know, during that explanation, you kind of shared about your family and I know how complicated it is to balance that personal and professional equation. How have you done it? How have you been successful in that arena?
Work-Life Integration Strategies
00:02:26
Speaker
You know, i I'll tell you you, know, a career in professional services firm a very demanding career. And i think one of the biggest challenges is that oftentimes your agenda is not set by your workload. Your agenda is set by your clients.
00:02:41
Speaker
um And so it makes, you know, work-life balance, you know, very challenging. But, you know, i think you learn as you move through your career. ah One of the things I like to say is that, you know, busy doesn't impress me.
00:02:55
Speaker
And I think oftentimes we form habits that actually create more work than we actually need. And I think as I got to, you know, senior levels in the firm, you know, began to realize that, you know I own my calendars.
00:03:09
Speaker
and I own how I prioritize my time. And I think that was the biggest change in how I manage my work-life balance. And I think, you know, earlier in your career, it's a little more challenging, right? Because, you you're sort of doing work and on behalf of others and you have tight tight deadlines. But as you continue to move up, you know i think it's really important to really try to get into a habit of focusing on what's important and to recognize that being busy does not equate to being effective.
00:03:38
Speaker
And so the notion of Controlling what you prioritize, learning how to delegate, learning how to say no. ah I think it is possible to create more work-life integration. I think balance is a tough word, but I think work-life integration. And I think, you know, the other good thing, Chris, I'll tell you is that our clients also are struggling to get work-life balance. And so what's important about that is that, you know, if you have a really important event, you have one your kids recitals or a swim meet, you know, oftentimes your client understands that.
00:04:15
Speaker
And so just having the courage to say to the client, hey, Mary, you know, I know you wanted to meet on Tuesday at 8 a.m., but is it possible that I can move that? Because I have my daughter's, you know, dance recital and I really need to make sure I go to that. Or, you know, I have my son's,
00:04:30
Speaker
ah you know play that I need to be at. And so I think that in the past, when i was a younger executive, I was afraid or I didn't feel comfortable asking the client for that flexibility. I think times have changed. I think that's now possible.
00:04:42
Speaker
You know, something you mentioned earlier in that in your response is levels. OK, and I start thinking about my career and I go back all the way back when I was a staff of a person and graduating up through the ranks and making partner at a firm.
00:04:55
Speaker
And I don't think about all of the the change in mindset. and ownership. I mean, how is it how how important is it at every level? OK, if you could go back and just reflect on your career that you'd be a good staff and then you graduate into the senior the right way and then show up as a manager the right way.
00:05:13
Speaker
It's different. And I try and explain it to someone who maybe hasn't gone down that path yet. And they're like, okay, they really don't get it because they think youre you already have it when you get to that next level. And that's not always the case. It's still a learning process.
00:05:27
Speaker
Could you share on that if you don't mind?
Career Progression and Leadership
00:05:30
Speaker
Yeah. And Chris, I think it interesting. I think that's a great point. I'm glad you share that with people because you know even when I was at a senior level, you know moving from running a practice to being on the board was another change.
00:05:42
Speaker
And then being a ah new member of the board and then and being a senior member of the board was another change. And so it unfortunately, it does not stop. But I will say this. um When I talk to ah professionals at all levels, one of the things that I try to do is explain that, to your point, there different phases in your career.
00:06:01
Speaker
Earlier in your career, you're oftentimes getting rewarded for the potential to grow and learn and develop. And as you move through your career,
00:06:13
Speaker
that mix shifts between your potential and your technical capabilities. And so I think one thing that everybody has to make sure you understand is your technical prowess is table stakes.
00:06:25
Speaker
And so I know people like to get involved in recruiting and all the extra curriculum activities. You got to make sure you recognize, you know, what pays the bills is your ability to have the technical expertise that our clients value.
00:06:37
Speaker
That's number one. But as you move through the technical skills, they don't diminish. They just become table stakes. And then what does become more important is your ability to manage and lead and inspire others.
00:06:52
Speaker
And then from that, it comes to relationships and being to being able to manage larger organizations. And so you sort of go through this seesaw of you know, gaining technical prowls, you know, gaining client handling skills.
00:07:09
Speaker
Then all of a sudden it it kind of evens out. So now you have a balance of technical skills and you kind of know how to manage the soft stuff. And then as you become an executive, you know, I'll tell you, it's less about technical and much more about how you inspire, how you impact and how you lead ah people. So I think recognizing that. So if you are a very technical person and you're in a leadership role and you don't know how to manage people,
00:07:33
Speaker
That technical expertise is not going to save you. And so as the old saying goes, what got you here won't get you to the next level. That is really important to recognize. And so as you get to each level, recognizing what needs to change and what needs to develop in order for you to be successful.
00:07:50
Speaker
Wow. You know, this is the question I normally present to all of the guests, and it's because I'm trying to understand how one gets to the executive ranks and the support system that's in place for you to to arrive there.
00:08:03
Speaker
I mean, have you had help along the way? We say a coach, we say a sponsor, we spend time you trying to understand you know how important a mentor is. I mean, how has it worked for you? I mean, and what's and I'm certain you've got a got a list that you can point to of folks or systems that are have been in place. But I mean, what has helped you advance in your career the way that you have?
00:08:25
Speaker
Well, I mean, look, I think luck's a big part of it, right? You know, i think being at the right place at the right time and being prepared is really, really. Don't tell them that, Sam. maybe It is. so I agree. I'm sorry. I think I mean, some people want to believe they did it all themselves. And, you know, that's just it's just not the case. And so um I think it's a combination of a couple of things.
00:08:41
Speaker
I think it's a combination of having the right either sponsorship, mentorship, or visibility to leadership. So they understand what your capabilities are and what your potential, you know, what your potential is. I think that's important.
00:08:57
Speaker
I think being prepared, having the right experiences, you know, having the right opportunities, serving the right clients. I think that's really important, but I will tell you, I think the part that, um,
00:09:10
Speaker
you know, I think a lot of us don't get right, is really also having the appetite for risk. You know, sometimes you got to raise your hand and say, hey, I'm ready to do something different.
00:09:21
Speaker
Or, hey, I'm ready to take on a new challenge. ah and And sometimes to do that, you have to take risk. You may have to relocate. You may have to change practices. You may have to ah take on a new client.
00:09:33
Speaker
And so sometimes that's how you can create opportunity by raising your hand and say, hey, I'm willing to do something different. So i think it's that combination of having the right mentor, sponsorship, awareness. I think it's having the right experience and I think it's sort of your willingness to take risk.
00:09:49
Speaker
And I think if you throw all that together and have a little luck, I think that gives you an opportunity.
Servant Leadership Principles
00:09:54
Speaker
The only other point I would make is, I'll tell you what I find. One of things that maybe we'll talk about at some point in the conversation is that as I watched my career progress, asked the question, who do wanna leader?
00:10:09
Speaker
I didn't want that to happen. I didn't want to that to just evolve. I was very thoughtful about who are the leaders that I respect and how do I begin to sort of implement some of their styles. And one of those attributes was the notion, i got this from my grandmother, who's probably my best mentor, was really trying to be a servant leader.
00:10:32
Speaker
And so, you know, the people who work for me are the only ones who can tell me if I achieve some semblance of being a servant leader. But I certainly tried. And what I tell people all the time is sometimes people just aspire to be a leader, just aspire to be a leader.
00:10:49
Speaker
You know, they like the prestige, the platform. And I tell people being a leader is not fun. It's not fun because you're constantly making decisions that are not in your best interest.
00:11:01
Speaker
but in the best interest of your people and the organization. You're constantly giving people feedback that's not always easy to give, but you give it to them because you care about them. It's being willing to make the tough decisions so that you can move forward. And so when when people say they want to be a leader, sometimes I say, you know, be careful what you pray for. You might get it.
00:11:24
Speaker
But oftentimes I just see this kind of this just blind and raw ambition to have more what they would describe as power. I think if you are ah really good leader, it has nothing to do it with power.
00:11:36
Speaker
It has to do with the ability to inspire, the ability to motivate, and the ability to sort of bring people together kind of rally around a common call. So actually, i think to be a great leader is actually the opposite of that power.
00:11:51
Speaker
It's about how do you empower others. And so that that is another piece, just having this raw ambition, I don't think it's always very helpful. So this is a question that we have never talked about. and you I know you're going to say, Chris, you're going to present something that ah you haven't shared with me. Yes, I am. It's okay.
00:12:08
Speaker
I start thinking about yeah something just coming to mind about the pipeline. And I think about all of the conversation around the pipeline. And I've heard a lot of different perspectives on this and that, you know, it's not interesting enough. It's not the values different.
00:12:24
Speaker
OK, the work is a lot harder, you know, and maybe folks don't want to engage or, you know, entrance into the into this particular profession don't want to engage that way. i mean, what do you think when I say just high level pipeline, what comes to mind for you?
00:12:38
Speaker
Not a solution, but I'm just curious as to what you're thinking.
Modernizing the Talent Pipeline
00:12:42
Speaker
Yeah, I want to clarify when you talk about pipeline, the pipeline to the partnership. I'm talking about pipeline for talent in general, not not a partnership. Perfect.
00:12:49
Speaker
Perfect. Sorry. Yep. No, i look, look, I think pipeline is an issue and I think it is a real issue. And I think the reason that I think the issue is really self-imposed. um I think one of the biggest challenges around the accounting profession is I'm not necessarily sure that we as the the large firms and a lot of the support organizations around it, I'm not sure we modernized.
00:13:16
Speaker
and communicated the story around why this can be and should be an attractive career. And and what you've had happening happening is that you now have you know generations of professionals who are just motivated very differently. When I came through the process, ah you know one of the biggest you know benefits of this was becoming a partner.
00:13:39
Speaker
um And you know that was a 10 year, 12 year, 15 year journey that you you kind of signed up for. ah You know, people today don't necessarily look at life that way. You know, they they look at life and I would describe sort of ah components of vignettes.
00:13:55
Speaker
And so going out to, you know, generation of people and say, hey, if you work hard and, you know, really, really do all the things we tell you to do, you're going to make partner in 15 years. that That just doesn't resonate.
00:14:07
Speaker
That doesn't resonate. And the nature of the work and how we engage and how we develop um and the experiences that we provide, You know, giving people rotation. Sometimes in these firms, it's easier to change firms than it is to change practices inside of a firm.
00:14:24
Speaker
And so I think, you know, giving people more opportunities. And so I i think a lot of the pipeline issues have been, I believe have actually been self-imposed because I don't think we've always created or morphed our story to the changes and the expectations of the of the generations that we now have coming into the professions.
00:14:45
Speaker
ah ways of working, you know, can we rethink busy season? Can we rethink how we use technology? Can we rethink the apprenticeship model?
00:14:56
Speaker
um Can we rethink promotions, career paths, all those kinds of things. And so I think the pipeline is an issue, but I think it's an issue that we can fix. So when I think about it, it's something that you just mentioned and you start thinking about the individual businesses, the audit, the tax versus the the consulting component of it.
00:15:19
Speaker
Once you enter into that, why is it so hard? why dont Why is there so much stickiness to it and you can't get out of it? Is it because i don't know? I've always wondered why. I know because I've been a partner in a firm and I know once I train people, I want them to stay you know on task.
00:15:34
Speaker
So is there more to it than that? Because that's what I... yeah Not really. but but i' Not really. You know, it's really funny. you know We talked about, you know Chris, we talked about this whole discussion around the business of the business.
00:15:48
Speaker
And so one of the important things to recognize as you come up to your ranks is, especially in accounting and tax, Many other professions professions, professionals have anchored on those areas because they are risk averse.
00:16:04
Speaker
And so a really important part of kind of being smart about how you move forward is understanding the risk tolerance of the person and the people that you're working for. So to use your example, ah most partners would rather have someone that's a B minus player that they potty trained and that they've developed and they know they can count on them than an A plus person who go who comes in and out, right?
00:16:28
Speaker
And so what what is that partner doing? That partner is kind of managing their risk. And so when you have someone that's very strong, you very talented, they've built a relationship of rapport you know for that partner, they know how she works.
00:16:40
Speaker
um That partner is not necessarily that interested in saying, oh, and by the way, after spending five years of working for me and me pouring everything I have into you, why don't you go do something that why't you go do that for somebody else, right? um and And so, it we and then it's the, you know,
00:16:55
Speaker
okay, as soon as busy season is over, we we'll talk about that. Or, you know, let's get you promoted to senior, then we'll talk about that. And so I think it's hard because, you know, people want to hang on to great talent.
00:17:07
Speaker
And I think we have to rethink that and sort of say, what's more important is that we retain that talent in the firm. And my job as ah as a partner is to be a custodian of that talent for a period of time, but to also share that talent with the rest of the firm.
00:17:21
Speaker
That's another example just mindset changes that we need to drive. And and We can do that by holding people accountable. One of the things I thought about, now that I'm retired, I thought about, as I talked to other firms who call and ask for advice, measuring, we never measured for a partner.
00:17:41
Speaker
How many people did you put up for partner?
00:17:46
Speaker
As part of that person's evaluation over some period of time to say, okay, Chris, you've been a partner for now for 10 years. you know you've only been the sponsor for two partners.
00:17:57
Speaker
So what does that do with your comp? What does that have to do with how we rate how we rate you, how we talk about areas of development? And so i think there are ways to change the metrics and the expectations inside the organization that could facilitate a lot more mobility and and experience diversity.
00:18:16
Speaker
You know, we had a conversation about why someone would want to be a partner. And I know on the outside looking in, it looks very attractive. But when I think about having been a partner and the fatigue and and running a business and and understanding the ups and the downs and the from an economic perspective and how that changes our model, it's different.
00:18:40
Speaker
So yeah in your opinion, know, why would someone want to be a partner today? Just given the landscape and how things are evolving and it, and believe me, if it's too sensitive, just tell me, but yeah, I'd be curious as to what your thoughts are as it relates to that.
00:18:55
Speaker
Well, I'll tell you, I had a wonderful career. I i love being a partner and i' I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. Um, one of the reasons that I never left ah my firm was really, um I got addicted to the veracity of of change and experience.
00:19:14
Speaker
And so, you know, I had, um you know, a new client experience almost on a daily basis. I got, you know, I got a chance to see ah new organization, how they work, how they draw the organization, how they thought about strategy, how they thought about developing their people.
00:19:30
Speaker
their acquisition strategy. I just saw so much in some of the largest organizations in the world. and And what a tremendous seat to have to watch an organization talk about their strategy and watch them execute the strategy and see the things that went well and the things that did not, to be able to compare how did this CEO compared to this CEO, um you know, and to be at the table to watch that and to to build relationships was just phenomenal.
00:20:01
Speaker
And then also to be on the forefront of change, change in regulation, ah change in policy, change in geopolitical ah situations, and really to be at the forefront and to be able not only to see it, but to talk to your clients about how they are interpreting it, how they are adopting.
00:20:18
Speaker
um And so to me, I loved it because of the veracity and the ability to be at the table to see these things happening. I enjoy running the business. I enjoy developing our people. And so to me it was such a dynamic environment and I changed jobs. You know, I had, you know, 10 different jobs in the same firm.
00:20:38
Speaker
um And so to me, it was a, just an incredible experience. um But once again, you know With that comes you know extra extraordinarydinarily demand extraordinary demands, extraordinary demands on your personal life and your time.
00:20:54
Speaker
um you have to reinvent You have to reinvent yourself. Changing regulations and all of a sudden what you thought was right may be wrong or the way you'd handle something today may have to change tomorrow.
00:21:06
Speaker
And so it really forced you to really continue to to to be an evolving learner, continuous learning, continuous learning. change, new technology came out and you had to understand you know AI and and and quantum computing, can just go on and on and on.
00:21:23
Speaker
And so to me, oh the benefits far outweighed the challenges, but that's not for everybody. That's not for everybody, but I can just give you my personal experience.
00:21:35
Speaker
and And I have people who wanted to leave firm because they they did not want those demands. they did They wanted a more predictable life. They wanted to spend more time focusing on one thing as opposed to focusing on 15 clients. And so what is to each person, there's a different set of criteria. But for me, you know it was a wonderful experience.
00:21:56
Speaker
You know, when I think about advancing in my career and it's like I was always saying yes and I was afraid to say no. So when do you say no? I mean, have have you had to say no in your career? Oh, yeah. I've never, i you know, I've never been afraid to say no.
00:22:13
Speaker
You know, i think that um first and foremost, you know, you need to be, I think. Open to more change and more risk. I think that that to me and calculated risk, not on, you know, not un mitigated risk, but calculated risk.
00:22:26
Speaker
um But there were times when people, you know, brought me opportunities or came to me with, we'd like for you to do you know this. And I think it's important to to kind of engage in a dialogue to say, you know, sort of help me understand, um you know, why you see me as the right person doing this role.
00:22:47
Speaker
You know, how do you think I'm going to develop? um How will that impact my career? And, you know, I look i think, you know, you and i talked about the fact that, you know, i look at careers around optionality. And one of the questions that I always ask was, how is this new opportunity increasing or decreasing my optionality? So sometimes people come to me and say, we want you to do something. And I viewed it very narrow.
00:23:13
Speaker
And I would say, wow, by doing that, um I'm going to go down a path where I'm going to sort of be pigeonholed into doing very small or very narrow you know set of capabilities. and And I think that reduces my optionality.
00:23:26
Speaker
And so I wanted the opportunity that would either keep my optionality neutral or grow it. So for an example, when I had an opportunity to step out of my, ah i was on the consulting side, when I had an opportunity to step into back into the audit world,
00:23:43
Speaker
and managing the audit and tax business, I was very excited about that because I say, i you know I've never managed a tax business and I like to do that. And so, it was taking me away from what I knew, but it gave me the opportunity to learn a new space.
00:23:58
Speaker
um and by And by having that opportunity, I can now run different businesses. And so I look for opportunities that sort of increase um And if not, I you know say, is that really right for me? And is is it right for the firm? i think it needs to be right for everyone.
00:24:14
Speaker
Now, there's one caveat. There is the proverbial, the firm needs you to do this. Exactly. Right. And I think you have to pressure test that.
00:24:25
Speaker
you know Okay, I agree that the firm has a need. you know Am I the only person who can feel this need? And if the answer to that is yes, and you don't think it's right for you, I think it's very appropriate to sort of say, you know what's what's the transaction here?
00:24:41
Speaker
So if I do this, what is the firm willing to commit to me? Are you are you committing to me that you will give me opportunity to have leadership role? Are you committing to me that this will increase my likelihood of making partner? Are you committing to me?
00:24:57
Speaker
um you know Because I think that's a fair that's a fair exchange. The firm is asking me to do something that was not necessarily something that I had wanted to do. i don't necessarily see how this is sort of impacting my optionality in a favorable way. The firm's asking me to go do this for two or three years.
00:25:17
Speaker
You know, an understanding, what does that do for my career? And then what commitments are in place that, you know, can help me benefit from this experience?
00:25:28
Speaker
So my next question is is along the lines of the business. We're going to have a couple in this space. okay And I started thinking about the state of the profession and how quickly things are moving. Just over the past 15 years, I've seen so much happen, ah especially doing my tenure at the firms that I was with. And I'm like, man, I can't believe it's moving that quickly.
00:25:46
Speaker
ah from a regulatory perspective, as it relates to the political equation, as it relates to you know what's going on globally. i mean, what's going on? What is the state of the profession in your
Transformational Changes in Accounting
00:25:58
Speaker
mind?
00:25:58
Speaker
What do you see? Yeah, I think that's i think it's a great question. I actually spent a lot of time you know thinking about that. um And so I think it depends on if you are you know risk adverse or if you are a risk taker. But I think It's either transformation or a lot of disruption, depending on how you which view you take, right?
00:26:18
Speaker
But I think there a couple of vectors that are sort of driving the change. And I do think the profession is on the verge of sort of s seismic change over the next several years. and And I think it's being driven by a couple of things.
00:26:36
Speaker
um I think first is the business model. We talked a little bit about this, right? The business model is shifting. What people are motivated by is changing. We talked about the pipeline, you know having challenges.
00:26:49
Speaker
The experiences are changing. you know you You now have to be really good at working with resources around the world. You have to be good with working with a technology-enabled approach as opposed to just, I'm going to use my wisdom and my knowledge to do something. And so ah the the value proposition of being a partner has changed.
00:27:10
Speaker
You know, most of firms have, you know, gotten rid of their pensions and, you know, the partner role is ah is a much more, much more accountability. So it has changed. You know, when I grew up, you know, came into the firm many, many, many years ago, and when I started my career, you know, partners with golf on Fridays, you know, i mean, things like that, you know, and like that, that that doesn't happen anymore. Right. You know, and so and it happens, but it's not, ah it's not as a big part of the, uh,
00:27:39
Speaker
Firms would pay for your golf course and all those kinds of stuff has just changed. And so I think what it means to be a partner has changed. They got better or worse. It just changed. And you also have new generations entering the profession who have different expectations and they prioritize things differently. like So that's one. I think the model is changing.
00:27:57
Speaker
um The competitive landscape is changing. And I think this is the part that's just, I think, quite fascinating. Not only are the dynamics changing inside the big four, but you now have the second tier firms are now seeing a large investment coming from private equity firms.
00:28:18
Speaker
And these private equity firms see the attractive margins, the attractive ah recurring revenue that these firms create. And you know they're bringing a very different approach to managing these firms. I believe that will change your profession.
00:28:33
Speaker
well you know It's much harder to to change something that's been in place for 100 years than it is to step into something and and change it. And one of the things, for example, you see in these firms that have had PE investments is the way they make decisions. you know Partnerships tend to make decisions a little bit slower, a lot more consensus based.
00:28:51
Speaker
ah As we see the private equity firms move in, the decisions are made much more in a corporate type fashion. So I think not just the investment from private equity firms, but they're new entrants.
00:29:03
Speaker
I think you're gonna see technology companies stepping into the space and saying, hey, we want to provide some of these services. So it's it's it's the competitive landscape I think is also changing.
00:29:16
Speaker
Disruptive technology. it I won't bore you with what's happening with, you know, generative AI, agentic AI, automation, quantum computing, all of that is going to have significant impact on the leverage model.
00:29:31
Speaker
Will we need as many staff people? How will we morph the model? How will we get people trained if we don't need people in the entry level or less people coming into the profession? I think that's a huge, huge change.
00:29:43
Speaker
The complexity of business, it's very complicated now. You know, businesses, you know how do you audit something that's enabled by AI? You to figure that out.
00:29:54
Speaker
And so the business world is getting more ah complex. And then I'll finally say after all of that, your client expectations are changing. And so you have all of these, what I describe, sort of mega trends, sort of happening at the same time to a profession that has typically moved very slow.
00:30:16
Speaker
And so if you are a glass half full person, you can say this is exciting. There's going lot of change. there'll be a lot of disruption. And there's opportunity there. If the glass is half full, you can say, my world will get turned upside down. There's a lot of change. um but but But I do think the profession is on the beginning of a journey that will require a a lot of transform transformation and could see a lot of disruption.
00:30:45
Speaker
You know, one thing that comes to mind for me and I see transformation and I see change and I see leveraging tools to make delivery to a ah client different. um And I think about fees.
00:30:57
Speaker
What's going on with fees? Are fees going to be the same or are they changing as well, meaning going down or are they just different? I don't know if you had a chance to experience any of that yet, but you know I know you retired as of late. But what do you think?
00:31:11
Speaker
Because I see it. I don't know what to say about it because you can maybe you can charge more, maybe you can charge less. I don't know. yeah i think um Yeah, I think time will tell. What I can tell you is that fees will change.
00:31:23
Speaker
And i think I think they're going to change for a lot of reasons. I think they're going to change because I think your clients are going to start to see the benefit of technology. and the efficiencies that you know AI and other disruptive technologies can create.
00:31:40
Speaker
And with very little knowledge, they're going I think they're gonna turn to all their service providers, not just the accounting profession, the legal profession. They're gonna say, hey, we had to figure it out. You need to go figure it out. And how can you be more efficient in either reducing my hours or... you know So I think that the model of you know fees times, you know rate time hours I think that model is at risk.
00:32:05
Speaker
And I think how we price and how we engage our clients, I think we'll have to change. I mean, primarily based on sort of their expectations. Mm-hmm. You another thing comes to mind when I think about upskilling and I started thinking about all the things you just mentioned, AI and all these other things coming in and being a solution.
00:32:26
Speaker
And I started thinking about the solution offered. So I think about audit tax and consulting. I mean, if I'm out of school or if I'm a seasoned professional, what should I be doing on my own?
00:32:37
Speaker
I'm not saying that friendly nudge, you know, you need to go and learn this or you need. to How should I be focused when it comes to the skills that it might require for me to be successful? What do you think about that?
00:32:48
Speaker
I think it's a great question. I think it's great. And it's, you know, one of the reasons that I'm glad I'm retired, because I can kind of get off that treadmill and recreating myself and learning them the next technology thing. You know, I just look forward to a day where I don't have to think about that.
00:33:02
Speaker
um But here's here's what I would say. I think um if you're not getting up to speed with how to leverage artificial intelligence in a way, you know, not to do menial task, but to really, really amplify your thoughts, your thinking.
00:33:22
Speaker
um If you're not developing, it's spending a lot of time understanding the changing business models across multiple sectors, what's happening in energy, what's happening in financial services, what's happening in consumer ah products, what's happening in pharmaceuticals. I mean, really, really being a student of what's happening in the market,
00:33:44
Speaker
um you know having a sector expertise, I think is really, really critical. And so I think now is the time to really have a much more explicit focus and engagement with what you want your career to
Embracing AI and Self-Directed Learning
00:34:02
Speaker
be.
00:34:02
Speaker
You know, sometimes when I when i came along, you know I could just throw myself into a big four firm and they kind of did it for me. Like they sent me to training. They told me what I was going to do. They told me what I would be.
00:34:13
Speaker
If I followed this, you know, it was kind of a pretty clear path, right? I think that's changed. And so I think you have to do a lot more to make yourself attractive and to also make yourself malleable to be able to flex to the opportunity. So if somebody comes to you and says, hey, Chris, we want you to be on the AI team that's helping us develop you know new technology for the audit practice.
00:34:37
Speaker
If you about AI, you can't be on that team, right? And so you know people, have to be much more willing to self-develop and and engage in things you know, that you may not be getting paid for, or you may have to do on your off time, but I would be making those investments.
00:34:57
Speaker
You know, my daughter is in professional services firm. And I say, Hey, you got to make sure you understand, you know, this AI, right? Because, you know, ah she's like an Excel and, you know, data analysis guru. And I'm like, Hey, you know, we might not even need Excel, you know? And so, you know, you better make sure you know, you're staying on top of this stuff because, you know, it can come at you pretty fast. are other people who are doing it on that on their off time that can really give them a competitive advantage. So I think you have to be much more explicit about developing yourself than it's been in the past.
00:35:31
Speaker
You know, something else that comes to mind, I think about those that are in their second, third year of college and all of this is happening. And you've got these programs that are kind of aligned with solutions that are currently being offered.
00:35:44
Speaker
OK, so maybe it's not enough AI, maybe it's not enough coding, maybe it's not enough IT. t I mean, I see that as just a hurdle. And I'm not saying it's unfair to those that are in school, but to the point that you're making, you've got to figure that out.
00:35:58
Speaker
There's going to be a gap. yeah and And I won't say it's a gap now because I'm trying to figure out how firms are onboarding folks, because that would be highly complicated to me to figure out where they fit in, how they fit in, how we're evolving these solutions.
00:36:14
Speaker
So my saying some of that, what comes to mind for you when I say about, you know, training and making sure I know enough or I don't have enough? I think you kind of covered that. But when I get there and i I enter an environment that is, and I say it for lack of a better word, maybe it's just up in the air right now.
00:36:31
Speaker
OK, so what comes to mind to you? How do I how do i make that work? And sometimes we have to make Well, the good thing about it is that you know all of the larger firms, not just the big four, but the next tier, you know have great development opportunities. And a lot of that is sort of self-directed.
00:36:49
Speaker
um Some of the some of the the firms have certification programs. I would be all over that. I would be all over that. I would be raising my, we talked about taking risks. I would be raising my hand and saying, hey, I want to work on a project or I want to be a part of a team that's exploring things you know, these types of opportunities. And so so I would be definitely seeking opportunities, ah not just to learn, but to be, to have practical experience, you know, in a specific sector or with specific technology or a client profile. And I think seeking those out, whether they're a part of your job or not a part of your job, during work hours or off ah work hours.
00:37:29
Speaker
I think one of the other biggest challenges is that um You just can't train somebody on AI if they're not using that in their daily ah you know work.
00:37:42
Speaker
And so I think some of the biggest cohorts that need to be trained the partners. right Because if the partners are not using these technologies, if the partners not asking questions about, well, you know did we leverage data analytics here? Did we leverage, or why would we be doing this this way when we can leverage data analytics?
00:38:02
Speaker
Or you know I think this is a great opportunity for us to think about how we can leverage AI. If they're not driving that expectation, a staff person who just went to AI 101 is not gonna convince a partner you need to be doing more of this, right? so So I do think you gotta to have it you know kind of coming from both directions. You gotta develop the people, but you also have to have the partners and the senior managers and the managers also engaged.
00:38:26
Speaker
So they're actually changing the work. Because if you train somebody, as as a matter of fact, this is, I think, one of the biggest risks that the larger firms have is getting everybody excited about new technology, getting everybody excited about new ways of working.
00:38:40
Speaker
But when they show up to their engagement, it's happening the same way. And there's sort of this disconnect between what you got to be excited about and what I'm actually experiencing. And and i think that can create a challenge as well.
00:38:55
Speaker
You know, when I think about the partner opportunity and I think about, um you said the business case, okay. um And I think about those that are new to those seats.
00:39:06
Speaker
I mean, what do you share with them? Because I don't know if, and I'm, I know I've seen activity at the partner ranks and it hadn't been very favorable within some firms, meaning they're sitting they're moving some partners out.
00:39:18
Speaker
I mean, so what when you think about business case and you think I'm a new partner, I mean, some of the things you just mentioned probably make sense. You know make sure that you can message this the right way. Make sure you understand you know what it's going to take in order to be successful with our people and the tools that we have.
00:39:32
Speaker
I mean, how do they make themselves indispensable given this economic equation and counter the transformation that public accounting is going through? Yeah, I think it's a couple of things, Chris. I think first, um we keep coming back to you got to understand the business of the business.
00:39:48
Speaker
You got to understand how does the firm make money? you know How does the firm retain its it's its most important clients? How does the firm look at promotability?
00:40:01
Speaker
really understanding all of those levers um so that you can be a more effective part. I think the days that I'm just going put my head down and I'm just going to crank. I think those days are, I think those days are are over.
00:40:13
Speaker
I will tell you, you know, it may be a little controversial, but I'll tell you, I also think as a, as a new partner, you should look at your career in, you know, as vignettes as well. um I talked to a lot of new partners across all, you know, all of the firms, uh,
00:40:30
Speaker
You know, people call people call for mentoring or just, you know, want to get advice. And one of the things that I'm beginning to sense is that, you know, you get a 40-year-old partner, you know, she's saying, hey, I don't know if I want to do this specific thing for the next 20 years, the next 25 years, right?
00:40:48
Speaker
And so I think the profession is going to also have to think about partners are going to want diversity in their experiences, you know So if someone makes an audit partner or they're a tax partner, there's some portion of that partner group who's going to say, i don't i love doing audits and I love doing tax returns and I can do this until I'm 100 years old.
00:41:09
Speaker
That's great. But there's going to another group of people who are going to say, you know hey, I can't see myself doing this for the next 20 years. And so I think the firm's going to get much better at creating career optionality for partners in as they move through the ranks as part of their management development, leadership development, personal development.
00:41:32
Speaker
And I think partners are going to find themselves in situations where they may come in and out of the firms. They may leave and say, going to take a job in corporate America. I'm going to work for a PE firm. I'm going to go teach. I'm going to do something else.
00:41:47
Speaker
um And then maybe later down the road, come back into the firm. Maybe they change practices. Maybe they go back. Maybe they go work for the government, in the SEC or the IRS.
00:41:58
Speaker
um But I think you're going to see a lot more transitory behavior. um And a lot of it's driven by just generational you know expectations. When I made partners, like day one, I'm just going to do this so retire.
00:42:11
Speaker
It was just kind like, was just kind of how you thought about it, right? um Looking back, I probably should have assessed my career optionality at various times in my career. And I, I might, I probably would have made the same choice, but I didn't even go through that exercise.
00:42:28
Speaker
Um, and, and I don't think that's wise today. I think, I think people, people should step back and say, you know, am I enjoying what I'm doing? Do I see the opportunity to continue to expand my career? If that's what you want, uh, is there a way for me to take my experiences and leverage them differently?
00:42:44
Speaker
Uh, you know, for, you know higher compensation or wealth generation, uh, And so I think that's what I would say. I would say, you know, you should always assess your aspirations, your passions and those kinds of things as far as career and ask self questions. Is the firm the right place for me to experience that? If so, how do I make sure I'm doing the right things to to make that happen? Or should I explore opportunities ah that may be different?
00:43:14
Speaker
I think that's going to be much more common than when it was when I was coming through. You know, as we wrap up our conversation and I start thinking about that next question and what is that one takeaway? It doesn't have to be work.
00:43:27
Speaker
It could be it could go down a lot of different avenues. so What's that one takeaway you want to leave with this audience? It could be about the profession, be about your career. It could be about balancing everything out. What's that one key thing that makes that you think they need to know um before we sign off?
00:43:44
Speaker
Well, you know, like i said, i you know, that's a really big, big, big, big question. know. I left the broad for you. That's fine. So so so so I think i' like i'd like I like to speak to those who probably earlier in their career.
00:43:57
Speaker
And I would just say, you know, now that I'm retired, of you know, and I'm a grandpa or papa, you know, I'm getting that point i'm more reflective of life. ah But ah I would think about a couple of things that I would have told the younger Sam Johnson.
00:44:13
Speaker
and I probably would have told myself a couple of things. First thing is, you know, um don't take all of this too seriously, right? you should You should be very serious about your career, but, you know, we're not but not doing brain surgery, right?
00:44:29
Speaker
And I think sometimes we tend to load ourselves up with, you know, these sort of arbitrary ambitions and, you know, I'm going to make partner by the time I'm this age, or I'm going to, you know you know what, life happens. And sometimes those things don't happen. And sometimes I think we that has a disproportionate impact on ourselves and on our confidence. I think not taking ah life and and those kinds of things too seriously or taking those things personally, you you know, obviously you should take your career seriously, but but it's not life or death. And I think sort of putting that putting that into perspective, I think the importance of relationships and building those relationships and building those networks
00:45:09
Speaker
And more importantly, nurturing those relationships. Now that I'm retired, I look back i think of all the people that I know. And I'm like, wow, I didn't do a great job in nurturing those relationships. I know a lot of people.
00:45:22
Speaker
um But boy, I haven't nurtured all those relationships. That's really important. That's something I would tell people. And lastly, I would say, you know, be willing to take more risk. know, be willing to take more risk. And I think if you're going to bet on anybody, bet on yourself.
00:45:35
Speaker
um And you know what? If you're early enough in your career, you take a risk and it doesn't work out, you know just get up and dust yourself off and and on to the next. um And so those will be the three things. that they don't Don't take life too seriously.
00:45:49
Speaker
Value those relationships. They're very important to you. And take more risk. you Now that I'm retired, Chris, I don't think about some engagement that I was on. i don't think about some you know client project that I won.
00:46:02
Speaker
I think about the people. the people I interacted with, the people that I cared about, and people cared about me. And so i think that's what it's really all about. So that would be my my sort of my parting thoughts to the younger audience or the less experienced audience.
00:46:18
Speaker
That is awesome. Hey, Sam, thank you for being a part of this conversation. i know that, my goodness, it it means so much to me personally, but I think it's invaluable your being able to share with the community at large as it relates to all the things that you've experienced in your career as well as you know what's made you successful and really prioritizing those things that are truly important, not only during the experience, but now afterwards. So thank you for for showing up today and just um doing what you do best. And I know you like
00:46:51
Speaker
you being a part of the community and you definitely have shown up in a big way today. So I do appreciate it. Well, Chris, like said, I know the person you're probably trying to get canceled. So you guys call me, but, but all kidding. So thank you. Thank you so much. And, you know, I, I feel like I'm one luckiest persons in the world.
00:47:08
Speaker
And, you know, I've had a great experience and have been blessed well beyond anything I deserve. So thank you all for having me. And I'm very appreciative that you guys reached out and I'm so glad I could share this perspective.
00:47:20
Speaker
Awesome. So I'm looking to the camera and I'm going share with the audience as I normally do. um This has been invaluable information ah as relates to your career journey, as it relates to being or wanting to be an executive leader within public accounting or any business, you know prioritizing things and taking risk and making sure that you you are qualifying yourself every single day as relates to the skill set that you have. So Hopefully you heard it.
00:47:48
Speaker
OK, I'm excited that I was able to bring it to you. But also be mindful that you can get credit for CPE in a link below. And don't hesitate to to be a part of the next conversation.
00:48:00
Speaker
I am inviting Sam back. You'll have to tell me no. i know you yeah I have nothing but time. So we look forward to having that second round of of conversation and and just exploring you know how we can best serve this community. So thank you for listening in on Balancing the Future.