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Balancing the Future Ep. 18 - Adaptation in a Dynamic Profession with Calvin Harris
187 Plays2 days ago
Calvin Harris, CEO of the New York CPA Society, joins us to lead a discussion around the evolving accounting profession. Covering everything from accounting career opportunities beyond the conventional through changes in the process to CPA licensure, Calvin Harris and our host, Chris Mitchell, hone in on the importance of staying relevant with the industry’s constantly updating technology. Their conversation argues that AI will enhance rather than replace accounting roles, making the field more efficient and interesting. Learn how the industry is adapting to modern challenges and opportunities, and your role as a growing professional during this evolution.
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Transcript
Introduction to Calvin Harris, CEO of NYCPA
00:00:09
Speaker
I'd like to thank you for joining us for another conversation on balancing the future. Today, I've got Calvin Harris. He is a smart guy. You look smart, but he is a really smart guy and very successful. He is the CEO of the New York CPA Society, and he's a very influential person in the business. So, Calvin, welcome.
Calvin's Journey to Accounting
00:00:31
Speaker
And I would say more about you, but I'd probably mess it up. So what I'm going to do, I'm going to turn it over to you to share something different. I mean, I know um know a lot about you. I know you've been very successful, but share what you want with the audience about yourself.
00:00:44
Speaker
All right. well Well, first, Chris, thank you for having me here. I'm i'm really excited for this conversation and you know appreciate everything that that that you do ah for the profession. So, ah you know, as you know, um i am i'm I'm a true believer. i'm I am a CPA myself, like licensed here in the great state of New York and and also licensed in Maryland ah where where I grew up. So I do having Having this role ah as head of NYCPA is almost like a capstone ah to my career. I um i knew very early that I wanted to be an accountant. My my mother, my late mother, was a ah high school bookkeeping teacher, and I was one of those students or or kids, for better or worse, that would... would um
00:01:30
Speaker
you know found found reading a textbook interesting, which I don't know what that says about me, but I did. um But after my first high school bookkeeping class, which my mother didn't teach, but she clearly set me up for it, I knew I was in. So um after you know four years of college at at Morehouse down in in in Georgia, not for our consecutive years, but that's a whole separate conversation.
00:01:53
Speaker
But I knew from there i wanted to be in accounting and I'm Went up to Maryland from there and started it and then Big Five Accounting at Arthur Anderson. And, you know, the Anderson experience was amazing for me. I truly valued it. I still love it. i I still have paraphernalia of of X number of years old but from when I was trained, sitting on my desk right now from Anderson.
00:02:19
Speaker
But it was a great way to start a career because I got to see the areas that I was interested in and the areas I wasn't as interested in.
Transition to Nonprofit and Leadership Roles
00:02:25
Speaker
And from there, I really found that the the nonprofit, not-for-profit NGO space was something that really connected with me.
00:02:33
Speaker
ah Despite knowing I wanted to be an accountant, I didn't realize, oddly enough, despite all the research, I didn't realize that accounting one of those careers where irrespective of what area you're interested in, there can be a fit for you.
00:02:47
Speaker
And for me, I found it was really important to do good, you know, quote, do good in the world. And, um you know, so I've been a ah CPA and CFO at many organizations. Most recently, before taking on this role, I was the chief financial officer at the National Urban League, a historic civil rights organization, which is based here in New York. That's the role that had me come to New York ah from the from Maryland, the Baltimore, Washington area.
00:03:13
Speaker
um So with if you look back at my background, you'll see quite a few different organizations I worked for with all sorts of different missions, but in every case, they were doing something good ah in society.
00:03:26
Speaker
I would say, side note, I say this often to students because my my college career career counselor a late college career counselor, an exceptional man by the name of Ben McLaurin, who passed away a number of years ago. He'd be horrified at me saying this, but I've had 14 jobs since college, which, um which, um I say it means in every case there were these opportunities I couldn't turn down ah that end up being very interesting for me. But I i tell students all the time that, um you know, when you are really passionate and and and find the connection to something you happen to be good at, people will seek you out. I'm i'm very fortunate in that the vast majority of those roles were ones that I weren' weren't seeking out, but they turned it out being a really good fit for me.
Opportunities in Accounting Beyond Traditional Roles
00:04:13
Speaker
you know when i think about how much effort it takes in order to be successful in this profession and you mentioned ah you you basically had come into anderson and yeah some folks may not know anderson the way yeah we know anderson given how long we've been around right there's so many different opportunities within the profession could you speak on that because someone thinks that when you come into public accounting I got to choose debit credits or I got to do tax.
00:04:42
Speaker
And it's so much more than that. My experience ah as a consultant and being able to explore and work with so many different companies is truly one of the reasons why I'm so excited that I got a degree in accounting. And my son somehow found his way into accounting. So could you just share a little bit on all of the opportunities that really do exist within the profession?
00:05:04
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think you said it so well. And it's it's one of the things i think we could do such a better job um of telling this story to to people, not not just younger people, but even people who are established or considering a second career, that the only limit to what you can do with an accounting background, and I'm biased on this, and I mean, I'm wrong.
00:05:24
Speaker
ah The only limit you can have with being a CPA is your own imagination. Every single type of organization ah that you can think of has a need for accountants, has a need for good accounts, has a need for strong accounts, every single one, you name it, they they have some sort of accounting um happening, sometimes more back office than not, but but it's there.
00:05:45
Speaker
So that that's the thing. and And in so many cases, I mean, I began my career in audit, truth truth to be told, I didn't do it in tax. And frankly, you wouldn't want me to do your taxes. But but and you know so that's often the the place we start from.
00:05:59
Speaker
But the the opportunity is so much greater. ah You know, to that point, one of the things that I often think about, particularly in this role, is how well we're connecting to our members in what we call industry, which is basically anything other than an accounting firm, ah because there there are all sorts of roles that that one can have that that just don't you don't naturally think about because it's not always what we talk about.
00:06:22
Speaker
So but you're you're right. there There is no limit, truly no limit. to the the sort of opportunities one can have with an accounting background. You know, when I think about the change in the profession and I'm going to shift you little bit and so much is happening in the world.
00:06:36
Speaker
I mean AI is taking over. At least we think it's taking over. I don't think it's as much as folks think it is at this point, but yeah we're in a transformational stage in relation to the profession.
00:06:48
Speaker
And when I think about and I'm going talk about some of the or I'd like to talk about some of the concerns and kind of how you see it through your lens and being involved the way you are within the profession. What are some of those concerns that are bubbling up that need to be addressed? Or maybe they're not even concerns and people should just rest where they are. But what are you thinking when I say concern? What really pops into your brain?
00:07:12
Speaker
No, I think concerns is the right word. but But I think you can you can all at the same time say they present amazing opportunities if we choose to look at them that way. I tend to think the most critical thing um that the profession needs to worry about is relevancy.
00:07:29
Speaker
And I know it's not as exciting to talk about as you know licensing and opportunities there and AI. And um'm um I actually do want to talk about those in a minute. But I always start with relevancy because in my mind,
00:07:40
Speaker
irrespective of what happens with technology and technology opportunities such as AI, irrespective of what happens with things as licensing, 150 hours, 120 hours, we'll certainly talk about that a little bit more.
00:07:52
Speaker
But if we don't create a profession or continue to cultivate a profession that people want to be a part of, then none of it matters. So in my mind, relevancy is the most important thing. And I realize it's not always the most exciting thing to talk about or the the thing that that we have the the biggest strength in.
00:08:11
Speaker
But that's what matters to me, is making sure that a person, a young person who's interested and that might be a potential accountant, might be at a potential CPA, that they can see themselves.
00:08:24
Speaker
in the profession, because if they don't see themselves in the profession, if they don't see a place where they could fit, then none of it matters. So I think we have to tell better stories, tell more interesting stories.
00:08:35
Speaker
I think accounting can be interesting. The most common phrase I hear from a younger person is that accounting is boring. Whenever I challenge them, say, what's boring about him they'll say some things and and then out and in invariably they will say something as oh, but you know, we don't actually do that anymore.
00:08:50
Speaker
but That's not accounting. That's what we used to do. That's true. Or i used to do that, but but it's not that anymore. So I think we have to always push back and and try to make it as relevant as as possible. and And that doesn't mean we hide our our challenges and flaws. and There's no perfect profession.
00:09:06
Speaker
We got to start there. So I think that is the most critical thing is the relevancy of the profession and making sure that it's appealing. Now, everything else that comes after that is a very close second, but a very close second.
00:09:18
Speaker
If we talk about AI and technology, absolutely. I am very excited about technology and AI in terms of what it
Impact of AI on Accounting
00:09:26
Speaker
can do. Almost on a daily basis, I learn some new way of doing my job better leaning into AI.
00:09:34
Speaker
um i I sometimes hear people say what I think is just dead wrong, that AI will end the accounting profession. I think there's no reason to believe that. I've seen no data that supports that at all. Now, here's what I do think will happen, because we have many examples in history on where this would be the case.
00:09:50
Speaker
Will AI change accounting? Absolutely. Will it look different than it does right now? No doubt about it. yeah We talked about Anderson a little earlier. I began my career at Arthur Anderson in the early 90s.
00:10:02
Speaker
I began my career in the early ninety s doing audit work on paper with pencils and rulers. Three and a half years, about four years later, when I left Anderson to ultimately go to a client, I was doing all the work on ah on a laptop.
00:10:17
Speaker
Very big laptop, but it was still a laptop. And that's just four years to where you were moving ah moving away from paper. and Now, you know who does anything on paper? i On my desk right now, if you asked me to find a pen, I would have to pause for about a half hour to see if I could find one because it's barely relevant to me.
00:10:34
Speaker
So, yeah, technology changed it. Didn't end accounting. It made it more productive. And that's what I think is going to happen here. Technology allows accounting to actually be more interesting than it was.
00:10:47
Speaker
You know, like one of my favorite stories to tell students when they ask what my strangest job was, it was when I did the inventory of frozen chicken on December the 31st.
00:10:59
Speaker
Now, I say December 31st, you're an accountant, you're a CPA, you know exactly what i know you get. You get it all right there. Now, because that was obviously their their their fiscal year end. Now, the reality is technology has long made it so you would not even dream of having some person who happens to be a vegetarian, by the way,
00:11:18
Speaker
counting frozen chicken on December 31st, you will be leaning on technology and technology will give real-time information that, oh, by the way, is actually more accurate than me counting it and by hand.
00:11:31
Speaker
So AI will make us more efficient. It'll make us more effective. It'll allow us to be more thoughtful. You know, those those people who will worry about, oh, I'm not good at math. You don't need to be good at math, by the way, but you do need to be able to think of logic.
00:11:44
Speaker
You need to be interested in solving problems. You need to understand the things you need to balance. Technology will only make you better at that. So that is critical as well. And then the last thing, and this, you know, quite candidly could be a topic and a whole discussion in them itself, is is licensing.
Changes in CPA Licensing
00:12:02
Speaker
You know, as of the time of us recording, at least one state, ah Ohio, has signed into law an additional pathway that would allow us for 120 hours, the equivalent of of a bachelor's degree, plus two years of experience to become a CPA.
00:12:17
Speaker
Now, unfortunately, these days, and I've seen it as recently as yesterday, there are a lot of bad messages out there. So I can tell you i can tell you from my view and, you know, the insights I have, here's what's really happening.
00:12:29
Speaker
I know of no state, including the ones that have just passed, where they are abolishing 150 hours of of a work, which is generally the equivalent of a master's plus one year of experience. I don't know of any state that's abolishing it.
00:12:42
Speaker
What is happening is that we're adding an additional pathway. So some are wondering, oh, gosh, what's happening with 150 is still happening, but many are looking at an additional pathway. That's an important distinction to make to say this is going away versus no, it's just adding.
00:12:59
Speaker
Now, um lots of states are looking to think about what's happening. New York will be one of them. I suspect over the course of the year, we will see a lot more activity throughout the country on this.
00:13:10
Speaker
But this is actually good thing over the long term. It's going to be a little tricky. And for many people who are considering getting their CPA, it's going to be a confusing time. It'll be critical to align yourselves with your board of accountancy and, you know, selfishly, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.
00:13:28
Speaker
You also will want to align yourself with organizations like NYCPA, your state society, because we know the actual realities of what's going on. um And I think over the long term, what this it will do is allow for more opportunity.
00:13:42
Speaker
I have heard some people say, and i think this is just dead wrong, that this is bringing the the standards down. Oh, that's that's completely incorrect. Why do I say that's completely correct? but Oh, by the way, I'm a CPA myself that 27 years ago became a CPA with 120 hours and two years of experience.
00:14:01
Speaker
So what in my mind, we're talking about, in many cases, just returning to what so many people had already experienced. Or what i prefer the way I personally prefer to say it is it will take you six years to become a CPA through some combination of education and experience on average.
00:14:20
Speaker
Now, that may be four years of school and two years of work. It may be five years of school and one year of work. But the total for most people will be six years of your life to becoming a CPA.
00:14:31
Speaker
And that's not bad compared to so many other professions. So I think there's a lot of concern. there's a lot of confusion. There's a lot of celebration. There's a lot of hand wringing. But what's so important for people to remember is that where states are changing, they are adding.
00:14:48
Speaker
They're not taking anything away. So if you have a plan where you're going through a pathway of 150 hours, your world actually hasn't changed. If anything, you may have an additional option depending on your state.
00:15:00
Speaker
But those are the critical things that are going on. But that's also why, i'm quite frankly, I'm so excited to be here with you today. It becomes really critical for people who are truly in the know to be talking about what's going on.
Promoting Accounting Careers Effectively
00:15:12
Speaker
it's It's really easy or for for someone to say, okay, I'm just going to put my hand the sand and not talk about it, duda duh because unfortunately, particularly and in in and some cases with with social media, the loudest voice will win.
00:15:26
Speaker
But folks, the loudest voice is not always the correct voice. The loudest voice doesn't always know what they're talking about. But what's really happening is that additional pathways are being discussed, but those additional pathways are generally pathways that used to exist and pathways that used to be accepted.
00:15:45
Speaker
So, Does that mean the profession is going to be worse? I don't see how it could possibly be. Unless you're saying that people like me, and maybe this is true, unless you're going to say people like me who went under that pathway aren't up to snuff.
00:15:57
Speaker
So I think theyre one of our biggest things is just making sure we're getting the messaging right, making sure the communication is right, because there's a lot of bad information out there. And that does worry me because...
00:16:09
Speaker
in In the absence of correct information, some people will just opt out altogether. And I worry that we'll lose people that could be part of this great profession, that the reason we lost them is that they just didn't realize what they really needed to do.
00:16:23
Speaker
You know, Calvin, when I think about all that you've shared and I think about fear, yeah we think about the profession and it's intimidating when I, when I graduated from college and they said, well, you know, you're an accountant.
00:16:36
Speaker
It's a big word for me. It meant a lot. And okay and I think absolutely and today it's still scary. So when you're talking through opportunity, when you're talking through relevance, when you're talking through the certification process, we need to have folks that are so selling it.
00:16:51
Speaker
And I'm a salesman by trade now. i mean, I what was a partner with it. public accounting. So I understand what that means. So who's selling it? Because I think about academia and I think about the story and the sharing with corporate. And there's a lot of different ways to go with that. Where does it start?
00:17:09
Speaker
Who's the advocate? Who's pushing it? who's so Is it middle school? Is it high school? is it Who's really got a really good story? And how should they weave corporate?
00:17:20
Speaker
Because you can't sell it by yourself. And I've seen a lot of firms have strategy around this. But what are your thoughts as it relates to who's selling it and how should it work and how should so corporate as well as academia partner together?
00:17:33
Speaker
yeah This is such an important point, Chris. and And I got to tell you, amongst my colleagues, we have this kind of conversation all the time. the The profession itself is when you get down to the CPA part of the profession, anyway, it's it's admittedly a state by state profession.
00:17:52
Speaker
ah You know, i'm I indicated earlier how I'm licensed in two states, Maryland and and New York. um The requirements are our overwhelmingly the same. There are a few differences here and there, but nothing that really is significant.
00:18:05
Speaker
But the reality is you've got 55 different jurisdictions. That's 50 states, District of Columbia, and four four other amazing places, including Guam California.
00:18:18
Speaker
U.S. Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, and Northern Marin Islands. I actually can name all 55. This is a test for myself there. But um the the reality is each of the 55 can rightfully claim leadership in there. But then those are state boards of accountancy. But then within each of those state boards of accountancy, you have organizations like myself, the state societies.
00:18:38
Speaker
Then overarching for that, you have the AICPA, a very critical, important ah partner in this. But then on the on the Board of Accounting side, you have NASB, again, a critical, important partner.
00:18:48
Speaker
There is no shortage of stakeholders in this. and all of us have our own voices. that There's a case to be made in terms of who should have the loudest voice. or you know i won I won't go into that as much as I would say What is most helpful is for us to speak as much as possible with one voice.
00:19:09
Speaker
um I don't think there's anything wrong with all of us talking and talking loudly, full throated in terms of what's important, in terms of what's so great ah about the profession.
00:19:20
Speaker
what What ends up being even more helpful is when we're when we're saying the same same thing. And it's it's it's a little tougher in a profession where we're by definition and by design separated this way.
00:19:33
Speaker
And we mentioned academia and you mentioned academia first, and you yeah yeah obviously can't leave that out because I mentioned AICPA and I mentioned NASBA. But then there's also AAA, the American Accounting Association, which is overwhelmingly the academics, ah the academic side.
Academia's Role in Shaping Future Accountants
00:19:46
Speaker
And all of you know all of us with the CPA, myself included, the academics was most cases the first part in terms of us becoming a part of the profession.
00:19:55
Speaker
the the The insights, the guidance, the the coaching we receive from our professors is a critical part of how we got to this point. That absolutely is the case for me. So I think where where it ends up being helpful is for all of us to work together.
00:20:09
Speaker
It's okay for us to disagree. but That's fine. I think that can be helpful. Dialogue can be helpful. ah But it's still important to make sure that we're pushing forward. Where what I try to focus on, admittedly, are on those areas where I think it's hard for us to find places of disagreement, such as relevancy.
00:20:26
Speaker
I've yet to meet a person yet who disagrees with the person. They may disagree that relevancy is the most important thing. That's fine. I i can get that. i understand They may think something else is more important. There's nothing wrong with that. But I've yet to meet a so a person who doesn't think that relevancy is important.
00:20:40
Speaker
So let's focus on that. I've yet to meet a person that thinks that making sure we're making full advantage and use of technology important. So let's focus on that. So in most cases, we need to focus more on those things that we agree on, those things that we can get in alignment with, and less attention in those places where we're not there. That's not to say we should ignore our differences.
00:20:59
Speaker
Maybe we need to work through those differences off to the side. But it is so easy. And I see this happen all too often within the profession and outside. If we focus so much on the things where we're not in agreement, that we aren't able to move forward on the things that we are, we will kill this profession.
00:21:16
Speaker
We have to find a way to come together and speak with one voice on the things that are more most important, that this is a great profession. This is a profession that has amazing opportunities on it. To where even though we have a little bit of room to grow in terms of starting salaries, the salaries as you continue in your career exceed most other professions.
00:21:35
Speaker
we need to We need to lean into those stories that are important, the things that are critical. I had no earthly idea. For all the research I did as as an accounting student, it never occurred to me.
00:21:47
Speaker
that being the CEO of a state society, let alone is a state that I didn't even grow up in, never even occurred to me that would be an option. I have this job partially because I'm a CPA and we need to tell that story on what's available.
00:22:01
Speaker
We need to tell the story about what we can do. And yes, we absolutely have to focus on technology. We absolutely need to focus on licensing and making sure that we can get ah very easy, not easy in terms of ah rigor, but an easy approach and an obvious approach to be getting people more licensed and getting them in the profession and less focused on those things that can pull us apart.
00:22:25
Speaker
You know, Kevin, I want to get your opinion on one thing, and and yeah that is if I am a sophomore in college right now and I'm coming up and through the ranks, yeah everything is shifting on the fly within the structure of being a certified public accountant within a firm, a big four firm, or you know working as a staff accountant within a Fortune 100.
00:22:49
Speaker
And I'm going to put this out there. and You tell me if it's different. Do they really know what their needs are at this point in time? And how can it possibly, this is just my own opinion, match their need, match the curriculum and what's being taught in school? Do you, the am I the only one that see that sees a gap in that process?
00:23:09
Speaker
yeah and and And can you fix that or do you just have to go with it? Or I mean, what's your thought on that?
Evolving Career Structures in Public Accounting
00:23:16
Speaker
Yeah, I think there's no doubt that there's a gap there. um And I don't think it's because people aren't trying to to reduce the gap.
00:23:23
Speaker
But this is where another opportunity exists. It absolutely is a challenge, but this is where the opportunity exists, is making sure that as our committed and exceptional professors,
00:23:35
Speaker
And instructors are providing guidance to to those students, those aspiring accountants that were also leaning into what's happening outside of the classroom and outside of the college, whether that's bringing in professionals from those accounting firms and oh, by the way, from those companies and industry.
00:23:53
Speaker
ah Bringing in organizations like my my but like my own to make sure that we're balancing it out, not instead of the academic instruction, but in in in addition to. When I think of the best professors that I had ah way back when in college, they all found a way to weave in the the quote real world.
00:24:14
Speaker
into the classroom. I mean, that's a reason why at NYCPA, we very recently started ah student chapters. we We added our first at Marist College. Now it's Marist University. Congratulations to Marist.
00:24:26
Speaker
ah That's our first. It's a pilot. We're trying to see how it goes. And it's not a new concept. i'm I'm a proud past national president, now called national chair. of National Association of Black Accountants, NABBA, Inc., a proud chair. I was the 24th chair.
00:24:39
Speaker
And I came up through the student chapter ranks at Morehouse. I was the Morehouse ah chapter president. So I know from personal experience that that connection, that that community that can create be created is helpful because it was through that experience as a student leader that I met people in in in the accounting profession well before I joined it. So I think that's where it becomes important.
00:25:03
Speaker
the The instructors, the professors are already doing amazing. They're already doing a challenging. Sometimes those accounting concepts are hard to pick up on. I mean, you know, it's not even going to intermediate accounting and how that can be, how challenging that one class can be.
00:25:18
Speaker
But it's also important to make sure that while we're instructing them, that we're bringing those real world, real world award options in there and I think that's where the connection be, whether it's through firms going in directly, connecting with ah your state society, your board of accountancy,
00:25:34
Speaker
That's where it works best when we're all working together, because we all have a vested interest in in aspiring student success. That's how we get there. We can we can wrap our arms around those students and make sure that they're being led in a path towards success.
00:25:50
Speaker
So, Calvin, this is going be a question. I know we've never talked about this, so i know you're going to be caught off guard. So my apologies. up All right. No problem. When we think about public accounting, in and I'm not saying this is what's going on, but some may think that it's more of a pyramid when you get in public accounting, maybe a firm or something of that nature.
00:26:08
Speaker
Old school Anderson model, and you move up and you move to the ranks. And then what I heard the other day is that now it's more of a diamond. And it's a diamond for a lot of different reasons because I need more of the senior managers, managers and seniors.
00:26:25
Speaker
And i obviously I'm gonna bring folks into that model, but I need less partners due to the changes in the business, whether that's the result of AI what have you.
00:26:37
Speaker
What do you say to that? That it's gone from a pyramid to a diamond and then those resources look different and the way they're being and allocated. What comes to mind for you when I present that? and but my My initial thought was it depends.
00:26:51
Speaker
but There are absolutely firms that I've seen that have shifted to more of a diamond. Now, where I've seen that diamond come into play have been really from two different things. Well, three, actually. um Not necessarily in this order.
00:27:02
Speaker
um Enhanced usage of technology. um in there, which which has reduced the need for people at that that more you know starting level.
00:27:13
Speaker
the The difficulty in bringing some of those people into the profession, just frankly not being able to find the bodies, and there's a whole bunch of reasons they can go into that, including where they're looking, by the way.
00:27:24
Speaker
um And then the third would be um outsourcing and offshoring to where those functions and those people are actually still there. They're just not employees of the organization.
00:27:35
Speaker
I tend to see those three being the reasons at the, at the at the quote, bottom of that form of pyramid that has drawn them out because the pyramid is still there. It's just those triangles on the end end being technology and outsourcing.
00:27:48
Speaker
Now, at the top of that pyramid or the top of the diamond, it ends up being what you just said. But again, it comes to two reasons so in some cases, particularly at firms of a certain size. And that would be whether people stay in long enough.
00:28:00
Speaker
to get to that level. So again, you have, do you just simply have enough people? And then also whether, again, technology changes the dynamic. But yeah, I've absolutely seen, fact, I saw a a drawing of this just last week where one was showing like the the accounting firm of today is a diamond.
00:28:20
Speaker
um But what they what they tend to do is they draw like a dotted line for the pyramid, but the bottom ends up being that that technology and outsourcing. So that's absolutely true. That's a possibility.
00:28:31
Speaker
but But what I would still say to people who are worried, in the sense of being one of the, I think one of the more interesting dynamics, and it's it's frankly going to still need more time, years, perhaps decades ah to, well, probably not decades. I think the world moves too fast for it to be decades, but but certainly years to where we still have a time where even with the advancements of technology and even with the the rapid expansion and continuing expansion, and of of outsourcing and offshoring, which I don't think is a bad thing, by the way, we still have just a basic pipeline challenge of not enough people coming into the profession to supply what we have.
00:29:10
Speaker
So to some degree, the technology and the offshoring is necessary anyway, simply because the population is not there, which, by the way, if you ask me, I'd say, well, one of the reasons still comes to back to that relevancy that I talked about.
00:29:24
Speaker
um But it's what I would say for someone that's in there, the opportunity is actually still there.
Connecting Students with Real-World Experiences
00:29:30
Speaker
they They look different than they did for me, you know, X number of years ago, as they should, because that means the profession is growing. The profession is changing.
00:29:38
Speaker
But the opportunities are still there. um I tend to find that students who are going through, particularly a student who has this aspirations on being a CPA, hopefully on being a CPA, they find those opportunities out there.
00:29:51
Speaker
Now, there are also always things to say in terms of you know enhancing your ability to network and enhancing your ability to interview. Those things are will always be be critical. And I do worry about those sort of things. You know you and I are chatting right now um online virtually in a way that you sure we do this multiple times a day.
00:30:10
Speaker
Five years ago, well, maybe a little longer than five years ago, because five years ago would have had a smack in the middle of the pandemic, wouldn't it? But let's say 10 years ago, talking this way would have not been unusual, but it would have not been the norm.
00:30:21
Speaker
So the the the world the world changes. So I do do tell younger professionals or aspiring professionals, Not to step away from the technology, lean into into technology, because it's actually an advantage that you have over people who are more established who have to learn it. You grew up with it. You have an advantage over But the place where I find more seasoned professionals have is on that interpersonal level, that though the ability to communicate.
00:30:49
Speaker
i'm i'm i'm a afraid I'd give attributes, can remember who said it, but but i'm but I'm going to paraphrase something I heard from another from from ah from a CEO recently. But it it was emphasizing that at at a certain level, but I don't think it just applies to CEO level. I think it applies at any level of expertise.
00:31:04
Speaker
that that you know being the technical expert gets you in the door, but that's not what helps you grow. you know i you know At the risk of sounding immodest, I'm a i'm pretty doggone good CPA. I'm a pretty good accountant. I know what I'm doing. i i know my stuff.
00:31:22
Speaker
But my career has not progressed because I knew my debits from my The most important thing I found in my career was my ability to communicate complex information in a way that made it sound simple.
00:31:35
Speaker
It wasn't simple, but i've i i'm I found that I'm actually pretty good at that. I'm not sure where it came from, but it's just something I developed. So I say for for the people who are aspiring,
00:31:48
Speaker
I wouldn't say don't worry because everybody, I know I did. I was very worried when I was coming out of college. ok What am I to do? Am I going to find you? I get it. That's normal. That's fine. It's okay. But make sure you arm yourself with information.
00:32:00
Speaker
Engage with your professor. Engage with organizations like mine. Engage with with professionals because we'll help guide you to to being successful. So I have another question, but it's more in line with the experienced professional.
Flexibility and Diversity in Accounting Careers
00:32:14
Speaker
yeah There is a process that you go through in accounting. You start as a staff and staff too, maybe, and then senior and so forth and so on. How important is it to continue to attract folks into the profession that didn't start?
00:32:32
Speaker
you know, when they were in their early 20s that may have decided they want to do it in their 30s. Because I think some folks get discouraged by that so-called process and that system and how you need to graduate up to truly be successful.
00:32:48
Speaker
What do you say to that? Because I don't think that's the case. I think you can enter and when you enter. And you can be successful throughout the process to the point you just made. and um You have a skill, you have a talent and you deliver.
00:33:02
Speaker
But what do you say to that age, you know, that that that association that I need to be a certain age to enter their profession and start at a certain time to be successful? Yeah, I got admit, pardon me, I have to admit that they but I've heard that a lot.
00:33:19
Speaker
And I try not to poo poo it or or dismiss it because I think they do have a point. if If I think about the profession at at its, pardon the expression, at its stereotypical way, it is exactly how you said.
00:33:32
Speaker
the The profession is very well designed for a younger person in their early 20s coming out of college, whether it's with their bachelor's degree, depending on the state now, or or master's degree, and you know year of experience, CPA. We're very well designed for that.
00:33:47
Speaker
You know start as a you staff person, staff accountant, staff analyst, whatever, senior manager, we're very well established that. We're not nearly as well set up for a person who's in the middle.
00:33:59
Speaker
Now, it can work pretty well if someone is going from one ah accounting firm to another or one company to another, because then you can just do ah a lateral move or perhaps a step up or maybe there's a scale you're ah set up But now if you're a person who wasn't in accounting at all, and let's say you're in, let's say 35, you know, in nice, nice, nice round, round number.
00:34:20
Speaker
um And you've decided after 10 plus years and in in whatever other industry you want to come in and you've gone into college, you're going to be viewed different. And I don't say that that as a discouragement, but that means I think you need to be thought more thoughtful on where you, where you choose to work.
00:34:36
Speaker
I can think of quite a few firms, even as we sit here, would love that person. They want the person coming in with some seasoning and they've seen some things. they They understand how the, you know, how complex um challenges and decisions can be made.
00:34:53
Speaker
And they're goingnna they're going to be the person who does extraordinarily well in terms of the non-technical because they've already seen some. So I can think quite a few firms who love that person, but we don't do a great job of of engaging them. We don't go do a great job of talking about them.
00:35:09
Speaker
I can think about one of my members in particular in an upstate New York to where whenever I hear him talk about the the pipeline challenge, he'll be the first to remind me that Calvin, the pipeline is not just about people coming into the profession.
00:35:23
Speaker
at the very beginning or people leaving at the end, it's ultimately everything in between. was like, that's true. Because if you think about it, you know if we stick with it the the symbol of ah of a pipe, if you've got a pipe and it's got one hole on one end and one other end, but let's say it's got a bunch of little holes throughout, water's still not going to get there. So we got to think just as much about what happens in the middle.
00:35:43
Speaker
And that includes people who come in there. So we do have some work to do. um I find that ah A lot of my more regional and local firms, they're actually quite good at this. Larger firms do it well as as well, but it's it's where they've been intentional. And I can think of more than a few very large firms in New York City are exceptional in bringing in seasoned second professions professionals in.
00:36:08
Speaker
But but that it is real that they have a bit of a different path. it's It's not as easily... It's not as easy to see what their path is. But I do think that for those people who are thinking about coming into the profession after being in in some other career, that their options are just as great as any. And I will say, you know you know you know, quick, at the risk of it sounding like a plug, even on my own podcast, ah we talked to two of my members and they began in other areas and then shifted over.
00:36:38
Speaker
You know, my one of my passport presidents um went to dental school and then shifted over. into accounting later. And now he's the the head of his firm, which is the the largest Asian-owned firm in the country.
00:36:49
Speaker
And another one of my members began as a model. She had a very successful career as a model, and then she shifted over into accounting. Now, in my mind, neither dentistry nor modeling are things you would naturally connect with accounting versus maybe an economist or a financier. So the opportunities are always there. You sometimes may have to have a ah different look in terms of what that career looks like.
00:37:13
Speaker
ah But it it is the options and the opportunities are just as great. as someone who's starting out fresh from the right out of college.
Mentorship and Authenticity in Professional Growth
00:37:22
Speaker
Well, Calvin, as we wrap things up, I've got one more question.
00:37:25
Speaker
Okay. I asked this of a lot of guests um because I want to know what that one takeaway is that you have for this audience as it relates to the profession or something they need to be focused on in order to truly be successful in the profession. You've mentioned a couple of things, yeah but I know there's probably something else that's front and center.
00:37:45
Speaker
For me personally, it's okay. I need to make sure that I've got someone who is a good mentor and someone who has sponsored me along the way. And I really understand the value of what that looks like because no one does it alone.
00:38:00
Speaker
But what is your one takeaway when you think about your the success that you've had and how you've been and moved through the profession the way that you have? and that's ah That's a great question. If I think about my own success and you actually touched on it just in a moment,
00:38:15
Speaker
There is no doubt in my mind that i don't get to this point. or without strong mentors, coaches, and advocates.
00:38:26
Speaker
all All three. you know um I mean, to this day, I have a coach that I talk to at least once a month. I can shoot information. Someone who's known me for a very long time. He's known me well before I had this role.
00:38:40
Speaker
And I always appreciate his feedback. yeah There's never a point that I found in my career the way you don't still need that support. people you can bounce items off of. you know The ability to have your own kitchen cabinet, so to speak, those people who you can talk with in confidence, um but who also understand things well enough, they understand your personality well enough, because a solution that works well for me may not work well for the other person. It might be terrible for that other person and vice versa. So you you you can't can't really work or you can't really avoid those.
00:39:14
Speaker
but But I still think the over the overarching thing I would say to anyone in this profession is contrary to the this the stereotype, which sometimes is true, but the stereotype of the accountant being the person who wants to sit in the corner and do their work and not be bothered.
00:39:34
Speaker
There's nothing wrong with that, by the way. If that's who you are, lean into it. But i will I will freely admit, when I think of my most successful members, they are as far away from that stereotype as anyone can possibly be.
00:39:49
Speaker
They end up being the most engaging and thoughtful people. So, you know, I encourage people to you know lean into whoever you are. um the the Because the good news is that if youre if you're being, it's going to sound corny, but if you're being yourself, you don't have to worry about pretending.
00:40:04
Speaker
You know, I will admit one of the biggest mistakes I made early in my career is that I was trying to wasn't being fake, by the way, but but I i wasn't necessarily showing all of me.
00:40:16
Speaker
um And it was it was it was difficult. You know, it's difficult. It's like, oh, I'm going to act this way. And at a certain point, say, no, the heck with it. This is who I am. um And this and I've I have found.
00:40:27
Speaker
But that's what has made it a lot more successful. Just be yourself. You know, like the sort of thing your your your parents and friends and loved ones say, be yourself. That really does make a huge difference.
00:40:40
Speaker
um And that will also feed into the organization you work with because there are places I've worked where I've had exceptional experiences and places I've worked where I've had really bad experiences.
00:40:57
Speaker
and and And in more than one case, it was the same exact organization but because it it it because of because of who i was working for. So I encourage people to you know find a place that connects with them on an individual level.
00:41:11
Speaker
um course, I would say always connect with your Stay CPA Society. We're actually here to support you along your journey, ah but also and and enjoy the profession. you know that we we do serious work.
00:41:26
Speaker
as accountants. CPAs, the P is for public. So we we literally protect the public trust. And for as much fun as I like to have and, and you know, silly t-shirts I'll wear or all of this and that, I take that part very, very seriously. We we have an important and critical role to play in and in society and in the country.
00:41:47
Speaker
But that doesn't mean you can't have fun while you do it. So I always try to say, have have fun while you're doing this work. Well, Calvin, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast and do appreciate you and all and that you do and serving the community. So thank you for being a part of this.
00:42:04
Speaker
All right. Thank you, Chris. Glad to be here. Yeah, I'm looking to the camera like i always do. And I'm going to say thank you for being a part of another fantastic conversation. We talked about the profession and what a CPA could be. It can be anything you want it to be.
00:42:17
Speaker
just be Just remember to bring your authentic self to work and be creative and enjoy it and embrace it. There's so many different avenues to get there now. I mean, traditionally ah in some states, it's still a process and the process is changing.
00:42:32
Speaker
And I'm just excited for all that's available for anyone who's interested in being a an accountant moving forward. So until next time, um until we see you again, thank you for being a part of this conversation and enjoy your day.