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Arranging Tangerines Episode 21 - A Conversation with Selina Trepp Part 1
36 Plays3 years ago
In our first episode with Selina Trepp, we talk about her current show “Virtual Exhibition (IRL)” at Lydian Stater, using NFTs as a tool for accessibility, the microcosmic qualities of an art studio, the relational aspects of an economic exchange and the philosophy of actions and reactions.
Selina Trepp (Swiss/American b.1973) is an artist researching economy and improvisation. Finding a balance between the intuitive and conceptual is a goal, living a life of adventure is a way, embarrassment is often the result. She works across media, combining performance, installation, painting, and sculpture to create intricate setups that result in photos, drawings and animations.
In addition to the studio-based work, Selina is active in the experimental music scene. In this context she sings and plays the videolah, her midi controlled video synthesizer, to create projected animations in real-time as visual music. She performs with a varying cast of collaborators and as one half of Spectralina, her long running audiovisual collaboration with Dan Bitney.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Arranging Tangerines' Podcast
00:00:03
Speaker
Welcome to Arranging Tangerines, presented by Lady and Stater.
00:00:05
Speaker
Conversations with contemporary artists, curators, and thinkers about the intersection of art, technology, and commerce.
00:00:10
Speaker
Your hosts are me, Alessandro Silver and Joseph Wilcox.
00:00:13
Speaker
I know what to do.
00:00:14
Speaker
I don't know what to say.
00:00:17
Speaker
I just know I don't want to be like you.
00:00:20
Speaker
I know what to do.
00:00:20
Speaker
I don't know what to say.
00:00:22
Speaker
I just know I don't want to be like you.
Guest Introduction: Selena Trapp
00:00:34
Speaker
This week's guest is Selena Trapp.
00:00:37
Speaker
Oh, wait.
00:00:38
Speaker
So we're just recording, right, Alex?
00:00:39
Speaker
It's already happening?
00:00:41
Speaker
It's already on.
00:00:42
Speaker
Is this part of our conversation?
00:00:45
Speaker
I mean, it can be.
00:00:47
Speaker
Sometimes it is.
00:00:48
Speaker
But we'll probably start like a run now.
00:00:51
Speaker
Okay.
00:00:53
Speaker
Do you want to do bio or do you want me to do the bio?
00:00:56
Speaker
Go ahead.
00:00:57
Speaker
Yeah.
00:00:57
Speaker
Okay.
00:00:58
Speaker
Well, I'm just going to read the bio off your website if that's cool, Selena.
00:01:01
Speaker
Sure.
00:01:02
Speaker
Cool.
00:01:03
Speaker
So thank you for joining us, Selena.
Selena Trapp's Artistic Background
00:01:07
Speaker
Selena Trapp, Swiss American, born 1973, is an artist researching economy and improvisation.
00:01:15
Speaker
Finding a balance between the intuitive and conceptual is a goal.
00:01:18
Speaker
Living a life of adventure is a way.
00:01:21
Speaker
Embarrassment is often the result.
00:01:23
Speaker
She works across media, combining performance, installation, painting, and sculpture to create intricate setups that result in photos, drawings, and animations.
00:01:32
Speaker
In addition to the studio based work, Selena is active in the experimental music scene.
00:01:37
Speaker
In this context, she sings and plays the Videola, her MIDI controlled video synthesizer to create projected animations in real time as visual music.
00:01:49
Speaker
She performs with a varying cast of collaborators and as one half of Spectralina, her long running audio visual collaboration with Dan Bitney.
00:01:59
Speaker
Welcome.
00:02:00
Speaker
Hi.
00:02:02
Speaker
That was beautiful.
00:02:04
Speaker
Thanks for being here.
00:02:05
Speaker
Yeah, I always take the bio reading as like a challenge to like practice my articulation.
00:02:12
Speaker
Yeah, no, I mean, it's hard.
00:02:13
Speaker
It's interesting hearing it read.
00:02:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:18
Speaker
And sometimes I practice, but sometimes I don't.
00:02:20
Speaker
That was, I think that was a cold read.
00:02:22
Speaker
Although I think I've probably read it a few times at this point, doing the exhibition stuff.
00:02:28
Speaker
Right.
Exploring NFTs: Selena's First Project
00:02:30
Speaker
But yeah, so what we normally do is the first session is kind of focused on the exhibition and the work scene exhibition and talking about working within the NFT space in general for kind of like the first time or your thoughts on it.
00:02:47
Speaker
And then we usually do a second session that's a deeper dive into your practice.
00:02:55
Speaker
So Alex, what's our first question?
00:02:59
Speaker
I guess an overview of how having done your first NFT project, like any thoughts or kind of like what your experience has been like, what you thought previously and then after having done it and kind of what you can share.
00:03:19
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think primarily I would say I'm still in it, so I can't fully give you a lowdown, but I can say how far the progression... I mean, for me, it's definitely been...
00:03:32
Speaker
enlightening in the sense that my sort of concept of what NFT was or how it would interface with my practice or what the point of it is was sort of foggy and definitely not necessarily like something that interests me.
00:03:45
Speaker
There's a lot of aspects to it that I find like sort of the...
00:03:50
Speaker
the fact that the primary purpose of minting something is really about endowing value or like being, making it unique is like something that then doing that, of course, acknowledges the fact that we have to like, that that is the way to make money and money ultimately is something also that is necessary.
00:04:08
Speaker
That whole thing initially was kind of like, why is it seems so against the nature of the medium?
00:04:14
Speaker
But then kind of thinking about it and talking with you about what an NFT is and what the space is and also thinking about like, what does it mean today to
00:04:24
Speaker
one of the things that's always been interesting to me about moving, working with moving image and then specifically really working with digital files, like that's something that's always interested me.
Value and Monetization of Digital Art
00:04:34
Speaker
My films aren't just stop motions, but they are actually digital things in the end.
00:04:40
Speaker
Like is the fact that it is so kind of transportable and accessible and I'll be now.
00:04:46
Speaker
And I realized that, but the problem has always been like, how do you make a living off of it?
00:04:51
Speaker
especially with the kind of work that I like making.
00:04:54
Speaker
And so ultimately the only way to really make a living off of it is to addition it, which means that then it goes outside of the public stops because staying accessible, which is the primary thing about the medium that I'd like, but I think is interesting.
00:05:07
Speaker
And, and I think also sort of,
00:05:11
Speaker
creating fake scarcity seems weird to me in regards to being able to access it.
00:05:16
Speaker
And I realized that actually the NFT doesn't interfere with that because an NFT isn't an addition.
00:05:22
Speaker
It's like it's creating one unique file of that thing that's unique because of its NFT-ness, not because there's only 10 of the films.
00:05:30
Speaker
The film can be anywhere.
00:05:31
Speaker
It's just not the NFT.
00:05:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:34
Speaker
And so breaking it up like that, I realized, oh, this is actually interesting because it does the opposite for me.
00:05:41
Speaker
It allows me to be able to both commercialize the object, but also keep it in the public eye without creating a problem for each.
00:05:50
Speaker
Like the thing that is...
00:05:53
Speaker
The thing that is the value of it is the fact that it's minted and it's kind of stupid that that's a value.
00:06:01
Speaker
But if somebody wants to buy something like that, then fine.
00:06:05
Speaker
As long as it doesn't give me a problem with being able to make the work accessible, which is what I'm interested in.
00:06:12
Speaker
Yeah, that's like, I'm not, and I think that Alexandra would agree.
00:06:18
Speaker
We're not kind of like NFT evangelists.
00:06:20
Speaker
We're definitely like, we're like living kind of in the skeptic realm.
00:06:25
Speaker
But one thing that I am an evangelist about is what you just described is the fact that like, you can addition it without it becoming inaccessible.
00:06:34
Speaker
and hidden, which I think is, is a thing that I think for digital people working in digital mediums is just like, it's so novel and so smart in a way to kind of like keep the work accessible for people to see, but still allow some kind of monetization, monetization that can like help support a practice.
00:06:53
Speaker
Right.
00:06:54
Speaker
Which is obviously important.
00:06:56
Speaker
And there's lots of ways to do it.
00:06:57
Speaker
And this is just like one new way, but I think it's like a very,
00:07:02
Speaker
it could be a very cool way for a lot of people to continue making work.
00:07:07
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:07:08
Speaker
So I think that's really interesting.
00:07:10
Speaker
And then, of course, once I kind of came to that thought and then it's like, okay, well, I'll do this and then looked at more at the space and then also having an opening where people came, clearly came because of NFTs and were like part of that realm.
00:07:24
Speaker
I was like, well, this is actually a whole culture and that's interesting in itself.
00:07:27
Speaker
Like that in a culture that I just wasn't knowledgeable about,
00:07:31
Speaker
But weirdly, actually kind of suitable for me to engage with because one of the things I don't have is a whole lot of time and energy to go out, but you don't have to for NFT culture.
00:07:42
Speaker
That's very true.
00:07:43
Speaker
It is true.
00:07:45
Speaker
Yeah, it kind of like encourages not going out.
00:07:48
Speaker
Yeah, I know.
00:07:52
Speaker
Um, yeah.
00:07:53
Speaker
And I also think, and, and at the opening, it was really fun to, to meet people who were just there because they had seen, seen it and it was connected to NFTs and you've discussed kind of your work in general is approachable in its aesthetics.
00:08:07
Speaker
Uh, you talk about it with kind of like your public artwork and that it, uh,
00:08:11
Speaker
you know, it can entice people in that maybe wouldn't normally engage with it because they aren't necessarily a part of the contemporary art world.
00:08:18
Speaker
And I feel like the same is true for people who exist in the NFT scene, that your work is approachable and is enticing in the same way, even for a huge community of people who have completely different aesthetic preferences and histories and all of those kinds of things, which I think is cool.
00:08:41
Speaker
I hope so.
00:08:41
Speaker
That'll be interesting to see.
00:08:42
Speaker
I mean, I think that is definitely like always the question, right?
00:08:45
Speaker
Like I see a lot of people also in the art realm kind of dealing with NFTs almost kind of like, well, there's sort of these like very successful NFTs and then you just make a variation of that.
00:08:57
Speaker
Like everything, some kind of ape version or, you know, like it's like it has that same thing even within the art realm.
00:09:05
Speaker
because it's referential and it's become sort of synonymous for the medium, but it's interesting to start thinking about also, well, it really doesn't, the nature of the medium is such, it just is a file ultimately.
00:09:17
Speaker
That's all it is.
00:09:18
Speaker
So it doesn't have to be, the aesthetic could be really wide.
00:09:23
Speaker
And because it's not given yet, I think it's really interesting.
00:09:25
Speaker
It reminds me a lot of like the beginning of digital video when it was like the step from, okay, you know, like working in an edit suite and only being able to edit linearly to like, whoa, timeline, that's insane.
00:09:38
Speaker
And, but what that actually meant also then in regards to just thinking about distribution and access and then the internet, I mean, it's such a huge difference now.
00:09:52
Speaker
I think that's a good connection because we are in the infancy of whatever this is that is going to become.
00:09:59
Speaker
There's a lot of inherent flaws that Joe and I constantly talk about.
Critique of Capitalism in the Art World
00:10:04
Speaker
Part of it is that the whole NFT thing is built upon speculation.
00:10:08
Speaker
It's all about marketplace.
00:10:11
Speaker
It doesn't necessarily lend itself
00:10:15
Speaker
very well for say traditional art because that process is tends to be a lot slower and a lot more one-to-one as far as it being collected and how it's dispersed but like you said it's you also get access to an audience that you would have never come into contact with it goes out further and it goes out to to to eyeball eyeballs that are not necessarily in the the art world quote unquote
00:10:41
Speaker
But you kind of talk and write a lot about capitalism and how it's inherently flawed and you have to kind of deal and navigate.
00:10:51
Speaker
Can you kind of elaborate a little bit more about your feelings?
00:10:55
Speaker
About the system that you're currently in.
00:10:57
Speaker
We're all a part of.
00:10:58
Speaker
And I've always, my whole life, right?
00:11:01
Speaker
I mean, I would say I'm one of the people who does well in capitalism, first off.
00:11:05
Speaker
So it's like, I'm not, I don't feel, I mean, I could do better, I think, outside of it.
00:11:09
Speaker
But I think the
00:11:12
Speaker
The basic philosophy and sort of feeling of self of capitalism to me is just really flawed and doesn't take into account.
00:11:18
Speaker
Like it's so presumptuous that to assume that everybody has the same chance and that with hard work, you'll get someplace.
00:11:26
Speaker
And like, it's sort of the,
00:11:31
Speaker
The idea that success becomes the reason or the explanation of why you do your thing and if you're successful, it was okay how you got there.
00:11:42
Speaker
The path doesn't matter.
00:11:43
Speaker
Right.
00:11:44
Speaker
It's like, I don't like that.
00:11:46
Speaker
I think for me, I find it a lot more interesting when we start thinking about how can...
00:11:52
Speaker
We make a society where everybody can, like, where it works for everyone.
00:11:56
Speaker
And there's not, like, it's not predicated on winners.
00:12:00
Speaker
In order to have winners, you've got to have losers, right?
00:12:03
Speaker
And so I don't like that.
00:12:04
Speaker
I'm not into, I also don't think the idea of, like,
00:12:07
Speaker
I mean, it's all kind of weird because I totally think inherently I'm very competitive and ambitious.
00:12:13
Speaker
So those are all very like capitalist impulses.
00:12:19
Speaker
But at the same time, I also acknowledge within that, I think like I don't.
00:12:25
Speaker
I don't like the fact that everything is also pushed, like everything about my life is also pushes me into that direction.
00:12:31
Speaker
That's how all acknowledgement comes.
00:12:33
Speaker
And I realized that actually, if you pay attention to stuff and just engage and try to be fair with people, it's not about like, it's about having quality of life, not quantity.
00:12:43
Speaker
Right.
00:12:45
Speaker
And that isn't necessarily like having the biggest house.
00:12:47
Speaker
It's like having a nice house.
00:12:50
Speaker
Said an interesting thing just before I was listening to the radio and they were talking about how,
00:12:56
Speaker
in Chicago, property tax breaks are like just crazy.
00:12:59
Speaker
But then they were talking about the fact that what would happen if everybody just paid, if nobody got a break at all, like I would just pay, but they, that how much less everybody would pay, like we would all save so much money if nobody got a break, but it would kind of be mean like complete solidarity.
00:13:15
Speaker
Right.
00:13:17
Speaker
You know, try to sell that.
00:13:20
Speaker
Yeah, it's impossible.
00:13:22
Speaker
And I find it strange because I think,
00:13:24
Speaker
I mean, what we don't account for is, for example, like, I don't find it especially pleasant living in a city, having to walk past homeless people.
00:13:33
Speaker
Right?
00:13:33
Speaker
And it's like, this isn't, they're not just lazy.
00:13:36
Speaker
There's also something wrong with the idea of, like, how they got, I mean, you got to think about the whole bigger picture.
00:13:43
Speaker
It's like they got there somehow.
00:13:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:47
Speaker
And like in terms of the solidarity thing, it's, you know, there's a lot of people who are like, yes, of course, I'm willing to give a certain amount if everybody else is at the exact same time.
00:13:59
Speaker
Right.
00:13:59
Speaker
But you can't like because it can't happen that way.
00:14:01
Speaker
It has to happen gradually.
00:14:03
Speaker
And that is really challenging because like I'm not going to give all my money away just to whoever randomly because it's not going to change the system.
00:14:14
Speaker
But if you need to change the system, everybody has to do that all at the same time.
00:14:17
Speaker
Anyways.
00:14:19
Speaker
Yeah, no, and it's kind of like, how do you start?
00:14:21
Speaker
How do you deal with it?
00:14:22
Speaker
For me, I think I am super interested in systems in general, like within my work, but also outside.
00:14:31
Speaker
And I'm interested in
00:14:34
Speaker
approaching all these things as non-givens where it's like, well, I don't need to give everything away, but what can I do?
00:14:39
Speaker
Like, what is it like within, what do I have available within my means, given the systems?
00:14:44
Speaker
What are my options?
00:14:45
Speaker
And I think there's a lot of actually personal action, just interaction of how one can be in the world and interacting
00:14:52
Speaker
And then obviously my fantasy, like, oh, okay, well, if I, for some miraculous reason became extremely wealthy, what would I do?
00:14:59
Speaker
But I mean, that's pretty hypothetical.
00:15:01
Speaker
At this point, I'm just like trying to get middle class here.
00:15:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:07
Speaker
And I feel like the people who do end up becoming extremely wealthy have a very different mindset than people who strive to be middle class or whatever.
00:15:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:18
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, but it can happen to you.
00:15:20
Speaker
Like sometimes it does just like, I'm just kind of like, oh, well, how would I deal with that?
00:15:24
Speaker
Right.
00:15:25
Speaker
Or what do I think?
00:15:26
Speaker
How do people should deal with that?
00:15:27
Speaker
Because that's ultimately the question of capitalism is that I think, and I guess I'm sort of a moralist in that way.
00:15:33
Speaker
I think it's morally wrong to be super rich.
00:15:36
Speaker
Like,
00:15:37
Speaker
given the fact of like the whole wide world.
00:15:40
Speaker
Like I think at a certain point one shouldn't.
00:15:42
Speaker
And so that is obviously a real problem if one is an artist who is totally tied to, I mean, my livelihood is tied to super rich people.
00:15:52
Speaker
That's a fact.
00:15:56
Speaker
And that's very difficult to negotiate.
00:15:59
Speaker
But if super rich people didn't exist, then it wouldn't have to be tied to super rich people.
00:16:04
Speaker
It would be tied to...
00:16:07
Speaker
more middle income people probably.
00:16:10
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think with art, there's definitely this sort of issue that it doesn't seem to be the value of art within selling.
00:16:20
Speaker
There's sort of like two spaces that I see it operating.
00:16:22
Speaker
One is in the art fair.
00:16:24
Speaker
I mean, arts and crafts fairs.
00:16:26
Speaker
So really like places where it's not fine art or hide art, but they still sell art.
00:16:30
Speaker
There is a lot of art there.
00:16:32
Speaker
And there's like that sort of a middle class and lower middle class place where people can buy handmade art, non-reproduced art.
00:16:40
Speaker
And then there's like the gallery world and that really clearly caters towards like hyper luxury.
00:16:45
Speaker
Like that's the price class isn't just for every person, but it's for people who have real disposable income and an interest to somehow either.
00:16:55
Speaker
So I think I'm sure there's a lot of people and I know that there's a lot of people in there who truly love art, but there's also the other speculative aspect to it of like auctioning.
Art Valuation and Auction Challenges
00:17:04
Speaker
So for example,
00:17:05
Speaker
There's people who will only buy art at auction because they believe that if you buy it at auction, it has like that establishes true value because it is very subjective.
00:17:15
Speaker
Right.
00:17:16
Speaker
And so, but the problem of buying at auction is that that usually does not benefit the artists at all.
00:17:20
Speaker
Like it doesn't sustain a practice.
00:17:23
Speaker
So it's kind of like those are the spaces.
00:17:26
Speaker
And what I'm wondering about is like, how could one generate a space in between, but that would have to mean generating space.
00:17:33
Speaker
a desire for it.
00:17:34
Speaker
Right?
00:17:35
Speaker
Like right now, I don't think that most people actually really would be willing to pay $2,000, which I think is a very reasonable price for an original piece of art in every way, you know, because people would buy a PlayStation and that's also not cheap or an iPhone or, you know, like, so, but I think people don't like, with that disposable income right now, they don't want to do that.
00:17:59
Speaker
And that I think is the artist's fault too.
00:18:02
Speaker
Sure.
00:18:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:04
Speaker
Cause $2,000 is quite, quite a bit of money.
00:18:06
Speaker
I mean, it's not when you talk about artwork prices, but it is in general for kind of like existing.
00:18:12
Speaker
If you don't necessarily have that disposable income.
00:18:15
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:18:16
Speaker
But then when you think like, okay, I mean, in my case, like my films, they take months to make.
00:18:22
Speaker
Right.
00:18:23
Speaker
So it's like, what is my time worth?
00:18:24
Speaker
And, you know, like, and the years and the rent and this and that, like, it's all,
00:18:29
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:30
Speaker
You're totally right.
00:18:31
Speaker
Because even, like you said, I mean, people...
00:18:35
Speaker
people, I know people that they'll spend hundreds of, sometimes thousands of dollars, like getting a poster framed, which it just came from whatever, it's not necessarily tied to a single artist.
00:18:47
Speaker
It's just a thing that you hang your house as opposed to going out and supporting a local artist with a, who does painting or whatnot.
00:18:55
Speaker
And what that kind of lends itself to the economies, it goes back to your idea of more equity as far as just, but I mean, how do you,
00:19:04
Speaker
I think, I guess you just try as hard as you can to, to, to change what you can and possibly help others see what you see.
00:19:13
Speaker
Yeah, I do think it's super difficult and,
00:19:18
Speaker
In my own personal case, the way I deal with it is I found one of the values of being an artist and in this moment in time is that through social media, I actually have kind of a lot of access and a lot of eyes watching.
Direct Art Sales via Social Media
00:19:33
Speaker
So...
00:19:34
Speaker
I have found that because I sell my work myself primarily, I control the prices and the conditions and the work is being seen.
00:19:42
Speaker
People approach me and then I have a whole method where I just ask people.
00:19:45
Speaker
I do income adjust my prices.
00:19:48
Speaker
So if you make more money, you pay more.
00:19:50
Speaker
And if you make less money, you pay less.
00:19:52
Speaker
And the people who pay more are subsidizing those who can pay less.
00:19:56
Speaker
But I still ask, I mean, I make it very clear.
00:19:58
Speaker
I have a conversation with the people who buy and I make it very clear that it's not like
00:20:03
Speaker
I think they should, it should be, it's not a casual purchase, a piece of original art.
00:20:09
Speaker
Like sometimes we spend money for things and it's just a different kind of thing.
00:20:16
Speaker
So they have to want it, right?
00:20:19
Speaker
I'm also pretty generous with kind of like, you know, like in other cases, I work differently.
00:20:24
Speaker
I also do barter where I trade for things.
00:20:26
Speaker
So that's also a way around a lot of stuff.
00:20:30
Speaker
Barter is really great in that way.
00:20:32
Speaker
Well, that also relates to the way you had the pricing structure for the NFTs that we put out.
00:20:38
Speaker
So pay what you wish, which I thought was fantastic.
00:20:43
Speaker
Pay what you can.
00:20:44
Speaker
What you can.
00:20:45
Speaker
It's a minor difference, but I think it is an important one, right?
00:20:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:49
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's important.
00:20:49
Speaker
That's what I mean.
00:20:50
Speaker
It's like really assessing.
00:20:51
Speaker
Yeah, no, that was part for me, another part why I was really interested in the show, because it is like something that's when I say my interest in assistance, that's what I mean.
00:21:00
Speaker
I'm interested in trying out.
00:21:01
Speaker
I see my work as a form of capital or currency in a way, like or power.
00:21:07
Speaker
And so trying to figure out how I interface with
00:21:10
Speaker
with the world of economics and capitalism in our case, how I interface with that and how, if there's a way to make it work better for me and to try out these things because with an NFT, it's ideal.
00:21:25
Speaker
It's like, it's actually, you know, like maybe I'll make money, maybe I won't.
00:21:30
Speaker
It doesn't really matter that much.
00:21:32
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:21:33
Speaker
And for people who are listening, just as like an explanation, so the exhibition that's currently up, there is kind of like a very small edition that you can purchase if you were a collector who
NFT Pricing Strategy in Exhibitions
00:21:46
Speaker
had those means.
00:21:46
Speaker
But there is also an edition of 11 vignettes from the film that's in the show that you can buy for whatever price you can pay for.
00:21:57
Speaker
And it's an open edition, at least until the end of the exhibition run.
00:22:01
Speaker
So just to give a little bit of context to the conversation.
00:22:06
Speaker
And so what that means is that in essence, anybody can afford to get it.
00:22:09
Speaker
And it's more like you go see a rock show and you like the band and you get the music.
00:22:14
Speaker
Right.
00:22:14
Speaker
And so I actually find that super great.
00:22:18
Speaker
Like I'm like, I, because it allows people to support at whatever level that is comfortable.
00:22:24
Speaker
And there, I think it's actually okay to say like, Oh, yeah.
00:22:27
Speaker
Well, I'm, you know, I make $80,000 a year, I'll pay $100.
00:22:30
Speaker
Or I make $25,000 a year, I'll pay $5.
00:22:35
Speaker
You know, like, and I think that's exactly where it's like, what can you afford?
00:22:38
Speaker
What do you want for me to be able to work, make the work for any artist to be able to make their work?
00:22:45
Speaker
It requires patronage.
00:22:48
Speaker
So that's just a reality.
00:22:49
Speaker
You have to find a way to make a living because otherwise you end up on the street.
00:22:53
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:22:55
Speaker
And it's funny too, because I haven't actually gone and done, I haven't bought one yet, but I'm going to.
00:23:00
Speaker
And it's, I, you think that I would have already done it, but I haven't.
00:23:03
Speaker
Cause I, cause I think I haven't put a number on it yet.
00:23:06
Speaker
I need to figure out the right, the right amount.
00:23:10
Speaker
Right.
00:23:10
Speaker
And that's the thing.
00:23:11
Speaker
It's like, and I think that also is interesting just in general to make,
00:23:15
Speaker
I like this idea of a sale being an exchange, a real exchange.
00:23:21
Speaker
And so I think in those kinds of situations, what it does is it puts sort of a changes the power situation between the purchaser and the seller.
00:23:30
Speaker
And both have to kind of think about where they stand and what they want out of it.
00:23:33
Speaker
Yeah, it gives the consumer some agency that they don't normally have.
00:23:39
Speaker
Yeah.
Evolution of the NFT Market
00:23:42
Speaker
I did want to make a comment, Alex, on your earlier statement that the NFT market is based on speculation, which is true for version 2.0, I think.
00:23:54
Speaker
But originally, it was not a speculative thing.
00:23:57
Speaker
It was a creative exercise in 2014 or 2015 or whenever the first ones were happening, which I think is just another example of the way in which the market...
00:24:11
Speaker
co-ops any kind of like thing that it can to turn it into something that is more marketable and can produce more profits, which is what we saw, you know, last year, which is cooling off, which is good.
00:24:27
Speaker
At least I think it's good.
00:24:27
Speaker
It's cooling off right now.
00:24:29
Speaker
And so now I feel like the quality and interesting and thoughtful things can kind of start to rise to the surface a little bit.
00:24:36
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good point.
00:24:37
Speaker
Cause it seems like the,
00:24:40
Speaker
as the technology continues to mature, things like artist rights will be included into these NFTs, where right now they aren't.
00:24:52
Speaker
So museums are kind of apprehensive about acquiring NFTs because they don't necessarily know what they can do with them afterwards.
00:24:57
Speaker
Can you display them?
00:24:58
Speaker
How do I display them?
00:24:59
Speaker
How long can I display them?
00:25:02
Speaker
But yeah, there's a lot of things in the works that are being done that are very exciting.
00:25:08
Speaker
But I mean, we were just excited that you wanted to kind of take this journey with us with this experiment.
00:25:14
Speaker
And it's nice to see an established artist as yourself coming into this space open-handed and seeing where it goes.
00:25:22
Speaker
well I'm not that established but yeah thank you yeah no I mean I think that's sort of a hallmark of how I operate is that that is something I mean the things that sort of came that worked for me with this is A I like working with artists run spaces I think that is just in general I'm interested in that I find it an interesting form and generally it works well for me so but then also I do think it's you know
00:25:52
Speaker
one half I'm really interested in seeing what's happening and not sort of like on the one hand I'm pretty lazy so it's like I wouldn't necessarily explore it on myself like it was helpful that you kind of were like knocked on my door and you're like hey let's talk about this but then also really realizing like yeah I
00:26:11
Speaker
There is like a much, I've always been interested in my, with my artwork to explore alternative avenues.
Interdisciplinary Work and Virtual Spaces
00:26:18
Speaker
And so like sort of the way that I work in performance and within the music world, as well as within the art world, that is very conscious because it just gives me more wideness.
00:26:29
Speaker
And I think more understanding and access and a larger, a different kind of audience.
00:26:33
Speaker
It also makes each space a little less important.
00:26:37
Speaker
like so that's nice too and I see the NFT space or just even this idea of like a virtual art space and what that like how people like but I am understanding that people truly engage with that and I think that's probably a benefit also I teach as well and I teach a lot of game designers so I teach animation and
00:26:58
Speaker
I can tell that in that realm and in that world and that generation, they have a different relationship to sort of the virtual than I do.
00:27:05
Speaker
And I think it's interesting and important to be part of that.
00:27:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:10
Speaker
That was one of our earlier conversations was kind of like about like what it means to own a digital asset and like, what do you do with it?
00:27:21
Speaker
You know, how do you enjoy it?
00:27:22
Speaker
Right.
00:27:22
Speaker
Cause I know a big thing that's important to you is kind of like that people live with your artwork.
00:27:28
Speaker
Uh,
00:27:28
Speaker
and they're able to kind of like live with it and enjoy it.
00:27:31
Speaker
And thinking about owning a digital thing and like only interfacing with it through a screen or whatever platform.
00:27:40
Speaker
I mean, now you can do these, these, you know, they have these frames as well, which is great.
00:27:44
Speaker
But I think for a lot of younger folks, the frame isn't even the thing.
00:27:48
Speaker
It's just, they have a different paradigm around what it means to own something digitally.
00:27:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:56
Speaker
And I had to like shift my thinking on that when I started first collecting NFTs as well.
00:28:02
Speaker
And like I started seeing them in like a box, all of them together on my screen.
00:28:06
Speaker
And I was like, oh, these are mine.
00:28:07
Speaker
I like, I own all of these.
00:28:08
Speaker
I was like, that's kind of cool.
00:28:10
Speaker
You know, like if you like collecting things in general, it doesn't, you know, it does take a little bit of shift in thinking, but it's like, these are, I have these, these are mine.
00:28:18
Speaker
That's like a cool thing or whatever.
00:28:20
Speaker
My inventory, right?
00:28:21
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:28:22
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:23
Speaker
And I think it goes even further for certain people where they actually have a space, a display space for their inventory.
00:28:30
Speaker
Like the guy at the opening who had an Island.
00:28:33
Speaker
Yes.
00:28:33
Speaker
You know?
00:28:34
Speaker
So it's like, I think that's really, really interesting.
00:28:36
Speaker
Like I'm totally fascinated by this actually not interesting so much that I want to do it.
00:28:42
Speaker
Right.
00:28:42
Speaker
But interesting enough that I'm like, I can totally see why that's a real thing.
00:28:48
Speaker
And,
00:28:49
Speaker
it's interesting to conceptualize what does it mean to engage with that?
00:28:52
Speaker
I also think just in other ways, like in my case with animations, I'm like, okay, I actually do think having a file of my video on your phone will be a good thing.
00:29:02
Speaker
Like you stand waiting for the train, you watch that video for a while, you'll chill out or whatever.
00:29:06
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:29:07
Speaker
Like,
00:29:09
Speaker
Yes, I mean, this isn't the same work, but your animations to keep you strong is a specific series, but I do think they're all kind of like that, right?
00:29:18
Speaker
Yeah, but those were actually explicitly for that.
00:29:21
Speaker
And I was like, you can download them, put them on your phone.
00:29:23
Speaker
Like, this is supposed to be your antidote.
00:29:26
Speaker
And I guess I am.
00:29:29
Speaker
somewhat interested in this idea of like what does the art do you know like ultimately what is the functionality of it and it's very different when you look at a painting than when you look at a video and when I think about what does it do especially with the videos I found that one of the things that it can do is kind of like it does take you into this different space in different ways right yeah and we haven't
00:29:52
Speaker
I was just going to say, we also haven't bought a virtual plot yet to build a gallery in the metaverse because I don't know if we're there yet.
00:30:01
Speaker
But I mean, that's a thing that lots of galleries have who do NFTs.
00:30:06
Speaker
They have a virtual space that's on the blockchain.
00:30:10
Speaker
And maybe we'll get there.
00:30:11
Speaker
I don't know.
00:30:11
Speaker
You should, really.
00:30:13
Speaker
That would be logical.
00:30:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:16
Speaker
But speaking of spaces, we do have a physical space.
00:30:19
Speaker
And I thought the full disclosure, I wasn't able to make your opening because I had some family things to take care of in Florida.
00:30:30
Speaker
But I have been living with the show this week because I was gallery sitting.
00:30:37
Speaker
And your show kind of exemplifies that.
00:30:42
Speaker
kind of like what we've been thinking about, what best use of our space, because it's such a tight show.
00:30:50
Speaker
It's a beautiful show, by the way.
00:30:51
Speaker
Thank you.
00:30:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:53
Speaker
Well, thank you for installing it.
00:30:55
Speaker
But the way it's broken down for the listeners is you have the, we have a projection of your animation on a large screen that's floating in the air.
00:31:06
Speaker
And then there's a bench that's made from the remnants of portions of the actual animation, the stop animation.
00:31:13
Speaker
So two of the characters are basically the bench.
00:31:17
Speaker
Right, and then there's a painting, a small painting that kind of has a quick, I guess you kind of pan quickly and you see it, but it is in the actual video animation if you can spot it.
00:31:31
Speaker
So I thought of, I don't know if you know the piece, it's called One in Three Chairs by Joseph Kosuth.
00:31:40
Speaker
It's a conceptual piece from the 70s.
00:31:42
Speaker
I think it hangs in the MoMA, but it's a photograph of a chair
00:31:48
Speaker
with the actual chair in front of it and then a photograph of the dictionary definition of chair.
00:31:55
Speaker
That's kind of what I thought of your, of the show.
00:31:58
Speaker
Cause it's like, you have all these different iterations of the thing and you can't inhabit everything.
00:32:05
Speaker
You can't inhabit any one completely, but you, they all kind of relate.
00:32:09
Speaker
It's, it's a very tightly woven, I,
00:32:13
Speaker
Anybody listening, you should check it out.
00:32:19
Speaker
That was a great description.
00:32:20
Speaker
Very illustrative.
00:32:22
Speaker
Yeah, it's yeah.
00:32:24
Speaker
The more I sit with it, the more I get out of it.
00:32:27
Speaker
It's a very generous, I thought, because it's like.
00:32:32
Speaker
And thinking about your practice the last 10 years, I mean, we'll probably talk about this a little bit later, but the way that you've kind of, the material that you use to make your work is all, is just whatever you have in your studio for the last 10 years and you've never accepted anything else into the studio.
00:32:49
Speaker
And it's just like recycling of these materials.
00:32:52
Speaker
And if there's a painting, there's like 10 painting layers of paintings underneath that have been used for a previous project.
00:33:00
Speaker
So it's very dense and it's very, it's almost like, I don't know.
00:33:05
Speaker
There's history there.
00:33:06
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:33:08
Speaker
Which is nice.
00:33:08
Speaker
I actually, I don't know if you know this, Alex, but the first time that I saw Selena's work was at the Chicago Artists Coalition in Chicago.
Sustainability in Art Creation
00:33:18
Speaker
And it was that that bench was in that show.
00:33:22
Speaker
And I hadn't remembered it until Selena had mentioned it.
00:33:25
Speaker
So I met the characters from the film.
00:33:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:29
Speaker
Before they existed.
00:33:30
Speaker
Yeah, long before they existed.
00:33:32
Speaker
Long before they existed.
00:33:33
Speaker
And then I got to kind of like, because that was 2017, I think is when it was.
00:33:36
Speaker
Yeah, I think so.
00:33:37
Speaker
So I got to re-hang out with them in the exhibition in multiple forms, which was cool.
00:33:43
Speaker
And that's also part of the practice that I like a lot is this whole that because objects sort of show up in different spaces and reconfigure all the time, how they can be part of different pieces all.
00:33:55
Speaker
I mean, that's how a lot of the works relate, right, materially.
00:34:01
Speaker
Also, I mean, the other thing that's kind of important about this is
00:34:04
Speaker
Of course, the fact that the bench is now in New York and not in my studio means that certain things I cannot do in my studio.
00:34:11
Speaker
It's like, you know.
00:34:13
Speaker
We've got your material hostage.
00:34:15
Speaker
Yeah, but I really like that.
00:34:16
Speaker
And right now, it just happens to me that I have multiple shows at the same time.
00:34:20
Speaker
So my studio is actually very empty.
00:34:22
Speaker
There's another transport coming in.
00:34:24
Speaker
And then it'll be pretty much very empty, except for the film that I'm working on.
00:34:28
Speaker
There's nothing left.
00:34:29
Speaker
It's interesting.
00:34:30
Speaker
Like, okay.
00:34:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:35
Speaker
That'll produce something that you probably don't even know about yet, which will be cool.
00:34:39
Speaker
I mean, yeah, and I have to work on my film.
00:34:42
Speaker
And that material is actually set.
00:34:45
Speaker
I know what I'm doing there.
00:34:47
Speaker
You have no distractions.
00:34:49
Speaker
Yeah, less distractions.
00:34:50
Speaker
But it is really interesting.
00:34:51
Speaker
I always like this kind of like, I guess, there's almost something sort of meta about having...
00:34:59
Speaker
everything presses on everything within my practice.
00:35:01
Speaker
Everything influences everything.
00:35:02
Speaker
So every move I make causes another move.
00:35:05
Speaker
And that is what I mean when I think about like,
00:35:08
Speaker
it being an economy and also an ecology, like the studio itself has become kind of this laboratory for both those things.
00:35:15
Speaker
Like what happens in this microcosm when something leaves or when something comes in or all these things, you know, like they, it becomes really a way to understand how these systems actually work.
00:35:30
Speaker
And to go back to the show, it's so tightly interconnected that to me, it creates like this little, like a centrifuge and the offshoot are the NFTs.
00:35:41
Speaker
Like, it's like, that's what's emanating from these things.
00:35:46
Speaker
Oh, that's nice.
00:35:49
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, no, no.
00:35:51
Speaker
And I think that is like in my work, because I think like that, I think very layered.
00:35:55
Speaker
I think about the work as like, okay, well, there's a primary entry and then there's a secondary entry and tertiary and on and on, like there's levels to it.
00:36:03
Speaker
And if you want to, you can get there on your own.
00:36:05
Speaker
I think that's very important to me too, that you don't need to read a book.
00:36:09
Speaker
Like at some point you'll start, like if you watch the film often enough in the space, you'll start, you'll look at the bench at some point and you'll be like, wait a minute, this looks really familiar.
00:36:17
Speaker
Why?
00:36:18
Speaker
Like, and then maybe you'll catch, I think you've only caught one time when the painting is actually in the film.
00:36:23
Speaker
It shows up twice.
00:36:24
Speaker
Oh man.
00:36:25
Speaker
I got to watch it.
00:36:26
Speaker
Well, for the 17th time.
00:36:31
Speaker
So I think there's this kind of like, I like that, but then it was, we had the conversation about bringing in the paintings that are like starring in the film.
00:36:38
Speaker
And I said, no, I don't want that because when both those things are in at the same time, then the point for the film or the point for the paintings, then it doesn't make sense anymore.
00:36:46
Speaker
Like it is all about absence, not having the thing.
00:36:50
Speaker
That's what the film is about.
00:36:51
Speaker
That's a great decision, by the way.
00:36:55
Speaker
Thank you.
00:36:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:56
Speaker
And I think that's where like making art can sometimes be hard because it's very tempting to want to show.
00:37:02
Speaker
I mean, I like those paintings.
00:37:04
Speaker
So it's like really thinking about like, what is the thing in this situation?
00:37:07
Speaker
And in this situation, I even think the fact that eventually you realize that these objects that are in the space are there.
00:37:13
Speaker
And then you start realizing that it's not as clear that the thing isn't, the thing might not just might not be the thing that you thought it was, but it's there, you know,
00:37:24
Speaker
And so with NFTs, I think that that's also really nice to be able to have them anchored in this real, like I like that when you said this, I think in one of the things that you wrote, Joe, was about like you said that how they're anchored in reality, that it's sort of the objects anchor the NFTs back in space and into the hand and that somebody made them, that it's not this kind of like magical poof, showed up.
00:37:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:51
Speaker
And that is important.
00:37:53
Speaker
And that's one of the reasons we like having the physical space is to be able to play with both and the connection between the virtual and the physical, for sure.
00:38:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:03
Speaker
And I think that this is something that's very confusing for us now with like, what is, yeah, like how do you, the relationship between the virtual thing and reality.
00:38:15
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:38:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's real blurry and gray.
00:38:21
Speaker
It's hard.
00:38:23
Speaker
It's not blurry if you believe in the simulation theory that we're all just simulations anyway, so.
00:38:29
Speaker
Yeah, I don't.
00:38:31
Speaker
That's like a God theory.
00:38:34
Speaker
I think it's...
00:38:37
Speaker
I think it's all about action and reaction.
00:38:39
Speaker
I'm super pragmatic somehow in that regard.
00:38:42
Speaker
I think everything is for a reason, but the reason isn't big picture.
00:38:46
Speaker
It's because somebody had a rock in the shoe.
00:38:52
Speaker
And then they said a mean word to the bus driver who then did the next thing and, and, and.
00:38:56
Speaker
That's why things happen.
00:38:59
Speaker
Yeah, I can subscribe to that, I think.
00:39:02
Speaker
How long did it take you to do the stop animation?
00:39:08
Speaker
Well, in this one, it's a little bit hard to say, like cut and dry, because I was working on multiple projects.
00:39:12
Speaker
So I worked on it for a year.
00:39:14
Speaker
Oh, wow.
00:39:16
Speaker
And that is pretty normal for me.
00:39:17
Speaker
Like I work, I often work on things for a long time.
00:39:22
Speaker
Stop motion just takes a long time.
00:39:24
Speaker
But this was, I was simultaneously working in other very work intense films.
00:39:27
Speaker
So I would say probably half a year, realistically.
Pandemic's Influence on Artistic Work
00:39:32
Speaker
And the idea for the film itself really came out of
00:39:38
Speaker
it covers exactly the first year of the pandemic.
00:39:40
Speaker
Actually, I stopped, I finished animating when I got the first shot.
00:39:46
Speaker
Oh, wow.
00:39:47
Speaker
That was like sort of the, I was like, okay.
00:39:49
Speaker
On purpose or it just happened to be?
00:39:51
Speaker
No, no, on purpose.
00:39:52
Speaker
Okay.
00:39:53
Speaker
Because the big part of the purpose of the film for me was that when the pandemic happened, I mean, it was like, I made these paintings and I realized, oh, no openings, but also I realized very quickly that I thought, okay, this is a really,
00:40:07
Speaker
I want to document what this pandemic is also for me.
00:40:10
Speaker
Like I want some kind of document comment on the, because I could tell that this is very profound.
00:40:16
Speaker
It's going to really change everything.
00:40:18
Speaker
That was clear to me right away.
00:40:20
Speaker
And I also was like, this is totally traumatic.
00:40:22
Speaker
And if I don't do something that kind of deals with it, I will have no memory of it because that's what happens with trauma for me.
00:40:29
Speaker
I just get rid of it completely.
00:40:31
Speaker
And then yeah,
00:40:33
Speaker
So I thought, okay, over the year, I just had this like, and I generally do this.
00:40:38
Speaker
The structure was that I had the exhibition set up in one half of my studio.
00:40:42
Speaker
I turned it into a white box and the camera was set up.
00:40:45
Speaker
And then just whenever I felt moved or had any ideas or thoughts,
00:40:49
Speaker
about the pandemic, I would sing into my phone, whatever that is.
00:40:54
Speaker
So all the vocals and the soundscapes, that's just me and my phone and like playing like spoons on the windows.
00:41:00
Speaker
But for a long time, like for the first half year of my studio building, I was the only person here.
00:41:04
Speaker
was completely empty so it was this really eerie thing where I was actually going to the studio every day and working really hard and was in some ways the I mean despite the fact that I have a kid because of the way my partner and I operate we were really didn't really affect we just split the days very very strictly into two parts and both of us worked a lot and I was very undistracted because all my other work kind of
00:41:27
Speaker
or all my other obligations in life, social obligations or work obligations became very much more less.
00:41:34
Speaker
So I was in the studio every day and would just kind of make these sound tracks.
00:41:38
Speaker
And at the same time I had the idea of like, okay, I want to make a stop motion in which way.
00:41:43
Speaker
because I got all these videos in the beginning of the pandemic, all the galleries were like, oh my God, we have these shows up.
00:41:49
Speaker
What are we going to do?
00:41:50
Speaker
Nobody can see these shows.
00:41:51
Speaker
This is really hard.
00:41:52
Speaker
We're going to make virtual exhibitions.
00:41:53
Speaker
And you get these VR videos that were just kind of, it's very hard to translate actual art in a gallery into that space.
00:42:04
Speaker
And so really for me, mostly what it felt like was depressing and did not give me a sense of the work.
00:42:10
Speaker
And it also felt like
00:42:13
Speaker
really desperate, not really dealing with the reality of like, why we're doing this?
00:42:17
Speaker
Why are we suddenly experiencing it like this?
00:42:19
Speaker
It's just like, we're experiencing it like this.
00:42:21
Speaker
And I thought it would be so much more interesting to think about the virtual exhibition as an exhibition in itself that is like meant to be virtual.
00:42:29
Speaker
And so that was the idea of like, okay, I made these paintings, but I wanted to exhibit in real life.
00:42:34
Speaker
Like that was really very important to me.
00:42:36
Speaker
But I knew it wasn't going to happen anytime soon.
Virtual Exhibition Focus
00:42:39
Speaker
And so I thought, all right, I want to make a virtual exhibition around these paintings, but I want to use them as an example of like maximum virtual and minimal, like really acknowledge, like acknowledging the fact, for example, that you cannot see the paintings unless you see the paintings.
00:42:56
Speaker
There is no virtual representation of a painting because a painting is about materiality.
00:43:01
Speaker
And so...
00:43:03
Speaker
Then it had to be like, well, the painters are actors and they have a role within the film and you can get a sense for them, but you can't, like you, the sense that you also get is that you can't get a sense for them, that it's a loss.
00:43:14
Speaker
And so then it becomes about like, well, what, why am I doing this?
00:43:18
Speaker
And so there, there's three participants where it's the,
00:43:22
Speaker
the artist who's the maker, who is definitely part of the film.
00:43:24
Speaker
I think all the characters could be the artist as well.
00:43:27
Speaker
But then there's the gallerist who's the seller, who often is also the artist or actually always, even if you have a gallerist, you have to sell your work to some level.
Complexity of Artist Roles
00:43:38
Speaker
And then there's the consumer, the art lover, the person who comes and sees it, who's the most important person because without them, it's impossible, right?
00:43:46
Speaker
But it's also, that's also the artist.
00:43:49
Speaker
very often.
00:43:50
Speaker
So most often when I go to opening, 99% of the people are my artist community.
00:43:55
Speaker
I don't know who's buying, you know?
00:44:00
Speaker
Of course, it's us too, but that's what I mean where I was like, in the piece, I wanted to show that complexity.
00:44:06
Speaker
And so when I was working on it, I would be in the studio every day and work part of the time on the other film that I was working on.
00:44:11
Speaker
And then I would just go over there and just work a few hours on it, probably every day for a year.
00:44:17
Speaker
But
00:44:18
Speaker
Once I got the shot, I thought, okay, well, this is like, it became clear to me that, okay, well, now I can go out again.
00:44:25
Speaker
Now virtual is actually no longer.
00:44:26
Speaker
Like, especially in the beginning when we got the shots, it just felt like freedom.
00:44:30
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:44:32
Speaker
It's a short-lived one, but it was great for that moment.
00:44:36
Speaker
And so that's when I edited it.
00:44:37
Speaker
And I was like, okay, this has to be done.
00:44:39
Speaker
I think this is it.
00:44:42
Speaker
And I have to say another challenge for me for the film was that it is narrative.
00:44:46
Speaker
So that it is actually in that I did lip sync in it, which isn't something I usually do or I'm very like most of my work is much more abstract, not and doesn't have characters in it in such an obvious way or doesn't use language in that way either.
00:45:00
Speaker
And that was something that I was interested in just as a challenge for myself, like saying like, OK, well,
00:45:07
Speaker
How do I have all these very strong ideas that show up in different ways, show up more in the production side of things?
Integrating Narrative in Abstract Art
00:45:15
Speaker
What happens if I verbalize some of these things?
00:45:17
Speaker
And is there a way that I can find, do that without being too dogmatic?
00:45:23
Speaker
Because I think that is the problem with my belief set is, of course, it's very sort of goody two shoes and that can be a little boring too.
00:45:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:45:32
Speaker
I thought the push and pull of the narrative versus not narrative is one of my favorite aspects of the virtual exhibition film.
00:45:41
Speaker
It's like, it does kind of follow the trajectory, but also it's like, there's these points that are very abstract still, which I think is nice.
00:45:50
Speaker
And I just wanted to say that I caught Joseph a couple of times when we were installing, humming some of the, like the more song-like.
00:45:58
Speaker
I told him that.
00:46:01
Speaker
I know.
00:46:02
Speaker
Very catchy.
00:46:05
Speaker
I, I, I, it was in another exhibition in Chicago while actually at the same time opening was the same night when we were in New York, but it was like a huge, humongous group exhibition and it was on a monitor.
00:46:19
Speaker
And one of the things I said, I was like, well, it really needs to be audible.
00:46:22
Speaker
So you're going to have to, the sound has to be up.
00:46:25
Speaker
That's a condition.
00:46:27
Speaker
And I just saw the documentation of it.
00:46:29
Speaker
And it's so funny because they document video documentation of the whole space,
Conclusion and Farewell
00:46:33
Speaker
but the whole time it's like,
00:46:34
Speaker
capitalism is shit and then i asked them i was like so how was it they're like yeah we're still i still hear it in my mind that's funny uh maybe that's a good spot to pause for this uh this episode yeah and we'll we'll come back and chat more yep sounds good okay cool sounds good
00:47:03
Speaker
Arranging Tangerines is recorded, edited, and produced by Lydian Stater, an evolving curatorial platform based in New York City with a focus on the intersection of contemporary and crypto art.
00:47:13
Speaker
You can learn more at lydianstater.co, find images at Lydian Stater NYC on Instagram, and follow us at Lydian Stater on Twitter.
00:47:20
Speaker
Thanks to Selina Trepp for taking the time to speak to us this week.
00:47:23
Speaker
If you'd like to learn more about her work,
00:47:25
Speaker
Check out our website at selenatrepp.info.
00:47:28
Speaker
Big thanks to Tall Juan, who graciously provides our intro music.
00:47:32
Speaker
His albums are available at tallwan.bandcamp.com.
00:47:35
Speaker
And thank you to you, listener, for spending your valuable time with us.
00:47:40
Speaker
I know what to do.
00:47:41
Speaker
I don't know what to say.
00:47:43
Speaker
I just know I don't want to be like you.
00:47:45
Speaker
I know what to do.
00:47:46
Speaker
I don't know what to say.
00:47:48
Speaker
I just know I don't want to be like you.