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Remi Leroux on sub-ultra mountain running, his love of tennis, progression in the sport, racing shorter but faster, training methods, running lifestyle, opportunity to travel, the pursuit of excellence, finding our limits
173 Plays8 months ago
When I first started running 14 years ago and signed up for races, I fell into the trap of wanting to jump into the next distance too quickly. A 10K turned into a half marathon which then led me to a marathon shortly after. I didn’t know much about the sport back then but if I had to go back I would stick with one distance for a while longer until I was comfortable to move up. Recently I’ve been racing some shorter stuff and I have to say I’m loving it. Preparing with less mileage, running fast, racing strategically and recovering quicker too. So if your goal is a marathon or ultra this year, find a fast 5 or 10K to get you out of your comfort zone, you might surprise yourself.
On this episode of Just In Stride I hit the trails with Elite sub-ultra marathoner, Remi Leroux.
In his youth he loved playing tennis and excelled at it. Despite his success he decided to give it up due to the lack of resources he felt he needed to remain competitive.
In fact, that’s what drew him to running so much. The idea that he could run anytime, anywhere, without training partners and really be in control of his results, made distance running very attractive. Remi progressed quite rapidly, signing up for a 5K and quickly jumped up to longer distances, leading him to the Ultra trails.
After years of ultra marathons, he realized he’d much rather race fast and challenge himself on the shorter mountain tracks. That transition has led him to some impressive results, racing 30 times in the last 2 seasons and finishing on 9 podiums in 2023 alone. Proof that running the distances you’re passionate and training for specific goals could be the key to your own success.
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Transcript
Introduction to Justin's Drive Podcast
00:00:06
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Justin's Drive podcast. I'm your host, Justin Puleze. If you love endurance sports, you've definitely come to the right place. On this show, we'll talk to athletes, coaches, and professionals who can help us reach our true potential. Being a student of distance running for over 10 years and interviewing people in the sport for the last five, I've learned a ton, but there's always more to discover. Everyone has a story, and I know you'll resonate with each of our guests as we embark on this new journey together.
00:00:36
Speaker
Join us at home, on the road, or while you run. Together, we'll have some fun. So follow along on Instagram at justinstridepod and your favorite podcast platform and prepare to be inspired. Come along for the ride with Justin Stride.
00:00:53
Speaker
This episode is presented by our friends at Exact Nutrition, a tasty and healthy way for you to fuel your body before, during, and after a solid training session. I can't leave the house without a few fruit bars in my pocket and they never make it back home. Exact is offering you 50% off your order when you use the code justinstride. So head to exactnutrition.com and fuel your goals today.
Justin's Running Journey and Mistakes
00:01:17
Speaker
When I first started running 14 years ago and signed up for races, I fell into the trap of wanting to jump into the next distance too quickly. A 10k turned into a half marathon which then led me to a marathon shortly after. I didn't know much about the sport back then but if I could go back, I would stick with one distance for a while longer until I was comfortable to move up. Recently I've been racing some shorter stuff and I have to say I'm loving it.
00:01:43
Speaker
preparing with less mileage, running fast, racing strategically, and recovering quicker too. So if your goal is a marathon or ultra this year, find a fast 5 or 10k to get out of your comfort zone. You might surprise yourself.
Remy LaRue's Running Background
00:01:58
Speaker
On this episode of Justin Stride, I hit the trails with elite sub ultra marathoner, Remy LaRue. In his youth, he loved playing tennis and excelled at it. Despite his success, he decided to give it up due to a lack of resources
00:02:12
Speaker
he felt he needed to remain competitive. In fact, that's what drew him to running so much. The idea that he could run anytime, anywhere, without training partners and really be in control of his results, made distance running very attractive. Remy progressed quite rapidly, signing up for a 5k and quickly jumped to longer distances, leading him to ultra trails.
00:02:36
Speaker
After years of ultra marathons, he realized he'd much rather race fast and challenge himself on shorter mountain tracks. That transition has led him to some impressive results, racing 30 times in the last two seasons and finishing on nine podiums in 2023 alone. Proof that running the distances you're passionate about and training for specific goals could be the key to your own success.
00:03:02
Speaker
Hey Remy, welcome to the Justin Strive podcast. How are you? I'm doing good. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Thanks for taking the time and accepting the invite. It came by recommendation of my good friend, Alistair Gardner. And yeah, he said you love to rip up the trail. So I thought why not have you on.
00:03:21
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I've known Alistair for a couple of years now. He's actually, he stayed very close to where I'm staying right now in the eastern townships part of Quebec here. And it's been sad to see him go in the last year, decided to go stay in Europe. But yeah, looking forward to catch up with him probably over the summer.
00:03:43
Speaker
And, you know, you said he, he was staying in the same place that you're staying. So what, what part of Quebec is
Training Environment and Challenges in Quebec
00:03:50
Speaker
that? And are you there? Like, I know he loved it because it was close to the mountains in Quebec and it was great for training, trail running. You find it's like a conducive to that. Yeah. So it's the Eastern townships of Quebec. It's also called the S3. I've actually didn't personally grow up here, but I decided in my later
00:04:12
Speaker
uh, like in my mid twenties to come stay here full time. And I really, for me, this is like the place I love the most on earth. I think for two main reasons. First of all, is the people. I think most of my friends are here. I'm pretty close to my family, but also just the environment around here is very nice. You have some decent mountains, like it's not like the Alps, like you don't have a thousand meters summits or things like that, but.
00:04:37
Speaker
There's always a couple of decent mountains nearby. And we also have a ton of country roads. And I love to train and run on country roads, especially during the winter here in Quebec. You can't really go in the mountains so much or on the trails. And we just have an infinity of dirt country roads with some very nice hills. So yeah, I think in terms of training place to stay, I think this is actually a very nice place to be.
00:05:07
Speaker
Yeah. Cause you bring up a good point and then Quebec is, um, you have it growing up there and, and train there over the winter. It can be quite harsh in the winter and it becomes difficult. So what are, what are some of the, you mentioned like dirt roads and that you're not able to get the vertical that you're, that you're maybe used to and, and warmer climate. So what are some of the workarounds that you use to train in the off season?
00:05:31
Speaker
Yeah, well, this winter was actually very nice compared to the other winters, because usually what happens is that literally every time you have a session, you have to be extremely careful, depending on the conditions, if you can do your session or not. Because if you're just running easy, I don't mind going outside in the snow, or if it's a bit icy or whatever. But whenever I'm doing
Financial Aspects of Being a Sponsored Runner
00:05:56
Speaker
an intensity session, that's where the weather here really becomes a challenge.
00:06:01
Speaker
And so during the peak weeks of winter, I really have to plan things around depending on the weather for the week. So I might change some workouts on Sundays where I see where it's going to be less snow or more hot than usual. So yeah, that's really a big challenge. I also have to do a lot of training on the treadmill usually. This year really actually has been not so bad.
00:06:31
Speaker
But yeah, you just really have to work around the conditions a lot. And like every morning I wake up before a workout and sometimes I have to drive around town, check a couple spots, see if this place, okay, is it dry here? Can I do my workout here? Maybe not. Okay, let's go try this other place. And then a lot of times like eventually I have to resort to the treadmill. But yeah, I mean, this wheelchair has been pretty nice so far.
00:06:59
Speaker
And you do like, so you do like scouting for your, for your workouts to see if the conditions are good enough. Yeah. I mean, I have a good friend, training partner and yet here with who I do a lot of training sessions. And we have like these. Probably like four or five spots around town where we know it's probably going to be the better places to do workouts. And yet a couple of times this winter, we had to go check like these four or five spots. And then yeah, sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't work out.
00:07:29
Speaker
But yeah, you have to know the area pretty well to know where to train. So like you're pro trail runners and not everyone has the luxury of doing that, right? So you're doing this full time.
00:07:41
Speaker
And no, I'm always pretty careful with that in the sense that I don't like to say that I'm a professional runner because I think people assume that professional runner means that you make a full time living from this part. Yeah. I think a lot of people in my position would
Balancing Running with Other Responsibilities
00:07:56
Speaker
say that they're a professional runner because I do. Um, like, I guess part of my income is from running, but I also have to work at part time. I'm also a translator online, but, um,
00:08:10
Speaker
Yeah, I think I'm pretty careful with that. I think there's already a lot of confusion around how much money athletes make. So I wouldn't feel comfortable just saying that I'm a professional runner because I don't want to add even more confusion to that. But yeah, and I also think, yeah, that's what I have to say about that. But maybe it's like not as glamorous as people think. I think, you know, you have a few sponsors that maybe support you and, you know, with gear for sure.
00:08:39
Speaker
maybe in other ways, like can you paint maybe a picture of what that means to be a professional?
00:08:48
Speaker
I'm very lucky to be sponsored by Meryl, who offers very good support. They give financial incentives and that really helps. Another thing which we're probably going to touch on later is that most of the races that I do are part of a series. It's like the World Mountain Running Association, the World Cup of Mountain Running.
00:09:09
Speaker
and many of these races have pretty good prize money well not necessarily big prize money but since it's shorter races you can pretty much race every week and every week has prize money so it can actually be pretty good and also like the world cup itself gives pretty good support in terms of some travel help accommodation food once you're there so you're basically not really losing money you're only earning money when you're there so i think
00:09:38
Speaker
if you if I combine, let's say, my help that I get from Merrill, and the help I get from the races that I do through prize money, it makes a decent income, but not enough to be able to live from this 100%. And then you got your side gig. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like the best side gig ever. Because I finished my studies in education, but kind of decided to put that on pause for now, just because I kind of realized that
00:10:06
Speaker
If I teach and training like full time, it's very difficult. Like just in terms of energy, it's teaching. I really love teaching and I really miss it, but it requires a lot of energy. And I feel like it just makes training so much more difficult. Whereas now my job is translating online so I can just between workouts, I can just totally recover and just sit back, relax and work. And I can work from whenever I want.
00:10:35
Speaker
wherever I want, whenever I want also, whatever time I want. So especially now, I feel like I have a pretty structured like training routine every week. And I feel like recovery is just very more is very important, especially nowadays, and I kind of realized that
00:10:53
Speaker
just having the luxury of being able to wake up, but whenever my body is ready to wake up is extremely useful and really helps a lot. So yeah, that's what I've been doing since pretty much last year now.
00:11:07
Speaker
But that takes another level of discipline too, right? When everything's kind of variable and nothing's fixed, like you can train whenever you want. You can work whenever you want. You can do whatever you want pretty much. So does that create its own set of challenges? Are you better to set a schedule, like a loose schedule? Like, you know, these are my working hours. These are my training hours type of thing.
00:11:29
Speaker
I think I'm someone who really appreciates the routine of just doing the same thing over and over every day. So I think I kind of have this routine of I wake up, work for an hour or two, digest my breakfast, go for my first training, come back, eat lunch, work a bit in the afternoon, then go back for my second training and then I'm off for the rest of the day.
00:11:54
Speaker
Yeah, sometimes it can be a bit challenging in the sense that sometimes I wake up and it's like, oh, well, you know, I could do my training at 11. I could do my training at noon. Like who cares? Like, but, uh, yeah, no, I think I've just got getting used to the routine every day now. And sometimes I wish I had a bit more like variety in, in, in my life in that sense. But at the same time, I think I also like that the routine of just doing the same thing over and over again.
00:12:21
Speaker
Yeah, it works for you, it sounds like. So that's, that's also great. So you live in this part of correct now, but so where did you grow up? Were you an active kid? Were you running ever since you could remember kind of thing or did it only develop later? I've always been active, but running like as a specific sport only has, has come in my life at the age of 19. And I'm 26 now.
00:12:49
Speaker
And so I used to grow up not near the mountains at all. I used to grow up pretty close to Montreal on the South Shore of Montreal, where there's pretty much no mountains whatsoever. And yeah, I grew up and did a ton of different sports. My parents were really trying to get me as active as possible. So I used to play all the typical Quebec sports, like skiing, hockey, basketball, soccer, all these kinds of stuff.
00:13:14
Speaker
And eventually actually decided to focus on tennis, which was something I really enjoyed. And that's what I focused on between the ages of like 12 to 19 and played pretty competitively at a relatively high level like provincial and eventually national level.
00:13:33
Speaker
And then after that, at the age of 19, I kind of like had the decision, had to make the decision either I quit tennis or I continue tennis in the States at the university. I had some scholarships, not like full-time scholarships to be there, but I had some decent help to go there and went to visit some universities there and sort of decided to
00:13:57
Speaker
it didn't really click for me so I kind of decided to stay in Quebec and yeah if you want to pursue tennis at the age of 19 and stay in Quebec it's pretty much impossible so I've had to quit tennis and it's pretty soon after that that I kind of I think within like a couple months of quitting tennis that I really had this sort of emptiness inside of me of so much physical energy and just
00:14:22
Speaker
I miss the kind of the routine of getting out every day to train. And that's where I discovered running pretty much. Why is it hard to make it in tennis in Quebec? Is it the competition? Is it the programs? It's just that it's a sport that requires a lot of external help to continue to train.
00:14:43
Speaker
You need a coach, you need training partners, you need facilities, especially during the winter time, you have to train indoors. And that's pretty expensive. Whereas if you're in the States, then you know, it's all part of the college program. So it's much easier. And especially training partners, like at some point, they're
00:15:04
Speaker
There aren't many, I guess, players at that age that continue to pursue tennis, like at a high level in Quebec. Most of them, like just, yeah, they go either to Europe or the US. And yeah, it was just going to be way too expensive for me to all do these, like without being part of like a big program here, just having to like hire a coach, hire, well, not hire training partners, but like fine training partners. And yeah, it was just not going to be feasible for me.
00:15:34
Speaker
I think actually now it's not so bad. Like there's a couple of Quebec schools that offers pretty decent programs, but at least when a couple of years ago, I didn't feel like it was much the case. Um, so yeah, so pretty much had to quit then it was pretty heartbreaking to have to quit tennis. Cause I was really into it. I feel like I was as motivated by tennis then that I am by running now. And yeah, it was pretty heartbreaking. And I think that's part of the reason why I really enjoyed running is because running is the most.
00:16:05
Speaker
You don't need like these external things like you can pretty much go train whenever you want by yourself without having to rely on other people so much. And yeah, I think that's part of the reason why I really enjoyed running at first.
00:16:22
Speaker
Do you think that your tennis career or for as long as you've played tennis, do you think agility wise has maybe given you some skills that help you in trail running at all? It might sound like weird because you're on a court and then you're in the woods or on trails, but I just feel like the footwork might be something that could help you.
00:16:42
Speaker
Well, I think specifically agility. I don't think so much because I'm actually really bad at like the technical stuff on trails. Okay. But it definitely helped for the endurance. And I think I'm not sure if it's a cause or a consequence. But when I used to play tennis, I it was already clear that I was more like the endurance kind of player.
00:17:04
Speaker
I was called a pusher. A pusher is the kind of player that just returns the balls that kind of like never attacks, never take any risks, but I just kind of like stay behind the baseline at the back of the court and just return everything. Like I wanted to rally, the rallies just to be as long as possible. And that was how I would win matches. So I think that was already a pretty good indicator of, okay, like probably endurance is where I am the better at. And so, yeah, so I think,
00:17:33
Speaker
It is like a sport that's pretty endurance for sure. It's more like high end. You're kind of like doing a lot of short sprints, like a back to back, but it still works your heart rate pretty high. And I think that definitely helped me going into running because when I started running, it was like, I was definitely not starting from zero. Like I had this pretty good base of, uh, of training behind me. Um,
00:18:00
Speaker
I think other things that Dennis brought me was also the mental aspect of just being like in a competitive mood before like a tournament. I think it's very similar to being in a sort of competitive in the zone mood when you're getting ready for a race. So I think that definitely helps. And also just like the discipline of getting up every morning and going into training and doing the same thing the next day, day in, day out, week out, weekend week out pretty much all the time.
00:18:27
Speaker
I think that definitely helped me to become a better runner afterwards. Yeah, you don't.
00:18:33
Speaker
I don't know if I,
Learning from Mistakes in Running
00:18:34
Speaker
well, I don't think I've ever had a tennis player per se on this, on the podcast, but now I'm thinking about how it can relate in so many ways. And like you brought up some stuff that's interesting. And I don't know if I ever, if you ever see tennis as an endurance sport, but now that you mention it, it's kind of like interval work, you know, between the rallies and stuff. And I didn't know this term, like pusher. And I think that's super interesting that you could be a player that,
00:19:01
Speaker
you know that your strength is to go long rather than just to finish the games quickly. And is that common between players? Yeah, I think especially at my later years in tennis, I felt like I was actually very disadvantaged by that. Because when I was younger, let's say when I was 14 or 15,
00:19:26
Speaker
We're still young where we don't have like very strong muscles. So I would be, I was able to win matches like that. But when I got to like 17, 18, and you know, like we finished puberty and like, you know, the guys are much bigger, much stronger now.
00:19:42
Speaker
I definitely felt like I got overpowered a lot of times. And that was pretty frustrating, like just to lose a match and feel like I didn't, I wasn't even tired physically just because the other player would, you know, have a very strong serve, very strong forehand and the rallies would last like two or three shots every time. And it was either him who would do like a very big shot and I wouldn't be able to return it or he would do a mistake.
00:20:07
Speaker
And that was pretty frustrating, like to lose matches and be like, wow, I didn't do anything. I just withdrew the balls and he was in control of either he was winning or losing. And yeah, that's also another reason I love running so much is that you really only have yourself to blame afterwards and you're really in control of how your race will go. Yeah. Like in that case, he's in control of the,
00:20:32
Speaker
in both ways, either he's precise with power or the power is too much and he messes up because of it. But yeah, where you stand is like, you're just there to take the punch. Yeah, exactly. Okay.
00:20:50
Speaker
So you can either counter or not, but it's kind of up to him. And so what was your intro to running like? You know, you said you had a baseline for it. Do you remember a distinct moment where you were like, I'm just going to go run? Or was it a friend that was running already? It really started by myself and very instinctively. I just I can't remember like the first run I ever did, but I'm sure it was something like I was at home and I was like,
00:21:18
Speaker
had so much physical energy that I felt like I needed to spend. So it just felt like the most natural thing to do to just go out and start running. But when I started running, I had.
00:21:29
Speaker
Absolutely no idea what I was doing. I mean, I would go out and, you know, sweatshirts, sweatpants, tennis shoes would go out way too fast. And yeah, that's really like that that I started running. I had no idea. Like I didn't follow anyone. I had none of my friends that would run. I didn't really see any videos on like the internet about it and just started running and really enjoyed it very quickly.
00:21:58
Speaker
And then, yeah, just started to do my first 5Ks, some 5K road races, then some 10K road races. And I think, well, I'm going to fast forward a bit now, but I think when I look back, something I regret is that every time I would finish a race, I would always look for the next challenge. And for me, the next challenge was always like, let's do a longer distance. Instead of being like, OK, I ran this time for 5K,
00:22:26
Speaker
I'm going to try to train hard to be able to run that time much faster, to run that distance much faster. My first reaction was always like, all right, I did a 5K, now I can do a 10K. And then after that, a half marathon, and eventually led to a marathon. And after the marathon, OK, let's do ultras now.
00:22:46
Speaker
And within even like a year and a half into running, I was kind of focused, if you want, specializing in the sort of 50K to 50 mile range, I guess, in trail running. And yeah, that's pretty much how I was introduced to running and slowly sort of started doing more research on how to train. Still looking back now, I feel like I did a lot of mistakes because, you know, I didn't have a coach or anything.
00:23:14
Speaker
I still think I did a lot of mistakes during that time, but yeah, so kind of decided to focus on the 50K to 50 mile range and that's what I did for at least five, six years until like two years ago where I sort of did the switch to shorter distances.
00:23:31
Speaker
But yeah, looking back, I think it's a bit unfortunate that I did these longer distances because I feel like those kind of distances, it's always very exciting when you sign up for the race. Like you're like, it's going to be so cool. I'm going to run this 80 kilometer race across this mountain and do this epic loop. And it's going to be so cool. But when I look back on all the ultra races that I've done, I don't remember like actually waking up in the morning and being like legitimately
00:24:00
Speaker
excited to race. I feel like I really enjoy the training part of it, but the racing part of an ultra just never really clicked for me. And yeah, I kind of feel like it was just like, well, I'm training so much so might as well race. But yeah, looking back on it, I really wish I would have discovered these shorter mountain running events that I'm doing now much earlier in my career.
00:24:24
Speaker
Yeah. Why do you think, cause I think that's interesting. And my, my start was kind of the same sweat pants and sweatshirt. And I started running with a group that eventually got me to some more performance clothes, but why do you think, did you have some kind of idea as to why people want to jump to the next thing? Cause I did, you know, what did I do? I did a 10 K and then I did, like you, I went to the half.
00:24:50
Speaker
I did a 10 kick as I was invited. Then I went to the half. Then I did halves once a year for five years or so in Ottawa. I ran that Ottawa half. And then it evolved from there, but I think it's just people just want to do the marathon because they think it's sexy, but it kind of takes away the fact that we need to get ourselves to a certain level of fitness to be able to
00:25:16
Speaker
take on those bigger challenges. So like you said, running five Ks, multiple five Ks until we get comfortable, let's say, or shorter stuff. Also, recovery is a lot easier too. So I guess my question for you is like, do you have any idea why that would have been that was for you or why people
00:25:35
Speaker
lean that way. I can think of two reasons. I think, first of all, I think it's just easier for ourselves. It's much more difficult to, for example, train for a couple months, do a certain time at, for example, a 5k race. It's much more difficult to be like, okay, I'm going to do that again and try to run faster.
00:25:53
Speaker
Then to just sort of use the easy route and be like, well, I'm just going to do a longer distance now. And that's going to be my next challenge. So I think it's, it's just kind of more easier for ourselves to do that. And the second thing, especially in like the trail running world, I think the focus is a lot on the ultras. Like if you look at the media, it just feels like.
00:26:14
Speaker
everyone talks about like the 100 mile distances and all these ultra races. And when you look at the even races in Quebec, like we have a couple pretty decent, decent size events, like a ultra trail of Canada or Quebec mega trail. But they're like the races that are like put at the front of these races, oftentimes are the longer distances.
00:26:38
Speaker
So when I personally got into running, I wanted to do in some way the real events if you want. And in my mind, the real events was like at least 50Ks. So I think, yeah, I think the media played a huge part into that and still today.
00:26:56
Speaker
I mean, I know a lot of people who don't even know like that the sub ultra stuff exists or they don't really yet. They don't really, cause when you look at media, like the mainstream media, if you want trail running is kind of equates to ultra running, which is not really the case. Yeah.
00:27:16
Speaker
I agree with you a hundred percent. And I think that, yeah, I think it's a shame, you know, cause a marathon doesn't make you a runner necessarily. And just like an ultra doesn't make you a trail runner. Let's say, um, yeah. And I think a lot of people would enjoy much more like the shorter distances, especially what I'm doing now. I think a lot of people that come from a road or even track background would actually really enjoy the kind of mountain running stuff that I'm doing now. But.
00:27:44
Speaker
Like they really enjoy running on trails, but they don't want to compete in trails because their perception of competing in trails means like doing like at least five hour races in duration. And they're just, I mean, obviously that's not something that interests them. But yeah, like the type of event that I'm doing now is it's kind of like athletics in a way, like you don't have any mandatory gear.
00:28:08
Speaker
You're in split shorts, you're in the tank top and very simple, very short, usually less than an hour race. And I think a lot of people would, I mean, at least I know that for me personally, I really wish that I would have discovered these races like six years ago. Cause I know that I would have much more appreciated my racing experiences with this. And you get to race more too, right? So I think similar to tennis, you probably compete a lot and.
00:28:36
Speaker
When you're racing shorter distances, you can race a lot or put your training to the test. Even though it's faster, recovery is a bit easier so you can do more of them. Yeah, 100%. I think especially being someone that's pretty competitive and I want to make this my career as much as possible. That's also something that I realized is that it puts a lot of pressure on yourself. If you have, for example,
00:29:01
Speaker
Let's say a 50 mile race, like you kind of have to be able to have a good day on race day because or else it's just like, well, shoot, I, what do I do now? I go back to training and I start again in like three, four months. Like that really sucks. And also, especially coming from Quebec where most of like the.
00:29:21
Speaker
the big races, like you pretty much have to travel internationally for them. That's actually kind of part of the reason why I did the switch to shorter mountain running events. But like I did the OCC back in 2022, OCC, which is like the shorter ultra the week of UTMB. It's like the 55 kilometer race. And I trained all summer for that race. I was super well prepared. I was
00:29:46
Speaker
I did a pretty big investment just to go out there to do the race itself and I saw it kind of like something that could have helped my career and just really had a bad day.
00:29:58
Speaker
on race day due to like some poor strategic mistakes and it just really sucked afterwards because it's like well I mean I didn't make the investment just from like a curious standpoint it was still like a very good experience but still like after the race I was like well kind of sucks to have made this investment of time of like the past like months and also of money to be there and then wow just didn't work out and what do I do now I
00:30:24
Speaker
go try again in like a couple months and do another investment to try to race another time. And that's where I kind of discovered, well, you know, what's pretty nice about mountain running is that you can do one trip, but on that trip, you can race every weekend. And that's what I did last year. I spent pretty much three months in Europe in total during the summer and did
00:30:48
Speaker
a race pretty much every week. I think I raced like 20 races last year. Um, so yeah, that's, that's definitely a huge advantage of just having a ton of opportunities to race and just prove to yourself that, you know, you're, you're at a pretty high level. So how is it working in mountain running? Cause you race so often. So is it like.
00:31:10
Speaker
there's a season standing, do you have to race a certain number of races? This is new to me, probably to a lot of people listening. Just how, like you just mentioned, we all know the hundred milers, we all know the marathons, but we had Grayson Murphy on the show too. And I thought that was super interesting because she was kind of shedding light on, it's almost like this new sport.
00:31:36
Speaker
Yeah, no, totally. I think when you look at sub ultra trail running, if you want, there's kind of like three main, three main series, like circuits of races.
Mountain Running Formats and Training Diversity
00:31:47
Speaker
There's the one that probably the most people know about is a golden trail series. And then there's sky running series. Sky running is more like the technical stuff. And then the third one is the world mountain running cup.
00:32:01
Speaker
organized by WMRA, World Mountain Running Association, which is recognized by World Athletics. And that's the series that I'm doing. And I think mountain running, just to give maybe a bit more insight into what exactly mountain running is, what makes mountain running unique compared to
00:32:20
Speaker
trail running compared to, for example, sky running or a golden trail series is that mountain running is very, it's kind of like athletics, but in the mountains. So the courses are generally not too technical. There's no mandatory gear, usually no poles allowed.
00:32:40
Speaker
And, but it's very steep. So there's kind of like three main formats. There's a vertical race. So that's all uphill. Then you have classic up-down. So that's usually you go up, you go down and that's it. And then you have the long, but long is relative. It's usually less than like 35 kilometers. I think the longer a race is as here as a now.
00:33:01
Speaker
And yeah, so it's all part of this sort of World Cup organized by the WMRA, which goes from June to October. And every year the races change a bit, but it's pretty much all in Europe that the races take place. And yeah, it's.
00:33:23
Speaker
remember exactly. Last year, I think you had to, they took like your six best results. And I think I had raised like mine races on the circuit. And I did also some other mountain races, but that were not part of the World Cup. And yeah, so it's races pretty much across Europe. The only race that's not in Europe is Broken Arrow in the US, which I'm going to do this year, which is in California. But yeah, it's very nice because
00:33:52
Speaker
Once you're in Europe, you just I'm there and I just every weekend I do the race and then I travel the next weekend to do another race. So it's very cool. And also it kind of like.
00:34:04
Speaker
You get to know the community there of runners because most of the runners that participate in the World Cup are there for obviously more than one race. It creates this mini community of international runners that meet up every week to race. It's pretty fun because most of the people arrive at the race venue
00:34:27
Speaker
pretty much a week in advance because we were there for, because we kind of traveled from the race of the previous week. So it's kind of nice to just like bond with all the other runners for the week coming into the race and then yeah, get to it on race day. And how do you find that community? Do you find these athletes are, I know the trail community in general, I think is a little bit more laid back. Do you find it's the same in this style of racing and running also?
00:34:57
Speaker
I really enjoy the culture of mountain running, like from the organizations, but also from the runners themselves. I think the main value that kind of, I feel a lot among runners is like authenticity. Like it's not, um, uh, I guess mountain running isn't like hyper media ties. And I think there, there's some disadvantages to that, but I think an advantage to that is that I sort of makes the sport more authentic in a way.
00:35:27
Speaker
And I definitely feel that among the runners, but yeah, I mean, people are very competitive. That's for sure. I think maybe that's a bit of a difference between trail running and mountain running. When you look at trail running, I feel like sometimes it's also, it's almost like a bit taboo to talk about like the really competitive. I feel like, you know, you see some people finishing hand in hand and it's more like.
00:35:48
Speaker
this sort of ambiance, whereas in mountain running, you'll never see people finishing together. And it's nothing against those other people. It's actually, I think, something I really love about these shorter things. It's very competitive and
00:36:04
Speaker
you just really want to beat all the other runners on the race. And a lot of times, like, races finishes, like, the runners finish within only a couple seconds of each other. And that's something that's really exciting. So there's definitely, like, this more competitive vibe, if you want, on a race day. But when it's not race day, I mean, everyone is super friendly, and that's pretty nice. I mean, it's been actually really cool to spend a lot of time with some runners with whom
00:36:33
Speaker
I've kind of got back and forth a lot last year. And it's pretty nice because you're roommates and you train with these people. But then when it's race day, it's like you want to be that person. And it's pretty cool to have these rivalries where sometimes you win, sometimes you lose against certain runners. And that really forces you to finish the race and give your all out completely.
00:37:02
Speaker
And what would you say is like, because you're racing so frequently, do you often land in the same range of positions or does it vary from race to race based on your strengths? I'm just curious about that. Yeah, well that's the interesting part. I think compared to, for example, road running,
00:37:23
Speaker
Once you're at a certain level, it's like, well, you're pretty much at least like something dramatic happens on race that you're pretty much always going to finish in a certain position. But what's interesting about mountain running is that every course is just a bit different. So that's why, for example, some runners, sometimes I would beat them if the course was more according to my strengths. But then sometimes if, for example, if it was maybe a bit more technical, maybe there was a bit more downhill, which is something I'm less good at compared to the uphill.
00:37:54
Speaker
then maybe they would have that better on me. So that's also another thing that's really exciting about it. It's pretty rare to have a runner in mountain running that's going to dominate every race just because every race has its own uniqueness and challenges. And do you feel, you know, because of, you know, you're, you're training against people or you're racing against people that live in different parts of the world.
00:38:19
Speaker
You know, some people make that an excuse, you know, as to how they can get to a certain level. Well, did these guys, you know, train in the ops and you're training, you know, where you train, which isn't, you don't nearly have the same, uh, maybe profile of mountains nearby. Um, what would you say? I don't think it's a big disadvantage. Um, actually like looking at all the other top runners, a lot of them are.
00:38:48
Speaker
come from a background of tracks and road and do a lot of their training on the road. Well, that's also something that's very particular about this sport is that people have so much different backgrounds. Like you have people that come from a schema, you have people that come from cross country track roads, trail running, like myself ultra running if you want.
00:39:09
Speaker
Yeah, no, I don't think it's necessarily like, I know a lot of these runners with who I compete with who actually run more on flat than I do. So it's a, I don't think it's a huge advantage, especially for mountain running. If I would do like ultra running, like races that, you know, you climb, like for example, more than 3000 meters during a race.
00:39:30
Speaker
then I think it's pretty useful. But the most gain that you get on one climb usually is a thousand kilometers during a mountain race. And I think just here in Quebec, like we have mountains that where you can climb 500 meters, one shot. And for me in terms of training, I think that's, that's, that's well enough. Okay. Yeah. Cause I think also I have, maybe I have some thoughts about how I would train for something like this and
00:39:58
Speaker
The assumption is that I would need to do a lot of climbing because you have to, you know, get up a steep, you know, a high elevation and a short distance. So I'd feel like I would need to run up mountains all day. But the more I hear, the less that sounds like the case. You really have to work on your speed.
00:40:20
Speaker
Yeah, for sure, there's some speed, but there's also a lot of uphill running. But I think, especially for me, I'm someone who I rarely do intensity sessions where it's very long intervals. I rarely will do, for example, the 40-minute tempo. I'll always do, let's say, six by six minutes going uphill, for example. And even though the mountain, for example, here,
00:40:46
Speaker
pretty close to our third, which is like 500 meters from bottom to top. And I can do those six by six minutes all going uphill if I take the recovery in between going downhill. So for example, if I do six minutes up, then two minutes down a bit, then six minutes up again. I don't know if it makes sense, but like I can do all my intervals going uphill.
00:41:08
Speaker
And I'll probably climb, let's say 700 meters in total because of like all my descending. And so I don't think it's, I mean, for sure it might be useful for like, if I do longer workouts to have even more uphill, but for what I'm doing, I don't think it's a huge disadvantage to do that. But yeah, you talked about training. It's really interesting to see how different people train. And that's what I realized last year is that, you know,
00:41:35
Speaker
Some of these runners do track workouts every week. Some of these other runners do only uphill stuff. Some people really like to work on their technical skills and it's very different how people train from one person to another. So what you're saying is you can run your six minutes up and then two minutes down and go again six minutes up. So your two minutes is the recovery and then
00:41:58
Speaker
by doing that, you kind of cover the whole the whole climb. I think that's cool. And so is it a noticeable difference between how you train for, you know, you say, you know, you said there's a like a lot of people with this track background and you're you're kind of.
00:42:12
Speaker
you're coming from the opposite end. So how did your training vary? Do you have a coach? How did you just, how did you figure out how to train? You know, cause the training is somewhat different of course. Yeah, totally. It's total change actually. When I used to do ultras, I used to be very big on volume. And I think that really helped me today, but I used to be really big on volume and almost no intensity sessions. I can maybe one,
00:42:38
Speaker
intensity session or maybe two per week, but it used to be like not a very big session. Whereas now the focus is really much on the intensity days and all the other days are kind of, I view them as. Accumulating volume, but, but by trying, but by making sure that I'm recovering for my next intensity session pretty much. So basically the way I train now is that the Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday, I do intensity sessions.
00:43:07
Speaker
And all the other days are kind of like, I still run every day and double pretty much every day, but all the other days are just to make sure that I'm well recovered for my next intensity sessions. And yeah, I think having this big, aerobic base, like this background of doing a lot of volume has really helped me because now I'm still doing a decent amount of volume, but a bit less than before.
00:43:32
Speaker
But the volume in itself isn't very much of a stress for me because I'm so used to it. But now the stress is to, okay, I do this volume. Now let's add some intensity. I think a lot of people, they struggle because they kind of have two stresses. Like one, they have to.
00:43:51
Speaker
have a decent amount of volume, plus they have to do the intensity. But for me, I feel like the volume is kind of taken care of because of my past in the sport. And now it's really the intensity. But it's a very different mindset in the sense that I really can't screw things up in a sense. Like when I used to do ultras, I feel like a lot of days I would just go out and maybe during the run, I would feel good.
00:44:20
Speaker
Okay, maybe I'll run an hour more than I had planned, but now I just, I really can't do that because on my recovery days between workouts, if I run an hour too much, then I'm not going to be recovered well enough for my next workout. And then my next workout won't be good. And it's just going to spiral and yeah, just it's a lot more, um.
00:44:43
Speaker
It's I do a less volume, but I find it much more difficult now to train. And I really just, I can't screw things up with the recovery. So I got two questions. How do you recover?
00:44:56
Speaker
with that much intensity. You know, you know, cause if I'm thinking about our audience, endurance sports and you know, maybe I'll, I'm thinking I'm, I feel, I don't know this for sure, but that a lot of people are training for halves and fulls and kind of ultra distance. So maybe they should be doing less intensity, maybe one word, one speed work a week, uh, making it a bit easier to recover from. But when you're, you have three of them, you really got to pay attention
00:45:24
Speaker
I'm feeling that you got to pay attention to how you recover. And so what are your tips on that? I think, yeah, when you do intensity sessions, you always have to keep a decent amount of volume. It might seem a bit ironic because I guess the solution is kind of to run more in a sense, because if you do a lot of intensity sessions, but you don't have volume to sort of back it up.
Recovery Tips and Training Insights
00:45:48
Speaker
you're not going to recover well from your intensity sessions. So I think the basic rule is kind of to do at least 80% of your volume at an easy effort and 20% at the high intensity effort. So I think it's, whenever you're adding intensity, you always have to make sure that you're always, you're also backing it up with some volume. But in terms of recovery, I think one thing I like to do a lot, especially in the wintertime is to do some biking on Zwift.
00:46:16
Speaker
So on my recovery days, I'll double my afternoon session with just an easy spin on the bike. I think it's, you know, your heart doesn't really know the difference, whether you're biking or running. So it's just, for example, you can spend one hour on the bike and your legs have no pounding. So it's no additional like physical damage there, but you still worked your aerobic system for an hour, for example.
00:46:41
Speaker
So that's the main thing. I think something I've tried to work on also this year has been to eat very soon after my sessions. So at least within half an hour, eat something. And an hour after that, at the maximum an hour after that, at least eat an actual consistent meal. I think that's helped a lot. And just in general, eat a ton. I think that's always the thing I've always said to myself.
00:47:11
Speaker
The most important thing with nutrition is just to eat a lot. I'll never restrict myself with calories or whatever. It's just whenever I'm hungry, when in doubt, just eat. And yeah, sometimes, yeah, I think that's really, really important. And I think we don't realize how much we need to eat sometimes. Like we feel like we were eating too much. Like sometimes when I eat with friends and family, they're like,
00:47:37
Speaker
you're eating so much and you kind of like have to not let that get into your head and just be like, oh no, this is what I need to do. And it's much better to eat too much than not enough. So I think that's the best thing I think I can tell for recovery. And are you doing, you know, are you doing strength work and
00:47:58
Speaker
And, you know, rolling and that kind of stuff too. Are you doing drills before your workouts and stuff? Yeah, I have a mini routine that I do before every single run that I do. It's probably only like 10 minutes, but it's mainly to activate my glutes and to, uh, uh, sort of like some active, uh, active stretching for my hips. It's just like, personally, those are the type of injuries that I have the most. So I know that those are the types of exercises that I need to do.
00:48:26
Speaker
But apart from that, I don't do too much in terms of actual strength. I do Sunday afternoon, I'll do more like a...
00:48:34
Speaker
a strength workout if you want of about 30 to 40 minutes, but it's really nothing too scientific. Like I don't really use any added weights. It's just like lunges and squats. Something that I've included this year a bit more is plyometrics. I think a lot of the African runners do a ton of that. And I think especially for mountain running, it's something that can be pretty useful. So it's very simple. It's just like, for example, jumping on one leg and
00:49:04
Speaker
doing that for 30 seconds and doing multiple repeats of that. And I think that's actually helped quite a lot in terms of my biomechanics this year. Just looking at like some videos that, for example, some friends took of me, I feel like my stride is a lot more bouncy. And I think that's something that takes really a short amount of time. Like just a plyometrics part of my Sunday workout is maybe like 10 to 15 minutes. But I think that 10 to 15 minutes actually does make a pretty big
00:49:35
Speaker
concrete difference in the way I run. Yeah. I mean, that makes total sense too. Just adding some variety and some change to the way you're preparing for your running, that's complimentary. So yeah, I think you bring up a good point. I think even if it's just once a week
00:49:58
Speaker
It can make a huge impact, just body weight stuff. And, uh, yeah, it's something small. You gotta think about all the little things too, right? Yeah. And I've, I'm not very good at the strength stuff. Cause I think my philosophy is always like, I want to do strength, but at the same time, I don't want to add more, uh, physical stress that would make me more tired, like for my next workout.
00:50:24
Speaker
So it's kind of like a very delicate balance between doing enough so that you're not injured and you become stronger, but also you don't want to do too much and then be super tired like for your next workout. So yeah, there's definitely a delicate balance there. You mentioned the African runners do more plyometrics. Are there other things you've learned from the way people train in other parts of the world? Yes. Oh yes. Well, I guess,
00:50:52
Speaker
The way I train now is kind of following the Norwegian model, which is a lot of threshold training. So yeah, I think that's, I mean, I'm a very big geek in terms of numbers and all that kind of stuff. And I coach myself, but I'm also helped by a friend of mine, maybe you know him, David Jekker. Yeah.
00:51:13
Speaker
Okay, so David kind of like, he's technically my coach, I guess I do write my own training plans. And he's always there to just, if I have any questions, or just to have someone to look at my training and be like, okay, that's really stupid, you should do these types of changes, for example. But I think, like David, I'm someone who's really, I really like to research these kind of things. And I really enjoy the process of like, you know,
00:51:40
Speaker
getting the numbers right and really planning my trainings very specifically. So yeah, just I guess from the Norwegian model that's really
00:51:50
Speaker
completely changed the way that I've changed in the last year or so. David's pretty crazy in his methods and certain things. I got a chance to speak with him a few times. You learn a few things, that's for sure, or some things to try. Well, I love it because with David, it's really nice because you can talk about whatever. I can talk to him about the altitude acclimatation or heat acclimatation, heart rate viability.
00:52:20
Speaker
type of like scientific things if you want and he's gonna either have an answer for it or be super interested by it then find an answer to it. So I think it's really nice to have someone like in your team that's like that. Yeah and how do you measure, you mentioned the numbers and geeking out on that stuff, but how do you measure the speed? Do you measure threshold by how
00:52:44
Speaker
by listening to your body or are you following a number? Because I think this is something, whether you're doing a marathon, ultra, or mountain running, I think it's important you see a lot of runners out there, you know, number watching. Yeah, that's a really good question. And I'm not by feeling at all. To be honest, I'd rather, I'm more
00:53:10
Speaker
I rely more on the science and the actual numbers than my actual feelings. And I know a lot of people would disagree with that, but I prefer that way of working out. So we're talking about threshold. Basically, threshold is kind of like the, it refers to the lactate threshold, which is kind of the point where your lactate accumulates exponentially in your blood. And lactate is pretty much like fatigue.
00:53:33
Speaker
So kind of the point of the Norwegian model, if you want, is to always stay just below that lactate threshold. So it's kind of like you're at a pretty high intensity, but at the same time, you're not going over that threshold, which would create exponentially a lot of fatigue, pretty much. And I did a test, a lactate test with David, and I pretty much know exactly, well, exactly, roughly where my threshold is, according to my heart rate.
00:54:04
Speaker
And whenever I'm doing some training sessions, where the goal is, like I said, to stay just below that lactate threshold, then I kind of look at my heart rate. And for me, for example, I know that it's around 172 beats per minute. So when I'm doing my intervals, whether I'm doing my intervals.
00:54:21
Speaker
on the flat going uphill, maybe it's technical where you can't really look at your pace so much. I just look at my heart rate and stay to try to stay just below that 172 beats per minute. Yeah, so I use a lot of heart rate to monitor my training like that.
00:54:43
Speaker
Okay. And so to measure that you have a specific setup, you have a band that goes across. Yeah. Well, I'm actually sponsored by Coros and they have their armband, which goes across the arm. And that's been helping me a lot to be honest. I was kind of like a skeptical of it at first, but so far it's worked really great. And, um, yeah, I just wear it for every single training session that I do, even like on my easy training runs.
00:55:09
Speaker
It's not really, like I know now with my experience that I'm going easy, but it's still nice to have that data to sort of like show you like, okay, I'm really in my zone one, zone two, if you want. And yeah, it's just to make sure that you're not going too hard on the easy days and that you're at the right intensities during workouts. And I'd say also for races, heart rate has helped a ton because for example, the lactate threshold, that value
00:55:40
Speaker
Theoretically, it's kind of like a threshold. It's kind of like the effort that you should sustain. Theoretically during an hour, like an all out hour race. Um, so whenever, for example, if I'm doing like a 45 minute race and I look at my heart rate at the beginning of the race, it happened to me quite frequently last year where I, for example, after 10 minutes of racing, I would feel very tired and I'd be like, well, maybe we gone out way too quick and maybe I should like stay back a bit.
00:56:10
Speaker
But then I would look at my heart rate and I'd see, well, I'm like 10 beats per minute lower than my threshold. So then that would kind of tell me like, well, it's just my head that's playing tricks on me. Like I can actually physically go faster. And that actually like helped me a ton in the sense that you kind of like have to put your head aside and just be like, trust the science. I know that technically, physically I'm able to go faster. So you just have to trust it and continue pushing hard.
00:56:39
Speaker
And I don't know, you know, I always say that the numbers can also limit you, you know, because not everyone has access to a test or, you know, that type of technology. And for a lot of people that don't, they, they got to go off what they see on their watch or they got to go after their breathing. Do you have, now that you know the numbers more, can you,
00:57:07
Speaker
Do you feel like you have a better sense of what the feeling should be like? You know, basically what you're saying is that you don't want to get above a certain level because that's the red line. And then once you get in that zone, it's very hard to come down. Yeah, I think now, yes. But for example, two years ago,
00:57:26
Speaker
I think the numbers actually helped me realize how much I can actually push myself because like I said earlier, I think if I would have done these races two, three years ago where I didn't use that data, I think for most of the races I've done in the last year, I would have slowed down after like 10 minutes because I would have been like, well, this is way too quick. I'm sure I'm not going to be able to make it to the finish line, but to have that data that sort of reassures you that you're actually able to do this has helped me a ton.
00:57:56
Speaker
In terms of single, I think breathing, personally breathing has been very tricky for me. I feel like it's not a very good representation of how tired I am. Like if you're hyperventilating, like for sure, okay. Like you're definitely really getting tired, but apart from that, I'd say just feeling like lactate in your arms. I think that's kind of like the first sign of like, whoa, like this is a bit too hard. And that's pretty much what it means.
00:58:26
Speaker
you're going way above your lactate threshold. Um, so I think, yeah, I think that would be my, my first, the first single that maybe something's wrong that you're going way too fast. But yeah, I still think it's, it's always better to start just a bit more conservative. And then in the second half of the race, just go all out pretty much.
00:58:46
Speaker
And then, and you're right when you say that sometimes numbers can limit you. And that's why in races, I only like to look at my heart rate in the first part of races, but in the second part, like I don't look at it at all. Cause I don't want to be at the second part of the race or like in the last 10 minutes and look at my watch and be like, okay, I should maybe chill. Just want to stay in my right zones. Uh, I think that can effectively like limit you a bit. So at the end, you just have to put that aside and just go all out until you.
00:59:17
Speaker
Yeah. And I think it's interesting too, because you are doing climbing in these races also. So the heart rate becomes the indicator because your pace, you know, maybe it's, I don't know what the pace would be like, but it's going to be significantly higher than if you're running flat. So as long as you got the right number of your heart rate, then that.
00:59:41
Speaker
shows you during the right effort, regardless of what the, you know, if it's an eight minute kilometer or six minute or I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. 100%. And I mean, obviously I'm just saying what I'm using and a lot of runners don't use that. But like, for example, one of the runners who finished third in the world cup last year, Joe Stewart, he's an English runner and he doesn't even use a GPS watch.
01:00:03
Speaker
And I just cannot understand how you can race like that. For me, it's, it's just completely crazy. And I mean, for sure I'm the complete opposite. Like I really enjoy like watching the numbers and stuff, but he just goes totally by feelings. And I just, I just don't understand how he does it. And, and so from that, I mean, it's interesting that that works, you know, you have to do what works for you, right? And, and a lot of it's mental. So.
01:00:29
Speaker
uh, what works for you or makes you tick to see that number and say, look, no, I could push harder. Well, that's going to help you. But for him, he's operating on a different level. It's just a matter of how things work. So in those shorter distances where it's an hour, how are these guys racing? What's the strategy? Like, um, do you guys stay together for them for the beginning? Do you guys try and break away early? What's the, you know, because the longer races you could just, you know, like you did in tennis, just out, try to outlast somebody.
01:00:59
Speaker
But when it's shorter, you have less time to do that. Yeah. There, there's a lot of strategy and that's something that I really enjoy about these races. Uh, I've had a lot of races where I would pass and be passed by the same runners, like a dozen times during the race pretty much. Uh, so I think the best strategy is always to.
01:01:23
Speaker
run your race according to your strengths in the sense that if there's a portion of the course that really advantages you, you go and you try to make an attack if you want on those sections. But yeah, I think in general, races start really fast. I mean, you really have to be ready that there's a big chance that the first kilometers even adjusted to the grade, for example, the first kilometers are going to be
01:01:51
Speaker
the fastest in a lot of cases. So I think most of the time the races, how they go out is they start really fast. Then there's a, there's a part in the middle where everyone kind of slows down and you're really tired and you kind of get into your rhythm. Um, and then I think this is something that I really learned last year is that you really have to have this mental edge to be ready to like get another gear in the last five minutes or so.
01:02:21
Speaker
Because a lot of these races in the last five minutes, you're going to be close to a lot of different guys. There's going to be people five to 10 seconds in front of you, behind you also. So you really have to be ready in those last five minutes to really push extremely hard. And that's something that's really challenging, because at that point, everyone that's there in that pack is almost the same level.
01:02:44
Speaker
But who's going to win the race is that person that like has the, that's the smarter and that's like the mentally stronger to be able to reach that next gear for the last five minutes. Um, so yeah, it's, it starts really fast and it gets kind of quiet during the middle. And then at the end, that's where like the real carnage gets down. And, uh, yeah, that's something that I've struggled, I think at the beginning of last year, but I kind of learned through the summer to be able to do that.
01:03:12
Speaker
And, um, yeah, it's really exciting. I think there's no better feeling of just finishing a mountain race because I feel compared to ultras in mountain running pretty much every time you finish your race, you just know that you gave absolutely everything you had. And I mean, I finished a lot of races where it's just like, I crossed the finish line, I crossed the finish line and I'm just like, wow, like.
01:03:36
Speaker
I don't know how I could have ran this like five seconds faster today. Like this was my complete all out and it's really a satisfying feeling to know that you gave absolutely everything you had. Um, but, uh, but yeah, I think, uh, the last five minutes are definitely important. Yeah. It sounds like a cross country feel almost, you know, in a lot of races, it is kind of like that. It's not usually, but you'll have like some pretty decent fields.
01:04:03
Speaker
But a lot of the time it's pretty condensed in the sense that you will have like 15 to 20 athletes who are very similar in terms of level and that are probably going to finish within like two, three minutes of each other at the finish line. And yeah, that makes it really exciting for sure. Yeah, that's pretty cool. And like you said, I think what makes it fun, like if I had that feeling
01:04:29
Speaker
for like a marathon, the one you're talking about where you came, you got to the line and I was going after a time goal and I knew when I crossed, I missed it by two seconds, right? But to get me to that, at that stage in my running career, if you call it,
01:04:53
Speaker
I knew that I didn't have an ounce left. I fought for every second, and I got back close. So it's funny, and it's kind of what you're describing. I think that's such a great feeling because the body, well, maybe a marathon, the body gives out later, but in a mountain race or an hour long run, I can imagine your body's feeling pretty good. It's just you got a...
01:05:23
Speaker
It's really all the cardio for that amount of time that you have to fully exert yourself. And that's where the different lies. Like you said, you can go and race like the next weekend, it's fine. Whereas with the longer stuff, it's really a battle between how much endurance you have and speed you have versus your own body and how it breaks down over time. Yeah.
01:05:48
Speaker
Yeah, I think road races are definitely good for that in the sense that it really forces you to give your all out maximum at the end for sure. I think like ultras, like, I think I, I referred to ultras because in ultras, at least from my experience, is that sometimes it's, it's such a long distance that sometimes you kind of ask yourself, well, I probably should have started a bit more fast, or maybe I went too hard on that uphill. Maybe I didn't push enough on the technical sections. Whereas road running, it's kind of like.
01:06:19
Speaker
know your pace from the start then that sort of allows you to be able to if you know that you always like stick to your pace till the end it's kind of you know that you reach your kind of potential if you want um but yeah i wouldn't say that mountain running is necessarily easier like you're still like you're you're really pushing
01:06:39
Speaker
very, very hard, like from the beginning to the end. But I think it's easier to race frequently just because there's less impact, especially the vertical races. Like you finish a vertical race and you're completely dead, like you're, you kind of want to die, but your legs are fine. So that's what makes you able to, because you don't have any impact since you're going pretty slow, going uphill. So that's what makes it possible to, to race more multiple weekends in a row.
01:07:08
Speaker
Oh yeah. And that's, I thought that was interesting too. I read it and I don't know, you have a few things out there where you're answering some questions and, and just doing speed work uphill is, and I've given this a few of my athletes too. It's nice because you're still working speed, but it's harder to get injured doing it that way also. Totally. Yeah. During the summer, I think 80% of my intervals are uphill.
01:07:32
Speaker
And because of specifically that, it's just no risk for injury and much easier to recover from. Especially this winter, I've done a bit more training on the roads. And I really noticed that, wow, like it's, it takes not only are you fatigued just like generally because of the high effort, but also your legs are definitely more tired and you definitely found, you definitely feel that pounding in the next couple of days after a hard workout. Whereas you go uphill, you.
01:08:02
Speaker
you're pretty much okay. And just to do a parenthesis, like last year I did a lot of double thresholds even. So that's when you do an intensity session in the morning and in the afternoon. And doing my intervals uphill, I felt like that was really not easy, but that was really doable. But now this year I've actually kind of switched to not doing that for now, just because I feel like the flat intervals are more hard on my legs.
01:08:31
Speaker
So maybe adding a bit more strength to the legs and a more durability. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting,
Finding Enjoyment and Mental Strength in Running
01:08:37
Speaker
right? The, the, how we do these types of training, maybe it's good to switch it up from time to time. Cause they give different kinds of stimulus if you, if you will. So what would you say to somebody looking to get into, you know, just to move more or to get into trail running? You know, you've learned a few things. Uh, yeah, I think.
01:08:59
Speaker
Find a way to train where it's fun for you. I think that's the most important thing. I think if you want to be fit or if you want to pursue a passion or whatever, the most important thing is to be consistent. It's not just to do it a couple of weeks and then stop. I think it's really to be consistent from every week, every month, every year. And I think the only way to be consistent through time like that is to actually enjoy doing it.
01:09:26
Speaker
And for myself, that's something that I've always preached. And I've always tried my best to make it a priority is to find a way to do training in a way that I actually enjoy it. So that way of making it enjoyable, I think, can vary a lot from person to person. So that could be finding a group to train with. Maybe I think the answer isn't always to try to find the best way to train, but just
01:09:56
Speaker
try to find a way to have a decent amount of training in, but making it enjoyable. So for example, if we're talking about uphill intervals versus flat intervals, if you really don't like doing uphill intervals, don't do that. Do flat intervals. The difference is not going to be so significant between the two. It's just much, much better to just consistently be doing these workouts, for example, in a consistent manner. And yeah, I think
01:10:25
Speaker
I've come to a point where I've always been someone who's like, if you're able to do a decent amount of volume and a decent amount of intensity, however you do it, it really doesn't matter so much. It does matter, but it doesn't matter so much. So just find a way to have a decent amount of training and making it enjoyable. And that's really the most important part. And what would you say running is, has brought into your life specifically? Uh, yeah, I think.
01:10:55
Speaker
It's definitely helped me put things in perspective and also be mentally stronger for a lot of different things. I think in training or in racing, you kind of experience a lot of highs and lows. And I think that's definitely helped me in other scares of my life to sort of, if there's, I have tough times, it's, I don't want to say I'm used to tough times, but it's kind of like, I can relate to those moments in training or racing where things went really hard. And I know that.
01:11:25
Speaker
things will eventually pass and things will get good again. Uh, so I'd say, I'd say that. And also just like the routine of every day getting out to training, that sort of discipline has also helped me a lot in different areas and work and stuff like that. How do you stay motivated to do that day in and day out?
01:11:47
Speaker
Oh, that's a really, that's a big question. Yeah. I mean, why do I, it's kind of like, why do I run in a sense? I think it's, that's a very deep question, which is something I don't
01:12:00
Speaker
I'm not sure I have the answer, to be honest. I think my reasoning of why I run in the first place is obviously because I enjoy it. That's a very simple answer. Like I enjoy the feeling under my feet. I enjoy to explore new trails, new roads. I think that's very basic, but then it's why do I train as much as I do? Because if I would only run for the enjoyment of it, I think I would run a lot less than I do now. I'd probably run 30 minutes every day or so and do alarm runs.
01:12:29
Speaker
a long run with friends like during the weekend. But then the question is, why do I run so much? That's something I honestly am not quite sure about. I think for a long period of time, I think it was just like, I have this dream of becoming a professional runner. And I felt like, okay, well, this is my, I'm sort of pursuing that. But I kind of realized in the last year or so that it's probably more than that, because sometimes I kind of ask myself, well,
01:12:55
Speaker
If my goal was only to be a professional runner, I'd probably not do the type of races that I'm doing. I'd probably seek out more races that have more media attention. Probably I'd change the way I use my social media and stuff. And I kind of realized that, well, I don't want to make those changes. So then it kind of makes me ask myself the question, then why am I doing this? Why am I training so much?
01:13:22
Speaker
I don't know. It's definitely a competitive thing. I definitely am motivated in training by I want to win those races. I want to compete at the international level. But I feel like that's a very ego-centric answer. And I kind of wish that I had a deeper meaning.
01:13:42
Speaker
but I'm just being completely transparent and I don't know. I wish it's not like an actual like ego thing, but for now that's the only thing that I kind of like have an answer to that question. And like as a follow-up, what do you hope to accomplish in your running career while you're doing competitively anyways? Yeah, well, I think I really want, I think it's kind of like the pursuit of seeing what I can achieve at most.
01:14:11
Speaker
Uh, I feel like I've done a lot of training in the past couple of years and it kind of feels, um, it would kind of feel sad to like not go see where my limit actually is. Uh, so I don't think I have like some specific like races that I, that I'm like, okay. If I win this race, then I'm going to be fully satisfied. I don't think that's ever going to happen, but I think it's just the pursuit of like.
01:14:39
Speaker
I want to give myself the chance and I want to have the most opportunities to race at my best and try to get the best result possible that I can get pretty much. But yeah, I definitely want to do the big mountain races.
01:14:53
Speaker
some in the US and some in Europe. Like if I think of one of the races I'm doing this year is a Mount Washington road race and it's kind of this legendary uphill race in Mount Washington in New Hampshire. And I feel like that would be very special for me, for example, to possibly win that race and get under like the one hour barrier, which is kind of like a very
01:15:16
Speaker
legendary barrier that only a few runners have been able to get under. So I feel like personally that would mean a lot to, to that kind of stuff. Yeah, that's, well, it's, it's good to have those, those goals and, you know, I didn't, you know, see what motivates you and to, to have a thought process around it, you know, have you found, have you seen the potential in yourself or do you realize what potential you have or has somebody seen that in you and kind of.
01:15:46
Speaker
you know, mentored you through this? I think a lot of it has come from myself. I've always been, I've always had a very supportive circle, like my family and my friends have always been very supportive. But I've never had someone who's pushed me to continue going harder. I'd say almost the opposite. I feel like a lot of times that people have been like,
01:16:13
Speaker
If you're doing a bit too much, maybe you should like shout out a bit. I've heard that before, yeah. But I think that's actually good because that kind of forces the motivation to come from yourself. It forces you that the motivation are, I only have the word in French, but the entrance, it's like it actually, it's from yourself, you're competing for yourself and not for others.
01:16:35
Speaker
So I think it really comes from myself and I think that stems from pretty much my tennis background where I was hyper competitive like when I was 12, 13 and I would throw my tennis racket when I would lose matches and I think I sort of bring that back to running now a bit.
01:16:55
Speaker
Yeah, hopefully you're not throwing your shoes. I know the feeling though, like when I played golf, like when I was younger, I get mad. I throw my club and now I just don't have the energy for it. I go play and I, you know, I'm competitive with myself, but I just, how I show it.
01:17:15
Speaker
is a bit different, which comes with maturity, we'll call it. So what's next for you? What does the season look like? And where can people find out more about you? I know you have a YouTube channel and Instagram. Yeah, I think the most consistent social media is obviously Strava. I really like Strava because it shows what you're doing pretty much. And I think that's what I'm more comfortable with in terms of social media. I'm also a bit on Instagram.
01:17:45
Speaker
And YouTube, I used to be more active. I used to really enjoy like filming, but I kind of realized that I enjoy more filming like other people's workouts or other races. And with my own training, it's been pretty difficult to do the two things in the last year or so. But yeah, what's next? It's going to be pretty similar to last year. So a lot of time in Europe participating again on the World Cup.
01:18:10
Speaker
Uh, but I will also do a couple of races that are outside of the world cup, like for example, mouth Washington. Um, and yeah, a couple other races in Europe like that. And, uh, yeah, that's pretty much this summer. I do plan on doing a bit of road racing throughout the spring. That's actually something that I started doing a bit more this winter. Cause I kind of realized last year that a lot of these guys with whom I'm competing are how like track road times.
01:18:39
Speaker
that I would, I don't think I'll ever achieve to be perfectly honest, but I'm just so far from them that I feel like it could advantage me to get closer to them. So, and it's actually been surprisingly pretty enjoyable to train and race on the road. So that's kind of like the short-term plan through the spring and then really get into a mountain running season throughout the summer. Any, do you see yourself going back to the ultra world eventually? Uh,
01:19:07
Speaker
I'd be surprised. I'd be surprised. I feel like competitively for me, I kind of realized that racing is more like that competitive urge that makes me motivated into racing. I'm still very interested by the ultra world, but I feel like for me, doing those ultra distances would be, I'd feel more happy doing them in terms of like a training run. Like for example, do this.
01:19:35
Speaker
80 kilometer run where I would just take my time, do it with friends, just, yeah, just like enjoy the experience of doing it. But for me, racing equates like giving it my 100% and competing against other runners, which I really enjoy. And I don't think I would enjoy doing that again in the ultra marathons.
01:19:57
Speaker
Fair enough. Yeah. It's, it's amazing. You know, it's fun that you've, you've found that in yourself and, and realize that and, and aren't, you know, pressured to do it because of like, we talked about the media and everything finds that, that the most interesting type, you know, we've got to do what's good for us. And I love that you've, you've found that and have come back to the shorter stuff, which is, which is really cool.
01:20:21
Speaker
Yeah, so then and I want to thank you again for coming on and taking the time with us and I really enjoyed our conversation. We learned a lot about mountain running and wish you well in your upcoming season.
01:20:34
Speaker
Yeah, thank you very much. I also want to give, if anyone is interested by mountain running, like there's not a ton of events in North America, but for the first time in Canada, we're actually going to have won a mountain running championships. That's going to be in October. So it's at Dicidiclar, there's going to be a vertical race and a classic up-down race. I personally, unfortunately won't be able to be there, but if anyone wants to try it out, I highly recommend going there.
01:21:02
Speaker
Cool. Yeah. We can put the link in the show notes for, for people to, to check it out and, and maybe we'll get a few people signed up for that one. Yeah. Very cool. Well, thanks a lot, Justin. No problem. Take care. All right. You too. Thanks for tuning in to the just in stride podcast. I truly appreciate you taking the time to listen. And I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. Please take a minute after this to rate and review our show on Apple podcasts.
01:21:30
Speaker
With your feedback, we'll be able to make the show even better and it'll help us reach new listeners too. You can also find us on Instagram at justinstridepod for all the latest episodes and updates.
01:21:42
Speaker
Of course, this show wouldn't be possible without a solid team behind me. With logo and design by Vanessa Pugliese, as well as audio, music, and editing by Forest McKay, a huge thank you goes out to both of them. Guest outreach, social media, writing, and advertising are handled by me, your host, Justin Pugliese. Finally, we'd like to thank you, our listeners, for coming along for the ride with Justin Stradd.