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#6 - Julian Liniger: CEO @Relai, Entrepreneurial Insights, Navigating Intensity, Regularity, and Priorities on the Road to Success
39 Plays9 months ago
We delve into his mindset and experiences, sharing valuable perspectives on the journey to success. We explore the principles that shape the entrepreneurial landscape.
Our conversation touches upon the concept that regularity beats intensity, highlighting the impact of consistent habits on long-term success.
Discover the power of identifying your priority project and the art of saying no to focus on what truly matters. We navigate through challenges such as scarcity of resources and the time-consuming nature of building a venture, providing insights into strategic approaches to overcome obstacles.
Our exploration extends to self-belief and self-care as fundamental concepts for entrepreneurs. We share anecdotes and reflections on the significance of maintaining confidence and well-being throughout the entrepreneurial journey.
Whether you're a seasoned business owner or just starting, this episode promises thought-provoking discussions and practical takeaways to fuel your entrepreneurial spirit.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello Julian, thank you for accepting my invitation for this new episode of the Nima Ramesh podcast. I hope that you are doing great. I wanted to speak with you because of the content that we have received previously.
00:00:16
Speaker
in the podcast has recommended to speak to you. So here we are today. Can you please present yourself or the persons that don't know you and what are you doing currently at Relay, please?
Julian's Swiss Roots and Early Career
00:00:36
Speaker
Sure. Thank you so much for having me. So my name is Julien Liniger. As you said already, I'm 31 years old now.
00:00:43
Speaker
And I live in Switzerland and born and raised in Switzerland. I live in Bielbien, which is a bilingual, half French speaking and half German speaking city, but actually in the German speaking canton of Bern, where also the capital of Bern is. But professionally, I'm in Zurich, around Zurich for quite some years now. So I studied in Bern.
00:01:09
Speaker
where at the university where I studied business administration and psychology. And then after this, I had some first professional experiences in banking and management consulting. I was always interested in finance, but also people, obviously. And so then that brought me to also be very interested in Bitcoin. So 2015, I discovered Bitcoin and I was fascinated and I learned more
00:01:39
Speaker
about it. And then in 2017, 18, where the first big bull market happened, I really took a lot of time to research it and listen to as many podcasts as I could and learn everything about Bitcoin, but also blockchain and crypto and all this this whole industry.
Entrepreneurial Journey and Founding Relay
00:01:58
Speaker
And then in 2018, 19, I then really decided I want to be an entrepreneur, I want to be self employed, and I want to focus as much of
00:02:08
Speaker
my time as possible on this new technology and new asset, which is Bitcoin. So that's what I did. And I founded three companies in total, but Relay obviously being the most well-known and most successful one, you know, all the good things are three. So now 120% of my time and passion goes into Relay. And Relay is basically Europe's easiest Bitcoin app
00:02:38
Speaker
made in Switzerland. So it's a smartphone application. Everyone can download in Europe and within a couple of minutes and with a very low amount at 24 seven, you can invest in Bitcoin and buy and sell Bitcoin. You have your own wallet. So it's a non-custodial Bitcoin wallet. There's no counterparty risk and you really own a real Bitcoin yourself.
00:03:02
Speaker
You can also set up a savings plan, et cetera. So it makes it just super easy for people that are maybe not familiar with Bitcoin yet to buy their first Bitcoin to set up a savings plan and to make use of the best savings technology that human beings have ever invented, which is Bitcoin. And yeah, with this, we are now live for about three and a half years. We started, we went to market in summer 2020.
00:03:30
Speaker
And since then, we have amassed around 300,000 up downloads in different European countries, mainly Switzerland and Germany, but also other countries like France, Italy and Spain, etc. And around 100,000 active users trading around 30 million in fiat currencies of a Euro or Swiss French.
00:03:52
Speaker
a month with us. So around 1 million a day is invested in Bitcoin through our app. Maybe can you share a bit more about yourself? So you grew up in Switzerland, right?
Crypto Business in Switzerland: Opportunities and Challenges
00:04:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:09
Speaker
Okay. And how do you think about the entrepreneurship in Switzerland? It's a topic that we have discussed with Anton. Is it true that, let's say, Singapore and Switzerland are the two best places to create businesses in crypto? Of course, I think you will have a biased
00:04:29
Speaker
opinion because you are from there, but can you explain a bit the advantages and maybe the cons also that bring entrepreneurship in Switzerland? Yeah, definitely. I think Switzerland is overall a great country to start a business, but there are definitely pros and cons.
00:04:48
Speaker
There are, you know, it depends on what you are looking for, what industry maybe you're in, what kind of startup, is it a B2C or B2B startup, et cetera, what kind of startup you want to build. And then it can be a very good strategy to start the business in Switzerland. But so what is definitely very positive is the regulation.
00:05:12
Speaker
in Switzerland, the regulatory system, especially in financial markets, which as a FinTech and Bitcoin company we are in, it's definitely very friendly. And it's also very stable. So the regulators are very open and they have kind of a sandbox framework where as a startup, early on, you can do a lot of things and be a bit under the radar until you have
00:05:42
Speaker
tested your innovation and went to market. So you don't have to have a banking license for everything if you are just starting. And so with rather low costs, you can start innovations in the financial or fintech industry, which is great. You have a lot of stability as well. So the political and regulatory system in Switzerland is very stable. So it's not going to change every year as another
00:06:10
Speaker
jurisdictions and depending on which president is currently you know in charge the rules change every year etc so that's not the case in Switzerland which is great then there's a lot of a lot of talent great talent in Switzerland and as the Swiss franc is also a very
00:06:32
Speaker
stable and strong currency, it's easier to hire talent also from other countries. So from more low wage countries where there's still great talent, especially tech talent. Well, it's probably easier if you are raising and making money in Switzerland to pay these talents from other countries. So there are definitely a lot of advantages and specifically in
00:07:03
Speaker
FinTech, Bitcoin, crypto, blockchain, et cetera, there has been a big community that was being built in the last couple of years from different startups and talent all over the world coming to Switzerland, but also a big industry-rounded ecosystem around it, like advisors, consultants, lawyers, accountants, bankers, et cetera, which are very important
00:07:32
Speaker
build a new vertical, a new industry like Bitcoin, blockchain, etc. So that's all very positive. There are also disadvantages, I think. So for example, there is a huge amount of capital here in Switzerland, which is great. But unfortunately, there's almost no risk capital. So venture capital is still in very early stages in Switzerland, comparing to other
00:08:01
Speaker
countries. If you imagine, Switzerland is one of the richest countries in the world. There are so many millionaires, multimillionaires, billionaires, but all this capital is mainly invested in, you know, large-cap stocks or real estate or kind of the more boring assets, let's say. Not much of this capital is invested in venture, in startups, unfortunately. And even though a lot of people are rich, you know, they
00:08:31
Speaker
are not allocating capital into startups. They are not really doing angel investments, et cetera. So especially at an early stage, it is very hard to find capital here in Switzerland because the investors are very risk averse. So that's why you probably will need to look at other countries to fundraise, which then can also make sense to go into other countries to settle the business.
00:08:59
Speaker
because, you know, you're closer to these investors and the capital. But yeah, I mean, overall, I think, especially for FinTech and crypto and Bitcoin, Switzerland is a great one of the best places to start your business for sure.
00:09:16
Speaker
OK, that's amazing. So actually today, so we will record this episode on Friday, January 19. I have read this morning a part of the CVVC Top 50 report, 2023. That's a great report. And I highly recommend everyone to have a look at it. So I will post the link of this report in the description of this podcast episode.
00:09:43
Speaker
Relay, your application is mentioned with Dorus, with other companies, Actionariat also. It's indicated that, as you said, you are based in Zurich, founded in 2019, and that you are a Swiss-based startup established to make significant strides in the European Bitcoin investment market with your non-custodial Bitcoin platform, known for your user-friendly mobile app, because Relay enables effortless buying and selling of Bitcoin.
Swiss Risk Attitudes and Funding Challenges
00:10:13
Speaker
have the question I won't go into the full description I let the people interested to go and check this resource in Switzerland as you say there are a lot of people that have already money and well known in France where I was born that Switzerland is a rich country comparing to France and France is already a rich country my question is wasn't it hard when you started to speak with the Switzerland people and explain them because I think that they are financially educated that Bitcoin can be interested for them because one of the
00:10:42
Speaker
main argument for when I at least when I started to look and read about Bitcoin it was the Financial inclusion and in Switzerland. I think it's not a topic. Yeah, so the financial Literacy is definitely higher than in other countries, but still maybe not as high as you would expect it from the outside and a lot of people just you know, they they have quite a lot of money and
00:11:11
Speaker
Um, so the average, you know, balance, let's say, or the average net worth is definitely very high, but most people just have their money on their bank account. They don't really invest. I think it's probably around, I would say 20, 25% of people in Switzerland that actually invest their money, even in, you know, boring assets like stocks and bonds, et cetera. Still by far the most people just have their money on their bank account.
00:11:39
Speaker
They don't really think about it that much. They don't learn about finances that much. I mean, in school, no one learns about finances, no one learns about money and what to do with it, that you need to invest in order to save your purchasing power in the long run. Because otherwise, if you just have your 100 or 200K or whatever, and a lot of people in Switzerland have that on their bank account, that you basically lose a lot of the purchasing power long term
00:12:09
Speaker
inflation and the fees, banking fees, et cetera, that people are not super aware. And no one is taking risks with their capital, as I said before. So it is and it was especially hard at the beginning to talk to them and convince people to become our users first, to invest in something that is Bitcoin, that is early,
00:12:38
Speaker
Still, it is a complex technology. It's a new kind of asset. It's a risky asset. It's perceived as a risky asset because the volatility is very high. So to convince people to invest in Bitcoin through an early stage startup like Relay was very hard indeed. And also to convince
00:13:01
Speaker
even rich people to invest as angel investors in our company relay and to buy stocks and provide us working capital was also very hard. Maybe not necessarily because they were not financially educated but again it really all comes down to I think
00:13:22
Speaker
the Swiss culture that is just risk averse. So, multi-millionaires, I did have many discussions with multi-millionaires sitting with me at lunch and you're wearing maybe a watch, a Breitling watch or a Rolex or an AP or whatever that probably cost 50 or 100K.
00:13:44
Speaker
but they wouldn't give me 10 or 20K to build a startup. It's just really, they rather hold their millions in a real estate, in art watches, in stocks, but like big blue chip stocks in Switzerland, basically there are five big stocks, Novartis, Roche to pharma, and then Zurich Insurance, UBS, the big bank,
00:14:13
Speaker
you know, a couple of these very boring, big stocks. That's where people in Switzerland, rich people in Switzerland hold their money. So it is hard to convince them to invest in something like Bitcoin or to invest in something like a fintech startup. Whereas I think, and I've traveled quite a lot, and I think a lot of other cultures are much more risk
00:14:41
Speaker
um, you know, tolerating or open to risk because also they have to, because they are not living in a country that is so stable that just, you know, you can find a job and earn five to 10 K a month and have a very, um, easy and nice life. Um, you know, they are not born into a wealthy country. A lot of them have to be self-made entrepreneurs. They have to, uh, get the drive and do it themselves and build something in order to
00:15:11
Speaker
earn their living and hopefully provide for a better future also for their kids, etc. So the drive is much higher and the risk tolerance is much higher. So then even if people make money there, they also spend it, they also invest it in startups and they try things out like Bitcoin, new technologies, new assets, etc. That's definitely a cultural thing in Switzerland that kind of prevents
00:15:38
Speaker
I think it is coming. I think the trend is clear that in the last 20 years, 30 years, a lot of this venture capital attitude, risk capital has been built and it is developing.
00:15:55
Speaker
But we're still at a very early stage and I think it still takes a lot of
Early Ventures and Relay's Development
00:15:59
Speaker
time. Okay. So coming back to you, your initial, let's say, professional and entrepreneurial journey. Would you say that you have co-founded other projects?
00:16:10
Speaker
And I guess that you have this entrepreneurship period since a long time. How does it start exactly? When is the first moment that you remember or it was really young a bit later during the adolescence? When is really the first moment that you feel, okay, I want to become an entrepreneur and create my own app or my first project? How really does it start with Bitcoin or does it start before? I think it started before even.
00:16:38
Speaker
Bitcoin is something that I was already interested while I was studying. In 2015, I got introduced by a friend into Bitcoin, but not very seriously yet. I only took it serious probably 2017 when I was already in the final stages of my master's studies. But already before, probably end of my bachelor's or beginning of my master's studies, I started to
00:17:05
Speaker
feel that, okay, I think I will be an entrepreneur. Because at the university in Bern, basically you get prepared for being one small part of a big corporation.
00:17:20
Speaker
So you get trained to take a job at a big corporate company, like maybe a big bank like the UBS or the Swiss railway company or the post office or even Swiss government.
00:17:42
Speaker
You know, big organizations and I never sympathize with that, even though I started then working at one of the biggest banks in Switzerland for for an internship, etc. But I still, you know, I know I never sympathize with just being a very small part of a very big
00:18:01
Speaker
highly regulated, you know, bureaucratic monolith company. I always wanted to have a big impact in a small group, in a small, highly motivated high performance team. That was always more my goal. And as I learned more and more about these corporations, I was getting more and more interested in maybe the idea of becoming an entrepreneur and a startup entrepreneur.
00:18:28
Speaker
And I also was always interested in these things like finances and investing and technology. So it all came together properly at a seminar that I had in my master's, which was called being an entrepreneur. So that was the only, you know, imagine five years of studies of business administration. And it was the only possible seminar that I could take, which was about entrepreneurship. And it was not even in, you know, a course that you had to take, it was optional course.
00:18:57
Speaker
But I obviously took it and it kind of changed my life because that's where I really learned about, okay, what does it mean to become an entrepreneur? What are the risks? What are the potential benefits? And how can you learn all these things like, you know, creating a vision, building a team, fundraising.
00:19:17
Speaker
doing finance and legal and compliance and marketing and operations and technology and all this, bringing all this together. And then I started also to read a lot of, read a lot of books about it, et cetera. And I got really hooked with the idea of becoming an entrepreneur, but still at the same time, I was, I was thinking, or maybe I got told by everyone that, you know, you're still too young. I was like 24, 25, still too young.
00:19:43
Speaker
you know, start working after your studies at a big bank or whatever, which I did, and then do maybe some management consulting, which I also did. But then I always had this urge of building something on my own and kind of be my own boss. And so it came that after my studies I did, I continued working for the company I already worked for when I finished my
00:20:12
Speaker
Business Administration Masters, which was a consulting company, a small consulting company. I liked working there and they offered me a full-time job, but they also were okay with me working 60%. And so with the other two weekdays and two weekends days, I then started my first own company and basically that was probably 25, 26 maybe.
00:20:37
Speaker
And the only thing I knew was I'm interested in Bitcoin and blockchain and crypto and all that stuff and finance, the finance industry, banking, et cetera. It was interesting to me. And what I could do was management consulting. I knew what this is all about because I worked for this company for a couple of years. And so I thought, look, I just started a Bitcoin crypto finance consulting company. Right. It makes sense. But I was only 26 and I founded it with two friends of mine.
00:21:06
Speaker
And we actually got some interesting projects. We were able to advise Julius Baer, for example, the biggest private bank in Switzerland. The ING, we had some research projects that we could do for ING, which is one of the biggest banks in Europe.
00:21:27
Speaker
And then an online bank in Switzerland called Swiss Quote, we were able to do some education seminars and even online education modules, e-learning modules for them and their employees. So that was all really fun and great. And we learned a lot and we have started to build our network, but obviously didn't really make a lot of money. It was not on the long-term, it was not
00:21:52
Speaker
good thing to, you know, it's not a scalable business model. It was not a great startup, whatever, but it was a very good first step. And actually, this company still exists now, which is cool. But but then I learned that, okay, just selling your time, especially as a very young, unexperienced person is not gonna lead to big success. So we wanted to find something that is more
00:22:20
Speaker
Uh, structure, you can systemize more and make, make like product package that you can sell independent of your time is more scalable, you know, and can make money without you even putting in your time. And so out of this consulting company came an education provider, which was an education product first started with a very simple three day course.
00:22:44
Speaker
that gives bankers an input know-how, but also a diploma and an actual certification that is accepted by the Swiss Banking Association and the Certification Association of Quality here in Switzerland. And it was the first of its kind in this growing crypto finance
00:23:10
Speaker
industry and it's now still the only one that is as certified. And it's the biggest one with more than 700 people, bankers that have completed this course and our alumni. We later then also expanded it to offer an online course, etc. And basically from every bank in Switzerland and also some banks abroad in Germany, etc.
00:23:38
Speaker
came to do this course and it has established itself as like the number one education now in crypto finance in Switzerland. And so this was something that with very low time involvement and with now we are employing half a full-time employee there and we were two founders that helped represent and strategize and build that whole thing.
00:24:04
Speaker
It is running very well, and it's making a good six-digit, almost seven-digit revenue a year. So that was cool. That was like a stepping stone to becoming more scalable and really not an SME, but really a startup. It's definitely an SME, but it was like a next step, right? And then from there on, I went on and founded Relay,
00:24:34
Speaker
just because I saw the need in the market for a very simple and easy to use app that allows people to buy actual Bitcoin with a very low barrier of entry and also to save on the long term automatically like let's say 100 bucks every week into Bitcoin. And then that was where I thought, okay, this is
00:24:59
Speaker
a system, an idea, a case that is really scalable. That where basically it doesn't matter whether we have 10,000 or 100,000 customers.
00:25:11
Speaker
We don't need more employees. It doesn't need more of my time necessarily because it's really like just the tech, like 100% or at least 99% tech enabled software that you can give to people that they can download themselves, use it themselves. And it provides a value that they are willing to pay for. And that was really, really eye-opening. And that's also what allowed us then to go out and raise money
00:25:40
Speaker
From big venture capital investors and angel investors, we raised close to 10 million so far in these three and a half years that we are on the market. And we grew a team of 22 people. And with these 22 people, we are serving more than 100,000 active users and processing, as I said before, initially around 30 million
00:26:03
Speaker
investments a month, around 50 to 60,000 orders a month. So it's quite astonishing numbers with a very small team.
Balancing Work and Startup Life
00:26:13
Speaker
And that's, I think, this scalability aspect that it took me three companies to figure out.
00:26:20
Speaker
Okay. That's super interesting. So if I understood properly, there are multiple projects and the luck and also it's an opportunity to work for a company that give you this 60% workload is start of everything. How did you manage? Did you ask them directly when you joined the company? I want you really to understand your spirit and your mindset. Did you ask
00:26:44
Speaker
already when negotiating your contract how do you come with this proposal or this idea to work 60% and how do you organize the 40% that remains because obviously 60% is already quite a lot to work I guess and as you say then there is weekends they are a lot when when you build the project you work on the weekends you work the nights you want when you when you want basically
00:27:08
Speaker
But in my case, at least I haven't taken much break in the beginning. So how are the early days? How do you organize yourself with some years of experience? What are the key success factors that you think you have implemented to get to know what are the priorities or maybe in the other way, what are the kind of rookie mistakes when you start building the first project that you are doing? Yes.
00:27:34
Speaker
I think it's almost no young founder can really just start full time with a project, right? With a startup. And ideally, yes, that would be great if you just have an idea and you have a co-founder and then you have a lot of money that can buy basically one or two years of your time, then you can all go all in and focus full time on this. That would be great. But that was far away from my reality. Unfortunately, I was basically
00:28:03
Speaker
broke. My family didn't have money. I was still a student or just starting to become an employee and so starting to make a little bit of money, but not a lot. So basically with these 60%, I earned enough money to just get by, but I couldn't make any savings and I could definitely not invest in my own time for a couple of months or years to
00:28:31
Speaker
focus full-time on the startup. That's just the reality for most young founders. Then you need to find the middle way. And so my middle way was just to negotiate with the company I worked with already for, I think, two years or even a bit more. So for the whole time of my master's degree, I was working for them 60% and finishing my master's. And so already there, it's hard work. I think it just requires a lot of work, morale and a good time management to
00:29:00
Speaker
figure out how to work and also finish your studies. And since I was 18, I always had the idea of I want to finance myself. I never wanted to be financed by my parents, et cetera. I wanted to do it myself. So I was already accustomed to working a lot while I was studying. I had strange jobs like I was working in a manufacturing
00:29:30
Speaker
for quite some, for a bit of time. And then in a call center, in a restaurant, you know, I was doing everything just to get by, get some money. And I had my first internship at a bank, which was cool. And then started with management consulting as like intern and then junior consultant. And, you know, by the time I ended my master degrees, I was then offered a full time job as a consultant.
00:29:57
Speaker
But then I said, look, I would like to just continue these 60%. And because it was a small company and I knew the founder very well, she said, look, sure, happy to support you. If you stay for another one or two years or three years, however long it takes you to build your own stuff, that's cool. I'm supported. So however much you want to work for us, I take it. So then we.
00:30:25
Speaker
negotiated that, okay, 60% would be great. So three days of work, three, like Monday to Wednesday, for example, or depending on what, what projects we had, I was focusing full time on this company, you know, eight to 10 hours a day. Obviously management consulting is also a very exhausting and very hard job. It requires a lot of work. And then the rest of the, again, two weekdays and two
00:30:51
Speaker
weekends, weekend days and sometimes also in the evening when I came back to my home from Zurich, you know, there's a one and a half hour train and sometimes I opened my laptop and I worked on my project, right? So that's definitely at the beginning, it's really about just hard work, a lot of hustle and just
00:31:15
Speaker
don't give up and with not enough time and not enough money, try to figure out what are the priorities, what do you need to work on and focus on right now, what brings you to the next step, to the next level, and then do this continuously. I think continuity beats intensity, even though obviously the intensity needs to be very high at the beginning as well.
00:31:40
Speaker
But you need to just keep on doing it and keep on hammering the same thing for months and years. That's how you can build something from nothing to step one, then step two, and just go reach the next level. And always keep the ambitions, keep the passion alive. Also, make sure you eat well, sleep well, and train well so that you don't
00:32:10
Speaker
It's not a sprint, it's a marathon, right? And again, continuity beats intensity so that you can do something continuously. You also need to have some sort of work-life balance, even at the beginning where, as you said, there's not a lot of breaks and there's not a lot of recreational time. But it was fun and I would definitely do it again because that's where you learn so much about yourself and
00:32:36
Speaker
Again, time management and sales management and what to focus on, what to prioritize, et cetera. When you have not a lot of resources, not a lot of human resources, not a lot of time, not a lot of financial resources, but still somehow you just make small steps, small steps, step by step. And then, yeah, I was just fortunate that I had a very supportive employer then. And so.
Entrepreneurial Risks and Milestones
00:33:02
Speaker
And then there, there is a time at one point you need to make the switch, right? Because then we, in our case, I then had a co-founder. Um, and then I had the concept pretty clearly laid out. We already had done some first, um, startup competitions where we got great feedback, where we have further developed our case in terms of, you know, business model, legal and compliance technology.
00:33:29
Speaker
financing, we had a pitch deck, we had everything kind of set up. We had a proof of concept, almost an MVP already, that we could soon go live with. We already had first test users, we had a website, we had social media, we had some followers and some testing community, et cetera. So we were ready to go.
00:33:51
Speaker
But then what was needed was more time from us, the founders, to really go all in and more money, therefore. So we needed money to finance this kind of going all in. And that was the problem that no one would give you money while you are still employed 60%, right? So it's somehow you need to it's a chicken egg problem. You don't have time to really raise funds. And then if
00:34:19
Speaker
You cannot raise funds if you don't have the time, but you need to also fund yourselves. You need to work so you don't have the time, et cetera. And so at one point, you've just come to the decision where you're like, okay, am I now going to be an employee or am I going to be an entrepreneur? And if you want to be an entrepreneur, then you need to take this risk and make the jump into nothing. You just jump.
00:34:46
Speaker
away from your nice well-paid job. By the way, you can always go back, right? So that's not the problem at all. So it's actually not that big of a risk, but it feels like as a young person, when you look at your peers, they all have great jobs, you know, earning eight to 10k a month, right, in their 20s, etc. And you basically jump off
00:35:11
Speaker
a job and go into a couple of months of maybe earning almost nothing, right? And then taking a lot of time until you actually earn a good salary, if even, because still nine out of 10 startups are failures, right? So it is a big risk. And this risk you need to be able to tolerate and just jump and take a leap of faith and have a lot of commitment and a lot of
00:35:37
Speaker
you know, faith in yourself and in the case and the startup that you, and really the belief that, okay, I can do this, I can do this, no matter the odds, I can do this. And so that's what I did basically in summer 2020, where we had already two very, very small angel investors that said, okay, I'm going to invest a little bit of money if you go all in and if you quit your job.
00:36:06
Speaker
And at the same time, I actually had an offer from another consulting company that would have paid me like 10K a month. So six figures a year would be a great job, et cetera. But obviously that I would have needed to do that full-time. And then I was really confronted with the decision, okay, should I go for a well-paid job?
00:36:29
Speaker
and do a career in consulting, or am I going to be an employee, maybe not earning anything for a couple of months or even years, maybe being a failure, et cetera, but learning a lot and making great network and having the opportunity as well, at least to go for the big shot and maybe create a unicorn or a big, successful startup.
00:36:56
Speaker
So I decided obviously for the second, so I quit my job. I didn't take the management consulting offer. And first of July then, with really almost no money left, we went live, my co-founder Adam and I, with the first version of the Relay app, which is really an MVP that we hacked together in a couple of months. And we released it on the App Store, on both App Stores, Apple and Android.
00:37:24
Speaker
And then here we were, no money, but two ambitious people and one application. And then we had to figure the rest out from there. But definitely one advice I would give is really listen to yourself, whether you want that or not, whether you can tolerate this risk, whether you are made for an entrepreneur, and then just take the risk and take the plunge and jump
00:37:52
Speaker
at one point, do everything you can part time until you feel like, okay, now if I want to reach the next step, next level, I have to go all in and then go all in and just have faith in yourself and never give up, hustle and work your ass off. There is always, there are a lot of problems, but there are always solutions. Find these solutions.
00:38:16
Speaker
And you will, even if you do very small steps at the beginning, we raised 20K at the beginning. 20K is really nothing. That's basically the revenue that we are making a day now. But that's what we needed then three and a half years ago to just keep it, make it to the next level. Just create this first MVP in a couple of months and then bring it live. Then you're alive.
00:38:42
Speaker
Already, you have something to show. You have an application to show. You have first users, first very small revenues to show. And then that was the next step of finding, based on that first traction, finding angel investors. We found some angel investors were not a huge round, but at least we were able to raise $300K. And then with that, you can grow the team a little bit, improve the tech a little bit, grow the user base a little bit,
00:39:10
Speaker
implement a referral program to grow even more and then you run out of money again and then you have to raise another round, another answer. It's always one step further and just never give up. That's a cheesy but a true advice that comes from heart generally. Just never give up. It only stops. You only fail when you give up. As long as you don't give up, you're still in the game and you can still
00:39:39
Speaker
There's still another day where you can do everything you can to make it in the next step and to eventually win. You mentioned several things that speak to me because I have been there and I'm still on my way, as I'm sure you are too. You mentioned the fact that you work eight to 10 hours a day. So over three days, if you work eight hours flat out, that's 24 hours.
00:40:05
Speaker
knowing that in France the average is to work 35 hours but most people don't work 35 hours flat out but that's another story I stress this because it's an important point and the intensity with which you work in my opinion it's better to work two hours intensely at 100% rather than three hours at 50 or 60% so
00:40:27
Speaker
Eight or ten hour days are the norm for entrepreneurs, I think. Next, you mentioned the fact that regularity beats intensity, which is a concept that perfectly complements what I just mentioned previously. And I think you are right. I was listening to a podcast from a Swiss guy who is a French podcast from a content creator and entrepreneur who inspired me a lot called Eric Flag.
00:40:50
Speaker
And he had invited another athlete, an entrepreneur, Bazinga. And Bazinga was explaining that once you have done something for 365 days, no matter how, after those 365 days, that thing is ingrained in you. Hence the importance of habits, the mindset of an entrepreneur and those around him. There are lots of factors that come into play.
00:41:13
Speaker
And it's a bit beyond the scope of this podcast, but not that much, because we will be regularly tackling principles linked to mindset and personal development, even though I would like to create another podcast for that. In short, I have spread myself a bit thin. Then you mentioned a question you ask yourself, which is, what brings me to the next step? What's the thing that brings me to the next step? Because very often, it's just one thing.
00:41:40
Speaker
In my opinion, you don't need to have a to-do list of 100 things to do to answer this question. In the example of my website, the next big step is to implement a login. Okay, but before implementing a login system, I can implement a comment validation system and therefore divide this login step into two.
00:41:59
Speaker
create a comment space and then create a login. But I think that as an entrepreneur you need to know what your priority project is and even if you can't do everything because this big project takes time, it's essential to know how to say no and to be fully committed to the task which once done will enable you to see even bigger
00:42:20
Speaker
And it doesn't matter, in the meantime other things fall by the wayside, because saying yes to one thing means saying no to 10 others. Then you mentioned the scarcity of resources, the environment, the fact that we earn little and that earning will take time. It's all true, in the beginning resources are tiny, especially time, which is why it's important to use it wisely.
00:42:43
Speaker
Then as for money, even if at some point the figures become interesting, you need to put processes in place, which can be compliance, as you mentioned, but also recruiting, training people, associating, etc. And all these things take time and therefore don't necessarily lead directly to more money in the short term.
00:43:01
Speaker
On the other hand, the long-term objective is to generate more income. And finally, you mentioned two things. I would like to say a few words about. Firstly, you said that you need to believe in yourself and treat yourself well. I think these are two essential concepts and I totally agree with you. Everyone has different ways of believing in themselves and treating themselves well, but for me it's essential to do so.
00:43:24
Speaker
You mentioned 10,000. 10,000 in Switzerland is not the same as 10,000 in France. And as you also quite rightly said, even without money, surrounding yourself with ambitious people is a huge help to an entrepreneur who wants to get started.
00:43:38
Speaker
I know that you have to go, so maybe we will organize a second session or a second episode or not. Let's see, but I have still a kind of last question about, let's say, the first steps, et cetera. As you say, bring it live and make it real, know what is the next step and always improve. And I think it's what
00:44:06
Speaker
It's one of the key elements for sure.
00:44:09
Speaker
What are the main steps, a part of the volume? Because I guess that the more Bitcoin that you sell, the better your business is. But can you give us the main steps and the main milestones that you have reached since the beginning of your project? Maybe not only your app, what are the really
00:44:38
Speaker
projects and things that in your mind when you when you succeeded you were thinking okay this is really this is something that
00:44:48
Speaker
I have worked on a lot and I know it was one of my goals. I know that in my example, for example, it's one of my website that I have finished and that I'm really proud and this is something that I had in my list since maybe one or two years to have a version that I like and that I won't touch for a long period of time. So another one is the association also that I have created the fact to
00:45:14
Speaker
create a structure that was the first administration structure and so for the past and what do you think are the also the next milestone and and then we will conclude for today.
00:45:28
Speaker
Perfect. Yeah. I love what you said about your website that you're really proud about, and it doesn't matter how many people are visiting it maybe or whatever, how much money you make with it, but you're very proud that you have created this website and that is out there and live and working. And so that's what we felt, my co-founder Adam and I, when we were finally releasing this first version of the app.
00:45:54
Speaker
I was so fucking proud, you know, when I was first able to download my own app and I was like, maybe one of the first 10 people to download this app from the app store. And I was so proud to see it on my home screen, you know, on my iPhone. I was, I was like, fuck man. I mean, I did, this is what I did. And this was my idea. I created the logo and now it's on my phone. It's there and people use it.
00:46:21
Speaker
That was the biggest milestone so far from having the idea probably beginning of 2019 to then mid of 2020 really bring it live finally against all the odds and with very low resources with almost no money. We did it. That was a big milestone. And then the next big milestone was I think raising funds
00:46:48
Speaker
Raising a couple of millions from from a VC and was also an amazing milestone because it allowed us to then go scale build really grow the team and the case, etc.
00:47:01
Speaker
Um, also the first million, uh, in trading volume from, um, users that I think we achieved by the end of our first year, 2020, after a couple of months of growing life, I was also a huge milestone because it showed, you know, the validation that, okay, people really like that. People use it, use the product. It solves a problem problem for them and they are willing to pay something for it.
00:47:26
Speaker
This was the first step of, okay, this can become a profitable business at one point. So that was very, um, satisfaction, uh, you know, it brought us a lot of satisfaction. Um, and, and it was a big milestone and then big, uh, getting licensed because we needed, if we wanted to have the whole, because so far we had an app that was connected to a broker that did the whole, you know, exchanging from fiat money to Bitcoin, et cetera.
00:47:55
Speaker
And we needed to insource that. We wanted to have that under one roof to really be, you know, not only a Bitcoin wallet, but also a Bitcoin broker where you are actually making most of the money. And you need that if you want to become a big financial service provider and to have that technology in-house and to be able to do that, you need a license. So the whole licensing process then started after our first funding round in 2021.
00:48:23
Speaker
And it took us around six months. It cost us probably 100K or something. But then we finally got this license. And at the same time, we also built the whole broker, the whole technology within this half a year, which was a crazy feat. It was a crazy achievement and a great milestone for us back then and the whole team.
00:48:48
Speaker
And maybe last but not least, beginning of last year, we then started not only like from the retail business that we have, you know, a lot of small users that use the app. We also started an OTC desk where we now would also serve big customers, high net worth individuals, you know, these rich people.
00:49:09
Speaker
that are investing 100K or 500K or even a million into Bitcoin. They usually don't use the app, right? They want to have advice. They want to have a point of contact, a person they can talk to, etc., to help them with their big transactions.
00:49:30
Speaker
And this also required more technology, building a team and more regulatory oversight, et cetera. And that, once we have established that, and now we have reached a really great volume with that, far into two digits, millions amounts. Last year, that was also a big milestone to kind of start expanding also
00:49:59
Speaker
to other products and other customer segments. Now, moving forward, I'm really looking forward about our Lightning integration. That's kind of the next step for Bitcoin in general, but also for our app. So very soon, users will not only have a Bitcoin on-chain wallet, but also a Bitcoin Lightning wallet in the app. And they will be able to use the broker and also the wallets of buying and selling, but also sending and receiving
00:50:29
Speaker
with lightning as well in 24-7 lightning speed for almost no cost. So that will be a great next step and will allow us to also onboard many more users to Bitcoin and to Relay. So that's what I am really looking forward to. And in terms of legal and compliance and like regulatory, we will again get a new license
00:50:57
Speaker
Also, hopefully by the end of this year, we are in the process of getting the so-called MICA license in France. We now have a broker license in Switzerland. But in order to really access the whole European market and being able to actively acquire new users in these other countries outside of Switzerland, we need this license. And so this is quite a heavy process. It's much higher. It takes not six months, but probably 12 to 15 months to get it.
00:51:27
Speaker
And it's more costly and it involves also building a company in Paris, et cetera, and hiring people. So it's a bigger project than the license we have now. But once we have it, it will unlock a lot of potential for future expansion in Europe. And so that's a milestone that is very exciting. And then last but not least, fundraising. We are working on a
00:51:53
Speaker
big growth rounds, also in the two digits, million amounts that will enable us to really aggressively spend marketing budget and acquire new users, expand their user base, doing great marketing campaigns, but also invest more in our product and technology and team just to make the next step. So I think this funding round will also be a great milestone.
00:52:22
Speaker
Okay, that's quite impressive since the beginning and I think it will inspire a lot of people. Julian, thank you so much for your time and maybe see you in another episode. Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed it.