Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 10—Joe DePaulo on Talese, Kramer, and What It Means to be Edited
159 Plays10 years ago
Joe DePaulo is a freelance features writer whose work has appeared in the New York Times, SB Nation Longform and The Boston Globe Magazine, just to name a few. In this conversation we talk about some of the work that we turn to for inspiration and guidance. We also delve into Joe’s life as a freelancer, how he balances the harsh realities of making a living and doing the work he loves. That’s should whet your appetite enough for the time being. If you have the time, give the podcast a download/subscription, maybe give it a review. If these things add up I may be able to afford better equipment and produce an increasingly better listening product. Give a visit to brendanomeara.com and slam down your email so you stay up to date on the podcast and other musings. It’s a weekly email that goes out on Tuesdays. That’s it. Listen to Joe speak words!
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Guest
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to the Hashtag CNF Podcast, Episode 10. I'm your host, Brendan O'Mara. Today's guest is Joda Paolo, freelance features writer and sports writer, whose work has appeared in the New York Times, Boston Globe Magazine, and SB Nation Long Form. And part of what's really cool about this podcast, humble as it is,
00:00:22
Speaker
is that i get to in some small way promote people's work i admire and i just get to talk shop as i hope you've grown to like so far in the limited showings of this podcast this one's pretty great in that we get to sort of dive into this process we kind of talk about some of the
Joe DiPaolo's Writing Process
00:00:43
Speaker
Works that have inspired Joe and also me talk shopping. We also just Share a lot of his insights into his own working process which is applicable to anybody veteran or rookie so Let's count it down in Spanish today's dos uno podcasto. I
Profiling Vladimir Klitschko
00:01:18
Speaker
Hello. Hey, is this Joe? Hey, Brent, what's happening, man? Thanks very much for being on the podcast. Again, I'll start things off by just asking you what brought you to Fort Lauderdale. I imagine it's the story you're working on right now. Yeah, I have a... I've spent a good bit of time with the heavyweight boxing champion Vladimir Klitschko over the past couple of months.
00:01:49
Speaker
you know i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i
00:02:17
Speaker
uh... and uh... if i was there spent three days there and and uh... very very fascinating guy very expansive interviews very smart guy hold the p p in sport science from uh... from uh... the uh... from kiav university uh... as it been formally known uh... you know that that national university in in ukraine uh... you just uh... a learned man a very uh... a very
00:02:46
Speaker
engaging subject every apple bowl guy which i hadn't guessed if you're a follower of boxing uh... you know that some sometimes both both he and his brother of the tally uh... who's but i don't care if you have uh...
00:03:02
Speaker
both have come off, you know, in terms of boxing style at times is a little mechanical and wooden, but, you know, the Vladimir Kutzka is really an engaging personality when you spend some time with him in a room and really fascinating guys. Now, I'm working on a profile of him. It'll run sometime next week.
00:03:25
Speaker
uh... we're looking forward to it and i think it's it's it's going to be a uh... in a very interesting piece you know a lot of old into some of the situation and uh... in in ukraine uh... obviously uh... into the the conflict is devastated uh... you know that the nation uh... over there and and uh...
00:03:45
Speaker
you know and florida crystal picked up quite a bit about uh... what he'd seen you know during his trips over there and and that what his brother had to deal with the mayor of the capital city uh... you know i a lot of a lot of ground was covered you know either by the new father is a engaged to uh... he had a chair of uh... of uh... television in nashville uh... you know that they had a quite a at the optics of that couple rather quite interesting because
00:04:14
Speaker
he six-foot-six and she's a belief four eleven lost uh... so i had to just put it up for a graphically unique celebrity parent but uh... you know that it appears to be a happy one from from from the outside and and uh... you know uh... they've been uh... at here so i recently gave birth to the couple short child a daughter in kaya
00:04:38
Speaker
and uh... and and so that they're really uh... interesting guy uh... and we'll try to bring him to life here and and uh... introduces it uh... you you know i had to find out of this man in a coming up next week at this first fight me in the united states in eight years so that uh... for a lot of people uh... they they'll just be getting reacquainted with with uh... with this guy but but uh... looking forward to having that one out there
The Honesty of Boxing
00:05:05
Speaker
So what is your particular draw to boxing? You've written a lot about it in some very high profile boxers like Pacquiao and Mayweather. And I wonder, you know, what is the draw, what draws you to it and what do you find interesting enough that you're able to write about it with the authority that you do? I love the vulnerability of the subject. I mean, you're there, you know, you're
00:05:32
Speaker
uh... in in the rain on it uh... you know i'm i didn't might have enjoyed carol on the subject to rent and i really like it uh... it it's it's funny you know he did that boxing does seem to have an appeal to writers i think that the characters are very honest i think there's been a candor in in boxers and trainers and people around that sport that uh... that you don't find in many sports
00:05:59
Speaker
these days partially because I think it's out of necessity that boxing has taken a dive in popularity in the mainstream. So they haven't been with a few notable exceptions like Floyd Mayweather.
00:06:19
Speaker
i haven't been carefully managed uh... as micromanages there's a lot of mainstream athletes today seeking actually get these guys uh... just to sit down and and talk with you can't believe in in a way that uh... athletes in many other sports don't and and and to go back to that vulnerability and you know it's it you know it's it's it's it's really
00:06:45
Speaker
you do character revealing i believe in a way that uh... some other sports maybe aren't or aren't as much i think you know approach and consider football for instance whether the players are uh... in helmets and and uh... you know you do a lot of times they are faceless entities you know it's a place for
00:07:08
Speaker
being here serving you did this great entity of the nfl uh... you know to keep comparing the two gladiators sports you know you know i think you get much more of an idea of a person character uh... in in the boxing ring uh... and and seeing what they do and seeing uh... how they conduct themselves in and out of the ring so i i i i like it as a subject a lot i think that that uh... it really is a great venue for writing
00:07:36
Speaker
Yeah, just like you said with the vulnerability, they are quite literally stripped down, right down to their trunks and gloves. So it's like everything is out there for you to see. And do you find that their personalities come through in their fighting style? Yeah, I think that that's an interesting point. You know, to speak of Mayweather here in advance of the big fight in a couple of weeks.
00:08:05
Speaker
you know that there is a guy who is doing style yet it did to a degree you know you could certainly argue uh... mirrors uh... you know if it is you know out of the right personal uh... in terms of of the you know the the ability to check uh... you know it in terms of you know maybe a nomadic tendency that he has in the ring and it doesn't stand in one spot you know it's hard to pick down in the right
00:08:29
Speaker
and he's hard to pin down out of the ring. He's just very, very evasive. You know, if he's a hard guy to get a handle on, you know, about it, you know, he's an exception, certainly, to what I was talking about with the carefully constructed persona, and he's a hard guy to get a handle of. So I think, yeah, that his fighting style kind of does mirror his out-of-the-ring persona.
00:08:57
Speaker
And I think that can be, whereas Manny Pacquiao is a straightforward, straight ahead, direct kind of person. And you're gonna see that play out on May 2nd, I think, both fighters employing those strategies. And yeah, to a degree, I think they mirror the persona out of the ring. I think that's a pretty astute observation. It doesn't hold always.
00:09:28
Speaker
you know i i can't you know that that top of my head i mean uh... you know what you know i think we've got a good example of it actually because you know he he is uh... you know very analytical personally or really you know it's not really scientific in his approach uh... in and out of the right he is it out of the right he he he applied the same principles kind of a video inside
00:09:54
Speaker
where he just kind of, you know, in the ring he uses his jab to kind of break opponents down and, you know, knows exactly when to go in and is very measured and cautious in his approach and at times it has maybe cost him some sense, but that's just the way he is and that's how he fights. So I would say not in every case, but there are plenty of cases where in-ring performance and out of the ring behavior are kind of
Joe's Writing Journey
00:10:25
Speaker
very close to each other. And backing up a bit now, you know, way back, where did you grow up? I grew up in, I've lived basically my whole life in a five mile radius in Northeast Queens in New York and grew up in a co-op
00:10:52
Speaker
uh... in uh... in in a nice little community called a little neck and uh... from there moved around uh... couple of times that i've landed now in bay side which is about uh... it might have five miles away uh... so i've i've i've lived uh... pretty shelter block which is no way to go about it for a writer but thankfully i've got a bit of traveling uh... and and that uh... helped help me gain perspective but yeah i grew up in
00:11:24
Speaker
And so when you were in high school and everything, was there a footprint at that time that led you down this road into sports journalism and some narrative journalism?
00:11:42
Speaker
uh... yes and no i got i had i had started writing for a very young age and i wrote this terrible fiction uh... uh... when i was growing up uh... well even before high school like eleven years old and uh... uh... my family family one of the uh... little comadore printers
00:12:07
Speaker
And, you know, you had to print out the holes on the side of the paper, you know, that old paper. Oh yeah, the dot matrix. Yeah, cut. What were you going to say? Oh yeah, like the dot matrix printers and... Yeah, exactly, yeah. It took an hour to print the page kind of thing. And I had like this 55 page novella
00:12:37
Speaker
and i would print it out and if there was one mistake or whatever they had taken part of the re-print the entire thing i don't know why i did that but i did that you know and so yeah i would and meanwhile of course there were uh... italy of mistakes and and uh... i'll check out i would cringe if uh... uh... uh... copy that ever serviced but yeah i did you know if i did that uh... it might
00:13:07
Speaker
very early years uh... i've always read uh... and amalike narrative sports journalism so there was that uh... but but really for a while i was kind of thinking about uh... eventually did a bit of radio i was my first uh... fory and a communications industry so really if you would pin me down you talk about high school if you could be down in those years
00:13:35
Speaker
uh... i'd probably wouldn't would have said that uh... that my dream job was uh... was either working on or doing a radio show at some point uh... uh... uh... uh... of some sort uh... i think that was that was it for me so i had a toe in the water for writing but uh... the love of the medium that i have now
00:14:02
Speaker
didn't develop until later for me.
Literary Inspirations and Rereading
00:14:07
Speaker
Okay. And who were some of those writers that you were reading that informed a lot of the work you're doing today? Well, I mean, you know, I've obviously collected those Best American Sports Writing books, which
00:14:27
Speaker
are curated by editor now at SB Nation, Glenn Stalatin, and you know, and those of you who get a treasure trove of stuff, and you know, and it's funny, you know, in New York you have, you know, a lot of prominent columnists, but I was never
00:14:50
Speaker
uh... really a big fan of the column that person you know you have mike lupica you have uh... that some of the other people live uh... you have to have done good calmer you know and i thought that not at all the criticism of their work but uh... you know i thought that's just not the type of writing i was drawn to i was drawn to the more narrative style that that was employed in the uh... that american sports writing book and and
00:15:16
Speaker
You know, so for me, you had, you know, people, people like Chip and Kramer was one that was, that jumps off the page for me. You had, you know, as one example, you know, his Ted Williams profile for Metz Choir was, you know, really just about as good as it gets.
00:15:44
Speaker
uh... you know that uh... you know even though you want to call on this but i would like to talk about uh... jimmy prezland jimmy prezland was uh... with with somebody that was a big influence in my house you know my mother is kind of uh... she kind of shared this uh... love of of the or
00:16:02
Speaker
uh... maybe i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i
00:16:18
Speaker
it just gets read differently and admired differently, and Jimmy Breville was always a favorite. He was with New York Newsday for quite a while, and yeah, he was a columnist, but he did it differently, kind of like Murray Kempton, who was another that was an early favorite. Jimmy Jimmy Breville just had the language of the streets down.
00:16:43
Speaker
and and uh... you know it's just had a really acceptable style i thought um... get on something that uh... you know that uh... not not to you know you got to help your own style but but you know the way that you know he captured new york in his writing i know it was something that i always admired to give you a couple you know i i i i would say richard and craver and and uh... it's a problem with too early biggie uh... for me
00:17:12
Speaker
Are there, where do you stand on rereading stuff? Some people tend to not reread anything, whether it be books or magazine pieces, because there's just so much out there. And then there's another camp, and this is kind of where I am. I figure if there's something that I really, really like, like Michael Patternitti's One Fall of 111 Heavy.
00:17:34
Speaker
I read that over and over again over the course of a year because it's that good and you always get something more out of it. So I'm a re-reader of really good stuff, especially novels. I read Great Gatsby every year. Where do you stand on re-reading stuff that you truly admire and draw inspiration from or do you constantly seek out new stuff and seek your inspiration in that way too?
00:18:00
Speaker
uh... i don't i don't really know i'm totally with you on the rereading i mean i i i'm totally with you uh... you know i i i just you know i i i i think it part of uh... part of uh... you know my formula is a writer who is just a section one when when i get uh... when when i really yet uh... an idea
00:18:26
Speaker
uh... all uh... book uh... p strict in my head i can't get it out i've got to read it again immediately i've got a i've got a look at the song again there you know i gave them a song that come down the radio and i like all of the new at a hundred times about a loop
00:18:42
Speaker
you know i i i i i just get very excessive about uh... things like that and and download books are no exception i i i uh... or or a piece of writing it no exception i will i will reread and yet get something different focused on different parts and and break them down and analyze the maybe read the different actually now in the last few years for me reading things that i had uh... i'd loved in my youth in my part of years
00:19:12
Speaker
reading them more technically now. So yeah, all of that stuff is definitely part of it for me. I do love to reread. I'm kind of with you on that. There are so many things out there, so many things that you'd consider classics or must-reads.
00:19:33
Speaker
for a person that I've just never gotten to. And, you know, I make no apologies for that. That just kind of is the way I've done it, you know. And, you know, there's never enough time to get all the stuff out there. But I like what I've got as a collection.
00:19:55
Speaker
Now you cited the Ben Kramer, Richard Ben Kramer piece. What do you think of Ted Williams now? What are some of the other, maybe two or three pieces that you do go back to and you read with that magnifying glass and the x-ray vision to see how they did it and then apply that to your work?
00:20:19
Speaker
to go outside of the sports realm uh... for a second i would i would uh... i would i would i would like to leave uh... mark fear of the new yorker uh... uh... it wrote a story of a guy but the twenty five years ago now on uh... ricky j
00:20:38
Speaker
the uh... the the magician and character actor who you might have seen uh... if you ever seen uh... uh... a david mallet movie uh... he's the short guy with the beard uh... who uh... who uh... who had been known to turn up in david mallet movies and and and he is wonderful magician and and thing really over the course of about fifteen thousand words
00:21:06
Speaker
brings him to life in such a unique, vivid way, at least in a textbook. It was so expertly sketched. And there was no single part of that story that was just...
00:21:24
Speaker
special you know you wouldn't say you know with an a-minus kind of lead you know i'm doing a magic trick and and wowed everybody you know it but it just draws you in the story just draws you in little by little and at the end you have this perfect complete portrait of this very fascinating individual and and i i i just really admired the way that was done and
00:21:48
Speaker
uh... it it's really just uh... look at me about it perfect uh... of a piece of writing uh... structurally and everything from beginning to end is that uh... that i can think of i mean for that would be one uh... uh... maybe uh...
00:22:07
Speaker
i hate to start trying to get you get that one because i want to stay away from the obvious one point like that you had a cold and uh... you know i i i i you know don't necessarily i want to think outside the box a little here uh... you know but but uh... you know that uh... uh... i'll bring up another police peace the uh... it is profile of the dramatic uh... you know uh... and uh... that that's another in my uh...
00:22:36
Speaker
in in in my uh... must read it might be like a five-year-old thing at a five-year-old that night i've probably not but you know i thought that's about the mother must read for me uh... you know i i just the you know that the uh... it's uh... you know very very difficult subject obviously in the in the certainly the national and and uh...
00:23:03
Speaker
and and police you know really and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and
Capturing Simple Moments
00:23:31
Speaker
Dimaggio would shank a shot like Thales would go out and like shag his golf balls and bring him back to him and that kind of engendered some sort of a trust with him that he was gonna hang around as Thales was always want to say that what he does is the art of hanging out and he was just with him and I picture him in his full three-piece suit pulling golf balls out of a water trap.
00:23:56
Speaker
uh... i'm sure that what those those were it that the earlier the the most uh... comfortable surroundings for a man who definitely is very stylish yeah uh... but uh... but uh... but yeah i heard that story and and and uh... if you have to get back to the the art of hanging out i mean i i i i definitely have co-opted that idea now i i you know i will tell a subject that you have to kick me out because i'm gonna
00:24:29
Speaker
uh... whether it's in a conversation or really more just fly on the wall and and picking up natural dialogue which is my favorite uh... you know i'm just trying to uh... you know but uh... blend into the room a little bit which is not the easiest thing for me reading it at sixty two and fifty pounds you know if i don't think like that but i think you tend to stand out a little bit but i try to uh... you know uh... you know just he's out of the scene and and
00:24:48
Speaker
I'm going to be here as long as you let me.
00:24:58
Speaker
just pick up whatever dialogue I can, and that's the stuff I really like to do, and just hang around and wait for the thing to happen. And just get as much as you can. I'm a big believer in that, and that telly story on Demesio perfectly does a persona like that. That's exactly what he did, and that's exactly why it works.
00:25:28
Speaker
Yeah, and another scene in that, there's two that are really poignant to me. It's about maybe a third of the way through or halfway through, where Marilyn Monroe is recounting her performance with the USO troops and a USO show, and all the soldiers are cheering for her, and she comes back and tells Joe. She's like, oh, Joe, you've never heard such cheering. And he just says, oh, yes, I have.
00:25:57
Speaker
And then it just goes into this whole scene of how DiMaggio was getting those and earning those cheers long before Marilyn Monroe and louder and worshiped more than she ever was. It's such a small but revealing moment that, I mean, you know, it really is because it tells you everything you need to know about DiMaggio. I mean, you know, because even if it's true, and it obviously was with him,
00:26:25
Speaker
it's not the kind of thing you say most people wouldn't say it you know and and just uh... the way he said it you know so for more only uh... you you know you can hear him you know that uh... uh... you know that you in the way that it's presented you could get here you could feel like this icy look on his face and you can hear him say more fully coming up yes i have you know and and you realize that he's not happy for all of this you know if he is
00:26:55
Speaker
If we're all as fame and fortune, he's really not at peace. And that all comes out in that moment. And that's, you know, that's the kind of moment, that's the kind of revealing character moment you look to deliver with these profile stories is, you know, just that kind of thing that just gets to the core of the person. And, you know, and think about how simple it was. It's just a two line exchange, but you can get all of that.
00:27:24
Speaker
as a reader and a writer, you can get all of that out of something so simple.
00:27:31
Speaker
Right, and then the very end of that tour, he gets into the batting cage and he, everyone is watching him and he takes a couple swings and he stings his hands on the bat and he just, you know, he drops it, he goes out of the cage and he's like, there was a time you could never get me out of that cage. And that's just another line that just reeks of sadness in that forlornness you're talking about. It's just, that's the hammer to end the story on.
00:27:56
Speaker
uh... i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i
00:28:25
Speaker
i know it method to come into some dispute but but uh... but but the way the writing is about as good as it gets across the board right now you know i'm sure we could we can talk about the greats is uh... all day long but i i i kind of want to bring it back to your work obviously because you know i think you have to get your work in your work it's it's it's it's it's it
Recognition and Challenges of Writing
00:28:52
Speaker
Well, of course you know that's not what I mean. I'm messing around, dude. I know. Because your work clearly has been lauded. You were a notable selection for Best American Sports Writing, the last issue. And I'll start there and just ask you what that meant to you to be a notable selection and the most iconic anthology in sports writing.
00:29:16
Speaker
i think it was the coolest thing ever it really was i was like i was walking on air man it was it was uh... you know that i have come
00:29:29
Speaker
uh... i've come to the total of that book i always read it i've come to love it uh... you know i've i've uh... come to develop a very uh... what what i consider a a close personal friendship with the man who put it together um... and and uh... uh... i'd just been and uh... it meant everything to me and you know to uh... to to to be there and and
00:29:58
Speaker
uh... you know i've felt a real sense of belonging and then so many people validation uh... that uh... i i could i could hack it you know and and uh... you know to to to see you know they could go through you know and i have to go through all the other names but you know all the that creme de la creme of of uh... twenty-first century american sports writing uh... you know and then and then for me to get to my name and i was uh... i was you know that there's no
00:30:27
Speaker
There's no downplaying that moment for me. This is the best way to prove it. There's no humble bragging that moment. This is a straight up brag. And a measure of pride for me. I love that my name went in that book and it does mean the world to me. And yeah, just very, very, very cool.
00:30:49
Speaker
Yeah, and you just alluded to it, that sense of validation, because I think there's so much rejection in what we do, at least I know that's the case with me, and I think it's easy to
00:31:05
Speaker
to lose sight of your abilities like you've gotten to a certain point and your abilities have brought you to this point but then sometimes you just get bludgeoned to death with with rejections there you can't land a feature your feature gets killed this that and the other and then you see your name and something like a
00:31:25
Speaker
Notable selections or something just resonates with with readers and so forth and you just what did that sense of Validation mean to you that it must have found I don't want to lead you with this But I imagine this is how you feel is that it's it's giving you at the greater permission To keep pursuing what you do and to do it the way you do it
00:31:48
Speaker
yeah i mean i thought that for me you know i mean when uh... to to take the ball and i mean you know and they did kind of lead me a little bit but it's perfectly cool i mean you know that that that uh... that uh... to that i get to pick a ball to run with it here i mean i think what you're you're hinting at it in the harsh financial reality yeah of of of this profession uh... and they do exist and it's it's it is it is a it is a real tough
00:32:17
Speaker
uh... living for you know really it for me right now it's about two-thirds of a living you know and uh... you know i have i've got a part-time job at school administration office uh... supplement uh... the the writing i'm doing and and and yes tough and yeah there are there are uh... thoughts of uh... uh... uh... you know maybe saying that hey you know maybe this can just be a hobby all all
00:32:44
Speaker
I'll abandon and do something else. Then as soon as one of those moments come along for me, those crises of confidence, I'll get a citation like that. That does help validate a little bit.
00:33:02
Speaker
i i i i can't uh... i can't abandon and i think that for me at this point i don't what else i do uh... but i i i really can't uh... you know apart from from radio obviously i really do consider that uh... that uh... you know you know if not i mean there are so many differences uh... it needed to be a part of the same general field and and and i have a lot of radio too but but uh... uh...
00:33:31
Speaker
For me, I really can't see myself. I don't think I'd be happy in some office 9 to 5 somewhere. And that's tough, because I would be happy with a family and a wife and children. Those are things I want, too. And those are things that realistically can't happen for me right now, because I'm just not in an economic position.
00:33:57
Speaker
uh... to to to make all that happen but uh... you know i i do it definitely you know when you when when something like that in my career does happen yes it does give you kind of the permission uh... to to go on and i think at this point for me i've gotten enough of those uh... ballad you know there's enough of that validation from outside sources uh... that that i'm not kind of
00:34:26
Speaker
test my lot at this point. Have you flirted with getting out of the business altogether? I imagine at this point you you might have reached a tipping point where things are things are pushing in a positive in a very positive way for you but was there ever a point where you thought like man this might just not happen? Oh many many many points yeah and and
00:34:53
Speaker
And yeah, I don't want to discount the possibility of even not happening in the future. I mean, it's just so tough out there, it really is. But I spoke to some journalism students a couple of weeks ago at the college where I work. And I told them, you got to love it. You got to love it.
00:35:17
Speaker
pick up a couple of it or else why do you think you're not doing that for the money yes that's going to put the money and uh... uh... in five and i have come to love it and and and uh... that's why i have to do it but that's your question yet absolutely i mean you know it is you know that the landlord does not want to hear that you love your job in the landlord want the money at the
00:35:40
Speaker
on the first of the month. So the landlord couldn't give a damn about your happiness. But that's where I've stood on that, just back and forth trying to just scratch and piece it all together. But yeah, they're certainly entertained.
00:36:04
Speaker
thoughts of abandoning or scaling back. And you know, you refer to it, there's kind of like a sliding scale of income right now. Like on the far left, let's say, is just a full, you know, sort of salaried type hourly job. And then on the other side is the freelancing. And then, you know,
00:36:28
Speaker
slowly starts to swing to one way and it's always a balance and you know yours is inching closer to the where your business is it's creeping towards more freelancing all the time how did when you were more to the left where you were supplementing where it might have been just more you loved it but more paid hobby how did you get access to
00:36:54
Speaker
characters and sources to be able to generate stories and then successfully pitch them. Well, you know, the first connection, I mean, I guess I'll give a career synopsis at this point. You know, I started, as I mentioned, my first communications job was on a radio where I was engineering at a talk radio network up in Connecticut.
00:37:20
Speaker
i'm going to pick up a second uh... network uh... that they're not the phone care america uh... progressive political talk network in uh... in vancouver uh... and uh... and i worked on my way to a uh... to add to a decent promotion actually uh... uh... air america that uh... two weeks from that uh... when the company went under
00:37:46
Speaker
uh... that was February of two thousand ten i believe and uh... at that point i had a few months where i was just really out of it and and you know i took that hard you know i really did and uh... and and when uh... i uh... uh... i've got to do uh... myself off uh... i i connected with uh... with uh... my dear friend no back and uh...
00:38:16
Speaker
you know i i had uh... said that i've got wanted to do uh... a part-time uh... at uh... at you know for the character of the character down and you know i don't want that i know that there is is is near and dear to your heart uh... obviously uh... but uh...
00:38:38
Speaker
uh... actually i think it part two thousand nine obvious is what was when your book was said that right at the end of the day that i i i i i didn't mean that uh... yeah i can't do that but but finally yeah yeah uh... uh... uh... so so uh... uh... so so we we did that we were we worked for uh... for for church will go and uh... and uh...
Accessing Characters and Sources
00:39:02
Speaker
uh... it for uh... for we could a podcast every day and a couple of days i took over claire's blog uh... and and she's like you know i'm not that you know you should uh... you know you should to think about you know kind of uh... you know maybe doing for more writing you know i i'd always thought i'd have writing ability you know i mean in radio sometimes you know you pre-prepared uh... segment to pre-preuse segments i thought that i could write for the year
00:39:32
Speaker
You know, and put together these types of montages. We did this segment, Claire and I, that I always liked, you know, these four-minute NPR-style pre-produced segments where I would write the script and Claire would voice it over, and we'd use some natural sound, and they were basically just, you know,
00:39:52
Speaker
750-word pieces just with the element of natural sound. And I always liked the way those came out. And Claire kind of, after that Saratoga season ended, you know, our relationship
00:40:06
Speaker
uh... with with churchill downs with uh... with who had come to an end but but you know claire help set me up in i get me some other opportunities you know that brian dipsy who uh... created just took over as managing editor of uh... of uh... of the of the horse racing nation website and and uh... you know uh... and and i would go to the front platform and and uh... uh...
00:40:33
Speaker
and so one thing led to the next and led to the next and for racing you can get, because of the sport's diminished mainstream popularity, you can get closer to the stars than you could in another sport. Racing was a great sport for access.
00:40:56
Speaker
So that was how I got early access was just covering a niche sport. And then one connection leads to another and then I landed an ESPN byline and then I hustled and landed bylines and some smaller papers and then eventually a couple of New York Times bylines
00:41:22
Speaker
uh... and and and then and then the big break in my career actually if it wasn't the time that it was with black over at the nation and and uh... you know i i i had pitched him uh... unrelated uh... i i i picked up a horse racing story that for a variety of reasons he felt he couldn't go with uh... but he said he liked uh... uh... the way i was uh... thinking and going about it
00:41:51
Speaker
and he liked the way I was putting it together and I took the opportunity, you know, he had emailed me back, I'd given up on it, and he emailed me back and said, you know, you should think about shopping this store, maybe somebody else would take it, and I said, well, maybe no, I'm kind of off that now, but I did have this other idea, and that eventually led to the, to the, to the, to the Mike Francesca profile, the sports broadcaster in New York,
00:42:18
Speaker
uh... unnotoriously tough to land interview uh... and and and through a variety of a walk-in persistence uh... uh... we were able to get that access and uh... and and go from there but really quickly on this question before move on to that i want to bring up one piece i did you know the person is just starting out and is worried about access uh... to to to getting certain subjects
00:42:48
Speaker
uh... piece that i pointed my lawyer in a more recent career that i'm proud of where i have limited access with my profile michelle we for the for for the sports on earth website we really didn't have any special access for that i think that the only thing that i have it other people didn't with a ten-minute quickie phone conversation uh... but but really all it was this was a piece that that could have easily been done
00:43:15
Speaker
by just a spectrum here at that tournament and being out there there was nobody you know what i want to talk about hanging around i got there on a ninety five degree day in in uh... jerry dot jersey i in in the tournament there she was playing in the pro-am uh... with with four amateurs and and i was out there when she peed off at seven a.m. and i was the only one there you had perfect sightline you're able to pick up dialogue perfectly
00:43:45
Speaker
You can find it. The stories are out there. You didn't need a credential for that. You didn't need any special access, you know, so you can get those kinds of stories if you just know where to look and know how to go about them. So I recommend NIT subjects.
00:44:03
Speaker
smaller sport the sports writing is your thing you know you're not going to get that close to an nba superstar uh... you know you're just not you know or or nfl superstar if i got to happen but uh... you know just pick your spot that's out there and what i've always admired about your work to you've always
00:44:23
Speaker
found a really strong central character, whether that be Francesca or Gary Stephens. You name it, you really get to the, they're the sun that the whole world, that everything orbits around.
00:44:42
Speaker
big personalities too, and I point to Francesa, what was that like interviewing someone who interviews for a living and is such a big personality?
Power Figures and Editorial Lessons
00:44:53
Speaker
Was that intimidating at all? And just kind of describe what that was like sitting down and speaking with someone who's such a New York icon.
00:45:02
Speaker
it wasn't intended yeah a little bit a little bit he's not the most welcoming sort uh... you know he he takes time to fill you out and and and i chronicle it from the story uh... he he really
00:45:19
Speaker
he suffers no fools and you get that impression from a very second that you know you get depression from uh... listening to his program where he helped dismiss uh... it is callers in in a matter of seconds oftentimes um... you know that as soon as they make a point that he's not on board with uh... or deliver in a less than compelling manner um... so the man suffers no fool when you feel that you know i'm sitting across from in his office and and uh...
00:45:48
Speaker
And yeah, there he is. And now at this point, the first time I met him and the first time I went up to his office and I was up there three times, but by the first time I had spent several months trying to arrange it. So we had had a number of off the record phone conversations at this point. And those were very instructive and those did help make things a bit easier for me.
00:46:15
Speaker
I had a vague idea of what to expect, having had all this phone time with him.
00:46:23
Speaker
it really did you know even although all the stuff was off the record it didn't form my reporting uh... and it helped get me comfortable to wear uh... where where i was you know because it was the first major assignment of my career uh... it did help get me comfortable to the kind of you have to sit across from yet very intimidating guy who did not look at me really at all
00:46:47
Speaker
for the first fifteen minutes of or chat and on the end of the right it wasn't out of this respect it was i was just leopardy he was testing me out and and i kind of had an inkling to be prepared for that and and uh... and and we're able to to make it work as a result but i want to go back real quick to but that you brought up at the beginning of that question which actually clinton i were talking about this just the other day
00:47:14
Speaker
was that for many writers, they have certain subjects that they're passionate about, that they're drawn to, and oftentimes they have a common thread. And for me, I think I've come to, in my self-analysis, learned that I'm compelled to write about power.
00:47:37
Speaker
and about powerful figures and what makes them that way, why do they want that? Do they want that? What does it take to be that? I think a fundamental question that I wrestle with when writing about powerful people is, can they be truly happy? I go back and forth on that one kind of. I think that central themes,
00:48:05
Speaker
uh... it did you emerge you know in the in uh... types of stories that i've i've pitched collected you know i'm just really drawn to you know the speech powerful uh... figures uh... and you know i just want to know i mean you know they go beyond obviously the simple what makes them tick but but i'm i'm just fascinated by the idea of power and and uh... and that's that's what i keep coming back to
00:48:32
Speaker
And you've worked with Glenn Stout a bunch of times and he's just a great voice and champion of long form and narrative journalism. What was it like to be really edited by someone with a scalpel that he possesses?
00:48:56
Speaker
It was a whole new world. And I've never, I've been fortunate, I hear about bad editors. I swear I've never had a bad editing experience. So I mean, I don't dismiss the craft at all. And with him, it was a whole new world. It really was.
00:49:18
Speaker
uh... detailed line-by-line comment uh... breaking down every word learning that every word counts every single word you know and and you wouldn't think that at least i didn't think that in a seven thousand eight thousand ten thousand word story that every word matters and every word count it does it really does because people have a really short attention spent these days
00:49:45
Speaker
It may matter more in a longer piece that every word has to count to keep the momentum sustained for that duration. Totally, totally. And to learn that lesson was incredibly instructive for me. It was crucial for me because I was wasting. I still do in early drafts waste words.
00:50:11
Speaker
you know i recognize their importance now and and uh... you know and and i i can't i mean it it night and day uh... just how much better that i've gotten as if i worked with glenn i mean uh... uh... i've been uh... worried about even thing like character ark and and uh... just uh... how do you know i kind of almost think of all of you go on the story sometimes there is existing three act
00:50:40
Speaker
you know we we decided to yet break you know even though there are five sections in the story we'd you know if you wanted me to think of it you know i have a three act kind of uh... uh... kind of uh... what you know play i guess i could say you know that just you know at the beginning you know we have uh... we have the princess of luddite
00:51:08
Speaker
which is how many have over the years perceived him in mainstream circles, in stories that have been written about him. That's a common portrayal. Then you have the kind of middle where maybe the evolution, we present the questions, is he a Luddite? And then ultimately the conclusion, no, he's far more shrewd than he ever let on.
00:51:38
Speaker
uh... you know we just we we went about it in that way we have an ark we have a person a transformation that happens over the course of seventy five hundred words and and so many things like that uh... that you know i think too many to list you know i think that i i consider second nature now uh... that that i would have never occurred to me uh... two years ago um... three years ago almost three years ago now i first met clint uh...
00:52:06
Speaker
you know that that stuff stuff has been in value about it valuable uh... you know and and great editors are working with the gold i mean they did you get one hang on because uh... they may make it better you know i mean i i can't i can't even read
00:52:22
Speaker
Anything I wrote before I ever met that guy now, I can't, it's painful, but, you know, and especially to go back to a little Commodore printer, I mean, you know, God forbid, but the experience of working with him has just been, you know, completely made me as a writer.
00:52:50
Speaker
Do you feel like after working with someone like Glenn that your criteria or let's just say your criteria for what you think is a good feature or your bar or threshold to proceed with the story has changed now? You have a better sense of what elements make for a good narrative.
00:53:12
Speaker
Yeah, instinctively, I think I do. I think I kind of have that feel now. I think that was something that I had a little bit of before. I referenced my obsession with certain things. That was probably the strongest part of my pre-Glenn game.
00:53:40
Speaker
if you will, was having an intuition and instinct for what makes a good story and, you know, I'm just drawn to certain things and, you know, I can't always explain it, but I think it is just instinct and, you know, I mean, Greta's certainly fine-tuned that, you know, specifically from a craft standpoint, but, you know, I just do believe that I have kind of
00:54:08
Speaker
That sixth sense of what makes for a compelling subject and have you ever had a real formative experience with a writer that you admire know someone you always looked up to and then you and you met him and you're just Well, you're like wow, that was that was a really cool experience a writer Well, it wasn't um, I mean I have You know
Influence of Paul Moran
00:54:37
Speaker
really have a bit lucky i mean that uh... met that the people that i have a little bit much of the meeting but what the jump out of death that question of the late paul moran over it uh... over over it uh... it was with uh... believe uh... i sat behind him for two years at sarah toga
00:54:55
Speaker
yeah about about all the that that old microwave in on that last row yeah i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i
00:55:09
Speaker
coaster oven and microwave and that's right that because i wasn't too uncomfortable to approach uh... the the guy around the press box for a real feet so i just plot like you're down there yes corporate at it you know i i i clear introduce me to paul maran and and i'd want totally uh... fanboy and and and and uh...
00:55:33
Speaker
and he kinda laughed and he was like, okay. And that was a transformative experience, as simple as it was, because it made me realize that he's just another guy. He's just another guy, and I'm just another guy, and we're all working steps. We get to do cool stuff and see cool stuff.
00:55:57
Speaker
and and be around cool people sometimes but but we're all working steps in the track and i mean there's no question about that now that i was very instructive for me help me you know i was really that was my first part of the press box in the sports press box uh... summer two thousand ten and i was really instructive for me as simple as that was uh... you know that that pomeran this this writer who i'd uh... read for so many years and and whose work i admired
00:56:36
Speaker
The level of his intelligence just was so humbling. I would read a piece from him and I would just have to curl up in a ball and sit in a corner just knowing that you would never ever reach the level of clarity and intelligence that he seemed to do on deadline pressure. It was just amazing.
00:56:56
Speaker
uh... and i think it's just a term tremendous tremendous work and and uh... you know really uh... somebody who just captured uh... the the racetrack very vividly uh... you know somebody you know kind of the habit to be brought with us quality of bringing a place to life and and uh... that that was something that that he was an expert at yes incredible depth of knowledge incredibly generous man a nice man
00:57:23
Speaker
You know, it's a very different place without him. I mean, you know, he is certainly missed by many. There's no question. Now, if you were starting, if you were at a fantasy league, fantasy draft for writers, what round would you draft Moran in? All time? Yeah. That's an interesting question.
00:57:52
Speaker
I have nothing to do with the quality of his work, but I think if you're including every rider, if we're limiting it to racing, if we're limiting it to sports, he'd be pretty high up there. If we're limiting it to racing, he'd be very high up there. He'd be a very great value pick.
00:58:16
Speaker
i suppose i don't know if any such leagues cropped up that i don't know about because i have died i am curious to know that but uh... yeah i i i think that a great value picked us up him up a little bit because yeah he's he's somebody and his knowledge kind of does pick up on you very very self-effacing and and and humble and and nice and and you know that you read his stuff and and
00:58:43
Speaker
and it's very very good but but yeah i guess maybe uh... uh... seven ground sleep or i don't know if she would have been you know i think that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that
00:58:54
Speaker
Before I let you get out of here, I want to ask you, if you had five on the low end, ten on the high end, you had to whittle down your book collection to either five or ten books because it was all you could keep.
Must-Have Books and Future Projects
00:59:12
Speaker
You can call it a bookshelf for the apocalypse, if you will. You need to keep something anchored to a world that was
00:59:19
Speaker
That existed before global pandemic, but you've got these five or five to ten books and what would they be? And you know, why would you hang on to them? And why would they be so formative for you? So my desert island books or apocalyptic books or whatever, okay, all right, let's go with Let's keep it. Let's keep it down a little bit. I don't want to I
00:59:46
Speaker
i don't think five is a good number. I will suffice for me. I don't want to, I mean, I could say catcher in the rye, but something like that, you know, I want to think outside the box a little bit here, like I say. I guess I'll start with the complete works, cheating a little bit, but I'll start with the complete works of Shakespeare.
01:00:13
Speaker
uh... like about the big shakespeare buff uh... and and uh... uh... you know i think i think just to show them and and i think she'll get rid of those she is writing uh... coupled with his innate understanding of people uh... i don't think there's anybody fiction or non-fiction that it ever understood people as well as shakespeare uh... and and you know you know i i think that uh...
01:00:42
Speaker
reading those plays it is a very instructive i think you learn a lot of awful lot of that human nature of the uh... reading week shakespeare and and and so i i would start with that i mean you know if there is what really uh... and as great a dramatist who as has ever been uh... so far at that uh... think uh... outside the bottle more recent than that uh...
01:01:11
Speaker
admission mark singer earlier uh... that ricky jay story it was with uh... uh... part of uh... and policy is called talk stories uh... that that that i'd love to with one of the number of pieces uh... profile of uh... uh... uh... our character studies with the name of the book my apologies character studies uh... with the with the name of the collection and he wrote uh...
01:01:42
Speaker
uh... he he he wrote uh... in a couple of works for safety doubt trump uh... you know i got to do this is a few uh... under the the radar people as well i've heard about a uh... uh... a guy who uh... who watches court cases uh... you know if you go through that's a good thing every every day this man's guy at the back of the courthouse uh... and you know it became like a professional juror
01:02:12
Speaker
and singer made of this unique, fascinating character. And so I would include that one. I think, trying to mix it up, I think I'd point out, I would say Angela's Ashes is about as well as memoir has ever been done for me, as good of a memoir as I've ever read.
01:02:40
Speaker
just you know capturing that uh... uh... you know i thought about right about places in the end just the true rears of of uh... mid twentieth-century ireland uh... just captured so so well by frank mccourt uh... in that story and get some of the desperate length he went to survive it really just uh... uh... great piece of craft at all wonderful wonderful memoir uh... just uh...
01:03:09
Speaker
uh... that that's that's a much for me i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i
01:03:39
Speaker
athletes of the age, you know, of the 20th century, but really it's an instructive book in terms of learning about American culture and society during that period, and our evolution as a nation, I think, is pretty well chronicled in there. So from DiMaggio to Muhammad Ali to Tiger Woods,
01:04:08
Speaker
uh... you know i i think you know that's all captured very well in there so uh... that that would be another uh... and uh... that point for me uh... i've talked a lot about joe de magie on uh... already so i'm i'm hesitant and richard vin kramer so i'm hesitant to put that one in there you know it uh... which of the national heroes like uh... which have been kramer's biography of uh... the measures
01:04:38
Speaker
as good as it gets for me. So I guess I will throw that in to talk about it here at this point. I just love the way that was, and a lot of parentheticals in that book. You can't go a single page in that book without multiple parentheticals being used, and just a very unique style for Ben Kramer, but just employed masterfully in that book.
01:05:05
Speaker
uh... you've got you know if he finished off the work that police start out of the pressure and uh... uh... i wanted to give you a one more here uh... i'm looking at my bookshelf actually as we uh... as we speak uh... and uh... uh... i'll i'll i'll include uh... billy back to you by your doctor
01:05:33
Speaker
uh... you know about the uh... uh... depression era uh... gangsters uh... and uh... and a young boy who's trying to join their ranks and as a protégé of one of the more influential gangsters and just a great you know uh... that story does for me i think what Gatsby does for you uh... talking to you know kind of captures that era
01:06:01
Speaker
and and uh... and just uh... just uh... beautiful story from from uh... beginning and so uh... i'll give you those six as my uh... as mine but you called bookshelf the apocalypse yeah this is happening at this a lot of everything that uh... if you could pack them up there uh... you gotta be ready at a moment's notice for these things well where can people find you on the internet's
01:06:32
Speaker
uh... i i'd sweet at joe underscore the polo g e p a o l l all uh... keep an eye out for uh... i've got i've got some stuff coming up on the other day uh... uh... i've i've been radio silent for a while but i'll be around here the next few weeks i've uh... i've uh... got some stuff coming out we've got the squishco story for the times coming up i'll be all over that fight uh... i will be i'll be working the uh... the they were the patio flight for the washington post
01:07:02
Speaker
which I'm very excited about. It is the fight of the century, as it were, and just a very unique event. I've been to a derby, I've been fortunate enough to cover a derby, 2012, but I think this will fairly easily top that in terms of the uniqueness of
01:07:28
Speaker
you know i think the gravity of this uh... that will be uh... greater than your average uh... kentucky derby i think it will be the big it is it is the biggest way that that covered today uh... and it'll be a credible privilege to be there uh... and and and i've got a story cut out charlotte magazine also a couple weeks uh... one of our one of our exp nation crew uh... michael graff uh... who do you it's a tremendous work for in the early part of
01:07:58
Speaker
uh... you know that's the nation's long-form program in its infancy the executive editor at charlotte magazine and so i've kind of beat the cup and pals with him a little bit and uh... i i reach out to him about doing a story about an actress uh... who is in the name jim lion who is in
01:08:16
Speaker
uh... uh... the new larry david play the hot play on broadway fish in the dark yeah and uh... and uh... she she was a really interesting subject of the story that kind of stuck up on me if i'm being honest and it was that it was something that i didn't necessarily expect too much of what i when i started it out and and uh... uh... it involved in the kind of uh... what's going on uh... uh... pretty proud of looking forward to it
01:08:46
Speaker
uh... folks reading uh... that that'll be uh... around i think the first couple weeks of may uh... that that'll be uh... on the interwebs uh... on uh... charlotte magazine's website now i'll be tweeting out the link uh... at my twitter account so uh... so lots of good stuff coming up uh... and uh... uh... very much hope uh... you get a chance to check out uh... and you're all of it i'd be uh...
01:09:09
Speaker
greatly appreciative uh... if you do and and you know you and you said brendan i mean like didn't reading a really big investment i mean if you did there's too much stuff out there uh... and not enough time in the day so i don't take it for granted ever anybody would really i wrote and uh... i am i am always greatly appreciative of anybody who who uh... who who picked up something in mind
01:09:35
Speaker
Well, I'll be one of the first in line for sure when all your new work comes out. I look forward to it greatly and continued success and best of luck, Joe. I'm sure we'll be in touch in the coming weeks and months. Absolutely, brother. I had fun. Thanks for letting me on and we'll have to do it again sometime. Absolutely. We'll definitely have a part too. Take care, Joe. All right, man. Take care. You too.
Closing Remarks
01:10:25
Speaker
Thanks once again for listening
01:10:32
Speaker
You get a chance to subscribe to this bad boy on iTunes. It would be a big help if you're a practitioner or a fan of creative non-fiction. That's about it. You can find me on Twitter, at Brendan O'Mara, and on Instagram, Brendan O'Mara. And that's about it. So thanks again for listening and stay tuned for next week.