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Episode 157: Eric Ducker—‘I Want This Weirder’
144 Plays6 years ago
"I want to hear more of you in this. I want this weirder. Let loose," says Eric Ducker (@ericducker).
Eric Ducker, freelance writer for The Ringer, among others, came on the show to talk about music, his time at Fader, and his Ringer piece on Jenny Odell (check out Ep. 151 for her).
Thanks to Goucher's MFA in Nonfiction and Bay Path's MFA in Creative Nonfiction for the support.
Keep the conversation going on Twitter @CNFPod and on Instagram @cnfpod.
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Transcript
Podcast Sponsorships and MFA Programs
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey CNF-ers! The CNF podcast, Creative Nonfiction Bogast, is sponsored by Goucher College's Master of Fine Arts in Nonfiction. The Goucher MFA is a two-year, low-residency program. Online classes let you learn from anywhere, while on-campus residencies allow you to hone your craft with accomplished mentors who have pulse surprises and best-selling books to their names.
00:00:21
Speaker
The program boasts a nationwide network of students, faculty, and alumni, which has published 140 books and counting. You'll get opportunities to meet literary agents and learn the ins and outs of the publishing journey. Visit Goucher.edu slash nonfiction to start your journey now. Take your writing to the next level and go from hopeful to published in Goucher's NFA program for nonfiction. One another, here's another.
00:00:49
Speaker
CNF is also brought to you by Bay Path University's MFA in Creative Nonfiction. Discover your story. Bay Path is the first and only university to offer a new residency. Fully accredited MFA focusing exclusively on Creative Nonfiction.
00:01:05
Speaker
attend full or part-time from anywhere in the world. In the Bay Path MFA, you'll find small online classes in a dynamic and supportive community. You'll master the techniques of good writing from acclaimed authors and editors, learn about publishing and teaching through professional internships, and complete a master's thesis that will form the foundation for your memoir or collection of personal essays. Special elective courses include contemporary women's stories, travel and food writing,
00:01:34
Speaker
family history, spiritual writing, and an optional week-long summer residency in Ireland. With guest writers including Andre Debeest III and Hood, Mia Gallagher, and others. Start dates in late August and January. Find out more at baypath.edu slash MFA.
Introduction to the Podcast and Host
00:01:55
Speaker
Dude, this podcast is so metal.
00:02:11
Speaker
That's right, CNFers. This is CNF, the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, where I speak to badass artists about the craft of telling true stories.
Interview with Eric Ducker
00:02:20
Speaker
Today's guest is Eric Ducker, a freelance writer and editor who wrote a great profile on Jenny O'Dell for The Ringer.
00:02:29
Speaker
And she happens to be the author of How to Do Nothing. You might remember her from episode 151 of this very podcast. The link to Eric's story is in the show notes. The two episodes can, in a way, piggyback off each other. I highly recommend them. First, make sure you're subscribing to the show wherever you get your podcasts. And if you are,
00:02:53
Speaker
consider leaving a kind review on Apple Podcast. My 39th birthday is right around the corner, and I'd love for us to hit 100. I think we're 34 away. So that's a great present if you ask me. You don't even have to put a bow on it.
00:03:10
Speaker
Be sure to follow the show on Twitter, at cnfpod, also on Instagram, at cnfpod, at Brendan O'Mara, of course. Facebook is Creative Nonfiction Podcast, or at cnfpodcast. However you choose to search for it there. Keep the conversation going there. You know what? Just do it. And I'll hop in. I will jump in and give you digital fist bumps.
00:03:36
Speaker
So, the other night, I was choosing which chef's table I wanted to watch. I settled on Jeong Kwon, a South Korean Buddhist monk who cooks the temple food at her temple.
00:03:51
Speaker
100% vegan. And not only that, like 100% plants appeals to my vegan taste for sure. But that's not the point. I was floored categorically floored by the entire episode, but especially this little quote. And it's more like a
00:04:11
Speaker
somewhat of a small monologue if you will and I want to read it to you I copied it word for word from the subtitles it was like that meaningful and that good so this is this is what it says this is this is her her her words by me reading
00:04:28
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Creativity and ego cannot go together. If you free yourself from the comparing and jealous mind, your creativity opens up endlessly. Just as water springs from a fountain, creativity springs from every moment.
00:04:45
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You must not be your own obstacle. You must not be owned by the environment you are in. You must own the environment, the phenomenal world around you. You must be able to freely move in and out of your mind. This is being free.
00:05:00
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There is no way you can't open up your creativity. There is no ego to speak of. That's my belief. So that's the great Jong Kwon South Korean Buddhist monk who cooks delicious food at her temple and travels sometime around the world to lecture on vegetarian cooking and
00:05:26
Speaker
Really enlighten people. It was pretty special. I mean, let that sink in. How great is that? You should tee that episode up on Netflix.
Eric's Music Background and Writing Influence
00:05:35
Speaker
It could change your life. It's also directed by David Gelb, who, as many of you know, is the director of my favorite documentary these days. I have Giro Dreams of Sushi, which I've seen like eight times.
00:05:47
Speaker
hustling hard to try to get Galb on this podcast because especially after seeing that last chef's table because the parallels between the two, you can tell that there's some themes that cross both movies and you can tell that that's where a lot of his taste lies and that would be great to talk to him about that. So anyway.
00:06:10
Speaker
this episode's Eric Ducker. And after that wonderful quote, I'm not gonna go tear into a riff after that. So let's just settle in for this conversation with Eric Ducker, episode 157. I hope you dig what we made for you.
00:06:26
Speaker
a fun place to start might be like, if anybody reads through your back catalog of dozens upon dozens upon dozens of stories, it seems like music is very an influential part of your life, given that you're you've written so extensively about it. So even as a as a younger person, maybe in middle school or high school, how important if it was at all, how important was music to you growing up? It was pretty huge. You know, I think
00:06:57
Speaker
You know, I had my father is is and was a huge music fan. And he was kind of one of those rare people who didn't kind of just stop listening to new music, you know, once he got out of college, you know, or yeah, I feel like, you know, even to today, a lot of people's kind of music tastes get stuck after, you know, wherever, like their early to late 20s, whatever they were listening to.
00:07:23
Speaker
I mean, he still had those influences from the sixties and seventies and those records that I would listen to with him, but then he would always be listening to new music and kind of want to know about more stuff and new stuff. So, you know, like when I was in middle school, he was buying like Liz fair albums and.
00:07:40
Speaker
you know, Uncle Tupelo, which were cool bands at the time for a 40 year old or a 50 year old to be buying. And then I also had an older brother who was really into music and he was, you know, this is the 90s. And, you know, he was kind of obsessed with hip hop. And, but yeah, I kind of took it all in. I was listening to all the stuff they liked, all the stuff that I kind of found on my own alternative rock, indie rock, dance music, kind of,
00:08:09
Speaker
of bringing it all in. So yeah, it's been a huge part of my life since probably I was even in elementary school. Wow. So who were your go-to starting string bands, so to speak, in the 90s? In the 90s? Well, Beastie Boys were kind of at the top of the list. OutKast,
00:08:30
Speaker
from Atlanta were pretty huge. I grew up in Oakland, California, but for some reason, me and my friends really took a liking to Outcast. This was kind of around the time that punk was kind of, you know, I guess I was kind of the alternative revolution kind of started, but when I was really in high school, it was like, you know, obviously being in the Bay Area, there was Green Day and Rancid were huge.
00:08:56
Speaker
You know, but I was also listening to older stuff. I listened to a lot of Jimi Hendrix and Led Zeppelin. Public Enemy was huge for me. I guess the band that really got me into music, I guess the two bands who got me or groups that got me into really into music kind of creating my identity when I was in the elementary school were Guns N' Roses and Public Enemy. So, yeah.
00:09:18
Speaker
Did you draw any artistic inspiration from those bands that would maybe later inform the writing you do? I guess I don't really think about it as consciously, but I mean, there's, I think, you know, probably in the Beastie Boys and some of those other groups I mentioned was just kind of a cultural curiosity and not kind of being ultimately concerned with boundaries of
00:09:46
Speaker
genre and style and, you know, kind of listening to music. I mean, it's a little hard to think about in this context or in kind of our present day where. But, you know, in the 90s. A lot of music listening was broken up among, you know, along racial lines. White kids listen to supposedly white music. Black kids listen to supposedly black music. And, you know, that's how music was marketed to them. That's how culture was marketed to them.
00:10:16
Speaker
And I guess from the start, I wasn't really interested in that. I wasn't, you know, I was interested in bands that are artists that didn't kind of always accept those kind of divisions and classifications. So yeah, you know, that includes BC boys, obviously, but also groups like Public Enemy who were into, you know, rock music and did, you know, were, that's what they were sampling. That's what they were, you know, they, they saw the power in that music too. So yeah, I think that was kind of
00:10:43
Speaker
I think that was a influence and just kind of being open minded and digging into stuff and kind of getting into stuff that kind of taking your own kind of particular peculiar take on things.
00:10:57
Speaker
And as you know, becoming a writer and a journalist, it's a special kind of virus that infects you. And so at what point did you become sort of infected by the writer bug? I don't know if it was ever a clear infection point.
00:11:21
Speaker
You know, I, my mother is a, well, when I was growing up, she was a professor at a graduate school. So, you know, even in writing essays and, you know, class assignments, she would help me as an editor and showed me kind of the importance of editing and the importance of, you know, of writing as a communication tool. And so, you know, I kind of
Eric's Career at The Fader
00:11:46
Speaker
I also, I mean, I remember in elementary school, I had a fifth grade teacher and every morning we started with creative writing. Like that's what we did for the first, I have to imagine it's 15, 20 minutes of class, we would just write to creative writing, which was, I think back about that's a pretty amazing talent or not talent, it's a
00:12:08
Speaker
This is an amazing gift to give kids just to express themselves that way, right, kind of the start. And, you know, we would we would go around the room and if we want to read, you could read your pieces and kids would, you know, you know, a bunch of 10 year olds kind of workshopping stories. Pretty cool. So, I mean, so it's just writing was just always something I did.
00:12:29
Speaker
I guess in high school, I don't think I was consciously resistant to it, but it wasn't something that was always obvious to me as something I wanted to do. I didn't join the high school newspaper until my junior year. I remember I came to college your freshman year. That first orientation week, they have all these different things to check out what you can get involved in and
00:12:58
Speaker
kind of get kids excited about being in college. And I remember I went to the newspaper kind of open house for incoming freshmen and I thought it seemed pretty miserable the way they were portraying it. I was like, well, I don't want to do this the way you got, you know, it's like a bunch of self serious seniors being like, you know, we got, we are like dedicated to this and we're doing, you know, something like
00:13:24
Speaker
will take, they'll basically, they were enrolled in school, but not taking any classes and just editing the newspaper. And I'm like, that's pretty ridiculous for, for just this. So, uh, you know, so I wasn't immediately gravitating towards writing in college. And then, uh, well then some friends, or I met a guy through a friend who was running a satire magazine. And, uh, you know, I kind of start contributing to that and got involved with that and
00:13:54
Speaker
I know that that was a big part of my college. This is a long, very long winded answer. Thank you. But I did that a lot in college and I, you know, I had a major that forced me to write a lot. And then I guess graduation rolled around and I was like, well, I guess I can write, you know, and I'm interested in things. I'm an intro. Yeah. So maybe I can do this. It was never, it was never like a very, like my, my wife is also a journalist and she's known,
00:14:21
Speaker
She just says, you know, she was, you know, she was nine when she knew she wanted to be a, you know, a journalist. So I think it was, there was never a huge revelation for me that this is what I wanted to do. It just became like, oh, this is something I do. And it's, I seem to be doing it pretty well for kind of the standards of where my level is. So I guess I can keep pursuing it. And, you know, it's somehow turned into a career. Yeah. So, so as you go, so where did you go to college, I should say first?
00:14:51
Speaker
Oh, I went to Wesleyan University in Connecticut. Okay. So from from there, you know, you kind of you had a knack, knack for writing and you figure, oh, well, this might as well make a go of this. So what was the next step at a college? Like, what do you what are you looking at? What are you looking for? And where do you finally land? Well, so my, my, my wife, who was my girlfriend in college was also a year older than me. So she had a job in journalism in New York.
00:15:22
Speaker
So she had already graduated and was living in New York and working for a newspaper. And I was graduating. I wanted to live with her. And so I said, well, there's journalism jobs in New York. Music journalism seems to make sense. Let me call up these places and find out if there's
00:15:40
Speaker
music internships. And I guess I was pretty naive about this stuff at the time. So I think I probably called them during my spring break, which is, you know, like March or April, you know, calling up Rolling Stone and Spin being like, do you guys have internship programs? And, you know, they're like, yeah, you know, they've been filled since December or whatever, you know, that kind of realize that these were these highly coveted positions or kind of opportunities.
00:16:07
Speaker
I was a DJ at my college radio station WESU and they would send, you know, labels would send promo music there and whatever. And then, but also I guess they had, someone had sent the second issue of the fader magazine to the, to the radio station. It was just kind of sitting in the common area and I looked at it and I was like, well, this seems interesting. I had never heard of it before. And, you know, I,
00:16:37
Speaker
emailed them some general thing be like, are you guys looking for interns? And I guess no one had asked them yet. And they would said, Yeah, actually, we would love an intern like send some stuff and you're just like, whatever. And I think I mailed them this satire magazine that I
00:16:56
Speaker
edited and I think I had there is a kind of a upstart music magazine at the school and I think I wrote some stuff for that and I sent it to them and sent them a terrible cover letter I'm sure I've continued to be terrible at cover letters and they've but they said yeah you know I guess no one at the time else wanted to be there their intern so I was the first intern at the fader in the summer of 2000
00:17:22
Speaker
Yeah. And I started working on, I guess by that time they were working on the fifth issue. So I started as an intern there and I worked there for that summer and kind of then my internship ended and I was like, well, I don't know what's going to happen now. And then they said, you know, I mean, at the time the fader was tiny. I mean, it was literally one person was doing was, it was their full time job. There were several people who worked on it, but
00:17:48
Speaker
There was only one person who was that was his job was to work on the fader and they were had a little bit more money and they were able to hire two more people and they have offered me a job to Start working on it. And so they said, you know, we can't offer you a lot of money but do you want to be the senior editor of the fader and I said that's a ridiculous title because I'm 22 and
00:18:10
Speaker
But OK, I guess I'll do that. And so, yeah, that's that's where I started. And I start I ended up working for the fader for almost a decade. Wow. So so you hook up the hook up there.
Editorial Approach and Writing Ambitions
00:18:23
Speaker
What what becomes your relationship to ambition in this line of work? And maybe who were you reading at the time that stoked your ambitious flame, so to speak?
00:18:34
Speaker
I guess I don't I mean ambition I mean I like where you maybe I know like you know like maybe you were reading a Chuck close to men or something you're like oh the way he's he's doing this like I'd like to get to that level or something you know what I mean like yeah I mean I I was you know I think coming in on the ground floor on a project like the fader when I did and kind of you know everything was up in the air it could be whatever we wanted it to be so I guess my ambition was to
00:19:04
Speaker
be part of this magazine and kind of see what we could do and what I could do with it. I was kind of always interested in being an editor. That was kind of what I enjoyed the most doing. I mean, by necessity, I had to write a lot because we didn't have much money.
00:19:27
Speaker
pay other people. The staff of the fader ended up writing the majority of the book. The editors wrote it for the most part. I think the guys who are kind of older than me who are involved in it, they were, I don't want to say dismissive, but they were kind of uninterested in tapping into
00:19:51
Speaker
the established music journalist, kind of the community. They, I think they were like, well, let's kind of do, let's do our own stuff. Let's kind of pick non-traditional writers. Let's kind of go about this as a non-traditional way. I mean, it's, it's hard to think about it now. Cause we, cause we, everything, um, you know, publication-wise it's so, you know, web, you know, forward now a kind of internet forward, but you know, the thing was we made a magazine that was our focus and,
00:20:20
Speaker
kind of at the time, you know, Fader was really known for being one of the kind of visually impressive magazines. The photography was great. The design was cool. So, you know, there was also kind of a feeling like people weren't like checking it necessarily for the articles at the time. So we felt like we had a little bit of a freedom to do whatever we wanted, which means kind of pushing the boundaries or
00:20:46
Speaker
I don't know that that sounds a little bit more self congratulatory than I intended to, but just kind of trying weird shit, I think is more kind of where our thoughts were. So, you know, Knox Robinson, he was the editor at large at the time. He's kind of largely stopped writing for publications. He's done some other very interesting stuff. You know, he was he was influenced in time in terms of, you know,
00:21:16
Speaker
saying like you know kind of redefining of what I thought a traditional or redefining what a music profile could be or should be and you know he was doing you know some experiments that were pretty far out like just writing a short story when it was supposed to be
00:21:35
Speaker
you know, a 400-word article about an R&B singer that didn't even really mention the R&B singer or, you know, I mean, he did more reported stuff and, you know, he would go out to Detroit and talk to the White Stripes and whatever. But, you know, just kind of looking, not kind of going about it the way everyone else was going about it. The book that we passed around a lot within the office was
00:22:01
Speaker
the new journalism, which is the compilation put together by Tom Wolfe that has a lot of people. I mean, I had it has also, you know, I think there's a Joan Didion piece in there. I think there's Terry Southern, you know, this kind of, you know, this was, I had read, I think, a little bit of Joan Didion in college and maybe, you know, I think there was some Charles Thompson stuff. But, you know, so it's just like, well, can we kind of bring, you know, this is obviously very high minded for
00:22:31
Speaker
a glossy magazine that most people are looking for, you know, pictures of rappers and rock bands. But it was like, oh, like, can't we try to do something a little far out or weird or different than everyone else is doing?
00:22:46
Speaker
And the fact that you wanted to be an editor over being a writer, that's a special kind of brain to want to be an editor, say, versus a writer. And what was it maybe about being an editor that appealed to you more on the outset? Well, writing's really hard.
00:23:07
Speaker
It's always will be, always has been. Editing isn't as hard. I mean, well, I guess, you know, there's obviously a million types of editing. There's, you know, getting into the nitty gritty of the story and kind of, or also the larger thinking about the story. And then there's actually finding stories and figuring out stories. And I don't know, I think editing. Yeah, I think what, and this is true in my writing and my editing. I think what I'm really interested in is kind of finding
00:23:36
Speaker
the threads and the patterns and everything and kind of figuring it all, how it all works and what it's saying about culture and what it's saying about our world and kind of what everything reveals and how things, you know, what's new, what's not new, what's interconnected, what's an entirely different thing. And I think, you know, editing just like allows you to see more of the world and kind of help you figure out the world a little bit easier. And, you know, it's, you can, it's more collaborative, you know,
00:24:05
Speaker
It can be, you know, helping people realize their thoughts and realize what they think is interesting. And, you know, also editing it, you know, there's plenty of, you know, I think kind of what's defined my work over the past two decades or so is just a curiosity in the great amount of things. You know, I don't, I'm not one of those writers who has an obsession or singular obsession or
00:24:31
Speaker
some subject that they want to keep exploring over and over again I'd rather have an article you know I'd rather learn a ton while writing an article and researching an article so I think you know as an editor you get to learn about all sorts of stuff you know you get to learn things about that you had no idea you want to learn about so yeah
00:24:51
Speaker
Yeah, because I think, too, with being an editor, a lot of it's like being a really good coach that wants to see their players succeed. And if all the players are succeeding, then the team is succeeding. And I think that takes a particular kind of mindset, too, of a much more unselfish mindset.
00:25:12
Speaker
Just speaking personally, I gravitate more towards the writing because my ego is tied to that more. I want to be sort of on the field. But I totally get, when I talk to editor-type people, they're like, nah, I'd rather, kind of like what you're saying, you have this real generous mindset of wanting to spread the love and realize someone else's vision. And in so doing, that's a big payoff for you as well, right? Yeah.
00:25:42
Speaker
Yeah, I'm not. I don't feel like I, yes. I'm trying to think about how to say this. Yeah, I think it's cool to help people and it's cool to, you know, it's cool to get ideas out in the world. I think if you had talked to people who I was editing, you know,
00:26:05
Speaker
10, 15 years ago, what I would constantly be telling is, I want to hear more of you in this. I want this weirder, let loose. So a lot of the people that we ended up, Fader, our listeners don't know. It started as a magazine, a music and culture magazine. And the focus was on emerging talent and sound.
00:26:32
Speaker
also want to reflect that in the writers we were working with. And, you know, kind of in the mid 2000s, a lot of the people were coming out of blogs and, you know, places where they were developing their own unique voices in their own styles. And that's why people were paying attention to them. And then some, you know, they'd get their first paid gig at a magazine and, you know, a lot of them would get
00:26:59
Speaker
their voices taken out or they would feel like they'd have to suppress their voices or they'd have to kind of tone down who they were or make their writing more cliche and I would constantly felt like when I when they were editing writing for the fader I would constantly be saying like like do you I don't we don't have to fit any you know house style or you know prescribed way of talking about things like talk about this how you talk about it on your own web you know your own blog that's why I asked you to do this you know I could
00:27:29
Speaker
There's a million straight up music journalists who can turn in the same thing. It's about feeling comfortable saying what you want to say. You obviously have a take on this and that's why I ask you to write this. And with respect to your writing and stuff, when you're inspired by something, you're like, oh, that's something I want to write about.
Research and Writing Techniques
00:27:56
Speaker
And then you get going and of course, as you referenced earlier, writing is hard. That honeymoon period often comes to an end and then you find yourself in the middle of this nasty shitstorm of a draft that you've started. So when you get to that ugly middle or messy middle, however you want to call it, how are you processing that part of the writing phase to power through so you can at least get a lump of something done?
00:28:25
Speaker
At this stage in my career, if I'm writing about something, I'm going to try to do as much research as possible into it. That's independent research, that's reading what's already been written about it and what's surrounding it, what I'm writing about reminds me of that I want to read about, and then talking, and talking, and talking to some more people, and finding secondaries, and tracking down people who might have a perspective that no one else has talked to about this.
00:28:53
Speaker
going into the writing process, I feel, you know, I'm most comfortable when I have a lot to draw on, you know, that I've, you know, either through my own original reporting or kind of found other things. So when it's messy, you know, I think it's the best I can do is maybe think about, well, you know, how, how do I be like, what do I know? Like, you know, what do I, what can I,
00:29:21
Speaker
You kind of go back to the source material, I guess, is, you know, I think at this stage, that's kind of what I'm interested in doing. I had, I took a writing class in college with a, with a writer named Annie Dillard. Yeah. I mean, I actually have not, there were some people in that class who were very big Annie Dillard followers and very
00:29:43
Speaker
I don't want to say acolytes, but very kind of attuned to her. And I wasn't, but she, you know, she had this writing class and basically the way it would work is once a week. And she would basically, she would spend three hours and the first 90 minutes, she would just talk, basically, and just kind of tell you things. And it was kind of weird.
00:30:05
Speaker
It wasn't like a lecture. She was just like, here's this thing in my head that you should know if you want to be a writer. Here's this other thing that's in my head that you should know if you want to be a writer and just keep going and going and going. And then the second half, we talk about our stories that we had written for that week. And it was a class about memoir. And the one thing that that stuck with me throughout all these years is
00:30:27
Speaker
She once said, you know, you should learn something every, your reader should learn something from every sentence that you write. Now, I don't think I achieve that, but it's just, you know, if I feel like I can impart knowledge or something that I learned over, you know, to my readers, I guess that's kind of what I keep going back to is just like, okay, like, what am I trying to convey? You know, what's the point of all this?
00:30:54
Speaker
And, you know, if I have time and the inclination, I can hopefully put some of my spin and voice and perspective on that. That makes it a lot more exciting. So it's not just a dump of everything that's in my Google Doc about the subject. But, you know, that's kind of how I go about it.
00:31:15
Speaker
I don't know, did I answer your question? Yeah, for sure. Being able to fall back on your research is a way to, it's an energizing, animating force to the writing process, both in terms of the material you need to push through, but also, and this is just me, my own, say, anxiety with either a story or even with, I find if I get nervous or anxious about a podcast or
00:31:44
Speaker
Someone I have to talk to for a story I might be writing oftentimes. It's like oh Brendan you haven't Do more research like yeah, just do a little more legwork and the more legwork I do I'm like oh, this is all right. I feel better now. I feel more equipped to
00:31:59
Speaker
help carry a conversation or nudge it in the right ways or I have such a backlog of information that no matter what Eric says or Debbie Millman or Laura Hillenbrand whatever they say in a sense their answers are guiding the conversation because I can ping-pong something they've said in the past and it's just like yeah it's like just do a little more work but I'm feeling that anxiety build up it's like you haven't done enough work yet so do more work. Yeah and you know it's like you know I'll do all my research and I'll
00:32:28
Speaker
print it out and I'll go through it and I'll highlight it. And I'll think, you know, I know where the store is going and what needs to be in there. And if I'm stuck, I can go back in there and see things that I'm like, Oh wait, no, this part's actually interesting. I've kind of forgot about this or this kind of as a connection between this part and this part that I can use or, Oh yeah, I remember there was that book that you kind of looked at, but didn't really, you know, what was that in that chapter and kind of go back to that and try to find it or, you know,
00:32:57
Speaker
find something that they say and look back into who that person is that they mentioned. There's always more information to kind of help guide you there.
Profile on Jenny Odell and Digital Disconnection
00:33:07
Speaker
Yeah, I think that in the piece you did for The Ringer on Jenny Odell and her book, How to Do Nothing, does that particularly well because not only are you sort of reviewing, like sort of tangentially reviewing her book and also tangentially profiling her, but you're also pulling in like Cal Newport, who is this sort of a digital refugee, you know, he's just not
00:33:32
Speaker
Yeah, really on the grid in that kind of way. And yet he's a prolific writer and a bestselling author. So you're able to kind of pull that in. So with respect to that, like, how are you like, how are you able to even like corral him for the story? He's kind of hard to reach. Um, I think I just, I want to say I emailed his book publicist. He just was like, okay, yeah, like,
00:34:00
Speaker
He'll do it, you know. And so. So, yeah. And had you read his had you read his his latest book? I haven't read his latest one yet. I hadn't I had I had heard. Well, I guess I had I had heard about it. So I hadn't I was like, I'm writing this. I pitched that story as, you know, I want to do a story on Jenny Odell. I think, you know, she you know, I had read.
00:34:24
Speaker
her piece for the New York Times, and I kind of looked into her. I saw she had this book coming. I got a copy of her book. I thought the book was interesting. I had watched some stuff that she had online of her talking. So I pitched that just as kind of a profile on her. My editor at The Ringer said, I want to do something more than just about her. I don't feel like we could just do a profile of her. I want to
00:34:51
Speaker
you know, I think in my pitch, I had mentioned, you know, she's part of this larger movement about disconnecting and, you know, but that she takes a kind of a different approach to it. And so my editor was like, I want you to kind of talk about talk about and talk to some other people. I mean, I think I would have, I think, most likely, if I if I had just been a profile on Jenny Odell, I think I probably would have ended up reading help Newport's book anyway, but
00:35:18
Speaker
I wanted to kind of get in, you know, more interviews of other people. So I, you know, along with reading his book, I was able to talk to him as well. Yeah. So it was just like, yeah. So it became something bigger and bringing in more voices and kind of having, you know, talking to him, talking to Catherine Price, who wrote this book called, you know, How to Break Up with Your Phone. So these were other kind of
00:35:41
Speaker
experts or kind of people who have become experts in, or at least perspectives in this movement to disconnect from technology. But then, you know, I also talked to, you know, a doctor who's done research in terms of, you know, what the internet does to our brains. And, you know, I talked to some other people, some who made it into the piece and some who did not, but, uh, yeah, just, it couldn't, you know, it was, I think if it was just about Jenny Odell, I probably would have talked to more people about
00:36:10
Speaker
her specifically, you know, talk to other artists, other, you know, maybe contemporaries, you know, and, but this was kind of by broadening out the subject, I was able to kind of talk. That's where I kind of got my other sources from.
00:36:25
Speaker
And did you come to this story because at the moment, maybe are you experiencing a conflicted relationship with social media and phone addiction, so to speak? Yeah, of course. I mean, I think most people are. I mean, I think that's pretty common. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a pretty natural problem to people for people to have. I think it's, you know, it's it's an anxiety. I think we're all dealing with, you know,
00:36:55
Speaker
As I kind of alluded a little bit to the piece that I think in the beginning, it was a lot of the concern was about what's this doing to our children? What's this doing to our teens? And I think people are starting to really say like, Oh wait, what is this doing to me? You know, I am not a prolific social media poster or, you know, I don't, I don't tweet a lot. I never have tweeted a lot or put a lot of the Facebook or, you know,
00:37:21
Speaker
That's never been my mode for expression, but I think as a curious person, for a long time, that was an insight into people's lives and their thoughts and what they were interested in. Yeah, it's compelling. It became clear after a while that it was limiting productivity and I didn't feel good on it. I remember when I signed up for Twitter, I liked it because I could see what my friends were doing and I could read their jokes.
00:37:51
Speaker
It was like a fun time and that long ago stopped being a fun time going on Twitter. And I was like, why, why am I doing this? And, you know, why do I, I have, I have two children and why, why sometimes look at my phone when I should be paying more attention to them or, you know, I mean, it's the same shit everyone's dealing with, you know, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's weird, you know, you go to the, it's at one sense, it's weird, you know, you go to the park with your kids and, you know,
00:38:18
Speaker
You let the kids go play because, you know, it's good for them to have independent play. And you look around and all the other parents are looking at their phones and I'm like, oh, that's gross. But I'm like, well, you know, I'm not necessarily want to talk to these people. I guess, I mean, is it worse if I'm reading a magazine instead of looking at my phone? I mean, I don't know, but it did feel weird to me. It's felt increasingly bad the amount of time I was looking at my phone, I guess. And so, yeah, I was like, of course, it's a concern, you know, as a parent, it's
00:38:46
Speaker
something I talked about with other parents, but, uh, yeah, it's so, you know, I've been experimenting, you know, I've never done like a fully regimented detox situation, but you know, I've over the years, I've tried to figure out different tips and tools to limit my time on phones and social media.
00:39:07
Speaker
Yeah, what practices do you have in place to curtail your, I'll use just addiction for lack of a better term. Sure. I think we all have this addiction. Yeah, for sure. So what do you do to curtail that? Right now what I have, so on my laptop, which I spend most of my time in front of during the workday or as I work,
00:39:36
Speaker
I, well, I guess I'm, I've deleted Facebook, which is, you know, which is a pretty basic thing for most people to do. Um, for Twitter, I, I've now given my wife, my, she knows, she's the only person who knows the password to my Twitter account. So like, if I ever want to tweet something or even look at stuff, really like, uh, you know, I have to ask her to sign me in and we don't get the same place. So, or.
00:40:04
Speaker
She so yeah, so it's so I mean, I'm kind of trying to be off Twitter as much as possible. And I guess even when I'm on, I have like one of those. Forget what's the Google, I have some, you know, Google Chrome extension. So I'm only allowed to be on Twitter and Instagram through my, you know, laptop for 10 minutes a day. On my phone, I don't have, you know, I don't have the apps for Twitter or
00:40:34
Speaker
Twitter or Instagram. And I keep it in black and white, which I guess is the new thing that people do. So it's not as exciting, you know, visually appealing. So yeah, that's that's what I'm trying to do. It's a constant work and a constant struggle and a constant losing situation. But yeah, I'm trying to limit it as much as possible.
00:40:55
Speaker
And as – the real conflict with it also is as writers or artists, it's part and parcel to be part of a community. And the more we maybe step back from the ledge of at least the digital community, it's like –
00:41:14
Speaker
It's at one point you need or want to maybe participate in it to share other people's work, to share your own work, but at the same time you get sucked into the vortex that has been algorithmically designed to steal your attention. Is that something you're conflicted about, just being in the creative ecosystem? Yeah, I mean it is.
00:41:39
Speaker
when I have my wife sign in for me, I mean, what it is, it's not for me to put a joke up, it's for me to post an article. I mean, yeah, I feel a little bit bad that my only social online presence is like self promotion, but also like, that's kind of like the situation I've been forced into, you know what I mean? It's not like, you know, it's like, well, they're not, they're not doing that much good for me. Like, I don't really feel like I owe it to them to give them
00:42:07
Speaker
my thoughts or my expressions of myself. So I don't know if anyone actually ever sees what I put on social, even when I promote it. But I think I'm a little bit older than a lot of the writers who have found so many opportunities and community through social media. And I think it's just a very microgenerational difference.
00:42:36
Speaker
I've gotten very little work. I guess this is the way I've gotten very little work through social media over the course of the past 10 years. So if I lose that one or two articles a year because of that, I guess it is what it is. I'll just have to write better pitches, you know, to make up for that. You know, so am I missing out on the conversation? I mean, you know, if I do, it is, you know, it's like, yeah, I think about
00:43:06
Speaker
When I talked to Cal Newport for the article, he said something that he was like, we kind of bought into this myth that it's become essential for careers to have this online presence. There's no real proof of that. Who's promoting that idea that you have to have an online presence if you want to
00:43:36
Speaker
It's most likely the online content companies, or the social media companies. They're the ones who are saying you have to have social presence. They've told you that this is essential, and you're like, oh, well, I guess this is essential.
Freelance Writing and Pitching
00:43:56
Speaker
Maybe it's not essential, or it's not essential for a long-term career.
00:44:04
Speaker
Development of abilities, you know, hmm So how did you end up hooking up with grant land when? When they were up and running and then of course parlaying that into the ringer which is kind of like grant land 2.0 Yeah, you know I've been lucky to freelance for both of those outlets. Well for the ringer. Sorry for grant land it started in
00:44:28
Speaker
So Chris Ryan, who's an editor there, worked at the fader for a while. So I knew him. And so I was able to kind of pitch him stories. I mainly pitched him, I think, you know, when I when I would write for him, it would be sports stuff. And then at the time.
00:44:45
Speaker
there. So he was running their kind of sports blog stuff, which I think was called The Triangle. And then Mark LaSanti was editing Hollywood Prospectus, which was more their pop culture blog stuff. And I knew him socially just around Los Angeles. You know, just one of the, you know, he had done the Famer and been around for a while and kind of worked at some places. So I just, they're both just guys I knew.
00:45:15
Speaker
kind of professionally and socially, that I could start writing for them. And, you know, then we became the ringer. Chris, you know, was one of the first hires, Bill Simmons' first hires, that, you know, his core people that he brought over. So I knew him, so I could pitch him stories. I knew Sean Fennessy over the years, who's now the, or with their first editor-in-chief and remains their editor-in-chief. So, you know, just people I have professional relationships and, you know,
00:45:45
Speaker
somewhat social relationships over the years. And what was, what are, how have you gotten, you know, skilled at the, the, well the, I will say the science of, of pitching a story. Maybe before you were, you knew them as well. I'm sure like your pitches now to them are kind of like, hey, I have a couple sentences, like this sounds good. Like, do you like this? I'd like to do this. And they'd be like, yeah, it sounds good. Or maybe not so much.
00:46:15
Speaker
But pitching is a huge, huge part of this game. And if you're going in cold, what's the nature and shape and process by which you write your pitches? Yeah, I don't know that I've perfected it at all. I feel like I am constantly falling flat on my pitches.
00:46:38
Speaker
You know, I think I guess I can tell you what I don't think works that I still do is that I probably overwrite my pitches. You know, my pitches are probably some often too long. And I think what right what, you know, you want to, you know, you want to, as you're saying, like, you know, now I have relationships with certain editors where I can send them a few sentence being like, hey, I'm thinking about this because of this. And it's pretty cool because of this. And they're like, yeah, that is cool. Or like, I don't know.
00:47:07
Speaker
But I think I, you know, my guess, uh, I would recommend getting closer to that for all pitches. I think then, you know, three paragraphs, which I sometimes still do, you know, to if, if I'm going in cold with people, you know, I think you want to show that you are, you've, I think with your pitch, you want to show that you are.
00:47:33
Speaker
a considerate thinker and you've thought about the subject and you kind of know what you're doing and you have an outlook and there's people that you want to talk to. Like you've done some of the work already, so you know what's interesting about it, but then you're also making it open-ended enough to the editor that you're pissing like, I want to learn more.
00:47:55
Speaker
You know what I mean? That it's like, there's all this other stuff that can be explored or that might reveal itself in the course of the reporting. You know what I mean? I think editors don't want to feel like you've got, you know, I think, you know, I remember as an editor when someone would pitch me in the big, Hey, I talked to this person after the show and I got a really great interview.
00:48:20
Speaker
And I have a 600-word story ready to go. I'd be like, no, thanks. This is a collaboration. If you have this thing all ready to go, I'm not so interested. I think a lot of editors feel that way as like, OK, you've sparked my curiosity. What can we come up together?
00:48:46
Speaker
that, you know, to make this a cool story that I'll be excited about too. You know, so I think that's my recommendation is to, you know, just have it's, you know, in your pitches to have an exciting idea, show that you have a perspective about it, or something that you can bring to it, and that there's room for you and your editor to kind of go on this journey together, hopefully, and kind of make something fun and interesting.
00:49:13
Speaker
So over the course of a typical work week for you, how much of that is divided up into writing columns and stories, and how much of that is idea generation and pitches? Well, I guess I should say there is no typical work week. I mean, it all depends on where I'm at with my life and things. Are you kind of like 100% freelancer?
00:49:40
Speaker
Yeah, I'm 100% freelance. I mean, this is how I make my money. So I should say, if I'm deep in a story, I'll just be working on the story all week. Or that could be a week of interviewing people and researching stuff and transcribing. And then I could be spending days. But right now, I'm kind of in between stories.
00:50:08
Speaker
Generating ideas writing pitches, you know, that's what i've been doing this week So do you have any kind of daily ritual that you do? Anchor your day on like even if the work is a bit scattered or you're in different parts of a project or are there certain things that you?
Daily Writing Routine and Work-Life Balance
00:50:25
Speaker
Hinge your day on like these things have to happen every morning just so I stay sane No, I haven't done anything like that, you know, it's like I mean I I
00:50:38
Speaker
Nothing work-wise. That's not what the anchor of my day is. It's what anchors my day is getting my kids breakfast ready and prepping their lunches, I guess, and figuring out when I have to pick them up and everything like that. Do you have a way that in the mornings or anytime that you kind of check in with yourself, whether that's journaling or meditating, that kind of thing to clear your head space?
00:51:07
Speaker
I think probably the closest to that is, you know, walking my dog. I walk my dog for about, you know, 45 minutes up in for a while. Yeah. That kind of kind of clears my head a little bit or kind of, you know, I, I going again with this phone thing I've been trying to figure out like, Oh, like maybe, you know, I go, you know, cause I go and I'm listening to music or I'm listening to podcasts as I walk my dog. And, you know, that kind of. Spire some creativity or thought in my head, hopefully, but you know, I'm,
00:51:35
Speaker
thinking would it be, you know, be better to be fullness and just taking in the world around me as I do it and not have that, you know, when one podcast ends and I'm looking for the next one, not to take those extra, you know, 30 seconds to two minutes checking my emails or whatever. So yeah, I think it's.
00:51:54
Speaker
I'm debating that, but yes, hopefully I'll be walking my dog without headphones in, without a phone. Or I'll go back to it, somehow find an old iPod that I can use and just listen to music.
00:52:09
Speaker
In the last maybe five years or so, I think you're kind of in a good sweet spot in your career where you can probably identify this. Maybe in the last five to ten years, what would you say you're a lot better at today than you were just five or more years ago? I'm a lot better at.
00:52:32
Speaker
Yeah, maybe ways you found to streamline things or just, you know, just skill wise. You know, I've, I've got, I'm getting better. I used to be a stay up late, write, you know, to write kind of guy, you know, and I think that developed out of necessity. Um, because, you know, as I said, when I started my career, I was an editor and that's what I did all day was, you know, during my work day, I wouldn't have time to write. I would be.
00:53:00
Speaker
setting up stories and being in meetings and emailing people and you know doing all sorts of stuff like that and kind of listening to music kind of getting things going to screenings or checking things out and then you know there wasn't time to write so I'd write at night because that's when the email stopped and so I kind of got into that habit and I don't know if that is the most productive way to work so I think over the last
00:53:27
Speaker
five or so years, I've gotten better about like, actually writing during the day, which is a huge step for me, I think it's, but yeah, and also kind of tuning out some of those distractions and kind of, you know, focusing like, oh, like, you work during the workday, and those emails can wait. And, you know, you don't have to do all that stuff that, you know, you feel you might feel like you're you have to do.
00:53:52
Speaker
And just like, you know, this, you know, the way you're the way you're making money is you don't get paid unless you turn in the article. So you got to you got to spend the time actually writing the article and getting it in. So what was that transition like between being with Fader for so long and then transitioning to freelancing? Um, you know, well, I should say there was kind of a
00:54:20
Speaker
there after I left Vader, there was a period of, you know, just freelancing. And that, you know, it's, it was tough. And it's, you know, you kind of figure out like, you try to think about your friends who have started working at other places or guys that you met one time or women that you once emailed with who are like, Oh, yeah, they have a job. And they could probably I could probably send them, you know, ideas or so. And so you kind of go that way. And this is tough for a while. But then before I kind of went back into
00:54:51
Speaker
freelancing mainly, I did have a job, I guess they're called a creative agency. So doing more like lifestyle marketing work. So I did that for a few years. But yeah, I kind of missed the creative outlet on it. And, you know, that I mean, there was creative elements to what I was doing and involved with some creative thinking. But in the long run, it's in the service of
00:55:16
Speaker
building some multi million dollar company's brand. So it's not always the most rewarding. And, you know, you don't feel good about putting that up on your Twitter all the time. Like I made this magazine for a car company. So, uh, you know, I got back into freelancing. It was tough. And, but, you know, at this was, I had, I had contacts who were working at cool places, like, you know, grant land at the time. And so, yeah, it was, it's okay. It was okay to kind of, you could, I could find
00:55:45
Speaker
I had people who were receptive to my ideas, and yeah, it worked out all right. It's always a struggle. It's still a struggle. Finding editors are incredibly busy, and they don't always have time to write back to story ideas, but you can't just sit around waiting for them to write you back. You've got to come up with more ideas.
00:56:04
Speaker
Right. And in that period of time where, let's say, you're working at a place that wasn't necessarily as creatively fulfilling as you would have hoped, and it probably took a little bit of your soul to show up there all the time. Well, I have to say that. I was doing good work, and I was working with really smart people at this place. But yes, it was more about, I think it was just the kind of the
00:56:35
Speaker
the amount of work that was also a lot frustrating, you know, or just kind of feeling like I was in meetings all the time and not doing enough work. And I was often delegating, you know, I should say I was often felt like I was delegating the work that I felt like I would have been more rewarding if I was doing more self. You know what I mean? Like it was, you know, we were doing cool stuff. It was just like, I didn't get to do it. I just had to kind of figure out who would do the work, you know, which is not as exciting.
00:57:06
Speaker
And have you, over the course of your career, ever been stricken by those feelings of competition or jealousy among peers when you're looking over your shoulder at people you admire, even people who are just kind of in your same station, but you feel like they're on some sort of meteoric path and you're kind of down here? Did you ever have moments like that? And if you did, how did you process it?
00:57:36
Speaker
Yeah, of course, I think those are totally normal feelings to have. I think everyone has them. If not, they must have had incredible, I don't know, maybe incredible times of therapy as young, young children to not have that. Yeah, I mean, you know, you do it. I mean, but also, you know, I've also realized, I guess the way I cope is just like, no one knows
00:58:03
Speaker
everyone's full story you know like people who are I mean I've often found you know people seem like they have it all together or you know barely holding it together you know what I mean it's like yeah when you see someone who's writing you know story after story that you can't believe and you're like oh my god how are they so productive how are they so you know doing all this and like they're probably freaking out all the time you know they're making sacrifices
00:58:33
Speaker
that you have to ask yourself, are you willing to make? And there's some sacrifices that, you know, I found like, I'm not willing to make, you know, there's things that I'm not willing to forfeit. And, you know, there are people who have decided not to have families because of their jobs, you know what I mean? They've decided not to have friends, they've decided not to see families to miss things, you know, and it's just like,
00:58:57
Speaker
We're all under different economic realities. You don't know what everyone else is dealing with. All you know is your own reality. That's what you need to judge yourself against, I would say, is what works for you and what does not work for you. I guess that's my method of coping.
00:59:22
Speaker
Right, which is just further amplified by the toxic nature of social media when it feels like those blow-dried outsides are just like, wow, this person's fucking killing it. And then I'm like, god damn it, I can't pay my electric bill or something.
Curiosity and Persistence in Writing
00:59:44
Speaker
In terms of your work, what is still exciting you in bringing you back to the page? What are the things that are just really stoking your creative flames and keep you drawing up pitches and writing great pieces for the ringer and elsewhere? I mean, life is continuously interesting.
01:00:11
Speaker
I don't think that I'm the most interesting person in the world. There's a lot of writers who are great essayists and bring their selves into everything they do or that some are good, some are not good, but that's never been my approach. It's been like, look at me. I can't wait for you guys to think about what I've got to say about this.
01:00:41
Speaker
I am happy to learn about so much in this world, like that I do not know about and there's life is constantly, you know, okay, there's constantly new things happening and things developing and remutating. And like that, I'm just curious about that. I want to know about that. Why is it like that? How did that become like that? You know, it's like,
01:01:04
Speaker
I would when I got into music journalism, I would meet people who would be like, oh, yeah, I heard that band. Yeah, whatever. They sound like this other band or they sound. Oh, yeah, I listened to that. Yeah, I remember that band when it was this band 10 years ago. And I'm like, why the fuck are you doing this if you're just so jaded about this and like nothing's ever exciting to you? Like there's if it's not exciting to you, like
01:01:28
Speaker
Why do it? So it's just, yeah, it's like finding stuff that makes you excited or be like, Oh, I had never thought that they could do this with this or like, I'd never thought that this thing was going to become a thing again. You know, like it's, I don't know. Like I want to learn about what music for plants sounds like. And, you know, I want to see.
01:01:49
Speaker
Documentary about that, you know, it's like there's all sorts of crazy shit out there that you should learn about, you know, like Yeah, like this getting your sees get Like your piece on Odell and the attention economy like that seems like the your curiosity Really comes through in that that you're trying to really take a deep dive on what it means to harness or take back our attention in an era where so many entities out there are looking to pirate that
01:02:19
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's, there's all sorts of stuff out there that I've just been like, Oh, I'd never thought about that. You know, like, you know, I, uh, I wrote a piece for Vulture and it was about like, um, that I wrote about, uh, you know, like how, how a band, like, if you get a song on brick and Morty, like, how does that affect your life? You know, and it's because like, you know, when I was in college, I was really into blonde redhead.
01:02:49
Speaker
they were kind of always like a band that it was around and you know, they kind of maintained and they would tour every couple years and put out an album every couple years and then Some the creative one of the creators Rick and Morty was like, oh I like this song for a Pivotal moment in this TV show which for a TV show that has obsessive fans and it's just like that changes their
01:03:13
Speaker
The band was like, yeah, sure, you can use our song. And it changes the trajectory of their lives or their careers. From now on, their most famous song will be a song that was kind of a throwaway song. You know what I mean? It's like, that's really interesting. What does that mean? You have a 20-year body of work, and then some guy makes some decision to use your song at this one moment. And it's like, oh, no, this is the song that's going to define us, some song that we
01:03:41
Speaker
recorded at the very end of our album. It's like, that's crazy. What does that mean for you as a creative person?
01:03:50
Speaker
I think that's really cool and I think there's a great lesson there that you just have to, whatever your creative endeavor is, whether it's freelance journalism or music or painting or whatever, you just have to keep showing up and showing up and do a lot of bad work and eventually it's going to get good and then maybe something will be great, who knows.
01:04:13
Speaker
But just like the showrunner for Rick and Morty has a song from this band that's had a 20 year body of work and suddenly it's like, who are these guys? They're an overnight success, but the fact is they've been showing up for two decades. Yeah, I always think there's this, Neil Brennan was famously, he was kind of Dave Chappelle's creative partner, they did half
01:04:40
Speaker
baked together. They did the Chappelle show together. And, you know, after Chappelle show ended, he had this podcast for a while called The Champs. I just remember he had this line. He was like, he was interviewing someone and he was talking about like kind of life after the Chappelle show and like kind of, you know, like a little bit of the shine of him had kind of fallen off because he wasn't working with Dave Chappelle anymore because Dave Chappelle wasn't doing anything. And he was like,
01:05:04
Speaker
motherfuckers, I might get hot again. Like don't, you know, like don't treat me like I'm a nobody. Cause you never know who's going to get hot again. You never know like what's going to, someone's going to want to be interested in you. I mean, I, you know, I'll see on Twitter or whatever, but some 28 year old writer saying like, I'm so old. And I'm like, if you're into this and you want to do this, like,
01:05:30
Speaker
It's a long run. If any of us ever get to retire, you're still a long way away from that. And not every good journalist eventually gets a job as a TV writer for a show on Hulu. You know what I mean? If you want to do this, you got to just keep doing it. And you got to keep going. And even if you do get that show on Hulu,
01:05:58
Speaker
That show is going to get canceled and the job on Hulu doesn't pay nearly as much as you think it does. You know, so. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a long road. I guess that's the point. And like what you've got is your ideas and your work ethic and your ability to turn in good copy and, you know, have a perspective, I guess is, is, I guess that's what I would say.
Eric's Work and Online Presence
01:06:20
Speaker
Yeah, and let me ask you one more thing. Well, two more things. One's more of a where to find you question and the other, but sort of the last real meaty question, if anything, is at the end of your piece on Jenny O'Dell, you guys, well, you elected to just sit on a bench in silence for 15 minutes with her.
01:06:41
Speaker
That kind of take us to that scene and what what was that like what inspired that and just kind of what was that? Experience like you know sitting there doing nothing Well, I will admit that I had the idea before we so the in the article Jenny I meet up with Jenny Odell in the hills of Oakland, California Which is where I'm from so it was really near my house and
01:07:10
Speaker
the house I grew up in, I should say. And so yeah, we went on a hike for like an hour and we kind of talked and hiked at the same time, which I had never done before anyway, which was, I don't know if that's kind of a trope in celebrity profiles in Los Angeles, where you go on a hike in Griffith Park with someone, but I had never done that before. And it's tough to hike and interview someone at the same time, but it was a challenge I was willing to do. And
01:07:38
Speaker
So when all right, you know, we went for a while and kind of looked at different stuff. There's, as I said, there's in the article, there's these kind of labyrinths in on this hike that we checked out. Yeah. So we, you know, we had talked for a while and then I, then there was a bench. And so we sat it down at this bench and, you know, we kind of talked for probably about 20 more minutes. And then as I said, I, you know, I had asked her all.
01:08:02
Speaker
things I want to ask her. And then I said, well, you know, I, I thought of this idea before we went out. It's like, I've never, you know, the title of her book is how to do nothing. And it's about, you know, kind of appreciating what's around you and kind of taking it all in. So I said, you know, like, do you want to just sit here and do nothing? And she was like, yeah, you know, I think that's who type of version she is. You didn't seem to think it was weird or awkward. And, you know, I thought it would be interesting kind of circumvent this usual idea of,
01:08:33
Speaker
interviews where you're just kind of pumping people you've just met for all sorts of informations and realities about their lives and thoughts and, you know, inner feelings. So, um, yeah, we sat there for a while and it was, it was cool. It was, it was great. It was great to just sit there and, um, you know, I, I, I, you know, we didn't put like a timer on it. We were just like, I was just like, I'm going to sit around and do this until
01:09:02
Speaker
feels like it's time to stop and there's like at one point I think like a bird flew pretty close to us and I looked at her and like I laughed and she laughed and then I was like okay you know I think we've done enough nothing you know I mean she could have probably sat there for two hours but uh you know I don't know if I was quite up to that quite yet yeah it was a great experience to just sit there with someone and not have anything to you know not force them to do anything and not force them to
01:09:33
Speaker
Yeah. And then actually, you know, as we walked back at the end of the hike, you know, we had more good conversation. And I think it was kind of a good experience to share. Cool. Very nice. Well, yeah. Well, Eric, where can people, you know, I know you're trying to pull back a little bit, but where can people find you online and familiar with your work?
01:09:56
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, if you, I still have a Twitter account and it's just my name, Eric Ducker, E-R-I-C-D-U-C-K-E-R. I post most of my stories up there. Maybe someday I'll get back to putting jokes or weird thoughts on there. And if you want to read any of my articles, I just set up a Contently site. So it's just my name again, ericducker.contently.com.
01:10:22
Speaker
Is it content? Is it contently? My instinct is contently. Yeah, all right. Well, it's probably contently, but I like the idea of contently.com. I love it. Well, Eric, thanks so much for carving out some time.
01:10:41
Speaker
Some great tips in there, right? That was awesome. I mean, they always are. I mean, am I going to say in this outro after that, be like, eh, that really wasn't that great. Eric sucked. That was, I'm sorry you had to listen to it. No, of course. It was awesome. And he's a great guy, a great writer, honored to have him on the CNF and team. We've got a great bench. Go check out the backlog. It's a bit overwhelming. There's a lot of great episodes. So, um,
01:11:09
Speaker
See someone you like. Just start. Just do it. Do it, man. Thanks to Goucher's MFA and Nonfiction and Bay Path's MFA and Creative Nonfiction for supporting the show. And thanks to you, loyal listener, I make this for you and I hope it helps you in your CNFing journey.
01:11:30
Speaker
Remember, to consider leaving a review for the show on Apple Podcasts, I will personally coach up a piece of your writing of up to 2,000 words. If you do, leave a review, wait till it published, take a screenshot of it, send me the screenshot, and I'll reach out. And it better be a new one, because I know all the ones that are published, so don't get sneaky. I'm sorry. That's very cynical and mean of me to even say that. But trust me, I will know.
01:12:00
Speaker
I think that's it. Remember, if you can do interview, see ya!