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Episode 331: Seyward Darby
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Seyward Darby is the editor-in-chief for The Atavist Magazine and the author of Sisters in Hate.
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Transcript
Introduction & Brand Ambassador Announcement
00:00:00
Speaker
AC and efforts, it's that atavistian time of the month, so, you know, spoiler alerts. You've been warned. Also, hey, many of you know I like to crack open a beer on this pod.
00:00:14
Speaker
Sometimes it contains alcohol, other times it's a near beer. And I've been selected as a brand ambassador for athletic brewing, a brewery that makes the best non-alcoholic beer around. Shout out to Free Wave, their hazy IPA. I love it. And if you use the promo code BRENDANO20,
00:00:34
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at checkout, you get 20% off your first order. Head to athleticbrewing.com and order yourself the best non-alcoholic beer you'll ever drink. I mean it. Also, I don't get any money. They're not sponsoring the podcast. It's just a promo code that they gave me as an ambassador, so I figured I'd share it with you guys.
00:00:54
Speaker
I get points towards like flair in beer, but no actual money. So that's the transparency aspect of this. Okay. Check it out. You won't be disappointed. I swear. This is a constant for me is like when I sit down to write, I'm immediately also editing.
Challenges of Writing & Editing
00:01:10
Speaker
You know, like I sit down and I'm like, well, this sentence that I just wrote could already be better as opposed to just like, just get it out, just get out what you need to say, you know, um, and you get to go back and edit it. Like my, it's almost like my brain just as in constant editing mode.
00:01:33
Speaker
Oh and wouldn't you know it, that is say word Darby, editor in chief of the Atavist magazine, putting on the uniform as player coach, writing her first piece in five years at this epic bastion to narrative journalism that is Atavist magazine, magazine.atavist.com.
Investigative Piece on Sexual Misconduct
00:01:52
Speaker
Go subscribe, no I don't get any kickbacks or money so you know my recommend.
00:01:57
Speaker
So you know my recommendation is true. Oh, by the way, this is the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, the show where I speak to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories. I'm Brendan O'Mara. How's it going? In this investigative piece, Sayward tells the story of several Jane Does and the alleged sexual abuse and sexual misconduct and inappropriate relationships of several leaders and teachers at a particular school in the Los Angeles public school system had with their students.
00:02:27
Speaker
This is a progressive magnet school and it would appear that there was an alleged culture of abuse among a few teachers, even systemic and pervasive. Several brave Jane Does came forward and say word tells their story and it might invite more to come forward. We lead this conversation off with Jonah Ogles.
00:02:49
Speaker
who took up the lead on this piece getting to edit his colleague and pal at the Atavus. Sayward even said she got the famous Jonah memo after he read her first draft. Ma'am, what must that be like to get the Jonah memo? I'd love that. Probably won't happen, but
00:03:09
Speaker
I'd love that to happen one of these days. Show notes to this episode and a billion others are at brendanomare.com. Hey, there you may also sign up for the up to 11 rage against the algorithm newsletter. This is where it's at, CNFers. I'm not one to hang out and scroll on social media, but I am one to put a lot of effort into my kick-ass newsletter that entertains, gives you value, and sticks it to the algorithm, shoves it right up the algorithm's keister. If that's your thing, sign up.
00:03:38
Speaker
Been doing it for many, many years.
Podcast Critique & Improvement
00:03:40
Speaker
First of the month, no spam, can't beat it. Oh, wouldn't you know, the first of the month is tomorrow, depending on when you listen to this podcast. I'm flirting with, just a short thing before we get to June, okay? Just short little thing. Not parting shot worthy, it's just this little thing, okay? Hang tight. So I'm flirting with getting a new microphone. Make my tone sound a little bit warmer, a little more polished.
00:04:05
Speaker
And I played a segment from my recent episode with Kim Cross, just the introduction to my wife, and I asked her how it sounded. She said my voice sounded bad, that I breathed too close to the mic, and I feel like I have good mic awareness anyway, but above all,
00:04:23
Speaker
I'm far too negative. She's like, I wouldn't listen to your show. You're way too negative. I was like, I'm not asking for a critique of the content of the show. Thank you. I'm asking about the tone of my microphone. Yeah, but you complain that the show isn't growing and I bet that's why. And then I'm like, well, I think people like when I'm honest and even a little negative because that's how I feel.
00:04:44
Speaker
She's like, are you sure they like it? I'm like, I've got emails and tweets saying people like when I express my negative, ugly, bastardized feelings. She's like, well, I think you're too negative. I said, well, thank you. I'll take your unsolicited feedback on the content and I will think about it. And then we sat in silence for several minutes.
00:05:09
Speaker
Borderline an hour.
Editorial Collaboration & Process
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Speaker
Okay batting lead-off here is Jonah And wouldn't you know that the lead writer featured writer this month is none other than say we're Darby I know it's it's a special treat for all of us
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the
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kind of helmed up the editing of Sayword's investigative masterpiece. So what was that like, having to edit Sayword, who so often does most of the, much of the editing? Well, it was pretty easy in terms of just like workflow, you know, because we're in contact a lot.
00:06:20
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, she gets it. I mean, she's, she's a tremendously talented writer. So, you know, this, this story didn't really take much editing in terms of, you know, me like chopping sentences up or providing structural notes, you know, there, there was very, there was very little actual futzing with text. So, so more, more of it really,
00:06:48
Speaker
it was more of a conversation that we were having just sort of consistently, you know, just talking to each other about things because I know that
00:07:01
Speaker
Well, first of all, she just turned in a great draft. It's more or less like what we published. If I did like a compare documents, I'm sure it would be like 95% the same. I mean, I'd actually be curious what she thought of it. But to me, the process felt very laid back, very conversational. And it really gave us an opportunity, I think, to
00:07:27
Speaker
really just refine something that was already really working and was already very good when I got it. And when you get a story like that, then it's sometimes even worse because then the pressure is, can we make this a really great story? When it's a story that comes in,
00:07:49
Speaker
and it's in rough shape and you just get it to like, okay, this is a good story. I think it's serviceable. Yeah, my job is done. I took a story that wasn't quite right, and I'm not saying this like as a judgment on the writers, the writers are often the ones saying like, I can't crack this thing. And so we spend all of our time
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Speaker
really sort of dragging it forward. And that wasn't the case with this piece. It was great already and we were just trying to make it as good as we possibly could by the time we had to push it out the door.
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made it so good as well and made the drafts that you saw probably relatively easy to metabolize was how hard Sayward felt like she had to be on herself because it's so much like if you're a dad coaching your kid's baseball team and you're going to put them at shortstop and you're like,
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I'm gonna be I gotta be twice as hard on my kid because I don't want anyone to think I'm playing favorites and given that you guys published 12 pieces a year and granted this is the first piece that say we've ever had in five years that at the out of us but
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Speaker
it's like one of those things like, oh, wow, the editor in chief took up one of those slots from a freelancer. So I, you know, she she knew she had to be that much harder on herself. So it's I think that that really shined through and in the work, I imagine. Well, certainly, sayward feels a great
Handling Sensitive Stories
00:09:22
Speaker
deal of responsibility. Yeah. I'm shoulders at all at all time. You know, and I think I think she also I mean, in the early days of this of this story, you know, when it was just something she was
00:09:35
Speaker
looking into, and we didn't know if it was going to be an out-of-the-story or not. It was just her and I talking about stuff, and she had found out about these lawsuits. There was a conversation about, is this an out-of-the-story, is it not? Because I think that was in her head even then, did she want to use one of the slots.
00:10:02
Speaker
But it really, you know, it felt to me like it was an out of this story. And I actually don't know how Sayward feels about this, but well, I know that she felt a great responsibility to these women, you know, which is any writer writing any story can relate to that. But certainly writers working on pieces where
00:10:26
Speaker
sources are sharing stories of trauma and sort of the worst things to have happened to them. Writers feel this great responsibility as they should to do right by the sources and do right by the story.
00:10:40
Speaker
And I don't think I had probably ever said this to say word because it became clear we were going to do it anyway. But if you have the chance to do that type of story for a publication where you have more control, you know, where you where you inherently trust. I hope she inherently trusts me and Sean and Ed, our designer and the fact checker, Kyla, who we work with, you know, she has she has relationships with all these people.
00:11:08
Speaker
And so it's much easier, I think, to bring such a sensitive piece to people that you already work with and trust and you know, okay, the advice I'm going to get from these people is going to be good advice. It's advice that I need to listen to. And that's not always
00:11:28
Speaker
You're not getting good advice at other publications, you are, but when you're a writer, and it might be the first time working with an editor, there's a lot of faith and trust built into that relationship that you have to sort of build on the fly. And in this case, she didn't have to, because we're all here, we all love her. We all want the story to be great. And so I hope that that resulted in sort of a
00:11:57
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a better process, a process that she felt really confident in as she was working through revisions and fact check and all of that. As I'm picturing you guys having the discussion of is this an out of a story or not, I'm picturing this needle going back and forth.
00:12:14
Speaker
It's going one way, maybe not, and now it's starting to edge and it's going over the middle. Yeah, that's going to be an out of a story. In that sense, what ultimately tipped the scale and you guys were confident to be like, yeah, this is going to be an out of a story? Yeah. Well, for me, it is the openness of the Jane Does that we talked to.
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Speaker
You know, because you can look their versions of every story. You know, every story has probably a limitless number of ways it could be written and edited.
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Speaker
And there are versions of this story that are a Los Angeles Times investigative piece, you know, super easy to imagine how that looks. It could be three, four or five part series, like, you know, a little bit of like that classic newspaper trying to sneak in some narrative lead.
00:13:13
Speaker
you know, and then you just hit people with details in the complaints. And that's a way to do it. And you can imagine sort of like an investigative outlet where that's what they do, you know, doing a story like this that has a little bit more narrative detail in it. But for me, what makes it an out of this story
00:13:40
Speaker
is the depth of the narrative in the scenery. And it's, you know, and all of it in this particular story is really heavy stuff. You know, it's really heavy stuff. And so when you start off reporting a story like this, you don't know if your sources are going to be the types of people who want to talk deeply about these things, or if they're going to be
00:14:07
Speaker
able to remember all of it, or if the way they remember it will fall apart as you start fact-checking it. But as she got deeper and deeper into the story, it became clear that there were not only opportunities to add that depth of scenery and character that I think of as trademarks of an adivis story, but that
00:14:33
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the Jane Doves were actually gonna, you know, they were really incredible sources with great memories, you know, a willingness to be vulnerable and open with Sayward and trust her. And so eventually,
00:14:50
Speaker
Eventually, that's when the needle tips, you know, into the Adivis story. It's like, okay, this isn't just an investigative piece. This is a piece in which we are going to get to know characters and feel deep sympathy for the experience that they went through because of the detail with which we will describe that.
Storytelling in Investigative Journalism
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Speaker
A couple months ago, Greg Donahue's piece, he ended it with this sort of metaphorical scene that really encapsulated what everything that had come before it. And it was a beautiful ending. And we talked about the strength and the power of endings in that metaphorical sense, where it just felt like a really wrong true.
00:15:31
Speaker
And with Sayward's piece, she has a very metaphorical lead with the earthquake and everything that that symbolizes. When you're starting to generate a piece of this nature, what is the calculus of deploying that metaphorical lead?
00:15:54
Speaker
I mean, God, I wish there was an equation so that I knew when it was the right time to do it. I say to writers, and this isn't what happened in this particular case, but in general, when I'm talking to writers about something like this, I will say to them, try it. If it's something that's weighing on their mind, if they can't get rid of the idea, let's try it and see how it reads.
00:16:24
Speaker
You know, because I think it becomes apparent pretty quickly that whether it's working or not, even though, you know, quote unquote working or not is sort of a gut thing, you know, but I think generally the writer and editor can figure out is this resonating with us or isn't it?
00:16:43
Speaker
in the case of this story, Sabre had that in the story before I even read it. And I remember, okay, so just walking you through like how I'd read this as an editor, I read two sentences and my brain knowing that this is a story about alleged sexual abuse in a
00:17:06
Speaker
public school district goes, hey, this isn't the story I expected to read. So there's a natural, there's a skepticism, right? My brain immediately goes, this isn't what I was expecting. So what now? And I think, so then it's on the writer to basically deliver the goods. And I think Sayward does that.
00:17:36
Speaker
Partly because just the writing is strong and good.
Ethical Considerations in Journalism
00:17:40
Speaker
And I think readers are more likely to trust strong, good writing and give those writers more leeway than if it's bad writing, which may sound a little stupid and oversimplified, but I think it's true. And so you keep going, you keep reading.
00:17:57
Speaker
And then it becomes clear, you know, that then she ties it into the story and you realize, Oh, I see what she's doing. And then, then what you're sort of checking your gut for, what I'm checking my gut for is do I feel duped? Do I feel like this was a trick? You know, was it just like a little, the writer sort of trying to be flashy or, or does it feel sort of like appropriate and
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Speaker
in line with the subject and tone of the story. With this one, the first time I read it, I think the note I even made for myself in the margins was like, wow, I would not have thought to do this in a
00:18:46
Speaker
in a hundred drafts, if I were the one writing this story, but it just worked. And I think she had done a lot of work on it before she said it to me, but it worked as soon as I saw it. Specifically, you know, the final sentence of this lead to where it says, like, scientists believe there was a dense thicket of invisible faults underneath Los Angeles threatening to convulse the city. Yeah, yeah, it does. I mean, you know, you do
00:19:17
Speaker
You do these stories and they're tough. I don't want to sound, I don't know, like too sensitive or something, but they're tough to work on. I think obviously it's much tougher for Sayward to work on, and no one's comparing Sayward in my experience to these women. But they're tough things to work on, and frankly,
00:19:47
Speaker
the thrill of telling a good story is not probably worth it, you know, to undertake a story like this, just so you can like say you wrote a good story. You do it because you want it to have an impact, you know. And in the way out of the story, which we're like just finalizing today, you know, there's a
00:20:13
Speaker
you know, a sidebar in it that says like if you are someone you know, experienced.
00:20:21
Speaker
sexual abuse at this school or within the Los Angeles school district, you know, reach out. And that's in there because these cases often occur in clusters. You know, there are probably more, there may be more stories out there to tell. And it's sort of a
00:20:46
Speaker
You know, that's a part of journalism that I struggle with is you do these types of stories because you want to make a difference. But in doing so, you know that it means individuals will have to relive trauma and pain.
00:21:07
Speaker
Yeah, and then you're putting, you're pulling back those scars and then putting it in the hands of a stranger who becomes a little more than a stranger over time, but then you have to trust that they handle it responsibly and that's got to be
00:21:24
Speaker
really, really hard. Not only coming forward and have to relive it, but then you're putting it in the hands of someone that you have to be like, I guess I'm going to trust you with this, not to mess it up and not to hurt me any more than I've already been hurt. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it requires
00:21:47
Speaker
I don't know, I guess a fate in each other, you know, that probably speaks to sort of like the best part of ourselves to be, and this gets back to what I was saying earlier and the immense responsibility that I feel even just being like, you know, so many
00:22:08
Speaker
places removed from these women's stories, but I feel it, and I'm sure Sayward feels it even more, and I know the fact checker did, and the copy editor, I mean, we all talked about this, you know, but we're, I hope we did write by these women, and I hope they feel that when the story
00:22:29
Speaker
allow me to interject just for a moment for the remainder of this section of the interview. When I was speaking with Jonah, a little technical snafu happened to
Empathy in Editing & Writing
00:22:41
Speaker
my microphone wherein the XLR cable jarred loose and then the microphone then became
00:22:50
Speaker
my laptop microphone and you will know why I always recommend people to at least wear some headset because you will notice a stark difference.
00:23:01
Speaker
in audio quality, be forewarned, it's not good. And the last thing I wanted to maybe just talk about is how I think a lot of times maybe even younger writers who are maybe just getting started and they're working with editors and maybe they feel like, you know, what do editors know? They're not writers.
00:23:23
Speaker
And so often, some editors do some of the best goddamn feature work you've ever read. I think it was like Daniel Zaleski's stuff for the New Yorker, who works with like David Graham, Patrick Radden Keyes, like all those heavy hitters. And everyone sings his praises as an editor. But his profiles, his one on Guillermo del Toro is like amazing. It is so, so good.
00:23:48
Speaker
And I'm so happy to see Sayward who like ushers in so much great work along with you. And I'm so like thrilled to see, granted her sisters in hate, her book is incredible. And it's a great reminder that people who primarily edit are some of the best, if not underappreciated reporters and writers that we have out there. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's a
00:24:16
Speaker
tough thing to do, I think. I mean, I, and I say this as someone who stopped writing a long time ago, you know, other than like very short things here and there, but, you know, I, so I admire someone like Sayward who's capable of doing both things, because it is a different
00:24:41
Speaker
It's like a different brain that you use. Saybert and I even talked about this sort of late in the process. She was reading the story and she would slack me and say like, I can't figure out which part of my brain I'm using. Am I using the editor part of the brain or am I using the writer part of the brain? Because you just, you do, you look at it a little differently, but one, I mean, one
00:25:02
Speaker
One thing I would say to writers, because I think you're right, especially like when I was young, I thought, I didn't want to be, I don't want to be an editor. I want to write. Like, who cares who's like editing those? Yeah. But holy cow, is it an education? I mean, the advantage you get is, you know, okay, even a really good writer, you know, writes, writes what? Like, four big features a year.
00:25:32
Speaker
you know, um, and then maybe a lot of smaller stuff. Like as an editor and granted you got to, most places you have to work your way up to edit the features, but I mean that, you know, at outside I was editing like two, three, four features a month once a website was going up. And that's just what it is. It's more experience dealing with problems and finding solutions for them. So you just end up with more tools.
00:26:00
Speaker
in your toolbox so you can say, whoa, yeah, I know what to do with this type of situation. We had to fix that a year ago, you know? And it really, really walk away with just a ton of knowledge about how stories are structured and how reporting tricks and how to deal with sources and whether they're angry or whatever it is, it's just more experience. I would highly encourage
00:26:30
Speaker
any young writers out there to spend a little time in the trenches as an editor, if they can find the gear. Oh, for sure, for sure. Well, Joanna, it was always a great pleasure getting to tease out this piece, and it was all the more special that it got to be Sayword's piece this
Ethical Responsibilities in Storytelling
00:26:47
Speaker
month. So as always, thanks for the time, and we'll kick it over to Sayword now in just a moment. All right, thanks so much, Brendan.
00:26:59
Speaker
We are about to hear from Saeward Darby. She's the author of Sisters in Hate. She's a frequent visitor to CNF Pod HQ, you know that. She sees herself as an editor, reporter, and writer in that order, but I see her many roles more like a tripod. She can't balance without either leg, and I'm especially thrilled for her to show off because many writers, especially
00:27:26
Speaker
I would say emerging or maybe younger writers just getting out of school who might think that there's an adversarial relationship between writer and editor. I think editors are just failed writers.
00:27:37
Speaker
So I'm happy to see her get to show off her chops with this piece, not that she has anything to prove given how great a lot of her essays and columns and certainly her work with Sisters in Hate is. So like I said, I'm just happy she gets to show off a little bit in a sense. I know I brought that up with Jonah a bit, but I'm really, I just want to underscore that.
00:27:59
Speaker
Podcasters, on the other hand, might be failed writers. Is that negative? Is that what my wife was talking about? God damn it. You like it. You get it, right? Right?
00:28:11
Speaker
Start off by noting that Sayward's piece doesn't necessarily have some of the super scene-driven narrative elements we're used to seeing with the activist. So that's the starting point of this segment of the podcast. Here is the great Sayward Darby.
00:28:32
Speaker
I just wonder, what's your sense of the piece given that it doesn't have some of the classic narrative propulsion that we sometimes see with pieces that have the suicide race or kayaking across the Bering Strait?
00:28:48
Speaker
Yeah, it's a great question. And, you know, I will say like this is the first time I've written for The Atavist and I've always been kind of hesitant to do it because we only publish 12 stories a year. I want to leave those slots open for, you know, for freelancers. I've just never felt super comfortable with publishing my own work in the magazine.
00:29:14
Speaker
But when I started working on this story, I felt immediately very protective of it because of the women at the heart of it and how deeply traumatized they were, but also how brave and generous they were being with their time.
00:29:32
Speaker
And ultimately, I realized that there is a narrative here. It's told chronologically over the course of about 25 years. And so I felt confident that there would be that arc of a beginning, middle, and end, which isn't to say that everything is resolved, but it's not an inverted pyramid of an investigation. It's a story that builds as it goes. And then I also felt like,
00:29:59
Speaker
You know, I knew that the activist, like our team could do it justice. And I just immediately, you know, I mean, I went back and forth was like, should I publish this somewhere else? And and it just ultimately, for any number of reasons, made sense.
00:30:15
Speaker
to do it in the Atavist. That being said, if I had published it somewhere else, I might have told it a bit differently. Certainly there was a version of this story that was more tightly focused on one of the cases of alleged abuse, as opposed to all of them, that wasn't quite so sweeping, I guess, in its approach.
00:30:38
Speaker
And because it was in the Atavist, I definitely felt the imperative of making it as Atavisty as possible. And so I certainly looked to other Atavist stories that I've either had the pleasure of working on as an editor or that I read before I came on board as an editor that were more
00:30:58
Speaker
investigative. So the most recent one that comes to mind is The Love Bomb, which we published last year. And there are similarities for any number of reasons between the story and that one, not least the kind of cultish aspect of what's being exposed.
00:31:16
Speaker
But also that was a good example, the love bomb, I think, of tackling a story that if it had been published elsewhere, probably would have like the focus would have been narrower. And the love bomb covers, what is it, 40 years, basically, of time. And, you know, it worked really well for us. It did really well for us. And, you know, really got a conversation going in a survivor community. And so, you know, kind of took cues from from those types of stories.
00:31:44
Speaker
And we also, I will say, try to do a mix of stories. We have the more adventurous pieces, both of the ones you cited. One is contemporary, one is historical, but ultimately,
00:31:57
Speaker
you know, are kind of more in that adventure vein. And then we certainly do lots of true crime. And then we do, you know, once or maybe twice a year, you know, a more investigative piece. And I think one of the fun challenges of working at the Atavist is figuring out how to make
00:32:15
Speaker
different types of pieces out of a steed, if that makes sense. So, you know, there are certain types of stories, certain genres of stories that naturally lend themselves to this, you know, yarn approach of storytelling. And it's always fun. I mean, no matter what the subject matter is, and the subject matter is by no means fun, but
00:32:36
Speaker
it's always like the challenge of figuring out how do we make this feel like it belongs in the oddivist, you know, as opposed to somewhere else. So yeah, that was kind of the thinking and thankfully I had Jonah to, you know, bounce ideas off of and it's always very weird to go from being the editor to the writer but
00:32:58
Speaker
But, you know, Jonah's such a great, such a great editor and collaborator, and because I think it's very important to always have two editorial brains at least on something. We also worked with Peter Rubin, who is the head of publishing at Automatic, our parent company. So he, you know, oversees both Atavist and Longreeds from a strategic standpoint, and he kind of stepped in to be the second editor.
00:33:23
Speaker
And yeah, I'm proud of the story. I'm nervous about the story in a couple of different ways, just not least because there's a lot in here and a lot of accusations. But I'm also really, really proud of not just myself, but of like the activist for putting out this kind of investigative work.
00:34:01
Speaker
what makes you
00:34:01
Speaker
been lucky enough to have several women, including the four Jane Doe's in the lawsuits that are at the heart of this story, really trust me with their time and with their stories and with their feelings. And, you know, there's pressure always in those situations to make sure you're doing it justice, you know, to kind of live up to what they are offering. And so, you know, they're always just nerves about, you know, I feel
00:34:30
Speaker
pretty good about the story. But any writer, any writer, you know, writers, you're about to publish something, you have that wonder of like, I don't know, is this good? Just because that's, you know, that's how writers are. But you know, I definitely feel a lot of responsibility to to the women, given how incredibly open and again, generous is the word I keep coming back to you with their time. So there's that. And then
00:34:56
Speaker
I think that, you know, I talked to dozens and dozens of people for this story and the alumni
Reactions to Allegations & Systemic Issues
00:35:02
Speaker
community of the school that's at the heart of this story is quite split. You know, I talked to people who had either heard about the accusations or were not surprised when I told them about the accusations and, you know, have really been, sorry, there's an ambulance going by my window. Must be New York in the rain.
00:35:29
Speaker
who really are able to look back on their experience and say, I now see things that are red flags. And then I spoke to people who are not interested in doing that. I spoke to people who asked why I was bothering to write this story at all, because the magnet program at the heart of it is such a great program. And why would I want to destroy it? Which, I mean, just to be clear,
00:35:54
Speaker
I'm telling a story of alleged abuse. The intent of the story is not to destroy anything. It's to expose suspected wrongdoing. It's systemic at that too. Right.
00:36:09
Speaker
Yes. And so that's the other thing is I think there are some people in the alumni community, especially who feel like, okay, well, even if we acknowledge that potentially bad things happened, we bad apples, right? It was a bad apples problem. And those bad apples are gone because they've either retired or they've died or, you know, whatever.
00:36:28
Speaker
as opposed to are there maybe some systemic issues we need to be looking at here. So, and I also had, you know, some alumni, it was really quite surprising, you know, the whole ethos of this magnet program is, you know, about, you know, progressive education and, you know, talking about things like
00:36:47
Speaker
racism and sexism and classism and you know educating young people to be open-minded to be on the side of good right and so it was quite interesting in contacting some alumni who you know their response
00:37:04
Speaker
They were such stereotypical responses of, well, I think the fact that these lawsuits were filed so many years after the fact, meaning whatever the accusation is, really speaks for itself. The tropes you hear about these kinds of
00:37:21
Speaker
cases and the type of pushback they get. And to hear that from members of a community of people who really consider themselves, pride themselves on being products of this education was quite frankly jarring. That's all to say, you know, I think that there will be
00:37:40
Speaker
a conversation that happens in the alumni community or, you know, parts of the alumni community. And I think there are ways in which it will be positive, but there's also, you know, a chance for a lot of disagreement and I think pain. I think, you know, I spoke to people for whom
00:37:57
Speaker
hearing about these accusations for the first time. And oftentimes I was the first person to tell them, you know, I had many people cry on the phone with me about, you know, not because they personally were harmed or say that they were harmed, but because it just completely reframed the way that they thought about their education. And
00:38:19
Speaker
I went to high school. Most of us went to high school. I have no fealty to my high school. I had a perfectly good education. The feeling of being part of something greater than yourself, of you're part of something special. You are part of something pioneering. That's really something that a lot of people who've been through this program take away with them. And to have that
00:38:43
Speaker
challenged or in some cases for some people completely destroyed. That's a lot. It's emotional. So those are the reasons I'm nervous. I stand by this story. I reported the hell out of it. I have such incredible sources who were really willing to go all these extra miles with me in talking about these experiences.
00:39:05
Speaker
But I also am now intimately aware of some of the tensions that exist within this community. So yeah, that's kind of where my thinking is, on the NURBS front.
00:39:21
Speaker
Right. And how did you go about navigating the real tough and raw conversations that you had with several of your sources that you give pseudonyms to in the story?
Interviewing Sensitive Sources
00:39:35
Speaker
As they're talking and giving you very raw or visceral details, it can be hard to know when to ask, when to sit back, when to just let silence do the thing. How did you navigate that part of it?
00:39:48
Speaker
Well, let's see, I, you know, I really started almost all of my interviews and this went for the Jane Doe's in the story, but also for pretty much everybody else in the story as well. And also I should say people I spoke to who are not, you know, quoted in the story, but whose information, you know, very much informed things.
00:40:05
Speaker
by saying like let me tell you who I am, let me tell you why I'm interested in reporting this, and let me open myself up to questions. So essentially starting from the standpoint of I want you to feel comfortable with me. And in most cases that was it's it's funny actually I felt bad for Kyla my fact checker going through my transcripts because I feel like
00:40:27
Speaker
The first quarter of my transcripts is this sort of refrain of me doing that, saying, what questions do you have for me? What can I answer? Things like that. So she just had to scroll through those.
00:40:42
Speaker
But then, you know, with the Jane Doe's especially, first of all, I spoke to their attorney, attorneys, I should say, first, because I didn't know who these women were, their Jane Doe's in the legal system. And I had a couple of conversations with their attorneys. And same sort of thing, you know, who am I? Why am I interested in this? Like, why do I think it's an important story? What is my approach? And I think that the attorneys then were able to go to the women and say, you know, we have
00:41:09
Speaker
good feeling about this person. And then what I did with each of the women was I offered, let's just start by having a conversation completely off the record where we just get to know each other a little bit. And three of them took me up on that. One of them was actually just fine to kind of go right in and meet in person and talk about things. But, you know, those other conversations lasted in some cases, like more than an hour of just
00:41:36
Speaker
who am I? What work have I done? What are my values? But then also we talked a lot about boundaries. So I made it clear, and this is again before we were even formally doing an interview, you can tell me if you don't want to talk about something. And if I ask a question and you don't want to answer it, just tell me you don't want to answer it.
00:41:57
Speaker
This is not about my feelings, right? And I also made it clear, you know, I explained the fact-checking process, for instance, up front. And I was like, we're going to do these interviews, and they're going to be hard. Please know that, like, I am here both during the interviews, but also after the interviews, in between the interviews, whatever it may be, like, if you need to talk. Like, if you want to talk to me about the process, if you have questions.
00:42:19
Speaker
And then I'm not interested in surprising anybody so the fact-checking process will be very detailed and a person will be reaching out to you and going through everything in the story that's about you. And you know part of that is so that if there are things that you suddenly feel uncomfortable with
00:42:37
Speaker
um or in retrospect having you know spent time sitting with what you told me you feel uncomfortable with we can talk about that like i might make a case for why i think it's important to include a detail in a story but if you tell me like that makes me deeply uncomfortable that you know i just you know i'm gonna lose sleep over it or you know any number of things you know i'm not i'm not interested in
00:43:00
Speaker
doing harm, right? Like I try, I'm trying to operate as a journalist from a principle of doing no harm, particularly to vulnerable subjects. So that's kind of like there was just a lot of kind of precursor conversation and question answering and boundary setting. So for instance, all four of the women were very clear that they did not want to talk in detail about the actual sexual abuse they alleged happened to them. And
00:43:26
Speaker
that was fine by me. I didn't need them to tell me in detail what happened, the fact of the sexual abuse. And I should say some of the details are articulated in depositions and in legal complaints. So there was stuff there that I could draw from if they did not feel comfortable talking to me about it. But yeah, I really tried to be compassionate and also to recognize that I was asking a lot
00:43:54
Speaker
of these women and in turn I needed to give of myself, I guess, in a way that I wouldn't necessarily on a different type of piece with fewer kind of minefields emotionally, legally, otherwise.
00:44:11
Speaker
So, and you know, the women took took me up on that. So they, I mean, the interviews, let's see, some of the, I think the first one I did lasted about nine hours in person. And it kind of progressed from one site to another. And then ultimately, you know, we were going through old high school materials that she had kept.
00:44:30
Speaker
And another one, I want to say it was about five hours in person. Another one was about seven hours in person. Like it was just, you know, these very, very deep, long interviews. I also made it clear that, you know, what they could decide on the circumstances of the interview. So, you know, one woman really only wanted to be on the phone. One person, you know, wanted to meet in a place on a beach that, you know, she felt very comfortable at. And she asked if she could bring a friend. Sure. Fine. You know,
00:45:00
Speaker
It was like whatever we need to do to make you feel comfortable with this process. And also at any point, if you need to get up and walk away, if you need to tell me to go away, like, please do that. I've spent a lot of time over the last now nine months working on this story, thinking a lot about, obviously there are lines that must be kept in place between journalists and sources, but not every source is created equal, right? And in this case, it felt like I needed to bring more of myself
00:45:30
Speaker
to the table and also be willing to be flexible in ways that I just wouldn't normally think about. And it's been kind of a real-time education, honestly, in terms of me evaluating what I believe in as a journalist, what I value as a journalist.
00:45:48
Speaker
And what does it mean to tell a fair and accurate story, but also be the best person you can be in that process? Which isn't to say that I haven't made mistakes along the way or whatever, but it's definitely like I'm grateful, and I've said this to the women, I'm grateful that I personally and professionally have had that opportunity to kind of go through, I don't know, just a very, very different type of reporting experience than I've ever had before.
00:46:16
Speaker
Was there any point during especially the reporting phase, maybe even as you were writing it, that it felt like it was going to kind of fall apart and not come to fruition?
00:46:29
Speaker
Oh, that's a great question. You know, early on, I was very lucky because when I found out about the story and I started looking into it, the attorneys, the plaintiff's attorneys were willing to share some documentation and materials that really kind of cracked the thing open for me. And that's not always the case. So I felt quite confident from the beginning that I was going to be able to tell a story.
00:46:56
Speaker
It wasn't like along the way there was a moment where I was worried the bottom was going to fall out. It was more like for that uphill climb. I wasn't quite sure what sort of story this was going to be. And so I didn't know if any of the four women were going to talk to me.
00:47:14
Speaker
I didn't know if, and to be clear, there's a story to tell based on all these other interviews and on the legal documentation I have, but it is a significantly more powerful and definitive story with these women willing to speak to me. So it was more like those first two to three-ish months wondering
00:47:37
Speaker
how long can this story be? How deep can this story be? And I'm going to keep pushing and trying. And I ultimately, all four of the Jane Does in the lawsuits. And then in addition to that, some other key witnesses to the alleged abuse, being willing to talk at length with me, I can't think of a moment where I was like, oh, no, this is all going to fall apart. It was more, I really wanted it to be the story that it ultimately became in terms of depth and breadth.
00:48:05
Speaker
there was just this period of not being sure because it's so hinged on people saying yes as opposed to do I have access to that document like I was able to get that kind of access it was more a question of like are people going to trust me are people going to be you know willing to help me make this you know as robust of a story as I think it's possible for it to be
00:48:28
Speaker
And so there was actually, I flew out to California in February to meet with a key sort of witness and then also one of the Jane Do's. And I thought it was possible at that point that that might be the only Jane Doe who was going to talk to me. I got back to the East Coast and pretty quickly one of the attorneys got in touch with me and he was like, can you come back to California?
00:48:54
Speaker
Um, because one of the other Jane does wants to talk to you, but would really like to do it in person. And so I was like, yup, turning around, you know? Um, and you love flying. Oh my God, Brendan, I hate flying. And can I tell you the second, the second trip to California, I had one of the worst experiences of my life. So, uh, it was an, it was an over not an overnight, but like, Oh, you know, later evening flight from JFK to, um, to LAX and we,
00:49:21
Speaker
we're in the plane, we're going at speed down the runway, and then they slam on the brakes. And they come over the intercom, and they're like, so one of our engines just isn't working correctly. And this is actually my nightmare. But I also think, I mean, to be clear, my actual nightmare would have been taking off and being in a plane and an engine wasn't working correctly. And thankfully, that's not what happened. But the flight got moved to the next day, and it was all chaos. But to tell you just how
00:49:48
Speaker
that is truly my nightmare and under normal circumstances I'd be like not getting on a plane for months no way no how and instead I was like how can I get to LA I have to get to LA um because you know I I felt so strongly about this story so so yeah it was definitely that kind of
00:50:06
Speaker
reporting process where I just needed to be flexible and available. And luckily at the activist, in terms of my full-time editing job, that was possible. I could kind of do that. I could work from wherever. I got COVID right when I started writing. So that had nothing to do with the trip. I got it from my poor sister-in-law who didn't even realize she had it and gave it to me.
00:50:28
Speaker
Um, but, uh, I was like, you know, locked in a room, um, trying not to give it to my husband, attempting to put together, you know, I have hundreds of pages of legal documents, you know, at this point, probably hundreds of hours of interviews. And, uh, and I was like, cool. My brain is not operating at full capacity. Great timing. Um, but, uh, but even then, you know, I was like, well, at least I'm locked in a room and I have nothing better to do. So, so I'm going to do this.
00:50:57
Speaker
Now, so much of what the Adivis does is what we consider real artful journalism, too, that elevated style that kind of reads short stories, even fiction. And this piece has elements of that, too, and specifically with the lead, which I'll ask you about in a moment. But in our conversation last month, just sort of off air, you were talking about
00:51:21
Speaker
you were just kind of teasing out this piece with me and saying, like, this one has a more service drive behind it. And so just given that it has, it's got a slightly different sort of hook to it in that you're hoping that this might open the floodgates for other Jane Doe's to come forward. So, you know, versus, just maybe talk a little bit about sort of the, you know, the artful journalism side of things, but also maybe a piece that is more service driven, as this one, I think, intends to be.
00:51:50
Speaker
Yeah, it's a great question. And definitely, you know, especially in the kind of copy editing legal review phase, you know, there are, you know, we have to use the word alleged a lot, we have to use the word suspected a lot, we have to, you know, say according to a lot, you know, things that don't immediately lend themselves to the most beautiful of writing, but at the same time, you know, are important from an ethical legal standpoint.
00:52:14
Speaker
And so, so definitely in working on the piece I tried from a structural standpoint to make sure that there would be pockets and the lead being one of these pockets where
00:52:28
Speaker
I was able to not have to worry about that language quite so much so that the whole piece doesn't feel like, according to, according to, according to. It was so clear to me, once I'd kind of summited the mountain and I had all the access I needed and sources had been forthcoming, I so clearly saw what the narrative was.
00:52:49
Speaker
Because the sort of terrifying thing about these stories is the way that they layer on each other and build on each other. And you can see, you know, in these allegations, the ways in which it seems like the, you know, accused were getting bolder, but we're also building on, you know, things they had previously tried with students. And so to me, it was like, oh, I see the narrative. And as long as I can execute the narrative and find, you know, again, these pockets that aren't quite so
00:53:17
Speaker
places where I could be a little more artful, where I could bring in, you know, some scenes and character details, stuff like that. I ultimately knew, like in my bones, that it was a good story, right? That there was a story here that people were going to be
00:53:33
Speaker
compelled to read because it's pretty shocking. And so, you know, I don't consider myself like I don't even consider myself a writer first, I kind of consider myself an editor reporter than a writer. And, and I just wanted the material that I found to speak for itself, as opposed to kind of, you know, getting lost and is my turn of phrase here.
00:53:55
Speaker
you know, unique or perfect or whatever. So yeah, and then I mean, another thing I guess that's important to say is that because so many people at the heart of the story are Jane Doe's, I could describe them to a certain extent, but there were so many sort of classic ways of developing a character that I could not use. I couldn't talk about them physically. I couldn't talk about them from, you know, what is their background, you know, ethnically, like,
00:54:21
Speaker
just anything, like any identifying details were things that they made clear they were pretty uncomfortable with. So I had to find other ways to get their characters to feel specific.
00:54:36
Speaker
and to get the characters to feel like you had a sense of who they are as people. And, you know, without some of the more classic details one uses to do that. So, you know, little actions, quotes, decisions that they made, ways that they, you know, articulated things. You know, one of the Jane Doe's is, I mean, they're all private because they are all, you know,
00:55:01
Speaker
certainly, you know, they're keeping themselves anonymous as part of this legal process. But one of the four is even more private than the other, just an intensely private person. And I needed to kind of get that across in the story in more in more places than one. And so, you know, kind of this challenge of how do you convey who a character is as a person and what matters to them, you know, without describing them in a very literal way. And so, I don't know, I hope I pulled it off.
00:55:32
Speaker
Yeah, and the lead especially is this, you know, just the maybe 150 words or so of like describing this earthquake that happens. And it's a very metaphorical thing to what's happening throughout the story, but also in a sense, in a geologic sense that anything below the ground, all these long fault lines,
00:55:54
Speaker
that it can lead to something big down the road or it might not and So you kind of get that the sense that maybe something big is gonna happen. Maybe maybe not so when you're when you're considering a lead of this nature that is Metaphorical, you know, what what's the thought process behind? Okay. I think this is appropriate for this story versus maybe a
00:56:17
Speaker
just going in with the second section which just begins with Grover Cleveland High School and so on. But you do deploy this metaphorical lead that it does seem like it fits.
00:56:31
Speaker
Yeah, well, I mean, I first think it's very important to say that my husband deserves some credit for this lead because... Yeah, of course. In the course of working on this story, my husband also was reading a lot of Mike Davis, a great urban theorist, environmentalist, activist, Californian.
00:56:54
Speaker
I had said to my husband several times that I was struck in my interviews with people by how the Northridge earthquake kept coming up, especially for people who, you know, attended this high school between like 1990, 1995, because it had, I'm sorry, actually later than that, more like 93 to 98.
00:57:12
Speaker
Because it had a tremendous impact on the school physically, but then also just the way that students interacted with their space, right? And I kept telling I was like, it's just so interesting. Like, you know, I can't imagine what it's like to have this, you know, incredibly devastating event happen. And then it.
00:57:31
Speaker
you know, kind of fundamentally reshapes the way you interact with your environment on a day-to-day basis. And so I had just kind of mentioned that a few times offhand, and then when I started writing, I was trying a bunch of different, like, ways into the story, and I had some other ideas. And he, at one point, said, you should really read this chapter in Ecology of Fear by Mike Davis. It's about the earthquake. Because, like, maybe you'll find some inspiration in there.
00:57:57
Speaker
And lo and behold, he was very correct. But I also think it's like I read this one paragraph in particular.
00:58:06
Speaker
about blind thrust faults, which are a type of fault line. And it just like all of my creative kind of like wires started like sparking, you know, I was like, Oh, I see how this makes sense. Like, I see what the metaphor is. But this also kind of ties back into what we were talking about, you know, what makes this an out of a story, I don't necessarily know that every magazine would have loved this lead, they might have been like, what, why are we doing this? Like, let's just get into the meat of the story. And to me, because this is not one person's story,
00:58:35
Speaker
this is a lot of people's stories. And it is also, it is about, and I think you're, you're absolutely right. It's about like, these are all, there, there's all of this information, all these accusations that are just threatening, right? How is it going to shake? Who is it going to shake? What is it going to shake loose? Like to me, that was so important.
00:58:57
Speaker
to the story and I wanted to make that clear from go. I didn't want it to be something at the end where I'm like summarizing and being like, and the point was like, I kind of wanted to set this scene literally because the earthquake happened, you know, the epicenter was just a few blocks away from the high school, but then also kind of this metaphorical landscape, basically, in which the story is framed. So it was really just a lovely moment, honestly, when I was like, oh, wait, I see it.
00:59:25
Speaker
And it helped so much because then I felt like, you know, I've kind of set the terms of the story in a way that's very clear to me as a writer and hopefully very clear to readers. And also, you know, having spent so much time talking to these women,
00:59:43
Speaker
I wanted to make sure that it didn't feel like anybody's story was prioritized or bigger than anybody else's. I wanted it to feel like these are all part of something greater, and it felt really important to therefore not start with an individual. Does that make sense? I didn't want it to feel like, oh, well, the first person, the first line or whatever, it's this person.
01:00:04
Speaker
So instead, it's like, I'm going to kind of, again, set this literal scene, metaphorical scene, and then I'm just going to tell the story chronologically. And the earthquake is a part of the story, you know, literally and figuratively. So but but yeah, I would be I would be remiss if I didn't say that my husband's recent obsession with Mike Davis has, you know,
01:00:25
Speaker
shaped my own work. Yeah I love the where you write about the a dense thicket of invisible faults underneath Los Angeles like threatening to convulse the city and I was just like oh like that that's just so juicy when you talk about like you know what it's like potentially foreshadowing
01:00:45
Speaker
uh in small part it is and then in big part it could be like this thing that essentially shakes everything to the ground and you start with a story and it kind of reminded me of when Greg Donahue's story from a couple months ago where he like kind of ends on something that's more metaphorical that kind of tied a bow around
01:01:03
Speaker
Around the around him so it's like kind of it's interesting at those creative choices of where to deploy These kinds of you know artful renditions and it's a really cool like exercise and what you can do with it in nonfiction
01:01:19
Speaker
Maybe every other place I might have pitched this story would have been totally fine with it. But it felt like this lead feels atomistic to me. It feels like, OK, we're doing something a little different here from a narrative, nonfiction perspective. But then ultimately, not in any way losing sight of what is a public interest investigation. And then there were little ways along the way to also bring
01:01:46
Speaker
sort of not literal mention but kind of like oblique reference to an earthquake back into the story and you know talking about things like aftershocks and exposure to you know harm and damage and things like that and I do think I mean and there's a quote at the end of the story from one of the attorneys about how they are very confident that there are more women out there who
01:02:09
Speaker
had similar experiences, and I'm confident of this as well. I am aware of at least two who I think could have claims if they wanted to make them, but they didn't want to at this point, didn't necessarily want to speak to me at this point. On the one hand, I hope that there is no one else because I don't want there to have been anyone else who
01:02:34
Speaker
suffered this alleged abuse. But on the other hand, if there are those people out there, I think that this kind of story shows that it's not isolated. There's a pattern here. There's solidarity here amongst survivors and the possibility of some of these cracks widening and ultimately, yeah, shaking things loose.
01:02:56
Speaker
Also, everybody should just read Mike Davis. He's the best. He did an incredible interview in the LA Times recently. He's dying of cancer. And his interview just Q&A in the LA Times was just fantastic. He had one of the best answers I've heard anybody give about why progressive activism in the face of almost certain failure. And he's just a really
01:03:21
Speaker
in some ways like his kind of like ethos is also informing this story.
01:03:27
Speaker
I think with just a couple more things and I think it would be really illuminating for you to talk about what it was like having to kind of like take your editor hat off and then go in being the reporter and pure reporter and journalist you are and having to set that editor hat aside for a bit and surrender to other people giving you the SAWER treatment.
01:03:52
Speaker
So just like, what was that experience like for you to have to navigate that given your strong editor tendencies?
01:04:01
Speaker
I mean, I love being edited. I love being fact checked. I love being legal reviewed. Like I just never assume that I have all the answers. And I always assume, I mean, I assume that I don't have all the answers. I assume that I've made errors. And I also assume that there are just things I don't see that other people will see. You know, I just firmly, firmly believe that this kind of journalism, I mean, all journalism is collaborative, but this kind of like deep,
01:04:26
Speaker
reporting and, you know, sort of more elegant writing is a collaborative project. On the one hand, like definitely I had to, you know, take my editor hat off and be like, I'm just a reporter and writer in this situation. But at the same time, for me, I don't know, I don't
01:04:43
Speaker
I don't mind that because I so enjoy being on the other side of the divide, if you will. Because I enjoy all of the things that come with being a writer. And I think I said this before on the podcast.
01:04:58
Speaker
I think that it makes me a better editor, ultimately, to experience all the things that a writer in the hands of activist editors experiences, working on a story. Because it builds empathy. It also shows me ways in which, could we be doing things better? Could we be doing things differently? What are we not thinking about? I think that that is really crucial, honestly, to the whole enterprise. I think that the hardest thing for me on the reporting and writing front
01:05:29
Speaker
in terms of having editor brain is that, and this is a constant for me, is when I sit down to write, I'm immediately also editing. I sit down and I'm like, well, this sentence that I just wrote could already be better, as opposed to just get it out, just get out what you need to say, and you get to go back and edit it. It's almost like my brain just is in constant editing mode.
01:05:55
Speaker
It's hard to put up that firewall when you have such editor tendencies that you can just be so paralyzed by your own editor brain that you can't go forward. Yes. I think that that's absolutely right. And so I think that's the biggest struggle for me in these moments. But really, I just so enjoy
01:06:16
Speaker
And I mean, I know early on I said, you know, I've always been very hesitant to write for the activist for any number of reasons, mostly having to do with wanting to make sure that, you know, freelancers are, you know, having all the opportunities they can to publish with us. At the same time, I've been at this for five years, and this is the first time I've been on the other side of things. And, you know,
01:06:36
Speaker
I've now received a memo from Jonah and I've gotten notes on my work and it's a helpful, it really is. I don't want to do it all the time, but I think that there is something to be said for really understanding every facet of what we do. It's like an actor going behind the camera to be a director and it makes them a little more empathetic to the actor experience and vice versa.
01:07:04
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I think ultimately it worked out. If anything, I think I'm just harder on myself as a reporter and writer because I have that in her brain. Maybe that's for the best, I don't know. I feel like I'm just applying a lot of pressure to myself.
01:07:27
Speaker
um with that extra layer of you know kind of journalistic experience it's like i've worn a lot of hats and in this case i've got all of them on um and uh and you know figuring out how to like actually produce something under all that pressure i'm putting on myself um you know is tricky but but but really like i think the nature
01:07:47
Speaker
this story I also like I felt very safe the whole time like kind of knowing whose hands this was in you know really like sharing a collective vision for it and and that was just such a nice experience
01:08:03
Speaker
Very nice. Well, Sayward, this is your opportunity now to offer a recommendation to the audience, something that I like to ask guests when they're the featured guests of the show to bring the conversation down for a landing. And it can be anything. It can be fun, an app, a TV show, a pair of socks you're excited about, a brand of coffee. So the ball's in your court. What might you recommend to people out there as we bring this down for a landing?
01:08:29
Speaker
Oh man. Okay. Well, first of all, definitely Mike Davis, um, because I just recommended him, um, reading any Mike Davis ecology of fear, the book that the Northridge earthquake chapters in is fantastic. Also the Q and a and the LA times. Like, I think he's just a really, a really.
01:08:45
Speaker
brilliant person and I'm not by any means the first person to say that. So yeah, I think that and then my other recommendation would be I had the pleasure last weekend of spending time with my dear friend from college, her husband and their two-year-old
01:09:05
Speaker
You know, Sesame Street, that show still slaps. Like honestly, everybody needs some Sesame Street in their lives. And even if you don't have a kid, like I watched so much Sesame Street over the course of like three or four days and I just came away feeling like
01:09:21
Speaker
good about things. Like good about, there's a whole like segment about what it means to vote and like why voting is important. And like, of course, you're, you know, you're conveying in most basic terms to, you know, a two year old, they love Sesame Street when I was a kid, I've always loved the Muppets, which, you know, I realize these are sort of separate, but whatever. But this was my first time like really just watching Sesame Street, constantly, really on a loop as an adult. And man, I just I recommend Sesame Street to everybody. It's it's just so good.
01:09:49
Speaker
I remember a similar feeling to that not too long ago, and I watched, and this is like within the last year or two, of an episode of Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood. I'm like, I walked away from that. I'm like, I feel better about myself. I can do this. I can live.
01:10:05
Speaker
Absolutely, absolutely. The thing that's always been brilliant about Sesame Street is there's so much in it for adults too. A few months ago the internet went crazy for Elmo's beef with Rocco the Rock, which I can confirm is just as good when you're watching the full series.
01:10:29
Speaker
I like in little doses, you're kind of thinking more about it from that adult perspective. And when you're watching it full out and watching it with a two year old, it's like, even, even the parts that are just very straightforward. I don't know. It just, it kind of filled me with a lot of joy and hope. Um, and, uh, it was, yeah, it was great. So, um, Sesame street, go watch it.
01:10:53
Speaker
Fantastic. Well, this was great to talk to you at a greater length than we normally do about this incredible piece, your first one for Adivis in five years. So I'll look forward to the next one in 2027, say a word. Correct. It will be no sooner. Awesome. Well, thanks so much, say a word. Amazing work. And I wish you the best of luck with it. Thanks, Brendan.
01:11:20
Speaker
Oh, it happens, CNFers. You're gonna be heading over, okay? Listen, you're gonna go to magazine.adivis.com and I'd like you to subscribe, okay? It's 25 bucks a year. Not too shabby, considering the great bang for buck ratio. No, I don't get any money or kickbacks. You may think I'm a moron and you'd be right. But I like being transparent. Is that moron comment negative? Is that what my wife is talking about?
01:11:49
Speaker
Hey also, check out athleticbrewing.com and use BrendanO20 for a discount on some tasty brews. Again, I don't get any money, I get like points towards free stuff, so I just get to occasionally, once I
01:12:06
Speaker
Redeem enough I can get a couple six packs like we're not talking kegs and we're not talking shares in a company We're just kind of spreading the word for some a great alternative to Alcoholic consumption that I can help you out making out feel like shit I for one suffer hangovers that will last upward of two to three days if I so much as pure pro procure a buzz and
01:12:28
Speaker
So having tasty N.A. near beers kicking around alleviates the FOMO of not drinking that strikes me. And it also spares me hell and shame as I wake up the next day not wondering if I offended anybody. I always wake up the next day. I'm like, shit, did I say something stupid? Like, I just I feel like I did something wrong, even though when I objectively know I didn't do anything wrong, sometimes I'm like, God,
01:12:54
Speaker
Did I, did I say something stupid? Did I ask a dumb question? And that's usually why I just ask questions and that's why I just kind of nod and get people talking. And I don't offer much because eventually you get me talking long enough and I will say something. They'd be like, I don't feel like hanging out with this person any longer. My past performances in the shame department are legendary.
01:13:20
Speaker
BrendanOmero.com is where you get the newsletter. New one drops tomorrow, September 1st, depending on when you listen to this episode. Lots of cool stuff any writer would enjoy. First of the month, no spam. So far as I can tell, you can't beat it.
01:13:35
Speaker
Don't have much by way of a parting shot today. Okay, but I will have one in a couple days because I'm coming right back Right back with a great interview with the incredible biographer David Marinus Legendary biographer about his new book path lift by lightning about one of the greatest athletes of the 20th century in Jim Thorpe So stay wild seeing efforts and if you can do
01:14:04
Speaker
Interview. See ya.