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Ep 31 | Rachel Evans, Countryside Alliance: Where does Welsh school chicken come from?
131 Plays1 month ago
Tom Willings and Tom Woolman return to The Poultry Network Podcast with an update on the new-look newsletter (and a reminder to add it to your safe sender list so it drops every Friday around 9:30am).
Then they’re joined by Rachel Evans, Director for Wales at the Countryside Alliance, to unpack the Alliance’s punchy research into where chicken served in Welsh school meals is sourced from.
Ms Evans says the findings are “atrocious”: some councils reported the vast majority of school chicken coming from outside the UK/EU, including Merthyr Tydfil (99.35% from Thailand and China), Conwy (94% outside the UK/EU), Gwynedd (87.62% from Brazil, Thailand and China) and Caerphilly (87.32%).
Anglesey said 100% of its chicken is British, and Anglesey and Bridgend said none comes from outside the EU.
Crucially, Ms Evans says not one of Wales’s 22 local authorities could state what percentage of their chicken was sourced from Wales.
The conversation ranges from tight school budgets and affordability to assurance schemes (many citing Red Tractor), the per-meal value rising to £3.40 after an £8m funding increase, and the climate-policy contradiction of importing food “from the other side of the world”.
Ms Evans calls for an urgent review of Welsh Government procurement frameworks and an annual, public sourcing report so parents can see exactly what’s on children’s plates.
The full report and dataset are available on the Countryside Alliance website.
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Transcript
Introduction and Newsletter Updates
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Poultry Network podcast. My name's Tom Willings. And my name is Tom Woolman. Tom, how are you? Keeping well? I'm very well. Very well. Yeah, yeah. It stopped raining for once.
00:00:27
Speaker
I don't know where you are in the country, but it's still raining over here, I have to say. and And the forecast looks like it's going to be a wet fortnight ahead. Yeah. Yeah. Which means that if this episode doesn't go out for two weeks, then we should be fine. We'll still be covered. Exactly. Exactly. Good stuff. and What news in your world?
00:00:45
Speaker
We've got an update, haven't we, require a regarding the ah the Poultry Network newsletter? Yeah, some um some important news we should update people. um So you you might have noticed a bit of a layout change on the newsletter. And it's a great opportunity just to remind you to add us to your safe sender list, however you filter your your incoming emails, just to make sure that like clockwork, We land every Friday morning around about half past nine. So and if we haven't, go go looking in other filtered um mailboxes or what have you. But um yeah, you need to make sure that the podcast lands like clockwork, as I say, every Friday morning.
00:01:28
Speaker
It's quite a nice little format, I think, for the newsletter because it's none of us have really got time to to go diving into lots and lots of articles. And this really just gives you a skim of of the top stories for the week.
00:01:41
Speaker
um It's very easy to get into. And if you want to read more depth on on certain things, then you can click on a link and and you can read a full article. So, yeah. Absolutely right.
Introduction to Rachel Evans and Chicken Procurement Study
00:01:50
Speaker
Absolutely right. And in fact, today we've got a guest joining us from Countryside Alliance, who were um ah yeah in a recent edition of the of the newsletter and with a pretty punchy study that that they've done looking into the um yeah public procurement of ah of chicken in in Welsh schools. So, um yeah, this is ah it's going to be an interesting episode.
00:02:16
Speaker
It is. because And I think probably some of the things that that our guest Rachel is going to say might actually be a bit shock bit of a shock to some people. um So, yeah, very interesting. Please listen on.
00:02:29
Speaker
and um and And let's get into the interview with Rachel Evans. Hello, and I'm pleased to say that we are joined ah in the in the podcast studio, if you picture it.
00:02:41
Speaker
ah We are joined by Rachel Evans, who is the Director for Wales for the Countryside Alliance. Welcome, Rachel. Thank you very much. Have you done any podcasts before, Rachel?
00:02:54
Speaker
I think I've done one. So this is all a bit new to me, but hopefully more will follow after today.
00:03:02
Speaker
Well, it's a nice way to talk to people in a way that's a little bit more relaxed than a sort of a conventional ah press interview. So, um, Yes, we wanted to talk to you, Rachel, because you've been doing some really interesting research, haven't you, um about ah the procurement of chicken for for school meals in Wales.
00:03:22
Speaker
Do you want to just start so off by talking a little bit about your position and and and and what you do? Yeah, sure. So I'm the director for Wales for the Countryside Alliance and i am now, I think it's my 18th year working for the Alliance in Wales and I cover up all aspects of our work.
00:03:40
Speaker
um It's just me in Wales, but I am heavily supported by our political media and campaigns team and the rest of the team in London. We are overall a small team. um So I will say, I think, um you know, we,
00:03:53
Speaker
you you get your pound of flesh out of us sort of thing, I'd like to think. So we're a small and very, very committed team. But the decisions um fall on my lap, really, for what I undertake in Wales as long as they align with head office policy.
00:04:09
Speaker
So this um this particular piece of work was something that was brought to my attention initially and then has become the the wider subject then for us. Rachel, I know you're a ah farmer at at home and and therefore, you're immediately you're balancing different working lives. and You mentioned that it's a small team in the in the Countryside Alliance Wales office. and so This report's pretty punchy. You're you're definitely and As we say, sort of punching punching above your above your weight.
Findings on Welsh School Chicken Sourcing
00:04:39
Speaker
Just to summarize it for and for for the listeners, and this is a report into the procurement of um of chicken and chicken products in school meals in Wales. But you want to just give us your headline findings?
00:04:54
Speaker
Yeah, sure. So this was brought to my attention sort of last summer and it was confirmed then, I think it was the 23rd of September, Jenny Rathbone, the Labour Senate member for Cardiff Central, she brought it to the floor of the Senate where she she said that we need to clean up our procurement of food for school meals and stop importing chicken from Thailand and palm laden vegetables.
00:05:17
Speaker
And processed food. So at that point, I thought, now something has to be done. It has to be done. And so after much discussion with colleagues, because, you know, I'll put my hand on my heart, but, you know, the the chicken meat industry is is not something that I'm completely up to speed with. But what ah what I am up to speed with is government policy.
00:05:38
Speaker
And when we've got a Welsh government telling us in Wales that they are doing all they can and pushing and promoting the consumption of Welsh food and supporting our farmers and giving children, you know, and free school meals and that they're sourcing as much Welsh produce as possible.
00:05:58
Speaker
When you scratch the surface of all the talk, It's not happening. It is not happening. And what Jenny Rathbone did is gave us the opportunity really then. She gave us the the subject head of the meeting discussion, the chicken, to to take that forward to start.
00:06:15
Speaker
I mean, we haven't looked at any other procurement yet, but this is a massive, massive focus, particularly as a quantity of it. So how how bad is it then, Rachel? How bad is it? I think it's atrocious, to be honest. I mean, you look at the county of Merthyr Tydville, where over 99.35% of the chicken in their school meals comes from Thailand and China. Now, Merthyr Council have come back and said that this is only frozen chicken products.
00:06:40
Speaker
But that would also include things like nuggets, um sort of ah chicken and crumb or curry. So the majority of chicken, I would say, served in a food canteen, in a school canteen, is coming in as a frozen product anyway.
00:06:56
Speaker
And I know this because I've seen the menu plan for the for the school from my own child who's in a primary school. So I think that's an astronomical figure. They were followed very closely by Conway. 94% of their school chicken is sourced from outside both the UK and the EU.
00:07:15
Speaker
Gwynedd Council, 87.62% of their chicken came from Brazil, Thailand and China. And Cofilly Council, 87.32. And it just goes on and on and on.
00:07:26
Speaker
We only had Anglesey and Bridgend. And I think one of the Cardiff the carddiff Council, Anglesey and Bridgend certainly saying that none of their chicken came from outside of the EU, with Anglesey saying that 100% of their chicken is is British.
00:07:42
Speaker
So some are undertaking procurement practices that are what I call faithful to Wales and indeed the UK, but others are
Challenges in Public Procurement and Local Sourcing
00:07:51
Speaker
clearly not. Well, you say that, but I think the report, sorry to cut across you there, Rachel, but your report says that no one was able to say that they bought X percentage from Wales. We did ask for that specific. Yeah. okay we We did ask that specific question, how much of your chicken is sourced from Wales? And nobody could answer us, not a single local authority out of the 22 that we have here in Wales.
00:08:17
Speaker
but day nice Sorry, Tom, go on. I was going to say and it's it's quite amazing, really, because there is there is a ah you know ah fair amount of chicken that is produced in Wales. There's hatcheries, there's feed mills, there's processing factories. um There is product available. Yeah.
00:08:37
Speaker
Yeah, and it makes you wonder as well when you look out at at all the other elements that go into school meals as well, how many of those are British and how many are not? But I suppose that's ah that's a that's another thing to get into for another day, isn't it?
00:08:49
Speaker
what the I think i think it' having the statistics is amazing. I think you've done an incredible job of of asking the direct questions with the level of detail and and the you know the granularity to be able to put some, you know yeah as you'd say, Tom, some some shocking statistics to it. But I might have a slightly different view and say I'm not in the least bit surprised that this is the picture because we're talking about public...
00:09:15
Speaker
procurement. And i I'm sure I've read somewhere in recent history that that even the Houses of Parliament with with the you know the claims of support for um nationwide farmers ah ah also are challenged on their own procurement. So to see that and on a regional level, it's a pretty consistent message. you This is just the tip of the iceberg, I would imagine. And um you know there there are there is this natural tension, isn't there, between public raising public money, which um which can only come from taxation, and saving public money, which means economizing and making compromises on on ah on other things. And this is this is really the manifestation of that. I i think there's a point in in the report to do with the necessity or the or the expectation of transparency. And I think it's a really interesting discussion as to
00:10:11
Speaker
um how much information that we as consumers or that we as parents, in this case, worrying about the the well-being of our our our children and the food that they're eating, as well as you know the farms that that could be producing what they ought to be eating, um you know how much information ought to be available in the in the public domain. That's a very, very interesting discussion. And of course, as is the public procurement um decisions to be made. But and but I ah suspect that this looks a lot like a hospital procurement and council procurement and every other public office procurement where you know the people that are managing those budgets face very, very difficult decisions. and And ultimately, in the case of chicken, but as true of so many foods, we're much, much less than self-sufficient. So imports are an inevitability, assuming we don't wish to eat less.
00:11:07
Speaker
So one thing that what are you asking for going forward then, Rachel? So we're asking for um the frameworks by Welsh Government to be reviewed so that they can emphasise greater detail, really, how much Welsh produce the procurement officers should be purchasing to put on school plates. we We totally understand that there's competition here with retail.
00:11:29
Speaker
We totally understand the financial constraints, but some authorities are able to do it and other local authorities are not. And I just wonder if it's just simpler and easier to save a bit of money, tick the box off to get the imported meat onto the plates rather than going in for the UK.
00:11:45
Speaker
But we understand the competition. We understand that we we are asking for more chicken than what we you know produce in the UK to cover everybody. But however, as parents, if I go out to the supermarket and I purchase chicken and I'm looking at the labels, whatever I buy, i am making an informed choice.
00:12:04
Speaker
When it's just put into your children's school meals and that hasn't been a transparent process to tell you exactly what our kids are eating, then our kids are not making that informed choice and neither are we as parents.
00:12:16
Speaker
So I think that what we're what we're calling for from Welsh Government is an urgent review of the frameworks. and to make sure that sourcing Welsh produce is a key priority, not just that paper exercise and makes it look good um in the press and so on. And we're also asking for an annual report between the local authorities and Welsh Government to inform us as parents and indeed the public And what exactly is it our children are eating?
00:12:44
Speaker
Not just the chicken, but we're talking local produce. I know there's great projects about getting local veg to schools. That's the easy part. It gets more complex when you talk about, you know, bringing meat into the into the school menu from localities. and from the low from the look locality then. But that's what we're calling for. We want a decent set of frameworks that emphasizes on the procurement of at least British produce and that annual report that we know exactly where our food is coming
Environmental Impact and Policy Attention
00:13:13
Speaker
from. And the other thing we want to look at here, really, what we should be looking at is that under the new sustainable farming scheme in Wales, we are told that you must plant X amount of hedgerows and X amount of trees is desirable to offset the carbon emissions of agriculture and to reduce and you know the effects of climate change.
00:13:32
Speaker
There's total hypocrisy when we are flying food in from the other side of the world. I just feel like it's all a little bit lazy, really, and that we need to up our game in Wales considerably so that we are feeding our children on produce that we can actually and supply here in Wales and and indeed across Britain.
00:13:53
Speaker
And I said, you know, we understand the competitive element. Then I'm afraid, you know, Welsh Government spend money on lots of other vanity projects. I think they need to come back to their school meals and have a serious look about what they're paying for.
00:14:06
Speaker
I think there'll be lots of people listening to this who um equally recognise that contradiction between you know public message and public public action and and welcome the supportive tone that you're providing. i Can I ask a question about a report? We should say to anybody listening, if you want to read the full report, then, then Richard, it'll be accessible on the on the Countryside Alliance website, and I presume. Yes, it's there already. And we'll put a in. And the full data set is there as well for every local authority that responded.
00:14:40
Speaker
It's all there. Yeah, i had a couple of questions about about the data set. So um you listed in the questions to the authorities, if they were buying um British or even Welsh, to what standard was it being produced? And I wondered if people had given any context to whether it was ah RSPCA assured or, um you know, Red Tractor or or any other assurance scheme and and what you could tell us about that.
00:15:06
Speaker
Yes. So many of them who came back and said that they were buying British said that it was up to the red tractor standard. So we are very pleased to to see that they are you know looking and and addressing or recognising the standards here in in the UK.
00:15:23
Speaker
A lot of them that came back, I think, you know, to be perfectly honest, the tone was... thanks for asking this question type of thing. the The information came across very willingly, apart from one local authority in Ceredigion who had absolutely no idea apparently where their chicken comes from.
00:15:40
Speaker
However, some of them went into quite great detail and um even mentioned the fact that they understand that there's competition with retail. But some the um The overall tone of the root of the return responses were you know so precise in their quantities as well. They wanted us to know, I think, what what they're up against.
00:15:59
Speaker
Yeah. You mentioned in the report that um Welsh Government have have increased funding into universal primary free school meals by a total of 8 million, and which has translated into an increase in the value per meal to £3.40. But I wondered what the... starting point was before that 8 million, what was the equivalent £3.40 number? So how much have we added to the cost of a meal? And then how much do we need to add to the cost of a meal in order for these um councils, these boroughs to be able to afford to buy domestically produced meat?
00:16:39
Speaker
There's some figure around about eight pence per meal or something like that that they've added to the to the budget per child. But I'd have to look that up, to be perfectly honest with you. I wouldn't like to give that that figure out because it's not something I'm 100% confident on.
00:16:53
Speaker
um I mean, that really is a question for for the team at Welsh Government on how they can use their figures and indeed their suppliers. What are the suppliers taking out of this as well? Everybody has to make money, but how much of a profit margin is there?
00:17:08
Speaker
I don't know. So that's an area that that we are um not fait with, but it's obvious that they're still struggling. by to provide the free school meals and food from this country, if that's the case. And this is where we come back to the frameworks and the nitty-gritty decisions that are made at that Welsh Government level, which are then transported down to local authority.
00:17:33
Speaker
This is where we need an urgent and major review. Because they hold the answers to those questions, I feel. And they also hold the ability to improve on what they're getting, as in cost per child.
00:17:48
Speaker
Well, thank you ever so much for your time, Rachel, and for talking to us today and for bringing this very interesting piece of research to light.
Political and Financial Aspects of Sourcing Local Produce
00:17:56
Speaker
um Yeah, so I wish you all the best with with whatever's next, because it sounds like there's a few other things to look at as well on the back of this. Absolutely. I mean, this has had huge cross-party political attention this week. We had a member of the Senate asking about the... um Welsh Government's policy on sourcing local, to which the Minister agreed with Kevin Campbell, who asked the question, that he too was concerned about the amount of imported foods coming into the country. So this is just sort of the the start now of the political journey to see where we can make positive changes, working with the current government and indeed the next government, because we have an election here in May. So from March 26 onwards, it would be tools down into PIRDA and then all the all the parties vying for that seat in Cardiff Bay need to make public procurement and the sourcing of Welsh and British produce, one of their main asks going forward for next year. it's It's something that we're looking forward to working with to to make sure that we can get positive change.
00:18:58
Speaker
Well, we wish you the very best of luck. And again, thank you for joining us, Rachel. Oh, thank you very much for asking. Truly very grateful. Thank you. Well, that was very good, wasn't it, Tom?
00:19:10
Speaker
Yeah, what did you make of that as the chicken man, Tom? What's your what's your take home on that? Well, I think it's fascinating. I think when you shine a light on on an area such as this, what what actually is there? Because actually, if we we we think about public procurement, we know that um you know public finances are under a huge amount of pressure.
00:19:33
Speaker
I'm um um'm a school governor at a school, and so I know how difficult it is trying to balance school budgets. And particularly if you're a a small school or a rural school, our school that I'm a governor of has has only got 45 pupils and we're in the countryside. So actually getting food to those children um is is difficult and is expensive. you know we say It gets brought in with a van um and it's quite an operation to make sure it's there hot and ready and nutritious for the children um when when they want to eat.
00:20:05
Speaker
um But Yeah, but I guess you know that probably these catering companies, they're not people aren't going into school catering to to try and make their millions, are they? um So it's not necessarily a surprise that the product is getting sourced probably from from from the cheapest place it it can be.
00:20:26
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I would imagine that there could be two distinct reactions to people listening to to you know Rachel and and reading the Countryside Alliance. And I should say, to start with Countryside Alliance, I i wouldn't have expected them to be doing this report. you know I'm used to used to reading um you know campaigns supporting you know rural endeavours, country sports, ah not so much food. So I think they should be absolutely lauded for doing the work that they've done behind this. And you can tell just how much um you know passion and and genuine interest there is from from Rachel in in in our conversation that we've had with her.
00:21:06
Speaker
and So absolutely celebrate the work that that that they've done. But you know on one hand, I can hear um ah a farmer, a grower, a producer in in my ear saying, um this is absolutely right. This is common sense. And it's ridiculous that it is so difficult to get anything done, you know whether we're talking about Welsh government or and NRW, I might be inferring there, um or and it would be true elsewhere in the country as as well.
00:21:34
Speaker
And of course, our um ah public procurement should be centred on a UK first, if not a more regional approach to to to food.
00:21:46
Speaker
um and And that also should be to the benefits of the producers of that food. That, of course, makes sense at at at face value. And then I can think at the other end of the, well, really of the supply chain, whether they're listening to this from a retail perspective or in in the in the world of processing, packing,
00:22:04
Speaker
um thinking, well, yeah, the world isn't quite as straightforward as that. You know, we eat. I don't know how the carcass balance in in chicken today sits. You'll know better than me. But I would imagine, you know, the equivalent of an eight breasted chicken. You know, we've got an insatiable demand or appetite for um and for for this for this food. And of course, the the planning constraints that referred to already are of are with some um reason. and um you know ah money money matters. Money matters to an awful lot of people. I actually have.
00:22:38
Speaker
um the Try Some Chicken episode that we recorded um with the University of Southampton guys, was it Paul and Pippa back in September, sort of in in my in my mind thinking, you know, they were raising some really interesting points about um affordability and and and the commercial chicken world and and and how you kind of square the circle of what's good for people, good for good for the planet and um yeah this sort of feeds in into that there is inevitably going to be some compromises and some tensions along the way and and kind of transparency is um is is is part of that and but i think as well given the context of
00:23:20
Speaker
the political discussions that been going on for the past 12 months about the state of public finances, how much money councils are getting.
Public Education on Food Origins
00:23:28
Speaker
um And so if you looked at you could look at schools, couldn't you? And you could say, you asked the question, didn't you? If we were to source British or we were to source wealth,
00:23:39
Speaker
how much more expensive would ah would a school meal need to be in order to to to to get chicken from UK farms? um And the truth is we we don't really know, but actually if you then extrapolate that out into other ingredients or you extrapolate it out to to other ah public sector procurement, you know, looking at hospitals, looking at prisons, et cetera, then i suspect that number could be fairly eye-watering, probably...
00:24:08
Speaker
maybe not quite as eye-watering as as the cost that's just come through for refurbishing the House of Commons, which I think is sitting at 40 billion at the moment. This is a different podcast we're starting to record here, and I'm going i'm going to take us away from that, and I'm going to take us back to... For me, the central word is education. I think that this this um this report is fantastic.
00:24:29
Speaker
And for me, what it what it asks is, do we know about where our food comes from? And and then to that end... Do we know how it was produced, how it how it got here? And there's a reminder that,
00:24:42
Speaker
um us this is my perspective, that as a nation, we have completely lost our way with the connection with our connection to food. and And education is absolutely central to repairing that.
00:24:57
Speaker
and the The meals that we prepare in the home, we ought to be doing with um you know full consciousness, knowing what we've bought, knowing where it's come from and and and and preparing it however we we want to And um education should allow us to apply a little bit more thought and a little bit more scrutiny to what it is that we eat when we're outside of the home, whether that's in a public place or we're dining outside in a restaurant or what have you. I think it's ah it's a very, very healthy thing to be inquisitive, curious about um about where food came from and how it was produced. and yeah
00:25:34
Speaker
Particularly with children's food as well. i think if I remember back to when my children were really young, people, well, not people, but parents put an awful lot of scrutiny into the food that their children are eating, particularly at a very young age, making sure that the provenance is absolutely as good as it can be. I think there are far more um organic sales for ah for baby food and stuff compared to compared to the the organic sales in the general population. So, yeah, it almost seems like a little bit of a contradiction, isn't it? That I'm sure some of these children would have been really well looked after in terms of the provenance of their food essentially before they went to school. And then actually now they've gone to school, all of a sudden they're getting food and and and a lot of the parents
00:26:21
Speaker
um ah might be quite shocked as to where it's where it's coming from yeah that that responsibility um for food is is almost delegated to the authority that is the school in the same way that you know other decisions um about the the well-being and the catering in every sense of the word for the children um are delegated and um Yeah, it's so it's a really interesting subject. I think we should say to people, um please do look up the report, the Countryside Alliance report, and um and encourage you to get in touch. Let let us know what what you think. We'd love to hear from you.
00:27:02
Speaker
um So, Tom, until next time. Until next time. Bye-bye. Take care.