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Episode 27: David Mark on Poultry’s Changing Culture, Consolidation and Governance (Part 1)
134 Plays2 months ago
Two-part special: Tom Woolman and Tom Willings are joined by veteran food technologist and consultant David Mark.
In Part 1, David looks back on a career that started in a Northern Ireland dairy co-op in 1979, moved through the marketing board, a stint as a McDonald's franchisee (from cleaning toilets to Hamburger University), liquid egg processing, and senior technical roles with O'Kane Poultry and Moy Park.
He explains what drives survival and growth in a consolidating industry: governance, compliance, and the institutional memory carried from businesses like Padley's (farm discipline and hygiene) and Dove Valley (customer focus).
David also shares how workplace culture has shifted - from smoking in canteens and meetings, and strict hierarchies and dress codes, to more open day-to-day leadership.
The trio discuss why board training matters if farmers are to play a bigger role in modern governance, and the importance of partnership: no integrator without growers, and no chicken without farmers.
They highlight one of the most positive changes in David's time: women moving from support roles into technical and senior leadership, influencing everything from factory management to HR and how people work together. Subscribe today to make sure you never miss an episode!
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Transcript
Introduction and New Format
00:00:15
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Poultry Network podcast. I'm Tom Woolman. And I'm Tom Willings. you alright Tom? you You sound a little bit under the weather. Yeah, I'm i'm in desperate need of some decongestant. um I sound pretty, pretty nasal. I'm going to try and keep my yeah my trusty tissues to myself for the duration of of this episode, or should I say these episodes? Yeah, yeah because we're going to do something slightly different, aren't we? um but time yeah You've been doing that thing again. You've been out and about meeting people.
00:00:49
Speaker
That's right. That's right. um Glad handing people and and and hobnobbing ah various establishments. And um yeah, one of the recent establishments, in fact, it was at um it was at the Southwest Chicken Association Christmas dinner.
Meet David Mark
00:01:02
Speaker
I was chatting to a gentleman, David Mark, um and we had a great big long chat about his career and and and all the sorts of things he's done in his career. um And actually, there were an awful lot of things that came that we thought, you know what, this would make this would make really good, interesting material for the podcast. So we've actually decided to do to do two episodes with David. So welcome, David, to to the podcast. Thank you.
00:01:25
Speaker
Very good to be here. yeah. yeah So have you have you listened have you listened to the podcast before, David? Oh, yes. Many. I don't think I'm 100%, but i'm I'm pretty well up with them. ah listen It's the beauty of being retired, David, of course. Yeah, yeah I have so much time. Yeah, very little else to do.
00:01:44
Speaker
I certainly listened to my ex-colleague, Aaron McKenna's piece, which was really interesting. But i've I've listened to many and I've enjoyed them. Yeah. So we thought, David, for for this podcast, really, um we would we wanted to talk about some of your personal reflections in terms of the poultry industry and what's changed since since you first entered it.
David's Early Career and Reflections
00:02:06
Speaker
um So you're you're consulting now, aren't you? um But I just wondered if you could tell us a little bit about some of your career, really. um Just a bit of a brief overview.
00:02:17
Speaker
Yeah, i I can do that. we We started to discuss and I was really reflecting back on my career because while I'm doing a bit of consulting now, I'm nearly retired. I'm not precious about it. I'll be 70 on my birthday this year.
00:02:31
Speaker
i entered into the work environment in 1979, working firstly in a small agricultural co-op, dairy
Transition to Liquid Egg Business
00:02:39
Speaker
co-op. like patrick moving then to the marketing board for northern ireland and working in that sector for eight years headed up by quite a large um site bangard areas and then had a bit of midlife crisis and uh i i started ah to was recruited by mcdonald's as a franchy franchisee i really yeah did that never knew that yeah i did one year's training which was really
00:03:07
Speaker
very basic you do everything from cleaning the toilets to cooking all the menu items to working on lobby to learning the finances going to hamburger university i have a lot of time for mcdonald's didn't work out for me and after three years i decided it wasn't for me but i have utmost regard for them and how to get back on to the corporate ladder again started doing some work in the liquid egg business in a company called Quality Egg Products, which at that time was a common ah was a partnership with Frampton's ah from Somerset and what had been the Gracie Egg business at Hill Hall in Northern Ireland. And we sold that business to
00:03:44
Speaker
ah Charles Crawford and Red Egg. eggs And that's now become the basis of the Red Egg business and what that's gone on to do. Fantastic things. I then worked, that was owned at that time by O'Keynes, Billy O'Keyne, O'Keyne Poultry. It's one of the four companies that make up ah Pilgrims Europe, poultry division, if you like. It started with Moy Park, then they then they under the the various companies, they bought Padley's. in Lincolnshire, Dove Valley in Derbyshire and then latterly,
Roles at O'Keynes and Moy Park
00:04:18
Speaker
O'Keynes. So i was I was head of technical in O'Keynes. I was factory based, I'm a food technologist by training. um
00:04:26
Speaker
um I was you know d dealing with customers right down at the the whole process level, a technical level, specification level. Very interesting time, four factories at that time, Ballymena, Fleming's and Ballymoney.
00:04:38
Speaker
Castle Nahan down in County Limerick, a small red meat processing plant. And I moved from that for a period to work for the Ulster Farmers Union, running a commercial business, um which was involved in sheep identification, but dealing directly with farmers, running a number of projects, sort of European funded projects. And then I moved to Moy Park 15 years ago to head up the Northern Ireland Growth Basis when they went for going for growth back in 2013 and that was an exciting time.
Industry Transformation
00:05:07
Speaker
i then for period in Moy Park I was customer support so I met Tom one time in Marks & Spencer some time ago ah and i you that was the whole agricultural bona fides of the business really working with the supermarkets got a lot of insight there with the likes McDonald's and
00:05:24
Speaker
m and s and so So I always think, David, um' I've been in the in the poultry sector for ah for just over 15 years, I suppose. So it's a relatively short period of time since since I graduated.
00:05:38
Speaker
And... and and' and i'd And I'd meet some of the ah some of the other people and and people would be talking about businesses that I've never heard of. And there used to be an awful lot of different businesses, didn't there, in in all sorts of sectors, whether it's in eggs, whether it's in hatching, whether it's in, you know, ah broiler processing, etc. um And a lot of these smaller businesses um aren't around anymore, are they? And yet some of those businesses that started up are now you know are now the the the great big household names, really. and so what What are some of your your thoughts as to why certain businesses have have have survived and have grown and why others have fallen by the wayside? I mean, a lot of it must come down to to to governance, is it, in terms of the way that these organisations are run?
Company Culture and Governance
00:06:25
Speaker
Well, at one level, I mean,
00:06:28
Speaker
For small companies, governance is an issue and we could cover that. But I think for, and I'll use the Moipark scenario as I understand it best. I still believe within that company, there are four veins of expertise and knowledge of institutional memory. Padley's business was very, very heavily involved in the farm side, had a real discipline of um tidiness and cleanliness and and disciplines on farm, almost a military precision. Well, I remember people saying to me Padley's farm staff had to wear shirt and tie, didn't they?
00:07:04
Speaker
Yeah, and I think, well, it was always Mr Padley or Mr David or Mr Stephen, but that was ah in a respectful way. and And they would have had an inspection once a year on farm level, and it was a bit like the Queen coming to visit you. Everything had to be perfect. And perfect and People in a way laughed at it thinking it was only a show, but in reality it brought the farm once a year. It's like a spring cleaning. It brought everything back. And that culture with that whole maintenance divisions in Padley is still runs through the organization.
00:07:37
Speaker
Dove Valley was very customer focused, very connected with customers. That's a strong part of what they do. you know Moipark itself in Northern Ireland works with a lot of smaller farmers, very much involved in specialty. So while those four companies are now one, or they're now Pilgrims Europe with along the pig side, all that heritage is still within those companies and they can all be respected within them. And I'm sure that's the same and in some of those other organizations, going back to Grampian,
00:08:06
Speaker
box to do whatever. So that's that's my experience. I suppose one of the points I was going to make was, you know, when I entered the industry, and okay it was a dairy industry, it was a very different place.
Changes in Workplace Norms
00:08:18
Speaker
Simple things like, you know, smoking. About half of the people smoked and people smoked in canteens. They smoked in changing rooms. And if you went to a meeting, everybody, not everybody, everybody had to endure the smoke. But you for other people now who, you know since the smoking ban came in pumps, could hardly believe that that was the nuance of the time. But equally well, I as a 22 year old with ah with my qualification was ah an assistant dairy manager. I wore a white coat. I was addressed as Mr. Mark. you know i had ah We had a different canteen. It was the same canteen and there was just a shutter dividing us. but they
00:08:59
Speaker
Staff in the creameries wore blue boiler suits or blue coats, and there was that differential. And all of that, that hi hierarchical thing has changed completely.
Maintaining Cultural Identity Post-Acquisition
00:09:10
Speaker
Yeah, and and and've I've seen that myself in my own career, you know, having worked for businesses that that have been amalgamations um and combinations of of different previous businesses. Yeah, you're right. you see You see very different approaches to hierarchy, to dress code, to...
00:09:28
Speaker
as you say, how how people of a senior disposition are treated and and and how they connect with people that would be on the farm or would be on the on the on the factory floor. it it's <unk>ve Even in my short time, I feel quite privileged to have seen those different those different types of cultures because they are different businesses that are so different when it comes to culture. And it's not always something you can write down. um you know it's you you you really have to unpick it and and look at what people do as opposed to what you know sometimes. i say I would say my my experience, you can feel it. you know you've got You talk about businesses that have acquired other companies over time. And and you know part of your first question there, Tom, was you know why does it happen? How does it happen? some How does some survive, as it were, and and others not? And I'd say to David's point, they arguably they all survive and they maintain where there is sort of geographic, site-specific development um distinction as to you know what the backstory is for a particular location the the culture doesn't feel very very different in those in those places you know there's still the kernel of identity as to what their what the original name above the door was and they and they they know what they were good at or um you know what they were renowned for and they're very proud of that um you know the the the recognition that that they were take take the padley example that they were
00:10:50
Speaker
disciplinarians or, or um you know, very focused on on detail or hygiene or whatever it whatever it might be. But you could i certainly might in my career, going through businesses where there have been acquisitions, you know, when you're in, um yeah you know, a certain patch of the of the company's the company's history. And I think that should be protected to a degree. I know that culture in in any large organization is is critical to to success and everyone has got to have the opportunity to thrive. But it's it's nice to be reminded that there's some diversity there to start with and and that those different sets of skills were um were appreciated.
00:11:35
Speaker
I think you know looking at some of these changes, as you say, when a new owner comes into the business and even within Moipark, there were a number of changes.
Corporate Governance Essentials
00:11:43
Speaker
I think for me, the the senior team coming in, if they at least stop and think before they decide what they're going to do to try and identify what are those strong points and try to work off that that corporate memory and take the best of it. And in many ways, you I think we've seen we've seen that on some occasions, on other occasions, things maybe have been thrown out that shouldn't have been thrown out. The other thing I think that does happen is companies get bigger
00:12:12
Speaker
There's obviously more money involved, there's more capital invested, there's outside input, and that does help to strengthen the corporate governance. Now we can get frustrated by it. you know SOX requirements and and all sorts of issues that, ah but they are important. And those are the things I think help keep those companies going to the next phase. um and And that's really, ah that's ah that's an important thing. And ah when we look at those older companies back in the day, people had all the right intentions, but you know,
00:12:43
Speaker
if you had one or two individuals who had a particular notion, there was no mechanism that actually kept them on the straight and narrow necessarily. So things like um like ah an audited you audit commission, your audit internal auditing, compliance,
00:13:01
Speaker
All of that really, while there's a burden at times, I think as companies grow, it's inevitable that happens and it's needed. And when I look back in part of my and the agricultural fear sphere, I look at some of those smaller organizations in Northern Ireland that didn't make it. And you look back and say, did we sit down and learn why they didn't do
Training Farmers for Leadership
00:13:20
Speaker
it? And I'm also, know, it's and In the poultry industry industry, you see it to a degree, but where we're trying to get farmers involved and farmer boards, I really think we have to invest a lot of time in training people so they can go onto boards and they can be productive. And I think there's there's ah there's a lot that can be done there. And I've noticed in Northern Ireland, that there's I'm... you know um'
00:13:43
Speaker
I'm on the non-executive director of the Livestock and Meat Commission. You know, that's appointed by the minister. you When you look at how these things come forward um and the the competencies that are required, it's quite hard to get farmers onto these boards now. They are very capable of doing it.
00:14:03
Speaker
What they need is a training module that will pick up those competencies. You tend to have them if you're coming from corporate life because you pick them up in what you're doing. You've served in internal audit committees within the organization. You've been in HR committees. You've been in HR appeals, et cetera. That builds your knowledge. And I think it it is is really important because as we talk about this industry, it's all about partnership.
00:14:28
Speaker
And farmers have to be seen that there is no... There is no Avara, there is no Moy Park, there is no Two Sisters without chicken, and there's no chicken without farmers. And it is that delicate partnership, and when I'm doing the consultancy work I'm doing now, that has to come across. May there will always be...
00:14:49
Speaker
Those niggly discussions around costing and benefit, etc. But generally, I think the industry is in a good place. They work well together. The relationships with the supermarkets, I think they've got long term relationships generally with the integrators. They want to be able to stand over their product.
00:15:10
Speaker
The work that has been done animal welfare and antibiotic reduction and you know the whole competitive backdoor work, et cetera, the industry is really focused on delivering a first class product, which is world class. And that only comes in that partnership piece.
Women in Poultry Industry
00:15:27
Speaker
Sorry.
00:15:28
Speaker
I was going i was go to say and then then another another big a thing that's really developed in recent years, i I think it's fair to say, would be the role of the role of women. And we've we've talked previously on this podcast about um women in poultry group. and um And I've even seen that in my tenure in the poultry sector, how when I used to go along to conferences, it was ah it was ah just ah ah a load of men with balding, a bit like ah myself and and Tom um in suits.
00:15:55
Speaker
um and and there'd be a handful of women there, whereas actually it's really pleasing to see now when when I go to events, um i'd I'd almost say it's 50-50 an awful lot of the time. you know We've got a lot of women, whether it's on farms or whether it's also in in in other industries, whether it's pharmaceuticals, you know whether it's supplying, um technical, and that sort of thing. so um yeah I think that has been one of the biggest changes throughout my career. When I went into like Patrick way back in 79, you know, yeah, there were some women there, they're in the canteen, they're packing butter, or they were doing secretarial work, or maybe working in the lab, and the slightly more senior, but basically it was it was completely male-dominated.
00:16:40
Speaker
You went to the board meetings, or as we had as an agricultural cooperative, you know, those big annual general meetings, No females there at all. It was completely absent. And those that did start to come through, mainly in technical, it was a difficult environment. Yeah, they could go in technical, but they were never going to be able to move into management. Now that changed over a period and that probably changed because I saw education change quite a bit, you know, agricultural colleges, the food science degrees, food technology degrees, um and women came through in that way and then they developed through the industry. But yeah, the industry I left, In my park that I left, i mean, we had a chief executive, Jan McCollum. We had Ursula, very much Ursula Lavery, very much power in the industry. had a finance director, but at all levels through the business management, you some of our factories are managed by very capable people who are women. And that has changed. And actually, you as a man in the workforce, you have to change your calibration. you I suddenly realized that I was opening doors because was a woman in front of me. I'm going, she's 30 years younger than me. She's physically more able to open the door than I am. What am I saying as I go to open that door? But I had been trained. That's what I'd been brought up with. But you have to think about it. What what was it saying? And what were was I part of this problem of not letting women go forward? So I'm delighted that in journey,
00:18:17
Speaker
That's a really positive thing that's happened in my career and I'm delighted to see it happen. And then do you think that the style of leadership or the the predominant style of leadership has changed or evolved, you know, ah ah along with this this change that we've seen in terms of, you know, gender equality in the workplace?
Evolving Leadership Styles
00:18:35
Speaker
Yeah, i think I think it has. I mean, I suppose one of the biggest areas that also changed is the likes of HR. Now, it's changed for for variety of reasons. It's changed because of legislation, because of necessity, ah because of health and safety, and all sorts of things. And that can be quite a complicated area and can be quite intensive. But yeah, I think you the empathy of the ah of the the mix of people running those departments has been helped by having you know a broader group of people.
00:19:04
Speaker
Yeah, I think it it has made a significant change and changes that you're not even totally aware of. It just becomes normal. And, yeah you know, I have two daughters and I like to see them going through their career. And, you know, and you start to realize that society has changed too.
00:19:22
Speaker
Rightly so. Everybody's expectations are male or female are entitled to them. And there can be, you know, really pushed forward to do what they want to do. And that's that's a good thing. Now, it's not all, it's not, it's not all sorted. I don't think, you know, there will always be those tensions and we've always, you know,
00:19:42
Speaker
yeah We all understand what goes on in society and issues we have with equality. But we you i think I think that the workforce the workforce that I was in and the company now was, was far ahead of many other parts of society.
00:19:55
Speaker
And yeah that's that's that's a great ah thing to be able to say. Yeah.
Conclusion and Future Outlook
00:20:01
Speaker
Well, thank you, David. I think i think we'll ah we'll wrap it up we'll wrap it up there. But um thank you very much for your reflections on on some of the changes that you've seen. um I'd like to ask people to to subscribe to the podcast if they're not already subscribed, because we are going to do a second episode with you, David, where we're at where we're going to be looking forward, aren't we? And we're going to be looking at at the future and about ah expansion and... and new new builds and new business models and and and ways that that all of us can can can progress on, um particularly on the agricultural side. So um look forward to to chatting with you again at that point.
00:20:36
Speaker
Well, thank you very much. I've enjoyed it. All right. Cheerio.