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EP 37 | Paul Flintoff: What Happens When Salmonella Hits a Broiler Farm
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In this episode of The Poultry Network Podcast, Tom Woolman and Tom Willings speak with North Yorkshire broiler farmer Paul Flintoff about the serious impact of a Salmonella Typhimurium outbreak on his farm.
Paul explains how a routine day-18 boot swab, taken as part of the National Control Programme, came back as a Group B positive suspect, with confirmation arriving six days later from APHA. By then, the birds were at an age when thinning would normally begin, so the delay added major feed costs and operational pressure. Once confirmed, the flock could not enter the normal food chain, and Paul had to organise on-farm culling, carcass disposal, cleaning and disinfection, and all the practical next steps himself.
A key theme in the discussion is how different the response felt compared with avian influenza. Rather than APHA taking control, Paul says much of the burden fell on the farmer to arrange culling, disposal, shed cleanout and future planning. He also warns producers that there may be no restriction on placing the next flock, so it is essential to stay on top of APHA testing dates, especially if medication or management issues could delay sampling and affect thinning plans.
Paul shares the lessons he has taken from the experience: tighten biosecurity at every stage, improve clothing and access control between farm areas, communicate early with processors and APHA, and plan for the worst as soon as a suspect result appears. He has since introduced day-one vaccination for Salmonella Typhimurium and says the flock after the outbreak was the best crop the farm has had, showing the value of a truly deep clean.
Sponsor’s note: This episode is sponsored by Kersia. Learn more about the Fumagri range here: https://www.kersia.uk/farm-hygiene/fumagri/
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Transcript
Introduction and Sponsorship
00:00:00
Speaker
This episode of the Poultry Network podcast is sponsored by Kersia, a global leader in biosecurity, hygiene and food safety solutions trusted across livestock production.
00:00:11
Speaker
Kersia's mission is simple, to invent a safe food world. Their science-led approach supports farmers, integrators and hatcheries in reducing disease pressure, improving hygiene standards and protecting both bird health and food safety.
00:00:26
Speaker
In Poultry, Curzia offers a comprehensive range covering farm-to-fork disinfection, water hygiene, terminal clean-out protocols and hatchery sanitation.
00:00:37
Speaker
And with the British Pig & Poultry Fair coming up in May, they're spotlighting their Fumagri Ultra Diffusion range with a clear message, stop salmonella before it starts. You can find out more and meet the team at the fair on Stand 6670, where they'll be on hand to talk through the technology and share best practice.
Meet the Hosts and Farmer Paul Flintoff
00:01:11
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Poultry Network podcast. I'm Tom Woolman. And my name's Tom Willings. how are you doing, Tom? Yeah, keeping well, thank you. Good to see you again.
00:01:21
Speaker
You too. We are joined today by farmer Paul Flintoff. How are you doing, Paul? Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me on. Nice to meet you, Paul. You are from god's God's own country, aren't you, Paul? That's right.
00:01:35
Speaker
Absolutely, where the sun always shines, even when it rains every day. yeah Is that Cornwall? Yorkshire. What?
00:01:44
Speaker
Yeah. But yeah, you're up you're quite near Thirsk, aren't you, Paul? North Yorkshire. Yeah, right right near, between Thirsk and York, yeah, is where farm's based. Yeah. Yeah, right in the centre of it, I suppose.
00:01:59
Speaker
So we we were going to talk to you about an experience that you've been through recently with regards to Salmonella, but you just want to start off by telling us a little bit about your farm and yourself and and what your setup is.
00:02:11
Speaker
Yeah, um I started in poultry when I was about 19, started working for Avara and well, I retired as as an assistant manager. Two years later, I was a farm manager on a brand new site, 240,000 birds. of A year later, I was an area manager, did that for four years and then decided to go back to my family farm, build a another shed which doubled the capacity of our chickens 60,000 and run that for myself I've been doing that for about four five years. dad stepped away about two years ago and was diagnosed with cancer. So yeah, everything was then put on me.
00:02:56
Speaker
But yeah, we've basically you upgraded all the old the the old shed and been doing it for about 10 years now. over that even.
Challenges with Salmonella on the Farm
00:03:08
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. yeah So we were going to talk to you about Salmonella um and and you've had some experiences recently that haven't been very, very nice and really we thought that it would be good to share them with a bit of a wider audience because I'm conscious that Bird flu is always in vogue, if you can call it that.
00:03:28
Speaker
And we're talking about it all the time at conferences and there's adverts out there and there's there's people talking about the risk of bird flu, what happens if you get it. ah And actually, most people have had some sort of contact locally with people that have had it and and people are really switched on to it as a risk.
00:03:46
Speaker
But I don't think necessarily people are switched on to the risk of salmonella to businesses. Not that salmonella is widespread at all. i Just want to make that clear across the yeah UK. it's It's very different to bird flu in that case. But could you just walk us through, Paul, what your experiences were and and and the crop that you had that was affected?
00:04:06
Speaker
Yeah, so it was about September time. We just did a regular salmonella test, part of the national control programme, so day 18. on broilers, we did a and a standard boot swab.
00:04:21
Speaker
I sent that off ah and then, let me just look, a week later, and i got a phone call and I know exactly where I was where i got when I got this phone call ah that said it's a group B positive suspect hyphemuria. Now at that point, um we have to send that away to the APHA for further testing to confirm that.
00:04:47
Speaker
and So we've already had seven days post-test, so we're at 25 days now, and then we've got wait another five days before we've got that result back to confirm that unfortunately it was Typho Muir.
00:05:00
Speaker
So what was what was going through your head when you took that phone call then?
00:05:05
Speaker
At that time i was chopping trees down. and What was going through my head? I was a bit unsure. I didn't really believe it, to be honest, because we had – I used to work in with the turkeys with the Vara and we used to get a few groupies, S Derby, Derby, some they've all got exotic names. and And, you know, I thought, oh, it must be one of them because, you know, I've had a groupie before and stuff like that. It can't be Typhineurian. So I did a, yeah, i was' wasn't oblivious, but I was a bit, I was calm about it. And then I started ringing the lab.
00:05:42
Speaker
We would tested it. I rang, every vet that I know within the industry and to sort of see what was the likelihood of this bean typhumurium after this suspect test had come through. it and which what what What age were your birds when you got this news?
00:06:00
Speaker
ah So they would have been 25 days old. Yeah. And we're normally thin at 28. Yeah. So it put everything on hold, really, in terms of your expected thin.
00:06:12
Speaker
um Absolutely, yeah. Everything just, essentially the process is that we can't come for any birds until you've got this this test test back, which is absolutely understandable. yeah Yeah, yeah. Because you're right, there are all sorts of exotic salmonellas out there that that pop up from time to time um with all sorts of weird and wonderful names. And as you say, in the cases, most of the cases that I've dealt with where farms have got it,
00:06:40
Speaker
most of the time you as so you was almost assume that it is going to be something exotic. And and when people say salmonella, start with you your ears prick up, but actually I'd say, yeah, nine times out of 10, it's something that is quite manageable and can be managed on farm um and and and through processing as well.
Managing and Processing Challenges
00:07:00
Speaker
Absolutely. The only two that i'm aware of that can't go into the processing is salmonella, tapumurium. but Sorry, they can actually go into it,
00:07:11
Speaker
processing. um As Salmonella typhumerium and Salmonella enteridis. and Now why I say that they can go into processing is because the restriction is not on the farm, the restriction is on the processing of these birds and probably
00:07:29
Speaker
Sorry, I've lost my train of thought. So, yeah yeah, because effectively, I think the the onus on the factory, and it's almost so onerous that it's that it's impossible to to meet the legislation when it comes to processing these birds. So effectively, if your farm has got them, then it's de facto, you know, they they they have to they have to go out of the food chain.
00:07:52
Speaker
Yeah, there's no processing plant in this country that... can adhere to the and regulations set by the NKJ. yeah Paul, what was the confirmatory process from the suspicion, day one, your first phone call, to you know the the the confirmation that you did indeed have ST?
00:08:12
Speaker
asked to well What did they do to do more tests? Yeah, so from my understanding, when there's a Group B positive and a suspect, you know, type me or am I right to it is,
00:08:23
Speaker
and The APHA, that's when they start to get involved and they can further test the the the type of salmonella to serotype it into which salmonella type it is.
00:08:39
Speaker
So ah the lab that I use and can group them and serotype certain ones, but for these special speciality ones, you know, the The ones that cause all the problems, but they need the confirmation of the APHA because they can do further testing. I'm not 100% sure how that works.
00:09:02
Speaker
But yeah, the APHA essentially have the gear to to do that. But they use the same sample. They didn't come back and then re-sample the farm. It was using the same original samples submitted.
00:09:13
Speaker
Correct. So from my understanding, salmonella is obviously a bacteria. So that they'd they'd grown the samples that I'd taken. in ah in a dish and then seeing that it's a possibility of typhumurium sent that dish away to APHA and then they they can confirm that.
00:09:34
Speaker
And then that's it. There's no sort of right of reply. Well, you know, there might have been a problem with the sample and can we take another from different parts of the house or a larger sample, et cetera. It's, you know, once once once that die has been cast, once the result comes back and it's, you know, adverse, that's it.
00:09:53
Speaker
Unfortunately, that's that's true. It used to be the case, well, not with Typhoon Mew, and with Typhoon Mew, that is dead, sir. As soon as that's been found on your farm, that's it. You know, we need to we need to start, but and I think that's right now for every Salmonella that you get. It it follows through, no matter even if you get a negative on your second test. I think that's out i believe that Salmonella is still positive, per se. Whereas before, i don't know how many years ago, you could ah retest and try and get a negative.
00:10:26
Speaker
Again, not with Typhum Urim or Enteridis, but with other types of Salmonella. Certainly in the laying industry until, I'm slightly clutching its drawers, but I'd say six or seven years ago, there would be you know the first test, exactly as you've described, would come back from APHA with with um confirmation of of ah positive presence. And then there would be a further test with you know either increased number of of boot swabs or X number of eggs or even some carcasses or some you know parts of carcasses went off for testing. And then that, what was used to be referred to as a confirmatory test, that was was arbitrarily without any consultation removed. And um yeah, industry very, very anxious that the National Control Programme was then
00:11:17
Speaker
you know, the the the be all and end all in in in testing. It was one strike and and the birds were out effectively, just as you're describing in this instance. so yeah So how long did you have to wait, Paul, then, between the first the first sample coming back and and and the confirmation coming through?
00:11:33
Speaker
So the first sample came back on the 30th of September septembermet ah with the serotype B suspect time from here, and we got confirmation six days later. So you've got another...
00:11:47
Speaker
it essentially, obviously, we know where this ends up. We've we've got to call the birds on site, ah but you've you've had to feed these birds for another six days. Yeah, it's not cheap.
00:11:57
Speaker
At peak stocking, you know. So they' they're going through a lot of food at that time. and And, yeah, it's if you could speed up that result, you know, the the the finances are obviously a lot better, you know.
00:12:15
Speaker
and And when that confirmation came through, Paul, did you know what to do next when when you when you got it confirmed that it that it was Typhum Murray and what what happened next? So ah between the suspect and the confirmation, I'd obviously made a lot of phone calls to a lot of people in the industry.
00:12:33
Speaker
And my vet, I will name him Richard Jackson. He was absolutely excellent. my My actual regional vet was away at the time. but Richard was helping me and he said, just plan for the worst case scenario.
00:12:48
Speaker
So in in them six days, we were ringing up, ah you know, the people who who could come and call them on site, you know, planning how we're going to wash these sheds out, muck the sheds out um um and make sure we do a good job planning maintenance.
00:13:07
Speaker
But essentially, yeah, just, And andm trying to get rid of the the the shed that didn't have Salmonella as well, you know, making sure and we can still process them and, you know, obviously better buy security between the two sheds once once week once we had the suspect.
00:13:26
Speaker
So, yeah, there was just a lot of phone calls. There was no, the APHA never picked up the phone until they confirmed that it was Typhon. Hmm.
00:13:38
Speaker
and And even then, it doesn't sound like it was treated like a case of bird flu, um where the APHA effectively take control. um You were very much left to work out yourself what what you were doing.
Post-Outbreak Recovery and Lessons Learned
00:13:52
Speaker
Correct. Having been an area manager of a site that had bird flu, you know we essentially just handed that to the APHA. They called the birds, they got rid of the birds, and then they said, right, come up with a C&D plan and helped us. This was what you're going to do with your birds.
00:14:07
Speaker
And I was like, well, what can I do with them? Because as far as I'm aware, i remember this conversation. This was how it exactly went. And as far as I'm aware, I've got to kill them. And he goes, no, you can process them. The processor's got to stick to the regulations. I says, okay, is there a processor that you can name? And says, no, it's up to you to go find one. So I thought, oh, there's a bit of hope here. So I started ringing around a few processors. Obviously, no one's interested. The regulation is so stipulant on the process.
00:14:36
Speaker
on the processing line with salmonella typhum urium and into it, it's that it's essentially impossible in this country to to process positive burns. So at that point, you know, we've we've got to kill them. So we we made the APHA aware that we were killing them, who we were using to kill them, how we were doing it.
00:14:54
Speaker
and And from that point, again, they just walked away and waited till the deed was done per se. so So you had containerised gassing units arrive on farm and then carcasses sent away for rendering, I presume?
00:15:09
Speaker
Correct, yeah, the mobile yeah gas chamber. I put together my own catch team to sort of try and save on cost because if you've got normal catchers, they've got to be out of action for like three to five days, I think. So you've got to pay them for all that time. You know, I don't mind paying them the day's wage. I bumped up great, but I don't fancy paying five, six days wages when I put X amount of money into these birds already, if that makes sense. So, yeah, I sorted out my own team. And to to that team, thank you very much, because it was a hard day's graft.
00:15:45
Speaker
And, yeah, we did ah we did a very good job. And how difficult was the cleaning and disinfection plan to put to put together and to execute? So again, with bird flu, you have to submit a C&D plan to the APHA for approval before you start any works. This was just free reign. Go do what you want.
00:16:07
Speaker
So I took a lot of advice from Richard Jackson again, and one of his colleagues wrote a C&D plan for me. um So essentially, we steam cleaned.
00:16:19
Speaker
we We cleaned the the shed, then we steam cleaned it. and we used various disinfectants. we We disinfected the whole shed three times um with different types of disinfectant, obviously to cover all bases.
00:16:34
Speaker
i In that meantime as well, it was the oldest shed that we have on site, it's 27-year-old, it is very good nick, I've seen hundreds of farms, and for a 27-year-old shed to be as good as that one, you know it is good. However, the age of concrete,
00:16:51
Speaker
You know, it does crack. We had big gaps down the side from the dwarf wall to the concrete. I went along and filled all them in, you know, so there was a ah C and D plan along with maintenance of the shed, if that makes sense. So,
00:17:05
Speaker
so Yeah, again, no help from anyone apart from St. David's, you know, which I... But the site wasn't under a restriction at this point no in the way that a bird flu site would be.
00:17:18
Speaker
Correct. This is one thing that I want to make people aware. Hopefully no one will ever get Salmonella Typhum here because i don't I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But if you do get it, make sure that whoever you go for or ah the people that you deal with, there is no restriction on you placing your birds.
00:17:36
Speaker
you can place your birds as normal. The APHA come out at 14 days to test for salmonella. and that At that point, if that comes back as positive, then you will probably be restricted again in terms of your birds.
00:17:53
Speaker
Another thing i would like to make people aware is if the APHA have not rung you with at 10 days old of the next flock, make sure you ring them because i was a I was in a tricky situation where we needed to medicate the birds, you know, for ill health.
00:18:15
Speaker
So I did a salmonella test before the APHA had rang me. You know, obviously we can't do a test during medical treatment. Told the APHA I put treatment in, should be okay to do on this day.
00:18:27
Speaker
They came to do it, and then realized, oh no, we've got to wait another five or six days before we can do it again. And then we got to wait another five or six days for that test to come back. Turned out we didn't we couldn't thin until 32 days once this was on same back. Obviously, that causes overstocking or potential overstocking you know issues if you aren't prepared for it. So it's just...
00:18:53
Speaker
Yeah, if you do get it, maybe just be a bit more on the ball than than I was. Again, the APHA, in my eyes, should be on the ball. but they I guess it's the onus is on you, isn't it, to communicate and to organise and all that sort of stuff. And and there's not yeah there's no one necessarily that's going to be holding your hand, whether that's the government through APHA or um yeah whether it's other people. yeah Yeah, but I mean, my communication with the APHA was, oh you know,
00:19:20
Speaker
You're coming out at 14 days. This is the date of 14 days. And then I didn't hear anything. But i still presumed they were coming at 14 days. So, you know, obviously just wait and wait and wait. Didn't turn up. Rang them. Oh, we'll come tomorrow.
00:19:34
Speaker
Okay, that's fine. But I need to put treatment in. Oh, well, we can't test then for another X amount day. You know what the broiler lifecycle like is, you know, it's fast. if you miss a day and with ill-birth... There's not much space for inconvenience or unexpected kind of intervention.
00:19:51
Speaker
Absolutely, yeah. And that's his what we were going through. And what what have you done to protect yourself, protect your farm and your business going forward then, Paul, to make sure this this doesn't strike again?
00:20:04
Speaker
So we now vaccinate day one for salmonella, tafumuria, and that That is our main insurance policy. We are looking into insurance.
00:20:15
Speaker
I've been told it's not going to be that much because it's so uncommon. you know that This is such an uncommon thing to happen to someone. But if it does, I just want to make people aware.
00:20:26
Speaker
ah My biosecurity has gone up tenfold. you know I'm so wash hands, sanitised. I know we should do this every time. i don't believe every single farmer in this country does do that every single time. But changing clothes between the farm and the chickens, you know, just something as simple as that.
00:20:49
Speaker
The wellies were already in place. Obviously, we had farm wellies. We had other livestock wellies. We had ah wellies for the chicken concrete and then obviously wellies for each shed. You know, the wellies were covered. It was the clothes possibly please and that it's come in from. I've put a new security system in.
00:21:08
Speaker
to stop any randomer just walking into the the chicken sheds. ah Not randomer, you know. Stop my dad going in and out. But but it's just another step.
00:21:23
Speaker
You've got to think before you open that door, you know. Hmm. Hmm. I wonder if, you know, the all six day wait for the for the confirmation to be received. I wonder how many false positives there are, how frequent the, oh, it could be this, just hang on and we'll come back to you because it feels like that six day period of, you know, feeding the birds and having to just keep up with, as you say, the cadence of the life cycle is so valuable in retrospect when when ultimately the birds have got to go. You're absolutely right. There was a case, I spoke with a vet that i
00:21:58
Speaker
had a lot of work with whilst I was an area manager and she had a case of a group B suspect once and she was able to sort of say to the APHA this is not Typhoon Unit this is going to be an Agona or an S Derby as stated earlier pretty sure they're both group B's and she was able to pinpoint that ah she she was one person that sort of put the nail in the coffin in terms of saying they would have probably been able to see that it wasn't Typhumurium.
00:22:34
Speaker
and Whereas they can't just say that it's Typhumurium if that makes sense, when it looks like it, because it could be one of these other the ones. Yeah.
00:22:46
Speaker
Yeah. if If that could be sped up, like you say, ah I did do the costumes and per day fee, It's a so substantial amount of money at that age of birth.
00:22:58
Speaker
So if we were just going to round up then, Paul, what would your key takeaways be for other farmers that are listening? ah Keep your biosecurity at pinpoint at all times, obviously.
00:23:10
Speaker
and Communication with the APHA.
00:23:15
Speaker
They might not helpful, you know massively helpful with the salmonella case, or certainly in my case. um but just make sure that they are going to come on the day that they come and stuff like that. And and make your processor aware that if you've got it, obviously they need to be aware that the restriction is not on you, it's on the birds.
00:23:36
Speaker
oh So, you know, it's just communication and by security essentially. Mm-hmm. Very good.
00:23:47
Speaker
All right. Well, thank you for chatting to us, Paul. It's been great to talk to you and yeah, and I hope things are going better now. Yeah. Thank you very much. We've had the best crop we've ever had by a long way after, straight after the Salmonella, so we can't come back. That's what a good, a good deep clean will do for you. Yeah. It's amazing, isn't it? So yeah, hopefully, hopefully that keeps going, but yeah, no, thank you very much for having me. And if I can help one person, that's, that's the main, main purpose of this. Thank you.