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EP 01: What Law School Didn’t Teach Me: Real Lawyering & Building an In-House Career
9 Plays18 days ago
In the first episode of the newly rebranded Beacon Voices, Akshay Verma, COO of SpotDraft, speaks with Product Counsel Flora Kontilis, about building a modern in-house legal career. Flora shares how working in sales ops shaped her approach to lawyering, why law school was a means to an end, and how mentorship and small teams accelerate real learning. The conversation breaks down what product counsels actually do: operating in gray areas, partnering with product teams, and navigating regulated environments. They also discuss career stagnation, growth mindset, and how AI is a tool to support judgment, not replace it.
Read detailed summary:
Topics:
Topics: Introduction: 00:00
Why Flora chose law school: early motivations, prestige, and evolving definitions of success: 05:09
Pre-law-school experiences: Capitol Hill, journalism, and the wine industry: 08:58
Lessons from sales ops: empathy, urgency, relationship-building, and “getting to yes.”: 11:00
Flora’s law school reality: difficulty, mindset shifts, internships, and finding purpose: 19:40
Why practical experience mattered more than grades and how internships shaped her path: 21:59
First in-house role at Vendavo: mentorship, training, and learning by doing: 29:40
Knowing when to move on: stagnation, personal change, and leaving Vendavo: 38:37
Joining Asana and Axiom, working with Google: scale, contracting models, and risk exposure: 40:00 Transition to AppFolio and moving into a product counsel role: 48:52
What product counsel actually does: partnering with product teams and shaping decisions: 51:36
Learning regulated environments: insurance law, licensing, and NAIC frameworks: 53:06
Learning to Think Like Product Counsel: Curiosity, Context, and Judgment: 55:01
AI in legal work: when it helps, when it doesn’t, and why judgment still matters: 01:02:01
Closing reflections: advice to her law-school self, long-game thinking, and becoming self-sustaining: 01:07:33
SpotDraft is a leading contract lifecycle management platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues. Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.
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Transcript
Challenging Law School Experiences
00:00:00
Speaker
I am one of those people that personally did not enjoy law school. But then I found, i remember hearing a quote during law school that if you don't like law school, you end up liking your career. And vice versa, if you liked law school, which means you're probably doing really well, they probably have like amazing big law jobs and are making yeah the money.
00:00:19
Speaker
So yeah, I found law school very challenging for all the reasons that other people find it challenging. Wait, okay, let's talk about that for a minute. Are you telling me that law school did not give you any practical experience? I i personally don't think so. Well, some classes did.
00:00:37
Speaker
So let's let's switch gears in the conversation to to kind of your first in-house gig. What was that like? Did you feel prepared? Was it what you thought it would be? How did that evolve for you? Let's start there.
00:00:49
Speaker
I sort of think that like in terms of training, that was the best training ground for me versus law school. You know, you learn certain skills in law school, but that was for me the most beneficial in terms of skills and training and um that apply to my life now to this
Introduction to Beacon Voices Podcast and Flora Contilis
00:01:08
Speaker
day. From the lens of your 10 year self from now, looking back, what do you hope that that person sees about you over the next 10 years?
00:01:30
Speaker
Welcome, everybody. This is officially the first podcast episode under the new rebrand of Beacon Voices. I'm really excited to take all of the hard work and amazing branding that Tyler had done with The Abstract and take it forward with our new series of guests.
00:01:50
Speaker
And with that, I would love to introduce everybody to Flora Contilis, who is a product counsel at Appfolio for today's conversation. And Flora and I met actually in my first teaching gig, which was I think in 2017, recall correctly.
00:02:09
Speaker
I had put together a course at Santa Clara Law where I was ah where i graduated from. i put together a course on practical application of environmental expertise, like actually doing things and how to do things as an environmental lawyer. Flora was a student in the class, so known each other for about seven or eight years.
00:02:32
Speaker
Have kind of connected over the la that time on a variety different things, which we'll talk about. But Flora, welcome to the podcast. i'm Really glad to have you and and have this conversation with you today.
00:02:44
Speaker
Yeah, thank you for having me. And thanks for inviting me to be the first guest for the the new series.
Flora's Diverse Career Path and Motivation
00:02:50
Speaker
All right. And then look, to be very honest with first guests, as you saw, as we were figuring out our technical issues but on the platform for the podcast and stuff, like we'll just, we'll kind of see how this goes and and roll with it.
00:03:03
Speaker
um But i you know, the themes around this podcast, really line up nicely for for this conversation. You have done a variety of different things in your career. You've overcome some pretty tough challenges, ah both in law school and after law school.
00:03:23
Speaker
And here you are with this amazing career that you have kind of created for yourself. um So we'll we'll get into all of that. i want to talk a little about your early career first. I want to talk a little bit about your views on product counseling.
00:03:36
Speaker
um yeah it's ah It's a relatively new field or discipline within within the legal department. And when when I say new, like I'm talking in the scale of 150 200 years two hundred years of lawyers being around and helping helping clients. But this one's really focused on ah on a very special ah kind of approach to to lawyering, which I think is really cool, particularly here in the tech world that we all live in in Silicon Valley, but has applications outside that as well.
00:04:06
Speaker
um And then we'll talk a little bit about about life in general and how it intersects with our careers and how it gets in the way and how it enhances things and how it changes things.
00:04:17
Speaker
I was just telling Flora about how life just threw us a curveball this morning. My son woke up with pink eye. And so we had a really nice Monday morning to get back to school after the Thanksgiving holiday. And all of a sudden it's like, yep, he's going to be home. got to go to urgent care. Got to get the older one on the deck. It's just like...
00:04:36
Speaker
Shit happens and you got to just roll with it. And so hopefully nothing will happen on the podcast, but it'll be a point of conversation no matter what. Yeah, hopefully none of us get pink eye from this. No, I'm i'm like locked down. i told him, like he so after he came in this morning to tell us that he had it, he went into our bathroom and he washed his eye.
00:04:55
Speaker
And as he was leaving the room, i was like, did you use the towel? you Yeah, I was like, take it with you. It's yours Burn it down. It's so contagious.
00:05:06
Speaker
So contagious. All right. Laura, back to you. Let's talk a little bit about the early stages of your career. And one question which I love to ask lawyers because I think it's just a much more prevalent and relevant conversation and question to ask in 2025 than it may have been in 2000.
00:05:27
Speaker
Why law school? Like what what was it about law school that really drew you in What was it about being a lawyer that was really interesting to you? Yeah. um It's not like a terribly exciting, well, I guess maybe a lot of people can relate to this in some way, but I decided to go to law school probably when I was around, i don't know, 15.
00:05:50
Speaker
And it was honestly just because I you know like thought it would be a prestigious career path and wanted to have like a You know, an element of a certain amount of success, but it wasn't necessarily around money. i think it was all personal in terms of my own ideas of what success looked like at the time, which was.
00:06:15
Speaker
um Acknowledgement, admiration, recognition, giving away some of my Enneagram um characteristics here. Yeah. But yeah, so it was very like young, juvenile, ill-informed reason. um And then, i don't know, I guess just over time that stayed in the back of my mind. And once I grew up and experienced more things, it became more and more informed. um Went to undergrad with the idea that, okay, yes, I'm going to law school is always the path that I was going to take.
00:06:48
Speaker
And then it ah ended up taking time off between undergrad and law school and did a variety of things. And one of those last stints, I worked in a software company based here in Santa Barbara, formerly lynda.com. Now it's a part of um Microsoft, I believe, or now it's part of, yeah, Microsoft.
00:07:08
Speaker
um If I'm misspeaking on that, I'm not terribly up to date. But when I worked... Well, acquisitions are a thing around here, so don't worry about it. Even if it had been Microsoft at one point, it might be something else by now. Exactly. It went through a few iterations. yeah But at the time, it was lynda.com, one of the first bigger tech companies here in Santa Barbara. And I worked with the legal team while I was on the sales operation team. And that was where it really solidified, like, okay, yes, this is a...
00:07:34
Speaker
And now an informed decision of what I can do with a legal degree and a legal career. um So, yeah, this was all this was all before law school. Yeah.
00:07:45
Speaker
So I youre i would ask you did sales ops before you even had seen kind of the law school world. Yeah, before law school, I did a few things. i did an internship on Capitol Hill, and I really didn't like living in
Insights on In-House Counsel and Sales Ops Dynamics
00:08:00
Speaker
D.C. at the time. um Who knows, maybe it was like life chances or personal stuff, but felt like, okay, this isn't for me. Came back to Santa Barbara. I did journalism for a bit, um which I enjoyed and I think has helped inform the way I approach my life and my career still
00:08:19
Speaker
And then I wanted to get in the wine industry. So I did the wine thing for a while. And by that, I mean, like I went out to the vineyards with the winemaker and we were like testing soil and all as well as the fun stuff that you get to like plan parties and work in the tasting room. So I got to do all sides of that. that was like, it was really fun and now can be applicable to my personal life. Are you sommelier? Yeah.
00:08:47
Speaker
I wish. No, I can only do one terrible test in my law exam. a No, that's personal enjoyment. So, OK. And so it's kind of going back to your your sales ops world. Like, did you get a chance to work with lawyers in that role?
00:09:03
Speaker
Yeah. In-house counsel. what was that like? Yeah. What was that like? ah it was It was good. It was interesting. you know they it was part of, I think, if anything, and it formed kind of the whole ecosystem of what the sales cycle and that deal cycle looks like, meaning like how many people are involved in it because there's the sales reps who have their own personalities and agenda, and then there's sales ops. And so I think it was really interesting to learn all of our different kind of, you know, job titles, but agendas and personality traits and how they all played in our each each of our roles. um
00:09:42
Speaker
And that's where I also was kind of introduced to, like, the contract life cycle management piece. And, you know, just what does an in-house counsel lawyer do? And especially in a a deal cycle.
00:09:55
Speaker
Yeah. And what kind of an impression did you start forming of the in-house lawyer in that sales ops role?
00:10:07
Speaker
I guess like serious, important,
00:10:16
Speaker
um But also, so serious, important, but a team, like teammate and a partner, which is what I saw as a sales ops, it in my sales ops role as well, is that I sort of saw us all as, and I still see myself this way as in-house counsel, as like a I see my business partners as my customers. So I see us as like we're all here to be teammates and to further the same goal, have the same goal in mind.
00:10:51
Speaker
Yeah. And did you feel that that the the lawyers kind of shared that that mentality? And by the way, the reason I'm asking this is there is um there's this healthy and real like real tension between sales teams and lawyers anywhere. I mean, any any company that sells something where where sales folks and lawyers are involved, there there's this healthy tension. and Generally speaking, there is a healthy tension, sometimes unhealthy tension between between business teams and legal teams for a variety different reasons. we'll We'll get into some of that when we talk about the product counseling side of the house.
00:11:29
Speaker
But I'm just curious, you know because you've had that role, I mean, there aren't a ton of lawyers who are doing either product counseling or our commercial, um, commercial lawyers who've had the sales experience, who've been on the other side, so to speak of that coin with lawyers at the same company where, you know, yeah, yeah the they're trying to get a deal done.
00:11:54
Speaker
Like that deal is, has financial implications, certainly for the company. So both people are in line there, but that deal also has financial implications for that individual salesperson. Yeah.
00:12:06
Speaker
Right. And so the faster you get it done, the least amount of friction that needs to be, you know, that just that can be there is is obviously ideal.
00:12:17
Speaker
And that's not always the way that a lawyer will approach the situation. Mm-hmm. So did you, I mean, is that something that, you you're early in your career? Is that anything that you kind of picked up on or either back then or now having, you know been, you're now a lawyer and you look back on it like, you know what, when this happened or that happened back in my sales ops, like, this is the tension that I was picking up on. Yeah, no, that's absolutely correct. I identified that as in my sales ops role because we were sort of the gatekeepers for, yeah we call them bookings um in that role. I'm sure a lot of other people can relate to that. But um we were, yeah, the gatekeepers for the booking. So that meant like the number that you see in the Salesforce dashboard or that sales rep sees.
00:13:08
Speaker
And um I probably experienced that first in that role and then understood it. ah were was able to take that in once I was on commercial roles in as an in-house counsel.
00:13:22
Speaker
So yeah, there's definitely a a kind of push-pull and can have you can have that tension between the two. I guess I first experienced it before becoming in-house counsel but that helped me be able to apply it like once I was in-house counsel and was working with sales and working on deals I felt like okay I've been here I know what I know what's happening i know what you're freaking out about like I've done this rodeo with you or I've done this rodeo before you know like i I know I knew how to handle it I guess it was just a different set of characters
00:13:58
Speaker
what um What was kind of lets let's say yeah your top two takeaways from their sales role that you applied in your lawyering world as a lawyer working with sales
Empathy and Business Urgency in Legal Practice
00:14:11
Speaker
teams? What would you say the top two were?
00:14:16
Speaker
Oh, that's such a tough question. think...
00:14:26
Speaker
i think This may not be lawyering. guess it is. But I try to approach my work by being a recognizing that we're people first. And so I try to make that really personable connection with someone to the extent it's possible.
00:14:48
Speaker
um I sort of feel like that can kind of like dilute tension and so that they know that like, Hey, I'm your friend. I'm here. yeah We're just, we're just working something out together. And I guess that's what I tried to communicate first and foremost. And especially if I'm joining a new team, I'll communicate that as like, Hey, just let you know, I'm i'm on your side. i'm I'm not here to tell you no. um the answer is going to be yes. It's just how do we get to yes. I remember yeah one of my first, um, in-house,
00:15:18
Speaker
um, internships. that That's what the legal team was saying. Um, and I thought that's a really smart way to be an in-house counsel is, and often that's the case because, you know, for depending on the company, but lawyers aren't usually there to say whether or not the business can or can't do something or just there to tell you like what the risks are associated with it and what it, what the impacts are.
00:15:44
Speaker
And then you get to decide what you want to do with that. Um, So, yeah, I guess like that's probably the bigger takeaway becoming, creating that personal relationship.
00:15:55
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, look, in so many ways, i'm that I think that's such a fantastic answer. It has nothing to do with lawyering. You know, and you you kind of started off that way. has nothing to do with lawyering.
00:16:07
Speaker
And if you look at where you find the most successful in-house lawyers, you They are the ones that understand the importance of that relationship, whoever the business counterpart may be.
00:16:18
Speaker
The importance of that relationship drives all of the outcomes. Yeah. Because there are going to be times when you're going to need to meet them where they are.
00:16:29
Speaker
And then there are going to be times when they're going to need to meet you where you are. where like Maybe there's a chance. I don't know. Maybe there's a chance where I love what you said. How do we get to yes? But sometimes it's a no. Sometimes it's a no.
00:16:41
Speaker
But it's not your job to say that. And so if you have that relationship and you build that with them, then they come to that answer when it's really when it's really needed, which isn't often, but it happens sometimes.
00:16:52
Speaker
yeah When it's really needed to be a no, um then they're they're that much more willing to come and meet you where you are because like, hey, This risk is just way too high. It's not worth it yeah As much as we want to do this deal or as much as we want to roll out this product in this jurisdiction or whatever it may be, the risk is not worth it.
00:17:14
Speaker
But you've earned that the ability, the two of you or whatever that team is, you've earned the ability to do that yourselves because you invested in the relationship. Yeah. It has nothing to do lawyering.
00:17:26
Speaker
most Yeah. I think the things I think about that are the most impactful in what I appreciate from others and especially my one of my first um managers um out of law school or my first in-house role, it's the empathy and just like being you know remembering that we're people first, being an empathic person.
00:17:51
Speaker
contributor and an empathic leader are difficult things, especially in a leadership role. But yeah I think those are important. Anything else in terms of takeaways ah that you really wanted to share that you think have served you really well because you were in that sales role before going to law school?
00:18:08
Speaker
I think it under helped me understand. It helps me understand the, the sense of urgency, whether that is real or not.
00:18:19
Speaker
Anyone who's worked with sales can relate that there's, or I guess the business in general, but there's, you know, typically a, a sense of urgency with, with deal and even with sales. Um, and not to discredit it or discount it in any way, but,
00:18:37
Speaker
um that it helps me understand, you know, when I'm working with non-lawyers, especially if they're rolling something out or on the deal side, what is happening and ask specific questions around um like, okay, you know, like who are the stakeholders? What's the timeline? When does this need to get signed?
00:18:58
Speaker
those types of things. um But it also, i think when you work on those types of things, um now that I've worked in various roles, both commercial and now non-commercial roles, um I think it's important to kind of gauge the business's urgency. And yeah you're like, is it actually a fire or whatever? Because sometimes the business will change its mind. We can get down to that in the product council.
00:19:27
Speaker
peace but um especially in the sales role, that was like, yeah, everything, everything was yesterday. Not even now, like yesterday. Yeah. Yeah. All right. so um So, so kind of getting back to your career trajectory, you you were in the sales role.
00:19:45
Speaker
ah It sounds like it actually solidified your desire to go to law school. um And so now you get to law school. What was that? What were those three years like for you?
00:19:56
Speaker
Oh, well, you know, it I am one of those people that personally did not enjoy law school. But then I found, remember hearing a quote during law school that if you don't like law school, you end up liking your career and vice versa. If you liked law school, which means you're probably doing really well, they probably have like amazing big law jobs and are making money. Um, so yeah, I found law school very challenging for all the reasons that other people find it challenging.
00:20:29
Speaker
probably was challenging because I went five years later. So i was already sort of five years after and undergrad. So was already kind of, you know, solidifying myself as a young adult and kind of had to put a pause to my young
Perseverance in Law School and Career Goals
00:20:45
Speaker
adultness. Not that I'm not necessarily in like that I was partying or anything and you just kind of, you go into a cave, right? Law school is a serious absolute time dedication and you're not really connected to life the way that you used to. So that was really hard.
00:21:00
Speaker
um But, you know, I made amazing friends. i had, it's given me opportunities that I obviously wouldn't have had um otherwise. i I had to really work on my mindset and the way I approached it and had to make sure that like, Florida, this is a means to an end. I knew what type of career I wanted and law school, unfortunately, was part of that path in order to be where I am today. um so
00:21:33
Speaker
I'm happy where I ended up. I just would have liked to not have come through law school to do it. But you know what? That's the nature of all things in life, right? It is, and it's something you had to go through, obviously, to become a lawyer. And yes, I mean, there's so many individual and unique stories about law law school experiences and all of that, but but this one's yours, and that's that's the one that we're here to to kind of talk about.
00:21:59
Speaker
Was there any point in your law school time when you were like... um As long as I get through this three-year period, what's waiting for me on the other end is going to be well worth whatever shit I'm going through now in these three years.
00:22:19
Speaker
Oh, yeah. 100%. Like pretty early on. I remember talking to my therapist. I don't remember what year it was, but it was, you know, a challenging time. And she asked me, of course, like, well, is quitting an option? Which, of course, type lawyers who are type overachievers, were we go to law school for a reason.
00:22:42
Speaker
I was like, no, absolutely not. She's like, okay, well then. So quitting wasn't an option for me and I shouldn't, there's no down to quitting and everyone has to make their own choices for their own reasons. At the time, that's how I felt about it. But I, yeah, just looked at it like I enjoyed doing the work because I was able to have great internships during that time, um which ended up turning into one of my first roles after law school. So yeah,
00:23:15
Speaker
I just kind of had that light at the end of the tunnel of like, I just have to get through this because what's on the other end is something I like. And I'm just going through this until, until then. Yeah.
00:23:26
Speaker
Yeah. Like, I i mean,
00:23:29
Speaker
quitting is always an option depending on what it is. Right. I mean, that so I think from that lens, um, it's a reality that everyone grapples with in one form or another, but your point around who chooses to go to law school, um, that thought of quitting is, it is such a it's such a huge, like no, no in your head. Um, you know, yeah,
00:23:59
Speaker
and It has some aspect of like what other people will view it as and all. they It certainly has that. But so much of your own identity gets gets wrapped up in applying to law school and getting into law school. And then like that first year, man, i mean it hits you like a ton of bricks. That first year is is daunting.
00:24:18
Speaker
um And it's interesting, you taking time off between undergrad and law school, mine was very unintentional. um I was more like, I can't sit in the classroom right now. I just can't do it.
00:24:32
Speaker
And so I decided to wait a few. i had no idea how long I was going to wait, but I was like, I got to go do something else. So I look back on it now and my gosh, it was probably one of the best decisions that I've made.
00:24:44
Speaker
Because it gave me the ability to kind of recharge and get ready. And i ended up working at a law firm in those three years in between undergrad and law school. And so I kind of saw what lawyers went through and I got to work with them and all those kinds of things. And I was like, okay, yeah, I could do this. yeah was it was It was a little bit of a validation as well of of the choice that I had made early on.
00:25:07
Speaker
yeah But nothing, despite all of that, and despite what everyone will tell you, and I met so many people, especially in that year, that last year before law school, who were like, oh, they were lawyers. And they were like, yeah, that first year, man, it's going kick your ass. And I was like, yeah, whatever. It'll be fine.
00:25:24
Speaker
And then like, you know, two months in, you're just like, holy cow. That's a lot. that's a lot yeah i remember being talked a few people that did the same thing talked to people and was um frequently told that that to be talked out of it which yeah i was determined but yeah i think uh what you said about taking that time off um And now I'm really grateful for it because i I think it helped me really like the, like I said, like the work about it. And because academically law school was so challenging in a way that academics weren't before, you know. Um, so I really showed me that, you know, Hey, if I, I might not be the smartest or like the top of my class, but I am going to hustle and work my ass off. And this is the thing I'm going to lean on as my strength versus my grades, my academics.
00:26:26
Speaker
So that was something I used to my advantage as well from that time off. Yeah. Was there anything in law school that started shaping your desire on where what kind of law you wanted to practice or what you wanted to do when you graduated?
Transition to In-House Roles and Bay Area Influence
00:26:41
Speaker
I think it just confirmed what i thought I wanted to do. i had thought I wanted to go in-house. And then because I went to law school in the Bay Area, you know, it's a tech hub. Thankfully, there are a lot of examples of that um in that area and at that time, whereas before...
00:26:59
Speaker
When I would tell people I wanted to be an in-house lawyer, in-house counsel, i met people that had a more traditional mindset about it that said you need to work, you know, in a law firm first and then you go in-house and go, you know, take that very specific path. And in the Bay Area, that just wasn't how it was going.
00:27:21
Speaker
communicated. I met people that did that. I met people that didn't, people that didn't care and would talk about, you know, a lot of people that I was meeting in like networking and mentoring um situations. So I think it just more solidified that this is possible. And then I pursued opportunities and paths that would give me skills or like practical experience that would help that.
00:27:45
Speaker
Wait, okay, let's talk about that for a minute. Are you telling me that law school did not give you any practical experience? I personally don't think so. Well, some classes did.
00:27:56
Speaker
Some classes did. The non-bar related classes did. did but But even those, I mean, unless it's dedicated, there's few and far between, even now, even in 2025, Santa Clara law notwithstanding, like to be very clear, they've done I think they've done, and it's not a plug for Santa Clara law or anything like that, but I'm still very, very close with the school. I still teach there.
00:28:21
Speaker
They've done an amazing job of including practical application into their curriculum. Yeah. Courses that are designed to teach you how to lawyer. Yeah. Not just what it means to be a lawyer, not just theory and all those kinds of things, which are great. You got to know some of that.
00:28:38
Speaker
But how you actually do things as a lawyer. um That was for me. I want to talk about this in a minute for you as well. um When I came out of law school, i was an environmental lawyer. i didn't know how to do anything.
00:28:51
Speaker
Nothing. i to learn everything from scratch. ah And even like legal research and writing, you you kind of have to learn it a little bit newly for wherever it is that you end up practicing because the partners that you work with will have their own nuances and things to how they want research memos drafted and so forth.
00:29:12
Speaker
So yes, you learn how to do legal research really, really well. You learn how to look for cases, analyze cases, dissect them, get what you need out of them, and and make your arguments, which is the core of what many lawyers need to know how to do.
00:29:30
Speaker
But it's a very, very, very small part of what lawyers actually do, particularly on the in-house side. Yeah. So so let's let's switch gears in the conversation to to kind of your first in-house gig.
00:29:44
Speaker
What was that like? Did you feel prepared? Was it what you thought it would be? How did that evolve for you? Let's start there. Yeah, um it was amazing.
00:29:56
Speaker
i was incredibly lucky and sort of right place, right time. i sort of think that like in terms of training, that was the best training ground for me versus law school. You know, you learn certain skills in law school, but that was for me the most important.
00:30:16
Speaker
beneficial in terms of skills and training and um net that apply to my life now to this day. So I had, um through networking, met a woman, Jessica Shore. She was the general counsel at the time for Vendavo. um I needed, you know, an internship or i think I did externship credit.
00:30:36
Speaker
And so she is a like, gifted ah mentor, wants to be a teacher, wants to give back and take people under her wing. So, you know, we met and she knew I wanted to go in-house. So she was like, hey, why don't you come and be my intern?
00:30:52
Speaker
And i i guess I had some expectation or or some um understanding of it already. I had done an in-house role during my 1L, between 1L and 2L.
00:31:03
Speaker
So I had a little bit of familiarity of what might be expected. um so it was that and then some. And i mean, it was great. I did, because the legal team then was so, so small,
00:31:16
Speaker
It was Jessica. um She hired another attorney in the UK because it was a global company, um Sean, and she she was based out of London. So I got to work with both of them and both of them became my mentors. And um because the team was so small, I got We were more generalists and that meant like anything that came through the door. And the great thing about being at that stage is there's a lot more forgiveness and understanding that like, okay, yeah, you're a baby. You don't know anything. Like, where's Wilkberg Neal? So there's like time.
00:31:51
Speaker
you know It takes time to give someone to teach them and and be willing to let them fail and fall. and And Sean and Jessica both did that for me. And I was also given things that like I had no experience in, but they...
00:32:07
Speaker
gave it to me and taught me how to do it and then worked with me and explained stuff. And so, it was amazing. A lot of failing, making mistakes, learning. um But I think it by far was like one of the best choices I ever made.
00:32:24
Speaker
um But that was definitely because one was the experience I was having and things I got to work on. But then the mentorship and the training from both of them was to me invaluable.
00:32:37
Speaker
Yeah. I think, you know, this is still fairly true, although it's starting to become less true now. um When I was coming out of law school, there's really only one path. You go to a law firm. The law firm is supposed to train you how to practice law.
00:32:54
Speaker
Mm-hmm. right So they train you on how to practice law. And then you either stick it out at the law firm, you make partner, or you end up going somewhere else. Maybe you go in-house, maybe you go to government, maybe you go do something else entirely.
00:33:08
Speaker
But if you go to in-house or if you go to the government, then it's usually, you know, back then it was like, oh, you got to put in your time at a law firm, six, seven, eight years. At that time, it was universally agreed that that was enough time for you to be able to do the in-house job or for you to be able to do the government job so that they didn't have to train you.
00:33:29
Speaker
That was the thought. They wouldn't have to train you. But that was nowhere near the reality because law firm lawyers just think very differently from in-house lawyers, as I am sure you have experienced yourself.
00:33:42
Speaker
yeah Government lawyers think very differently from law firm lawyers, although there's probably a closer connection there. Mm-hmm. And so they end up having to retrain you or break habits and build new habits and do all of those kinds of things. yeah And yet here you are in your first real kind of in-house experience, ah getting the kind of training and mentorship that makes for success.
00:34:09
Speaker
What was it? Did you say her name was Jessica? Yeah. What was it about Jessica that made her that way? Why was it so important to her to do that?
00:34:20
Speaker
Oh, I'd have to not to like speak for her, but it I think that's so just an innate, very natural quality of her is um to to want to be a mentor and to be a teacher.
00:34:37
Speaker
and she is equal parts very tough very like challenged me scared the crap out of me sometimes but then equal parts like yeah it's tough conversation and then we had it it's done and we're moving on so that's what I mean and what I mentioned earlier about leadership, there's like definitely a leadership quality and then an empathetic quality that is challenging to balance. And she was able to do that. So one is that she had the interest in it and
00:35:15
Speaker
she had told me that it also requires the recipient to be willing to take feedback and do something with it. So I guess I was just also like a very willing student and interested and was just a sponge. So, it was it you know, it team effort for sure.
00:35:33
Speaker
um But yeah, I just think that's sort of who she is. and She still is that way. She still yeah forms the same way and has a another knee under her belt on her team um and you know took in a law student that became up an employee or just still does that type of stuff. And, you know, it's interesting, you know, going back to your point about the training piece, I had sometimes felt um inadequate for either not being the top of my class or not going to these big law firms like I was seeing people do or like everyone talked about. But then i was getting training from people that did do that and who were basically top of their industry and had excelled in their roles because Jessica went to MOFO out of law school. sean
00:36:23
Speaker
I'm blinking on the the firm she was at in San Francisco, but they both were law firm trained people. So they had that background. um And so I feel like I got the training just a different way, I guess. Yeah. i mean but And that's the thing, right? And I think it's not that it's not that in-house departments and and other non-law firm environments can't train lawyers.
00:36:52
Speaker
ah It's that it requires intention. It requires understanding the importance of doing it and then it then putting some kind of structure into place ah to actually do it. And ah Obviously, the student matters a lot.
00:37:06
Speaker
i think I think that that how quickly how quickly you learn something is so much more a product of of you, the student, than it is anything else, irrespective of what you're learning.
00:37:18
Speaker
um So all of those things have to go together. But... The training, mentorship, teaching piece, that has to be very, very intentional. and And I think we're starting to see a shift there. I think we're starting to see a shift in law schools a little bit in terms of practical application. And then you're starting to see a shift in in in-house mentality. Like, you know...
00:37:41
Speaker
If our fresh grads or our junior people that we hire on a legal team, if they can do these three or four things, that's enough for them to serve and be productive and be in these roles. And then we can put some, you know, good infrastructure. It doesn't have to be heavy. It doesn't have to be intensive, but we can put that infrastructure into place to actually help them grow and evolve and become more senior lawyers.
00:38:07
Speaker
The only reason it was like a, oh, it's law firm only path earlier on is because that's all that there was. That's all that there really was. yeah The in-house department is only about 50 years old.
00:38:21
Speaker
It's not that old. The first in-house department was half a century ago. Lawyers have been around for way longer than that. Yeah. So it's still a fairly new kind of um place to practice law.
00:38:33
Speaker
yeah But the fastest growing one on the planet, which I think is also really cool. All right. Getting back to your Vandalvo time, like um when did you know it was time to move on and and what did you move on to?
Career Transitions and Seeking New Challenges
00:38:45
Speaker
o i think I had been at Vendavo for five years total. that's That includes internship and then going full-time in-house. um I had started feeling, i guess, a little stagnant in wanted new challenges. um I was in the role for specific mentorship and leadership that was going through changes at the time.
00:39:22
Speaker
And so it just sort of happened organically with, you know, the way that our team, certain people were leaving on that were the reasons that I was there or like kept me there.
00:39:34
Speaker
And i was also going through a life change. um I sort of felt like five years, okay, you know, maybe I should be starting to think. I knew I needed to progress in some way, whether that was going to be Vendavo or not.
00:39:48
Speaker
And um i started looking externally, i guess, just to see what my options are and if something could happen. And um I was also newly divorced at the time.
00:40:00
Speaker
and had an opportunity to join Asana and that required a move to San Francisco. So sort of was like, you know, like new chapter, new time. Fresh beginnings. Yeah. Fresh kind of like, yeah, turning a new leaf and and adding um a new skill set or something to my my book, so to speak. So Yeah, it just sort of felt like it was time for the baby bird to leave the nest in a way. Like I had gotten a lot of great training and wanted to keep applying it and keep adding to training from other sources. And then, yeah, for personal reasons, reasons wanted to um geographically change my environment.
00:40:42
Speaker
Yeah. So and what role was it at Asana? Asana? i was on the commercial council team. Okay. Vosano was broken up into pillars, they called it at the time. And there were, um you know, an employment team, product, ah privacy, and then commercial. And you were very much like in your role when, you know, worked on commercial specific pieces when you were...
00:41:09
Speaker
um on that team or in your role. You did cross-pollinate a little bit with, I worked sometimes with the privacy councils um on various deals, but I mostly did commercial work or primarily commercial work. Whereas F&D was doing quite a bit of everything yeah with an emphasis on commercial um council.
00:41:33
Speaker
Gotcha. And so how long did you end up staying at Asana? Just about a year, just a year. Okay. And then again, kind of ah a time to make a change and kind of what drove that?
00:41:45
Speaker
Yeah, ah i was wanting more diversity like I had at Vandavo and wanted to be able to be, it helped me see like, okay, i I really like commercial work. It's fun. And I think that's where I do so far have done my best um thus far.
00:42:05
Speaker
But I wanted a variety. So I was a little under challenged and it was both career- career and personal motivation in terms of what I wanted my life to look like at the time, my career to look like.
00:42:19
Speaker
um And I had the idea. i don't remember where I got the idea from. Either I had my coach at the time or just by searching and came across Axiom, which is how you and I reconnected for yeah one of the second, third times.
00:42:35
Speaker
and you know, you put me in contact with your friend and I started having conversations to see what that would look like. And my first um opportunity was with Google.
00:42:47
Speaker
And I sort of felt like I couldn't miss t missed that opportunity. i was wanting to do something different anyways with my life and my career. And um I felt like I'm never going get a chance to work at Google. Yeah. this is the capacity i'm gonna do it and i honestly i there's the there it is there it is it's funny your dog exact that my wife and son got home so i heard him in the back there and too
00:43:20
Speaker
it's the the trash people of course yeah but he's a good guard dog Yeah, she is noisy. But yeah, so it was, ah again, like probably more for the experience. I wanted to have that.
00:43:33
Speaker
I wanted that experience. I felt a little stagnant, wasn't challenged so much. um I guess it wasn't quite what I expected. and so I wanted something different.
00:43:46
Speaker
Yeah. You mean at Asana or? at Asana. Yeah. Got it. Yeah. And did you find what you were looking for ah in the next move? Yeah. I mean, Google, what I liked about the transition that I did at that time was Vandavo being on a very small, scrappy legal team, smaller company, Asana, bigger company, bigger team, and then Google is Google, right? um I was in a contractor capacity, but it was still really informative. I think you learn similar to what you're one of your first questions is.
00:44:21
Speaker
My takeaways weren't necessarily just solely on lawyering. It was also on like, what is it like to work in a bigger company on a bigger team with very different risks and challenges than Davo would face? um So, yeah, it was an interesting experience for sure.
00:44:39
Speaker
And was this kind of the building blocks for becoming a ah product council, ah which is your current role at Appfolio? I think they all... fit together and informed my decision in that I wanted to be well-rounded and i didn't really want to be siloed as a solely commercial counsel even though funny enough like that's where I strive and do, I'm really happy in that capacity. But I i really wanted to have um variety and depth to my practice and my skill set.
00:45:19
Speaker
And I think that's important when you're an in-house counsel when in your house counsel, you need to understand the but the business holistically. And I guess that's what I... thought about at the time when I was looking at other non-commercial roles.
00:45:34
Speaker
And um I have hadn't had my eye on Appfolio for a while. they're the smaller team, a smaller company. So um there's not roles that come up very often. And I yeah wanted to move back to Santa Barbara.
00:45:49
Speaker
So it sort of was right again, like right time that I was looking and happened to be aligned with wanting to move back to Santa Barbara as well as wanting to um go into a role like this, which has been another like new definitely new challenge and very different from other roles I've done.
Growth Mindset and Professional Development
00:46:10
Speaker
Yeah. Before we kind of get into the product council world and talk about that a little bit, you said something that really kind of reminded me. um Inherently, I think inherently,
00:46:27
Speaker
99.9% of human beings, I'll leave a little bit of space for folks who are not like this without any judgment whatsoever. We want to be challenged in our lives and learn new things and grow.
00:46:39
Speaker
um i i look a lot I look at a lot of like health research, and especially I'm 49. I'll be hitting the half-century mark next year, and health and you know mental acuity and physical fitness, all those kinds, just matter a lot more now. So I've researched a lot of this. I would read a lot of this stuff.
00:47:02
Speaker
And one of the biggest mitigating factors for mental cognitive disease as you get older, things like Alzheimer's and others, is the ability and the desire to learn new things as you age. Mm-hmm.
00:47:17
Speaker
And so what they recommend for folks who start retiring or kind of start slowing down, pick up something new, an instrument, ah knitting, like whatever it is, something that you haven't done before that your brain is forced to learn.
00:47:33
Speaker
um And that is an incredible way to stay sharp and and and keep your mental mental acuity about you. And if you're inherently like that as a human being, which obviously you are,
00:47:43
Speaker
ah it's that much easier to do it. Like you're not, you're not like my kids sometimes. like Oh, why do we have to do this? like I don't really want to do this. No, it's like, hey, this is cool. Yeah. My brain and my body are telling me that I need to do something different. And I, and i was, I asked you this a little bit earlier, just to kind of sense where it was at. I was like, what was telling you that it was time to leave?
00:48:04
Speaker
And your answer lines up too, which is like it was time because my brain and my body, they were telling me that I needed a new challenge. This wasn't enough. It wasn't enough for me.
00:48:15
Speaker
and i think it's a really important fact, particularly for lawyers, particularly for lawyers, because I think if you look at some of the mental health statistics in our profession, right? you tend to to see a reality that is more reflective of being stuck doing the same shit over and over and over again.
00:48:34
Speaker
Yeah. And one of the best ways to not be a part of those statistics is to inherently being like that. or you And you can obviously, we we call, we use different terms like growth mindset and all those kinds of things.
00:48:45
Speaker
But to have that as a part of your career, but also your life, and we'll talk about that a little bit later as well. All right. I think product counseling is kind of the ultimate.
00:48:57
Speaker
um it's It's kind of the ultimate of of the growth mindset.
Role of a Product Counsel and Legal Frameworks
00:49:02
Speaker
And especially in tech, because there are no answers for the questions that get put in front of you.
00:49:07
Speaker
Often, there are no answers to that. um Talk to me a little bit about your understanding of what product councils Yeah. at the time that you applied for the position that you're currently in. And then I want to talk a little bit about just kind of the evolution of the role because I think it's a really, really interesting one for for law students and and lawyers themselves.
00:49:30
Speaker
whom um One, you're reminding me that I should pick back up on my Spanish classes later. Hey, yo, learn a new language, like the ultimate way to spark time.
00:49:43
Speaker
Yeah, I fully agree with you on all of that. um Now to get to your question, i I think that my understanding of the role is aligned with what what I found out that it is, where you are there to be a partner to the business so similar as other scenarios and other roles um and you're there specifically to partner when the business and by business i mean that could be the the business team making the decisions or the product team deciding to want to either add a
00:50:18
Speaker
very new product or a new feature or build upon what's already there or change something that's already there and understand, help the business understand what legal parameters there are to do that. um In our case specifically, we're heavily regulated Um, so I support the insurance, the insurance side of the house for our products, which is a heavily regulated industry, both federally at a state and at a state level.
00:50:50
Speaker
And then there's nuances within the state, within the city, within the county, you know, it's, it's a very granular, um, level of,
00:51:01
Speaker
of laws and regulations that apply. So I guess it's, yeah, the same understanding that I had is what it is, what I learned that it is where you're still partnering with them. um It's just more down to building what the business then is going to sell. So I used to help the business sell it. And now I'm like pre that stage while they build it.
00:51:23
Speaker
So that it can be sold properly and not get in the lawsuits and regulatory investigations and all of those kinds of things. Yep. Even a whole other piece is like how you sell it. How do you talk about it?
00:51:34
Speaker
Yeah. Marketing. Yeah. what are What are some of the main kind of traditional legal disciplines that are under the umbrella of product counseling? You mean like what type of questions we get? Yeah. Or the gu what areas of law are you required to be at least somewhat of a expert? iac Maybe experts, not the right word, but at least have knowledge of in order to do your job.
00:51:58
Speaker
I think it depends on the product specifically. So the way that we break up our team is we have our payments team that is supported by one individual, my manager, um our screening supported by my teammate, and then insurance, which I support. And then we all focus on product generally.
00:52:19
Speaker
And so You need to, I guess, know the specifics of that that line. So for myself, I would need to know, um we follow NAIC's model rules for insurance and insurance licensing. So that's what can a licensed or non-licensed individual or entity say or not say or do or not do when it comes to selling insurance or talking about insurance and the type of insurance. So that's, I guess, the the first and foremost thing that comes to mind. um
00:52:54
Speaker
And when I started, that was like the main guidance I had to really keep up to date on and is still a guiding framework on how we approach our work. And then it, you know, teases out from there.
00:53:06
Speaker
And, you know, one of the things that I'm sure is true is irrespective of the type of company or product that's involved, you have to get to know some specifics that you didn't know before that have to do with the business, but also the regulatory framework. How do you go about learning those things?
00:53:24
Speaker
What's what's your what's your approach to that? i I thought about this question beforehand. I figured this would come up. And honestly, the thing that comes to mind is hopefully you have a really good team that it's sort of the kind of scenario where you don't know what you don't know.
00:53:44
Speaker
um And so i try to ask all the questions um and rely on the people that have been there before me that might be more of an expert. than I am. um i don't ever claim to be the smartest person in the room. I don't want to be. i always want to be a student.
00:54:02
Speaker
And so if there are people around me and on the business, I rely on the business. I personally rely on my teammates, um probably on the product and on the business side the most when it comes to me supporting them because then I can hear what are the concerns? What are they thinking about? Because oftentimes they already have the concern in mind when they come to you with their question and that sort of helps me guide the then research that I do, whether that's using outside counsel, who's a specialist in insurance, or our own, you know, research and internal um support.
00:54:40
Speaker
So I'm really fortunate that I have amazing resources. team of individuals on the business side that I can, I guess, rely on. Outside of that, you know, it's doing your own research, asking, knowing what you don't know, and then asking someone who knows it or you think knows it.
00:55:01
Speaker
I mean, that that self-driven nature of inquiry, that self-driven nature of learning is such a critical component of all lawyering. I think it's particularly true in product counseling, but this this role, this um type of lawyer is barely new to the industry and to the profession.
00:55:20
Speaker
20 years ago, you were maybe starting to see the role somewhere. um Technology companies, and knowt want and maybe I'm wrong on this, but I want to say Apple is really credited.
00:55:32
Speaker
It's either Apple or Google or one one of those two big companies that are really credited for kind of creating this type of lawyer. which is a journalist. um and We're all familiar with um building a house.
00:55:46
Speaker
ah You have a general contractor who goes out and either he or she has the specifics of a particular area of the house that needs to be addressed within the general contractor's purview or they go out and they subcontract.
00:56:03
Speaker
The plumber, the electrician, the roofer, you know, like the floorboards, things of that nature. But the general contractor is the one that kind of quarterbacks the whole thing. They are they are there. through They're the ones who are responsible with.
00:56:17
Speaker
The home owner to kind of create their vision. That's how I that's how I think about a product council is. You have to have a little bit of privacy experience and commercial experience and marketing experience.
00:56:29
Speaker
And then you have to have any regulatory specific ah experience or knowledge, you know depending on the type of product, whether it's insurance or it's a social media product or something of that nature. Right. You have to have some level of understanding there, because when the business comes and says, OK,
00:56:46
Speaker
we want to do X or we want to sell this or we want to build that, you have to be able to help them navigate the risks. And it's difficult to help them navigate the risks without having some understanding of the legal and regulatory framework that's involved in whatever it is that they're building.
00:57:01
Speaker
yeah Before that, you know, they're going to law firms like like companies were going to law firms to get the relevant experience and trying to patch it all together. And they realized after some time, again, I think this is a ah real credit to the the boom of the in-house world in the last 10, 15 years.
00:57:19
Speaker
Hey, if we had these lawyers here, they're closer to our business, they understand our business more, they can get these answers to these questions much quicker, they'll be able develop relationships directly with our engineers and our product managers and our sales folks and whoever else is involved, then we're going to be able to do this quicker and more effectively.
00:57:43
Speaker
And that gave rise to what we now full well know to be the product counseling side of the house at any company that has that function. Mm hmm. Yeah, I think you especially see this when you're working with like outside counsel. I recall this coming up um on the commercial side first. So when I would be working on deals and I'm, you know, supporting my business and then working with the the counterparty and you can tell when they're using outside counsel versus... um
00:58:14
Speaker
their own internal team because just the way that they would approach the negotiation seemed like they were less less informed and that's not a knock per se but it really makes a difference in the whole experience um and the how quickly so and something is going to move forward or not if the if you're not um well-informed on like the whole ecosystem of the business. And it's really challenging in this role and particularly because you do need to be somewhat of a product expert as well as knowledgeable on the law.
00:58:54
Speaker
And then there's going to be nuances that you don't know. Like I said, you don't know what you don't know. ye So yeah. And a lot of times in our role specifically,
00:59:06
Speaker
Or least in my capacity and on this product segment, um there's not a lot of hard red lines when it comes to the legal piece. There's not, you know, we got go back to our earlier point around like, is it yes or is it no? That's probably ah another challenging part is the business ah usually wants to know, is there you know what's what's the hard red line we can't cross? Is this a no? Is this yes? and Usually, like it's a gray area. you know This is what you know. It's a gray.
00:59:36
Speaker
We know that if you're a little more over here, you're getting too much in the red. If you're a little over here, it's better. But like generally, it's going to get looked at and scrutinized. so That's another part of the challenge um in that this capacity as well.
00:59:51
Speaker
Yeah. I think to me is such a fascinating, if if I was to go back and do law school over again and decide on ah different path, it would have been on around, if I had known about product counseling back then, if it had been more prevalent, I think I would really would have, would have really enjoyed um that aspect of lawyering because I think it's interesting. A, I think it just suits me and my personality that much more.
01:00:16
Speaker
But I also think it should be a lot more fun than what I ended up doing. yeah Which why we're not doing it anymore. It wasn't talked about in law school. I don't remember anyone. Everyone talked about the patent lawyers yeah or privacy lawyers, yeah employment, obviously. like a lot of topics that we know. But I don't ever recall thinking product counsel is going to be my path. It just felt like you, I do have to have an element understanding the product when I'm working with sales team and in the commercial council role, you still have to understand what the product is. So to me, it was like, well, this is, I've already kind of scratched the surface of it. You're just going layer or two or three much deeper. Yeah.
01:01:04
Speaker
Yeah. It's a, Yeah, we we'll we'll see how this world evolves. I think it continues to get bigger. I think it continues to get more interesting. And somebody, I'm trying to remember what it was. um Somebody in my, ah one of my connections on LinkedIn made a post the other day. i' have to go back and find it. I'll send it to you.
01:01:24
Speaker
um On this a topic of product counseling specifically, he's a product counsel somewhere. And he's, He had posted about the first book that has now been written about product counseling.
01:01:37
Speaker
Oh, no way. And I cannot remember for the life of me the name of the book. I'll i'll find it. i'll I'll send you the link. But it seems to have a little bit of a history around how this ah discipline within legal departments came to be, why it's there, why it's so important and prevalent.
01:01:53
Speaker
and and what what the the author anticipates the role will look like moving forward. um Particularly, I mean, like we we cannot have this conversation or any conversation in 2025 or probably over the last six months and moving forward without talking about AI.
Integration of Technology and AI in Legal Practice
01:02:09
Speaker
So you have been in a variety of different roles and different companies, um roles that would have required you to leverage technology. Here's another thing that no one taught us in law school.
01:02:21
Speaker
That technology was going to be a part of our lives as lawyers, not just as human beings. We're pretty used to using technology as human beings, but as lawyers, no, they don't teach us that.
01:02:32
Speaker
um And then specifically now with AI, would love to hear how legal technology has played a role in your career and being a lawyer.
01:02:44
Speaker
And then I'd love to hear your thoughts on the whole AI conversation and the way that it's playing out in legal departments now. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a great point. i I get asked the question why I went into, because most of my experience is in the SaaS world, in-house for SaaS companies, and asked why I went that way. And honestly, like, i don't, it wasn't a conscious decision, but it sort of is, like, to your point, technology is just a part of our lives. um So i I'm glad i'm I'm in it. It's worked out.
01:03:18
Speaker
It doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Yeah. No, definitely not. Yeah. And funny enough, the company I worked at before law school was also the sales obstacle was for a SaaS company. So I've just sort of been there the whole time.
01:03:31
Speaker
um So, yeah, to me, it just seems like it's there. i see it as a tool, both technology and AI. Yeah. um they to me are there to help make your life better and easier these the products that we sell are there to make people's lives better and easier yeah um so i guess i see them as the the same way they're there to make you know my my life easier my job easier and hopefully make
01:04:05
Speaker
um me do a better job or support people the way that they need to. um and Because ah at the end of the day, I want to do a good job. you know Same thing we talked about with law school. like The means to the end.
01:04:18
Speaker
If technology and AI help me do a good job, then um I would like to utilize them. um I definitely am of the minds. so ai I barely started using AI. Things like Gemini or ChatGPT or things like that very recently, um which when I started using it, had thought back to like my first time in law school or ah first, you know, like in-house role. And sometimes I like wish it were around, but I'm also really glad it wasn't around at the time because that meant like, no, I had to just learn it the the real traditional way. Kind of like before kids not understanding what it's like to not have internet or cell phones. Yeah.
01:05:01
Speaker
um But so I think that, look, everyone, lawyer or not, uses AI and technology in the same or, different you know, both the same in different ways.
01:05:16
Speaker
And I think... It's meant help us. a I don't think it takes away from the person behind it because, like, even though we we talk about it on our team and within our legal department and and non-legal non-legal departments too around leveraging AI,
01:05:37
Speaker
So we're very much a proponent of of it. But there are times like we also have the asterisks around like this is when it isn't very helpful and when it's not useful.
01:05:49
Speaker
And i I do that still when I use it as make sure like, yes, I find ways that it's helpful to me, but I still have to augment output or make sure it's it knows it has to know the whole scope and the picture and that's not something you can easily put into AI all the time sometimes yes sometimes no but but But whether it's in the context of a commercial deal that you're doing or, you know, you still need the context that you can't just feed into the into your prompt. You can't just put all of it in there. It's difficult to do that.
01:06:26
Speaker
be For what it's worth, i think your your view on it is um a I think the. Quote unquote, right one, ah which is it's a tool. AI is a tool.
01:06:37
Speaker
and we're going to use we are using it we're going to continue to use it how we use it matters um what we do with it matters a lot which and you said something ah technology should make our lives easier would you say that ai in your lawyering has made your lawyering easier
01:06:58
Speaker
yeah sometimes but not consistently They're kind of just what I was saying that sometimes it like definitely makes some a situation or that day like much easier and approach a problem much easier. And then other times it's just not the right tool for the job. yeah Just like you have a tool belt with a hammer and a screwdriver and a yeah like you need different you need all of those for different things. So sometimes it's just not the right tool for me to use. Yeah, that's a great analogy.
01:07:31
Speaker
Okay, we're going to wrap up.
Advice for Law Students and Future Aspirations
01:07:33
Speaker
Okay, so i so this is my first podcast episode. want to try something that I want to ask every single guest. Okay, these are going to be your kind of,
01:07:43
Speaker
um ah these are kind of what you want listeners to walk away from where with with this episode. want to ask you three to think about three things.
01:07:55
Speaker
Okay. The first one is now, you know, having been a lawyer for what's been six or seven, eight years, something like that for you. um What's one piece of advice you would give to your law school self?
01:08:10
Speaker
Okay. The second one is. Is that the same advice you would give to a current law student? And if not, what differently would it be?
01:08:21
Speaker
And then number three, as you think, I'm trying to think of the right time here. I'm going to say 10 years from now.
01:08:32
Speaker
From the lens of your 10-year self from now, looking back, what do you hope that that person sees about you over the next 10 years?
01:08:43
Speaker
So those are the three things. I'll repeat them if you need me to. Yeah. Well, those are good. I'll try to remember. and The first one, what would I tell my law school self?
01:08:54
Speaker
Yeah. Piece of advice.
01:09:00
Speaker
Other than the obvious, like, you're going to be fine. You're going to survive this. um I probably the same thing that I heard and then applied was um seek opportunity, like whatever opportunity you seek, especially in your first out of law school capacity or when you're, you know, making that first leap.
01:09:28
Speaker
um The best advice I got at the time, which I followed, was to follow the opportunity where you're going to get the best training and mentorship So that may mean you're compromising on salary, the big title, the fancy stuff.
01:09:45
Speaker
Maybe the v that comes with the best training and mentorship or the other path might have less glamorous stuff, but you get the training and the mentorship. In my case, it was you know less fancy title, less money, those types of things. But that was the Vendavo path where like I wouldn't trade that for anything. I'm friends with those people.
01:10:07
Speaker
That changed my life for the better in a lot of ways. So that's the same advice I do. I have mentees and people I like to shepherd and, you know, take under my wing. And that's the advice I do give them. And I would still give to myself.
01:10:23
Speaker
That's fantastic. That's fantastic. I love the prioritization of that over the money aspect of things because it is money is such a big aspect. Of course, ever everyone like money is important. it's It's a part of everyone's life, but it's understanding the long game. that's That's the way that I would encapsulate what you just said. like Make sure you understand the long game because what you may be compromising now will pay off hugely for you.
01:10:49
Speaker
in three or four or five years because your career is not three or four or five years or even 10 years. It is 20, 30, 40 years, depending on how long you decide to work. So play long game. I like that one a lot. Okay.
01:11:00
Speaker
So looking back from 10 years from now, what do you hope that person sees and knows about you?
01:11:11
Speaker
It's less about career, I guess, but I guess i hope that that person sees a
01:11:21
Speaker
Solid, autonomous, independent woman. um And for me, that's important to say because i live in California. It's expensive to live with. um um And I guess and I've just wanted to be self-sustaining.
01:11:40
Speaker
um what and it you know I'm not talking about like having a mansion or a castle or anything although those things would be nice but I you know I want to be here because I got myself here in whatever ways that are um or in a whatever ways that that needs to be or that I needed to work hard to get here so I guess I want to Look back and see that someone who and like recognize it's hard to recognize that in the moment a lot.
01:12:08
Speaker
It's one of those things that people will compliment you on certain aspects and you don't see it because you're in it every day. So I hope that I can look back on it, which I guess I do and other areas of my life yeah i mean we we always it was part of the reason i asked this question is like again like as you get a little older like reflection is just a bigger part of your life it just is at least it should be i think yeah and so i think it's kind of cool to look back like is this what i would have wanted to do and there's never a clear answer for that but i think it's a it's a really cool exercise yeah those are good questions
01:12:43
Speaker
All right, Flora, thank you so much for joining us on Beacon Voices. um i'm looking forward to seeing how this how this episode turns out. And thanks for being my guinea pig today. I hope I did okay.
01:12:54
Speaker
Yeah, no, you're great. Always easy conversation chatting with you. So thank you. Pleasure. all All right.