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EP 02: AI Won’t Replace Lawyers — But It Will Replace Bad Legal Systems
5 Plays3 days ago
In this episode of Beacon Voices, Akshay Verma sits down with Gal Bruck, fractional counsel and legal operations expert, to unpack why legal work still feels inefficient and what actually needs to change.
Gal shares her journey from traditional law firm work to legal operations, explaining why effort and billable hours became substitutes for impact, and how in-house teams must rethink systems, incentives, and identity. The conversation dives deep into AI’s role in legal work, not as a replacement for lawyers, but as a force multiplier that frees teams from repetitive tasks so they can focus on judgment, strategy, and partnership.
They also explore the hidden risks of automation for junior lawyer training, the urgent need for mentorship, and why legal education must evolve beyond theory. A candid, thoughtful discussion for lawyers, legal ops leaders, and anyone curious about the future of legal work in an AI-driven world.
Read a detailed summary:
Topics
Introduction to the episode & guest background: 00:00
What law school actually teaches: legal writing, audience, and purpose: 02:36
Hero culture, burnout, and scaling problems in legal teams: 05:02
Legal operations as systems-building, not firefighting: 08:51
Creativity and impact in legal operations roles: 15:13
Why legal education fails to prepare lawyers for operations and tech: 22:08
Reimagining law school for future lawyers: 25:36
AI as an essential skill for modern lawyers: 28:21
AI as an equaliser: efficiency, access, and value pressure: 31:45
The future lawyer: judgment, trust, and strategic partnership: 40:01
The risk AI poses to junior lawyer training: 43:30
AI adoption vs real usage in legal teams: 46:12
Rapid-fire questions: 50:10
Connect with us:
Gal Bruck - https://www.linkedin.com/in/gal-bruck-290737aa/
Akshay Verma - https://www.linkedin.com/in/akshay-verma-esq/
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft
SpotDraft is a leading contract lifecycle management platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues. Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.
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Transcript
The Role of Creativity in Legal Solutions
00:00:00
Speaker
I think that, you know, in it maybe sounds silly, but but it's like, it allows you to be creative, right? I don't think that's silly at all. i think that's fantastic. Like, it's not, you know, creative, like I'm drawing some, of you know, like, I don't know that I'm like talking about it to other people. Like, listen, to this creative thing I came up with at work, but...
00:00:19
Speaker
As someone that's seen the whole process, when you suddenly see yourself come up with a creative solution that makes things better. mean, you know, you said it's like we're impact. Like I like to see an impact. The closing the deal is nice and like obviously, you know, revenue, blah, blah, blah. But I want to see that people's lives are easier and like the function for legal for them becomes like a business partner and i think to become that business partner you have to be able to be at that strategic level be helping them like because the the legal ops we're calling it legal ops because it stems from legal right
00:01:09
Speaker
Hi everyone, welcome to another fantastic episode of Beacon Voices. I'm really excited today to talk to somebody that I've gotten a chance to know maybe in the last month, month and a half, although we've been connected on LinkedIn for some time. And have shared a lot of really cool, interesting insights about the similarities in our career, how we think about the legal profession, how we think about legal technology and legal operations.
Career Insights with Gal Brook
00:01:37
Speaker
So we're going to dive into all of that with Gal Brook, who is a fractional counsel and legal ops expert based out of Israel. Gal, please take a little bit of time, tell us a little bit about yourself, and then we'll we'll dive into the conversation after that.
00:01:55
Speaker
Definitely. Thanks for for the warm introduction. um Yeah, so I mean, similar to you, right, I think I started in a very traditional going to law school and I'm going to be ah a lawyer, whatever I thought that meant. um And I think...
00:02:12
Speaker
that kind of evolved over time to what I felt ah being a lawyer meant and what those skills translated to. And I think super exciting what's happening in legal tech today um so that you can really build something a lot more sustainable with that knowledge that we've gained both in law school and both I think, you know, just like in life, beyond.
00:02:36
Speaker
Do we gain knowledge in law school? Do you really think that we do that? So that, is I know that's a question other than me like memorizing that all these factors need to be true to equal X. I think, I think really for me in law school, maybe the class that that taught me the most and I still use today was my like legal writing class.
Lessons in Legal Writing and Communication
00:02:58
Speaker
Yeah. um And I had a professor, Professor Figley, who, what he taught me and I use this all the time is he said, the most important thing is audience and purpose.
00:03:10
Speaker
Like, I don't need to teach you, you don't need to know, like, the law is the law and the law, like part of our job is to interpret it. But really, you always need to know, like, who's your audience and what's your purpose here. And I think I've taken kind of that kind of idea and used it in the things that I do, because there isn't a one set answer, right? Like,
00:03:30
Speaker
And that's definitely what you learn when you when you go in-house or something that there isn't, okay, who's my audience? It's a salesman. His purpose is getting this deal closed. Like i don't need the most per legally perfect answer. i need to you know figure out what we need to what we actually need to get done here.
00:03:47
Speaker
Yeah, first of all, shout out to Professor Figley who you remember. And I think it's so cool having taught myself, like when any of my former students either tag me in a post or I hear my name somewhere else, that's it's really a nice feeling. So big shout out for him because the one sentence that really stuck with you from law school came from him. I also think it's a really important one, irrespective of whether you are a lawyer or not. I am i am like you, like i' i I don't really practice law anymore, but especially in the world that I live in, i mean, if I'm out there speaking on a panel or I'm writing ah an email to a customer or a prospect or whoever it may be,
00:04:28
Speaker
The first thing that I sit down and try and think, okay, who am I writing to and what will resonate with them? Exactly. And hopefully the two things match in a very authentic kind of way, because if they don't, it's not going to work. but But hopefully those match in a really authentic way and you can keep those in mind.
00:04:43
Speaker
It's a really powerful thing to be able to do to communicate in that fashion. So great takeaway from Professor Figley. Where'd you go to law school? I should really even know this because looked at him. No, no, it's fine. I went to American University out in D.C. That's right.
00:04:56
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Cool. So he was a very great guy. Yeah. um so So you went to law school to be a lawyer, like many of us. um And yet you are here several years later, doing very different kinds of things. tell me a little telling Tell us a little bit about kind of where the changes started to take place in your mind. What about...
00:05:20
Speaker
you know, going away from the hard practice of law was really enticing and interesting. And we'll unfold a little bit of the conversation that way.
Transitioning to In-House Roles
00:05:30
Speaker
So I thought you have to go to a law firm. I think that was, that's kind of just the path you, you, you really are trained and thought that you kind of need to go or otherwise you're going to be, you know, homeless, but you know, you're like, okay, I gotta, I gotta to go to a law firm and you go,
00:05:47
Speaker
And you're mostly trying to fit into the system, I think, at first. right You're not like you're like, this is how things are done. i'm not I mean, I think they're how this is done because this is what is being shown above me. And I think when you start getting into it and understanding it more, you're like, wait, a lot of this is like not efficient and it's not like driven on efficiency.
00:06:10
Speaker
um like the model. So even if I'm seeing I'm doing like repetitive things or things that I'm like, you know, maybe today people think are like, how are you doing this? Okay, we have, you know, we have AI and we have things today that can really kind of maybe summarize things. But back in the old days, a dude wasn't that long ago, by the way. Wasn't that long ago.
00:06:33
Speaker
but know The due diligence on on some like investment around like I'm literally opening up every document to check if there's some provision on whatever it is that I'm supposed to be looking for, which I'm not saying you don't need to do that, but obviously that that's not the like strategic work and it's it's repetitive. So you would think that we would come up with some sort of system of how. to manage these things better. And I think always when I worked, I kind of built my own side knowledge repository of like, okay, I know I use this. What are that those provisions I like to switch in NDAs? Let me keep that for myself so I won't be looking for it every time.
00:07:12
Speaker
But like, okay, that should always be kind of true. And I think experiencing that and being on the outside, I said, okay, I wonder what it's like when I'm when when i'm inside the company and kind of the you know, you have to live with the decisions you make because you're there. Like it's not, you're not kind of that that external and outside of the business. You're really in it. So there's different responsibilities that you don't normally have when you're external. You have more skin in the game. And then I think that the the name of the game is like optimization, right? yeah
00:07:47
Speaker
No one's like, oh, you did so many hours. Good job. Yeah. They're like, were all the deals that I needed to get closed closed? Or were we able to send out that like offer letter to this VP we're trying to get? And we want to send it by, you know whatever tonight. I just told you an hour ago, but like, so I think for you to survive as a lawyer, once you go in house, you have to start thinking about more the macro and how am I making this not something where I'm just responsive, where I'm just putting out fires, where I'm just chasing my tail? Like, how do I build something that's more sustainable and and and scalable? And I think like,
00:08:30
Speaker
getting to kind of like clean up the house and organize everything was something that I realized like, okay, I really enjoy this. And I think that has a bigger, longer term impact than i just, the one-off ad hoc, you know, contract I helped close. Like, how can I make sure that we can close all those deals faster and not just that specific one? Yeah.
00:08:51
Speaker
um James Clear, who is somebody that I read often, he wrote this book called Atomic Habits. This guy was an Olympic lifter, and he's just so interested in the psychology of how human beings make choices,
00:09:07
Speaker
um how they build habits, good or bad, how you change habits, good or bad.
Building Systems for Success in Legal Operations
00:09:12
Speaker
Like if there was a book on change management, which is such a big part of legal operations that I would make sure everybody should read, it would be atomic habits. But he says something in that book. And actually just interestingly, read a post about this the other day, which is very relevant to what you just said.
00:09:27
Speaker
You were talking about success coming through systems. right? um Most people, certainly lawyers, ah certainly those of us who are type A and like, let's be honest, those of us who decided to go to law school, we tend to be on the type a side. We are very goal oriented.
00:09:47
Speaker
Yeah. We like to hit goals. And he said something really powerful that I'd never understood before, maybe because I hadn't heard it. But since I read it for the first time, i was like, wow, this is so true. He's like, if you want to win once, set a goal.
00:10:04
Speaker
If you wanna win once, set a goal. If you wanna be successful consistently, build a system. and And that to me is such a powerful encapsulation of what legal operations really is.
00:10:17
Speaker
um i mean, just random hypothetical like example. I'm a SaaS company, let's set a goal this quarter of closing 50 deals. Okay, yeah, you will hit that goal. You will hit that goal because you're good. Over time, you won't hit that goal because you'll need to increase that goal and you won't have built the systems to consistently help you hit those targets.
00:10:40
Speaker
And that to me is is such a difference between being a go-getter and type A and excellence versus systems, process, technology, consistency.
00:10:54
Speaker
Those are two very different skill sets and mindsets. Okay. honor so Long way of saying also, you said something else, right? You're you're doing deals, you're doing diligence. And this light bulb goes on for you.
00:11:05
Speaker
You're like, gosh, there's got to be a better way to do this. Now that is a theme that we hear often with people on the operational side or whatever. we mean But very few lawyers who still go through all of those things, even today, even with all of our technology, they still do, don't know, doc review and diligence and a lot of manual repetitive stuff. our Our profession is rampant with that. They go through this thing, but the light bulb doesn't go on or it goes on and they ignore it. I don't know which one it is. i don't know which one's worse. But Yeah, you're right. And don't make that operational shift.
00:11:39
Speaker
Why do you think that is? What is it about us that's like that? I think one, it's like, but again, pre in-house, you're rewarded for different things. You're rewarded for this heroism of like, I stayed up till super late doing this. And that's great. So meaning like, if you're willing
Incentives and Burnout in Legal Roles
00:12:00
Speaker
to kind of give up a lot of your life just to get to, as you said, hit that goal,
00:12:05
Speaker
no one's asking any questions. They don't really care about your, you know, and you've already gotten to that point where you feel like that struggle, that working that hard is you being successful because you're look how hard I'm working.
00:12:20
Speaker
And oftentimes, especially in in-house, like I see a really high burnout rate where people are able to do it. Okay. You're doing it maybe a year, maybe a year and a half. And you're tired because,
00:12:33
Speaker
hopefully your goal, right, in your company is that they're scaling, that they're they are going up, which means there's going to be more business. And oftentimes you'll see more inflated legal teams or things like that because they're not trying to solve the actual problem, which is that don't have a system. And they're solving it by just throwing more kind of manpower at it. And like, that's kind of what they've been taught is like, that's how we solve this. This is how we operate. We're all this like commando unit who who's rushing in. And, you know, I kind of look at it like, I don't want to be, I'm not an emergency room doctor, right? Like yeah on purpose for other reasons, but like, and I don't really, that's my brother's, you know, area. I'm like, I i don't want to feel like someone's about to die. And in general, that's not really what our job is.
00:13:21
Speaker
But a lot of people are living like that high level of anxiety where I'm saying, you're, you know, you're the family doctor, man. you're You should already have There's other things in place, like everything. You you shouldn't have that much anxiety because you're just a person that helps them navigate ah this world, this world being the legal world. But like you're familiar with it. Like use that knowledge to empower other people. think oftentimes lawyers were so scared of kind of sharing that knowledge or sharing the control over that. Where I'm saying,
00:13:59
Speaker
I would want you guys to have as much control that we can still keep within, you know, some risk mitigated things. But I think a lot of times people like to keep that to themselves, like, and they don't realize like, listen, even if it's not your common clause, if you've already seen that you guys repeatedly accept this exception, that's also built into your your system. And so you're not having to rethink these things every time. You're not having to escalate it to everyone. Like this is a crisis. We've never heard about this. and you know, like you wanna be,
00:14:35
Speaker
doing the more strategic work. And I think we're so used to as lawyers doing a lot of administ like bogged down administrative work that maybe we're like afraid to let it go. Like what else will I have? and it's like, you have a lot of other things. yeah You can bring a lot of other value that's not that administrative work and like trust yourself and allow yourself to be in that place where you have that space to do that work. Because when you're just putting out fires, you know, there's no way to build that system right now yeah you can't build the fire break you can't do fire prevention if you are constantly putting out fires i i think you know part of this you also really hit on is the difference in incentives and dynamics in the law firm world versus the in-house world in the law firm world your very value and to some extent i think this is a big driver your identity
00:15:31
Speaker
is inextricably tied to the amount of work that you do. Because that's literally the economic model for the law firm. The more work that Joe Smith lawyer does, the better compensated and revered Joe Smith lawyer is, and the better off the firm is going to be from a financial standpoint, right? Because if you have a thousand Joe Smith lawyers who are all doing Joe Smith things with respect to putting in their time and putting in their effort,
00:16:05
Speaker
and which is not to say that there isn't expertise and results that are involved there. Yes, to then everybody wins in that model. Now you take that over to a business and that's literally the worst thing that anyone can do. The more work that you put in without actual tangible outcomes for the business, not for the task at hand, not for the brief that needs to be written, but the actual tangible results for the business. If you can't connect the dots there and you can't impact that, what are you actually doing?
00:16:38
Speaker
Right? What are you actually doing? And now here's the big kicker. I know that law firms have been around for, i don't know, 200 years, 150, whatever that, a really long time, lot longer than you and I have been alive.
00:16:51
Speaker
In-house departments have only been around for about 50 years. GE created the first one. Most in-house lawyers, actually. Every in-house lawyer, almost, let's say 99% came from law firms.
00:17:03
Speaker
So they came from this mentality and they bring it to the in-house world, which is why the in-house world is not immune from this disease either. And I will call it a disease. And so that's kind of a perfect segue. In comes the knight in shining armor of legal operations and legal technology. Tell us a little bit about like, what drew you there outside of kind of this, there's gotta be a better way to do this. Like what what else about it was there that really drew you?
Creativity’s Impact on Legal Operations
00:17:29
Speaker
I think that, you know, and it maybe sounds silly, but but it's like, it allows you to be creative, right? um I don't think that's silly at all. I think that's fantastic. Like it's not, you know, creative, like I'm drawing some, of you know, like, I don't know that I'm like talking about it to other people, like, listen, this creative thing I came up with at work, but as someone that's seen the whole process when you suddenly see yourself come up with a creative solution that makes things better.
00:18:00
Speaker
i mean, you know, you said it's like we're impact. Like I like to see an impact. The closing the deal is nice. And like, obviously, you know, revenue, blah, blah, blah. But I want to see that people's lives are easier and like the function for legal for them becomes like a business partner. And I think to become that business partner,
00:18:22
Speaker
you have to be able to be at that strategic level, be helping them. Like, cause the legal ops, we're calling it legal ops because it stems from legal, right? Yeah. But it's really the operations that's funneled throughout the rest of the business. Cause legal is usually the only person that's really seen everyone's stuff, right? I'm like the only one that's read the, you know, event sponsorship agreement we're doing in Las Vegas.
00:18:49
Speaker
And you know, like, but No one else knows, but I'm saying, okay, how can I streamline for marketing that they have these events things? Do I feel like legal needs to look at everyone? Or do I feel like it's low risk considering all these other factors? So I think it's, you know, legal on the out as an outside counsel is easy when you're just saying I have to give the legal correct answer. Yep.
00:19:11
Speaker
Yep. And in-house, the legal correct answer is always easy. That's the base level. The question is, how can you get us to get what we want to do and do that? Like, what are your solutions? And I think when you have a space to really, I know where the business is going.
00:19:28
Speaker
I've talked to product. I know where their ideas are. on note And so I'm part of the streamline. Like you never want to be, you know, too late, right? That people are showing up to already when they're sick, right? They're like, ah help me and you're like, oh, okay. Like now it's hard. They're like, you already, we're already in a problem. And I want to be more like preventative healthcare care type of thing. Right? Like I'm saying, I'm with you. We're trying to keep the whole system healthy. And I think that's really exciting when you're seeing, you know, you're used to the KPIs of every other team and that they've hit them and, and your kind of KPIs are obviously dependent on what someone's doing. But I think you really can measure not your KPIs in the normal sense, but it's really like business satisfaction and like being, you know, an enabler, not a roadblock. Like, how are you making those shifts and changes that people can do a lot of things, you know, more self-service? And I mean, I think that's what the, you know, spot drafts of the of the world are doing. And they're saying, listen, it can you can be a better way.
00:20:34
Speaker
you can make a system here. ah Of course, everyone wants to feel like their legal team's unique and they're I don't know how it's going to be built in a system. and it's like, you're not that unique and you can be built in the system.
00:20:46
Speaker
I think the question is, who who who knows what how to build that system, right? And I think that's where the gap between knowing that you might need a system and and that's a necessity for people and like, how am I making that happen? Like, who knows the answers to the questions that, you know, the solution engineers are even asking me to start building my first workflow. And I think that that's why the work becomes about legal ops comes a lot before your first like tech purchase.
00:21:16
Speaker
yeah You know, you should be asking yourself, how do we even do things? Like, can I even tell you how one of these things work? Like someone needs an idea. What happens?
00:21:27
Speaker
Someone one talks to you in the hallway or is that, you know what i mean? Like, and a lot of people don't have a real, system, like not even a, you know, a guideline that people know of how to operate with that person.
00:21:40
Speaker
So I think it really starts at the basic level, right? This is reminding me of that scene in Office Space. i don't know you've seen that movie where the consultants have come in and they're talking to, I forget the name of the character, about what he does with the reports, right? And they're like, so you physically take the reports to the engineer? She's like, well, no, my assistant does that. Point being, like, dig into every step of the process. But here's the here's the kicker.
00:22:11
Speaker
If you're in law school, here are some words that you may not hear at all. Data, probably not gonna hear that. Process, probably not gonna hear that. ah Technology, probably not gonna hear that.
00:22:23
Speaker
ah so So you're really at at at a loss if you come in, and and this is to me is ah a cool next part of the conversation. You come in and and if you wanna do anything operational and you're thinking about going in house, you're at little bit of a loss.
00:22:39
Speaker
So hopefully where you're going in-house has, you know, your let's say your manager is operationally minded or you've got a legal ops team member or somebody like that who can kind of help you navigate it. But without it, you're really going to stick to the habits that have made you successful.
00:22:56
Speaker
And that's going to be effort and manual labor because you don't really know how to work around those things. um And I think that's a huge part of what continues to hold the profession back is there just isn't enough of that yet.
Operational Expectations for General Counsels
00:23:08
Speaker
ah We're starting to see a change. We're seeing legal operations classes and coursework and even certificates now popping up in law schools.
00:23:18
Speaker
And there's a really nice shift that's happening on the in-house side. I i work with and speak with a ton of GCs um who are either solo GCs at their companies or very small legal departments. And the operational demands of them are even higher than than they've been in the past.
00:23:36
Speaker
And they're being asked to do those things because you know who cares about efficiency and the bottom bottom line and data-driven decisions? The business. who is literally your boss, that's your boss.
00:23:49
Speaker
And so if you don't get on board, if you don't understand how to talk their talk, you're going to be left behind very, very quickly. I mean, I think I see that a lot of times when people make the shift from law firms to to in-house because it's such a mind shift change. And I think it's it's great that there are programs that you're starting to see in law school because I Again, I think you're taught that there's this one mold of what being a lawyer is. And and obviously you can be in different fields and you know you're a tax lawyer, this type of lawyer, but in terms of what the model looks like of how your work's gonna be, you kind of are like, yeah, gonna sit, I'm gonna read, I'm gonna type, and it's gonna be very, you know through a specific format. And even today, like, you know,
00:24:38
Speaker
I think when I've hired like junior people, one of my biggest things is not that I just want to like offload work to them just so I won't have to do the the easy work.
00:24:49
Speaker
I want to see what they're doing at the work. Like, of course you can mark up this NDA today, probably even more, you know, you can use other tools to help you mark it up on your initial draft, which again, I think, you know, we've talked about in the past, i think that's where my concern is for the future is like, how are people going to learn that judgment call yeah when they're not doing that core work?
00:25:11
Speaker
And part of that is really that you have to mentor people. And I wish that had started kind of sooner. One, definitely legal ops. You're not having that many mentors or seeing more people in the field, but it's still like not really part of lawyers and lot like it's they like, that's a different guy. That's like a technical guy. It's like, but you have to be the technical guy.
00:25:33
Speaker
Like you also have to be a technical guy. Yeah. I mean, so if you were to go back and reconstruct law school to produce the lawyers of today and tomorrow, actually, you know what?
00:25:49
Speaker
Let's erase the today because it's already too late. Like it did. This is, if you were to go back and reconstruct law school to produce the lawyers of tomorrow, What are the top three to four things that you would want the law school to have its students focus on to make sure that that was going to be a reality when they graduated?
00:26:09
Speaker
I mean, process is obviously a big word, but I think it's understanding like things beyond the law and how the law interacts with other things. So whether it's business, whether it's personalities and people, Like you're you're usually taught the law in a very theoretical detached, like not like, and then then there's a person that's, you know, touch but they're not telling you about that. And like, if I'm just answering the legal question, that's easy.
00:26:38
Speaker
I need skills of how to see, how to manage other criteria that are not pure legal in my considerations.
00:26:48
Speaker
Cause I think those are things that you had to learn, like how am I making these judgment calls? And I think it's, I mean, where the world is going, I think if you don't know how to utilize tech, I mean, I also think they're goingnna it's going to be going into law firms and it's you know it's going to be evolving. And if you're looking at tomorrow, you want to be a person that's enabled to do these things. If I had someone that just came out of law school and was like, I know how to use XYZ CLM and blah, blah, blah, I'd be like, great.
00:27:20
Speaker
I need somebody like that. Right. Like that's kind of more invaluable that it's like, I, you know, know how to write a brief. It's like, and I need someone that like, I memorized my contracts textbook.
00:27:36
Speaker
Yeah. Like they can recite back to me that it's like, I need you to be running with me. Right. I need, I think it's like agility, right? Flexibility and not thinking that your legal profession is this one aspect about you, like be flexible.
00:27:52
Speaker
and And I think if I also knew that my legal skills could be used to not just be a lawyer, a lawyer proper. I think that would also help. I think law school doesn't tell you like you can go to a law firm or utilize your very like great analytical skills and other skills that can be translated um for a lot of other things if we kind of help gear it to that direction a little bit more. Yeah.
00:28:22
Speaker
um So you you would you would make sure that the students understood how the law and lawyers are connected to other parts of of businesses and other things. Anything else? What else?
00:28:35
Speaker
I mean, yeah, I mean, you know that people gonna have to know how to use AI today. Yeah, i will like we'll get to that. there's There's literally no way to have a conversation in 2020. Oh, we're in 2026 now, by the way, without without talking about that. we're goingnna So yes, absolutely an understanding around AI, what it is, how to use it, how to prompt, things of that nature.
00:28:55
Speaker
i would i would just kind of I would put that under the umbrella of legal technology, although maybe it deserves its own its own category. Because I think it it in itself can teach you things, right? And I think part of that is knowing, like, how am I utiliz leveraging this tool as a lawyer in anything I do, right? Or as we, I mean, you can use it to leverage me being better operationally in my own home, like whatever it is that you want to do. But knowing how to leverage this thing that's kind of invaluable that, like,
00:29:26
Speaker
you know I don't know how people are gonna do their jobs without being also being able to be more efficient because they have this an in in aid Do you think that's a realistic thing that will happen with law schools over time, given given that we are, you know, in 2026, law school, generally speaking, is still taught the way it was taught 100 plus years ago? For anyone who has seen The Paper Chase, which is a fantastic movie, that's literally like that was my law school experience, except we didn't dress as formally. Like that was really the only change. Yeah.
00:30:03
Speaker
But it's the exact same thing. And and i but I take no issue whatsoever with the Socratic method. I think it's fantastic. I use it with my kids all the time. that I annoy the living shit out of them. But i think I think it's a great way to teach. But I'm talking more about the substance of of the of the education. Do you see that changing? Is that realistic for you I think, I think it has to be. i mean, i think you're seeing other programs like not long evolving in how they're operating. You're seeing a lot more people not in the legal field, but in other fields being like, I don't know that I need to go get a full degree. Like today I can get certifications for whatever it is and I'm getting a skill. So I think you're going to have to compete with what are value skills, et cetera, are you giving me to go out into,
00:30:51
Speaker
the you know hiring world to get employed. Because at the end of the day, you know i think what the bottom line is that you care that you're like employed and and and and and have like a sustainable income for yourself. And if you're saying, I'm going to have to make all this investment in law school, not sure that I'm getting skills that are necessarily needed for me to get this, whatever, this job in high tech where I can do other things with other knowledge. And I think you the prestige of the name of like, I am an attorney at law or whatever it is, you know, most of us are not in suits and like doing that kind of, I don't know, cool work. And so you're going to have to give me a better reason to go, a better value offer. Yeah.
00:31:43
Speaker
to this So this is a really fascinating topic, which is going to take us away just like for a minute from like the legal profession. But I think it's such a cool thing.
00:31:54
Speaker
um You currently live in Israel. Yeah. I'm in the United States. I i was born in India. I grew up under the British educational system. I came to the United States because my father um wanted to do his master's and the best schools for what he wanted to do and the future that he wanted for his family was here in the United States. So I grew up for the most part of my life with this belief that was indoctrinated in me that if I go to the top school for college,
00:32:26
Speaker
and I get a really good degree and I get master's or whatever it is after that, the more degrees that I get at the more impressive places, that sets me up for success. Now, historically in the United States, that's the way the educational system was built, was this, you attach a level of prestige to the education because these people are really bright and they know a lot of stuff.
00:32:51
Speaker
And so that system was fantastic for the United States because it helped proliferate through the Great Depression and the economy and all of those kinds of things. I mean, inventions were coming out left and right out of the United States. There was a lot that was there and not putting all of it on education.
00:33:06
Speaker
While all of this is, and I'm not a historical buff, but while all of this is happening, you look at Europe and you look at other parts of the world, This concept in the segment of the economy, which was around trade and learning a trade and building a business and a life was far more advanced and valued way more than it ever was here in the United States.
00:33:29
Speaker
Okay. But now look at what you just said.
Value of Education: Degrees vs. Skills
00:33:32
Speaker
Now look at what you just said. Hey, maybe I don't need to spend, and I will even go, because I talk about this with my kids. Maybe I won't spend four years, I spent five years in college, spend a bunch of money and come out with this degree.
00:33:46
Speaker
I didn't know how to do anything when I came out of college. I maybe knew a little bit more when I came out out of law school. I didn't, you said, i didn't know how to do anything. So why not learn how to do some stuff and then build a business and a life around it? What is that? That's trade.
00:34:01
Speaker
You can call it trade school. And like that has a derogatory connotation in this country still. And I'm like, why? And I just wonder if our technological advancements completely change all of that.
00:34:13
Speaker
And I think it's such a fascinating thing. I do think it applies to the legal profession and the legal industry. Maybe not the profession, maybe the legal industry. And that's where I think AI plays such a huge role because I still i think it is the ultimate equalizer.
00:34:28
Speaker
I'm about to go fix my water heater because of chat GPT. I'm going to tell you right now. Before like i was having we're having his issues with hot water. And like Google just wasn't helpful. And I went to chat GPT. And I'm pretty sure I know how to fix it now. cause And like it's the ultimate equalizer. I don't have to call somebody and pay them $250 just to inspect my water heater. I should probably will do it myself.
00:34:48
Speaker
Thoughts on that? By the way, also people are going to be like, I'm not, I don't want to call a lawyer for $500 hour plus, right? Okay, but I'm not going to advocate for that because you can get in real trouble. So we should say always- No, no, no, of course, of course. But I'm saying, again, you need to show people what your value is. You are going to start needing to prove your value in whatever. Because if I can turn to something- And just as any person, right? Like just when people are like going to a doctor and like, I looked it up and I have this and the doctor's like, that's not true. You know, I don't want people turning that way, but you need to show like, no, I'm more valuable because I'm not going to waste your time because you're right. I am an expert and it shouldn't take me very long. And and I think that like, again, ai is going to be pushing people more to efficiency. Like it's going to be less about like billables and more about like output deliverables, et cetera.
00:35:40
Speaker
um And I think we weren't used to that. As you said, I think it's a huge equalizer. I think if education, you know, whether it's because it's expensive and and and whatever, not everyone can go this way. It doesn't mean not everyone can't build valuable skills to do the same thing.
00:35:58
Speaker
Yeah. do Do you see it as an inevitability that it will happen? Or do you see it as something that really needs to happen? And if it doesn't, there's a bigger consequence on the other side.
00:36:11
Speaker
I want to believe it's an inevitability, but it probably is just me being like, I think this is what needs to happen, right? Like, I think it's what needs to happen because It just doesn't make sense. We're demanding more efficiencies from like everyone and everything else.
00:36:27
Speaker
And i definitely think you're seeing it in other professions already being impacted. and and And I think people's fear of like, they're not gonna be any lawyers is false.
00:36:40
Speaker
There are gonna be lawyers that are doing more strategic work. yeah It doesn't take away someone that can, again, think creatively. it can have...
00:36:51
Speaker
it can be you know a partner in brainstorming this smart person who can think creatively because AI is good is as good as you know the person using it.
00:37:02
Speaker
Absolutely. well It's not- Until Skynet, unless Skynet, until Skynet gets born and then yeah. And then that's it. I completely agree with that. I think i it's a great way to articulate it. I actually saw this kind of play out in real time very recently with one of our new customers.
00:37:20
Speaker
And we're working to get them set up in the platform and get their workflows running and so forth. And our implementation team ran into a situation where our recommendation to the customer was that they actually change their sales ops process slightly.
00:37:39
Speaker
Okay. Now that can be like, you know, if I'm in the sales ops and like the company's doing really well, I'm like, I'm not going to have a vendor come in and tell me that I should change something. Are you crazy?
00:37:50
Speaker
But we were very confident that it would improve what they were doing. So I escalated it to my... level at the customer and we were talking and the conversation very quickly turned into, you know, our CEO has actually mandated automation across the company. Why does this team want to do it in a manual fashion still?
00:38:12
Speaker
And it was, it was, i won't call it revolutionary, but you're starting to, to your point, The inevitability is is not necessarily organic, but when I was at Axiom, we we used to say this a lot, the only way true change was gonna take place in the legal profession to move us in this direction was if the buyers of legal services and technology said, this is what you will do.
00:38:38
Speaker
That goes to law firms, it goes to vendors and so forth. And obviously with legal technology providers and in-house departments, you're you're much more aligned in the outcomes. And so there's much more of a dialogue, whereas, and I'm not, and I promise this is not an episode to shit on law schools or lawyers or law firms, but there are misaligned incentives between law firms and the in-house side.
00:39:00
Speaker
So any change that may come from there is going to be a mandate that will come from the buy side of the equation. So when I think about the inevitability, i my brain kind of defaults to that just given the world that I played in for the last dozen years or so.
00:39:14
Speaker
And I think it it goes also back to your office space reference. It's like, so what so what do you do? yeah yeah yeah Yes, yes. And that's it. like We're going have to start answering like, what do I do? And how do I it? It's like...
00:39:29
Speaker
yeah It doesn't make sense anymore. It touches the very identity of so many lawyers. That one's going to be a little rough, I think. and i think here But again, I...
00:39:40
Speaker
a big advocate that we have more value than that and like allow yourself to give yourself space to not be doing that work and you'll see that there's a lot more significant you know work that you can be doing. And and and that is what I see. i'm i'm an i'm I'm an optimist by nature. I'm a glass is half full kind of person. And AI has, it's brought a lot of FUD into our profession. I it's brought a lot of FUD globally in every profession, but particularly in ours.
AI's Role in Legal Strategy
00:40:10
Speaker
And you know for me, because I've been in this operational role for so long, I see legal work in really two buckets, a lot a bunch of a bunch of like manual repetitive tasks.
00:40:24
Speaker
And then hopefully you get some time for what you really went to law school to do, which is your core strategic thinking, analysis, and work. And the ratio there in most places is probably, I don't know, 20 to 80, right? When it really should be the other way around.
00:40:41
Speaker
And AI can solve that. So AI can literally give the lawyers what they have been looking for, whether they knew it or not, but really were not able to get. And that's the way that I see it, which is why you're not going to remove all the fear. and I get it. And there will be...
00:41:00
Speaker
you know If you want to call it loss of jobs, fine, but i actually think it's a loss of tasks or an automation of tasks that's coming down at a very high volume, which allows the lawyers to be like, whoa, I've now got time to sit with my product manager. I'm a product counsel. I get to sit with my product manager three times more this week because I don't have to do this other manual shit.
00:41:23
Speaker
And that gives me so much more insight into their brains and what we really need to do to get this product launch and iterate on it. I just think it's so powerful. I think also then you're, again, you you become a different part of the conversation. Like if normally you're part of the conversation comes, we'll say at the end of the line, people are wanting to come to you to get your advice, not just on legal things, on business, because, know,
00:41:51
Speaker
you have a strategic analysis, dah, dah, dah, and you see the whole picture. And I think, you know, i feel my best when I'm working at a company and people are coming to me for non-legal questions. Yeah.
00:42:05
Speaker
You know, they're like, how do you think I should do this? And it's like, it's not related to me. There you go. It's not related to legal, but if they trust you and they trust your judgment, for me, that's the win, right? Like, because...
00:42:20
Speaker
I think that's the value of a lawyer, our judgment, our ability to to to make, usually not everyone, not all the time, but like hopefully analyze things and make good judgment calls, you know, considering our audience and purpose. And and i think that that's kind of the, what I really like about it, like is knowing that I can really make an impact and be a partner.
00:42:44
Speaker
beyond being the lawyer. okay I would go so far as to call that the holy grail of lawyering. I mean, i really would. Whether you are outside counsel or in-house counsel, because if you are in that trusted advisor role to the business and they're coming to you before they even think about doing anything, like, hey, let's let's get this thought partner in here because she really knows how to think about the legal issues that are at stake and then apply them in our business context and tell us what we what we should be doing.
00:43:12
Speaker
Not here's the risk, but like, what should we be doing and why? I just think that that's where lawyers have their biggest satisfaction exactly in the reason that they went to law school. I think i think it changes the game.
00:43:25
Speaker
I have a few AI questions I want to i want want to throw your way. So let's take these one at a time. All right, we certainly talked a little bit about you know manual task reduction and things like that. If you do that, and it was when you do that, if, when you do that,
00:43:40
Speaker
What happens to the junior lawyers who tend to get their training doing those kinds of things? Is there anything that we need to keep an eye out to ensure that those junior lawyers get the right kind of training?
00:43:54
Speaker
So I am worried. I am a little bit worried because I think the, and and we're looking at how the model is working today, right? But how the model is working today is that as a junior lawyer, you learn from these administrative, repetitive tasks. And the first time you don't know, and the next time, you know, a little bit more, and that's how they like, we've taught them. And I think part of the reason we've taught them that way is because usually the the lawyers above them also don't have time to teach them because they have their other stuff. yeah I'm hoping that with us freeing up the a administrative burden through AI,
00:44:39
Speaker
that it'll also give the opportunity where we have more space to, if we're going back to kind of the trade, you know, analogy that we did is that someone's trade teaching them the trade, you know, and passing down that knowledge. Because I think part of putting things in AI and putting things in system, it's forcing you to solidify your knowledge base. It's forcing you to have this knowledge base, not just be in your head and be,
00:45:07
Speaker
in living in a system and working. yeah And I think that enables you to also be able to, to teach that thought, right? Cause it's not just, you know, it's something that you've already been able to verbalize. You had to verbalize it just to, to create the system. So my hope is that like, you're going to be able to have people that have more space and time and to to share their knowledge, because I think,
00:45:32
Speaker
that passing down of the torch is, is invaluable. Definitely the things I learned the most, of course I learned from reading the many, many documents, but it's sitting, it's it's, it's sitting in the rooms with some very impressive people and being like, wow, that was really cool. Like I liked how she did that. And maybe after the meeting, I'm like, Hey, how did you know to ask that question or how did you know to do this thing? And I think like really we need to create more space that you're having though those mentorships. and And that really helps people grow exponentially.
00:46:12
Speaker
Where do you see the biggest gap between how AI is generally marketed out there for legal teams versus any insights you have or personal experience you have on how AI performs in practice in in legal departments or elsewhere?
00:46:30
Speaker
I think there's a lot of fear for legal in using it because of the nature of our profession that we feel like, I don't know, like if it gets it wrong, then you know it's against all of the law and we're all going to jail. But like it's like, well, why don't you can like review it before you send it out? And i think a lot of times people feel overwhelmed just by that.
00:46:52
Speaker
And so they're not using it in a way that's really being leveraged. um Because they're saying, if I'm going to look over it anyway, then I might as well just look over it by myself the first time. ah And I think like, well, no. And and ah that goes back to understanding what your work is, right? And if I'm like, okay, I'm looking at some contract, audience and purpose, I know what it's for. I know who it's for. I know kind of like what the risk level because it's only being used for whatever. So when I'm talking to AI, I'm being like,
00:47:26
Speaker
give me these following things that this is really what I'd be concerned about if it's in the agreement and like whatever it is. So again, I'm levering it to really do what I kind of already know how to do. And I'm really just instructing it better. And I think it's very important that you know what your work is in order to actually leverage it. And I think that's where we're seeing kind of a gap that like,
00:47:52
Speaker
they don't necessarily know how to to to to to instruct it to do what they're doing because they're not necessarily clear what they're doing other than look knowing to look at it there themselves, right? yeah Because it's one of them.
00:48:05
Speaker
You do see these crazy adoption numbers that are out there in all these surveys. And without getting at least one or two levels deeper, around like what does adoption actually mean? Does that mean like one person on the team used chat GPT for research questions? like i I don't know what that would be. I just don't i don't get the sense that it's much deeper than that outside outside of a few departments. 100% agree. I mean, I think you know even when you're looking at like contract management tools, which we'll say, i don't know if to say that they're more straightforward, but like they're already telling you a little bit what the system is and you have to operate within that system. It's not like AI, which is kind of more, we'll say free for all. You do have to to narrow it down.
00:48:48
Speaker
I think even then, like we're seeing, you know, a lot more customers in that field, lot more sales and in in legal tech. But then the question again goes back to the adoption. And I'm seeing that that's the hardest thing to do like getting these tools actually, let's say you got through all the hurdles of finding the, getting your your your team to buy into it, um that gap between let's actually make this efficient for our company.
00:49:17
Speaker
yeah And who's the owner of this thing and who's, you know, ensuring this adoption. And I think adoption for any legal tool, any tool, I mean, is is what's the difference. Like, it's not about purchasing it. And as you said, oh, this one guy on the team like uses it. That's obviously too expensive for one guy to use it. You know, it kind of defeats the point. And I think yeah you first need to go low tech with yourself of just knowing like, what am I doing?
00:49:46
Speaker
to to to be able to go high tech in either way, whether it's AI or whether it's a legal tech tool, to actually make it useful and of value for you and not another task on your on you know yeah list of tasks. And I think that's what you're saying for a lot of people. Like, now I have to learn AI. i already have another thing I need to do. Like, I don't have time for that. Yeah.
00:50:09
Speaker
Great point. all right, I have three questions left ah that I ask every single guest, okay? And they're really kind of a look back and one in the present and kind of a look forward, okay?
00:50:23
Speaker
So I think I know the answer this one already given some of our conversation, but if you were to give your law school self one piece of advice looking back today with the benefit of hindsight, what would it be? Stay curious.
00:50:36
Speaker
Um... And don't think that you need to go down one specific path. Like, don't be afraid to to try new things. Yeah. Love that one. Okay. Looking 10 years ahead. Okay.
00:50:51
Speaker
For yourself, what kind of path do you hope you've taken? Not just in title, but also in the work that you've been doing. By the way, if 10 years is too far ahead, because I know like things are moving at a like light. correct ten years we're like you You can choose to do it the five year. phase That's fine.
00:51:08
Speaker
um I think it's kind of what we talked about. It's getting to that Holy Grail feeling more often of being someone that's enabling.
00:51:19
Speaker
i think that's very exciting to me, like to go in somewhere and really feel like I've made an impact and, and can make teams be more successful just by, you know, cleaning up house a little bit. And I think like,
00:51:35
Speaker
getting to be doing more strategic work is is kind of where I'd want to be. Yeah. Okay. Last question. When you look back at your early career decisions, what signals or instincts turned out to be worth trusting and which ones were just noise?
00:51:56
Speaker
I mean, I think it's hard because, you know, you go down your path because that's kind of what you have to do. I think I always had a feeling like what's what's not aligning for me. And I think I kept trying out different things.
00:52:14
Speaker
And I think it wasn't any place. It's like what I wanted to make of the place that I was working at. And i think understanding that difference, because I'm like, maybe i don't like being a lawyer. Is that what I like? What's what's bothering me?
00:52:28
Speaker
you know, or what are other people enjoying? Like, what am I missing? Something is missing. And I like want to figure out how to fill it. And it think it took me a long time to figure out what's missing. And it's, there are a lot of things that I do like about being a lawyer. And I think it gives me really great skills. And I think learning how to translate that to, to other things is really what helps me find a lot more satisfaction that it's like, you don't have to just be reading contracts. So i like, other people like this? Like, I don't, you guys like reading contracts and I'm just missing out. And I don't know that they do, but like, I think I found that the niche part of the things that I like within the system. And I think that's what, you know, anyone should look
00:53:10
Speaker
four is that what are you like in this whole thing? First of all, i love that answer. It's a great one to wrap up on too, because it encapsulate ah it encapsulates a lot of our conversation around like how do lawyers, why do they go to law school in the first place? What do they find there? What kind of enjoyment? Who are they?
00:53:30
Speaker
Do they even know what's possible? I certainly did not, not even close. And now I'm not practicing law and like, it's the most fun I've ever had in my career. right the the last the The second half of my current 25 years has been fantastic because of that.
00:53:48
Speaker
um i really I really like that answer. was a good one. I like that one. All right. My guest today has been Gal Brook. Thanks so much for joining me and hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did.
00:54:00
Speaker
Definitely. Thank you so much for having me.