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Ep 109: Books That Stay With You: Legal Leaders Share Their Shelf
51 Plays6 days ago
What’s on the bookshelf of today’s top legal leaders? In this special bonus episode, host Tyler Finn asks general counsels, founders, and legal innovators one simple question: What book would you recommend to our listeners?
From legal thrillers to leadership classics, personal growth memoirs to spiritual texts — the answers are as wide-ranging as the roles these leaders play. Hear how books like Give and Take, The Culture Code, Ikigai, The Hard Thing About Hard Things, and 100 Saturdays have helped shape how these professionals think, lead, and live.
Whether you're looking for your next business read or something more soul-stirring, this episode is your perfect reading list.
Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-109
Topics
Introduction: 00:00
Rob Chesnut, Former GC and CEO at Airbnb, on writing a book that started as a dinner-table idea: 00:33
Dana Rao, Former GC & CTO, Adobe, on falling for fiction through Here One Moment by Liane Moriarty: 05:52
Shashank Bijapur, Co-Founder & CEO, SpotDraft, on how Zero to One and The Hard Thing About Hard Things guided his transition from lawyer to founder: Akshay Verma, COO at SpotDraft, on the leadership lessons from Getting Naked: 07:07
Tim Hirsch, GC of Mars Science & Diagnostics, on the untold Holocaust history in 100 Saturdays: 08:48
Manu Kanwar, Founder and CEO, LexSolutions, on trauma, ADHD, and human flourishing: 11:17
Alex Herrity, Director of Global Legal Solutions, Adidas, on contract design and building a second brain: 14:52
Keita de Souza, GC at Ryse, on Likable Badass and redefining influence: 17:00
David Cowen, President at The Cowen Group, on how books shape leadership and connection: 19:33
Joon Park, Chief Legal Officer at Extend Enterprises, Inc., on the spiritual depth of the Tao Te Ching and his wife's Pulitzer-winning biography: 21:14
Tyler Finn, Head of Community & Growth at SpotDraft, on books that shaped his values, legal curiosity, and political awareness: 23:01
Connect with us:
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft
SpotDraft is a leading contract lifecycle management platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues. Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Host's Welcome
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi there. My name is Tyler Finn. I'm your host and welcome to a bonus episode of the abstract podcast. Near the end of each episode, I like to ask my guests for book recommendations.
00:00:13
Speaker
Since it's summertime and you might be looking for a new read for your August vacation, we thought you might enjoy a compilation of some of my favorite recent recommendations from guests. Hope you enjoy.
Insights on 'Intentional Integrity' by Rob Chestnut
00:00:33
Speaker
First up, we have Rob Chestnut. Rob was general counsel and chief ethics officer at Airbnb. He also wrote a book called Intentional Integrity about some typical ethics and integrity-related situations that business leaders face and the right way to approach them.
00:00:52
Speaker
Listen to him chat with me about his process for writing the book, what the book's about, as well as some other recommendations he has for books that you might find interesting. Let's talk about the book for a second.
00:01:05
Speaker
i When did you decide that you wanted to write it? Was this as you were starting to leave Airbnb? Did you think it would be a great thing to do there? Like, yeah. How how did this come about? My wife wanted me to write a book.
00:01:16
Speaker
And my wife really early in the year was a ah book agent. That was early in her grand. She was actually the book agent for Carla Santana, Kamala Harris's book. Wow.
00:01:26
Speaker
Which, I mean, a number of you know big league books. So she knew the industry. And I started telling her the story of what we were doing at Airbnb. She said, no other company's doing this. This is a story that needs to be told.
00:01:38
Speaker
I'm like, ya yeah, yeah, yeah. I got a day job. got this general counsel thing that's keeping me up half-night as it is. and But she wouldn't let it go. And she said, I'll get you a writer. And I'll get you a major publishing deal if you'll do this.
00:01:52
Speaker
I'm like, yeah, you get me a writer and a major publishing deal, and I'll do the book. And of course, months later, we had a writer and a major publishing deal. um And I so I did it while I was general counsel and I did it not really thinking about um anything beyond just getting the book done.
00:02:10
Speaker
I gave the writer every Monday night for year. And I spent every with the writer doing it. And the writer was terrific. She captured my voice really well. And and then the problem really came up.
00:02:24
Speaker
was that I really loved the project and really recognized that it could make a difference. And then I also realized that ah publishers don't market books.
00:02:34
Speaker
The author has to do it. So if I was going to do anything, I was going to have to go out, do podcasts, book tour, do speaking in order to make the book go. So the book was either going to die because I was going to go back to my, you know, just to stay being a general counselor or,
00:02:54
Speaker
i look I've been a lawyer at that point. I've been a lawyer for 30, 35 years. no ah been killing I've been killing myself working a lot of stress.
00:03:05
Speaker
um I'd like to spend a ah little more time with my kids. Why not make the book the next a chapter? Because again, I've been doing the Airbnb thing for a little over five years. So why
00:03:19
Speaker
That's interesting. I like that answer. That's good. ah
Recommendation: 'Here One Moment' by Dana Rau
00:03:23
Speaker
Okay. Besides your own, if you have a book recommendation for our audience, it doesn't have to be a business book. It could just be something fun, but whatever you've got.
00:03:32
Speaker
So many great, i great ones. Anything by Adam Grant. If you can go read Adam Grant's Give and Take. Yes. like Again, for example, a wonderful book. um There's a book called The Culture Code by Daniel Coyle that's really wonderful.
00:03:47
Speaker
if you're thinking about how to build a culture inside of a company, um that it gets the most out of people. I mean, I've got...
00:04:02
Speaker
There's a great book on career. um if you're thinking about your career, if you're feeling a little lost in life and you're trying to think about, you know, what what should you do next? There's a book called Ikigai, I-K-I-G-A-I. It's a Japanese concept around your purpose in life that I think really helps provide a framework for thinking about what you would like to do.
00:04:26
Speaker
Hold on, I'll get you two more.
00:04:29
Speaker
I'm looking at my bookshelf for those of you who haven't seen me here. There's a book called Multipliers. It's by Liz Wiseman.
00:04:40
Speaker
um And it's about this idea of... um but as a leader, you're either getting a fraction of someone's abilities or you are actually making them even better, greater than they thought they could be.
00:04:55
Speaker
And Walt Whitman for me pushed me and challenged me to do things I didn't think I could do. So she was a multiplier. um But there are a number of leaders who I think don't get the most out of their people.
00:05:06
Speaker
And Liz Wiseman's Multipliers is, I think, an outstanding book to to help you become a better leader. The last I'll pick is Matthew Syed, S-Y-E-D, a book called re ah Rebel Ideas.
00:05:18
Speaker
So a really great thinker about in today's world where diversity, equity, inclusion has sort of become a bad phrase. What does diversity mean?
00:05:29
Speaker
And and and the how how can it be? um I think there's actually not that much difference between diversity hiring with a diversity in mind and hiring with excellence and merit in mind. I actually think the two concepts are are in many ways synonymous. So his work will help you think in that regard.
00:05:52
Speaker
Next up, we have my friend Dana Rau. Dana recently retired as general counsel of Adobe. Dana doesn't read business books, but he's got a recommendation or two for you that are a little more fun.
00:06:06
Speaker
Do you have, I mean, you're writing a book. Do you have a book that you'd want to recommend to our audience? This could be a business book or could just be something fun that you're reading right now. I don't read business books. That's not a bad ah character trait or. I do. Yeah.
00:06:19
Speaker
Well, um so I just finished reading. My wife loves this author, Leanne Moriarty. um And I now love her too on her recommendation. I just, I literally just finished yesterday. I'd also recommend it. This book called Here One Moment. It's her like latest book.
00:06:31
Speaker
Okay. And so, she it's just, it's just a regular fiction. She's not science fiction or anything. But this particular book is very fun premise in the first page, so I'm not giving anything away. But on a plane, a woman who you don't know who she is, but appears to be some kind of fortune teller, tells everybody on the plane the how they're going to die when they're going to die.
00:06:55
Speaker
Okay. Okay. And then the rest of the book is sort of about the consequences of that. Wow. Those predictions. Great book. I mean, I he was up till midnight two nights ago finishing it because I was yeah so taken by it. But she's an amazing writer. and Earlier this year, I sat down with Shashank Bijapur, Spot Draft's co-founder and CEO, and Akshay Verma, our COO, for a conversation around how they've helped build Spot Draft and where we're headed.
00:07:21
Speaker
Near the end of the conversation, i asked both of them to recommend a book that's been important to them in their careers.
Influential Reads by Shashank Bijapur
00:07:28
Speaker
I think for me, the transition from lawyer to founder, the book that made that happen for me was zero to one.
00:07:35
Speaker
I think it was foundational in more than one ways. I still keep going back to that book. um And the second one is The Hard Thing About the Hard Things by Ben Horowitz. I think it's...
00:07:48
Speaker
Just, you know, running a company is hard and you need to take a lot of hard decisions. Just getting that ah decision matrix done right.
00:07:58
Speaker
ah it's It's a great book to read. It's almost, you can't read it page to page. You just have to open the part that that's really problematic at this point and just read that one chapter and then close it back up.
00:08:10
Speaker
It's good textbook. Yes. Minds Getting Naked by um Peter Lecioni. Once I read the five dysfunctions of a team and my former manager at Facebook was really big on the lessons that come out of that that came out of that book.
00:08:25
Speaker
He wrote a second book called Getting Naked, which is about a management consulting company. And the the protagonist goes through a pretty amazing character arc in how he learns to navigate and push back on clients and customers.
00:08:39
Speaker
And now in the end, that actually ends up getting him a lot more business and amazing satisfaction out of his work. And it's something that i'm I'm hoping to take to our sales and customer success teams. Next up, we have Tim Hirsch.
00:08:51
Speaker
Tim is the general counsel of Mars Science and Diagnostics. Tim offers a very personal recommendation to our audience. Yes, I recently read this book called A Hundred Saturdays. Oh, I haven't heard of that. yeah cool. Something new.
00:09:06
Speaker
There you go. um So it's it's a really fascinating story. The story of this 90-year-old woman who grew up um in Rhodes, which is an island off of Greece, in the Jewish community there, ah in you know the late eighteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds um as part of ah of the Jewish community, which was very small.
00:09:31
Speaker
And, you know, it used to be um owned by the the the island was part of Turkey, then Italy invaded it in in the early 1900s. um And she ended up um like all the other Jews on roads being deported to Auschwitz.
00:09:48
Speaker
And she ended up surviving and made her way to New York and, you know, lived a really long life. And she met this this journalist, book writer, one day. They sat down at her house on a Saturday.
00:10:01
Speaker
And it led 100 Saturdays of them coming together to have him him interview her about her life in Rhodes. um And, um you know, turned into this book, which um is fascinating. you know yeah it's It's an incredible sort of snapshot. She goes through her life as a Jew on on roads, which you know was a really unique you know time um that we're probably never go to see again. but you know there
00:10:33
Speaker
this island where they went from having no electricity, no running water under the Turks to being invaded by the Italians and all of a sudden having this Renaissance um and, you know, being very prosperous um in the 1920s to, you know, in 15 years being all essentially, um you know, massacred and exterminated wow on what was the longest journey of any Jewish population to get to Auschwitz, Because they went from the south of Greece, almost northeast Africa, northwest Africa too, all the way to Poland. ah and And it's a beautifully reading book. you know the story She's a beautiful storyteller and is just a wonderful, wonderful story. And it's called 100 Saturdays.
Books on Leadership and Personal Growth by Manu Kanwar
00:11:15
Speaker
Great recommendation. Manu Kanwar is the founder and leader of Lex Solutions, a talent, technology, and culture-focused consulting group.
00:11:28
Speaker
Manu is a real expert on company cultures, how they go wrong, and ways that you might be able to turn them around and make them right again.
00:11:40
Speaker
He offers three recommendations of books that have been meaningful to him as he's navigated and at times challenging and stressful career. So I'm going give you three now, actually. I thought I was going to give you two, but I'm going to give you three. So the first one would be by Gabor Mate and his latest book is The Myth of Normal.
00:12:00
Speaker
Okay. um So Gabor Mate is like world-renowned authority on... First, he was a world-renowned authority on addiction. um And in ways of treating addiction, he found that we shouldn't be treating addiction, we should be treating the pain.
00:12:15
Speaker
So that led him to become the world authority on trauma. And the way he redefines trauma is that it's not necessarily a terrible event that happens to some people. It's just any event or circumstances in which a child's needs went unmet.
00:12:32
Speaker
That creates a traumatic event, that creates a traumatic circumstance that then leads, you know, that that that person to have like vulnerabilities that can persist over time and negative self-worth and whatever it might be, or, you know, have negative toxicity that I need to do this in order to feel successful. I need to be that to be happy.
00:12:51
Speaker
I need to have this to feel content. You know, none of these things are true. um And so those are myths, but also the fact that there is a normal that we all should subscribe to is a myth. And so he talks about that at length with lots of other you know perspectives and stuff. It's a brilliant book and a really important perspective.
00:13:09
Speaker
um The second one, just because I've only just finished it is ADHD 2.0. um so it's about adhd uh by two authors who really made the adhd you know more well known um in in in the world and they're just now coming back to say obviously there's a lot more being written and talked about adhd but this is what we see from our perspective and it's just a brilliant book for people who think that they may be suffering and the people who think that you know they may have a partner or a child or others that may be and actually I think for any good leader to read and just understand what it means because we talk about ADHD superpowers but no really gets what it actually means and there are lots of you know negative traits and challenges that that that that people with ADHD suffer from that are not well understood that people just write off and that you need to man up and change and get what better organized or whatever which is just not not helpful
00:14:04
Speaker
um And I mean, i'm I'm not diagnosed yet. I'm waiting for a diagnosis, but it's something that I'm starting to learn about. Interesting. Not just for myself, but for other people. So, you know, I may or may not be, but it certainly resonates really, really strongly. like Yeah.
00:14:18
Speaker
And then the third one, just because, like I mentioned him earlier, Paul Gilbert, um he's He's brought out a few books which are all just beautiful. um but The one he brought out last year was called The Mentor.
00:14:30
Speaker
um And um and it's it's beautifully presented. It's just like beautiful writings. And he talks about his journey and his journey as a sort of coach and a mentor, but while he takes you through an art gallery essentially.
00:14:45
Speaker
And it's just like, it's his life story written through that. And it's just it's just beautiful. um And I think really, really poignant, especially at a time like now. Alex Harity leads LegalOps for Adidas, the global clothing and sneaker brand.
00:15:00
Speaker
Alex offers a couple of tech-inspired fiction picks for our list of book wrecks. I guess just reading wise, like just in terms of fiction, i read a read, i probably everyone's read this recently because it was kind of a a bestseller, but Tomorrow, Tomorrow, Tomorrow. Oh, I haven't read this yet. Really good. If you're into this kind of space, it's all about like video games from like the 90s and like a story around two developers making that really, really good.
00:15:24
Speaker
um so if you're into fiction, that's just one fresh fresh off my mind that I read recently and enjoyed. um And then kind of stuff in this space. um Someone who's really good is Alex Hamilton from Radiant. He wrote the book Sign Here, which is all about contract processes.
00:15:40
Speaker
And basically he's he's that he's got a sort of fixed fee style law firm. And it's all about kind of the... It's all of the non-techie part of the contracting process around like you know how how you can how how contracts should be. They should be these like relational documents where people... So you wouldn't you shouldn't draft them in an adversarial way.
00:15:58
Speaker
You should be drafting them with ah the least amount of friction while still protecting your needs. So if you again, if you're into contracting and tech and this stuff, it's not about the tech, but it's about the content in a different way, in a fresh way.
00:16:09
Speaker
So I totally um recommend that. um And there's one more that I'm reading right now, which is quite good, which is like how to build a second brain. but So I'm really interested in sort of knowledge management at the moment. and That's kind of one of my topics that's personally interesting to me as well as professionally. And his thing is just basically...
00:16:26
Speaker
just a concept for like how you, what you should outsource to like a, to, you know, ah a database and how you might do that and have a process for that. but then how that might then work with like a team of different people. Again, I think super relevant for this era that we're now going in where, you We're knowledge workers.
'Tomorrow, Tomorrow, Tomorrow' - A Fiction Recommendation by Alex Harity
00:16:43
Speaker
I never got called a knowledge worker until ChatGPT. But it's like, yeah I'm a knowledge worker. So it's like, what am I doing with all this knowledge? And where does it sit? And how is this AI going to work with this? So I think if you're going to read anything about knowledge and how you might use your knowledge, that that's been cool. I'm kind of halfway through that one. So I'd get to give that a ah recommendation as well.
00:17:00
Speaker
Keita D'Souza is the general counsel of RISE. She and I had a really meaningful and candid conversation around wellness in the workplace and protecting your mental health and wellness when you're in high pressure situations and high stress jobs.
00:17:19
Speaker
Along those lines, she offers a number of book recommendations for our audience. Yes. So like a true Gemini, i have two types.
00:17:31
Speaker
So I did prepare for this. um So I'm reading and I'm looking at my notes here because don't want to mispronounce the name. author the author's name is Alison Fregale, believe.
00:17:44
Speaker
The book is called Likeable Badass. So i this book was recommended to me by a group of women that I recently met And a bunch of people from this group said, this is the book that they are reading or have read or they just really loved.
00:18:00
Speaker
And I picked it up. I'm only on chapter three, Tyler, and I'm already going to read it again because there's a lot going on. And then B, I know this is a book I'm going to come back to yearly.
00:18:14
Speaker
It is- That's high praise. Yes. So the book is kind of- Lightwave blowing my mind and it's just chapter three. so I might have to pick that one up. That sounds really interesting. Likeable badass. Let me know what you think.
00:18:28
Speaker
um And then on the health and wellness side, of course, I have healthy wellness books. China Study by T. Colin Campbell and Never Be Sick Again by Francis.
Wellness Book Picks by Keita D'Souza
00:18:43
Speaker
Gosh, what's his last name? Raymond Francis. Raymond Francis. raymond francis Both excellent books. I read them yearly. I don't want to give away what they're about, but they are about the connection between, well, China studies the connection between what you eat and your health, here like a research perspective.
00:19:03
Speaker
Well written and interesting. Don't worry. It's not like a boring book. And then, um, never be, never be sick again. Talks about what I was saying earlier about this idea that wellness is all of the things it's your health, it's your emotional. And he, and he kind of goes through chapter by chapter to help you really think about these different areas of your life.
00:19:24
Speaker
So I've read them all multiple times and each time I read them, either I'm reminded of something or I learned something new. So I love both of those books. David Cowan is the founder and president of the Cowan Group.
00:19:37
Speaker
He puts on great events for legal ops leaders around the country and is building a community of some of the highest performing legal ops leaders out there. He is a big reader and he offered up a variety of record book recommendations that have influenced him throughout his career and that he thinks might be helpful to others.
00:19:59
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, books are books are these living things that just keep going. you know, if you wanted to go back in time, um I would say, Anne ran Atlas shrug probably influenced me as much as anything else in my entire life.
00:20:11
Speaker
Interesting. Um, I would say followed by Dale Carnegie's, uh, you know, how to win friends and influence people ah followed by Keith Ferrazzi's never eat alone, which changed my entire business model. Uh huh. Um, from good to great by, um, by Jim Collins taught me the flywheel and how to stay true to, you know, your own curiosity.
00:20:31
Speaker
and then there's like everything of the moment, you know, um, I mean, I could, I like you could go all day. I could fill up a library. And then I just, I think the more i will say this to anybody who's listening, you know, reading will make all the difference in the world for your life.
00:20:48
Speaker
And because it allows you to connect with people about stories that connect with them. If you want to connect with other people and you've read a book and you're like, oh my God, I read that book. You instantly have that.
00:20:59
Speaker
this moment of connection and this language. i guess I can't emphasize
David Cowan on the Importance of Reading
00:21:03
Speaker
it enough. however old However old you are, whether you're in your 20s, 30s, 40s or 50s, whether you've got kids and you're busy, like read. It's just, there's just nothing else like it.
00:21:13
Speaker
Absolutely. June Park is the chief legal officer at Xtend, but he offers some slightly different recommendations. Earlier in his life, he received a master's in Chinese philosophy.
00:21:26
Speaker
That influenced one of his picks. He's also married to 2024 Pulitzer Prize winning author and talks a bit about his wife's book during our episode and my question about books that he'd recommend for our audience.
June Park Discusses 'Master Slave, Husband, Wife'
00:21:43
Speaker
when we were When we were talking before we got on and started doing the the podcast, you mentioned that your wife just won a Pulitzer Prize for a book that she wrote.
00:21:54
Speaker
Can you tell us about that? Because going to go order it. I think it sounds pretty cool. yeah so So my wife is Ilian Wu. ah She won the Pulitzer in the 2024 Pulitzer for biography for a book called Master Slave, Husband, Wife.
00:22:09
Speaker
And it's about this enslaved couple that start off in Macon, Georgia and make their way north. But rather than following anything like the Underground Railroad, they actually go in plain daylight because she is so fair, ah there her complexion is so fair that she disguises herself as a disabled master and her husband pretends to be her slave.
00:22:34
Speaker
And together they travel on by train, by first class coaches, staying at the top hotels and escape to freedom that way. And it became a sensation once they reached the North.
00:22:46
Speaker
because of the though the way in which they escaped. And so that's the story that she's telling in this particular, it's everything is true. The amazing thing about this book is it's creative nonfiction. It reads like a novel, but everything you read in it is factual.
00:23:01
Speaker
Last up, but hopefully not least, of our 100th podcast episode, I was interviewed by my colleague Nocta, Akshay Verma's chief of staff. Nocta asked me for one recommendation, but like most of our guests, I offered a few.
00:23:18
Speaker
I picked three books that I'd read recently that I thought you might enjoy reading. um What is a book you would like to recommend to your listeners? And you can recommend more than one. I'm sure that that's a hard one to narrow down.
00:23:35
Speaker
thought a bit about this question because I knew it was coming. Makes sense. I recommend a business book first. i have I have um three books that I think will be ah all different and and interesting for folks to read.
00:23:52
Speaker
The first book is is a business-y book. It's called Give and Take. It's by Adam Grant. I may have mentioned it in conversation with other podcast guests. um He looks at the sort of – he's a psychologist, and like kind of a pop psychologist, but he's very smart. um He looks at the sort of landscape and categorizes people in three ways. He says there are people who give are givers,
00:24:18
Speaker
They're willing to give without any notion of reciprocity or getting something in return. There are matchers, people who are totally willing to give, but it's more like I bought coffee this time, so I'm not going to tell you to buy coffee next time, but you should probably buy me coffee next time.
00:24:39
Speaker
There's an expectation. There's an expectation. And then there's takers, people who don't give very much. We all know, hopefully, we we don't have many people like this in our lives. We've probably all dealt with people like this before. encountered them, yeah. Right? We've encountered them before.
00:24:52
Speaker
People who just take take, take, take, take are very sort of self-interested. um And it's been a number of years since I read the book, so I'm not going to be able to explain the sort of like whole argument and all the research.
00:25:03
Speaker
But essentially he's looking at like, ah we know we probably don't want to be takers, right? But are like givers just chumps? Like are we all being taken advantage of? um And the conclusion in the research over the long run is the answer is no.
00:25:18
Speaker
Actually, like true givers the ones who end up with the most and who are the happiest and who actually like oftentimes have the most money. And um if you're listening and you've like read this book in the past week, you can probably poke holes in that summary. But i'm going to I like I like carrying that that with me um in my own life. And I would recommend that folks read it.
00:25:39
Speaker
um I don't read a lot of fiction. a friend and mentor of mine recommended a book ah that I read recently called The Last Days of Night. It's a very quick read. It's it's it's historical fiction.
00:25:55
Speaker
It's about ah Thomas Edison and George Westinghouse and their sort of fight to electrify America. And the interesting thing, yeah, the interesting thing for lawyers, um the folks who are listening or interested in the law, is that Paul Cravath, who you know started the firm now Cravath Swain Moore, features very prominently because he was George Westinghouse's lawyer. And there's an IP sort of fight battle occurring.
00:26:24
Speaker
um i think that will be i think it's a fun read and like something that's a little legal related yeah yeah for our for our listeners. um It was tough for me to pick like a nonfiction book for ah to recommend for for the audience. um One that i i mean i i like the I subscribe to The New Yorker. I like long form journalism. um I like that sort of journalistic style.
00:26:51
Speaker
um Everyone who is here is gone, is about the sort of immigration crisis in America. um i think that's a very and important component of this political moment and what we're dealing with.
00:27:06
Speaker
And ah it's something that I didn't understand as deeply, perhaps, as some of the economic drivers or changes in Washington and Washingtonian norms that have happened.
00:27:20
Speaker
I read it before the election last year. And if you want to understand this political moment, I would highly recommend that you read it as well.
Conclusion and Reading Encouragement
00:27:27
Speaker
That's all we've got for you today. i hope you're having a great summer. i hope you pick up one of these great reads on your next vacation and you can relax, maybe learn something. And and inspires you to listen to a few episodes of our podcast.
00:27:46
Speaker
Thanks so much for listening to this one and hope to see you next time.
00:27:56
Speaker
you