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Ep 111: Lessons from Ola’s Former GC: Leadership, Risk, and Reinvention
0 Playsin 54 minutes
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In this episode of The Abstract, Tyler Finn sits down with Rohit Kumar, former SVP and General Counsel at Ola and a seasoned in-house leader. Rohit reflects on his journey from corporate law firms to building scalable, tech-driven legal teams in high-growth companies. He shares insights on embracing legal technology early, managing global litigation, navigating regulatory challenges, and shaping team culture. From career pivots inspired by Charlie Munger to implementing CLM solutions ahead of the pandemic, Rohit’s story is a masterclass in reinvention, resilience, and leadership in the evolving legal landscape.
Read detailed transcript: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-111
Topics
Introduction 00:00
Rohit’s early career journey: choosing law and working across India and international firms 02:04
Moving from law firm life to in-house: time, control, and motivation 04:40
Adapting to in-house culture, stakeholder management, and leadership mindset 06:47
Early adoption of legal tech and compliance solutions at UPL 10:09
Pandemic-driven adoption of CLM and collaboration tools 15:21
Transitioning from traditional enterprises to founder-led tech companies and scaling Ola’s legal team 19:50
Leadership evolution: building teams, specialized roles, and creating a strong culture 22:58
High-stakes legal challenges: managing litigation and settlement strategy in Ola’s UK class action case 30:28
Regulatory complexities: two-wheeler taxis and navigating government pushback in India 37:20
Contracting efficiency: blockers to CLM adoption, improving processes, and scaling efficiency 42:37
Rapid-fire Questions 48:13
Connect with us:
Rohit Kumar - https://www.linkedin.com/in/rohit-kumar-5153715/?originalSubdomain=in
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft
SpotDraft is a leading contract lifecycle management platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues. Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.
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Transcript
Reflective Approach in Legal Matters
00:00:00
Speaker
Spend more time thinking about a matter than reading it. And I think that did make ah you know some difference in you know in my output. I think all lawyers, including myself, whenever you get a problem, you just start reading.
00:00:21
Speaker
And you don't you know you read whatever you could and you know try finding a solution to that problem. But you you don't spend enough time thinking about that problem. And I think that, you know, it's not easy. It sounds very easy. It's not easy.
00:00:38
Speaker
And I think some of it comes with experience. But your ability to to sit down and think about solving a problem, even a legal problem, has tremendous benefit and I've you know i've benefited tremendously with that one advice which I which i read from a senior jurist in India.
Introduction to Rohit Kumar and His Journey
00:01:07
Speaker
Welcome to a special episode of The Abstract shooting here in Bangalore, India. Today on the podcast, I am joined by Rohit Kumar, former SVP and general counsel at OLA.
00:01:21
Speaker
Rohit brings a unique lens to reinvention, curiosity, and creating solutions that center both empathy and scale. He's gone from managing cross-border legal issues at Fortune 100 companies,
00:01:37
Speaker
to building software that helps people collaborate around the world with clarity and confidence. We're going to have a conversation today about shifting from more traditional law to tech, the courage to bet on yourself, and how seemingly small frustrations can become catalysts for bigger ideas.
00:01:59
Speaker
Rohit, welcome to this episode of The Abstract. Thank you, Tyler. look forward to having this discussion. Okay, let's go back maybe to the beginning. ah Share a little bit about your journey starting in law. You know, you you spent time at a top tier firm, you did some high stakes global work.
00:02:17
Speaker
What was it that drew you to to this path? ah Look, I think a lot of it was not planned. um I think I decided to be a lawyer almost 28, 29 years back, and law was not considered as a profession to pursue back then in India.
00:02:38
Speaker
um Typically, people would have a medical or engineering profession to look forward to. ah But and I met somebody who was you know quite upbeat about law as a profession, and particularly corporate law as a profession.
00:02:53
Speaker
And that that drew me to to law.
Transition from Law Firm to In-House Roles
00:02:58
Speaker
And I ended up being where I, you know, completing my law, having a fabulous journey, you know, starting with, you know, a little bit of litigation work, but then transitioning to a full service corporate law firm practice, doing M&A with the top tier Indian law firm, and then, know, moving international working with a top tier international law firm and then to in-house, which we'll discuss in a while. So I think that's the journey I've had.
00:03:28
Speaker
Tell me a little bit about the time working internationally, ah you know, working with an international firm. i think that's that's interesting and somewhat unique. it's ah It's very unique, at least for, you know, I had a fantastic run.
00:03:42
Speaker
Yeah. And it was not just the work we did, but the overall experience of working in an international form for somebody like me. I mean, there are very few Indian lawyers who have not had an international degree and, you know, ended up working with or got an opportunity to work with international firms. So i was very fortunate, very lucky.
00:04:03
Speaker
ah You end up doing some fascinating work across jurisdictional and working with some great lawyers and you know great teams, which I think, and the scale of just, and I think when i I went there, the Indian law firms were and much smaller.
00:04:22
Speaker
ah you know The biggest firm probably you would have 200 to 150 lawyers. And the firm I worked with, I was in the Melbourne office of Howard Smith Freehills. And just in that office, we had 800 people.
00:04:35
Speaker
Oh, wow. so So just the scale was very, very different. Yeah. I think that, you know, your path at that point is not so dissimilar from what I've talked to a lot of folks in the US about, which is we have this term big law, right? Like you're at a corporate law firm, at the hours are very long, and at some point you decide that you wanna go in-house and people have different motivations for that.
00:04:59
Speaker
ah Was there a specific moment or what drew you to the realization that maybe moving in-house was the right next step for you? I think it was ah couple of them. I've always been a big ah fan of Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett.
00:05:15
Speaker
And, yeah ah you know, I remember around 2008, 2009, I was reading this book called Damn Right, which is a biography on Munger. and And as you might know, Munger was also a lawyer initially.
00:05:28
Speaker
And it started with a law firm, and that law firm still exists with its name and in West Coast. ah So I think one of the things he often talked about is his ability to control his time and know living ah your life, billing your time to to a client. And you know that's struck me as well that, look, I don't want to be you know leading my life where I'm billing every six minutes.
00:05:55
Speaker
yeah and ah And so that was one. i think the other pivot was I think when I was with HSF, I remember working with a very, very senior partner.
00:06:06
Speaker
And it was the time between Christmas and New Year. And he had plans to go go for a ski vacation with his family. And he had to cancel that trip. And he was a bit upset because the client wanted us to close a deal between Christmas and New Year. And he was bit upset. And and i was he was sharing that with me and I realized that look, he is probably the most successful lawyer I know, a corporate lawyer I know. And if he can't control time yeah at this phase of his career, I think it's, you know, you'll probably never be. And I think that was those two kind of coincided and and I ended up taking a decision of moving in house.
00:06:47
Speaker
What was this sort of adjustment to the in-house culture like? Because I think, you know, sort of culturally, in-house legal work is a little bit different, not just because maybe you're on your own schedule, but you need to enable the business to take risks in ways that you may not be as comfortable with when you're outside counsel. We'll talk in a second about, know, you need to leverage technology in ways that law firms may not feel the pressure to do.
00:07:11
Speaker
What was that shift like for you? So I think, look, I've always been good with dealing with people. And I think the biggest difference I felt, there two main difference. I think and when you work in a law firm, ah you are the revenue generating team or a person.
00:07:29
Speaker
ah So the firm revolves around you. Whereas when you join in-house, you are a support function. you know You may be an important support function, but you are still a support function. The business makes money and you are kind of protecting the business and you know in all ethical and you know compliant manner so that and you know the business continues to grow so i think that was one change i could feel and i think the other one is uh very little is uh experienced or learned about stakeholder management when you work uh in a law firm whereas when you join a company then you realize that look there are different uh
00:08:11
Speaker
you know, pa power centers or different stakeholders who are important to be convinced about issues. And it's important to have your channel of communication open with all of them and, you know, come talk to them often to come up with a solution to, you know, whatever problems are you're facing. And I think that's one big mind shift I i had between working private,
00:08:33
Speaker
doing private practice versus moving to in-house.
Adopting Technology in Legal Work
00:08:36
Speaker
And I think management as well, ah right? There are some, I think, law firm partners who are great at managing associates and and great at helping build a culture for a firm.
00:08:47
Speaker
There are also a lot of places where you can be a partner and because of the ability to generate revenue, which you're referencing, you can be a terrible manager and you can be a star performer and sort of one of the top lawyers, you start to you know grow in your career in-house, you have to pick up a lot of management skills as well and and you know understand that bringing people along with you or empowering them to accomplish things may be far more important than what you do.
00:09:13
Speaker
How did you adapt to that? So look, ah as I said, I have always been good with people, yeah thankfully. And I think my view is that sometimes it's easy to get these things done if it comes naturally to you. ah so i could I was not a very detailed,
00:09:34
Speaker
you know, a person who who would want to control everything coming out of of the team. Yeah. So, you know, believe in them empowering the right team, hiring the right people. So I think methodically over period of time, we built up that, you know, system where we ended up hiring some very, very top class people, empowering them, and making sure that they get the right training.
00:09:55
Speaker
And then you know enable them to to take ah decisions for the for the company. And you know of course, within the confines of whatever could be done. So I think that helped help me a lot.
00:10:09
Speaker
You spent a lot of a lot of time in-house at a large agricultural solutions ah conglomerate company, UPL, um huge business. Remind me the numbers, like when you joined one and a half billion in revenue and north of five billion when you left or something like that, is that correct? It was just under billion dollars when I joined in 2010 versus just over five when I left.
00:10:33
Speaker
Yeah. um Not all my guests bring up technology or say they want to talk about technology, but you did. You mentioned that you felt like you were an early adopter of tech in in legal.
00:10:44
Speaker
Can you share more about what drew you to to leverage technology and and what made you excited about doing it? Sure. So, that I have spent, as I said,
00:10:54
Speaker
in my quite a few years or you know initial part of my year working with law ah law firms. And I saw how technology brought efficiency and productivity in law firms in that setting, in both in India and when I went to international working for international law firms.
00:11:13
Speaker
So I could understand that technology is the enabler, can bring efficiency, can bring accountability. ah When I came in house, you know, I, sorry, i I think I should also emphasize that I've always been somebody who has had mid to long term views on things.
00:11:31
Speaker
Sure. um You know, not just short term, not just tomorrow day after next month. And I think that, that, and that adds to the fact that, and add to the fact that, you know, you believe that,
00:11:43
Speaker
ah you know, a small competitive advantage which you get over a period of time can, you know, make you a differentiator as far as, you know, efficiency is concerned. So I think that is what helped me, you know, adopt technology early.
00:11:58
Speaker
I remember 2011, 2012, in two thousand eleven two thousand twelve when we were looking at compliance at the company I worked for then, UPL. ah It was just, if not impossible, extremely difficult to map all the compliances for you know different tasks in India, you just thousands of them.
00:12:20
Speaker
And ah you know this is pre-Gen AI era. ah yeah But we did have solutions where ah you could go and adopt or you know take a technology and you know ins ensure implement and ensure that you become largely, if not 100%, close to 100% compliant, and which you could only do but know with the help of technology and not otherwise.
00:12:43
Speaker
So I think that's the reason I say I think one of the very early adopters of technology as far as India is concerned for in-house. And I think the other was I've also been lucky. I think I was lucky. I worked with the management team which was open to investing in technology.
00:13:02
Speaker
I didn't have a lot of budget issues as long as I was reasonable. I could communicate clearly the advantages, you know, introducing that technology yeah would bring.
00:13:12
Speaker
ah I was, you know, the the company was okay for me to experiment and, you know, see if it works. And, you know, more often than not, it worked. Yeah. You know, one of the things that you mentioned when you were at UPL was you were very hands-on in implementing a CLM.
00:13:28
Speaker
um I'd love to hear more about how you think legal tech helps prepare teams to scale or helps them prepare for the sort of growth that you experienced while you were at UPL. Sure.
00:13:39
Speaker
Okay. That's a good question. So, Tyler, I think without technology or without a platform like a CLM, it's very, very difficult to have one team or in people end up working in silos.
00:13:54
Speaker
I had that situation where I would not have visibility on, you know, what the teams in, for example, North America is doing, what the team in South America is doing and ah how ah how the contracts are getting, not, I think negotiation is one part, but how the contracts, ah the transactions are getting approved by the right stakeholder. And i'm not necessarily the legal team. I think legal team comes second.
00:14:22
Speaker
The first is that a particular transaction is is approved. The commercial risk which is being taken is approved. And ah there was, you know, just, there's just no other way to do it.
00:14:36
Speaker
And one of the reasons for implementing the CLM was that we would be able to have bring uniformity ah within the group and how the contracts are getting executed, how the contracts are getting approved, and how we create the right risk matrix with respect to who gets to approve what. and not I'm not talking about legal, sure but the commercial part of various you know, risk you take in a transaction, you know, who gets to approve what and do it in a, you know, make a checker concept where the person who's approving is not the person who's requesting. So I think that that could that could only be brought in with, you know, a platform like a CLM.
00:15:22
Speaker
I think you know yeah legal tech has also been very important as the world has shifted to a more remote environment. And obviously in 2020, and when COVID hit India, as well as the the rest of the world, um that sort of shift to remote was not optional, right?
00:15:40
Speaker
We may see changes now, but at that point in time, everybody had to go home. ah How do you feel like tech and legal tech helped you manage your team, keep your culture strong during that sort of time of a lot of uncertainty and change?
00:15:55
Speaker
Sure. I think, Tyler, unlike in the West and particularly in the US where a walk from home was kind of, you know, at least people understood what it was. Sure.
00:16:06
Speaker
I think other than the Bangalore tech world, work from home was not understood in India at all. you know I worked for a traditional ah manufacturing company in Mumbai and Mumbai, you know I wouldn't know anybody who worked only from home other than some people in the tech roles.
00:16:26
Speaker
So I think For us, it was, you know, we were lucky. ah We had implemented CLM, ah not globally, but almost we covered 70 or 60 to 70% of geography with CLM just before the COVID hit.
00:16:44
Speaker
And, ah you know, I was and pushing the team hard for adoption and it's not easy. And it's, you know, as you would know, CLM is not just about managing the legal team or convincing the legal team to to use it. i would have but instances where you know um a senior business person is not ready to approve something on um the system because you know whatever, you know he's never approved it and on on the system and probably for not having accountability, he would be happy not to do it through the system. so
00:17:18
Speaker
So I think we were we were lucky. we We implemented it in 19, but what happened with you know early 2020 when pandemic hit, pandemicam kit um we were kind of juggling on how to how to start working seamlessly, how to make sure that the team continues to function.
00:17:35
Speaker
And I think that timing was so it it was so, we were so lucky with that timing that the adoption kind of skyrocketed.
Joining a Founder-Led Tech Company
00:17:43
Speaker
you know we yeah We had the system, we were not using it. For example, people were used to doing signature manually.
00:17:52
Speaker
you know, manually and then the office, the EA will, ah you know, scan it and then send it PDF and send it to the counterparty. The counterparty will, you know, sign it and send back.
00:18:04
Speaker
These systems were available. CLM did have that system, but now people didn't experiment it or people didn't want to use it for whatever reason. But with COVID and work from home, ah the adoption you know became a lot more easier. It just accelerated everything.
00:18:20
Speaker
And I think the other thing was, and I was also lucky to work in a company where the IT infrastructure was there for to support work from home. Yes. ah we I remember, we i think we have been using, a we were using our Teams since 2018, I guess, 2017 or 2018.
00:18:40
Speaker
and But the adoption was not very high. We would still will have landlines. And all our offices are connected through that landline globally. So we would just call the landline rather than, you know, using Teams to call. Right. ah But, you know, with COVID and with work from home, we realized that it was lot more easy to connect with your colleague through Teams.
00:19:01
Speaker
And you actually don't need a landline at all or a mobile at all to talk to somebody. So I think that the adoption of Teams also improved. And I think with Teams adoption and the CLM functioning, our life became a lot more easier for the legal team.
00:19:18
Speaker
It's funny to think back to those days. I remember, you know, you'd go in and you'd call your lawyer or whatever from one of the conference lines in the conference table. You'd get into the office super early to talk to somebody in Europe and instead of just taking it from home, it was a very different environment.
00:19:36
Speaker
I mean, um' I work for a tech company and one of the things I found surprising, there was no landline here. yeah Nobody has a landline. And I was like, where is my phone?
00:19:46
Speaker
Then i saw that nobody has a phone. Yeah. That's a good segue. I mean, you've transitioned from sort of large, more traditional enterprises, conglomerates,
00:19:59
Speaker
to, you know, you spent time recently, about a year and a half, ah leading legal for a founder-led tech company, one of India's fastest growing tech companies. How did you navigate that, that sort of transition?
00:20:13
Speaker
ah Look, I joined Ola with my eyes is open. I knew that I had worked, my experience was primarily with a a sorted, you know established Indian company versus now working for or then working for Ola, which was ah found a founder-led, very high energy, high passion environment.
00:20:37
Speaker
ah But I think it was still challenging, as you rightly said, Tyler. It was not easy. ah you know, working at a tech company is a different ballgame than working in established company.
00:20:50
Speaker
And, um you know, it's, I think it's, you'd probably have heard it, you know, many people talk about it, but it's it's it's just amazing how much speed trumps over, you know, perfection, you yeah you know, it's it's execution that matters. You have to execute, execute, execute. And,
00:21:10
Speaker
There's just a lot of pressure around getting things done. And, ah you know, I think in in in a more traditional company, you have different interest groups in a company ah where, you know, if a decision is taken, you can question, you can, you know, you can get heard, you can,
00:21:28
Speaker
you know, try changing the narrative around it, etc. But in a founder-led company, it's very, very, as as you rightly said, it's a founder-led. So once that vision is very clear that you have to do it, you have to execute it, I think you have to just find out ways to execute that and, you know, get it done with minimum amount of risk for the company.
00:21:49
Speaker
What were the sort of skill sets that you felt like you drew on um or, you know, a mindset that you drew on to adapt to that environment and to to motivate your team and to feel like you were performing at a really high level in an organization like that?
00:22:08
Speaker
I think one is you have to be nimble. ah i mean, you have to be flexible in your in your thought process. And I think your appetite to take risk in a tech company, in a founder-led tech company, early growth company is much higher.
00:22:26
Speaker
i mean, I'm talking about not for lawyers, but for the organization. And ah because the growth of the company always trumps over, you know,
00:22:38
Speaker
the other What matters to the company is how fast it can execute and grow just because the amount of competition it
Scaling and Leadership in In-House Legal Teams
00:22:48
Speaker
has. So I think that that mindset was a major difference between the previous company and the tech company I worked with.
00:22:58
Speaker
ah When you joined, the team was pretty small. ah You were able to scale the team to 40 plus folks. What were some of the early growing pains there maybe, or how did you navigate that? How did you navigate growing the growing the legal org?
00:23:14
Speaker
I think Tyler, I mentioned, I gave that example of you know somebody trying to do an Indian lawyer, a team a member of my team sitting in Mumbai trying to do something in Brazil. Yeah.
00:23:25
Speaker
And you know it's not the most efficient way to do it. Yeah. ah You know, one, your language capability is restricted because, you know, people in Brazil talk Portuguese and the law and in, for example, in Brazil is very clear. If you can go and tell a court that, look, I've signed an English language contract.
00:23:46
Speaker
Yeah. I signed it, but I didn't understand when I signed um because I'm a native Portuguese speaker. ah ah You can actually get out of, you know, most of these contracts, particularly where external lawyers are not involved.
00:23:58
Speaker
And so so I think... Those were the initial challenges which we had. We're having a very small team managing a global business where 85% of his business ah came from outside of India.
00:24:14
Speaker
Managing it out of a small team based out of Mumbai was a challenge. And having also no technology or less technology than it should also made it little bit more challenging. But we outgrow this. I think the team grew, we implemented,
00:24:31
Speaker
tech solutions, not just ah on the contracting part, but various other things which we did, which improved our efficiency significantly. And we also ended up, you know, increasing the team.
00:24:43
Speaker
As you take on these sorts of GC roles, I'm also curious how how your mindset around leadership has shifted maybe? um you know How do you feel like ah your responsibilities change and the sort of mission, like the things that you have to let go of and the things that you have to pick up and really start to invest in, how has that changed as you've taken on GC roles, both at UPL and at OLA?
00:25:09
Speaker
Yeah, I think one change that happens is you start spending less and less time on the day-to-day operations or day-to-day ah routine matters.
00:25:23
Speaker
You end up spending more time on mentoring, you end up spending more time you know talking to your stakeholders, you end up spending more time on, there are issues on you know larger deals, which requires audience or certain kind of audience, certain kind of resolutions.
00:25:41
Speaker
I think you and end up spending more time there. You end up spending more time on compliance, making sure the company is and overall we compliant with the laws which impact it.
00:25:54
Speaker
ah So I think those are you know the things which which matter and which which is important. If you think about how you need to evolve in a GC role as a lawyer and a leader, I'd imagine you have to get some key hires around you right.
00:26:10
Speaker
What do you think those key hires are and and how do you get those key hires right to support you and empower you? ah Look, I think that's one of the most important function or the role of a GC to make sure that you end up hiring the right set of people.
00:26:29
Speaker
I would think, no, I won't go and name the roles, but it's important that you have the right level of experience in the team.
00:26:42
Speaker
And, and also, I think what I saw, or what I did when we moved from being, say, an under billion dollar company to, you know, whatever, five, you know, 10x, that is to create more specialized roles.
00:26:56
Speaker
ah You know, people were more generalist to start with initially, but we ended up having teams and people who were more, more specialized. So you'll have, for example, you know, who do other things also, but you know, specialize as a say a compliance head.
00:27:11
Speaker
um you know so You know, somebody who's who who understands sanctions very well. Sure. Somebody who understands FCPA very well. but Somebody who understands, you know, licensing well.
00:27:23
Speaker
And, you know, give them the right training. I mean, of course, first is you hire the right people, but also give them the right training, give them the right, you know, expertise so that they can grow and do well in that role.
00:27:38
Speaker
that role ah Maybe a last question sort of on on leadership. and You know, I think GCs play an important role in in helping set company culture.
00:27:50
Speaker
ah And as you've been at these organizations that have scaled and grown, you know, how did you sort of protect or maybe help company culture evolve in important ways as the company grew and the people changed?
00:28:04
Speaker
um I think, look, culture is always top down is my experience. yeah And I think I've seen, I've worked in know two organizations which are very different in culture, the role I had at OLA versus and on the role I had at UPL.
00:28:22
Speaker
And I think one of the things I did was that, look, let's create your own island. and um you know Let's create you know I'm the head of department for the legal function. I'm the one where the legal team spends time and energy.
00:28:39
Speaker
And my my objective has always been is to create a very conducive, harmonious and no work culture where people love coming to office.
00:28:53
Speaker
And one of the things I did, and I think that's where technology also helped me, is ah is where and I kept every told everybody in my team that look, we all have to go up the value chain.
00:29:05
Speaker
Let's get out of the mundane work we do every day. Let's you know, let's make a process like, let's implement technology so that we don't have to do the routine, regular work, let's go up the value chain. And I think, you know, ended up doing people were happy.
00:29:21
Speaker
Yeah, people ended up doing more critical roles where they had to think rather than, you know, just do something which is very routinely required. Yeah. So that was one. And I think the other one was, you know, giving them more exposure to, know, the broader company key stakeholders and making sure that, you know, look, this is what the culture of the company is. Just, you know, let's just, you know, understand that. And, you know, if you have, you know, and.
00:29:51
Speaker
So I think let me also take a step ah backward. I think one of the important way to align the culture is also ah to be careful with your hires.
00:30:02
Speaker
Yes. ah Like in my previous company, I wouldn't hire people who were overly aggressive. Yeah. ah Because that didn't fit the company culture. And hire people who were composed, you know,
00:30:14
Speaker
happy to work with, you know people find pleasure, yeah you know and happy to know in in a team work.
Handling Major Litigations and Regulatory Challenges
00:30:22
Speaker
yeah So I think those were the things I would i would think I would keep my sight on.
00:30:28
Speaker
Having that sort of good culture isn't always easy when you're managing things that are very high stakes. I want to ask you about a couple of those moments that that you've been through.
00:30:39
Speaker
ah You shared with me that you've done a sort of a number of large litigations outside of India, including in the US. um Maybe briefly just you know share a couple of those those stories, and then I've got a couple more questions for you around them and um lessons that other people could take away. Sure. yeah right Good question, Tyler. Thank you.
00:31:02
Speaker
So I think one is a more recent litigation which I did at Ola, a class action litigation in the UK, where the driver partners of Ola, so Ola operated in the UK until around a year back.
00:31:19
Speaker
and there was a class action litigation against the company. where the driver partners of OLA are alleged or claim that they have an employer-employee relationship.
00:31:30
Speaker
And therefore they're entitled to minimum wages, holiday pay, et cetera. Of course, the business did not work on those parameters. And I think all public knowledge. Uber ended up losing that case.
00:31:46
Speaker
Bolte ended up losing that case. We had a much smaller market share. But it was an easy litigation for the the driver partners to win.
00:31:57
Speaker
And they went after us. There was a it's a very, very US style class action. There was a you know ah plaintiff law firm which was kind of leading the charge. And with the revenue, whatever outcome driven engagement with the drivers. and I think that was very interesting when I took over know for the organization of spending a lot of money on legal fees.
00:32:23
Speaker
Sure. And ah I could help the company get a pretty well, a very good settlement out of that litigation just before we went for trial.
00:32:34
Speaker
And I think one of my... I think advantage which I bring to the table is also to look at the big picture. So when I was looking at that litigation, the phase one of the trial was about to start.
00:32:50
Speaker
And everybody just looked at that phase one that, okay, we are going to lose. Uber has lost. Bolt has lost. You know, it's just a question of, you know, you're wasting 10 days of court work and, you know, legal fees and this and that.
00:33:03
Speaker
And these are expensive litigations. I mean, the discovery was very, very contentious and very, you know, I was just surprised how US style it has become in the UK. But I think one day i was just thinking, and know, sitting and thinking that what is it we can do differently.
00:33:20
Speaker
And I started thinking about phase two of the litigation, which is not whether the employer-employee relationship exists, but whether we have given minimum wages. or not And actually went through one day, I was just sitting, I'm not very good with Excel.
00:33:34
Speaker
yeah Myself, i'm you know I think that's one of the, but I called one of my team member, you not a lawyer, but you know who was very, very good with Excel. So I had this whole data sheet of you know the drivers looking at you know their earnings and how much they rode.
00:33:51
Speaker
how much they were on the on the app, etc., in the UK. And then realize that, look, almost everybody has earned more than the minimum wages.
00:34:02
Speaker
Close to 100% were earning more than minimum wages. close to hundred percent were earning more than minimum wages So I went back and said, look, what is it? Are you fighting? I mean, even if we lose, right just this is what it is.
00:34:13
Speaker
And nobody had thought about it. I think everybody just focused on phase one. And that changed the whole narrative around settlement. ah hu ah So they were coming forward for settlement before. But I think after this discussion, i think the whole narrative on settlement changed. And they became a lot more amenable to no much smaller number on settling the litigation and we helped settle.
00:34:40
Speaker
I mean, that's a pretty interesting case to also bring to your executive team ah or to the founder of the business or the board about why you should settle. ah Talk to us a little bit about the role of the GC in in counseling the exec team on trade-offs around something like this and and how you make the case, basically. Sure, sure.
00:35:03
Speaker
Look, I think I alluded to the fact that one of the things I, or one person I you know ah really really admire in my career yeah is Charlie Munga.
00:35:13
Speaker
ah huh And he, as a lawyer, I think somewhere I remember he's saying that, look, if you have to communicate as a lawyer on on on a legal issue, don't just tell them what the the non-compliance would cost them, cost the business, but actually give them a live live example. And more often than not,
00:35:33
Speaker
give an are aggravated or exaggerated perspective of how what could happen, yeah what worse could happen. And I think that's that played that over a period of time, several times, even in this existing matter.
00:35:50
Speaker
i think this was a fairly easy yeah convincing, because just because the sheer amount of money we were spending on you know fighting this litigation, the trial upcoming trial in London and the need to fly people from India to be key witnesses and the cost saving. you know the numbers so The negotiation happened over a period of time, over a couple of weeks.
00:36:17
Speaker
and ah and the more I could tell my own executive team and founder ah that look, it does not make sense to fight because if you even if you're fight you fight, your legal cost itself on on phase one is going to be probably higher than the settlement amount.
00:36:38
Speaker
and ah and also the bad press is going to get you, you know, once you lose the case. Sure. And I think the other important point was, you know, in a class action, the class is always open, you know, break the class doesn't close.
00:36:52
Speaker
And the more people hear about an outcome which, you know, kind of favors, in this case, the driver partner, the more would come together, and they would come and, you know, claim. And, you know, the pot will increase. So it would just,
00:37:06
Speaker
ah you know ah it It was a very easy advice and easy convincing. And I'm thankful to the founder and the executive team to have understood that and agreed to to the settlement.
00:37:20
Speaker
um One other area that you've been working on that I think is interesting, we're not going to break news on this, but that's in the news is two-wheeler taxis. I mean, I've experienced Bangalore traffic both this time and the previous three times that I've been here.
00:37:37
Speaker
Two-wheeler taxis in Bangalore have faced regulatory pushback. what's What's going on with something like this? It actually doesn't seem all that dissimilar from the early debates around Uber and Lyft in the United States and sort of like taxi companies versus rideshare.
00:37:56
Speaker
um Tell us a little bit more about what's happening. Sure. So look, two wheelers were operating as taxis Bangalore and Karnataka until 15th of June.
00:38:07
Speaker
And it was operating under court order. um and I don't want to get into too much of detail on the law, but the the in India, all the aggregators, the parent legislation, with the which is the federal legislation, is is an act called Motor Vehicle Act.
00:38:24
Speaker
okay ah So the Motor Vehicle Act applies to all of India. ah It actually allows two wheeler taxis to operate. The law says that it can operate subject to regulation or regulation by the state.
00:38:41
Speaker
Now, the settled position is that no the state can put conditions on the operations of two-wheelers, but cannot stop it. They don't have that because they' the legislation is already allowed.
00:38:55
Speaker
It's a preemption question, basically. so But the state has its own reason for not allowing. And particularly in Bangalore, and um and there are a few reasons, but I think one important reason for them not allowing is ah it's a democracy.
00:39:13
Speaker
You have very, very strong interest groups. And the three-wheeler, the unions here are very strong in Bangalore. and ah there So the family, three-wheeler family is close to five to six lakh.
00:39:33
Speaker
There are 150,000, sorry. ah auto permits in Bangalore. And ah so and if you add that in the family into four, that's the um amount of vote bank you have.
00:39:47
Speaker
Right. And you displease this group of people by allowing two wheelers because that puts pressure on the three wheeler for bad or good or bad reason. Sure. And so the the the three wheeler unions never want the two wheeler taxis to comply to to play in Bangalore.
00:40:05
Speaker
So there's actually no no ban except for statement made by the state in the High Court saying that they will not allow two-wheelers to run and operate as taxis in in Bangalore.
00:40:17
Speaker
interesting They haven't come up with a paper. They have come up with a law which prohibits it because they cannot. But but you know because of this very interesting incentive system, it's it's not getting allowed.
00:40:33
Speaker
I had the the president and GC, first GC of Lyft on the podcast, and we talked a little bit about, I think, a similar situation and in some ways in California in New York. And um what's the role of the GC in your mind in counseling an executive team around a scenario like this or or a situation like this?
00:40:56
Speaker
What are the different factors that you want them to sort of like understand? I think I would tell them both the legal principle on where we stand and and where the aggregators stand.
00:41:12
Speaker
It's not just in, know, for example, in my case, not just the OLA case. Right. It is also an Uber issue. It's also a Rapido issue. it's all it's It's also an issue by most of the aggregators or primarily three.
00:41:26
Speaker
So, you know, make them understand the legal issue, make them understand the practical ah reasons so why it's not getting allowed. ah And, you know, the different pressure points on what works, what not.
00:41:42
Speaker
ah Make them understand about the collaboration. there There is some sort of a soft collaboration between different you know, aggregators because the objective is the same. Sure. That, you know, it should be allowed and make them understand that. And, you know, you know also make them understand the limitations of the Indian court system.
00:42:02
Speaker
Because, you know, sometimes they think that, look, if the law is so clear, then why why should it not be allowed? Right. And we have been all banging our heads on it that, look, we have been trying, we were actually trying very hard for the to convince the court to give us interim protection and allow us to to to operate.
00:42:22
Speaker
But the court, for one reason or the other, doesn't want to give any interim orders. So I think make them understand that as well.
Overcoming Barriers in Legal Tech Adoption
00:42:31
Speaker
ah And yeah, I think those are the things which I would do.
00:42:38
Speaker
As we start to to wrap up, I'm asking all of my guests, and i think you will have some great ideas around this given your ah interest in legal tech, propensity for adopting legal tech.
00:42:51
Speaker
I'm asking all my guests about some recent findings in a report that we we put out, um our 2025 contracting efficiency benchmarking report. um you know one thing we surveyed ah legal teams we found that while a lot of folks are aiming for automation um about 15 of teams out there are still just feeling like they're very reactive and they're not able to be proactive around contracting ah and they feel like technology um hasn't hasn't manifested itself or hasn't enabled
00:43:30
Speaker
the change that that that they wish to see. What do you think the blocker for these teams might be around getting to where they want to be with technology, right? If it's not the tech itself, um what could they do to to leverage technology better?
00:43:47
Speaker
i think the report talks about CLM, if I'm not... It does, yes. and i I think there are, in my experience, there are three or four things which could be a blocker.
00:43:58
Speaker
ah One is just the law of inertia. yeah You're just used to doing something in a manner and you don't want to make that change. So, you know, somebody needs to push that look change.
00:44:12
Speaker
So that's one. The second is also, and I think it kind of, interlinks with inertia is accountability. You know, I mean, I've experienced that and and and but when I was implementing it in my previous organization, there were sections of ah know businesses where they were not happy implementing a CLM. And the reason was that, you know, people are used to doing things in a certain way. Yes. I think CLM makes everything more accountable. You know, if you
00:44:46
Speaker
approved for example an exclusivity for a product and it's mapped in the it will get be mapped in CLM and it goes to a particular stakeholder and that person has approved it before you know legal science often it you know people some people will not like it because you know they have never been held accountable in so transparent a manner as they they would be once CLM is implemented so I think this second Third, I think, is also budget. And I'm talking more maybe, you know, from Indian context.
00:45:21
Speaker
You know, getting the right management support, ah being able to articulate the need for, say, a tech solution to the management, to, you know, the CEO or the C-suite, and convincing them why that budget is important and actually, you know, essential.
00:45:40
Speaker
and how it helps saving cost is, it would be important. I mean, I was just lucky, I think, to work with people who understood it. Yes. Well, I think I'll give you a very simple example, Tyler, where we could, you know, very simple things. We would struggle, for example, getting executed contracts back with legal tiup and department. We had one person who would just chase everybody to you know get that you know final signed contract in the system and it was just so difficult because
00:46:14
Speaker
you know, it's all on email, it's somebody has scanned and, you know, signed, scanned, sent. You know, I was just sitting with this the tech team and said, look, how do we solve it?
00:46:24
Speaker
You know, putting so much of effort, if we are unable to do it. There has to be a better way to do it. And we just integrated one of the digital signature platforms into the CLM.
00:46:36
Speaker
And instruction went out that now every signature will be through the system. And that problem vanished overnight. And I think those are the communications you have to go and tell C-suite people and, you know, the executive board that, look, this is the reason we need it.
00:46:52
Speaker
Otherwise, we are exposed and there's risk. One more question for you around efficiency. You know, we found across the survey group that ah two-thirds, basically 66% of teams are still taking longer than a week to close out their standard contracts.
00:47:12
Speaker
right? Do you feel like this is a process problem in in a lot of places, ah tech problem? there ideas you have for for driving efficiency um in in contracting process?
00:47:28
Speaker
I think it's it's a simple, if you take a week to, you know, to sign and execute your standard contract, I think there is some some gap in the system. People probably send emails and forget.
00:47:41
Speaker
ah Somebody, you know, some sometimes the signatories are not available. ah i i can't imagine that you're having prolonged negotiations on your standard templates. I think, you know, more often than not, people who would kind of, you know,
00:47:56
Speaker
with little negotiation, be able to close the contract. So I think that the tech and know intervention, one should be able to resolve this and reduce the seven days dramatically to maybe a couple of days
Career Reflections and Advice for Young Lawyers
00:48:11
Speaker
best.
00:48:11
Speaker
at best I've got some closing questions that I've been asking all of my guests for a while. um First one for you. Is there a piece of advice that you feel like was really impactful or changed the course of your career or a mentor that gave you that advice that was really important to you?
00:48:34
Speaker
think i I think the most important advice I, you know, I read actually from one of the very well-known lawyers
00:48:46
Speaker
said once that spend more time thinking about a matter than reading it. And I think that did make ah you know some difference ah in and in my output.
00:49:04
Speaker
I think all lawyers, including myself, know whenever you get a problem, you just start reading. And you don't you know you read whatever you could and you know try finding a solution to that problem, but you you don't spend enough time thinking about that problem.
00:49:20
Speaker
And I think that, you know, it's not easy. It sounds very easy. It's not easy. And I think some of it comes with experience, but your ability to to sit down and think about solving a problem, even a legal problem,
00:49:37
Speaker
has tremendous benefit and I've you know i've i've benefited tremendously with that one advice which I which i read from very senior jurist in India.
00:49:48
Speaker
That's great. Do you have a, I guess, looking back on your last year and a half at Ola, since now you're going to be taking some time off, which will be well-deserved, and the answer to this question may change, do you have a favorite part of your day-to-day? Did you have a favorite part of your day-to-day at Ola?
00:50:07
Speaker
I think my favorite part would be, you know, I think my team. i would i'm just I was just very proud of my team. It's a very high... a very efficient high productivity team and would just be a pleasure you know talking to them you know guiding them at times solving problems going out for coffees yeah and lunches together we had this fantastic you know culture where We would all get our food together, sit at on one table and, you know, share our lunch boxes and have lunch. And I think and know I miss those days where you sit with the team and, you know, have your lunch and, you and talk about problems and some sometimes, you know, help solve a lot of these problems while having those lunches.
00:50:58
Speaker
Yeah. Solutions can come in less formal settings on a walk or a run or at lunch. or and I think this is kind of a fun question or a funny question.
00:51:10
Speaker
Do you have a professional pet peeve? Oh, okay. I think there are many having people coming and telling, oh, I need it yesterday. And they won't say this to me so many times, but my yeah legal team members would would often hear this, that look, this is very super important. This needs to be done tonight.
00:51:33
Speaker
And I kind of know that, you know, having spent time in, you know, you know that look, this is not as urgent. Right. That's one of the, you know, things which always irritate me that look, hang on, spend that, give us some time to look at it look at it rather than, know, rushing.
00:51:54
Speaker
Do you have a book that you would recommend to our listeners? And I mean, this could be professional book or it could just be something that you've read recently or want to read that you think is is interesting.
00:52:07
Speaker
ah Look, I've i've been a... I have been reading, I've always read a lot and yeah know and I don't necessari necessarily mean legal books.
00:52:17
Speaker
right As I said, you I've been ah a biography nut. yeah I would have read almost all the biographies which I would you know i could get my hands on.
00:52:28
Speaker
and you know particularly the Americans, because they end up reading. And one of my favorite authors is Walter Isaacson. Sure, yeah. He has written some of these fabulous books on from Elon Musk to- Steve Jobs. Jobs, yeah. Leonardo Caprio, sorry, Leonardo da Vinci. Vinci, yeah.
00:52:49
Speaker
Presently, I'm reading a ah very interesting book called Singularity is Nearer. And it's a book on Gen AI. And it talks about how AI is going to rule the world and how transformational it is.
00:53:09
Speaker
But on the positive side, I think you hear about the more doomsday scenario for employment, etc. Yeah. With the progress of Gen AI. But you know he kind of argues that, look,
00:53:22
Speaker
like in the early 20th century or the mid 20th century, mid and know twenty and sorry nineteen fifty s etc. when ATMs came and the tellers were you know out of job for some time and everybody predicted that look it's going to very difficult for people to get jobs but the jobs transformed, the nature of jobs changed, but actually yes more opportunities came. So he is one of the leading guys. This book, I think is Ray Kurzweil, he's the author.
00:53:54
Speaker
And he predicts that you know by 2047, the you know that Neuralink, if you know, yeah about he says, you're Gen AI is going to merge with human mind.
00:54:11
Speaker
And your human mind will become exponentially more powerful. oh Maybe a thousand times, maybe a million times. There's just no limit. So it's just, you I've been reading about it, you know, just fascinated by and because it's on the positive side and not the negative side, you know, it's just very interesting. And I would think it'll be very interesting for anybody to read that book.
00:54:35
Speaker
I'll have to pick that one up. um My last question for you, Rohit, the question I close all my episodes with, it's if you could look back on your days as a young lawyer, maybe at the firm just getting started, one thing that you know now that you wish that you'd known back then?
00:54:57
Speaker
I think that would be, i didn't know how important maths is to a corporate lawyer. And with maths, I mean, you know, accounts and how balance sheets work and how, know, accounting entries work. And I wish I had known when I was in college.
00:55:15
Speaker
I'm reasonably, I'm better than most lawyers on numbers. But when I sit in ah you know, in a room where, know, there are charter accountants and CPAs and, you know, finance guys,
00:55:25
Speaker
they always outsmart you know lawyers and I wish I knew maths and algebra and as good as them. And you know that I think that would have made me a far better lawyer than what I am today.
00:55:42
Speaker
That's a good piece of advice. Understand the business's P&L and how to read a balance sheet. Rohit, this has been a really fantastic conversation. Thank you so much for joining me.
00:55:55
Speaker
Thank you, Tyler. Thank you for having me. And to all of our listeners, thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Abstract. And we hope to see you next time.