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S02E19: Anxiously Analyzing Andor Season 2, Act 3
17 Plays3 days ago
Aren't you a little long for a 15 minute Star Wars podcast? Yes, but... we have a LOT to talk about with these three episodes. Find out what Ben, Phil, and Bob thought about the Ghorman Massacre, then come back for the rest of the discussion on our next episode!
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Email: SFASpod@gmail.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Spoiler Warning
00:00:01
Speaker
We're talking about season two, episode seven, eight, and nine of Andor. And, you know, we'll do it as quick as we can, but this is a lot of process. Gumball Dungor, let's start. You've got mindless chores to do.
00:00:12
Speaker
Podcasts help you see them through. Star Wars is your favorite in it. Let's chat for 15 minutes. Aren't you a little short? Aren't you a little short?
00:00:24
Speaker
Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper? Welcome back to Short for a Stormtrooper. And wow, quite a week in Star Wars-dom with episodes 7, 8, and 9 of Andor. We're going to talk about that really quick, but just couple of things. First off, if you are coming here fresh from Coffee with Kenobi, where I was able to guest star with Dan ah just this last week, welcome. We're glad you're here. Hope you enjoy it.
00:00:53
Speaker
This is a 15-minute Star Wars podcast, usually. We're going go a little bit long for the next couple of shows because this is a lot to process, like I said, in the cold open.
Emotional Reactions to Episodes
00:01:02
Speaker
So bear with us. That's number one.
00:01:05
Speaker
Number two, I feel like I don't have to say it, but just to be safe, this is a very spoiler-laden conversation. So if you have not yet seen those episodes, you are insane for wanting to listen to this first.
00:01:17
Speaker
Go watch those episodes. Take a breath, take a deep breath, grab some coffee, come back and chat with us. Okay, let's dive in with Ben, Phil and myself talking about Andor season two, episode seven, eight and nine.
00:01:32
Speaker
Here we go. I thought I would start today, guys, but I don't know if I'm emotionally ready to talk about these three episodes. I'm still a bit shook.
00:01:44
Speaker
um i have I have four words. yeah Welcome to the Rebellion. Totally. Now, this this is what I wanted from an Andor arc.
00:01:56
Speaker
I have been waiting for this for six
Quality Comparison with Other Star Wars Media
00:01:59
Speaker
episodes. I was honestly, and you know I've discussed it on this podcast already in past episodes, I was a little disappointed, especially by the first three, to a lesser degree by the next three. There were definitely some strong points in the second and the second drop of episodes, but yeah see this is what I was looking for. And ah Believe me, I'm not happy with what went down. but Right. No, no, no.
00:02:20
Speaker
But like this but i'm I'm happy about the quality of television that we were given. um And man, do they pack an emotional punch, an emotional wallop, as you alluded to, Bob.
00:02:32
Speaker
um There's a lot to unpack here, but those those are just my like those are my emotions at the moment. Yeah, and Phil, in all fairness, like last week, you said in the green room afterwards, you said you hoped you didn't come off so to come come across as being too negative because you did like it.
00:02:48
Speaker
Sure. We did like it, but but there were it was a little bit of disappointment, which i which I get. I also felt that way about the first three. I didn't feel so much about four through six, but I do completely agree that from a quality of ah programming and film quality,
00:03:08
Speaker
I mean, I've got to say, like, if you consider this arc to be a film, as we have been doing, as we've been thinking about things and rating it, I'm putting it right at the top of all Star Wars. meet Me too.
Diverse Storytelling in Star Wars
00:03:21
Speaker
yeah and Yeah. And now at this point, as and also as part of you know the work ah for this podcast, work is the wrong word because i you know it's enjoyable. But I'm now seeing like a lot of the major Star Wars media.
00:03:34
Speaker
And I put it at like the top, if we're considering it as a singular film, at the top of any of you know of the films that I've seen in the Star Wars universe, which is, I think, a real testament to the quality of this.
00:03:45
Speaker
Yeah. Okay, Ben, what did you think? Yeah, what did you think? you know think what's fascinating about this, I'm kind of approaching it a little bit differently from where you guys are, because I'm not trying to rate it ultimately over other Star Wars offerings higher. Well, so first of all, I agree with you that the quality of it is amazing, and that's fantastic.
00:04:08
Speaker
But you know what's interesting is i feel like this is the one that teaches you that just like the superhero genre can be kind of a backdrop in which you can tell different kinds of stories. This is a kind of a Feige-ism, right? Like when they did Winter Soldier and they're like, we got Redford. We're talking about Marvel in case, you know, there, there are actually people who listen to our podcast who probably don't know Marvel as well, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So for the, for the recently initiated Kevin Feige, who kind of oversees all the Marvel creative development, he,
00:04:38
Speaker
when they released the second Captain America movie, right, this was much more of a political thriller and had a very different tone from the first kind of sepia-toned, period-action War II piece that was the first Captain in America.
00:04:51
Speaker
And it was certainly different from all the other Marvel movies to date. It was very much more kind of dark and conspiratorial and things like that. And people started realizing then that you could start telling other kinds of stories in the superhero genre, ah with superheroes as kind of the you know the set dressing, but it's not that kind of story, right?
00:05:11
Speaker
yeah um And we saw more of that with Guardians of the Galaxy. Anyways, Before I digress too far, the key thing that I think we learn from Andor is you can tell other kinds of stories in the Star Wars universe than those kind of pulp fairy tale stories that you get out of the Skywalker saga, right? Yes, absolutely.
00:05:28
Speaker
And you've heard me kind of um not complain here, but make the distinction that like, you know, there's some kinds of Skywalker stories that I wasn't this much of a fan of because I think they lost the thread of that kind of pulp fantasy, retro sci-fi kind of quality. Mm-hmm.
00:05:45
Speaker
Andor to me, earns and deserves its place as a really interesting adult dramatic thriller with some occasionally great action, great suspense.
00:05:56
Speaker
And I think we're going to more about that. but And it doesn't I don't feel like it has to be some other kind of thing. So I don't think Star Wars itself is one thing.
Suspense and Tension in Episodes 8 and 9
00:06:05
Speaker
I think it's lots of things. And I think we just learned one of the new things it can be.
00:06:11
Speaker
Yeah. So I kind of hear you saying it's an apples and oranges thing. it's it's really, really different, so it's hard to compare. And I also share the, I get a little uptight when I hear all sorts of rankings and arguing about positions of rankings. And I ascribe to the, I ascribe to the philosophy, i love all Star Wars. It's all great. it's all It's all ice cream, right?
00:06:35
Speaker
It's all ice cream. It's all good. But the thing is, is I do like chocolate a little bit more than I like strawberry. And I like strawberry a little bit more than I like vanilla. So If you're going to make me choose something ah and, you know, and that bar of quality is just in terms of filmmaking quality.
00:06:54
Speaker
That's what I'm thinking with with and or here, too. So but we're we're all on the same page. it It was some darn good television slash movie. Ben, do you want to take us down the the route of the suspense?
00:07:09
Speaker
Oh my gosh. There is so much paid off in episodes eight and nine, you know? Yeah. um I almost, I was surprised Phil, that you didn't start with RIP Cyril. We'll get to that.
00:07:22
Speaker
Okay. um Yeah. You know, i I think it was really fascinating trying to see how all these different characters finally brought together in the, the Plaza square in the capital Gorman, you know,
00:07:38
Speaker
we have the inciting of this riot. um You know, we have all the buildup stuff in episode seven to that, and it finally starts paying off in in eight. And then we see it, interestingly, have these repercussions that go out in episode nine too. So, you know, in eight, it's just, oh no, it's going to happen. Oh no, how bad is it going to be?
00:07:59
Speaker
And then, you know, there's this amazing set of dramatic action. And then in nine, it's, all right, let's find out, can Mon Mothma do this? Can Cassian get her out? Like, you know, there's a lot of nerves on the edge of that one. So I was amazed that they managed to sustain that level of, ah what do you want to call it? Suspense or or tension in over two episodes.
Analysis of the Gorman Massacre
00:08:24
Speaker
100%. I'll say a bit about episode eight, specifically the Gorman massacre. I'll say that, you know, I think as you said, Ben, there's a lot of anticipation and kind of buildup in episode seven around it.
00:08:37
Speaker
And it is just, I think, more horrific than i could have ever imagined. And the scale of destruction and death of which they show on screen, I think is unprecedented.
00:08:49
Speaker
Like what they're, what, and like, it's because they show it in such close detail, there is kind of like an intimacy to it that just makes it all the more horrifying. um So that was, I think the way they executed that, um the way I was feeling was, I thought, again, like to go back, it was, you know, I think top tier television in that way, but man, it was just horrifying.
00:09:11
Speaker
And I mean, ah you know, the darkest moment of the season, maybe the series up to this point. um Let's talk a little bit about Cyril. ah You know, I've never seen him like this. We've never seen him like this. The viciousness, the anger with which he shows towards Cassian. And then that brief moment where Cassian says, who are you?
00:09:33
Speaker
Yeah. and You see a little bit of like realization on Cyril's face like this man has defined my life for the last few years and he has no idea who I am. Right. to And then just as he's realizing that he reaches his end. um And it really is almost a moment, even though he's beating up and about to kill our main protagonist, there's oddly for me a moment of like where I've had the most sympathy for him the entire series. Right.
00:10:02
Speaker
And then as soon as that happens, he meets his end because he realizes that the Empire is a sham. He thought he was dedicating his life to something that brings order to the galaxy, that protects the galaxy.
00:10:12
Speaker
But it's just the opposite. They bring order and cha disorder, chaos, destruction. And he has this realization and then he has no opportunity to act on it.
Cyril's Character Arc and Death
00:10:23
Speaker
so lets can say you think Do you think he would have had like a redemption arc if he had survived the plaza? Do you think you would have...
00:10:30
Speaker
you know, converted to the rebellion. I could see a redemption arc for serial based on what, what seemed like his headspace at that point. i I mean, who knows, right. What they, what they would have done with that if they decided not to kill him off.
00:10:43
Speaker
ah He, yeah he, he may have, because one thing I noticed when I was rewatching it yesterday. So again, it took me like five days before I was emotionally ready to sit through and watch them all again, but I did it yesterday when,
00:10:57
Speaker
Right at the moment that, you know, that that Cassian says, who are you? And he kind of looks at, looks at him with that look of like, what the heck? Like I have been obsessed with you for the last two years, three years, however long it's been.
00:11:14
Speaker
I have been obsessed with you. Like my life is centered around finding you and you don't even know who I am. He lowers the gun barrel just a little bit. Like, you know, that's catching him off guard and maybe he's not going to shoot him. And then boom, he gets capped in the head.
00:11:30
Speaker
And yeah so, yes, there could have been a redemption arc for him. And I think in pretty much any other Star War that probably would have happened because redemption is such a core theme of Star Wars.
00:11:43
Speaker
But I'm really glad it didn't happen here because I think it just kept it so real. And the the suddenness and the shock of of him going out like
Enza's Death and Collateral Damage
00:11:55
Speaker
that. I was absolutely shocked.
00:11:57
Speaker
ah You know what else? the other The other death that really shocked me was Enza. You know, she she falls out in the crowd and the KX droid just comes, picks her up by the spine, throws her, boom, she lands, she's dead.
00:12:12
Speaker
Like, here's a character we've devoted some time to get to know. And it is hardly like the, you know, the death of a hero. It is just collateral damage, which I think again, is a theme through this whole thing. It's just collateral damage left and right. And yeah, makes me a little bit nauseous.
00:12:31
Speaker
Something I didn't say in past episodes of this podcast as we've been reviewing, but one of the kind of ominous things that hangs over this whole series is hey, wait, if they're introducing something that I've never heard of, that means it doesn't survive, possibly.
00:12:48
Speaker
It could be that it's just anonymous, but like, if it was a big deal, you know, let's let's imagine there's some, like take somebody like Luthan, you know, like Luthan, right? Grail. Yeah. Yep. um We've never seen him in any other Star Wars media that was dated after this period. And so there's some little part of you that goes, oh, I think he's doomed.
00:13:08
Speaker
And I thought that about Gorman when they started, I was like, we've never heard about Gorman. And they're setting this up like this is a big, a well-known planet. It's a big deal. The news that's happening there.
00:13:19
Speaker
And that means ultimately that Gorman is going to get trashed. you know Well, Ben, I'm actually. oh, oh. Had you been on top of Star Wars Rebels and a few and Clone Wars. Yeah, you would have heard about Gorman before.
00:13:35
Speaker
So it's a little bit of a deep cut. But the Gorman Massacre was something well known, which, by the way, guys, I don't know if I mentioned this to you. If you haven't yet, go to Disney Plus, go to Rebels.
00:13:46
Speaker
Watch season three, episode 18. It's the direct aftermath of this. It's called secret cargo is the name of the episode. And you see what happens to Mon, uh, from the end of this episode, uh, all the way through.
00:13:59
Speaker
One of the things that happens is she gets a horrific haircut. It's a terrible, it's a terrible haircut. Like the greatest crime of this arc. Yeah, exactly.
00:14:11
Speaker
Exactly. Isn't it funny? I was thinking through this whole thing. It's like, yeah, it's terrible. And you know, all these people died and it's awful. And just how it's so much more of an emotional reaction than the destruction of Alderaan, which it millions of people, right? I was, as I was saying this, like the dark, I think just a few minutes ago, the darkest moment, I had that thought back to Alderaan. And yeah i think,
00:14:36
Speaker
The reason for me that it feels more horrific and more dark is what I said earlier, which is the intimacy of it. You can see everybody getting shot with the blast. You can see the bodies falling. You can see everybody running on top of each other.
00:14:48
Speaker
Alderaan, you just see an explosion, right? And it's right it's that different, that like level of, ah that personal level with which we like see this death and destruction, I think makes all the more horrific for us. Because it puts us right in the middle of it as the
Emotional Impact of Personal Storytelling
00:15:00
Speaker
viewer.
00:15:00
Speaker
yeah Yeah. We'll also compare that when we do finally get around to watching Rogue One again with how they film both the Death Star attacks on ah the planet that Saw Gerrera's on. Yeah, Jedha.
00:15:14
Speaker
And then later Scarif. And you you the the the level of ominous apocalyptic menace that you get out of the Death Star there is so much more than what we got when it was Alderaan.
00:15:29
Speaker
Yeah, when the laser is like at a sixth power, right? So it's just doing damage as opposed to nuking the whole planet. Yeah, you're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. But it does show how, you know, it's really easy to kind of look at things from a high lens and be very abstract about it and just be like, well, that's just the way it is.
00:15:49
Speaker
And then when you get it down to a lower level lens and you're talking about, quote unquote, real people and the impact that things have on real people, that's where it gets sobering very quickly.
00:16:01
Speaker
Well, and I think that's going back to that thing i s saying earlier about the difference in tone and style of story. Yeah. The way that they did that in a new hope in the original OG episode for star Wars is very reflective of a kind of a flash Gordon approach to the material, you know, um that kind of stuff happens in that kind of setting, big sweeping, bold moves. And you don't spend a lot of time focusing on,
00:16:24
Speaker
How much did everybody suffer? You know it as an abstraction, but you're not really brought into empathy with but people at that point.
Conclusion and Call to Action
00:16:31
Speaker
We will stop there for now. We will come back with the rest of our review on Thursday. So stay tuned for that.
00:16:37
Speaker
In the meantime, tell your friends, hit like, hit subscribe, do all the things. May the force be with you. we'll see you soon. Bye-bye.
00:17:01
Speaker
Aren't you a little short for us?