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The Truth Of The Matter is - Episode: 134 Special Guest - Anna McLaughlin
37 Plays10 months ago
My guest today is an old friend, Anna McLaughlin, mother of four and founder of She Considers a Field, a community built around encouraging women of God to be faithful in the little things. She's a retired corporate lawyer who has focused her time on homeschooling her children and has established an incredible community on Facebook with her group called She considers a field and will be launching a podcast called The God Who Sees Me in January. Today, in our conversation, we discussed a lot of different topics, including her personal testimony. The last time you heard from Anna was on episode 114 Bible Study Reflection Solo or W/Friends. Today, you'll have the opportunity to personally get to know more about how God has shaped her into the person God has created her to be so tuned in, if you don’t mind. You won't want to miss this conversation, for it is full of ups and downs, ending with purpose and direction.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Goals
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to a special edition of the Truth of the Matters podcast. I'm your host, Jonathan, and I'm here with our special guests. But before we introduce and welcome her inappropriately, let's begin by recognizing and appreciating all our new and consistent listeners.
00:00:19
Speaker
We thank you all in advance for continuing to press play at your own convenience. If you are a first-time listener, we want you to know that the Truth for the Matters podcast is all about providing an honest, contextualized, history-historized, philosophical, psychological view of the Bible through the use of hermeneutics, while sharing some personal experiences with myself and Daniel and our special guests. We believe in applying God's Word to everyday life.
00:00:44
Speaker
Today, we praise God for another new testimony that we will hear. We hope after hearing this woman of God, that you will realize that a journey with Christ will guarantee that your life will never be the same. Also, we hope that you'll be encouraged and uplifted to see that relationship with God was good, and it's going to be good because he wants relationship with you, not religion.
Guest Introduction and Morning Routines
00:01:08
Speaker
Without further ado, let's invite our guest, Anna McNufflet. How are you doing this morning?
00:01:13
Speaker
I'm doing wonderful. Thank you so much for having me, Jonathan. Yes. So what would you say is a consistent thing that you do every morning that could be helpful to someone that's listening and they are a new believer?
00:01:29
Speaker
Every morning I make a point of getting up and spending some time with Jesus. And there are some times I have four children ages five to 11. So there are some times when there's a kid on my lap, there have been times where when they were younger, I would get interrupted. But even if it's just in those little years, sometimes it was just a minute or two, but I would get on my face before him and I would spend some time with Jesus because he's my first priority.
00:01:52
Speaker
Okay, so before we get into a little bit about you and what a walk, what Christ has been for you and some of the ups and downs and some of the journeys in your faith walk, we believe in praying here on the Truth and the Matters podcast, so that's what we're going to do. Heavenly Father, Lord, in Jesus name, we're there two or three are gathered, Lord, meeting together as your followers.
00:02:13
Speaker
there you are among them. Lord, so we invite you into this conversation. We thank you for this opportunity that you've given me and Anna. We don't know each other personally, but one thing we have in common is that we have relationship with you. Lord, we thank you for this opportunity because even though we're a part of one, we're all part of one body as believers, we can also grow a relationship by just having dialogue, by being musically encouraged by one another's faith. Passes in Romans chapter one verse 12, Lord.
00:02:43
Speaker
the truth of the matter is appreciates the time she has set aside to provide us with her personal testimony and what you're doing in her life lord so i pray that having this conversation with anna will open the door to all hearts minds saved or unsafe lord open all eyes to see or ears to hear or hearts to receive or minds to understand let all who are listening be blessed and lead with a different perspective on life
00:03:06
Speaker
and with you, Lord. And with that, Lord, we understand that we are guilty of our association by being with you. So we have to let our light shine before others so that they may glorify you, Lord. To Lord, we say these things confidently and with joy. In Jesus' name we pray, amen. All right, Anna, so how can we get started here? Okay, so here's an interesting question that I can ask.
Anna's Faith Journey and Challenges
00:03:31
Speaker
What would you say when you started
00:03:36
Speaker
You became a believer, you started following Christ. What was the most challenging thing that you've dealt with or you felt that was happening in your faith walk?
00:03:46
Speaker
So I became a believer when I was about 11 and it was right before, right in the middle of a season of tumult in our personal life, my family's personal life. So my parents had just divorced, my dad had remarried, and then my dad contracted cancer shortly after I became a believer and was paralyzed by the chemotherapy. It was an experimental chemo.
00:04:07
Speaker
And so moving into my teen years, I was just very unmoored personally. I felt the effects of my family's breakup and my dad's illness and subsequent absence because he was just focusing on surviving during most of my teen years very acutely. So I thought that, and I remember when I accepted Christ, I kind of
00:04:31
Speaker
I wasn't really shepherded by anybody. I was in a non-believing home, and so I didn't understand how the faith worked. So I remember thinking, I'm going to wait until I do something bad, and then I'm going to accept Christ, and then I'll never do anything bad again, because that's how this works.
00:04:46
Speaker
Like all of us who are in Christ know that's ridiculous, but I didn't have anybody leading me and teaching me otherwise. And I wasn't advanced enough in studying the scriptures for myself to really recognize that's not how it works and that's not what he calls us to. So as I went on in my teen years, I really feared that I wasn't actually saved because I just kept sinning.
00:05:10
Speaker
And really, because of when I'd become a believer, kind of the worst choices were still ahead of me after coming to faith. You know, all of those teen years, all of that time of just feeling so uncertain of my identity and looking for meaning, looking for value. And so I think the biggest challenge for me as a young believer was just coming to understand the goodness of God and that sanctification is a process.
00:05:39
Speaker
It's not an on-off switch. It's actually okay for it to be messy. And that's how we learn trust. Yeah. I like what you said because I also struggled with that too. And I think what really got me thinking deeply about God's Word and trying to see how this thing works is that I think there are certain books in the Bible that are for mature Christians.
00:06:02
Speaker
And there are certain books in the Bible where you're in this transition of understanding that it's a process. So I think for an example, the passage in Rome is, I believe it might be chapter seven or chapter eight that speaks about the things that I don't want to do, the things that I keep doing and the things that I do want to do.
Understanding Sin, Grace, and Faith
00:06:19
Speaker
Yes. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, there was that aspect of like, OK, it's a battle. I have to war against my flesh. And then I go to Hebrews and it's like, hey, don't continue with the elementary ways of thinking, right? Eventually, you have to do away with those things. So it's interesting because when you do talk to some believers, the challenge is they're saying, well, the Bible is contradictory. I said, no, it's more of like a paradoxical thing. It's like you have these stages. I said, you know, in life,
00:06:47
Speaker
we live our lives on levels, we arrive in stages and it happens in seasons. And some people in their maturity in Christ is different. We're not all on the same level. So, you know, in one aspect, you know, I use another example, like Corinthians talks about, you know, not doing certain things that can cause your brother to stumble, right? But then you have to understand too, that having knowledge of that causes you to change the way that you approach things.
00:07:16
Speaker
have an understanding also is realizing that there are some believers that don't struggle with that. So should we hold every Christian to the same standard? No, it's just ebbs and flows of the relationships and the people around you, the maturity in Christ, which then shows that, like you said, God's grace and mercy is always going to be there. It's just that we shouldn't be hard on ourselves because we get past this, that there's no condemnation for the believer, right?
00:07:42
Speaker
So it gets very complicated, depending on the experience of how long someone's been walking with Christ. And we tend to beat ourselves up when we're trying to strive to be better. And then we're finding ourselves caught up in this stage of just continuously sinning and then asking for repentance. So let me ask you this, what over your relationship with Christ, what would you say repentance has meant to you?
00:08:12
Speaker
So, my understanding is the meaning of the word means a changed mind, that we thought one way, and we come to think another. And the only way that happens in the heart of a believer is through an encounter with Jesus.
00:08:25
Speaker
And so repentance to me, I almost think of it like there's the parable Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan, and he talks about this pact that Christian wore and these burdens that he carries.
00:08:42
Speaker
And I like to think that as I continually in my daily life turn towards Christ in ways that are big and small, sometimes I have big things to repent of, but there are lots of little things, day to day, little moments of sin and failure, that it's just another burden being taken out of the pack.
00:09:00
Speaker
So that I can stand taller and see his gaze more clearly. So for me, repentance really, it's, it's the, uh, I'll say to my children when they're struggling with something, I'm like, as Christians, we're spoiled rotten. Like there is always a path back to grace. There's always a path back to Jesus. Like when we encounter these struggles and challenges, when we encounter our own sin face to face.
00:09:23
Speaker
There's somewhere to go with that. Like no other faith offers you a place to go when you're encountered with your own sin other than we'll do better next time. Like as long as you improve every day, then maybe you'll make it to whatever that tipping point is where you get to go to heaven if it's a faith that believes in heaven. And the whole point of the Christian faith is you can't. You cannot. You can't do it and you don't have to because someone else did it for you. So it's just, it's everything, right? It's our special gift that only we get as believers.
00:09:52
Speaker
Yeah. So yeah, I like what you said about the repentance thing. Because in my beginning stages of repentance, I thought of just forgiveness. Oh, you know, just ask for forgiveness. And then when you realize that, hey, God is calling you to be better than that, right? You know, when we will
00:10:08
Speaker
when God created us from the dust of the earth and he
Balancing Faith with Relationships
00:10:11
Speaker
breathed life into us, I think what it is, God wants us to stand above where we came to be who he wants us to be and that caused us standing the soles in our feet and being prideful in the fact that we are not just in relationship with Christ but we're part of one body and part of one body caused us
00:10:31
Speaker
not to experience wrath, but salvation and grace. So the way you put it in terms of turning away, I think of Hebrews 4.15, where it talks about how Jesus can empathize with what we struggle with, not to say he sinned because he obviously never sinned, but he understands what it is, the human, this flesh of ours, the things that we struggle with, the things that we have,
00:10:59
Speaker
hard times trying to overcome. So that leaves me with this question. When you realize that, okay, you know, God is calling me to be better. God is calling me to do better. What would you say is something that you realize immediately
00:11:17
Speaker
when you started getting around others, unbelievers, and you were trying to balance between living right, but also still having a relationship with people that didn't believe or acknowledge God. What were some of the challenges and thought processes that went through your mind and trying to balance the two?
00:11:38
Speaker
I think back on my high school years of cringe, I struggled deeply with this. I tended to vacillate between fully of the world. And I think in my brokenness, that passage in James, I think it's the first chapter where it talks about an unstable man, tossed by the wind and waves, looking in a mirror, doesn't know who he is. That was me. I think it's Song of Songs talks about
00:12:05
Speaker
let my love be a wall and not a door. And I was a door. I just swung back and forth based on who I was around and what they thought and what they said. And then on the other side was this heart that loved Jesus. And so I
00:12:20
Speaker
I would just be in this wrestle between my flesh and my spirit, which was, my spirit was as a child, I was a child of God, and yet my flesh was very weak in that time in my life. And so I was very messy, but very much in love with God and what he offered to me. And so there were seasons where I was just, I looked the same as everybody around me.
00:12:48
Speaker
And then there were seasons where I kind of beat him over the head of the Bible. Don't you see? Don't you see how good he is? Don't you see how loving? And I remember I had a friend, a mentor of mine in my 20s who said, Anna, I don't want your God. He's mean. He is aggressive. He's judgmental. Of course, she didn't mean the God of the Bible. She meant the God that I was reflecting to her through my own self condemnation and legalism.
00:13:16
Speaker
And it took me some time to really sit with that, but it was one of the greatest gifts that anyone gave me at that point in my life to realize I know that God is not that way, but the way that I view Him is very much as a, you know, as a punitive, just cruel judge. No mercy, no grace. And so that was a real turning point for me in my faith to realize
00:13:44
Speaker
Love first, right? Only love here. Like that that's where it must be in. And then ultimately, he's the judge, right?
00:13:53
Speaker
Yeah. So you mentioned that growing up, you were the only Christian in the home and your parents weren't. Were they just not believers of anything? Were they atheists? Were they believers of God, but they didn't know how to express that or, you know, put that in context? What would you say? How could you put that in word that for us?
00:14:14
Speaker
Yeah, so I was raised in a church that was more moral deism. There is a higher power. It's a loving God. He kind of set the ball in motion, but you can get to him any old way that you want to.
00:14:31
Speaker
And so we, I learned about, I remember distinctly, like I remember where I was sitting, cause this was also after I had already become, become a Christian. Um, the pastor speaking from the pulpit about the passage where there's a, there's a woman who is, I think she's a Gentile, she might be a Samaritan and she's coming and asking the Lord for a healing. And he says, um, he says basically like.
00:14:56
Speaker
you can't because you're not Jewish. And she says, well, even the dogs eat the crumbs from the master's table or something to that effect. And he talked about how Jesus was wrong and this woman corrected him. And I was like, where is he ever wrong? And so we have to wrestle with those passages. What does that mean? And all of that. But there was no kind of foundational belief that Jesus was God and that he was the path to salvation.
00:15:25
Speaker
So my father came to Christ. So that was kind of where both of my parents seemed to fall. And there just wasn't a lot of talk of faith or anything like that. My dad went on to become a believer through his cancer journey. And so that was something that we shared later on in going into my adulthood and through the end of his life. So we know in passage, I think it's Corinthians seven, or it might be eight, seven into eight, where it speaks about
00:15:56
Speaker
Two parents, one can be a believer and one can't, but the fact that one is, that sanctifies the children, right? And I would believe that would be you in this case. Were you a single child or you had brothers and
Generational Faith and Parenting
00:16:09
Speaker
sisters? I have a brother and then I have a half sister. Okay. Do you know if they're believers now or not really?
00:16:19
Speaker
Not yet. Okay. Well, I appreciate the not yet, right? That means that there's still time. It's not over. Right? Always. Yeah. But one thing that's fun about my family, Jonathan, because I wondered, where did I come from? You know, I wasn't really raised.
00:16:34
Speaker
hearing about the word of God. But I found when I was later on in my childhood, I found a Bible that my great grandmother had signed where she committed to sharing the gospel with others and she'd signed a statement of faith. And then I've heard stories about her over the years. And so I believe that, you know, it says just like what you said, the passage about, you know, one faithful parent, but it also says the blessings of God extend to the
00:16:59
Speaker
and I feel like her faithfulness was what opened the door for me to come to Christ. And then I really view myself as the point of redemption in my family line. And so I view my work as to love everybody in my family and pray for them in the hopes that they'll come to faith as well because of the work that he did through my great-grandmother. So we actually named my daughter after her in honor of this woman that was my start.
00:17:25
Speaker
So talk to us a little bit about raising a family with a generational worldview. This is one of my favorite conversations. Yes, I love the long view because I found, so for me, it's been, yeah, I came to Christ at 11. My teens, my twenties were deeply tumultuous times, even after being a Christian. So I spent the first two decades of my walk with the Lord going,
00:17:52
Speaker
What am I even doing? I love you. I want to serve you. And I'm just, you know, I'm just struggling in my life. I had some mental health challenges. I had some postpartum issues after my children. And so for me, it's been such a comfort to realize in plumbing the depths of the scriptures that our God is a God not of years, months and years, or even decades at times, but of generations, that he starts to work in one family and he extends it.
00:18:18
Speaker
to the generations after and after and after and so for me that's been a very comforting thought as a parent and also very it calls me to account because the choices that I make today aren't just about today and they're not just about me and my kids they're about my grandchildren and my great-grandchildren and my great-great-great-grandchildren and so it really calls me to
00:18:40
Speaker
the little things of I'm you know my daughter and I are in a tiff and I'm gonna get up off this couch even though I don't want to and walk into the other room and own my part and apologize. You know those little moments actually really matter because they're all eternal things.
00:18:56
Speaker
So you mentioned that your homeschool kids, as a person that was going to public school, speak a little bit about that experience, right? Because I've always been curious, like, how does that work? I've never, that's an interesting, like, I think when you go to college and everything, you fill certain things out, like, everything's just taken care of. But the homeschool aspect of it, I'm pretty sure there's a bit more that goes into it. Yeah, talk a little bit about that. Yeah.
00:19:24
Speaker
Thankfully, it's becoming more mainstream. So it's not just, it's easier to find resources than it was, I think, when we were growing up. But for us, the goal behind homeschooling was really to educate the whole child. I went to law school. I was a lawyer for five and a half years. And when I was in law school, I remember feeling like my brain was melting down because the goal in law school is let's don't teach you what to think, but let's teach you how to think.
00:19:51
Speaker
Let's teach you how to think critically and you with your expertise in history and philosophy. I'm sure you've wrestled with these things as well. How do we think, you know, how do we engage with the text that's before us? What questions do we need to ask? Where are the fallacies? And so I wanted to offer that to my children. I didn't just want them to go to school and learn reading, writing, arithmetic. I wanted them to truly have a
00:20:14
Speaker
have an opportunity to have a worldview that could see issues from all different sides and really could understand and engage with the Bible and other texts to understand why Christianity is the true faith.
00:20:29
Speaker
and what makes it different from others. And so we kind of made a decision, because it's been messy. We had four kids in six years. And so for many of these early schooling years, especially with our oldest, we were just trying to get through the day. It's not a perfect system, but we were very clear from the beginning on what we wanted, which was we wanted our children to love the Lord their God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength. And we wanted them to be intellectually curious. We wanted them to engage with the world. And if we could teach them
00:20:59
Speaker
how to think and teach them to enjoy thinking through things, then we thought that they could learn anything they needed to for the work that the Lord had for them in their adulthood. Okay. I see that. I get the question asked all the time because, you know, I call myself the Christian philosopher and they say, that doesn't make any sense. How can a Christian be a philosopher? And I said, well, it was easy, like do the lens of scripture.
00:21:23
Speaker
I believe it's Proverbs 9 and 10 says, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. And they look at the word fear there. They look at it wrong. It really means reverence. So to have respect for something or someone. So I have respect for God. And therefore, Christianity in a philosophical lens, they should be diametrically opposed or musically exclusive. But I said, no, I view the scripture through the biblical lens. And I know philosophers like to think away from the scripture.
00:21:53
Speaker
In other words, they want to view it through their own lens. And I don't trust anything that I can forge and think of separate without a compass. So you can be thoughtful and inventive in your own way, but how far is that going to go? That's always been my thought process. I do remember when I took a specific class in philosophy, I think it was called essentialism, it was a level four class.
00:22:19
Speaker
And we studied this guy named Heidegger, who's a German philosopher. He came up with terms like Diesein, which is like human existence. And those things were very cool, right? But in the context of reality, they were just ideologies that he made up, right? And I think a lot of times in human society,
00:22:38
Speaker
when someone comes up with a theory or idea, I think a lot of it is rooted in scripture. I think they don't just want to give it back to the person who originated the thoughts and the ideas that stem from it. They just want to call it their own. And I think that's where you kind of get the mix up and the confusion. So as a person that's gone through the law
00:22:59
Speaker
the lawyer experience. Would you say that going there, did it challenge your faith at all? Because there are theories and ideas that in law school, they tear up the legitimacy of the Bible and they rip it and to try to shed it and say how it's illogical. But what's interesting to me is at one point of another, at least especially Jewish culture, the law and religious austerity was one.
00:23:27
Speaker
So can you talk a little bit about that experience for you?
Law, Faith, and Societal Issues
00:23:31
Speaker
Did your faith ever take a hit when you were studying law? You know, studying law actually fortified my faith. I had the opportunity to work with some Christian legal organizations that, so the year after my first year of law school, I interned with an organization that is now called Alliance Defending Freedom. It had a different name at the time.
00:23:53
Speaker
And then and basically they gave us the the tools to make an argument for the for the faith that we have right to be solid on our on what we believe and so we looked at you know we looked at Roe versus Wade and we looked at the you know the Planned Parenthood versus Casey was the follow-up
00:24:16
Speaker
text or the follow-up case to that and we looked at we looked at mere Christianity and we looked at natural law and what you know what how does natural law play into the legal system that we have in the United States and it's been some time ago now so it's not it's not as fresh in my mind as it could be but that experience really gave me a confidence to say I know that this is true and it holds up and if you look at the Old Testament what I've actually the New Testament to what I found so compelling that I wish we
00:24:45
Speaker
had more, you know, I feel like sometimes Christianity in our culture today can focus a little bit over much on the experience. I know God's real because I felt him in my life. I know God's real because of how he's changed me. And, you know, the Jewish culture didn't really work that way. We know he's true because he's proven himself true.
00:25:07
Speaker
And he's proved himself true through the miracles and the signs and wonders, but also scripture is literally dozens of eyewitness testimonies. And so we look at the court system and we look at the power that's put on the eyewitness testimony. And here we have dozens of eyewitnesses who were they were there. And not only were they there, but a large majority of them, the prophets and then the apostles of the New Testament, lost their lives and never recanted their testimony.
00:25:34
Speaker
they never went back on their story. And you think about how unbelievable it is to have a text that spans centuries that is contributed to by dozens of people. They all say the same thing. They're capturing different facets of the same God and not one of them ever recanted even to the point of severe torture and loss of life. It's unbelievable. Of course we can believe it, right? Because how else would it
00:26:03
Speaker
Like what other book has been put under the amount of scrutiny that the Bible has and it's never been proven false.
00:26:10
Speaker
Yeah, talking about one of my favorite passages, Hebrews 11, I call it the Hall of Faith, where you have the definition of faith, right? Faith is the substance of things, hopeful evidence of things I've seen. And there you have, I think it's from verse 30 to 40, you have all these individuals that stood on their beliefs through torture and through different versions of being killed, and yet they still believed and they wish to see what it is that we're able to see now.
00:26:38
Speaker
So, you know, I completely agree with you, because, you know, I, I get the arguments all the time about it, and especially in the philosophical world, like, it was a conversation I was having, I want to say two weeks ago, when the person asked me, they said, you know, is God a murderer or a killer was the question.
00:27:00
Speaker
I said, oh, I said, he's a killer. And he said, well, what's wrong with that concept of thinking? I said, well, technically, if we're being honest, right? And I had to give him the whole breakdown. I believe it's Exodus 20. He speaks about, you know, that we should not be killing. Or he says, there's two different ways we could view this.
00:27:22
Speaker
One, he says that when he kills, it's either you're killing with a reason or you're killing unjustly, right? So if Christ or God actually was a murderer, then you will have to find evidence that his killings were unjustified.
00:27:39
Speaker
Even in the law system now, there are killings that are justified. It's called self-defense. The killings that are unjustified are killings without reason. God also, he's a loving God, but he's also a just God. So how can you be a just God and then not punish those who rightly deserve punishment?
00:28:01
Speaker
And then the statement comes after, well, he's killing innocent people. I said, well, based upon Romans, who's innocent? We all have sinned to fall short of the glory of God. So how can anyone else be innocent? Faith, it's clear that since we all fall short, none of us are perfect and therefore none of us are innocent. And we know that the wages of sin is death. So the problem is, yes, God has killed people,
00:28:30
Speaker
But he's done it justly. And he's also done it within his own covenant, which was told that if certain things were done, obviously to hurt or harm others. And we get that in Proverbs 6 about the seven things God hates that are detestable to him. There's punishment that comes to that. So I'm like, yeah, God is loving, but he also has to be just.
00:28:49
Speaker
And being just requires taking stances and positions that are the result of having to destroy or people to be wiped out. And that's a normal thing because regardless of whether he's in control of it or you have other different schools and ideologies that are doing it.
00:29:07
Speaker
God can purposely use those systems and things to seek revenge, right? All things were done for a purpose, for a reason. And I understand how detrimental that might sound for people that are listening right now, that God, He kills people. Of course He is. I'm not going to say He's never killed anybody. I look at the example that I'm thinking about now. I think it might have been in Genesis.
00:29:32
Speaker
the gentleman who was supposed to pregnant someone that didn't and decided to spill it on the ground, he died instantly. Or you look at Anna Addison, the book of Acts, he's lying to the Holy Spirit. And as a result, he dies just for lying in the Holy Spirit. So it's like we can't sit there and say God is all loving and there's no justice. Sometimes justice comes
00:29:53
Speaker
at the cost of him being consistent with who he is. And that sometimes may be at the price of something that we can't literally comprehend or understand in those moments. So that brings me to a tough question and it'll be remiss if I don't ask you this question. How have you
00:30:11
Speaker
equipped your children or any of them, they've become adults with what's been going on. I think the LGBTQIAS plus community. What has been your thoughts or your processing and making them aware of how society has changed? Because obviously, those that are in the public system, there's been some adjustments made to try to incorporate
00:30:40
Speaker
people so that they can feel a part of society. And we see it through the movies, we see it through the TV shows. I know this is a very hard topic to address, but we have to address because that's true for the matter is it's important that we put our Christian lens and approach to it, right? Because we need to equip people with the right mindset to go about it. So how do you talk to your children about that? Have you made it aware to them? And what has been your approach to try
00:31:07
Speaker
to address these things in a respectful and loving manner while still standing on your morals and your beliefs. Yeah. So, the foundation for our family is what does the Bible say? And so we start there and it says that God designed marriage to be between one man and one woman.
00:31:29
Speaker
And then we see the scriptures clarify what happens when people step outside of the will of God and reject God. And one of the consequences and one of the signs of that separation from God is that there start to be unnatural desires, right? That men start to desire men and women start to desire women. And that's in both the Old and the New Testament. And so I do my best to talk
00:31:55
Speaker
Yeah, Romans one. Thank you. And so I do my best to talk plainly and simply, but I think there's, there's also a call on us as Christians, especially when we're in a little bit of a Christian bubble, which being in the homeschool community, we are, and we're grateful for that. And that's, you know, we want our children to have the majority of their peers, you know, be
00:32:16
Speaker
Well, even more than peers, we want the parents that are sewing into our children's lives to be by and large people who love the Lord. And then we want to have them have a lot of opportunities to have friends that are Christians, but we don't also, we're not trying to shelter them from being in the larger world as well. But I think one of the challenges can be that we can start to
00:32:37
Speaker
us versus them, the conversation a little bit and feel like, oh, well, here's what we think. And that's just, you know, and, and, and everything that's that's over there, LGBTQ, all of that is just wrong. And so we really try to engage with our children that like, these are human beings in need of prayer, and that judgment is the work of the Lord. And so we speak the truth, and we love.
00:33:01
Speaker
And that balance is difficult enough even just in a family when one person has a toy that someone else wants, let alone when your worldviews differ. But we try not to shy away from the fact that this is part of the culture that they're living in. That there are people who have been given over to unnatural desires and they need prayer.
00:33:26
Speaker
And that this is the expectation of God, that he calls us, that he calls them, you know, he called my husband and me and he calls our children as Christians to look forward to future relationships with a significant other as being with one man and one woman in the context of marriage.
00:33:44
Speaker
Yeah, I agree with you right in his passing regulations that kind of speaks about living through the flesh and living by the Spirit and it's clear where he says that is what some of you were but you were cleansed you were washed you were sanctified right and I think people don't understand that and I understand the challenge because there's there are those I would call the ancient Christ to challenge God's creation
00:34:09
Speaker
And the challenge is whether or not a person feels that they were born a particular way. And regardless of how you choose to live your life, I will respect you in the boundaries of how you choose to live your life. But that doesn't come at the cost of me rejecting what truth is, right? And I understand that society has many different truths in the world, but we believe there is one truth, right? Because if there was many different truths, then I think at the end of the day, the challenge becomes, well, then what can we hang our hat on?
00:34:38
Speaker
We can't hang our hand on everything if everything is true, right? And I say there's a similar concept when it comes to this idea called theosophy. It's the merger of all different belief systems to try to justify that whether you're believing in Christ or Buddha or whether you're believing in Allah, it all goes to the same place. But I believe Jesus said it clear in the Gospel of John 14.6, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except for me.
00:35:08
Speaker
So that's a powerful declaration, and that powerful declaration comes at questioning and calling other things hypocrisy, and also we have to call them, you know, falsified truths, right? So that's where it gets really murky, and I understand the inclusion of trying to embrace other cultures and belief systems. So let me ask you this about what's been going on with the New Age movement, of trying to combine
00:35:37
Speaker
and add in crystals and other elements that aren't biblical, but it seems to be something that people are trying to mirth into, try to say Christ and God is in those sorts of things. When it comes to raising your children and making them aware of these different things, whether it's like I said, crystals, meditation, all these other things that have been prominently, you know,
00:36:04
Speaker
been vocalized and included into the belief system now in the new age concepts. What do you say about that? And how, you know, what does the word of God say counter to those ideas? Yeah, so I'm working my way through some of, so I'm pretty natural minded in how we approach health and things like that. And so there's an interesting
00:36:30
Speaker
I feel like it's required a lot of spiritual discernment on my part, because when you move into the natural health space, then there's a lot of that other stuff brought in as well. And so we're called to reject anything that's witchcraft. We're called to reject anything that's demonic or has spirits at its root or anything like that. There is this other piece that I'm very much working through with the Lord and in a deep place of humility. So there may be, there's much more for me to learn in this area.
00:36:59
Speaker
But one thing that I have noticed is there are things that God has created that the New Age tradition has placed in a God-like posture that I think still have powerful elemental properties that can be reclaimed by the church. So one example is the concept of grounding is where you get your feet in the dirt.
00:37:24
Speaker
And when you get your feet in the dirt, your system regulates and you get you get a more balanced heart rate, your breath rate slows. You're basically in a parasympathetic instead of a sympathetic state. So moving from fight or flight to rest and restore.
00:37:38
Speaker
The New Age movement would say, this is a way to commune with the spirit world and you're going to be, you know, and like you're, you're moving into your higher, I don't even know how they say it, you're higher. Astro projection, stuff like that. Yeah. Right. But I believe that God created that earth and that there are very powerful natural things happening that he made. And so.
00:38:01
Speaker
I think sometimes as Christians, we can feel afraid of something that's been claimed by the New Age movement when the thing itself doesn't have to be scary. We are more than conquerors in Christ Jesus. We are safe and we are held in his care and his love. And we need spiritual discernment. And just like you were talking about earlier of that verse in Corinthians, I feel like Romans 14 maybe has it too. Or am I thinking Corinthians 14, where it says basically,
00:38:30
Speaker
You don't have to worry about what other people are going out and doing, but don't make them fall either, right? Do I get it right? Is it Corinthians or Romans? Yeah, it's in Corinthians, but there's a version of it in Romans too. So you're right, no worries. Yeah, it's okay. There's a version of it, yeah. And so I think we're just constantly...
Spiritual Discernment and Community Impact
00:38:54
Speaker
What God cares about most is our orientation to Him, right? And so I'm constantly going, Lord, what do you think about this?
00:38:59
Speaker
What do you think about these different tools? Is there something that I need to reject because there's a root behind it that's wicked? Is this just that it got kind of kidnapped by the New Age movement, but there's actually good things in it and it's okay for it to be over, you know, for our family to utilize these things as well. And so I'm still very much working through it, but I think the main thing for your listeners and for my family to be mindful of is that what the Lord cares about is our orientation to Him.
00:39:28
Speaker
And he'd rather we get it wrong, but we're nestled under his care going, I want to follow you. I'm going to do what you want me to do. And if that means I reject this and I grab hold of this, I'm not going to be under law and I'm not going to be under judgment. I'm not going to be afraid, but I'm going to be seeking your face and everything. And that means probably that I'm going to be headed off in one direction and then you're going to leave me and you're going to say, Nope, not that this instead, but that as long as we are really.
00:39:52
Speaker
clearly attuned to his voice in our life and for our family, that we're doing what pleases him. Yeah. Because I would say, I'll be honest, when I got into the faith, the challenge that I had was trying to understand and hear God's voice. That was a challenge, right? And I would say, especially the Pentecostal movement around me, they were really trying to embed this idea of spirituality.
00:40:20
Speaker
right? And we call it the Holy Spirit, and some people call it a lot of different things when it comes to tapping into the spiritual realm. So I understood that there's two forms of existence. There's the world we're in now, but then there's the spiritual aspect of it. And when you read the parables, the parables means to walk alongside, to give a
00:40:41
Speaker
knew a surface level and then there's a spiritual aspect that points to the kingdom of God, right? The reign ruined authority of God who's come and now has implementing these ideas. And the kingdom of God at first, I remember at first I thought it was a place and it is, but it's also a mindset. It's the influence of what Christ brought. So yes, the kingdom has come and it's still not yet because God brought the kingdom of mind mindset into how we are to
00:41:08
Speaker
articulate and act within the culture, right? We don't want to be part of the culture, but we want to maneuver through the culture. So that gets me to want to ask you a little bit about this, because I think that this is prevalent as it relates to women. When a woman is looking to expand her impact on the kingdom, where does she start?
00:41:27
Speaker
So the Lord taught me something that we call hierarchy of covenants in our home, which is that my responsibility is first to God and then to my husband and then to my children and then to the world beyond.
00:41:40
Speaker
I think what we can so often miss when we talk about impact is that there is actually no impact more profound when we're given a family than the impact that we can make within our home. And so that starts with my time in the morning like you asked me about when we first started talking. It starts with my connection with the father and then
00:42:00
Speaker
And then I think of it as there was a kid, there was a children's Bible song when I was growing up deep and wide, deep in my there's a fountain flowing deep and wide. And so I think of my, my, my priorities in that way. First I go deep with my family.
00:42:15
Speaker
I make sure that my marriage is strong and I invest my time and my energy there. I make sure that my children know they are secondary priority to my husband, but they are deeply important. And we spend time together. We go for walks. I sit eyeball to eyeball with each of my kids every day and make sure I get time with them. I'm investing in their lives when there's conflicts and challenges. I make sure that we're working all the way through them. We're not just patching up and moving on. And then whatever is leftover, which
00:42:41
Speaker
Sometimes in those little years, there was not much left over except for encouraging someone in the grocery store or a quick text message to a friend, then that's the wide that goes beyond. And as my kids get older, they need more quality time, but there's a little bit more
00:42:58
Speaker
flexibility for me to do things like have this conversation and so into women through the business that I have and things like that. And so, uh, but that keeping that front and center, that hierarchy of covenants of my relationship with the Lord first and then husband and then children, and that ultimately that's the deepest impact. Cause it's not just today, it's the generations beyond that I'm impacting.
00:43:19
Speaker
Okay, so being a mom and homeschooling, what activities do you do when it comes to physical education?
00:43:29
Speaker
So we just moved to a new house with a nice big backyard. So Capture the Flag has been the new favorite of my children. They ride bikes, we take walks, swimming. We've done sports at various times. My second born is really into football and basketball and then we've done horseback riding and
00:43:51
Speaker
karate and just, you know, kind of the homeschool friend of mine talks about, well, you know, homeschool moms are kind of rocks that don't gather a lot of moss. We just keep on rolling. So we sampled a lot of different things. And my second is a basketball guy. That seems to be his lane for the others. We're still we're still figuring out where their favorite spot is to move their bodies. But we do talk about, you know, for us, it's part of the stewardship conversation. Part of stewarding the gifts that God has given us means we steward our health and that means moving our bodies.
00:44:22
Speaker
So are you guys into any sports? Are you watching anything? NFL, NBA, hockey, baseball? So for my son, yes, yes, yes. He loves football. He loves basketball. He loves hockey, not too into baseball. And then my husband is a huge NFL fan. He's a Steelers guy, so I'm very into a Steelers franchise, which everybody
00:44:49
Speaker
Well, they're trying to get the quarterback situation corrected, but they seem promising. You do have a promising coach, Mike Tomlin. He seems like he's OK. They're OK. They're managing. They're trying to stay afloat after they lost Big Ben. So just hope. That's right. Not a terrible showing, considering it was their first season without their franchise quarterback. Gotcha. And where are you guys located? I don't think I asked. We're in Charlotte, North Carolina.
00:45:16
Speaker
North Carolina. Oh, no, no Panthers. No, I know. We should be Panthers fans. So my husband grew up in New Jersey in the 70s. Seal Curtin were the ones to watch. So he never recovered from his love for them. And it's I mean, he won me over. The franchise is pretty impressive the way they stick with their coaches and they stick with their people. So I'm on board.
00:45:37
Speaker
Okay, so why do you think there's been such a move towards homes and many Christian circles? Why do you think they're desiring to do that now more than ever?
00:45:49
Speaker
Yeah, so I think, you know, we saw this move in, so I love looking at things from a generational perspective, as you know. So I look at the arc of maybe our past century. We had the greatest generation, which was the generation that kind of grew up during the Great Depression and saw their way through World War II. And they really had this passion for their children, which were the baby boomers, to say,
00:46:13
Speaker
here's everything that we never had. We wanna make sure that you receive all the gifts and the blessings that we did not receive. And so there was a lot of financial prosperity. And there was also this, there was a bit of a loosening of the reigns around morality. And so we saw the sixties and the starting to break down marriage and family. And then just kind of that, I think it's called the New Wave Feminism Movement that says, well, we really don't need men and we'll just go out on our own.
00:46:40
Speaker
And so that gave rise to this move in the 80s where it's like, you can have it all. You can lose your marriage and you can gain a career and you can really manufacture your life the way you want it to. And then my generation, the millennials grew up with that.
00:46:55
Speaker
And so whereas the baby boomers had a relatively stable adulthood, although they were going through a lot of transitions themselves, they had this strong base from their greatest generation parents, my grandparents, of the family units stayed together. They didn't move around a whole lot. There was just this sense of continuity. And then I feel like for me as a millennial and the generations that are coming up and raising their children now, which is Gen Z, I believe,
00:47:25
Speaker
We have felt the cost of this kind of concierge life of you can piece it together any way you want, do what you want, get a divorce, marry someone of the same sex, do whatever you feel, and it's all going to turn out okay. And we children from that generation are saying it's not okay.
00:47:42
Speaker
It's not okay. It didn't work to have both parents out of the home. It didn't work to have the parents split up. It's cost us deeply and we're now realizing the profound effect that it's had on us as we go into our adulthood. And I remember when my husband and I got married
00:47:58
Speaker
I really saw the impact of my parents divorce only in my own marriage. I remember when my husband and I would argue early on, I didn't know how to resolve things because I'd never seen anybody do that. I never saw my parents reach resolution. They just, by the time I came along, they just were pretty quiet and then they got divorced.
00:48:18
Speaker
And so I really thought that you got married with this perfect love and then it got chipped away with every conflict and you just hoped that somebody died before the other person left. You know, it's a terrible way to view marriage, but I didn't know what else it could look like. And so I think there's been
00:48:35
Speaker
And I can only, of course, speak for myself and for the conversations I've had with other people, but my theory is that us millennials and Gen Z are looking around and going, that didn't work. It didn't work to do whatever we wanted. There are consequences to our actions. And so let us take a minute and actually go back to what the greatest generation understood, but do it in a new way where we're actually choosing it. It's not just societal. It's not just, well, don't get divorced because that's the worst thing that can ever happen. We're actually choosing
00:49:04
Speaker
We're choosing covenant. We're choosing a missional view of marriage and parenthood. We're choosing to lay down our lives, trusting that that's actually the best foundation that we can give to our children.
00:49:15
Speaker
Okay, so when you look back over your life now where you are currently, I think about Genesis 39 where Joseph talks about, you know, there's a period in time where where God has brought him and where he currently was as being in jail and yet scripture says God was with him and yet him starting a whole family and having a wife and kids and then he
Anna's Personal Growth and Partnerships
00:49:39
Speaker
mentions
00:49:39
Speaker
how God has brought into a place where he has forgotten some of the things that has happened to him because now God has brought into a level where he's second in line in life and we think second in line in rulership over Egypt behind Pharaoh.
00:49:56
Speaker
And I think of Romans 8.28, all things work together for those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose. When you look at your gifts, talents, and your abilities that you have developed and still developing and that you have embarked upon, what can you say has gone to college, getting an degree? What did you major in college by the way? Classics and economics. So classics, Greek and Roman.
00:50:23
Speaker
Interesting. That's the first I've heard. Wow. So you can say something in those languages then, huh? Well, that's dope. I can read it. It's been 20 years. There are some schools that teach spoken Latin, but ours just taught going through the text and translating.
00:50:41
Speaker
Okay. Now that's dope. That's the first time I heard that. That's a challenge. Okay. So how has being a lawyer and studying these languages, how has it played the role now into where you are in life and what God has caused you to do?
00:50:57
Speaker
When I was getting my degree, a couple of people said, so I said early on in college, well, I want to be a wife and a mom. And then when I was in law school, I was headed out to work in a traditional law firm. But again, the long term goal was being a wife and a mom. And I had several people say to me, what a waste. You're so bright. You know, you're so capable. You can do all these things. And I use my degree every day.
00:51:21
Speaker
Whether it's writing contracts with my children, or if you do this, then you can go play. But if you don't, then you're grounded. And I use the challenges that I went through with law school. Just the mental rigor of earning that degree has given me a confidence that I can do the things that he's called me to do. It hasn't been the route that I predicted. I like a linear path. I think we all do. We all want to know
00:51:49
Speaker
you know, okay, Lord, if I do this, then this is coming next, we want to feel like we know the road ahead. But ultimately, the biggest thing that the journey that he's led me on has given me is a trust of him, because he's brought me through a lot of valleys that I didn't anticipate and didn't really want. But he's shown me his kindness and his goodness in the midst of those. And so yeah, it's been
00:52:11
Speaker
It's been a sweet ride and it's been fun to come full circle. I'm in my 40s now and I feel like God really loves that decade. He does a lot in our 40s because there's just such a time of preparation prior to that. And I feel grateful now that I'm able to use the communication skills, the love of language that he gave me. Like I love words.
00:52:33
Speaker
and now be able to use them in forums like this where I get to talk and I get to write and I get to communicate with people about the goodness of God.
00:52:42
Speaker
Yeah, amen. So it is an interesting question. You said that, you know, where God has placed you now, you being able to have access and use because we know all things that God has prepped you on, he doesn't let any things, any of those things go to waste. How would you say how your those gifts, talents and abilities have been equipped? I would say, I would say has equipped you to help
00:53:10
Speaker
you along your journey as being a wife and some of the things, personally with the mind that you have, I'm pretty sure we know that the Holy Spirit is there as a helper. We know that wives are there as helpers of their husbands, not to say that their value is any different or any less to the man. I would say men and women ontologically are different.
00:53:32
Speaker
but they function the same. And that functionality, where can you say, as an example, has been in your support as your husband? And does your husband listen to your mind and the things you say and lean on you? Or does he have these stages of like, I got it, I've got it. And then realize later you were really right. And then he admits it.
00:53:53
Speaker
Yeah, so we have a... he's wonderful. And so I teased him though. So here I am with all the schooling and the good grades and the strong pedigree. Like I went to all the good schools and did well.
00:54:11
Speaker
the Lord has gifted him with this deep knowing. He has an insight that is unparalleled. And so I tease him, I'm like, I don't know why I question you, you're always right. And so he'll say, you know, I really think this is, you know, I think this is what's coming for us. Or I think that this is what's going on behind the scenes. And I'll come in with my intellect, right? And I'll say, but this and this, you know, I'll start pointing out all the things that make sense in the natural. But he's got the direct line to the Spirit.
00:54:40
Speaker
And he's right. He's right. So it's been really good for me to to humble myself and recognize that there's a deeper wisdom beyond what we get in books. And that also role matters. You know, my husband is the head of our home. He needs those insights. And so the Lord gives them to him.
00:55:00
Speaker
And then my job is to discern in the spirit. And my husband's very strong. He's a very confident man. And so it's a great match because I can come and I can give those questions of, hey, but what about this? Have you thought about this piece? And have you thought about that piece? I can use my legal brain to tease out the issues. But ultimately, he can stand firm in his conviction and go, no, I actually know I feel like the Lord is really saying that this is the direction that we're going.
00:55:30
Speaker
He does real estate investment for a living and so my law background comes in a lot of handy and so we've had the opportunity to go through many different transactions over the years where I get to use my because I did I did transactional work I did mergers and acquisitions as a lawyer.
00:55:46
Speaker
And so, um, it's been a really sweet balance. And now that we're 12 years into marriage, I feel like we're seeing it so much more clearly how the Lord has knit us together as a unit that functions so much better together than apart. So I get to help with the deals and ultimately there will often come a point where he's like, I don't know, should we just pass on this one? And I'm like, babe, there's always an issue. There's always an issue and we'll make it through. And so, um, you know, we have this beautiful, uh,
00:56:14
Speaker
union where I can help with the little things and I can help kind of with the perspective and that's like, we're going to make it through. It's okay. And then he comes with just this laser sharp focus of where we're headed. That really is a gift from God. It's amazing. Okay. Do you even miss it? Law.
00:56:36
Speaker
I miss the, believe it or not, of all the things, I miss the community. There was almost this summer camp experience to doing deal work where you would work all hours of the day and night. Sometimes we were there until six o'clock in the morning working through deals when it really got close to the end.
00:56:52
Speaker
And there was such a close bond that was built through that. In some ways it was kind of a shared suffering. And so I loved the people that I got to work with and I loved the lives that I got to intersect with because I just had such a higher volume of back and forth going on in my life at that time. So I missed that.
00:57:13
Speaker
I miss the energy and charge around feeling challenged on a regular basis. How am I going to word this? What does the client want? What's my response to this point that the other side wants to have in the document? How do I argue the point back?
00:57:29
Speaker
So I miss those things, but the thing that's really surprised me is I've got to bring more of my law degree into my home life than I expected. So just like I talked about being able to write and communicate, even just helping my kids with their homeschool has given me an outlet for all of those things. So I like to say, I keep the best of it and I take it with me. And I think we all get to do that as Christians and get to take the things that were given to us by God and carry them forward into a new season.
00:57:54
Speaker
Do you have any friends that still reach out that still want your perspective or point of view on something? You still get those every now and then?
00:58:01
Speaker
I do. Yep. So because my clients were large corporations, it's funny when you specialize at that level, you don't have much to offer in the, in the day to day that most people need help with, like how do I write a will? And so I've learned more of that after leaving law than I knew when I was practicing, which is kind of funny. I'm not allowed to offer legal advice
00:58:25
Speaker
since I'm not, since my license is inactive right now, but I do love what we call issue spotting. I love talking to people about their challenges and just providing whatever insight the Lord gives me. A friend of mine has a company and he says, nothing beats lawyers in the boardroom. Lawyers ask such good questions. And so I've really taken that to heart and seek to do that for my people, seek to ask good questions and provide insights for them.
00:58:54
Speaker
okay so back to the the biblical aspect are there any passages of scripture that you're reading now that you've grown and developed over and that your perspective has shifted and changed now that you've gotten you've gotten more grounded and more knowledgeable about the scripture over a period in time
00:59:15
Speaker
Yeah. So there's a few different things. Um, and I don't know how deep in the weeds you want to get, but I did a, I did a significant overview where I read, I read the whole scripture, um, the whole Bible in about nine months and went through the, went through the Bible passages with a, um, a church in Idaho. They led a Bible reading challenge and they had a podcast that went along with it.
00:59:39
Speaker
They hold the post-millennial view of the end times, and if you're not familiar with that or your listeners aren't, that basically is saying that the end times that were talked about in Revelation were actually consummated primarily in AB 70 during the destruction of the temple.
00:59:59
Speaker
And then they go back through the Old Testament and New Testament passages and they kind of say, well, here's how these passages of scripture would be interpreted through that lens if we were post-millennial Marthology. So that's something that I've really been sitting with over the past couple of years and just delving into more deeply. There were passages of scripture that I never really understood when you look at it, because the predominant view is that the end times are still ahead of us.
01:00:26
Speaker
that we're not actually in the end times yet, that that's going to come. But what this post-millennial view says is that the thousand years, we're actually in the thousand years right now, we're in the age of the church. And so the passage in Daniel where it talks about the statue that has the, I think it's gold at the head and then maybe a silver body and then iron and then bronze and then iron and clay.
01:00:50
Speaker
that iron and iron clay, something like that. I'm not getting quite right. But that that statue is actually represented and then this mountain comes down and bowls over the whole statue and shatters it. That makes so much more sense when you look at our history as being a post-millennial history where we are in the age of the church. And so I've been sitting with that and we look at it in the natural and say,
01:01:14
Speaker
Gosh, it doesn't look like things are getting better and better and better and that God's church is increasing, but it doesn't matter what it looks like. It matters what the scriptures say. And we can't know until we get there, but it's been so much fun to just delve more deeply and say, I thought I kind of knew what I, I thought I kind of knew
01:01:35
Speaker
what God's story was about. And maybe there's this whole other perspective that I've never even looked at or known as an option before that gives me a deeper understanding of God's goodness within history. So that's one thing that I'm looking at right now that's just been a lot of fun to use my law brain on and just say, what if it's like this instead? And ultimately the question always comes back to how do I show up well?
01:02:00
Speaker
and be faithful today, no matter what's going on, no matter where we are in history. But it's been really fun to tease through that. Yeah, those are some interesting ones because the ones that I've discovered over the year or two that I've realized is I think sometimes we look at things from a spiritual sense, but we don't capture the practicality within it. So I'll give you an example. The passage where Jesus says that we are the light of the world.
01:02:27
Speaker
but the salt of the earth loses to saltiness, how can it become salty again? I think the perspective that we've always had as Christians is that we're like the main course, but I've kind of realized we're not the main course, we're the alternative to the society because Jesus has never called us to change the society, but to be an alternative to the society, which means that when in period in time that passes in Thessalonians where he says,
01:02:57
Speaker
always be prepared, not that passage. There's a passage where he says, live a quiet life until you can earn the respect of outsiders, right? Is that he doesn't want us to go around Princeton and being, I would say, loud about who we are in Christ, but he want people to come to discover who Christ is. And sometimes that causes self-reflection. So I'll give you an example.
01:03:23
Speaker
Jesus had a conversation with the rich young ruler in the book of Mark.
01:03:29
Speaker
And it talks about how the rich young ruler, he said, you know, I've done all these things that I was asking me since a young age. And then Jesus said, well, give all your riches and come follow me. In that instance, in the moment, he looked at what he had because he was very rich. And then he questioned whether or not he should. So he went away. Now, most people will say, well, if God is loving, why let him go? And then I realized in the midst of that, the reason why he let him go wasn't because he didn't love him, but sometimes loving people has to be done at a distance.
01:03:59
Speaker
And that means allowing people to work through things to discover that. It's not going to happen by prancing and belligerenting and, I would say, bashing people with certain things. Sometimes people have to discover that. So the same thing we go back in 1 John, where he says, let your light, he says, God is light in him is no darkness. If we claim to be in fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we don't live out the truth. There's a reason why Matthew 5 talks about
01:04:27
Speaker
us being light and letting our light shine before others so that they may glorify our Father in heaven. That has a lot to do with us maneuvering in a world that's full of darkness and not trying to be the leader, not trying to make everything seem about us. But people have to come to those grips and those realities before they actually embrace Christ.
01:04:48
Speaker
But you have to know that you need assistance. You can't live life thinking that you have all the answers. But that takes periods of time to discover and realize that I can't do this alone. I need help. And that's what the body of believers are looking for. And then lastly, I would say I think the development of my hermeneutic changed my perspective on scripture because I think a lot of times people like I encountered an individual that tried to tell me that God was a man and a woman.
01:05:14
Speaker
And they were using that passage in Galatians. And I laughed. I'm like, you're taking this joint out of context. And they were sincere about it. And I'm like, the Bible, if there's nowhere other place in it, and it's in one context, that means you're looking at it wrong. But these are the things we encountered. And the last thing I'll say is when Jesus was in the, it talks about this in Matthew and in Luke. And this is where the home renewals of grammar comes into play.
01:05:43
Speaker
When Jesus was told to turn the stone into bread, one says stone singular, one says stones plural. So we know that in one instance, he's talking about it in regards to benefiting him selfishly, individually. And in another sense, we're talking about money, monetary value, and what you can do with the assets of multiplying the bread. And it has to do with whether you're going to use your power irresponsibly to have us challenge him in his humanity,
01:06:13
Speaker
Oh, we're going to look at it from the mindset that in his humanity, you can't view Christ and his humanity and deity at the same. You have to see them differently. So I had to learn when I read that passage, okay, one's discussing him in his own hunger and what he needs individually. And then one is challenging him with the power that he has.
01:06:32
Speaker
in his divinity. So sometimes when you look at the passages, there's a reason why I would say, well, why is the story the same thing? It's the four gospels, but they're telling the same story. No, one of them is telling it from the perspective of the servant. Another one is telling him from the perspective of him being king. Another one is telling it from the perspective of him being God in the flesh. But sometimes people don't see it those ways, so they think they lump it all into one thing.
01:06:59
Speaker
So, you know, when you when we take time and we look at things more closely, we see the practicality of it. And then we see how God is wanting us to understand something a little bit more. And that's why I lead into a little bit of the paradox. Give me give God an opportunity to speak to you. And that takes time. That's not going to happen right away. The wisdom don't just drop in your lap. So.
01:07:22
Speaker
Yeah. So let me ask you, in terms of worship music, what have you been playing quite often that's shifted your mindset into praise and worship? Because that's a challenge, right? Praise and worship people. I'll be doing it in my car, caring less about people looking around me. So what is your thoughts of praise and worship and how have you encouraged your children to do that more and more with you?
01:07:44
Speaker
Yes, so there is a group called Sounds Like Rain, like a King's Rain, R-E-I-G-N, and it's a very sweet family. It's a husband and wife, and I think they have seven children at this point, and they bring the kids on to sing as well.
01:08:01
Speaker
So that's been really sweet. A mentor of mine introduced me to it. And the kids love, you know, my daughter loves seeing the baby and the kids will sing. And so I love, and so that's a YouTube channel. I love giving my kids a taste for the traditional hymns, which is what they sing. When my father passed away, I sang greatest thy faithfulness at his funeral. And so that kind of ushered in a very revisiting of the hymns.
01:08:29
Speaker
as just a way of, I mean, when you read the verses of a hymn, you almost can't even plumb the depths of them. They are so rich, which is why they've stood the test of time. We sing more traditional modern worship songs.
01:08:44
Speaker
in our church. And so that becomes, so that's really, we get a nice taste for, for praise and worship in that context at church. And, and then the, probably like circa 10 years ago, worship songs, like I love the song, You're an Overcomer, which is, it's not really worship, but it's about like who we're called to be in Christ and, and different songs that
01:09:09
Speaker
This is my story. This is my song. Praising my savior all the day long. I'm not great with the titles all the time. So often the worship songs will kind of call me back to different times or the Lord's done a work in my life. And so we try to just have music on for our children to listen to.
01:09:27
Speaker
my husband loves 80s music. So we have to kind of have a little balance because we got to have some 80s rock in the house or he'd go nuts. But then we bring in the worship music and I like to even just have it on at one or two volume just and I think about it just soaking in the walls right to just have that spirit of praise
01:09:44
Speaker
I would suggest, I don't know if you ever heard of the artist, Donnie McCurkling. He has this whole album called, Songs, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs. He taps into all those. He taps into all Donnie McCurkling. He taps into, that's like, I'll send it to you. He taps into all the songs, all the hymns, and it's a hit. It's actually one of my favorites, exactly what you're talking about. It's amazing, so definitely.
01:10:12
Speaker
Okay, so as we come down here, is there anything that you would like to share that you think could be helpful or useful to any women out there that are expiring and desiring to be wives or just looking to be impactful in the workplace? Oh, that's good.
01:10:34
Speaker
You know, I would say sometimes we try to be, we want to be people of impact, right? We want our lives to make a difference. And so it can be tempting to work towards the thing that we want. How do I be impactful? How do I make a difference?
01:10:53
Speaker
And so often we can fall short when that's our goal. And so I would encourage any women who are in that position, I want to make a difference in my work. I want to make a difference in my family. I want to be ready for marriage. If the Lord has that for me, that it's always comes back to the same thing. And it's so simple and it feels like, you know, I mean, we read all these books and we listen to podcasts and we, and we, you know, try to learn from wise people in our lives. But at the end of the day, the gospel is so simple. Look first to Jesus.
01:11:23
Speaker
And he makes us impactful just because we love him. Like as we lean into deepening our walk with him, then things pop out of our mouths that aren't ours. And somebody will say, that was so smart. That was so wise. That's exactly what I needed to hear. And it's because of our communion with the Father that we're able to give those things to other people. And so I would just encourage
01:11:46
Speaker
other women to do the same work that I'm trying to do myself, to seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and then he says all these things will be added. I was just reflecting this morning about how I was talking to someone yesterday about abundance, and we
01:12:05
Speaker
You know, it's not, Oh, I sought God. And so I got all these things. It was like, what he calls us to do is I sought God and therefore he gave me the ability to love the things that he gave me, whatever they were. Yeah. And so when we see Kim first, then we actually have things in our hands to give to other people that have value because they've been sanctified and touched by him.
01:12:29
Speaker
Yeah, I think of the parable when God gave talents according to the capacity that people had. And then there was complaints about why certain people he gave got more, but he did according to their capacity. And that really lies within the faith that you have in Christ. The greater your faith, the more capacity that you can have and the greater capacity that you can have, the more you can influence.
01:12:55
Speaker
And I think no more, no less than Jeremiah, right? Jeremiah preached the gospel.
01:13:01
Speaker
the message and no one repented. So I want us to realize too that you want God to say, well done, good and faithful servant. And that may come regardless of what God has placed you, whatever situation of predicament he's placed you in, he wants you to flourish and blossom and reach to a point where you're flourishing to the best of your ability. And whatever he's called you,
01:13:26
Speaker
you have to settle and find your niche in that settlement and be the best that you can be. And God wants us to be the best that we can be and sometimes that comes at a limited capacity and sometimes it comes at a larger capacity. The larger the capacity,
01:13:43
Speaker
We also know that the judgment of God is higher because of the impact that we're having on lives that we do know, we don't know. But whatever capacity, I'm pretty sure he's well aware of. I was thinking about what Jesus said to his disciples when he called them together and he says, I have many things to tell you, but you can't bear them yet. The word yet is very clear there because
01:14:05
Speaker
It doesn't mean that things can't change. They can change based upon your faith in Him, your capacity in proven. It doesn't have to be at a limited view, but it can grow and then God can then want to expand whatever your ministry may be.
01:14:21
Speaker
So don't get discouraged if it's not large. And I mean, as a podcast of myself, right? God, I think whatever capacity it is, do what you can with what you have now. And then if he decides to expand it, he will, right? Just got to be patient and trust God for what he has for you. All right. He gets the same blessing.
01:14:44
Speaker
to both people, both the two talents and the five. He says, well done, good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of your master. Yes. Just don't be the one that buried the talent and was fearful. We can't have faith and be afraid, right? That's right. We can't do that because nothing changed, right? He buried it. And then he said, oh, you're evil. You're evil. You planted what you didn't plant it. And we can't do that.
01:15:12
Speaker
But we all have talents, gifts, and abilities that God has given to us without repentance, by the way. And the goal is that He wants us, He's going to call and access one day when we stand before Him. What have you done? What I have given you?
01:15:27
Speaker
And your goal is to do what you can at the best of your ability. And I'm pretty sure there's someone that I believe that's listening to this. Well, their perspective and life will change and it will be altered for the greatest ability to be successful. So before we close out here, do you have any calls to action that you may have for any women out there or any men?
01:15:53
Speaker
that I'm pretty sure I've enjoyed your perspective that they can utilize and be helpful moving forward. Thank you. Yes, if anyone wants to connect with me, I have a Facebook group called She Considers a Field and that's from Proverbs 31. And it's a conversation around stewardship. I basically encourage women of faith to rise up and be faithful in the little and it is absolutely based on that parable of the talents that you just mentioned.
01:16:19
Speaker
that we would be faithful and little and be prepared to be set over more because that's what happens as we're faithful and little. So I share books that I'm reading, I share words of encouragement and lessons that the Lord has taught me, and then we have a book club that meets twice a month. So I'll make sure to give you that information, Jonathan, and it'll be in the show notes so that we can connect.
01:16:41
Speaker
Any advice you have for entrepreneurship, we didn't really touch too much bases on that. And I knew that's one of the things that you're definitely succeeding or succeeding in. You have any small nuggets of information that can be helpful to anybody that's looking to do that.
01:16:58
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So and it's a big conversation, but it can be summed up pretty simply in the same idea as the talents that we would be faithful and little. And so I've come to believe that anything worth investing in grows exponentially. And so if you know anything about the exponential growth charts, they look like zero for a really long time.
01:17:20
Speaker
And so that's how our faith grows. That's how our bank account grows. That's how our businesses grow. That's how the generational healing in our families happens. That it looks like nothing's happening for a really long time because you're doubling
01:17:37
Speaker
You're growing something that's starting out infinitesimally small and you have to have hope in the unseen. So when we as Christians enter the marketplace as entrepreneurs, we need to put on our same disciplines and skills that we're meant to bring to our
01:17:57
Speaker
to our work as believers, you know, read the Bible, even though it looks like we're not learning anything, pray, even though it looks like nothing's happening, worship, even though we don't feel any differently, you know, we're supposed to exercise those spiritual muscles before we see the fruit. And that's that faith in the unseen. The same thing is true for our businesses. We have to be willing to sow into them when it looks like we're not getting paid. And that was really hard for me when I started my business eight years ago, because I'd come from being a lawyer.
01:18:23
Speaker
And so I was like, I used to make all this money every year. I was paid very well. And I think I just made $2 an hour on that event that I just ran. And I was so discouraged, but I had to be willing to keep going anyway. And I think that's the biggest thing that keeps people from being successful is they don't give it enough time.
01:18:43
Speaker
They don't give enough of themselves. We're used to the more traditional linear growth of a W-2 job, of a traditional, you know, you come and you work and we'll pay you this much.
Entrepreneurship, Value, and Leadership
01:18:53
Speaker
Well, they're paying us more than we're worth initially. And then as we develop our skills and get better and better at our jobs, eventually they're earning far more in value than what we're getting paid.
01:19:03
Speaker
And so when we step into the entrepreneurship space, we have to be willing to forgo payment for a while and have a vision for what we're creating, go all in on it. Even when no one else sees what we see, nobody else believes that it's possible or even valuable. And that's how we're able to build a business that's sustainable and that gives us far more than we thought possible.
01:19:25
Speaker
Yeah, that's a blessing. I appreciate you saying that. Because as a person that's done food delivery research, I've always questioned that. And I think a lot of times they don't pay you for your time. They pay you for your value. And a lot of times, the amount of time that you put in, and I used to say this when I worked for UPS when I was going to college, the amount of boxes I touched.
01:19:49
Speaker
imagine if I got paid for the amount of boxes I touched. I didn't get paid for that. I got paid for the time. But as your value increases in the marketplace, that's why you have some people that can work short periods of time, or they get paid just for an hour or two, and you have those that worked the regular nine to 12. And that has to do with the other parable about the man who went and asked people to come work in his vineyard.
01:20:15
Speaker
And you have the classifications of those and him being obviously God and extending and choosing to do what he wants to do with his own vineyard. You start to see the value of people and those that worked longer, those that worked shorter and those that came in the end, they all got paid the same.
01:20:35
Speaker
And then they get paid for the time and they got paid for the value. So I think it's a point that I actually just follow up question. How do you measure change in your own life? How do you measure that for you? Yeah, I know. I had to ask that question. Yeah.
01:20:53
Speaker
what's going to happen is we're going to end our conversation. I'm going to have all kinds of great ideas later. There's always room for a part two because I, okay, let me, I can, I can give you how I can measure change. I'll give it a shot and then I want to give it what you have to say. Okay.
01:21:12
Speaker
go after me. So how I measure change, first of all, I think it's very important to be in community because it's challenging for us to have our own perspective and see, like, if I try to see how am I doing, how am I growing, my lens is always going to be colored by how I'm feeling that day.
01:21:30
Speaker
So I'll say to my husband, I'm not making a difference. Nothing I do matters. I'm still, I can't believe I'm still wrestling with the same thing from five or 10 years ago. And he mirrors back for me. Don't you see? Don't you see how this has changed? And this has changed. And I have wonderful friends in my life who will do the same for me. Ultimately, the Lord is my primary mirror. Like I love one of the things I love about
01:21:52
Speaker
reading a good chunk of the Bible year to year is that I can see there are there are places in scripture that I really wrestled with and felt great struggle over, you know, five 10 years ago, that now I see his goodness in those areas, and I couldn't before. There are also, I think, you know,
01:22:12
Speaker
Key events in my life have been real markers of change for me where it's like life has never looked the same again. For example, after my dad's passing, my life has never looked the same again, believe it or not, for the better. There were many rich blessings that I received in his passing as much as I miss him. But so I see, I look back on these markers in my life and I say, gosh, I used to believe something different and I don't anymore. So I would say, I would say the Lord's mirroring, people's mirroring. And then I love revisiting, you know, of course, scripture and then also other
01:22:42
Speaker
books and going, oh I know these lessons now. I've become this thing that I once read about and didn't understand at all.
01:22:49
Speaker
No, I appreciate it. Well, I just came up with the question. So now I have to... Okay, okay. I just came up with the question. So, okay, okay. One way I look at I can measure change is time, right? We know in Luke chapter 2, Jesus grew and matured in favor with God and with man. That's one way you can measure change.
01:23:13
Speaker
Also, when time I mentioned the passes with Joseph were obviously he was in jail for a period of time. And over time, right, we understand that the two gentlemen that understood the dream, it took time like there was a period of time when Joseph
01:23:30
Speaker
told the man, he tried to do it himself, not realizing that God wanted him in there a little bit longer. And that's why the gentleman that was supposed to tell the dream to Pharaoh never got to him. So he stood there a little longer. And I would say during that period of time of change, character development needed to happen. So then when eventually, when he did come out, he was prepared to lead, right? And even how he addressed his
01:23:54
Speaker
brothers, it all had to come not with an act of envyness or fear, but with an act of having to own up to what was done to him. And if that love that God imbues in all of us, how could he respond to that by giving what they needed, knowing what was going on throughout Egypt, right? Christ is another one.
01:24:15
Speaker
I think you measure change in crisis because I think in 2 Kings chapter 4, the woman that needed to go get the jars for the oil and her conversation with Elijah, right? Elijah was like, you know, she came to him and I think the problem was her husband
01:24:33
Speaker
had a debt and then her children were facing slavery. And he was like, well, what do you have in your home that has value? And then she had the olive oil and then she gathered all the jars. And I noticed the blessing never stopped. She just ran out of jars, right? Because of the flow. Yeah. So that led me to believe that sometimes
01:24:57
Speaker
our ability to be successful happens at the capacity of what we have within our power. We just haven't found out. Or what our gift towns and abilities, we haven't even tapped into them yet. And God has ability to pour blessings on them. You just have to discover what it is and then ride that. So I said crisis. I said crisis time. Productivity is another one, right? Let me think. Galatians 6.9.
01:25:26
Speaker
where he says, don't become worried and doing good for you to reap a harvest if you don't give up. That has to do with the understanding of planting and growing. Sometimes it takes a while for things to develop and grow. And that goes into the point you made about entrepreneurship, right? If you want something to flourish and grow at the capacity, well, you can ask the question, well, how tall can the tree go as tall as it can? As tall as it wants to, right?
01:25:49
Speaker
So I think that's the same thing with planting and productivity. And I think this is important why Jesus used parable after parable when dealing with planting. Because he wanted us to see that it's a process. And we know that God is a God of process. Nothing that ever happens at the snap of a finger. I know our counterparts, the atheists would like to believe God could just do it if he wants to. He's never been a God that does things
01:26:16
Speaker
He's done things in a progressive stage because in that progressive stage, you see how you've
Thought Quality and Women's Community
01:26:23
Speaker
come and grown into the person that God wanted you to be, but He had to allow you to develop and see where you went wrong to then gain the wisdom, which is the ability, the certain, the courage to choose what is good from evil that allows you to get to the place that you are now. And you wouldn't have been there if you just skipped a bunch of steps.
01:26:42
Speaker
So I was interested to see how you how you measure change. I just came up with that. So that's good, right? Great question. I'm going to enjoy sitting with that. So yeah, I think moving forward, if you sit back and you realize change has happened even in the lives that you touch.
01:26:58
Speaker
or others that are around you and their approach on the emphasis that you change, I would say the quality of your thinking can determine the quality of your life. So if your thinking alters and changes, it can impact the way you see the world and then that impact on how you see the world benefits what you do moving forward.
01:27:20
Speaker
Yeah. All right. Cool. Look, I just made up a question. It was a good question. And I answered it, right? I know. You got a good answer. All right. All right. So I will close out in prayer. And I would love to have you on for a part two. This would also be a part two one day. So that sounds like a good idea. Man, I wish you had a podcast. I was like, no podcast or nothing. You got to start something. Not yet.
01:27:43
Speaker
It's coming. I know that it's coming and I am collecting amazing people like you to be able to bring on when I have it. So I just thank you for the opportunity to practice because yeah.
01:27:55
Speaker
Yeah, you got a lot going on in your head that you haven't even, God's got some stuff prepared for the future. And I'm pretty sure you'll definitely be an asset to the community of podcasters and people, you'd be surprised the value and people are looking, I understand people are looking for some sort of influence and inspiration. And I would say,
01:28:19
Speaker
a woman like yourself, I'm inspired, right? I got to finish. So I could talk to you about this little stuff. I got to get through this book here. That's a big book. I know, but I know. I'm excited for what's coming for you, Jonathan. Yes. One more. What's the name of it? Because I have a group. I have an actual group called I'm a Believer, and we just inspire Christians with verses and something that can be helpful. Just for the audience, again, we might have overwhelmed them in the past 15 minutes. What's the name of the group again for those who want to follow? We're going to put in the show notes, but great.
01:28:48
Speaker
So it's called she considers a field and it's a it's a women's group and then I also Put content on Instagram as well. And that's also she considers Okay, I know a few that a benefit. Yeah Alright, so if you don't mind close out closes out in prayer, please
Conclusion and Prayer
01:29:08
Speaker
Jesus, thank you. Thank you that you're always here and thank you that you came as a man, you came as a baby first, and you lived a life that was filled with pain and trouble so that you could say, I know what you're going through. And so whatever Jonathan's listeners are going through, I just, I pray that they would see your face today. I pray that they would leave the time that they have
01:29:33
Speaker
invest in to listen to this podcast and to disappoint with life looking a little bit different from this time forward. With them knowing a little bit more of your face and a little bit more of your goodness and glory because ultimately that is the purpose of our lives to glorify you and to enjoy forever.
01:29:49
Speaker
I pray blessings on the Truth of the Matter is podcast. I know the work that Jonathan and his brother are doing. That they would know you better and be filled with wisdom. And that they would be ultimately always called back to you as the center and foundation of their life. That their work would be an overflow from that posture. That they would love you and serve you all the days of their lives. And that they would be deeply fruitful in their work. I pray blessings over this podcast and over all who listen. And I pray this in the name of Jesus. Amen.