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Beyond the Pitch Episode 67: Explorations in Europe continued - Norway, Sweden, Denmark
7 Plays27 days ago
Join Catherine for another voyage abroad. This time we are going Scandinavian - Norway, Sweden and Denmark!
Interesting article I mention: Analysing The Rise of Women’s Football in Denmark - Breaking The Lines
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Transcript
Introduction and Travel Desires
00:00:09
Global Sports Podcast Network
Hello and welcome to Beyond the Pitch, a daily women's football podcast is brought to you by the Global Sports Podcast Network. Today I'm by myself again. I'm not going to sing. I keep from missing. I'm really not going to sing. Uh, yeah, I'm running solo and today I'm going to continue with a bit of traveling around Europe, which sounds really nice at the moment, doesn't it? I'd really like to go and just travel somewhere at the moment. I think it's, it's getting into December. It's really, really cold.
00:00:37
Global Sports Podcast Network
ah It's been raining all day today in England. I live in the south of England and yeah, it's just been chucking it down all day. It would be really nice to go somewhere. I look really like the cold, but it'd be nice to go somewhere a bit drier with a bit drier weather. um Yeah.
Norway's Role in Women's Football
00:00:51
Global Sports Podcast Network
Anyway.
00:00:52
Global Sports Podcast Network
and Enough about that, on to football. Today I want to continue with my traveling around Europe, learning about other leagues. So in the last episode we covered Scotland, Germany and the Netherlands. um Today's episode we're going Scandinavian with Norway, Sweden and Denmark.
00:01:08
Global Sports Podcast Network
Now I do have to do a disclaimer. You know, my issues with pronunciations. I mean, if you've listened to the podcast before, I'm likely to mispronounce my own name. Um, I think it's because I'm still new to podcasting. I'm not a huge fan of like public speaking anyway. Uh, so this is pushing myself out of my comfort zone and I get nervous, which means that although I do my research, sometimes I, as I'm talking, just make those mistakes.
00:01:36
Global Sports Podcast Network
ah So please know I absolutely do not mean to offend anyone if I mispronounce anything. So let's start over in Norway. um So starting with the big picture, Norway has kind of been a pioneer in women's football.
00:01:52
Global Sports Podcast Network
Did you know that the Norwegian women's national team was one of the most dominant forces in the 1990s? And I was alive then, but I did not know that because I was a very little. They won the World Cup in 1995 and claimed gold at the 2000 Sydney Olympics. I was, how old was I in 2000? I was 10, yeah. And let's not forget the championship titles in 1987 and 1993.
00:02:21
Global Sports Podcast Network
Norway was among the first to showcase that women's football could be just as thrilling and competitive as men's. In 2017, the Norwegian Football Association became one of the first in the world to introduce equal play pay for men's and women's national team players. I hope that came across. That was me giving them a little clap. um Yeah, I've talked about this before, and I will talk about this again as a lot of the leagues we're covering today, again, are semi-professional. But how can you expect the women's game to grow and how can you expect players to kind of perform really well in the football to be exciting if they can't dedicate their time to football fully, if they have to go out and do other jobs and work. You can't, you can't expect the same um kind of performances from them. So yeah. um
Norwegian League Structure
00:03:10
Global Sports Podcast Network
This groundbreaking move did inspire other countries to follow suit. I'm not entirely sure which ones I need to look that up, um but yeah, well done Norway.
00:03:19
Global Sports Podcast Network
So this is where my first foray into mispronunciations is going to come in. The top flight in women's football in Norway is called the Top Syrian and it was founded in 1984, although league football had been around informally for a few years before then, since around 1977. Now I imagine, I'm not sure which countries in Europe did ban the women's game until the 70s. Obviously we know England and the Netherlands are to Scotland another one. um Be interesting if Norway was the same and um the kind of dissolution of that is what prompted the league's formation in 77. Again if you know any Norwegians out there please do let me know. So currently the league has 10 teams and it operates in a round robin just like the WSL. The teams are and
00:04:13
Global Sports Podcast Network
Massive disclaimer for pronunciations, I just need a codeword for that. ah Cole Button, Lynne, Roa, Starbeck, Valoranga, who have had quite the foray in the Champions League of this season, so you'll know that name. Ana Pjornar, Asan, and Bran. The oldest teams in the competition, who are still in the competition, are LSK, Grvina, and Rosenberg, who again, you will know from the Champions League this season,
00:04:42
Global Sports Podcast Network
They both formed their women's teams in 1987.
00:04:47
Global Sports Podcast Network
So the newest team is Coldbottom. That really doesn't sound like it's pronounced right. I apologise. They first competed this year, 2024. Valorango have won the last two titles. I couldn't find any easily accessible stadium capacity numbers, unfortunately, so I can't really talk about that.
00:05:06
Global Sports Podcast Network
um The season runs from March until November, I imagine, due to wanting to avoid the weather over the winter. um We talked about which league was it. I think it was the Scottish League that we talked about that also
Success Factors and International Impact
00:05:19
Global Sports Podcast Network
um used to do the same thing, had a summer season. I don't think the Scottish League still does. um However, I do imagine that this is all to do with avoiding the winter weather, which I mean, I am going to a game tomorrow that I'm expecting a waterlogged pitch um and half expecting the game to be called off. And this is November, so I definitely do appreciate that. So to explore the history of it, in 1984, there was with the formation of the top Syrian, the league was divided into three regions, Eastern, Western and Mid-Norway.
00:05:53
Global Sports Podcast Network
no teens from the northern ah area played initially. They did join a couple of years later. And as an aside, I don't really know why that is. I don't know much about Norway. I've never been. I figured is it something to do with like some other European countries, especially in the north where the bulk of the population and main kind of industrial um centers are in the north and then you've got like a large population in the south because of the weather. I don't know. um They did come in a couple of years later. The winners from each region then went into a playoff. The competition stopped operating on a regional basis in 1987, so they only did that for a few years. And all teams in the country played each other before going into a playoff. Now, traditionally, there were two powerhouses. Again, bear with me. Trondheim's On and Asker.
00:06:47
Global Sports Podcast Network
They were the two historic ah powerhouses. Orne won seven titles and Asker won six. Sad ah moment here in 1998, Asker won every single league game in 1998. They went unbeaten, but then went bankrupt in 2008. Most of ah the women's team then shifted into a new team who are still currently in the league, Starbeck, IF.
00:07:16
Global Sports Podcast Network
Of the years that ASCO were active, however, they finished in the top three in 18 of their 25 seasons. I mean, that again is pretty, uh, we've seen quite a lot in this kind of European leagues tour. We've seen quite a few instances of kind of one or two teams completely dominating a league. And I imagine that is quite natural because surely it depends on the extent to which kind of.
00:07:43
Global Sports Podcast Network
the clubs or investors buy into what is essentially a new thing, women's football, and that you've seen it with the Netherlands as well, with, I think, from the formation of the Eredivisé, it was FC twenty um You've seen it in the WSL with Arsenal and then Chelsea who seem to, I mean this is going way off on a tangent, but I have kind of, um I have a theory about what creates a successful football team and it should be with a circle, um but the circle has different parts.
00:08:13
Global Sports Podcast Network
And if any one part of the circle is kind of missing or broken, then the circle breaks and you're unsuccessful and the different parts of the circle are obviously you have the technical staff, you have the players, but then you also have the back room staff, the higher ups, kind of the board of directors and the support that you get coming down um as well as kind of what you get going up. And yeah, I imagine ah it's quite natural that some investors and some clubs would kind of buy into the idea of a women's team more readily and I think those the teams that historically have had that kind of ah dominance because they've had kind of the money, the facilities to to um put into their women's teams. Anyway that was my spiel and my theory
00:09:01
Global Sports Podcast Network
So, as I mentioned, the season runs from March to November, which means that it's currently already finished, and Valorenga with the champions, which is... some Another interesting thing is with these different season leagues, like March, November, and ours runs from like, what is it? September to May-ish. And so, when these teams are facing each other in the Champions League, they're facing each other at different times in their seasons.
00:09:29
Global Sports Podcast Network
which is quite interesting, like the Champions League games now for um for these Norwegian teams are coming after their season's finished. Whereas the WSL teams in the Champions League are still in kind of at the start slash in the middle of their season. It's just quite interesting when you think about like player fatigue, the number of games that they've played. Of course, there's been a few international breaks and the Euro's qualification over the summer as well. ah Just quite an interesting thing to think about. I wonder how that kind of impacts the players. so
00:10:02
Global Sports Podcast Network
The Global Sports Podcast Network is changing the face of football podcasts with dedicated daily content for every Premier League team, women's football, fantasy football, and a daily Premier League wrap-up, broadcasted in five different languages. This is your one-stop shop for your daily football fix. Find GSPN wherever you find your usual podcasts.
Exploring the Swedish League
00:10:22
Global Sports Podcast Network
So our next topic is looking at the Swedish League. Now, this is quite interesting. I have quite a few feelings about Sweden due to their recent um exploits in the way for qualification, ah the Euros qualification rounds with England. They drew twice. The first draw was at Wembley. It finished one all.
00:10:41
Global Sports Podcast Network
um And that was Grace Clinton's home debut. I think that was, no, that wasn't her first start for England, but it was definitely her home kind of debut. Yeah. um And then we went away to Sweden, I think in July, and that was a goalless draw. But we ended up getting that vital or second spot in the group and therefore qualifying for the Euros automatically while Sweden have to go through playoffs. So sorry, Sweden.
00:11:10
Global Sports Podcast Network
I am sorry. um Anyway, let's talk about the Swedish League. So as you may know, or have just picked up, the Swedish national team tends to perform really well. ah They won bronze at the last World Cup. I think they knocked out the US in the round of 16, so they are a good team.
00:11:30
Global Sports Podcast Network
um There are quite a few Swedish players at top clubs around Europe, like Stina Blacksternius at Arsenal. She's a striker. ah Doesn't tend to start for Arsenal, but she does have this. um She's a super sub. She comes on and scores a couple of goals off the bench. The Swedish Women's Football League. bla blah blah I'm going to do my ah disclaimer, pronunciation disclaimer. I need a sound effect for that, please. GSPN, could I have a sound effect for?
00:11:59
Global Sports Podcast Network
for that please. sir Okay. It's known as the Damaus van Kann. Damaus van Kann. Okay, we've got, we've got there. It was established in 1988. It was the first women's league to turn fully professional. I did not know that. That is quite the very interesting. I do wonder though when they say that leagues turn professional but today Is it just that they play pay their players or is it that they do pay their players enough to actually like exist and live on and live comfortably?
00:12:35
Global Sports Podcast Network
um Yeah, I wonder like what the average salary is when clubs say that they're fully professional. like ah you actually Do you actually pay your players enough to light live? um Anyway, it's consisted of 14 teams since 2022. It used to be 12, like the WSL. This is a little bit of a plea to the WSL. I think we need more teams in the league. I think we've reached that point now.
00:13:03
Global Sports Podcast Network
So it would be good if we could have 14 teams too. And just like Norway, due to the weather, the season runs from March until November. So yeah, I think we're seeing quite a lot of these Northern, Northern Europe countries do have kind of ah summer seasons rather than running over the winter, which does make a lot of sense. um Again, it means that any Swedish teams that we see in the Champions League will be playing kind of opponents from other parts of Europe.
00:13:32
Global Sports Podcast Network
at different times of their season, which I am just really interested in the impact that that kind of will have physically and mentally in terms of fatigue. um Yeah, I just find that really interesting. ah The bottom two teams are relegated and the top three teams qualify for the Champions League. Obviously, there are 14 teams, so three teams at the top. That makes sense. There are eight tiers in the pyramid. That would be a massive cake.
00:13:59
Global Sports Podcast Network
hi um yeah Whenever I hear of tears, I just think of cake. And when I was researching this, it said there are eight tears in the pyramid. I just thought, oh, OK, so it's quite a big cake. Swedish clubs have a strong history of success in European competitions. Again, this is where my pronunciation disclaimer comes in. Umeå and Tresso were among the most dominant teams in the early days of the Champions League. Umeå,
00:14:27
Global Sports Podcast Network
reached the final several times in the 2000s winning the title in 2003 and 2004 and just a little side note in 2004 Marta was the least top scorer you might have heard that name if you haven't been living under a rock in terms of women's football star of the Brazilian national team. ah yeah Swedish clubs have consistently developed world-class players who compete at the highest levels and as I mentioned they did knock out the US women's national team at the last World Cup. um So yeah, one example of a top player who kind of came to the Swedish league because of its competitiveness was Marta, widely regarded as one of the greatest players of all time.
00:15:07
Global Sports Podcast Network
She spent her prime years at Umea, helping to elevate the league's profile globally. um However, much like other leagues we've covered, I think this has been kind of one consistent amongst all of the leagues that we've covered. Maybe maybe the WSL is an exception or is nearly an exception now, but there's a large disparity between the wealthiest kind of top teams and the teams who consistently finish lower down in the league, um which again, I imagine also comes down to things like pay and the extent to which the players can really dedicate themselves to their football and don't have to worry about other things. um This is also reflected in the stadium capacities. The largest is 17,000 at and Pitea and Vitsjo.
00:16:00
Global Sports Podcast Network
So thinking back to previous leagues, we've explored that, still quite sizable. I'm just remembering Scotland. I mean, again, I am half Scottish, so I can be glib about Scotland. Yeah, I do feel for them with their capacity of like 300. One of the teams, I can't remember who it was. um But yeah, a capacity of 300. 3000 isn't that bad, guys. um Games are broadcast on the Swedish channel Vyarplay.
00:16:28
Global Sports Podcast Network
And apparently international viewers can subscribe on fan seat. However, I'm not a hundred percent sure this works. Um, I haven't tried it. I will, I will try it out, but yeah, apparently that's the thing. I don't know. In terms of teams at the moment, Rosengard seemed to be quite prolific.
Sweden's Fan Culture and Broadcasting
00:16:49
Global Sports Podcast Network
They've won 14 titles, including the, uh, 2024 season. Hacken, who again, you will know from the Champions League.
00:16:58
Global Sports Podcast Network
And can I just, as an aside, their fans seem to be like amazing when I watched them play Arsenal, um, not in person on TV. And the fans were just so loud and noisy and you could hear them at kind of for the entire 90 minutes. They never stopped. Um, so shout out to their hacking fans. They've been strong in recent years. They've ah been second for the last four years.
00:17:23
Global Sports Podcast Network
And Hacken was actually a team that um was formed from a couple of other teams, I think, and those teams were also quite strong. So yeah, they're due a title, I think ah we can say after being second for four years. Yeah, come on Hacken, let's get you a title.
00:17:40
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Here at the Global Sports Podcast Network, we spent a lot of time selecting our delivery platform. Zencaster came out the clear winner. With 4K video recording from your phone and AI editing that automatically removes all those ums and ahs, it's super easy to start a podcast that sounds great and is delivered efficiently. So if you're ready to tell your story, check out the link in the show description to learn more about Zencaster.
00:18:04
Global Sports Podcast Network
OK, so on to our last topic for today. We're hopping over to Denmark. And I will admit that I have a bit of an attachment to Denmark because one
Denmark's League and Personal Connections
00:18:14
Global Sports Podcast Network
of my favourite players in ah male men's football hails from Denmark, Christian Ericsson, a huge shout out to him.
00:18:23
Global Sports Podcast Network
um quite a prominent fixture in Manchester United's midfield. In recent years he used to play for Spurs and of course ah you may remember in 2000, I think it was 2021, at the Euros ah when he was playing for Denmark he suffered a cardiac arrest on the pitch ah but has since made a full recovery and is currently playing football again which is just incredible.
00:18:51
Global Sports Podcast Network
um So yeah I thought it would be a good chance to have a look at them and I wanted to learn a bit about Denmark's League. So the League was established in 1973 making it one of the oldest women's football leagues in Europe. I think it's the oldest one we've covered so far. I know we've had 1977 and quite a few of the leagues have had kind of predecessors that were more informal that were created in the 70s but I think the League um in terms of actually having a league, 73 must be the earliest we've had so far. i do I wonder again, I need to research this more, what countries women's football was actually banned in, was it banned in Denmark as well as it was for like England and the Netherlands until the 70s, which I think that's going to have to be another podcast episode in itself, um looking into the reasons why, but
00:19:46
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah, I wonder if, because we've got quite a few women's leagues seem to be starting around the 1970s. So whether it just became more socially accepted then, or whether there was actually kind of bands in place, a I wonder.
Investment and Professionalism in Denmark
00:20:02
Global Sports Podcast Network
Over the years, it has grown in professionalism with increased investment from the Danish football association and corporate sponsors. However, it is still currently semi-professional.
00:20:13
Global Sports Podcast Network
And again, I'm going to bang on about this because I feel like it's important. We need to be playing ah paying, and I keep doing that tonight, ah paying players enough that they can focus their lives on football. If we want the women's game to grow, if you want people to watch it, and quite a few people say they won't watch women's football because they think the standard of the performances is really low,
00:20:38
Global Sports Podcast Network
um Well, you're not going to increase that if you don't invest. like Players surely will perform better, will play more exciting football if they can dedicate their lives to football and they don't have to worry about i if they've had a bad day at work or if um you know their part-time job is has got a sucky manager or something like that.
00:21:03
Global Sports Podcast Network
you know you you can't we've We've got to be investing and paying players enough that they can live on and focus on football. Anyway, historically, there have been dominant teams. Again, disclaimer, maybe, yeah, I do need sound effect. Fortuna Whoring, one of the most successful clubs, ah known for their consistent performances domestically and in Europe. And there's also been Bronbe, another powerhouse with a strong history in both the league and the Champions League.
00:21:36
Global Sports Podcast Network
However, more recently, there are emerging teams like HB Kogi or Kog. They've recently challenged the dominance of the traditional powerhouses. And I always think it's really good when you get kind of new teams coming in and challenging the existing.
00:21:51
Global Sports Podcast Network
hierarchy because it means that the league is becoming more competitive and that more teams are beginning to invest more strongly in women's football. um I think, yeah, you do see it, you're seeing it a little bit in the WSL with kind of historically you've had Arsenal and Chelsea and now you do get a Man City challenging.
00:22:12
Global Sports Podcast Network
ah For them, I wish I could say Manchester United as well, but ah after quite a few of the headlines over the last few months for Manchester United, I don't think I can put them in that category, unfortunately. um So yeah.
00:22:27
Global Sports Podcast Network
In terms of players who have played in the Danish league, you have Danish internationals like Peniel Harder, who currently plays by Munich, ah one of the Champions League's top goal scorers this year. Just to point out, she scored a hat-trick against Arsenal in that 5-2 comeback win, which was just, I'm going to keep mentioning that game because that was just an outstanding game, um especially if you're relatively neutral. I mean, I do like Bayern, so I'm not entirely neutral, but I'm not like You know, I'm i'm not an ultra, so I can be somewhat neutral. The league has kind of gone between having six and eight teams. It currently has eight. It works in a split way. So they have a league phase where it's a normal kind of round robin. Everyone plays each other home and away. And after this, this is quite interesting. The league splits into two groups. So you have a championship group, the top six teams, and a relegation group, the bottom two teams.
00:23:24
Global Sports Podcast Network
and the top two from the next division down. So whereas I think we've seen previously like the Eredivisé used to be like the top four and the bottom four in one league, ah this is quite interesting because it's the bottom two and the top two from the next league down.
00:23:43
Global Sports Podcast Network
um who all compete together. And they did this to make sure the league remains competitive throughout the whole season and that they don't have, um and that all of the teams can play competitive games, including those in the league below.
00:23:58
Global Sports Podcast Network
Now, something really interesting I found. According to FIFA's 2023 Women's Benchmarking Report, I said, why didn't I know about this? Like, did you guys know about this? I need to find it. I need to read the full entirety of the report. So, yeah, according to the FIFA 2023 Women's Benchmarking Report, in 2021-22, the Danish leave drew in average tendencies of around 380.
00:24:27
Global Sports Podcast Network
which isn't huge. um Yeah. and I mean, you still wouldn't fit all of them into a couple of the grants we've talked about ah in Scotland, but
International Success and Challenges
00:24:37
Global Sports Podcast Network
yeah, 380 is not massive. and And during that time, only 29% of players could actually live on their salaries.
00:24:46
Global Sports Podcast Network
I'll leave it. I won't go into that again. ah The League, again, like the Scottish League ah we talked about before, had a really difficult time during the Covid pandemic, as the rules in Denmark were that only professional sports were allowed to resume and could therefore, you know, generate revenue.
00:25:06
Global Sports Podcast Network
Whilst, as mentioned, the women's league was only semi-professional, so it wasn't actually allowed um to start again for quite a long time, which of course means that teams couldn't generate money, ah revenue, because they weren't selling tickets and things, so that had quite a detrimental impact um on the on their season.
00:25:27
Global Sports Podcast Network
Although interest in the sport is rising domestically, the best players do still play for club support. Players like Peniel Harder for Bayern Munich ah is probably just the most ah the main example.
00:25:42
Global Sports Podcast Network
There's also Janie Arendt who plays for Rangers in Scotland. um Now she's got quite an interesting history. I'm going to put in the description an article that I found that's really interesting about ah Danish women's football.
00:25:59
Global Sports Podcast Network
And it kind of took ah interviews, Janine Arndt, and she says that she talks about the 2017 euros when Denmark got to the final. ah They were eventually beaten by Serena Riegman's Netherlands 4-2. However, getting to the final, of course, as we've said before, huge achievement. Only two teams can get to a final. And she talked about the what an achievement that was saying we worked hard for that for so many years. It was something that really boosted the women's game and national team. It opened people's eyes towards the national team and how good we actually were. People started learning about who the players were and everything related to the team. Additionally, the league grew and it drove the game forward. We made a big statement allowing us to take the next step in women's football in general. And I just think these things are fantastic when kind of you get that growth that comes from strong performances and comes from success like
00:26:52
Global Sports Podcast Network
we've had with England and the WSL after the 2022 euros. I just think that's really good but good because it stands up and kind of says, you did this yourselves. like This wasn't someone coming in and saying, I'm going to make this the biggest league. This was off the back of your own performances, of your own strength, of your own success, building something great, which again, is really, really good. She does ah in the interview highlight as well um that in Denmark, it was a lot more difficult to actually make a living playing football as a woman and that that's why a lot of Danish players did move aboard. um And I think, again, you know my feelings about that, but it's interesting to see it actually highlighted from a player.
00:27:44
Global Sports Podcast Network
What she actually said was, when I moved abroad, I feel certain countries were a bit further along with their organization and were doing it within bigger clubs, which gave them an advantage. ah That's probably because they started investing in women's football a bit earlier.
00:27:58
Global Sports Podcast Network
The biggest thing that the progression in bigger leagues is quite good and that it means it's easier to be a full-time professional footballer outside compared to Denmark. And that's one of the major factors. Since I've been abroad, I've been able to be a football player full-time and that's been my mindset at all times, which has allowed me to fu fulfill my potential and easily adapt to the country and culture. I'm also surrounded by and I play against players who are in football full-time, which helps lift my game. And I think that just explains it all.
00:28:27
Global Sports Podcast Network
um That is what I want to end on. I think that is something that we can take away that so many of these leagues that we're talking about that
Conclusion and Personal Growth
00:28:35
Global Sports Podcast Network
I'm exploring are still semi-professional, which I think when you kind of look at the top teams that are televised, more kind of that do ah play in the Champions League, for example, you might not necessarily realize that kind of the leagues that they play in, where they come from domestically, the leagues are still semi-professional and players do have to work at the same time as playing football. So yeah, I will end with that just to say thank you again for joining me. I hope this series is ah informative for you. It's really been good for me. I've really enjoyed learning about these different leagues and we look forward to welcoming you to the next episode of Beyond the Pitch. Thank you.