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Beyond the Pitch Episode 78: Redefining Femininity: Breaking Stereotypes in Football and Coaching:
9 Plays9 days ago
Thank you for joining Briony and Raj on todays episode.
On today’s episode we’re diving into a topic that goes beyond tactics and goals: femininity in football and coaching.
We’ll explore how societal expectations and stereotypes around femininity have historically influenced the sport and how these perceptions continue to shape the experiences of players and coaches. From the struggles female athletes face in breaking free from outdated norms to the ways femininity intersects with leadership in coaching, we’re uncovering how the game is evolving to challenge these narratives.
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Transcript
Introduction to Beyond the Pitch
00:00:11
Global Sports Podcast Network
Hello and welcome to Beyond the Pitch, a daily women's football podcast brought to you by the Global Sports Podcast Network. Today it's brought to you by myself, Bryony, and I'm joined as per usual by Raj.
00:00:22
Global Sports Podcast Network
How are we doing?
00:00:24
Raj
Hello, yeah, I'm good, you.
00:00:26
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah, Olga, thank you. Been a little while.
00:00:30
Raj
It's been a long time, hasn't it? it's so I'm ready for it. It's going to be a good one today, I reckon.
00:00:34
Global Sports Podcast Network
yeah Yeah, same. I think it's going to be a good one. um Definitely something that's quite personal to me, I'm sure to you. um Yeah, we'll all get
Societal Expectations and Femininity in Football
00:00:46
Global Sports Podcast Network
onto it. But yeah, so we will today dive into a topic that goes beyond tactics and goals. We will look at femininity in football and in football coaching. We will explore how societal expectations and stereotypes around femininity have historically influenced the sport and how these perceptions continue to shape the experiences of players and coaches.
00:01:07
Global Sports Podcast Network
from the struggles that female coaches face in breaking free from outdated norms to the ways that femininity intersect with leadership in coaching will uncover how the game is evolving to challenge these narratives. So to start with, let's look at how traditional perceptions of femininity have, I think, clashed with the rise of women's football and how these conflicts still resonate. so how How would you say that maybe historical attitudes towards femininity have influenced the way the game's developed on a general level?
Historical Objectification of Female Footballers
00:01:47
Raj
Um, negatively. unfortunately firstly. I think obviously we were going to do a podcast on it anyway and um it was really interesting watching the ah COPA documentary about the Women's World Cup that was banned in Mexico um and the reason that that was allowed to go ahead and happen is because um the the board in Mexico found it a money making opportunity and their marketing for it was women are going to be in hot pants. And that's how they got men to buy tickets for this World Cup. So they marketed
00:02:41
Raj
the women's first World Cup on how the women are going to look and the fact that there's going to be lots of women there playing football in the sun and it had nothing to do with tactics all the way women play football.
Struggles with Femininity vs Competence
00:02:58
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah and I'll jump straight in on it and So some of my previous research, I did an interview with a female player who made a really interesting um statement actually that I put straight into the paper and like quoted it. And she'd said something around, we're talking kind of about this, um the masculine gaze on it and the perception of, you know, can I still be feminine and be good at what I do? And as a player, she had said, you know,
00:03:29
Global Sports Podcast Network
I remember this one game where these guys had walked by the pitch, they had wolf whistled, they'd made some comments and she said, you know, what do you want me to do? Do you want me to like put a scrunchie in my hair and pull my shorts up a bit higher? Like it really is this you are a certain way or you're not and therefore you're competent at the game or you're not.
00:03:48
Raj
yeah
00:03:50
Global Sports Podcast Network
You know, it's just this I think attitudes is probably exactly the right word where you are given this, you're put into boxes, you're you're categorized by you're in this box, you're in this box, you're feminine, you're masculine, sport is a masculine domain. And therefore, can I still be stereotypically feminine with feminine traits and still be taken seriously and deemed competent at what I do?
00:04:19
Raj
No.
00:04:21
Global Sports Podcast Network
Rhetorical question, I don't know, but.
00:04:23
Raj
But we know, from my personal experience, it's still in 2024, especially the last bit, it's near enough impossible to be taken seriously. I think it was Duggan,
00:04:46
Raj
that Rose is new jargon that goes out with Douglas Louise.
00:04:47
Global Sports Podcast Network
I'm turning it on, yeah.
00:04:52
Raj
And they both...
00:04:52
Global Sports Podcast Network
Oh, Alicia Lehman.
00:04:54
Raj
Oh, sorry, Alicia Lehman, apologies.
00:04:56
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah, mm-hmm.
00:04:57
Raj
I should not check that. And she made a statement saying that they're both playing the same level of football in their female football, male football. And why is it that Douglas gets paid so much more than me when we both put exactly the same amount of hours into our work, dedication, et cetera, et cetera. And it
Pay Disparity in Football
00:05:20
Raj
came out, it was made to be this massive thing, first of all. Whereas if a male footballer had came out and said that he hadn't been paid too much, it would have just been nipped in the bud and they would have just gave him some more money.
00:05:32
Raj
in my personal opinion. Firstly, they the whole of social media, every sport page you could think of blew up and made it this massive thing that she'd had the audacity to complain in the first place. And secondly, the absolutely disgusting complaints that were underneath it and saying, just along the lines of, I'll get an OnlyFans love, you'll do much better than that.
00:06:00
Raj
or you really meant for the pitch love anyway, that you wear too much makeup when you play anyway. Or you're just there to boost his career, et cetera, et cetera. And she is, make takes care of her appearance when she plays football. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's a good football player. But can she be both and be taken seriously boy buy that by those comments and by the few conversations that I had around it.
00:06:32
Raj
I work in a very male dominated industry as well. I had the exact same comments. I think I can probably think of one positive comment that was rained around it.
00:06:43
Raj
And when I say positive, it wasn't even a positive comment. It was just a comment from a guy that was just like, yeah, she has a good point.
00:06:49
Global Sports Podcast Network
Thank you.
00:06:51
Raj
But I see that as like, wow, yeah, massive positive comment. How sad is that?
00:06:56
Global Sports Podcast Network
but It makes my butt blood boil. Like I'm literally, what everyone can't see is I'm sat here now like unable to contain the grin over my face because it's just, what what the heck more do, you know, nine times out of 10 as well, women just mind their own business and just get on with it.
00:07:15
Global Sports Podcast Network
And they're just doing what they want to do. They're not even asking for anyone to say anything. They're not asking for anything either way, but they so is still unwarrantedly get it.
00:07:22
Raj
Yeah, exactly.
00:07:23
Global Sports Podcast Network
Um,
00:07:25
Raj
Opinions will be made and they'll be judged and they'll be abused for just going about there like every day. That's just the same as her doing any ordinary job and saying, why aren't I being paid this much because I do this, this, this, but because it's football and she's making the right
00:07:42
Global Sports Podcast Network
And it's exactly that, isn't it? Like, you know, we talk about the which about the media as well.
00:07:45
Raj
hey
00:07:48
Global Sports Podcast Network
And, you know, you talk about Alicia Lehman, she's been huge in this respect. And I remember, well, it doesn't take, it's not rocket science to figure out the where Alicia Lehman is concerned.
00:07:58
Global Sports Podcast Network
She is, look at the the camera angles on her when she plays and
00:08:01
Raj
This is Dustin.
00:08:04
Global Sports Podcast Network
the way she's covered. And I also seem to remember it was all over the place when it come out that she and Douglas and Louise were dating. And she I think she'd previously been with a woman and that is all that anybody cared about was quite, you know, was her sexuality. That's all that mattered. And it's just, you know, it doesn't, you know, she's just like every other woman, you know, she's good looking, whatever else and stereotypically in people's eyes, she's just that and the other. book It's just these kinds of media coverages and the way that people like her are represented and covered that it becomes a normalisation to continue to it to everybody else because it's it it's just normal.
00:08:46
Raj
um
00:08:48
Global Sports Podcast Network
people like you know The media don't even question it before they release it anymore because it's so normal and abhorrent to have already done it.
00:08:55
Raj
Exactly.
00:08:55
Global Sports Podcast Network
um
00:08:57
Raj
on a I find it really, really unfair and really I can't imagine what she must go through because
00:08:57
Global Sports Podcast Network
and
00:09:08
Raj
On one hand, she's getting to do what she loves every day for a job and what she's passionate about. But on the other hand, she's really paying for it because of her gender and because of the way she chooses to represent herself. And I just, for me personally, I don't think the majority of male footballers will ever, ever have to deal with a situation like that in their lives.
00:09:37
Global Sports Podcast Network
No, they won't. And that is going to
Gender Biases in Coaching
00:09:39
Global Sports Podcast Network
bring us very nicely to the first ad break, where in no male player ever will, but I think even more so will male coaches. And I think that's what we'll talk about next.
00:09:50
Global Sports Podcast Network
The Global Sports Podcast Network is changing the face of football podcasts with dedicated daily content for every Premier League team, women's football, fancy football and a daily Premier League wrap-up broadcast in five different languages. This is your one-stop shop for your daily football fix. Find GSPN wherever you find your usual podcasts.
00:10:12
Global Sports Podcast Network
So as I say, I think say think I know from experience um that this is just as prominent, if not more prominent in the leadership and the coaching landscape.
00:10:18
Raj
So.
00:10:26
Global Sports Podcast Network
um I'm going to start there. So I'm going to open the floor here by um sharing an experience of mine very recently, wherein my girls that had a game, the team that I coach,
00:10:41
Global Sports Podcast Network
It was a big game, there was a lot of stake for a number of reasons. And it got back that a comment had been made um obviously about me, um wherein the opposition coach had turned around and said that the amount of makeup on the coach's face had carried the squad on the day.
00:11:05
Global Sports Podcast Network
You see, firstly, I don't even know what the lo- I can't even- I've racked my brains more just because I find the humour in it, but I actually can't physically understand the logic of that. I don't even know what that's meant to mean.
00:11:19
Raj
I can't even, I can't even take it seriously.
00:11:25
Global Sports Podcast Network
Like, what's- I don't- I don't- I can't even try to figure out what the logic is or the logistics behind that is, like...
00:11:26
Raj
a
00:11:32
Global Sports Podcast Network
No, I don't know.
00:11:33
Raj
Jealousy.
00:11:35
Global Sports Podcast Network
Well, yeah, but what's, like, what's makeup on my face going to do to the performance of my players?
00:11:41
Raj
Quite literally. And why on earth are you more if you were a bit more bothered about what was going on the pitch rather than what was on your face he might have won the game.
00:11:53
Global Sports Podcast Network
Exactly. You know, I've kind of said since, you know, maybe he ought to try wearing makeup. They might want to game next time.
00:11:59
Raj
I just you know we say the same thing every podcast we do we try so hard to look for different topics but there's not one because unfortunately we get so much ammunition of stupid comments like this and silly behaviors because unfortunately it always almost is men think it's okay to say comments like this
00:12:36
Raj
and not think about how might it affect that individual going forward. Luckily, he picked on the wrong wrong person because you're fantastic at what you do, strong, confident, and you beat him and you would beat him every day of the week. However, had that got back to the wrong coach, to a less experienced coach, to a less confident coach that was maybe apprehensive about coaching in the first place, i've just got their foot in the door ah because of things like this.
00:13:15
Raj
And then that got back to them. Where do you think they'd be in their coaching journey now? Probably. yeah
00:13:21
Global Sports Podcast Network
Exactly yeah exactly and you know again um surprise surprise um I'll be doing some thesis research or master's research this year my thesis around a lot of the research is like is made links with but not actually um investigated the the position ah the positionality and the adapt ah adaptations that female coaches make to their own practice and identity in order to fit into how they feel they should be perceived, i.e.
00:13:55
Global Sports Podcast Network
every female coach would all be lying if we didn't say we didn't act in a way that's maybe somewhat some of the traits or behaviors or we do it because they're more masculinity or masculine acceptable and you know there's even like so there's research at the moment about around um you know fun and enjoyment in coaching and practice being a very feminine coach kind of um exactly yeah roll of the eyes exactly that's my point and so i've always been a big coach i will always say to my players did you enjoy that at the end of the session but the research is telling us that that is so feminine perceived
00:14:36
Global Sports Podcast Network
And those traits are so associated with feminine but behavior. How, to be, to be real, how often do you hear a male coach turn around and say, lads, did you enjoy the session?
00:14:47
Global Sports Podcast Network
No, because it's, you know, it's not.
00:14:48
Raj
fourteen
00:14:51
Global Sports Podcast Network
No. And you know, it's. As coaches, we are so, you know, pushed, I think. some Some of us resist it. Some of us will resist the power um hierarchy and the expectations that we feel.
00:15:05
Global Sports Podcast Network
Some of us will, without even realising, change the way we do things, change the way we dress, change the way we talk, change the practices we do because it's too fun, it's too nurturing.
00:15:14
Raj
That's why I hate all of these men.
00:15:18
Global Sports Podcast Network
is too supportive of players. You know, we as female coaches are renowned for being more in touch with the emotional side of our players, which is a positive thing, yet so many female coaches are stripping it back because they're not going to be perceived as competent for doing so. It is absolutely mad and I guess that's where this research I'm interested to see how, to what extent do Female coaches resist doing it and changing their identity and their philosophy and the way they coach and in what ways do they adapt and position themselves differently. I think i think it'll be really interesting to see what the finest are but it it just goes to show like I said with some of the research already that are comparing the traits in practice and actually putting them into feminine and masculine boxes in coaching which is just mad to me.
00:16:12
Raj
I'm sorry but it's sad. I say that about everything. It's so sad because exactly what you just said there is the female triates are always seen as a negative but actually have male coaches actually tried practicing some of these things as well, seeing what behaviours they get out of their players and see if it affects any of their games.
00:16:38
Raj
I can think of handful of examples already. Deliali, Jesse Lingard, Marcus Rashford. All players that at one point in their game were fantastic footballers.
00:16:52
Raj
And along the way, they had some troubles with their mental health. Richardson, right?
00:16:58
Global Sports Podcast Network
Mm hmm.
00:17:00
Raj
Had it had been spotted sooner by someone within the club. Okay, this this we know what this player's capable of.
00:17:14
Raj
They're not performing in in the way that they usually perform. them Okay, maybe we need to do some sort of intervention where we empathize a little bit with this player and see what's going on.
00:17:23
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yep.
00:17:23
Raj
Could that have saved their career a little bit more? Or do we just say, that person's absolutely rubbish, get him off the pitch. Like all the male fans would have.
00:17:35
Raj
and maybe them all of the male staff at the club. Football is changing, whether I'm sorry, the higher ups within the game want to see it or not. I couldn't care less. I love it and I want it to change because unfortunately I love it, but it's not in a good place at the moment.
00:18:00
Raj
And that's because of people higher up trying to resist change. But change needs to happen in order to make things better sometimes. And this is one of those scenarios where really it really needs to happen.
00:18:15
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah, exactly. And you know, kind of how we touch there on like, There is this resistance to
Adapting Coaching Styles in Male-Dominated Spaces
00:18:22
Global Sports Podcast Network
it, but when we kind of go back more towards the idea of um categorizing um traits as a coach into feminine and masculine and it's like so instantly there is just this underlying sometimes more direct consensus where women feel without being told
00:18:46
Global Sports Podcast Network
You know is this they don't even have to be it doesn't have to be outwardly said that they need their traits to be inherently masculine in that space to be deemed competent and you know The level of authenticity in female coaching is null a lot of the time.
00:19:04
Raj
Mm.
00:19:06
Global Sports Podcast Network
It's so not particularly real. Coach education doesn't help. Again, something I'll dive into through the research. But, you know, you want you step onto a course where everyone is male, pretty much.
00:19:17
Raj
Mm-hmm.
00:19:18
Global Sports Podcast Network
There is the most, there's this just awful, underlying kind of, I hate.
00:19:25
Raj
atmosphere. Such an la a
00:19:27
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah. It is and you, you feel so out of place, so out of place.
00:19:32
Raj
I really don't enjoy it.
00:19:35
Global Sports Podcast Network
And the coach education is so traditional, it's so traditional to the book still.
00:19:35
Raj
and
00:19:40
Global Sports Podcast Network
And unfortunately, traditional football is even more masculine-gazed. And so female coaches are coming out the other side of coach education, and they're being an inherently drilled to coach in a masculine way, which then doesn't often...
00:19:59
Global Sports Podcast Network
um you know I can say from experience that I've stepped off of course and back courses and back into my own environment where I'm like, what the hell, this doesn't work. This just doesn't work with my players.
00:20:10
Global Sports Podcast Network
And I i instantly revert back. And i guess I guess I don't even know what the solution is at the moment. Maybe I'll come up with that solution further down the research, but it's baffling.
00:20:21
Raj
someone Because exactly exactly you just said it doesn't work because all all the education is so male focused and because they don't adapt it. There's not enough adaptation even though They like to rave about, oh, we've got this many females included in the game since ah whenever. OK, that's good. And females are different to males. You've got more females coming in. So how have you adapted it? Have you adapted the education? Have you adapted the coaching? Have you adapted the training? Have you adapted the inclusivity? There's not been much adaptation. And like you said, I
00:21:06
Raj
definitely for some odd reason without even knowing definitely change my coaching traits especially when around other male coaches as well and i do it um I do it without realizing and then I step away and I hate myself and that's a strong statement but I do because I'm just like Why have I fallen into that trap of having to adapt because someone was with me? I know I'm confident in my ability as a coach. I'm confident in my passion in the game. Yet I've let this person, because of their gender and because of their opinions and thoughts, change my style of coaching and the way I am. I remember I was coaching a session um about a year and a half ago
00:22:01
Raj
And I had my hair down. I was coaching. I've got really long hair. It was really long at this point. um And I just had it down. I didn't even think about it. I just didn't think about putting it up or whatever. And I rocked up to my coaching session she with my hair down. And I remember one of the male old coaches just turned around and saying,
00:22:25
Raj
They're coming for a party or for a coaching session. into that I can't believe I haven't told you this before, yeah, actually. And I was just like, what? It's like, yeah, it looks nice.
00:22:42
Raj
What? I get headaches because my hair is so heavy. It's better for me when I have it down. So I've resorted to just wearing a cap everywhere I go because it makes me feel more confident and like my hair's tucked away and out of the way. And that is such a little psychological thing that I didn't realize I do, but I do it.
00:23:07
Global Sports Podcast Network
You know, it's interesting you say that because I only the other day had exactly a very similar thing where I had to work at the Argo game a couple of nights ago and it was so, so cold.
00:23:21
Global Sports Podcast Network
And I was like, I could probably do with my beanie hat on tonight because my head's going to be freezing. If I have my hair up in a ponytail I can normally do, it ain't going to go on.
00:23:29
Raj
Mary.
00:23:30
Global Sports Podcast Network
So I was like, do I have my hair down? But then I had to do a bit of reffing before as well. And I was like, do you know what? I'm just going to do it. So I had my hair down. But it was constantly in the back of my head like people just not going to take me as seriously.
00:23:41
Global Sports Podcast Network
And that sounds so crazy, but I'm going to walk into that environment and my hair down and people not going to take me seriously now and just look at me like some girly girl who doesn't know what she's doing.
00:23:42
Raj
Yes, it was so good.
00:23:51
Global Sports Podcast Network
She'll never have to think like that.
00:23:53
Raj
the But that thought just automatically popped into your mind, isn't it?
00:23:57
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah.
00:23:57
Raj
And then you're self-conscious and then you're thinking about that and not what you should be doing.
00:24:03
Global Sports Podcast Network
Mm hmm.
00:24:04
Raj
It's just so crazy yet male footballers can have top-notch, long hair, lush hair bands in their hair, like whatever they want.
00:24:16
Raj
And people will be like, whoa, that's so cool. Like, wow. And we'll do it. And they'll be like, oh, could you even play football? Like, what?
00:24:29
Raj
What?
00:24:29
Global Sports Podcast Network
On that note, we are going to have to pause there and go to an ad break, ah but we'll continue that in a moment.
00:24:35
Raj
who
00:24:46
Raj
Here at Global Sports Podcast Network, we spend a lot of time selecting our delivery platform. Zencaster came out the clear winner. With 4K video recording from your phone and AI editing that automatically removes all those ons and r's, it's super easy to start a podcast that sounds great and is delivered efficiently. If you're ready to tell your story, check out the link in the show description and learn more about Zencaster.
00:25:12
Global Sports Podcast Network
I'm going to continue straight on from what you just said. Um, it kind of really is that one more for one, one for another, but it is, it really fascinates me how it's such an inherent, like instant automatic thought to have. It's the first thing, like why am, you know, again, like I come back to makeup, like that's just me. That's my identity and.
00:25:37
Global Sports Podcast Network
I feel put together like that. Yeah, actually, I often go, have I got too much makeup on today? Am I going to be undermined? Am I going to be referred to as love instead of briny?
00:25:51
Global Sports Podcast Network
I don't mind that, but there's also, in the professional capacity, they're not going to turn around to the other male coaches and call them love, are they? Do you know what I mean?
00:25:59
Raj
Absolutely no. Absolutely
00:26:02
Global Sports Podcast Network
You know, it's it's just that, like, you know,
Feminine Appearance and Competence Perception
00:26:06
Global Sports Podcast Network
in kind of, I suppose, the evolvement of football in recent years, like, It's interesting when you look ah back at like so like the COPPA documentary that we were talking about earlier, you look back at like the old lionesses in comparison to the new lionesses, and there definitely has been a shift in appearance and you know accept the acceptability of wearing makeup and you know wearing your false lashes and having your nails done on the pitch. It's a lot more accepted now
00:26:38
Global Sports Podcast Network
but accepted comes at the cost of, like I say, it's this big word, competence. um And I guess it's, again, it comes back to this question of, do we think that coaches in particular will successfully redefine what it means to be feminine in football? I mean, if it was up to me, why can't we just scrap feminine and masculinity full stop?
00:27:07
Raj
quite literally in focus on football and results.
00:27:09
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah, exactly. Why is that not the main focus? Everything is so inherently stemmed and biased from um putting everyone into boxes and categories all the time. Like all the time, everything. And what can but can like not national government bodies do about it? Not really a lot.
00:27:31
Global Sports Podcast Network
can they i mean like the fa What can the FA do other than bat out the discrimination when it when it arises? but Because that's what it is, it's discriminatory. That comment that got made to me about um how much makeup I had on my face and winning the game. but you were you know Have you turned up for a party or a coaching session? like That's discriminatory.
00:27:54
Global Sports Podcast Network
because I would never turn around to a male coach for something that he was wearing like if they turned up with like ah like a pink sock on I wouldn't say anything because stereotypically I could put him into a box.
00:28:03
Raj
the and then That's literally it. And I think it's about opening up those opportunities for females initially and opening it it opening it up
Impact of Female Representation in Leadership
00:28:24
Raj
way more than it is already and having the opportunity there and being more inclusive but just I don't know I'm um kind of finding it hard to put into words but the more females that are put into the more senior roles and higher roles and
00:28:45
Raj
given a chance and an opportunity, the more females in the game are going to be taken seriously. And the more female representation we have and the way they represent themselves is the way they can represent themselves.
00:28:59
Raj
And we can just stamp out stereotypes. If we get more female coaches and they want to be super feminine, let them because that's okay. it's all about results driven if they don't get rid the results they get sacked but they're not getting sacked on the basis of they've got too much makeup on but it all stems from the people right at the top and at the moment I've said it before there just needs to be a massive restructure because of the people at the top are unfortunately the people who have us like puppets because
00:29:14
Global Sports Podcast Network
Exactly.
00:29:31
Raj
They can make or break our careers, unfortunately, because they have the top say in everything, just like for 50 years when women's football was banned. That was all out of our control. And that was because people at the top that said females don't have the body structure to play football. Okay, whatever that means. um And they physically stopped women playing football. So they had the power.
00:29:59
Raj
to do that. And unfortunately, they still have that level of power now to put in into roles who they want to and who they don't want to and make successful who they do and don't want to as well.
00:30:11
Global Sports Podcast Network
I mean, all and I'll end it on this note.
00:30:12
Raj
Unfortunately.
00:30:14
Global Sports Podcast Network
What I will say is when I go out and I step foot on the touch line before that whistle goes and I've done my hair and I've put my makeup on and I feel good, I feel like a boss, I normally do well.
00:30:26
Raj
Yes, girl. So the more made up, the better. And that's what we're saying. and Whether you like it or not, whoever's listening.
00:30:37
Global Sports Podcast Network
We'll end it there on a high.
00:30:39
Raj
yeah
00:30:39
Global Sports Podcast Network
um Because that is all we have time for today. So thank you for joining us. And we look forward to welcoming you to our next episode of Beyond the Pitch. See you all later.
00:30:50
Raj
e