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Episode 9 - A Conversation with Deborah Kimmett
102 Plays7 months ago
In today’s episode, trailblazing comedian Deborah Kimmett joins us for a candid conversation about her book, “Window Shopping for God”, which recounts her times leaving the Catholic church, her growing pains, and her recovery from addiction and mental health issues. Through her characteristic humour and wit, Deborah gives us a refreshingly honest account of her lifelong search for meaning and herself.
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Transcript
Introduction to Voice of Canadian Humanism
00:00:10
Speaker
Welcome to the Voice of Canadian Humanism, the official podcast of Humanist Canada. Join us as we delve into thought-provoking discussions, explore critical issues, and celebrate the values of reason, compassion, and secularism through the Humanist lens. Welcome to the conversation.
Interview with Deborah Kimmett: From Catholicism to Comedy
00:00:29
Speaker
In today's episode, trailblazing comedian Deborah Kimmett joins me for a candid conversation about her book Window Shopping for God, which recounts her times leaving the Catholic Church, growing pains, and her recovery from addiction and mental health issues. Through her characteristic humor and wit, Deborah gives us a refreshingly honest account of her lifelong surge for meaning and herself. Let's begin.
00:00:57
Speaker
Thank you, myself. Yes, I am Jared and I am here with the one and only, fantastic, Deborah Kimmett. How are you doing today, Deborah? I'm great. I'm great. How are you? Wonderful. all right We're here because you have written a wonderful, delightful book, Window Shopping for God. Now, I'm sure you have an elevator pitch for this book. Let's go ahead. What do you have the elevator pitch for? How how could we surmise this whole book into two sentences? Well, I just, that's very good. I'm sorry, like I should have been more prepared. I'll just say that it's a book, it's called Window Shopping for God, a comedian's ah search for meaning. And basically, I was
00:01:47
Speaker
you know, raised with a particular religion. And then as I rejected that, I kind of went around finding new deities to worship and between, you know, going in different philosophies and then negative things. I had this idea that I was window shopping for something to fix me, to save me from comedy, to men, to drinking, to Sufis. And, you know, at the end, what do I do? I find myself. Yes, I do. Isn't that the shouldn't that be the goal of ah going on a spiritual journey is finding yourself in the end and right So what tell me about yourself Deborah, I mean obviously this book window shopping for God I'm gonna keep holding it up. Even though this is an audio podcast um Just what see I'm waving in the air. Um, so I got to get it's it's
00:02:38
Speaker
It's about your spiritual journey, but it's also about you. And I got to learn about you because I'm i'm not from this country. I was born and raised in Texas. So i was I'm not familiar with, I'm going to say the comedic icons that came out of um this Toronto area in the 80s, 90s to present day. So I wasn't aware of you or your work. And I got to learn about you along the way as you were learning about yourself. Good. Good. Yeah.
Finding Comedy and Career with Second City
00:03:05
Speaker
Yeah, I started in comedy. um I wanted to be a journalist, but then you had to tell the truth. So I quickly it was like, Oh, you want facts? I i want to tell you what I thought I saw. and so I happened to come to Toronto from small community and thought I'd be a serious actress. And within, you know, a couple of months I was working and
00:03:30
Speaker
going to class and then eventually working at the Second City Theatre in Toronto. And it was an improvisational ah group. And I really liked it for a couple of reasons. One is when I was growing up, I was growing up in a very small kind of conservative, very religious family. And everything that I thought of outside the box was sort of scary to people. I don't know, I think maybe I was, thinking that that was that. And then I came to Toronto and I got at the Second City and finally it felt like my brain made sense. You know, it was like, oh, I think A plus B equals C. I think A plus B equals Z. And, you know, in the book I make a joke, like when I thought like that as a kid, they sent me to the priest for confession. And then at Second City, they, you know, it was like, well, that's a great idea. And it was kind of like the Wild West back then because I didn't know anything.
00:04:25
Speaker
And I was learning the craft of improv, which is really a very serious craft, but it formed, although I don't do improv anymore, um it really was the nurturing ground for being a writer. And it gave me a lot of tools that I still use. um um It was a really jump big jumping off point for me. Oh, wonderful. So, um, but so how long were you with Second City? Well, I mean, I know in the book, at some point, Second City was like, we need a break. And then you had to go on and do your own thing, but and
00:04:57
Speaker
Well, I did two years there as a comedian and then I came back about three or four years later and I taught and performed and directed there for the next 20 years off and on. But, you know, it was a freelance gig. I wasn't there full time. Well, that's good. Okay. And so, I mean, who did you get to ah work with um that you still remember to this day? I don't, it was a very, I sound like I'm not going to be a great interview on this one because all the people that were famous were the cast before me. And I really didn't come into my own there. I came into my own after I left. It wasn't the best personal experience for me. But as I said, it was the groundwork. It was a very stressful time. So in the sense of it was the stakes were high because it was only a handful of people that could be on the main stage and that would be, you know, big people coming in. But anyway, that's not the book at all. That's not really what my book's about. But
Catholic Upbringing: A Humorous Take
00:05:54
Speaker
no, not at all. No, no. Jumping off point.
00:05:57
Speaker
So but in in your book, you start out, um you start out your life. I mean, obviously, in the very small town of me, I say Napani that I I don't want to brag, but I now know where it is. Oh, I happen to be driving I happen to be driving back from my friend's cottage this weekend. And I it was like, now entering the greater Napani area. I'm like, Napani, I know that. I know that place. I just found out about that. Napani. Yeah. Yeah. So you grew up in Napanee and you were, let's just say Catholic with a capital C with a popad over the eye. That's how Catholic you were raised. And then, and then you, you went through an incident in your teenage years. I don't want to spoil a big points and in the book. And then you began to think differently and that was the launching off point. Well, I was telling someone this the other night about just in general, we grew up
00:06:48
Speaker
in a small town, but not only that, there was no outside influence. So you had you know just what your family and friends and the neighborhood thought. And um I have a friend who's going to interview me for a book signing, and i he and I were in theater together, so we were odd ducks in Napi. Oh, and that's a bond that nobody really knows unless they do it. you know they And we were so Catholic, Like, I found out way too late that Santa Claus didn't exist. Like, it was 12. People were like, you have to get into reality. And then one day I told a joke to my mother that the priest and a magician were the same thing because they had to create things out of thin air. And she just got furious. She goes, and i she goes the the nuns baked the, like, the host, the Eucharist for the cooking. And I was like,
00:07:46
Speaker
Well, what is the point of that then? like They baked them. I thought we were praying so hard that if we didn't pray, there would be no wafers for communion. and um You were manifesting it through your prayers. They also said to me, well, that's crazy, but i'm like you but you believe it's Jesus at the end of the communion. so i think I think we have both a stake in this little fantasy. But I was talking to a friend who's been interviewing me and he said, well, I was 17. and he said I drove the car for the priest and he said can you drop by the convent and pick up the hosts for the communion and he said he had to pull over to the side of the road because he said couldn't believe that like we were so naive and I don't think maybe I don't know maybe do people exist with that naivete today I don't know so I think it was a really 1969 1975 a lot of people
00:08:39
Speaker
in my age group were raised in a very traditional way and were breaking out into new ideas simply by questioning things. I think it's happening today, but certainly my age group, we were like, oh, there's there's Vietnamese food. Oh, my gosh. More than sweet and sour chicken balls at the Chinese. We had no outside influences. So during the 70s and early 80s, it was just like, wow, let's have some fun. let's burn the house down and I almost did you know so yeah and at the same time I was searching um because I I said I think people who are non um maybe weren't raised in religion they get up and they don't think about whether there's a god or not but for years like that debate was on the in the back of my head
00:09:33
Speaker
I was either being really quite revolutionary, not believing, or I was angry like, I don't believe
Spiritual Exploration Beyond Religion
00:09:39
Speaker
in anything. But I was always in conversation with that part of myself. And I think non, the people that weren't raised that strictly just kind of get up and live their day. I'm like, really? You get to live your day without guilt? What an idea. What's that like? I don't know. Were you raised in a particularly strict format in Texas or not? Well, I'm going to say yes and no, because that is, to be honest, the state of Texas is the state of Texas. um So I grew up it was like that.
00:10:07
Speaker
Yes, I very much grew up um in the Bible Belt of the US, so I did have that constant influence. But luckily, um my my parents weren't very forceful with their religion. my Very similar to yours, my mom was the Catholic, um but my dad was couldn't care less. Um, yeah, so he's like, Oh, I was just more concerned of cutting, cutting, put food on the table and kind of watch the letterman at night. That was his more like, it's like, let me just focus on that. The the tangible things. And my mom, um, was, uh, was the practicing Catholic, which was quite the to do in my family because, uh, my dad's family were not Catholic. So it came in very much the tension was there. Was it a conservative Protestant thing?
00:10:48
Speaker
but It was um ah more of a Methodist Baptist, depending on the population. So it was, you know, gasps. My dad and was Protestant and his, my mom's father, who was ultra Catholic as well, wouldn't speak to my dad for the first five years they were dating. o you know And and that then my brother got married, he was, I use air quotes Catholic, but he really wasn't. He got in a Protestant church, but because he was she his wife was marrying a Catholic, her grandparents wouldn't come to the wedding.
00:11:26
Speaker
So it's a very interesting thing that even though we think a lot has changed, I'm sure people have broken away from some things, but I think sometimes people replace those things like for me I was, I replaced my look, looking into sort of more Eastern philosophy. I looked at that for a while. And I thought because it was Eastern, it was more exotic. um And I also thought, you know, they didn't have any rules, but then you dive deep and you're like, Yeah, there's just as many just a different format. And it sounded kind of, it sounded like I was being rather adventurous going into Buddhism, I really kind of just went for the I don't know, it was just quiet, for a little just the quiet of sitting was great.
00:12:11
Speaker
meditate yes i know you pretty much dove right into a buddhist style meditation what was it that you loved about that well i think there was a person and i think throughout this uh which is kind of great that i'm talking to you who's from that right like i think human beings are how you interpret spiritual ideas so if a loving parent who was catholic you're probably be like wow it was beautiful or like you know i don't believe what my mom believes but she was such a loving person but with the woman i met as an actress who taught me acting which i was terrible at ah shakespeare and all that stuff she was a buddhist and i think literally i
00:12:57
Speaker
wanted to be one because of her. And I also had found this book that I really liked. And I was very much even though I was not practicing Catholic, I was very much and still for many years, not anymore. I was a person that was always looking for a sign, you know, oh, that's meant to be. So this book fell out of the lab. I was at a bookstore and it fell on my feet. The book was meant to be. And then I met her and she was a Buddhist. I was like, oh my gosh, I was meant to be a Buddhist. But i I classically, what I did in a lot of things, I went for the strictest version of anything. Because I still thought if it didn't hurt, it couldn't work, right? Like it it had to be, unless, if it's like, you're not bleeding out. So I would like sit in meditation and hours and try to like sweat pouring down trying to calm my mind.
00:13:49
Speaker
Now I realize I was probably ADD and I should have just been out running or something. But Mari was a gentle, gentle woman who was the first person that told me I was a good person. If I didn't do anything ever again, I was still a good person. And that was quite liberating for me. She'd go, darling, you're on the path. And I'd say, I don't know what the path is. And I wouldn't ask her. I was like, OK, I'm on the path. But whatever I mess up, she would add no guilt to it. And I think when you kind of come up against people that are so loving like that in sort of in your formative, I think your 20s are very formative, you pushing against your family dynamics, what you grew up with, going into like improv. And then this woman said, you're lovely.
00:14:36
Speaker
And I really was having a hard time at that time with drinking and men and all that. And she'd be like, oh, darling, darling, there was no go to confession and wipe yourself clean, which is really shocking to my way of thinking. It's absolutely erasing what you knew because before growing up in your small town, you didn't know what you didn't know. And so now then you move to the to the big old city of Toronto and you're allowed to think different or you realize that you're allowed to think different.
00:15:08
Speaker
you're allowed to make mistakes and you don't have the oh you can do anything and then wipe it away because you go in this little closet with the curtain and they say oh it's fine just say say this prayer and say this prayer and you're fine but ending in the real world it's like no tomorrow's very much like today except you know with better with the new opportunities and stuff like that and so you got to try new things and be allowed to think new things And I think that, um and it took years of you know therapy and lots of other ideas coming in before you really let go of that, dare I say, like the original sin idea, like that you're bad and that you have to do, you know you have to audition for God.
Integrating Spirituality into Life
00:15:49
Speaker
um it it it you know Every year, I only went to community college and every year in August, I used to think I should go back and get my degree and I never wanted to but I always thought and it's the same with being a Catholic I'd be like well you've had your fun with the Buddhism but maybe you should get serious and um and I could never fit myself back into that but I said I talked to people who didn't get raised that way. And they don't mean maybe they do that in a different way. Maybe they do that through fitness, or they do that through, you know, really strict practices, like, you know, intermittent fasting. No, I'm just kidding. Oh, you have to be, you have to be guilty, you have to pay for those two days of hate or something. There's just, you got to earn it everything in life you got to earn. And I think as people, like we really, we, I do think we need some kind of boundaries around us I think that's, otherwise it's, it's chaos but um
00:16:51
Speaker
Yeah, I've had a lot of loving people. I think if the book is anything, it's about all the people I met along the way that pieced me back together in a loving way. And through them, if there is, you know, there's a friend of mine who says, God has skin. And if you told me to go away and pray, I would be in a cave or I'd be one of those women in the attic in Victorian novels where they're like, what's that noise in the attic? It's like, oh, it's Aunt Deb. We don't let her come down. She's not done praying yet. Yeah, the connections that I made and the more connections I think I make, the more I think we find whatever that is we're looking for. you know in We think it's divinity, but I think it's through the connections with the other that we and our mistakes that we become whole, if you will.
00:17:42
Speaker
So you emerged. ah So you came to I just just have this image of you came to Toronto with ah just of a ratty blanket wrapped around your shoulders as this Catholic refugee. And you and you know, and they just opened the doors to you showing the world of you you can do and believe literally anything you want. And then you get to discover this and discover that. And what um what part about um I guess ah Buddhism just didn't work for you? Well, first off, I think just to be clear, I was ah a complete rebel in high school and a a complete, if you told me not to cross the street, I would cross it just to prove you wrong.
00:18:24
Speaker
and went out in marketing. But I always kind of went back to the church to to figure out if I, because I think I always felt bad. The Buddhism thing, it took a lot of years. I don't think I was considered like, I liked the philosophies of it. I liked the that you didn't have to believe in a deity. um But there were times where I'm like, what am I doing? Like, I'm at the Korean Buddhist temple on Vaughan Road in Toronto, chanting in Korean.
00:19:01
Speaker
yeah so Like I've replaced Latin for Korean and there were moments like that, but I liked that I could Again, I think if you were raised Buddhist, you might have thought it was really strict. I just didn't I just felt free that I could think what I want. And but a few years ago, actually, when the book starts, my brother is dying. And I came back to Toronto, i'd I'd left after my initial year for 20 years. And like I went back to the Buddhist temple thinking, oh, I'm going to take refuge again in that. And then I realized, oh, I didn't need it anymore. i I had integrated the parts of it that I really valued. So I wouldn't say it didn't work. It's just, I think in the last, I'm 67, probably the last 10 years, I don't need a temple, a church.
00:19:50
Speaker
It's integrated in what philosophies and I'm glad I got such a good education and all of that between Sufism and just you know everything. I just found out there was so much similarity and all spiritual practices. And it had allowed you to find within yourself that that piece that, you know, motivation for life that, you know, a little bit more of a purpose. I think so. I mean, I think what it is is I don't, I mean, I have bad days like anyone does, but I think I don't have that complete, the bottom of falling out and me not knowing what to do. um have a I have a lot of so like simple practices that I walk every day. I write every day. I do a lot of gratitude.
00:20:34
Speaker
I connect with people that I help and they help me and I've got a huge network of people. So I think that's how I keep well. And I'm a voracious weaver. I mean, I read like a three or four books all the time, but they're not self-help books like they used to. I kind of got rid of all those about 10 years ago. Yeah, in your book you said you just pretty much read a library's worth of self-help books. Self-help books are kind of foreign to me, but my wife has a number of them as well. What what did you get out of ah the self-help books? Or what did you eventually start saying like, all right, is this plus or minus the the ones that I've read previous, you know? Well, I think there was and I think it is always sometimes you get this book and you you like one idea, you're like one sentence or you see the podcast, you see the YouTube video and then you go, I got to buy the book. And then, you know, like there's a this is a really old joke. But when I was growing up, there was Reader's Digest and it used to be a joke. The Reader's Digest.
00:21:33
Speaker
Condensed version of the Bible is don't.
00:21:39
Speaker
And I think that's with self-help. It's like it always ends with you better love yourself. Like you could just go to the last page. But there's people that I really you know I relate to. I really like. There's angles I like to take. I should say maybe I don't look to them. I kind of look to them as a guide rather than an answer. um Before I read them, like i there must be a piece of my puzzle missing, and now if I do pick one up, I'll like i'll look at a podcast and enjoy it for a couple of times.
00:22:11
Speaker
but You know, but I also studied a lot. Like I did Wayne Dyer, Marianne Williamson. What's his face? Tony Robbins. Tony Robbins, though, drove me nuts at a certain point because it was so masculine. He's aggressive. It's an aggressive self. Aggressive. It's totally aggressive. But still, I got a lot out of him. Same with Wayne Dyer, those guys. But I didn't when I. I feel like I've got all the elements that I liked from those books in me. And then some new writers, people, what's her name that everyone loves? The big magic. Gosh.
00:22:50
Speaker
Anyway, she's a wonderful writer. I don't necessarily need to read her book, but when people, Brene Brown's one of them. I love her, but I don't need to go buy her books now. so elizabeth Elizabeth Gilbert, was that her name? metric overt all those I love those women and I'd like a podcast on them. I guess I'm just saying it's more the way I look at them more as like their guideposts or I enjoy listening to a podcast. So that it's not like like every now and then you get a fortune cookie that has something that's you know worth remembering rather than like almost a throwaway one or it's like every now and you get a good nugget of like oh that's a good way of thinking they can just put those clips from their book in a fortune cookies because the fortune cookies really are lame
00:23:31
Speaker
But you go, it's back in the day you believed them, right? You believe, you'd be like, oh, well, I knew there was a ah visitor coming. I feel like back in the day there were fortunes. Now it's just like, here's some tidbits of advice. Yeah, they're all typed up with a number on them. so you'll don't yeah no no i But again, the other part that's interesting and you know I think is interesting is it's also I'm a person of my time where people today have access to a lot of ideas in a way that I never did. So it was revolutionary for me to think these things, or at least I thought i i it was.
00:24:08
Speaker
And yet um today, although I do think there's what you just said about even Texas, it's like there's a lot of conservative things that people haven't opened up to good ideas. And it's kind of weird because you think there's so much out there that you could just be exposed to that'd be so cool for you. and i think I think it also comes with um sometimes of when it comes to conservative mindsets, it's that is part of your community. That is part of your ideas that were it's you don't have to think of new things it's comforting because it's in your mind nothing should change you just keep it the same and you don't have to explore outside of your um your community or your mental hurdles or anything it's comforting inside of the small bullpen that you've created in your but or your community has created for you
00:25:00
Speaker
I mean I I tour a lot to really ultra conservative states in the United States and Canada. Find them really nice people. Oh yeah the some of the best people you'll meet. Yes and it's like also maybe there's also a sense of privacy that you go maybe you don't have to tell everybody what you thought about something. Today we tend to think we have to explain ourselves you know. ah But yeah and it's also I think I just go back to my mom I think my mom used her religion to keep her comforted and safe and the structures of it really kept her safe. I, you know, burnt that whole idea down, but I still need the structures to keep me safe. You know, everybody has a thing. And I think for some people to question what they grew up with,
00:25:52
Speaker
It's scary because you're afraid like if you put the car up on the hoist or you're going to get it back together again. And I really understand why it's hard to look at this stuff. Well, I mean, it's opening up the let's see the gated community of your brain can be scary. I mean, you decided you couldn't wait. You kicked that thing down and were like grasping at whatever is outside of the that. yeah I think I had a hunger for that because I was I could not fit in it. I think it comes out of a desperation. You don't You don't kick the thing down just because you're having a good day. You do it because you need to in order to survive. you Because you're growing and the previous hurdles aren't enough for you anymore. And also until I was 29, I drank and did a lot of really negative things because I didn't know how to align. I think I always thought I was good or I was bad. And then at 29, when I got sober and I rebuilt that part of myself,
00:26:42
Speaker
um I realized there wasn't a good and bad part. They they weren't at war with each other. There's different parts. Different parts. There's a hundred parts now instead of just good and bad, but it's more new. right Oh, very much so. So speaking speaking of if we may in your twenties, which ah which is the better musician to date? so Is it a drummer, a guitarist, as a keyboardist? What would be a better musician?
Motivation Behind Writing 'Window Shopping for God'
00:27:06
Speaker
I had like one drummer for four years. okay ah But that was like, yeah, no, no. It was funny because when you're in your 20s, you make these decisions based on absolutely nothing. Someone said,
00:27:20
Speaker
He's a drummer for Alice Cooper. I didn't even like Alice Cooper necessarily. I just said, well, that's a good guy. And, you know, um I laugh because today you just have so many things you need to be in place as you get older. Oh, like he chewed his food wrong. Back then, you literally the biggest red flags and you were like, yeah, but he's cute. You know, yeah, it's fine. I can fix him. Yeah. okay So do you feel like your spiritual journey has finished? Do you feel like you're at a good place with that? And is that why I decided to to write the book? Or did you read the book, Eat, Pray, Love, and became insanely jealous and thought you could do it better? Oh, this feels like Deborah Kim, it's Eat, Pray, Love, but I would title it Drink, Pray, Hate. And it was. No, I didn't read that book. Well, I think I saw the movie. Maybe I did. I can't remember. No fun movie, too. Yeah.
00:28:11
Speaker
Um, no, I, I had written a lot of these essays and I had written a lot about because the book starts off with my brother who was ill. I think I won't go the whole arc of that. That's throughout the book. But by the time the book ends, I think I realized that I don't I just felt there was a whole hunk of I didn't need to earn my right to be human. who by the end of the book. I realized I did show up. I was a good person. I'd had a lot of things in my life happen that were negative that I'd overcome. And by the end of the book, I realized, I don't know, I just, it I, I, I certainly am curious. I read voraciously, but I don't come from a place of there's a, like I said before, a place missing in me. Well, that's good. Not no, at least not anymore.
00:29:08
Speaker
No, not anymore for the last 10 years. and There's like aging and, you know, during COVID, I think, yeah, I'm writing another book on that because that really challenged the way you think in life. I mean, it was very difficult. I do feel like the pandemic was kind of shuffled off in the last couple of years where it's like, ah what we're worried about two or three years prior. We were all in this. And then everyone said, but anyway, moving on back to work. Yeah, but it's almost like you come back from Vietnam or something and you're like, oh, no, everybody's acting like it's normal, but you kind of wonder, you know, for for a lot of families in mind in particular and other families, I know there were casualties mentally, like mental casualties for people that didn't, you know, really shifted their view politically, shifted their view spiritually. And it's something that I don't,
00:30:02
Speaker
Like I said, everybody came out weirder than they went in. Oh yeah. But, but I might be one of them because I kept thinking it was them that was weird, but now it's actually me. Oh, it's always the, anytime you think someone else is weird, do you know, it's you. 50 people are weird. I'm like, Oh, like, but I'm the normal one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you became obsessed with things. And, um, yeah, no, I think I was certainly learning from that. So just learning, you know, like, I think we really got the whole world in our eye, like the whole world was in our head sort of during COVID, that we we couldn't look away, that really challenged what I believed in.
00:30:42
Speaker
And I love that that that's basically a lot of times the message throughout the book. And what you've discovered during your spiritual journey is your community, the people around you, the people that affect you and you can affect them, that is more important. That's where the real your real life motivation can come from. Yeah, and it's so weird. I don't know how this happens. Some people would say this was synchronicity or coincidence of God or whatever. But it was like when you have a question that's just burning through you. Like my brother had a brain tumor.
00:31:16
Speaker
I cannot tell you the number of people who came up to me on the street. I wasn't walking around with a sign that said, I have a brother that has a brain tumor, but they would say things to me. And I don't know if I was looking for a message, but they this one time this woman just running down the alleyway crying and I was standing there and I go, are you okay? She goes, I had an accident and I had a big ah concussion and and I bumped my head and I'm afraid it's coming back and I was like what a weird thing I just found out my brother had a brain tumor and I said that must scare you and we had this wonderful conversation. I looked back in those times during that time when he was ill and there were so many odd little messages from people and I was like is that because you're more open to hearing them?
00:32:05
Speaker
or you add meaning to them, I don't know. But they always happen when I seem to need it. And throughout the book, there are people that I meet where I'm looking for an answer one way, and then some goofball comes along, and I get it from some strange situation. And just, it's not like you get the whole answer, but you get a little peace for that day. I mean, can we just say one of my favorite characters in the book is Preacher Man. Well, Preacher Man is a real character. Oh, we oh he yes he is. yeah and there were several of those guys like I had three or four of them there were different ones in the bigger versions but I decided to just keep it on him but yeah no he was that guy and I was like am I reading into this or is he saying this but there's a chapter called repent and I'm looking for something and he you know has repent written on his hand and you're just like
00:33:00
Speaker
And again, I don't know what that is. I do see, at least in my own life, that when I've been the most vulnerable or most broken, people have an opportunity to approach you that that they don't when you're confident and on your way to somewhere. Like if I had a great day, I wouldn't look at preacher man and go, I'm going to get to know what he's thinking. I'd be like, oh, for the love of heaven, he's still yelling. But I was looking for meaning. And I like those moments. I find those moments very magical.
00:33:32
Speaker
ah's whereas It's almost where it is subconsciously that your brain has a problem and it's open to solutions and that radar is just spinning around and you happen to pick up on it from different people. We don't know. We don't know. It's a mystery. But I do think it happens. But I also think it's a perspective. Like I lived my life for years, like nothing works out for me. Like by negative, like really negative. But retraining my brain is like, oh, I got a little piece of the puzzle. And I said, people say to me sometimes, well, you get all these weird things happen to you. And I go, but as a writer, I write everything down and I take notes as a comedian, like, because I perform all over the place. And I said, so things that people maybe walk by, I just take notes. Like, I'll give you one that's really funny. The other day, I live in the beaches. It's the beach. list There's not many beaches. There's only one beach. There's still one.
00:34:25
Speaker
just And um they, this woman had a big picnic thing and she's with her mother. She's about 40. And she looks at the beach with all this. And she goes, nobody told me there was going to be sand.
00:34:40
Speaker
Just provide me with these great one liners. And her mother said, Oh, Helen, what we should we have done vacuumed it for you. And ah so I think it's, you know, actors, writers, performers, artists take notes all the time are always on that high alert to take notes. So part of it's that, too, I think. I also I mean, I myself being an actor, I want to say I'm a writer, but I couldn't tell you I've i've put word to paper in ages. But, you know, of being being an actor and and being a a theater performer and all that, you do pick up on those subtleties that happen in the world. And you wonder, this probably happens to everyone. Like everyone says like, oh, Debra, just the craziest things happen to you. It happens to everyone. But maybe they're not picking up on it. They're not looking forward it or they're not aware that it's there when it when they sense it.
00:35:35
Speaker
I think it's that, I think it's very much, I mean, a scientist could prove this one way or the other, but I like the mystery of it. I also think if you're an actor and you're in a play about ah guys that fix tires, the next 10 days, all you're gonna see is guys fixing tires. and it's like when you're pregnant you just see pregnant people and I bought a car last week and all I see I never saw a red car now I see them all and I you know maybe it's we just that's where we put our focus but a performer in particular is to study the human condition and if you are what I really like is
00:36:12
Speaker
I tried to write this book with a sense of compassion for all of that because I do find that stuff fascinating. I like I do find the wackiest people fascinating. You know, just it it just fascinates me. So I think I attract it a lot. And I wonder that because my wife and I are on the same foot of, let's just say the other people in our society tend to gravitate towards us. And is it something we're broadcasting or is it something that we pick up? Is that we look at, you know, maybe the people that other people would walk by and you see them and nobody else has seen them. And that's why they gravitate towards you. Because like, you can see me for who I am, you know, and they come gravitating towards you. Do you feel like you pick up on that? I think it is that. Yeah.
00:36:58
Speaker
But it's also what you value. Like I go down to, do you live in Toronto? I used to, we used to live in an Etobicoke, but then we moved down to Brantford. okay well there's Parkdale and I went to my book launch there was a coffee shop I was having the book lunch and a woman came out of nowhere the next thing you know I give her a blanket I hug her her name's Beth Ann um I give her I give her eight dollars she gives me two back because she doesn't want eight six is enough is a change thing but she did and she's like really stressed out
00:37:31
Speaker
But I have, I'm not going to invite her home for dinner, but I have compassion for the oddball, the odd duck, the one in suffering. My friends say they don't like walking with me because they said, I don't know why you do it. It's unsafe. And I go, well, I wouldn't go home with them. I'm just if it's safe, I do something. But it's not because it comes from it doesn't come from I'm going to be a good person. But I do find that person interesting. I also find, like, I don't value Like, if if someone's confident walking by with the world by the tail, I'm not looking at them. You know, and yeah where somebody else might go, I want to know that person because they got it going on. With their head held high, you know. Yeah, they don't need my help. and i but They're good on their own. But I also have come to the edge of things in my life, the edge of mental health, the edge of drinking. So I relate to that group. And I also relate that it's very dangerous. like
00:38:30
Speaker
when someone's out to lunch drinking or drugs, you're not going to have a conversation. But yeah, and yeah, it's also I think I inherited some of this from my dad, he was a very social person. And literally everybody that came to his funeral were like, who are these people? Well, your dad fixed my toilet back in you know, November. And you know, he just knew everybody.
Advice on Spiritual Freedom and Exploration
00:38:54
Speaker
And I know, yeah I'm like that my family's a lot like You just pick up on that. It's like an nice a nice social butterfly, easy to talk to. Yeah, yeah, I like it. And then, you know, but I mean, let me just, I don't suffer fools gladly. Like, well you know, there's there's no shortage of them. and they wait Well, so. um
00:39:15
Speaker
If you were, let's just say if somebody was was wanting to go on their own spiritual journey, if they're wanting to explore outside of what they were raised in and and and start looking at other religions or alternative thinking, what did what would you say is a good ah but a good way to do it? Because I mean, this whole book is just you stumbling along, not knowing how to do it. But now that you're on the back nine of ah figuring like, okay, I could have done that better, could have gone to that connection better, what what what advice would you give to someone? Well, don't spend a ton of money on it because definitely I think when you want something, you'll think that if I I have a story in the book that was I was of getting a divorce. I had dated somebody after 20 years of marriage. It was awful. And I was falling apart and I wanted to go to California.
00:40:04
Speaker
to get, take a course. I was desperate just to not hurt. And I was going to sign up for a course called, it was a Buddhist course because I thought I'll go back to Buddhism. Why not, right? It's good to see you, Ben. And it was called, There's Nothing Wrong With You. And I i called my friend Rachel and I said, I want to take this course called, there's nothing wrong with you. And she said, how much is it? And I said, well, it's a thousand bucks, but then there's airfare. And, you know, and she said, so you're going to spend like two grand to find out there's nothing wrong with you. I will tell you for free.
00:40:38
Speaker
So that's what I would say is research and also realize there's nothing wrong with you, even though you read these books, that you'll find a couple of good things. but you'll It's like an all-you-can-eat buffet. You'll find a couple things there. You'll find a couple things there. I also think I would never I am someone on the cdc interviewed me and they said do you think it was cult like and I go you couldn't I would be the last person on earth that would win I will not ever join anything that wants me so to me if you have to follow a teacher or they say their method is the only way run right because just because you're looking
00:41:23
Speaker
I just kind of look at, is there a lot of freedom to explore new ideas rather than sign on the dotted line? You know, um i i was I went to the Buddhist temples for a line years and then someone said, would you like to be I don't know. not and and I don't know what the word was. It was a different word. And I went, No, I don't want to become anything in this. Like, to me, or I could I want to wear that loosely. So, and so just research if if it matches, if everybody's sitting there starving and have been following something for 10 years, and they're still not getting better, then I'd say run, just run.
00:42:00
Speaker
Go away. Try something new. Yeah, yeah. A therapist that won't, you know, that never lets you leave or you can never get well enough to leave. There's a lot of that going on, right? You know, I've got a, you kind of go, well, at a certain point, I think you should outgrow your therapist. Or you should be able to say, I don't want to do this anymore. and iser Back in the six months when I have more money or whatever. Yeah, exactly. I mean, we save up some more money, then get some more help. um But do you also see it um mentally? what what's ah what did What did you find was the hurdle to get over, to say, it's okay to think this way. It's okay to not do this one ritual that you would always do. like like What um would you have any any any advice for that?
00:42:46
Speaker
Because I know a lot of times it's ritual and routine is what keeps everybody in the same thing. What would you say is that mental hurdle of saying like, maybe you start with your left foot instead of your right foot. Yeah, it's a hard foot, isn't it? You have to think what's comfortable. Yeah, that's a really good one. I don't know, medication. It's a little OCD.
00:43:09
Speaker
No, I think when you come out of, like a lot of people come out of abuse, and so a ritual or routine gets them safe enough that they can lock them. So I don't, and you know, ah Mari the Buddhist said to me, use whatever works until it doesn't. And so I would say, well, sometimes I say the rosary when I'm meditating. And she said, let's let yourself say it. And she said, you know, I've been a Buddhist for 40 years. And I still say, as I lay me down to sleep, I pray to God nice, because I don't really believe in God, but I say it. I think, I think as long as you can wear it loosely, there comes a place where you'll have to let go of some of that. Don't you think there's a place where if you if you used ritual or routine, you'll have to let it go a little bit if you get into a relationship where you have children, you know, can become it goes from being an assistant thing to a crutch.
00:44:04
Speaker
Yeah. ah and And so speaking of that, if I may if i may touch upon your addiction years, um did you find that to be a part of you or a symptom of you breaking down your walls and then exploring new things or wanting to destroy your old, build a new... um I don't know if I knew anything other than It hurts so much to be in my head. The thoughts and depression I had at 15, 16, I picked up alcohol and it solved all the problems for 13 years. And when I say solved them, I fell down, got drunk and made out with a boy, but that solved it until it didn't. And I tried to come back and use religion to counter that. And when I got sober, I got taught that I'm not a bad person that has to overcome that.
00:44:55
Speaker
but more just accept that I, you know, I just accepted that I come from a long line of alcoholics and that runs in families and um and that I needed help to put down booze and and there was a method of which I got sober that I really it valued. The one thing that helped me the best is that you know, I could do something for one day. At the beginning, it was just I could stop drinking for one day, or if I had to do a new routine, I could do that for one day. And now I'm 37, almost 38 years sober. So that's more more like three times what I drank three times the time I drank. I use one day as a real comfort like oh, I only have to do one day or like
00:45:43
Speaker
And that but not in a negative way. Like, oh, I get to talk to Jared at noon and I really want to enjoy that. You know, so I didn't really answer your question. I do think what people need to do to stay safe is an interesting question. It could be a whole topic, couldn't it? Yeah, it could be. could That could be the next book. or you for like a podcast, because I think, you know, what is your organization really based on?
Humanist Canada's Philosophy
00:46:05
Speaker
I would say Humanist Canada is, I put it simply based around the idea of humans caring about humans with no, yeah yeah, with no reward or anything. It's, it believes in people, in your community, those around you, using science, rationale, arts, creativity, like it's been much, it's, it's a being obsessed with humans.
00:46:29
Speaker
I am obsessed with humans. Without any worry about a celestial reward or anything, whether there is something out there or not doesn't matter. What can we tangibly do and care about? It's people. i you get and Can we do something for them? If not, can we get information out there? That's that's what a lot of a humanist candidate is primarily about. I agree. That is, if I could call it window shopping for humans, I would have, but you know, nobody. i mean You can still add us in, you know, we can just say, let's just pick a page and just say like, oh yeah, we'll just add a carrot and then humanism in there. yeah But it is humanism because I used to say, if somebody gave me the book of how I could be happy,
00:47:07
Speaker
and said, go away and read it and pray or worship or read it and meditate. I wouldn't have understood anything. It's through humans interpreting it for me. So I get to go back to, well, what would you do if you had a routine and you wanted to break it is I would go for people that meet you with kindness. Because ah an ounce of kindness, like I have met the most rigid thinking people
00:47:35
Speaker
I just went down south and you just go, wow, wow, okay. yeah I don't, I really don't think it's my job to judge that because I try to just meet them with kindness. And sometimes I just have to like bite the inside of my mouth because it's like my opinion isn't really that important. but it it is It is allowing that someone would allow you to make mistakes, allow you to completely embrace your humanity. Because what humanism to me is that we're not these perfect beings and we're not to God's order. I think that's what the self-help and spirituality often sells as kind of a transcendence. Whatever the opposite of transcendence is, is what I want.
00:48:19
Speaker
you know like it's like what what puts you what grounds you more what brings you right down to earth you know yeah like i think if you can love yourself when you suck it's like oh yeah yes if you could forgive yourself for sucking yeah or like wow did i ever do what wow i told the biggest lie there that isn't true um But just like, wow. um And the more I've done that, ironically, which is kind of ironic, it's the opposite to what you think spirituality is going to be is like, I'll just be filing my nails and directing traffic on a cloud.
00:48:55
Speaker
you You poor people that turn left, it's more like, I don't know. I have no idea what to do here. I'm sorry you're going through that. um I'm really angry right now, and I'm going to have to remove myself from the situation because I'm i'm i'm scary. you know like The more I've been able to own my own humanity, the more people come to me, which is so ironic because what I wanted was popularity but spiritual. Hello. yeah Yeah. And ironically, when you're really human, people come to you. Yeah. and it's um So basically, it's looking to yourself, cleaning off your own mirror, and then people realize i can see you shine more because you realize you're you're aware of your own mistakes and your own habits and how to clean them up.
00:49:41
Speaker
Well, it was funny because last week I write a gratitude list and then I have like a list of things that are bugging me because they pick at me and I don't want to get them going. But anyway, there's three people that were irking me and I was like, I hate this person. They bug me. They don't like me. And then I always have this little rule. like It's a little thing in my head. I'm like, you're allowed to hate one person. maybe two but when it gets to three it's you like what is going on and generally I'm tired like I'm just tired because I just moved or I just got to shut my mouth and try to come back to myself I think that's the part of this human thing is coming back to ourselves I'm just allowing ourselves to be completely scared or lost or frightened about the future or whatever it is I think when we try to override it
00:50:34
Speaker
it gets us into a lot of trouble. yeah When you try to fight your natural who you are or instincts or urges or or it's also a good to to recognize whenever it's like, um these factors have led me to be grumpy right now. I probably shouldn't be talking to people. I probably shouldn't answer this email right now. Let me take five. and let me And when I was trying to be spiritual air quotes, I would override that and say, well, a spiritual person wouldn't get tired. And then I'd be crazy in two weeks and I'd be like, I'm going to kill everybody. like So it's like, take care of yourself. But the one other thing that I would like to say before, I know we have to probably close a certain point, but it's service is a big thing. And whether you call that helping your community,
00:51:18
Speaker
I've gone through periods where I didn't have a lot of money or I didn't have a lot of certainty about my career. I couldn't get arrested as a performer or whatever. And I got to tell you, the spirituality goes out the window as the bank account goes down. I'm like, poverty. That's not good for me. Thank you. Yeah. Forget eternal damnation. I have bill damnation right now. Yes. yeah But getting out of yourself and helping somebody is really good for your mental health. like it's And I think that there's no act that's too small. And I remember in the book I talk about, my house wouldn't sell, I had divorced, I didn't have a lot of cash. And I remember calling my friend Jim and he'd say, Deborah, I can't stand that you keep talking about, like you gotta talk about something else. So I volunteered at a soup kitchen and I'm like,
00:52:11
Speaker
I didn't want to volunteer at a soup kitchen got to be honest, I'd rather a little but money to I didn't want to go, but it got me out of myself to the point that I actually liked going, because I was not thinking about me. And when A lot of people come to me and talk to me. I attract a lot of people that want to talk about stuff. And I'll give them something to do to help me. It's my little trick. I'll say, you know, I don't know if you'd be able to help me this, but I got to run my lines. And I don't need them to run my lines. I said, I'm sure this is too busy for you right now. And they're like, no, no, I'd love to. I can't stay.
00:52:50
Speaker
it It changes the energy, just connecting to a person. So it's not always a big talk, but sometimes it's just, could you help me cut my lawn or would you mind dropping this thing off for me? I always get people to help at a level they'll feel better about themselves. An easier, low threshold to be able to to do something. Yeah, because I think a lot of times people like me anyway get stuck in our heads. Oh yeah, inside your head is the worst place to be sometimes. Yeah, yeah. I i know that now um my wife and I have, you know, I mean, ever since the pandemic going, you know, it's just everything is just terrible and awful. And they were like, what can we do about it? I mean, obviously 99% of everything on the news, there's nothing you can actually do about it, but it's good to know about it, but it's nothing you can do about it, but what can you tangibly do? And so we just got in the habit of just walking around our neighborhood and then we'll pick up trash.
00:53:43
Speaker
like the That's For one, you're walking and that's exercise, and that's always good. You need that. Walking is the left and right brain if you want science. Walking and left and right brain. I walk for a long time. Walking changes the brain. That changes the brain and and helping in a way that you can help changes the brain. But I really think when you focus 80% of your day on the negative stuff, watching the news, scrolling, checking, there's no way you could feel good. And to me, I grew up in a time where you only watch the news once a day.
00:54:16
Speaker
and Because it came out once a day. Yeah, but you didn't care for 23 and a half hours. You did not care about the news. And I said, so when you feed yourself all that terror, especially if a trigger news story comes up where you're like, this one's the real deal. And you go, but I can still care about that for half an hour. But I can't care about it for 23 and a half hours because it completely debilitates me. Oh, yes. And COVID was a great example of that. I, I i mean don't know if you guys do this, but I need to sort out my time some days when especially in COVID those long days. Oh, yeah, to structure yourself. or Yeah, 100% structure is your best friend. And I would literally go
00:55:01
Speaker
Well, I'm going to walk, but I got up too early. It's like now only seven o'clock. And I'd be like, I'm not walking until nine because otherwise I'll have to have lunch at 10. Longest day, one time a glass fell on the floor in the kitchen. And I had to like a three room apartment. And I was like, I won't pick up that glass to later. but like i'm not goingnna get out of that glass why don' unless or out The good stuff but truly but structure of your brain during COVID was a really interesting one. How time just at times sprawled out there for hours and then other times you felt pressure doing nothing.
00:55:40
Speaker
And you felt guilt for doing nothing, and you know, like what can you tangibly do? ants You're just like, I'm not wearing pants. I don't need to wear pants. I wear my pajamas. i but like When I stopped wearing pants and just pajama bottoms, I'm like, this is ah is a stab date. But at the same time, a little liberating. Oh, it was. And it was adams also, I looked good here. And ah I went to, my mom died during that time, and I i went to therapy. and online I went to a the therapist for grief and she had this beautiful little head and then one day I walked in and she was making her bed on the zoom and she went oh Debra you let yourself in know I was like I don't want myself in this was zoom I click the link and I'm in and then she walked towards me and her little tiny head didn't match her body
00:56:34
Speaker
It was like she had a little Barbie head with like a Teletubby body. And I was like, I can't body shame. And I was like all upset with that. I was like, you have catfished me with this tiny head. And then I was like, I got doing like this to see if people were thinking maybe I was that was like two days of during COVID. So beautiful, beautiful professional head, but then like the body of a Dr. Seuss character. Yeah, but you were going like, why didn't you just put your whole like thing together? Because now I don't know who I've been speaking to. Yeah, it was weird like that. It it it like it was a whole surreal life that. Yeah, that I feel like none of us have truly unpacked yet there. they We haven't really begun doing that yet. We're now we've gone from we were in it to now, hey, we're not in that anymore. But now that we're not in that, maybe we should go back and take a look at what what we were doing getting
00:57:32
Speaker
Well, and also how quickly, like we all started out like, hey, we're all in this together to just everything falling apart. yeah And i know I think we made past historical moments like World War II, the depression, we made those very noble when maybe those people were no less noble than we, but we just didn't know about them all. Like, you know, like I don't think people in World War II are going, let's pull it together. Like some of them, if they'd had a social media account would have been complained.
00:58:04
Speaker
Yeah, there would have been some gripes that would have been like, really? I got to give you my old pots for metal. Come on. Yeah, like, yeah, I'm not doing that. Like, I'm eating sugar every day, so you're not rashing. I'm not going to ration. Come on. Yeah. Anyway. OK, well, on that note, Debra, I guess we should probably weigh in down. Let me talk about this book, Window Shopping for God. This, I mean, I'm not, like I said, I'm not a self-help book reader. This gave me almost David Sedaris vibes. Like, this was wonderful. Well, that's what I wanted. That's the and you did it. Okay, this the chapters are short and punchy. I'm a slow reader. You're a voracious reader. I'm a slow reader this you were um Let's just say you like you and me were in bed together many nights because that's when I do a lot of my reading You were on my bedside table and I for for a number of nights for weeks It was you and me and I was reading through this and I loved every bit of it at no point was I like, okay Deborah quit the yuck and you know, like I it was every story and Every chapter was written like there was going to be a punch line at the end and I don't want to set it up for people You know or too much over a salad, but I definitely every chapter was enjoyable or it like and i wanted them to Stand alone. It's no self-help. I didn't want to give advice at all because I don't have any So just comedically out or or dramatically that the ending would make you want to go to the next chapter
00:59:28
Speaker
and it was a very lovely ending. the way it and i i I literally finished it on the deck of my friend's parents' cottage and I just closed the book and I just looked at the forest for a second just ah just to really absorb it. It was wonderfully nice. That's what people said. Quick question though, because this is going to bother me if I don't ask this. um Your friend David, he made a horrible movie. Where can we find this horrible movie? my Well, that was my husband. I'm sorry, it was your husband. Okay, yes. um Well, my ex-husband. What's it called? Dixie Lane's. Dixie Lane's. Yeah. what it was um It was so bad. He knows it's bad, and I can say this. it was oh You know who it was? It was these weird people like um
01:00:21
Speaker
It was made in 1998. It's got like two stars. And I think that's generous. Hoyt, Axton, Karen Black, Art Fingal. And it was a movie that were a lot of drugs, I think it might've been done.
01:00:38
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I definitely get you get that vibe. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. No, no. It was just funny because that's how shallow I was. I was like, I don't know if I could fall in love with somebody who that made a movie like this. but he you know We're very good friends, by the way. We got divorced 20 years ago and we're very good friends. Well, that's the best thing for your friendship, you know? Yeah, it is. Oh, that's wonderful. You know what? Thank you very much. Deborah Kimmett, where can people find you? I'm at Kimmett, K-I-M-M-E-T-T dot C-A, and I'll have my book tour dates. and And you can also find all the places to buy the book if you want. And you have a, um do you have a podcast, I believe I saw?
01:01:19
Speaker
Yes, I have a but podcast called Downward Facing Broad. It's about women, older women, how they got knocked down and got up again. And it's kind of comedians, politicians, just ordinary women, and really interesting stories. So we have done six episodes, and we're going to do another six probably in the fall. wanna to end your We can find you at Deborah Kimmett on Instagram as well. um This has been an absolute pleasure on my end. I don't want to speak for you, but I've absolutely enjoyed talking to you, Deborah.
01:01:50
Speaker
Thanks. It's wonderful. any Any parting words for us? No, I don't. I just totally blanked out. I think I need my lunch. Oh, yeah, no. Thank you for having me. It was an absolute pleasure. Thank you for for listening to us. um And I guess i and now I know this is the part of the podcast where I turned it to myself as I closed out the podcast. so On that note, for you personally, Debba, thank you very much for for chatting with us. It was wonderful hearing from you. And i'd love I can't wait to see you around. I can't wait to listen for you on the debaters. I stumbled across the debaters not long ago. Actually, that was like back in 2018. I stumbled upon this program. I was like, this sounds delightful. And you've done a number of episodes of that. I've been on there for 18 years. 18 years. yes oh Now, do you get to choose which side of and of a topic you want, or are they just going to throw it at you?
01:02:46
Speaker
sometimes like sometimes I'll pitch an idea that I want to talk about but generally I don't care which side I'm on I like I like taking a side that I don't believe in ah absolutely well you know what um thank you very much and um I guess I'll let you enjoy your day okay
01:03:08
Speaker
Thank you for listening to The Voice of Canadian Humanism. We would like to especially thank our members and donors who make our work possible. If you feel that this is the type of programming that belongs in the public conversation, please visit us at HumanistCanada.ca and become a member and or donate. You can also like and subscribe to us on social media at Humanist Canada. We'll see you next time.