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Episode 113: Spearfishing, Pilates & WA Trail Running with Ben
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This week on Peak Pursuits, Vlad and Jess are joined by WA trail runner Ben for a big episode covering training updates, national champs news, European racing, and what is happening in the West.
We chat through AUTRA’s announcement of the EOI for the 2027 National Championships, with trail, long course, mountain running and 100-mile racing all potentially coming together for the first time in one all-distance event. We also unpack the European Off-Road Running Championships in Slovenia, including wins from Frédéric Tranchand, Judith Wyder, Hanna Gröber and Jan Torrella.
Ben gives us a look into the WA trail scene: the rising stars, must-do events, best training spots and what the broader trail running community might be missing from the West.
We also cover recent results from Biwako Valley Skyrun, Run Forrest, Red Hill Ramble, Unbreakable, Cape2Cape and more, plus a look ahead to upcoming races around the country.
In our Patreon-only show, Ben answers a listener question from Jeremy Rankin on how to approach steep fire trail climbs on race day, when hiking becomes more efficient, and how mid-packers can learn to make those decisions in training and racing.
***Don’t forget, use code PPP at https://bix-hydration.myshopify.com/en-au for 20% off Bix products, exclusive to PPP listeners!***
Thanks for tuning in to Peak Pursuits! Connect with us on Instagram @peakpursuits.pod to share your thoughts, questions, and your own trail stories. Until next time, keep hitting the trails and chasing those peak pursuits!
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):https://uppbeat.io/t/mood-maze/trendsetter License code: K08PMQ3RATCE215R
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:10
Speaker
Hey welcome to episode 113 of the Peak Pursuits podcast. I'm Jess Jason and today I'm joined by regular host Vlad Ixl. How are you, Vlad?
00:00:24
Speaker
Yeah, doing well. Just finished my morning run, so I'm feeling good. Nice,
Ben's Trail Running Journey Begins
00:00:29
Speaker
nice. And today we are also joined by a legend um in the WA trial scene, the one and only Ben Leeson.
00:00:40
Speaker
Morning, guys. Yeah, doing well? Doing well. Snuck out from work for a little bit, so happy to be yeah yeah chatting and thanks for having me on the pod. No worries. Yeah, we're excited to chat to you today because don't think we've had you on the podcast before. um And you've you're definitely um been a bit of a rising star in the trail scene. You've been around for a while on the WA scene, but um I feel like you've popped up a bit on some other like races around Australia.
00:01:08
Speaker
um So yeah, let's let's get started and jump straight into your journey to trial running. So how did you get into the sport? Yeah, so I was living remotely for quite a few years. Most recently in Timberley for a few years, living a fairly unhealthy lifestyle i with few beers every night and not much in the way.
00:01:33
Speaker
I made the my partner may move back down to Perth. One of the reasons was to sort of improve our health and our lifestyle. um So, yeah, came back to Perth.
00:01:46
Speaker
start of 2022 and just sort of jumped into just a bit of gym work, sort eating a bit healthier in but and my partner wanted to do a little 5k on Rottnest so I thought I'd jump in and and do that with her and then bumped into my mate who hadn't seen for about seven years, just done the half marathon and wanted to do I wanted to do a full marathon and I, after a couple of beers at the pub, decided it was great idea to join him on that adventure to jump into Perth Marathon at the end of 2022. And then, yeah, that same mate then convinced me into a backyard ultra and was also the first one to take me out onto the trails
00:02:32
Speaker
um And that time, I think the trails is really what what got me hooked. i I did enjoy the marathon, but road running was a bit boring and monotonous for me. um Being back on the trails sort of reminded me of being a ah kid running around in the bush.
00:02:47
Speaker
So I grew up in a country town. So, yeah, start of 2023, I sort of started hitting the trails.
Realizing Talent and Podium Finishes
00:02:55
Speaker
And it's been a fairly rapid progression from there and I've enjoyed it every minute.
00:03:01
Speaker
Yeah, awesome. So what was your first trail race? My first trail race would have been one of the Perth Trail Series local races. So did the full winter series, which was four events, culminating in a 50k.
00:03:18
Speaker
um So starting with, ah i did the first one with my partner, 15k. And then, yeah, the next one's for around that 20, 25k marks. and Yeah,
00:03:30
Speaker
which would have been July or August um of 2023. And yeah, twenty twenty' right um and it was doing reasonably well, which always makes you feel good about yourself and want to keep going and and and improving.
00:03:45
Speaker
Definitely. And like with your performances, did you sort of notice you were quite talented straight away or do you feel like you've sort of improved the more you've done it?
Lessons from First East Coast Race
00:03:54
Speaker
I've definitely come a long way since then, but yeah, I realised was reasonably good at the sport from the from the start, which is nice.
00:04:03
Speaker
um I'd never done a whole lot in the endurance space, but even growing up, was always sort of I'd be the one that would keep going for a game of soccer or even for surf lifeaving that I did for quite a number of years i'd do better in the the longer stuff.
00:04:20
Speaker
um I was never the the fastest over any sort of sprinting or anything like that. um And, yeah, noticed I was i was doing reasonably well. um Only local race, but I managed to get onto the podiums in the last couple of races. And then, yeah, from there, it sort of put that drive in me and um thought, yeah, let's let's give this a red hot crack.
00:04:42
Speaker
I did a long run with Ben and... um Yeah, he's got a big engine we going up the first uphill. So I was leading most of the way and then one of the uphill he somehow got into the front and yeah the other pace just increased pretty quickly. I'd look down at my watch. My heart rate is like 160 heart rate and Ben is just like slowly getting away from me. So you're definitely a lot of talent and natural ability.
00:05:07
Speaker
um But yeah, it's nice that you are getting deeper into trail running, even though You are living in Frio, which is pretty flat, um um but you still did really well in Buffalo.
00:05:21
Speaker
What was the kind thought about going and hitting your first hundred day race? Yeah, it was pretty um exciting. I knew after I had ah had a pretty good year last year um of local races and also competed at the um XTERRA World Championships over in Wales um in the I think it was for that one um and actually yeah managed to scrape into the top 10 for that one and had a ah pretty great race over there which sort of opened my eyes um a little bit in terms of what I potentially could be capable of um and then I thought
00:06:02
Speaker
Yeah, it really sort of dialed in this year and wanted to branch out. So, yeah, Buffalo was my first East Coast race, second 100k race. I did Feral Peak on the Bimowin track here in end of November just before.
00:06:20
Speaker
a reasonably good day out in terms of performance and result-wise. But, yeah, a lot of learnings from that first race.
00:06:32
Speaker
in relation fueling and hydration. um
Training Regimen and Conditioning
00:06:36
Speaker
And then, yeah, the the big goal for this year, which was the first race the year, was the the Buffalo Stampede.
00:06:42
Speaker
um And, yeah, pretty excited to race some of the the best in Aussie head over to to that and um managed to get a ah solid three-month block of training in.
00:06:54
Speaker
purely for that um with a couple of trips down to the Stirling Ranges to actually find some sort of decent hills that we get here in ah in Western Australia but still quite humbling over there. The legs definitely weren't fully conditioned for it but um yeah absolutely stoked with the the third place over there and yeah had ah had a good race.
00:07:15
Speaker
And we spoke a bit when we ran about some of your training, but can you tell us a little bit about um your overview on training, maybe how like a normal week looks like for you?
00:07:30
Speaker
Yeah, so in terms of sort of run volume, probably on the the lower scale of of volume, I try to sit around that 100Ks a week.
00:07:40
Speaker
which is still reasonable, but I do a lot of other work around it to sort of supplement it. So I'll do Reforma Pilates four times a week. There's two days a week in the gym for strength training on top of that.
00:07:56
Speaker
ah There's some cycling in summer. There's some swimming. There's also, I do Muay Thai as well a couple of days a week um and, yeah, fairly physical job. And then my other hobby is I spend a fair bit of time, so especially over summer, doing a lot of spear fishing, which is sort of good aerobic conditioning on the legs as well.
00:08:18
Speaker
um So pretty consistently. um a lot of my miles are just easy miles to and from work as well. So I'm only 5Ks from work, so a daily commute will be running. So most days are ah double like double days, um although only only small amounts.
00:08:37
Speaker
It seems to be be working for me sometimes if I've got a bit more time or do a bit longer. Generally always carrying a pack so I've got lunch and my clothes and stuff like that in my bags when running to and from work which I think probably helps with that conditioning as well.
00:08:55
Speaker
And then track on Tuesday. track on Tuesday night. But yeah, started that one up recently. um yeah Yeah, try and develop that top end speed.
00:09:06
Speaker
um I do, religiously, I go to my running club, which is the Manning Park Trail. run every Thursday night. um And there's a big group run at different paces, and I'll lead the faster group on the Thursday night.
00:09:20
Speaker
And I'll usually run there to try and get some some extra fatigue and verte in the legs before that. And then I'll work shift work. So my long runs vary depending on what what my work looks like. But I'll generally try and get my long runs in on Sunday or Sunday or if I'll have a four-day break, I'll try and do back-to-backs.
00:09:43
Speaker
um Not overly long wrong runs, generally only max eight three, three-and-a-half-hour mark. But I'll do it after a late session at the gym or um with a fair bit of fatigue.
00:09:54
Speaker
So I'm sort of mimicking that back end of the pace without having to do huge long runs.
Recent Achievements and Future Plans
00:10:00
Speaker
Do you work with a coach or is this all kind of you making all this up? Yeah, work with the coach. I started with Clint Slomps, a sort of Leeds running park trail runners, ah probably two years ago now um after my, um yeah, backyard ultra, a second backyard ultra that I did. And I decided i was going to sort of enter that trail space and wanted a bit more.
00:10:23
Speaker
ah programming it or sort of structure of what I do. It's probably also helped with slowing me down a little bit on those those easier days instead of just going out and running hard and fast all the time that we all love to do.
00:10:38
Speaker
So you backed up Buffalo with a win at Margaret River as well. Talk us through that. did you How did you recover um so quickly? Yeah. So, yeah, six weeks between 100K and then 80K. I knew it was going to be tight, but I decided because I was tossing up earlier in the ah late last year when was going to do Buffalo or potentially Tarawera, and I decided if I'm going to travel for a big race, I'd give myself the more time um and deal with the whatever the fallout from that would be for the Margaret River Ultra um after that. So yeah, the goal was the big block into Buffalo, which I got, um and then it was purely about sort of recovery. So it was a you know a week of rest and then another week of very easy.
00:11:29
Speaker
um And then really it was just a slow build back into Margaret River. um and basically off the back of what I'd built for for Buffalo and, yeah, went into the race feeling actually surprisingly really quite good.
00:11:44
Speaker
um And, yeah, the first 50Ks that race I was flying and I felt felt amazing. It all caught up with me in the last 10Ks, but don't know what you do, the generally ultras, the last 10Ks, regardless of what happens from there. And, yeah, yeah.
00:12:03
Speaker
really happy with, yeah, first time doing the 80k at Margs. So I've done the 42 the last two years and that was really the last big race in WA that I hadn't done um and I wanted to to put my best foot forward for what I could do in that.
00:12:19
Speaker
Yeah, came out with the win and a new record, so very exciting. 20-minute course record. Yeah. I remember chatting to Vlad, on that long run and saying that the old course record was sort of optimistic and um I'd give it a crack and see how how I could do and yeah very much surprised myself um with that speed um and yeah coming in 20 minutes for the old one Yeah, i think I think we should mention that it is eighty k long on kind of a combination of sand, rocks, beach running, and you did that in 450 pace.
00:12:56
Speaker
So 6.17, around 6.17 for the 80K, which is, yeah, 20-minute course record on, I guess, probably Western Australia's biggest trail race now. um It's definitely picked up some momentum, and it's nice to see some fast running on that course.
00:13:14
Speaker
Yeah, um yes I think that and um Transcend, which is my other favourite here in WA, probably the the two biggest. But pure volume of people, definitely Margaret River at the moment has it well and truly. it um Yeah, the whole WA running community seems to be down there for that that weekend, which is ah just a cool event meet to be part of.
00:13:38
Speaker
And yeah, the the Soft Sand... It doesn't get easier and it's still there right until the sort of at least 4Ks from the end you're still hitting soft sand. um But yeah, the first 20Ks are pretty nice.
00:13:51
Speaker
30Ks are pretty nice, um quite fast. So it's about banking time there and but not cooking yourself.
00:13:58
Speaker
And talking about Transcend, is that your next race? Yeah, that's next race. So um I've got yeah the same guys course record from Margs that I'm hoping to take at Transcend this year.
00:14:11
Speaker
um But yeah, the main goal is I think I can crack the six hours for for Transcend this year. i was close last year chasing Mikey around. And if I have as good of a race as I did last year, think ah that's the that's the number one goal. And then um Yeah, if I can get the course record there, even even better. But I know there's going to be some more East Coasters coming across to join us, which is super exciting. I love having that extra
Trail Running: Europe vs. Australia
00:14:37
Speaker
competition coming to WA.
00:14:39
Speaker
Is that Mike Laurie that's got the record? ah No, it's Josh Chug. So the same guy who had the Margaret Vulture course record as well. ay Yeah, I don't know. I'm i'm waiting for Mike Lory to come race Transcend hard and fast, but he doesn't make much. but yeah um' and I haven't actually met him in person before. I've obviously known sister pretty well, Christy. But yeah, I'll be excited to to meet him and race against him. I think um Shane is definitely trying to bring over some people for Transcend this year. So it should be a pretty fast year, which will be exciting.
00:15:16
Speaker
Yeah, very much looking forward to it. I know um Ben Butler's signed up for it. He messaged me not that long ago and I think Ben better be coming through. So we might have three Bens in the podium.
00:15:30
Speaker
And um have you got anything between now and then or is that your next race? um I'll probably fit in maybe another race. I'm thinking maybe be a 10K or a half plus trail race in there sort of that month to six weeks out.
00:15:45
Speaker
um But I haven't locked anything in yet, so that would just be field races. But yeah, Transcend a real focus. And you also got that automatic spot for the Asia Pacific long course. Is that still something you are thinking about for later on in the year?
00:16:00
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. So yeah, absolutely stoked with that. From Buffalo, it was sort of a ah pipe dream to even think about. um If you'd asked me four months ago or five months ago, it wasn't even, at you know, it was one of those things that maybe one day.
00:16:17
Speaker
um So, yeah, definitely post-Transcend all focus is going to be on, yeah, China and i'm working to do what I can to represent Australia well and um join that team.
00:16:31
Speaker
Are there areas in your running that you are going to try and improve from now to Transcend until um Asia-Pacific Trail Champs? Yeah, i think it's just um getting as much hill running in as I potentially can.
00:16:44
Speaker
um I have haven't even looked or known about that course for China, but I know it's going to be hilly. Transcend's obviously the bit different versus the coast. It's sort of shorter, sharper hills. um They're more frequently ups and downs instead of the big, long 10km of uphill for Transcend.
00:17:05
Speaker
So it's, yeah, it'll be tough when I can get out to the hills. So it's a half hour, 40 minute drive to the closest bit of reasonable elevation here in Venice. So it's just really focusing on on that and and getting the strength in um and maybe another trip down to the Sterling Ranges as well. Will you get out to the Transcend course before the race?
00:17:26
Speaker
Yeah, I'll probably do one or two um two trips out there. There's A lot of the course um is on private property um or through Pruna Wildlife Park.
00:17:40
Speaker
um And I think Pruna's actually closed still this year. They normally open for winter, but I think they've had quite a bit of damage through there from reaching the storms and things like that.
00:17:51
Speaker
um So i don't even know if I'll be able to get into Peruna to practice that bit of the course, but our legs one legs two through the national park, I can definitely get in.
00:18:01
Speaker
yeah, I'll do a couple of runs out there. But it yeah, again, it's about an hour drive from my house to get out to to the course. And a lot of trail running, trail races coming up, but you also have a lot of natural speed.
00:18:14
Speaker
Do you have like a goal to do a marathon maybe in a couple of years as well? Not at this stage. i sort of, I did Rottnest Marathon last year um because I wanted to do that and just to see how fast I could to run in a marathon. um And yeah, managed to get COVID 10 days out, which coincidentally I did, when I did the 5K in Rottnest, I got COVID 10 days out before Rottnest.
00:18:38
Speaker
Three years previously as well, three years previously. um But yeah, I had a pretty good race that race. The goal was to get under three and I managed 246 or 247, something like that.
00:18:50
Speaker
um One day I might like to go and race on a flat, fast road marathon, but yeah, I'm much prefer the the fun stuff of the trails.
00:19:04
Speaker
Running circles around the track once week is enough for me, but I do enjoy that. but yeah I don't think there's anything in my near future of of doing a fast road marathon. um and If I do, it's purely to increase my speed for all the trails.
00:19:17
Speaker
and I think we should just mention that Rodniss Marathon has got about 500 meters of elevation gain.
00:19:24
Speaker
That's the fun part. You've got to combine that trail with the road marathon as best as possible. Yeah, it's a hilly road marathon, so not a really quick one. It's a very slow marathon, as slow as it gets. What time did you run when you raced at Rottenaft? think it was about 2.46, 2.47, something like that.
00:19:41
Speaker
um So, yeah yeah, very happy with performance there um on that day. And you're loving the longer distances, though? like Do you think you'll stay at the sort of ultra?
00:19:54
Speaker
distances? Yeah, I think around that 50k 100k seems like me for the time being. i a bit like Vlad, I enjoy running in the daytime.
00:20:05
Speaker
At this stage, don't have much interest in doing the stuff where it runs overnight. So if I can finish a race in daylight hours, that's that's a win.
00:20:15
Speaker
um But yeah, I think that's where sort of my skills seem to lie. generally come through the back end reasonably strong. um And I yeah i love the the troubleshooting of the ultras and sort of managing things. It's more of a brain game when you're spending six hours trying to figure out how to prevent cramps or how to stop your gut playing games on you.
00:20:38
Speaker
um It takes away from everything else. No, it's really exciting to see you do well and um coming into the sport with a different mindset. And I guess to this comes a question, how much do you follow trail running on a global scale? Like we're obviously so far away from the sport and you haven't been doing it for so long. Do you follow, have you it seen the like the European off-road champs that happen on the weekend?
00:21:04
Speaker
No, I don't have, I mean, I probably follow the big races like most people. Um, like your Western States and your sort of your CCC, UTMB type races, but on ah on a smaller local level, I've the have really got got no idea of what happens in the bigger picture stuff. um Sort of sit in the bubble here in Western Australia and Australia, but um yeah, I just love the the adventure of it. but I wouldn't mind getting over just to experience something overseas.
00:21:37
Speaker
One of those big races. The atmosphere that I know they have in Europe and things like that, which be cool one day.
Preparing for International Races
00:21:43
Speaker
Yeah, no, I think, yeah, a bright future ahead of you, you know, doing so well so quickly, I guess, not being in the sport for so long and and doing well in competitive races.
00:21:57
Speaker
Yeah, I'm excited to follow your journey. Hopefully we can do a couple more runs together and I'll try and hold on on those uphills. um But we are going to move on to the off-road journey.
00:22:10
Speaker
Eurochamps, which um I guess as a fan of the sport, I spend most of the weekend um watching the live stream. It did go for like three days straight. Did you follow much of it, Jess?
00:22:23
Speaker
um I did sort of just see the updates on social media. I saw like the weather was a bit crazy, it was a bit of kind of fog and they got a bit lost or Judith. Yeah, I just saw a clip of Judith not really knowing what was coming.
00:22:37
Speaker
Yeah, I think like the first day the weather was a bit rough and at at the top and it was a bit like um low visibility and and like on the top of that plate ah plateau there. But overall they had pretty good weather. And yeah, i saw that clip of Judith um kind of going, am I going the right way? And the cameraman goes like, i don't know, I'm just following you. But yeah, Judith did win the the female.
00:23:03
Speaker
um They don't. They just have like a trail race. So it was a 52K trail race. They don't have a short and a long. So that was on the second day. French Richard won the male.
00:23:15
Speaker
The main race who won is ah is also won the world champs. So he's obviously um doing really well. and really smashed our course. He won.
00:23:27
Speaker
He beat Daniel Patisse by a solid five minutes there. I was watching it and just watching him run uphill and downhill, like the camera people couldn't keep up with him. The guy on the bike couldn't keep up with on the downhills, which was pretty impressive to see. But overall, like the coverage of the event was really cool. And like, I think seeing so many good runners show up to the European world champs in the middle of the season um is definitely like a good sign.
00:23:58
Speaker
A lot of good juniors racing as well. um So I think, yeah, definitely like good signs for the sport in general coming. down becoming such a big deal. Like I think obviously trail running in Europe is a big deal, but just seeing so many under 20s compete at the event and how professional the whole event looked was really cool. But pretty much um first day was the uphill race.
00:24:25
Speaker
um Second day was that trail race. And then on the last day was the up and down. um They had the under 20s, the men and the females, so it's all kind of separated, different start times. And yeah, it was really cool to watch the live streams and they're all still online. So if you're ever doing like a bike ride indoors um or doing a treadmill run, you can always check check the live stream um on YouTube.
00:24:49
Speaker
um And hopefully we have like, you know, like it would be nice to have that kind of an event for an Asia Pacific trail champs. We're definitely pretty far away from it still. um But at least we're on the right track of having something. The European off-road champs are governed by the European Athletic Federation. So they've been doing it for a couple of solid years. and Yeah, it's definitely shaped up to be a good event. And I think for us in Asia Pacific, they should try and aim for something like that, you know, really getting done the under 20 involves on the 23 involved and focusing on uphill, up, up and down as well, not just the trail racing, um, because that's like a good way of getting younger people into the sport.
00:25:35
Speaker
Yeah. So what's the difference between off-road running and trail running? I think they just call it off road. It's been something they've been using for the last few years. I think maybe they've been trying to push it a bit more towards trail Like it's just a different name that they kind of use, but they've been using off road for like the last whatever years. And I think lately they're kind of like maybe we should start naming a trail running. um I mean, the course itself, I mean, from what I saw on the live stream it was like a mixture of like runnable trails and gravel roads to like technical proper um rocky trails.
00:26:15
Speaker
um It wasn't like actually i thought it was a good middle ground for the trail race. um It was 52k with 2,200 meters to 2,300 meters. So like a fairly runnable quick course. um Good to follow as well. Good for like live streams, which I think is important.
00:26:37
Speaker
um when you are putting a big event like that and trying to get people to tune in and watch and and support. um But yeah, off-road has just been something they've been using like in the past few years, but they slowly going to start calling a trail running, a bit more trail running.
00:26:55
Speaker
Okay. Yeah, no, it seems like they've figured out like a good way to get more people into the sport. Yeah, definitely something that we should try and replicate over in Australia.
00:27:07
Speaker
I think in Europe, like generally, like the kind of the like the like you know the big countries, Italy, Spain, France, um Austria and so on, they do put a lot of effort into those events and um really push some of the best athletes to show up and try and have big teams, especially like France, who did really well. They won a lot of the junior events.
00:27:29
Speaker
a lot of the senior events, a lot of the team events. um So that investment does pay off and it shows that our professional, there are like big teams that show up to those events.
00:27:42
Speaker
um And yeah, I think we're definitely a few years away from it, but it is a nice way to experience the sport as a fan. Ben, what sort of course do you prefer, like more technical or more runnable?
00:27:58
Speaker
I think I'm probably better at the more runnable, but I do enjoy the more technical um sort of races. But that's obviously coming from Western Australia in comparison technical in Europe is a whole, la I think it's ah going to be a whole different ballgame over there.
00:28:13
Speaker
um But, yeah, I think What do you do when you go to the Sterling Rangers? Because I reckon some of those are pretty heavy. try to tick off, yeah, every every one of them.
00:28:26
Speaker
ah I'll try and do a ah few repeats and get as many of the mountains as can. But yeah, some of them are, yeah, they're very slow, slow technical stuff, and especially in the upper couple of hundred meters.
00:28:40
Speaker
yeah And then you've got more runnable stuff. So it depends on um what I've got coming up and what I can, what the legs are feeling like. Yeah. We need to get someone to organize a race at the Sterling Ranges. I think that would be pretty cool. I think they tried a few times. They just would not get the permits.
00:28:59
Speaker
Oh, right. Yeah. I think there was like a few like a few times where people already started the Instagram page for an event coming up and the Sterling Ranges Marathon, which you there's ah pretty much like a 42K loop that you can kind of do there.
00:29:14
Speaker
And yeah, I think we were just pretty hard getting the approvals. Yeah, i think they're just took a probably gravel road-style race now um around the base of them.
00:29:25
Speaker
So not nearly as exciting, but yeah, tough one to get permits to to run on those single tracks.
00:29:34
Speaker
Yeah, they have a marathon right just at the bottom of it. Yeah. But. Yeah, it's a shame because it's, I mean, I've never been down there because I think it's, and know and that's what me and Ben talked about, like the drive there is four hours from Perth. So it's a pretty big investment.
00:29:52
Speaker
You can't just go for a day. You got to go for at least a night. Um, and technically speaking, you could fly from Perth to Kota Kinabalu and get a bigger mountain or you can fly Perth to Bali, drive for another hour and like get to like really high elevation as well.
00:30:11
Speaker
And probably would be cheaper as well. Yeah. yeah Yeah. It's crazy the remoteness and sparseness of where we travel and where we drive to. Yeah. So that's like the only place that you could, what is it? 600 meters that you can get.
00:30:28
Speaker
Yeah, i think the top's, yeah, it's only a 600 metre climb. Top of Bluff Knoll's about 1,000, just over 1,000 metres, but it's only a 600 if you go from the car park. um But if you go from the actual campsite down the bottom, you run the road, which is about 7km's,
00:30:44
Speaker
up and then you've got the the last bit of climb up to the top yeah so technically speaking you can almost just fly to melbourne and drive um to wombaton and get a thousand meters of elevation gain um
00:31:01
Speaker
um But yeah, I think i think you've you've done it well because you went like every few months and did a bit of training and then few months later did again. it's like, yeah, a good way of doing it where you're not just like going once and like smashing yourself.
00:31:15
Speaker
You really spread that out, those few trips that you did down there. Yeah, I think it made um a fair bit of difference when it comes to yeah just that downhill um conditioning on those legs, I think, is is huge.
00:31:27
Speaker
um So, yeah, I'll definitely be doing it again before China. And, um yeah, I love it down there regardless. So we'll see what happens. Yeah, maybe we just got to go to Bali for a training camp before China or go all the way to China already.
Choosing Races for Championships
00:31:42
Speaker
Let's do it. Come on, I'm going to be twisted, Vlad. Yeah.
00:31:49
Speaker
Um, but I think we're going to move on to, um, Otra announcing, um, the interest for races to come forward for 2027 short course, long course mountain running up and down, hopefully uphill as well.
00:32:07
Speaker
And a hundred miles. Jess, you have any suggestions for events that could work, um, as national champs for 2027? Yeah, well, I guess we were goingnna chatting a bit about this. It's it's kind of hard because um so assuming the Worlds will be sort of at the end of the year, like October, November,
00:32:28
Speaker
um most of our kind of short and long course races are at the sort of start of the year, so like from February, March and then into May.
00:32:44
Speaker
I mean, it'd be it'd probably be ideal if, like each day, I could note some of them. I think the timing kind of works because it's not too early, but it's not too close.
00:32:57
Speaker
um But, yeah, it just depends if UTMB are interested in holding national champs, which I'm not sure if they would be. um yeah Yeah, but, I mean, you can always say that's national champs and you don't have to get a trophy on the day. You can just use that ah use that event as a qualification race. But, yeah, think you're right. Yeah.
00:33:20
Speaker
With the later championships in the year, you want those qualifying races to be a bit closer to it. um I think, yeah, if we are doing a race that will qualify you to the World Champs in February, ah that's a long way away from November. um Yeah, I guess it's still tough trying to find events that would want to do it, put it on.
00:33:44
Speaker
um and then maybe courses that are similar to the world champs as well.
00:33:52
Speaker
I've heard the South African trails are pretty technical, like those kind of coastal trails. Have you heard much about it?
00:34:03
Speaker
Yeah, that's what i I've never been, but that's what I've heard. It's a bit more rocky, slow. So, yeah, I guess maybe something around Tassie could work as a qualifying race.
00:34:15
Speaker
um Yeah, I think sticking with, like, Kunani for the uphill would be ideal. um Yeah, i mean, ah the only problem is that we'll be in early in the year, so, like,
00:34:31
Speaker
eight months before, ten before. Yeah. I mean, it would be interesting to see who goes to China from the two automatic spots that were handed out for the short course and the long course.
00:34:46
Speaker
um You know, there's still been a big gap. I know in Europe, like the qualifying races for the European champs for a lot of countries like Germany and Austria, We're around like early May or like kind of April. So like, you know, three or four months before.
00:35:05
Speaker
but yeah, hopefully we'll get some races, not too far away, but far in advance. so you can actually plan, plan your year for it.
00:35:16
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It's a tough one coming from Oz. Just sort of want to plan, plan for that and travel and accommodation and everything else being, uh, quite expensive, a lot closer you get to it. But, um,
00:35:28
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, technically from Perth, it's not a bad trip if you think about it to South Africa. Time zone will be tough, but um yeah, I guess it's ah maybe eight eight ten a eight, nine hour flight.
00:35:43
Speaker
Yeah. It's a bit longer from the East Coast. But yeah, I just like, you know, like last thing you want to do is like do the champs and qualifying races like 10 months before the race.
00:35:57
Speaker
Like, yeah, you can not really, i mean, you obviously like the form that you hold, you know, gonna like, you know, maybe lose too much and have the ability to still run well 10 months later. But I don't know, it would make more sense if it's five months before the race or even six months before the race, but not almost a full year.
00:36:17
Speaker
I think as well, like if they're going to choose races that are that far in advance, like they need to implement, um, like a rule where they replace people that get injured, because i think that's been a ah huge issue with the last two or the last few iterations is that like, they don't replace athletes that get injured before the chance. And then the team just got quite small. Um,
00:36:47
Speaker
Yeah, I'd like to see them change. Yeah, I think that comes down to just sending full teams, you know, like Ben anyway, i don't know if you know, but for the China trip, you'll have to pay for everything except like two nights accommodation and some food um two days before the race. So I mean, anyway, it's like all self-funded. and Sorry, ah if the world champs, you also have to pay like a levy of seven or eight hundred dollars. I think in that sense, just send a full team. And, you know, if you are sending six people, you know,
00:37:19
Speaker
All you need is free to score for the teams. um So yeah, I think that's probably more important is just open up the spots and send a full team. seems Seems far more beneficial to get a full team over there and than if people have a bad day even or a good day, you get to pick pick and it gives a better representative of what Aussies are capable of too.
00:37:42
Speaker
Yeah, in Europe, it's a little bit different, in America as well, because they pay for your whole trip. So they could be like a little bit more like, all right, well, we need somebody that will finish in the top 50% of the field.
00:37:57
Speaker
But if you're paying for it, like you might as well just end the biggest thing possible and yeah get more people involved because that will just help the sport. But yeah, like ah it was...
00:38:10
Speaker
like yeah if you If you would have seen the countries that did show up um to the European champs, obviously like France and Spain sent full teams all you know paid by the by the government governing parties of those countries. But Germany only sent like a very selective team, um so they only had night maybe 10 athletes around ah like throughout all the events so they were a bit more like you know if you are we're only going to pay for your trip if you're going to perform and it's a very um you know short trip from germany to slovakia um you know it's not it's literally um' i'm guessing some of them drove there um if they lived like on the border of austria and germany um you know it's probably a three-hour drive
00:38:59
Speaker
but they still selected to like send a smaller team. um yeah I just hope that we get big teams across.
00:39:10
Speaker
Are there any races that you'd like to see for the national champs then, other than UTA? i It would be nice to have a Western Australian event. Yeah, it would be dry. with fair Yeah, it's probably not going to happen. But yeah, I mean, like like I think they had um five peaks in South Australia, which I really liked. Like I thought it was a good event that showcased the nice trails around um Adelaide. So I don't know. Like I think it's more about timing than courses. But then again, like –
00:39:43
Speaker
The thing is that they need races to come forward and kind of apply to wannabe championship race, um which might make more sense. Just like so choosing, like we need a race in that window of time.
00:40:00
Speaker
Let's just pick one and see if we can try and make it work with the organizers. um Yeah. it's yeah It's going to be hard to get in the right races and even like look at our short course champs, um you know, again, like happening Feb for a November race.
00:40:21
Speaker
um Yeah, 10 months ahead. And that's what I mean. Like it would be interesting to see if those spots are taken 10 months in advance.
00:40:33
Speaker
I really want to get the the competition there, so you've got to work around what the big races are already, I guess, because there's no point having a short course if you're not going to get the competition because there's other big racers that are a similar time frame.
00:40:47
Speaker
yeah yeah I think like you know like you you like e you don't have to get the perfect trail for it but I think the timing is more important um and just letting people know in advance as well so you can plan or maybe looking at a couple of races and kind of going like yeah that's the champs but for selection races like Here is four races we're going to look at, look at like people can also aim to do them as well.
00:41:20
Speaker
Yeah, it would be nice to see more like uphill races. I think that that's something that you don't see many of. Um, like it doesn't have to be a VK. like you know seven eight hundred meter climbs thats there's a lot of them around australia so i think it'd be nice to see more of them um and i'm sure ian best would be happy to see more in know australia he won't have to travel around the world looking for the vks and uphill races what about the 100 mile because that was and announced as well as part of the national chance because we've got one at eta but yeah
00:41:59
Speaker
like I feel like UTA is probably there in the only option because I think they also said they wanted one event to include all of the distances. and Are they looking for one event for all of them?
00:42:14
Speaker
yeah that's what um we've got Yeah, that's what James wrote down.
00:42:20
Speaker
It'd have to be ETA then if you're looking at one event, it's got no clues. There's not too much choice. I feel like they're making it hard for themselves. Like not many other countries do it like that. Yeah.
00:42:31
Speaker
That is, yeah, that's, that that would not be easy for one event to have all of them. I mean, yeah, like like you said, Ben, probably like UTA is the only one that could get closer. They have the uphill, which is a 12K up and down is the 22K short course.
00:42:48
Speaker
I guess long course is the 100K and then 100 miles. Yeah. and And it's a good time, I guess, like, you know. May. yeah Yeah, it's not too bad.
00:43:02
Speaker
But then i guess lot and I don't know if UTMB Ironman would want to be a part of it. It's a bit more of like a Nitra thing.
00:43:14
Speaker
But yeah, like I said, you can always just use the results. You don't have to hand out the trophies on the day, like, you know. Yeah. Yeah, we'll just have to wait to and see what happens. Hopefully they announce it with a bit of late time so that we can plan.
00:43:30
Speaker
um But yeah, so moving on we had a listener question for you, Ben, actually, which was, what are we missing, podcast and the sport, about trail running in WA?
00:43:45
Speaker
Who are the rising stars? what are the must-do events? Where are the best training spots? Yeah. He's been involved in that. um I mean, i think it's the the unfortunate circumstance, but also the first fortunate circumstance in WA is we don't have the numbers of people. So i think that um we've we're slowly building the competition. um Sort of even in in my time, I've noticed there's more and more people getting into the sport, which is growing and growing.
00:44:16
Speaker
um But we just don't have the density of population that you guys have over... over east to actually get the the high level competition in WA. I know Jane and Mitch at Transcend are doing a great job of um pushing that sort of trying
Trail Running Scene in WA
00:44:33
Speaker
to get that high level and and bringing people across from there the east coast, um which is probably the premier event in terms of competitive-wise in Western Australia.
00:44:44
Speaker
But there's some amazing events and some really cool courses um within WA, but they just don't get the the competition um like you get on on the East Coast. but um Yeah, and then, you know, training grounds, of we mentioned Stirling's, if you can get down there, it's it's awesome, good fun and beautiful.
00:45:07
Speaker
um But there's a myriad of single tracks all through the hills. um That run that I did with Vlad, I've never even been to 95% of that area. um And I've now been running through the hills for three years in Perth. So, yeah, there's there's plenty to explore and plenty to see.
00:45:26
Speaker
and unfortunately, we just don't get the... the competition, but it's it's slowly growing and if we can get yeah some higher level races, bring some more competition from the east.
00:45:37
Speaker
I think the Perth hills are like pretty underwhelming. I think um out of the trails that I've done around the country, like I think they are like quite technical. like um Canberra is good for vert, but I'd say Perth is better for like rocky, technical terrain because lot a lot of our trails are just like fire roads through the mountains.
00:46:00
Speaker
um So I actually felt I got a bit more like technical trail training like when I lived in Perth. um And it's beautiful out there. Like it's it's so nice, especially in winter when it's like all green. and Yeah, so it's definitely a stunning spot to to spend time running around. Not that I have a huge amount of comparison, but obviously you can compare just from here and then going east.
00:46:25
Speaker
Yeah. um But, yeah, beautiful and great running. um And yeah, you'll never never get bored. Yeah. And have you so um have you noticed any like rising stars in the Perth trail scene, like any young guns that have been giving you a run for your money?
00:46:43
Speaker
um None that I can think of in sort of the distance. longer distance um stuff, a local guy from Mugs, Jack Valentine's unfortunately injured for Margaret Revoltra. I dare say he's probably close to a a similar level to what I am, um but just, yeah, fairly new to the scene as well.
00:47:08
Speaker
um And yeah um I'm always interested to see, um i know Sotomahara is ah an influencer and a YouTuber,
00:47:19
Speaker
um Sort of trying to dabble into the the trail scene. He's got a pretty speedy pedigree on the on the road. So I'm excited to when he can put blocker race together to see what he's capable of.
00:47:32
Speaker
yeah um And then probably the only other, there's few younger crew that are in the in the shorter distances that that might come up. um over the next couple of years, sort of into that, um or they might stick with the shorter distance, like a young guy, Caelan Bennett, who's, yeah, doing really well in that shorter stuff, did all the Perth Trail series and and, yeah, had great races throughout the year for that. so And just had a great result over at Xterra Worlds in Malta.
00:48:04
Speaker
I think he was second for his for his age group. um And the um don't quote me on it, but I think he was a top 10 as well finisher. um or 13th or something along those lines so pretty high up for um I think he's 19 or something like that so yeah yeah I guess like um yeah probably like the main option for the younger trail runners in Perth is like the Perth trail series um which is an awesome series like I I think they do a really good job at like planning the courses and like making them really interesting and like
00:48:38
Speaker
getting to see different parts of the Perth Hills. The only like thing that I have that is a bit limiting is like how expensive it is. like I think it's a bit overpriced for a local trail series um because if you compare it to the trail series in Canberra, um it's almost triple what you'd pay over here. Yeah, probably.
00:49:02
Speaker
yeah I just feel like young people are trying to get into the sport, they probably couldn't afford to do every race in the series. It's almost $100, I think, per race. I think that drop the price is... Yeah, I think they dropped it a little bit. I think that a few years ago, yeah, you would pay $100 for 10K on the on a fire trails at times, but they did drop the prices a little bit. I think like they have like a really good product and they get 500 runners, literally 12 for 12 races year.
00:49:36
Speaker
twelve for twelve rices a year um and it's really good but the thing is that the elite side of things is like you'll get a good runner come win three or four or five of their races not really get much competition and then just like move on and stop doing their races um and i think literally that's happened with the three of us and a lot of other runners that would come do three and four and ah kind of out of there um it's just because yeah like ben said we just don't have And now people like enough good runners to like show up on regular basis and like compete against each other. So some of the young kids and might do well go like, yeah, trail running is fun, but like I'm winning by 10 minutes at ah at a 10 K trail race. I might just go back to the roads and get a bit more competition there.
00:50:26
Speaker
um That's probably like, you know, ah the downside of of trail running in Perth is that we do get big numbers, but like not very competitive.
00:50:38
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, they they put on a yeah great event. And I think, as you're saying, if it's very affordable, if it's cheaper, there's probably a lot of us that would use it as just a training run as well. But when it's, you know, you're spending that much money for a training run, it's not really worth it.
00:50:55
Speaker
um And you can go out and push yourself just as hard um if you want to on ah on an actual training run, if you're not going to get the competition anyway. So um if it was yeah a bit bit more affordable, you'd go and give them a crack as your weekend long run or whatever.
00:51:12
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'm just on the website and the, yeah, it's, um yeah, $77.87 and $97 for green course, blue course and black course.
00:51:25
Speaker
um I think if you sign up for the whole winter series is a bit cheaper, but um yeah, this is a bit cheaper than what it used to be. So the 10K, the blue course is $87. It used to be a little bit more.
00:51:39
Speaker
um But yeah, they're still getting like, you know, 500 people in events. So yes because i know oh yeah, so down to 16 are only $30. Yeah. um yeah So that's, you know, not too bad.
00:51:54
Speaker
um But yeah, i think probably one thing that they could do is try and like put in like three or $400 prize money for some of those events. And then you'll see a little bit more competition.
00:52:07
Speaker
um of like people coming back and using it as a training race, but then like, oh, I can make $500 in this event or $400. And for some of the juniors, they would show up quite often there is $500 for the win. that could be something because, yeah, they are getting a lot of people, but, yeah, not like a lot of elite runners.
00:52:36
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, it's a tough one. Yeah, I think like, I don't know, it's it's hard in WA because there's just not the population, but I think, yeah, they definitely have like a
Recent Results and Upcoming Events
00:52:49
Speaker
good product. So at least there's something.
00:52:52
Speaker
Yeah. Um, cool. So I think we'll move into the results now. Um, so we did have, um, Ian Best over in Japan, um, doing what he does best, which is a VK and he came ninth, which is pretty awesome.
00:53:12
Speaker
Um, and second in the up and down race. So that was the big Kwayo Valley Skyrun, um, in Japan. you know much about that race flag?
00:53:23
Speaker
um no but it'll be pretty fun i mean it's getting warm in japan right now but maybe up there it's not too bad um yeah but yeah it does do a lot of traveling like you did um transvolcania not long ago um so yeah it's a good lifestyle Yeah, and it's nice because you do all those kind of short events you can recover quick. Like the uphill events, you can you know go back to normal the next day pretty much.
00:53:52
Speaker
um So yeah, that's pretty cool. Yeah. um Well, and, yeah, heading back to Australia, ah we also had run Forest in Victoria, um which had 21K trail race, a 10K and a But we'll just run through the 21K. So in the men, we had Hayden Morrow in first place in 1 hour 36. Simon Angus took second in 1 hour 37.
00:54:25
Speaker
And Sam Maffitt took third in 1 hour 39. And then for the women, we had Kelsey Dubar in first place in 1 hour 47. Matilda Moore hour And Georgie Leslie in third in hour
00:54:47
Speaker
where on those run is
00:54:52
Speaker
And then over in Canberra we had, so yeah, one of our Sri Chinmui Trial Series events. So this year they're all like quite short distances. so the longer distance was 12.8 um and the shorter one was 8k so that was over at red hill which is kind of just like one of the little peaks um in the city so for the twelve point eight k we had ben silk in taking out the men's in 51 12 um and then britney harridan uh taking out the women's in 56 01
00:55:31
Speaker
And then for the 8K, we had Cody Clarkson taking out the win in the men in twenty nine fifteen and Louise Sharp taking out the win in the women in thirty six seventeen
00:55:48
Speaker
um And then back to Victoria, we also had the Unbreakable, um which sounds like it's a backyard ultra.
00:56:01
Speaker
don't if you guys have heard of that one. No, but they got five laps. ye 41 hours and 44 hours. I think that's a Barkley sort of marathon, um or sort of alike for Australia. So they do a similar sort of things of, um yeah, no no GPS, there's your map, um start at random times and and off you go.
00:56:29
Speaker
Okay. Does that interest you, Ben? I hadn't even heard of it until, yeah, literally, that's what ring I was trying to think of where that rung a bell. um I did an orienteering event um last weekend just as fun and I think I've probably got a long way to go before I get to the map, yeah.
00:56:49
Speaker
Yeah, so I mean, yeah, getting back to the race. So, it looks like there was two men that got to five laps. So, that was Tim Kaprazek and Ben Nichols.
00:57:05
Speaker
So, well done to them. um Both of those are, yeah, Tim Kaprazek is a really good and I think Ben Nichols is backyard ultra sort of athlete. So, yeah. um yeah got that mindset of of grit and determination.
00:57:22
Speaker
Cool. Yeah, so over in WA, we had Cape to Cape Ultra Marathon. um Have you done that one before?
00:57:33
Speaker
I have. bun This would be its second year now, so it's just started up. Oh, yeah. Last year, they had Absolute Torrential Marathon. downpour and weather and apparently it was horrendous but they had some quite nice work this year. Does that run in the same direction as um Margaret River or?
00:57:55
Speaker
Yeah, it does. um I believe it's, yeah, because that's the full or the half Cape to Cape so lot of it to be similar to the Margs course. Okay, yeah.
00:58:07
Speaker
It's crazy how Margaro River gets so many people in this event. Like I'm just looking at the results right now. 21 people finished, another like 10 DNFs for the 100 miler and the 50 miler, 17 finishes and another four DNFs.
00:58:27
Speaker
Yeah, very few. Yeah, I mean, considering the Margot River sails out in like 10 minutes and then you have a fairly similar event, you know, even if you just look at the 50 miler, only set 21 runners doing it.
00:58:44
Speaker
Yeah. On a similar course, I guess, as well.
00:58:50
Speaker
That is strange. Could be an option for those people that don't get a spot at Marg's. Did back up. Yeah. Yeah, i mean, it's a pretty famous mountain bike course race, um, Cape to Cape and people travel like internationally for it.
00:59:09
Speaker
Um, but yeah, it's, I think it's just, it's, I mean, I think the 50 mile makes a bit more sense. Um, we are in winter and daylight is obviously, uh,
00:59:22
Speaker
getting to its like lowest time so like gets light in perth right now at seven till like 5 20. so you don't get a crazy amount of daylight right now so it's i think it's all right for the 50 miler but for the 100 milers like most of well all of them are pretty much like a day plus that's a lot of like night running on like very slow trails It'd be interesting see. I know a lot of Sean's events for the milers and that, they generally start late in the evening or at night as well. So it'd be interesting to see what time they they actually started that, which I find odd um instead of the early morning starts.
01:00:02
Speaker
Yeah, yeah i mean, like it could maybe work better in like September or something where there's a bit more daylight as well. Just a bit more enjoyable. um I think like, you know, running on rocks and like on the coast and when it's already cold and wet and windy, like that part of the world, it's very, very windy. like um it's some the windiest parts of Australia right there yeah dark wind coldness and then 100 miles yeah you're not selling it there Vlad no I think like the 50 miles would be a pretty good event considering you know similar distance to Margot River in like few weeks later but yeah only 21 people that's enough of that
01:00:52
Speaker
It would be interesting to see if it did get pushed to the end of the year, if they'd get a ah lot more takers to space out that from Margs too. Yeah, maybe you're right. Yeah. yeah um Anyway, just mentioning the winners. so in the 100 mile, Will Hooper took out the win in hours, And Nancy Shaw took out the wind for the ladies in 31 hours 38. And then in the 50 mile, had Braden Wilson taking out the wind in 9 hours 41. Kate Black taking out the wind and the ladies in 18 hours 21. Okay.
01:01:34
Speaker
no So heading it back to Victoria, we also had the Pace, the Pyrenees Ultra Trail Race. So that would um was a 50K.
01:01:46
Speaker
And in the men, ah Steve Miller took out the win in 4 Hours 17. And then in the women, Ellie Allison took out the win.
01:02:05
Speaker
I don't think we had, yeah, we didn't have,
01:02:15
Speaker
we didn't have a female in 50K, unfortunately. um But Rachel Ayers took out the win in the for the women in the twenty five k
01:02:28
Speaker
um And then just lastly, over in South Australia, we had another trail series on. So that one is the Kiputu Forest Trail Run, um which is 23K. And in the men, we had Max Stevens taking out the win in one hour 34.
01:02:47
Speaker
And then the women, we had Ellie Davis taking out the win in one hour 53. So go down to those runners.
01:02:58
Speaker
So um what is coming up? So next this week we've got a few different trail races around the country. It's definitely starting to get light on as we're into winter and there's sort of fewer events this time of the year. But we've got the Wild Boar Trail Run in Victoria, Towered Trail Run in South Australia.
01:03:23
Speaker
Yandina 5.0 in Queensland, the Four Corners Trail Run in the Northern Territory um and another one of the Canberra Runners Winter Series, which is Stromlo Forest Park here in the capital.
01:03:39
Speaker
um Cool. So that brings us to the end of the show. Thanks so much for jumping on, Ben. It was really cool to hear from you. And I think you've probably got the most variety in your training week out of any of our guests that we've ever had on. I don't think we've got any, we've ever had a guest that does spearfishing and reformer Pilates as part of their training. So i hope our listeners enjoyed that one.
Conclusion and Farewell
01:04:03
Speaker
thanks for Thanks for having me. And yeah, it seems to be working, so i'm enjoying it. I'll stick with it. Yeah, love it. And yeah, we'll be excited to follow your journey to Transcend and China at the end of the year.
01:04:17
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. Oh, we didn't do an update for us, but... I think we yeah we've done enough updates of our own running, so it was nice to um hear about Ben and the way he's training and what's coming up. We'll definitely be following along and yeah, it would be cool to have you on maybe in the lead up to China or after China. And um yeah, thanks for, thanks for coming on.
01:04:45
Speaker
appreciate it. Thanks. All right. Otherwise we'll see you guys next week. Thanks for listening. See you guys.