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Autistic Masking Is Language - Building Social Skills On The Spectrum w/Adam Mohamed
271 Plays4 years ago
What autistic traits can and can't you work on? How can an autistic person become sociable? What is the University party experience like?
In this episode of the Thoughty Auti Podcast, Thomas talks to his good friend Adam Mohamed about their days of parties and social events at University... highlighting some of the ways they overcame the social deficits of an Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD).
At first, they talk about Adams experience on the hit autism documentary 'Aspergers In Society' as well as his current jobs of high-class bartending and making testing kits for COVID-19. Diagnosed at just 3 YEARS OLD, Adam received a lot of support during primary school, but eventually took the reins and made his own way to becoming a social butterfly.
Masking is a language?! What do I mean by that?
Well there's a large negative assumption that putting on a mask of social competence is something solely found in autistic people, and moreover the mindset you have towards social encounters can dictate whether masking is beneficial or soul destroying!
We chat about the differences in our upbringing, the differing methods we used to develop our social skills at the start, how to pick and choose the best social environments for you, and how to deal with the negative experiences when you first enter that scary communicative minefield.
If you have an exciting or interesting story and want to appear on the next podcast, please contact me at: aspergersgrowth@gmail.com
Aspergers In Society Documentary - https://youtu.be/eLpcPOSFfNE
Adams Behind The Scenes Interview - https://youtu.be/ndqRo_Xsu5Y
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♫ Track: [Chill Music] Ikson - Reverie [No Copyright Music]
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Transcript
Introduction to The 40 Auti Podcast
00:00:07
Speaker
Good day, my lovely listeners. You are listening to The 40 Auti Podcast. Tune in every week to explore inspiring stories and insightful information that dive headfirst into the world of autism and mental health. With all those tantalizing tongue twisters out of the way, let's get into the show.
Improving Social Skills for Autistic Individuals
00:00:41
Speaker
Hello all you orgies out there, welcome back to the 40 orgy podcast with your host Mr Thomas Henley from the Asperger's Grove channel. How are you doing today? It is, well it was sunny and now it's very grey outside in the town of North Yorkshire, if it is a town, if you could call it a town. Today we're going to be talking about something that I think is probably one of the most
00:01:07
Speaker
talked about things or at least the thing that people ask the most questions about and that's improving your social skills, making friends, making relationships on the autistic spectrum. It's a very difficult thing to do and I can attest to this, I've not always been the social butterfly that I am now.
00:01:28
Speaker
And I took a journey for about two or three years to sort of get where I am today, writing about it, working on things, learning about psychology, learning about social interaction. And here I am today. And we have another person who is also a very, very social butterfly.
Meet Adam Muhammad: A Dual Career Journey
00:01:49
Speaker
That doesn't make any sense. Adam, how are you doing? Doing very well. How are you?
00:01:54
Speaker
I'm alright. Not too bad. Bit of a slow day today. Yeah. I had to go get myself out of bed today. It was a bit of a tough time. I wasn't budging. Coffee usually solves that problem for me. Yeah, but then it also brings up the issue of getting downstairs as well because that's something that's not going to happen.
00:02:20
Speaker
for me it needs to be right on my desk ready to ready to be drunk in the morning but then of course it'll be cold by then so it's a bit tough you need a thermos and someone to make your coffee for you yes yeah yeah I could do that I could up order myself a personal barista and then get it sent to me by the postman I'm off the clock at the moment oh yeah of course well
00:02:50
Speaker
Following with that, would you like to give everybody a little introduction into who you are and what you do? Sure. So my name is Adam Muhammad. I'm 22 years old, birthday next week. And I graduated the University of Manchester the same year as Tom.
00:03:10
Speaker
Since graduating last year, I have essentially been a man of two careers. On one side of things, I am a cocktail and champagne bartender. With the territory of serving people their champagne lunches, I'm also a fully trained barista.
00:03:31
Speaker
And the other half of that, actually using the degree that I spent four years to earn, I currently work for a company called EM Analytical, and I'm developing coronavirus testing kits. Very cool. That is a very good introduction. As you can probably tell, everyone out there, Adam is a very well-worked man. He's, I think, just after uni, he got that bartending job, didn't you? Straight into it.
00:04:00
Speaker
I think with the past two jobs that I've had being champagne bartending and coronavirus testing kit maker, both of those jobs had the exact same introduction with the bar that I worked for. I was hired on the opening, which was a very chaotic environment because no one had worked at that bar before because it was originally open. Same thing with coronavirus.
00:04:26
Speaker
no one expected to need to make hundreds of thousands of testing kits. So both of those environments led themselves to a very hectic.
University Days: Social Life and Friendships
00:04:35
Speaker
environment, but yeah, the bar job was July. Well, I think, basically, I thought that you would be the best person to talk about social skills and stuff, because I think throughout the university experience, or at least for the last year of university, we were quite the party team, I guess. Yeah, so you, me and Jack,
00:05:06
Speaker
We tore up fourth year. Barely a weekend went by without us going out somewhere on some crazy adventure. Indeed. And I think you and Jack were sort of more... When did you meet Jack? Was it sort of the first, second year or something? Jack and I met in first year because we both did biochemistry and we kind of sported each other around lectures. But then we properly became friends, I'd say, about the beginning of second year.
00:05:35
Speaker
And then he went and did a year abroad in Sweden during third year, kept in very good contact. Myself and a few friends actually went to Sweden that year to go visit him. And then we became housemates in fourth year.
00:05:49
Speaker
Yeah, well, it was a very interesting time at university. I've never experienced that sort of group mentality. I've always been sort of the quiet, I wouldn't say lone wolf because that sounds a little bit grandiose, but I've always been the quiet one on his own, sort of dipping in and out of social groups. And
00:06:13
Speaker
The group that we had with sort of Jack and you and some of the other housemates was probably one of the first groups that I actually felt sort of involved with. It wasn't really sure there'd been times in my sort of secondary school and primary school where I'd been a part of groups, but I'd never felt a particular affiliation with them, if that made sense.
00:06:40
Speaker
Okay, so with what you said earlier about your social butterfly status being about two or three years old, was that when you started really developing your social skills?
00:06:51
Speaker
Yeah, well, I'd never really paid much attention to it. I went through the entirety of secondary school, at least the sort of tail end of it, studying and working at stuff and also doing the Taekwondo. So I'd never really had much opportunity to leave any energy to work on my social skills.
00:07:17
Speaker
It's only when I had a little bit of a dip in my second year where I didn't really have as much energy to study and that I started to sort of research, you know, look at YouTube videos on
00:07:30
Speaker
improving your charisma and all that kind of stuff and basically just taking apart conversations that I've had or thoughts that I've had about how I may be perceiving things differently and trying to use that to improve my social skills. It was quite a long and very much a trial and error process, definitely.
00:08:00
Speaker
Because I think for me, it was a very similar journey, but maybe shifted back because I think when I first started to take an upturn in my social life was I think last year of sixth form. So I might have only been like a year off from you. So you started at the tail end of sixth form. That's when you started to get involved with social groups.
00:08:21
Speaker
Year 13 was the year that I had my first girlfriend. I turned 18. Started actually going to house parties because everyone else was turning 18. I never had that 15th birthday party where you try and sneak one of your dad's beers and pretend to be a baller. I think I only started partying when I was allowed to drink.
00:08:48
Speaker
Yes, I think that that's something that we share with that. I was very much in tune with sort of what I should and shouldn't do and I thought, you know, I'm going to wait until I'm 18 to get involved in something because that seems to be the smartest way to go. Yeah. But I never went to proper parties before the 18 came around. I went to a few garden parties which
00:09:18
Speaker
We're a bit light and more of a chat than a party party. But my 18th, I had a party party and hired at a venue and stuff. Oh, nice.
00:09:33
Speaker
Yeah well it was a very sort of scattered party because there was a lot of sort of people from different groups that I was friends with and then they sort of brought a few of their friends and then you know there's sort of like little bubbles around the venue that people were gathering in. Navigating the social circles that's one of the things that we learned from partying in fourth year is how to move between groups
00:10:02
Speaker
Yeah, it's a difficult one, especially if you don't have a lot of experience. And I think just sort of making your way into any sort of social circle is quite difficult. I think, shall we talk a little bit about the documentary before we get into sort of your experiences with autism and stuff? Yeah, of course.
00:10:24
Speaker
So yeah, just for any listeners out there, we did meet in our time at university. We both did a life sciences like degree. So I did biomedical sciences. And what did you do, Adam? It was biochemistry, of course.
00:10:41
Speaker
And yeah, Adam and Jack were basically two of my closest friends in fourth year. We did a lot of things in the day and then in the night and all that kind of stuff. At one night, I think one particular night, I think we were doing some board game house party or something like that.
Autism Diagnosis and Its Impact
00:11:02
Speaker
Yes, the Game of Thrones risk evenings. Yes.
00:11:08
Speaker
But yeah, you took me to a side and you told me about you being autistic and stuff. And I think there was sort of a funny revelation that I had because I thought that there was something a little bit different about you, but I wasn't fully able to put my finger on it. Jack actually made the exact same assessment.
00:11:30
Speaker
Yes, so I think it was quite nice for me to hear it coming from someone who's obviously worked on their social skills as well because most of the people that I meet that are autistic aren't necessarily the most social people or at least they don't get involved in the party aspects of university.
00:11:53
Speaker
Yeah, I believe the exact nature of the evening. So I think it was you, me and Jack, and then Phoebe, Helena and Katie. Yes. We're all playing the board game. And I think because at the time you had also, you'd started becoming outspoken about the fact that you're autistic, like I'm fairly certain you were
00:12:17
Speaker
you started to begin raising awareness and actually making that an active part of your life. And then I remember seeing that and thinking, oh, well, you know, this is a guy who's clearly quite confident and open about these kinds of things. So I think one, that was just the evening where I decided, yeah, screw it, I'll tell him. Because I think I've become so used to being an autistic that no one noticed the idea of telling someone
00:12:44
Speaker
was almost a spontaneous decision because it's an aspect of myself that I'd almost let myself ignore.
00:12:52
Speaker
I think maybe it was like a month or two after I decided to sort of submit my proposal for the documentary to the university.
Involvement in Autism Documentary
00:13:05
Speaker
And I got in contact with a few people from around uni, a few support staff, someone from who shot the BBC Radio Manchester video. And I asked you whether you would like to be a part of it. And he said, yes, of course.
00:13:21
Speaker
And I thought that because obviously there is a lot of contrasting personalities and opinions in the autistic community and in any community. I think your views and your mentality and experiences were very, very well in contrast with some of the other experiences that people were talking about. I thought you made quite a statement in it.
00:13:51
Speaker
One thing that I was picking up on with the flow of the documentary is most of the other guests were talking about overcoming the struggles, the trials, the tribulations of being autistic, things like struggling with school. And then I remember just watching myself on television, essentially, because we have YouTube on the television, just laid back being like, oh yeah, being autistic is great.
00:14:16
Speaker
Yeah. And I think I'm very much sort of in the middle. That makes sense. I'm not overly keen about making autism a sort of like a superpower in the public eye. Yeah. But I also have a lot of experiences with the sort of negative aspects being autistic. But I thought that sort of your inclusion into the documentary made it more realistic, I guess.
00:14:44
Speaker
You didn't just, like, say all of the things that you think you should have said. It's more like your opinion, and that was, I think, what was so sort of catching by your interviews. Yeah. But what was the filming process like you? Have you ever talked about being autistic in public? I believe talking with you and Jack at my house
00:15:13
Speaker
was the first time that I'd spoken about being autistic publicly in at least a few years. I think one of the times that I remember telling anyone else was, I believe when I was in year 12, so lower sixth form. So essentially my experience with help with being autistic, not to jump the question format or anything, but the way that autism was handled at my secondary school,
00:15:42
Speaker
The help was available, but no one ever came to you. You had to go and seek the help. So if you wanted help, it was available. But if you didn't want to help, you didn't have to have someone pulling you out of lessons. And from that, I knew how many autistics there were in my school, because when we started secondary school, they put us all in a room and were like, hi, these are the services available to you. Take them or leave them. And so one of my friends was talking about his mum who worked with autistics.
00:16:10
Speaker
And my friend in sixth form was like, oh, I've never actually met an autistic. And I said to him, well, I'm one. And what was his response? His response was, oh, really? Yes. And that was probably a learning curve for him to realize that autistics can just go under the radar like that. Yeah. Another time that I spoke about it,
00:16:38
Speaker
was so I was diagnosed at the age of three years old but my parents incredibly young I was one of the lucky ones that was caught early and I told you in the documentary that they actually thought that I had a hearing issue yes yeah that's very common I think so I was diagnosed at three but obviously my mind wasn't fully formed at the time so my parents actually sat me down at the age of 10 and explains to me that I was autistic
00:17:07
Speaker
So those are the three times in my life where I can specifically remember talking about being autistic. Well, I guess now would be the fourth time. Yes. And the documentary. Five times total. You have, indeed. And it's going to be going out on a podcast and it's going to be... Well, I think the documentary has got about
00:17:29
Speaker
I think about 4,000 views last time that I checked it, which is amazing, which is awesome. It's blowing out the water pretty much every other one of my videos that I put up on YouTube. And yeah, how do you feel about that? How do you feel about the possibility of it being sort of a mainstream thing?
00:17:52
Speaker
I think I'm fairly comfortable with the idea. Yeah. Yeah. It's something that I've almost hidden for a long time because I made the necessary developments in my social skills.
Autism Awareness and Role Models
00:18:04
Speaker
And then once I was comfortable with my social abilities, I almost just wrote it off as like, oh, right, don't have to think about that ever again. Yeah. But I like that it's come up again because I
00:18:17
Speaker
I don't want to pretend to be a hero, but I would quite like the idea of any of the 4,000 people that watch the documentary gaining something out of my input. Yes. I think that's something that every single interviewee shared. I think it's something that is important. It's important to give people an idea of what Asperger's is, or ASD one, if you want to call that now.
00:18:44
Speaker
And also, I think we have a very large shortage of role models and stuff for autistic people. A lot of the stuff that's put out by
00:18:55
Speaker
any sort of media ahead is generally about sort of the more low functioning side of the spectrum. So people who have a lot of impairments that make it so that they need sort of 24 hour support or a heavy amount of support and they don't really see the other side to it, I guess, the more high functioning side.
00:19:19
Speaker
That was actually my first ever introduction to autism was at the age of five. One of my friends in school, one of their cousins was severely autistic and needed 24 hour care. And then I think part of why I repressed telling anyone that I was autistic was because of that association. I didn't want anyone thinking that I needed 24 hour care. Yeah. Um, but you know, it's a bad thought cause there's nothing wrong with that.
00:19:49
Speaker
It was a preconceived notion that I had where I didn't want to be part of the group. Yeah. You didn't want to sort of be associated in that way. Yeah. I was very much trying to avoid judgment.
00:20:04
Speaker
By having it be something that was well known, but i think the reason that i'm comfortable talking about it now is because i've essentially finished well no one's ever finished learning but i've completed the majority of my social and academic training so as a now fully formed adult that can hold relationships make friends in any circumstance and
00:20:27
Speaker
have two careers. I'm now confident in people knowing that I'm autistic because they know that I can do all those other things. Yeah, there is a lot of times sort of a preconceived notion that autistic people should be a certain way. I mean, the typical sort of signs of autism, a lot of, I mean, in the triad of impairments, two of those are
00:20:52
Speaker
linked to being able to communicate and make friends and form communicative relationships.
Autism and Identity Misconceptions
00:21:01
Speaker
So I think that overarching idea of what autism is makes people like myself and you quite a spectacle for people.
00:21:13
Speaker
I think it's always something that people are shocked about if I tell people that I am. And I do do it a lot, but only if it comes up in conversation. I'm not going to just throw it in there. It's got to come up in conversation when it does. There's never been a time where it's put someone off talking to me, which I'm quite pleased about. That's very reassuring.
00:21:41
Speaker
It is, but I think it's all the way that you do it. If you have those social skills to be able to communicate what you mean and the subtle nuances, then it's easier for people to develop a connection with you on the instant and see you're telling them that you're autistic as more of an interest rather than a statement that
00:22:07
Speaker
they should treat you this way or do any of that kind of stuff.
Developing Social Skills from School to University
00:22:12
Speaker
Yeah. I think part of the reason why I never told anyone was because I never told anyone in the first place. So I didn't know what reaction to expect. And because I didn't know what reaction to expect, I never told anyone. So breaking that cycle was part of what ended me up on this podcast.
00:22:28
Speaker
Indeed. Breaking out of it. Yeah. And I am very happy to have you on today. So yeah, we are talking about building social skills today. Yes. It is something that a lot of people struggle with. And of course, we have a lot of sort of commonalities in the social arena. But what was the process of working on your social skills like for you? Would you say that it was a lot of work independently or did you get a lot of help with it?
00:22:58
Speaker
I would say that most autistics tend towards doing things themselves. The majority of the time, let's explain it like this. I would separate it into three phases, primary school, secondary school and university.
00:23:15
Speaker
Primary school, I went to primary school with the teachers knowing that I was autistic because my diagnosis was that early. So I was put in a weekly group where we did social activities. This was things like spin a plate and then whoever picks it up first says something about themselves. Things like that. Group activities, which I'm not going to lie, I absolutely hated.
00:23:41
Speaker
I spent my entire time in primary school complaining about it to my mum.
00:23:51
Speaker
Is because this was between the ages of three and ten so my parents hadn't told me i was autistic and i was going to these weekly sessions dealing with kids that i didn't like in different years to me and all i wanted to do is get out there and play with my train set. So i spent that span of time hating all the help that i was getting. But to be honest looking back on it there was.
00:24:18
Speaker
a lot that was helpful. One of the techniques that I remember, and many autistics have been given this, is you get given a sheet of paper with cartoon faces on it. And you have to write down the emotion that you think each face represents and then you hand it back, you get told which ones run wrong, and then you learn that way. So learning nonverbal communication was one of my really, really big aspects.
00:24:46
Speaker
Then secondary school, as I mentioned earlier, I was introduced to secondary school, got plonked in a room with all the other autistics, almost told, here's to help, take it or leave it. And I took none of the help. I actively avoided going anywhere near that building, partly to repress anyone knowing that I was autistic, partly to actually get out on my own and start developing social skills in the field, as it were.
00:25:15
Speaker
secondary school being a seven year process i made a group of friends one of them was from my primary school we moved to the same secondary school. I bought myself a nice little network of friends and then finally started going out partying in sixth form and then university was a complete reshift.
00:25:34
Speaker
because universities three or four years and everyone does something different throughout each year, as you all know from doing a year abroad. Yes. So I did an integrated Masters where I spent all four years in Manchester. So I
00:25:53
Speaker
actually benefited from staying in Manchester for the all four years because some people did three years they graduated some people did two years a year in industry then came back in fourth year some people staggered their degrees and took some time off so I think part of what helped me in that area was that I stayed in the same place for four years so I could essentially watch people come and go
00:26:17
Speaker
whilst my life didn't necessarily change all that much. So creating an environment of stability and then operating outwards was what helped me at university. That's brilliant. In terms of primary school for me, I didn't know that I was autistic until I was about 10 years old. Is that when you had the diagnosis?
00:26:40
Speaker
yeah it was actually okay i was told told then as well so we were both told at the age of 10 but um prior to that i wasn't given any support for it because obviously it wasn't something that wasn't something that they knew about so they couldn't really give me any sort of social training or treatment or whatever like that
00:27:02
Speaker
I never really went to any sort of formal things that would help me with my social skills. It was all, as you said, you know, sort of getting into secondary school, a place that you can go to. You know, like we had this thing called the bridge.
00:27:18
Speaker
which basically is a place for people to go to, who have special needs and anything like that, but it's also a place that very emotional and difficult people go to as well. And that was basically for me just a safe haven. So I had this little corner, you know, with I think three or four
00:27:42
Speaker
comfy chairs that I could just sit in and pull a carrot out of my head just to chill out if I was finding my time at school a little bit hard. But none of the actual help or support really came in on the autism side of things. It was more mental health at that age for me.
00:28:07
Speaker
Yeah, I was definitely put out in the world. My mum made a lot of efforts to get me outdoors and to different social groups, like the typical cubs and beavers and all of that, you know, the scouts. Did all of that kind of stuff, did a lot of sports, went to different clubs and
00:28:30
Speaker
all that kind of stuff. I was a very sociable child but I was never given that sort of social instruction and the only place that I was given it was when I asked my parents about it, when I asked my mum about it. That's when I made adjustments to how I communicated but it wasn't to the degree, you know, like someone hands you a sheet of paper and asks you to send what emotion this person is feeling. It was never sort of
00:28:56
Speaker
formal training if that makes sense. All right yeah because I was essentially given pieces of paper to learn how to socially communicate which honestly was probably the best method for me at the time. So would you say that you and I have almost had opposite?
00:29:12
Speaker
experiences because I had all the help available to me and hated taking it. Whereas you didn't have as much support. Yeah, I think you could say that. I don't know if I was in your situation that I would want it as well. It's difficult because
00:29:36
Speaker
I think because we also tend to be so strong-minded and opinionated, it can be difficult for people to feel respected by people. I found that I need to feel some level of respect from the person who's helping me in order for me to take it on or else it's just like some asshole that's preaching it here.
00:29:58
Speaker
That's what it felt like. In the mental health side of things it did, so I can imagine that it would be something similar. But we did both get told at 10 years old, so at least we have that commonality. The difference being I was just catching up with everyone else's information, whereas in yours it was everyone finding out at the same time. Yeah, pretty much.
00:30:24
Speaker
But yeah, there were always parts of me that were very autistic when I was a kid, you know, in terms of sort of spinning around in the spot and all that. I love doing that. In terms of the actual point at which I started to work on my social skills, it was very much me sort of sat in my bedroom watching videos on sort of charisma and body language and
00:30:51
Speaker
facial expressions and writing about it and trying to make, sort of make sure that I action those in the world and see what happens. Sort of like a trial and error process. And when something went wrong or I felt a bit uneasy about a situation, then I would go back to the drawing board, write about the experience and try and sort of dissect what went wrong. It was a very labor intensive process. It was
00:31:20
Speaker
I think after about a year of doing that, I think I was at the point where I had enough confidence to go out and make friendships. And that was sort of during Thailand. And that environment in Thailand was very social heavy. We're living in the same house. We're the only British residents for miles.
00:31:48
Speaker
It was interesting, it was quite intense at points because I was so used to being on my own but after a while I felt a lot more comfortable. I think I'd learnt a lot more about myself after being in that social arena. Obviously there are things that I had to iron out and
00:32:11
Speaker
I still think that I've got some things to work on, but in general, as you've said, I feel like I can develop relationships and friendships to a good enough degree now that it wouldn't be much of a problem for me. Yeah. Would you say that in your progression, which was the more important factor? Was it learning about other people or learning about yourself?
00:32:41
Speaker
I think that they're both important. I think the crossover between myself and other people was where the useful stuff came. It was more of like, okay, all right, let me look at mine, my perspective. These are the things that could be wrong. These are the things that could be right and I want to keep in myself.
00:33:02
Speaker
and then analyse people's reactions and make sure that I've got enough data to go by so that I know that what I'm doing is wrong or right and then blending it in and trying to find a middle ground between those pieces.
00:33:21
Speaker
It is a very difficult thing. I think nowadays I'm more into the realm of trying to figure out what my values and important opinions are so that I can construct myself the way that I want to. It's like I sort of built myself a new person and then jumped into it. Okay, you're like an Iron Man suit. Yeah, a social Iron Man suit. That's what it was for me.
00:33:49
Speaker
And I did feel a bit awkward and a bit weird for a while, jumping into that suit. But now there's something that I said that is something I heard was like, fake it till you make it. And that's basically what I did. But I think I think it's always important to just the real sort of masters in fitting in and
00:34:14
Speaker
doing it naturally, or at least convincingly, are girls. Girls are a lot better to copy facial expressions and things like that, so it's a bit weird because from a guy's perspective it's usually
00:34:32
Speaker
is generally quite quiet, quite confident and direct and very mission orientated. With girls, it's more of they go through secondary school and the school system and at work feeling not themselves.
00:34:52
Speaker
sort of constructing this personality that isn't themselves. Yeah. And that can be quite uncomfortable for them. So there are some differences between the genders that I've found. One thing, particularly with a university, the first thing that I learnt with regards to, because with Freshers Week, what would you say was your experience with Freshers Week?
Learning Social Cues from Friends
00:35:15
Speaker
Because for me,
00:35:16
Speaker
I didn't like the idea of going out every single night and running around with people that I didn't know not having a conversation with anyone because you always always went to clubs and ladies were actually the best people to learn from because a they dance way better than guys and b they always um moving groups um they always make sure someone's going to lift home yeah stuff like that like so how would you find
00:35:45
Speaker
Was your freshers week experience with women being the sensei's? Yeah, most of my friends up until that point, or at least most of my good friends were female. So I definitely found myself going to the clubs and stuff with
00:36:07
Speaker
other females. It wasn't like a thing where I wanted to go out on the game or anything like that. It was just I wanted to go out and dance. And I felt most comfortable around girls, I think. Because I do get what you mean. They do tend to be more group orientated, whereas with guys, they can just disappear.
00:36:31
Speaker
A guy will happily get himself home from a club and he'll also happily jump head first into a group of women. That was one thing that definitely turned me off, the idea of being one of those guys that goes clubbing like that. It just seemed a tad mindless.
00:36:52
Speaker
It just, I don't know, it just, it never got me as something that I wanted to do. I wasn't big into the sort of, you know, make a show kind of thing. And then like, it was more, I want to go out and have a good experience with people that I like, and hopefully build connections with them. That was my sort of mentality during those times.
00:37:18
Speaker
Yeah, obviously. Sorry, sorry. Yes, that's probably like the way like we spent the majority of fourth year being social butterflies in a very new group. But the way we were partying, it wasn't clubs. Usually it was music events. It was house parties. It was environments where you can actually talk to people. Yeah, I found that to be
00:37:44
Speaker
more enjoyable. I don't like that sort of awkwardness where you want to talk to somebody and sort of get to know them but you can't because the music's too loud and there's too many people around and you know it's difficult one isn't it? That's what actually confuses me about clubbing and whenever people go to clubs to pull
00:38:06
Speaker
It's like, how do you do that? You can barely get a word in. Whenever I do go to a club, I'll go in, I'll dance, and then I'll usually spend a fair bit of time either in the smoking area or the bar so that I can get some personal space and some breathing area.
00:38:29
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I feel the same. I think that there was a key moment where we went to this sort of house party and we weren't expecting it to be so absolutely packed and crazy. So I think I went up to you and said, Adam, are you all right? Because I want to go sign in the kitchen. You were like, yep, let's go to the kitchen. That sounds like something we would do if they...
00:38:56
Speaker
Yeah, I think we both wanted a little bit of break from all the shoulder barging and pushing and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, that's one of the things that really turns me off about clubs is even if you are in a nice circle with people that you like and there's a song that you enjoy, there's always either some drunk guy barging past you because he's posting you to go to the toilet.
00:39:19
Speaker
or a bouncer hovering or someone trying to sell you a shot for a fibre. It's not a very... I didn't find a lot of utility in going out, I think it's just...
00:39:34
Speaker
I like to go places where I like the music, but I'd only go there to dance and have the music. Like it was, it's not really a sort of, I wouldn't go there with people that I wanted to get to know better. Yeah. It would be with people that I already knew very well in order for me to sort of feel comfortable with going out to it. Cause it's a different social environment, isn't it? Yeah. The rules that apply in sort of like the party atmosphere are completely different to
00:40:04
Speaker
sort of a one-on-one conversation or three people or, you know, going up to, you know, you know, people chilling on like the grass or something. Like, it's very different. And I think a lot of autistic people find social situations quite sort of terrifying, especially if they haven't been in those situations before.
00:40:27
Speaker
because there isn't sort of a standard social rule for every situation and that's what's difficult to sort of work out. I think a lot of the growing aspects for me were getting good in a certain social environment like a sports club, transferring it to a different one like a house party or a chat over a coffee.
Building Friendships through Shared Interests
00:40:50
Speaker
The whole social arena is completely different in that respect.
00:40:56
Speaker
And we do have a big problem with isolation and loneliness in the autistic community. It's something that I've seen a lot on the YouTube channel, a lot of people messaging and telling me that they just really don't know where to start. So what do you recommend to those people? What do you think they should start doing to improving their social skills? For a start, this is advice that I would give to autistic people or non-autistic people.
00:41:25
Speaker
Is when you're making friends on the small scale it should be based on something you enjoy as you said with like hanging out with someone one on one over a coffee in a park in the sun.
00:41:41
Speaker
You only enjoy those kinds of things when it's with a person that you really, really like. And most people with that kind of relationship tend to have common interests, such as you and me, we would happily talk for hours and hours. I mean, that's the whole point of this podcast.
00:42:00
Speaker
But you and I have plenty of common interests, such as mental health, such as science, such as music, martial arts. And I'd say my advice for an autistic person that's looking to branch out and develop their social skills is
00:42:20
Speaker
Firstly, figure out what you're interested in. If you're interested in music, art, books, film, whatever it is. And then find an environment where you can meet a person that shares one of those interests. And then I'd say work at it friendship by friendship. And then a few years down the line, you'll be at house parties, be in the life of the environment.
00:42:46
Speaker
Hmm. I think that that's always a good place to start somewhere that the, where the, the topic of, of conversation is common. So I found that sports clubs and stuff are the best for me because it gives me a chance to, you know, you've got sort of a set sheet of things that you can ask, you know, it's, it's a lot less, um, sort of out in the open. It's not like you're walking up to someone and just saying hi and trying to start a conversation. It's.
00:43:15
Speaker
they're there to do something that they're interested in and you also find that interesting. Yeah, so say hypothetically you were at a Taekwondo training session and an autistic person, say, was in their first few sessions, it's a lot smoother of
00:43:35
Speaker
a way to initiate a conversation. To say, teach them how to hold their form correctly or how to pivot their hips when throwing a kick or something like that. It's a lot more natural to start a conversation that way than, say, going into an environment that you don't know with people that you don't know with no common interest. Because that is when the task of meeting new people and improving social skills seems like such a daunting task, especially when you're at the beginning of your progression.
00:44:03
Speaker
Yeah. I think one thing that is quite important that I suppose one thing that I struggled with is graded intimacy.
00:44:14
Speaker
So I found that the best way to sort of get into a place where you can make friends is by sort of making those initial sort of boring questions around who they are and what they do and stuff like that. But also just throwing comments out there, just making sure that
00:44:37
Speaker
people know that you're there rather than just going full front and saying, hey, do you want to be friends? Do you want to come to this and this and this and this? Yeah. I think you've got to always err on the side of placing relaxation at the most important thing and failing
00:45:01
Speaker
being able to talk to people just focus on what you're there to do and if an opportunity arises that you can have a little bit of a conversation with someone then take that opportunity and then leave it a little bit and then take it again and chat to people and you can get to know people and then as you said at some point you'll get invitations to do stuff and I think that and
00:45:25
Speaker
just learning to chill out and relax and not putting too many expectations on yourself for the first instant is important.
Self-Acceptance in Social Skill Development
00:45:34
Speaker
I think one of the things that would help with that is what you said earlier about learning who you are and understanding yourself because one thing that takes the pressure off of making friends is being completely happy with yourself.
00:45:50
Speaker
Because one thing that plenty of autistic's have is enjoying time by themselves. I think many of us would happily kill a whole day doing just one task. I think the last weekend I had is just spend the whole day in the sun reading a book. So I think,
00:46:10
Speaker
Being happy with yourself and knowing who you are is a good grounding point to not be let down if someone doesn't reciprocate your friendship. Yeah, I think definitely there is a lot of feelings of let down and rejection, I guess, with autistic people first trying to make attempts to make friends and all of that.
00:46:36
Speaker
I think, yeah, definitely erring on the side of taking it slow. And if you have a bad conversation with someone and you don't really feel like they get you or anything, then go talk to someone else or go put yourself in a space where there are other people other than that person and see if you have any connection with those. I think also, I think there's a good starting point if you really
00:47:06
Speaker
if they're really struggling is to try and find some groups that are made and run by autistic people.
00:47:15
Speaker
That is a good commonality between people. It's easy to talk about experiences with autism because it's obviously so ingrained in you and it's something that not everybody has and it's a very minority of people. So having some other people to support you in your journey of improving your social skills is quite important I think.
00:47:40
Speaker
Okay, because I have never been to any autistic gatherings as an adult. Have you encountered that and felt that it was really beneficial for you? I've never really gone to any of those groups. It's always been Taekwondo classes that really sort of introduced me to socialising with people. Okay.
00:48:03
Speaker
But I think that if I did have that opportunity to have a community of people around me that were autistic or at least like a small group, it would help a lot with those times where you just feel a little bit like an alien and you're not really sure what to do and feel sad and a bit lonely. I think now that I have
00:48:28
Speaker
sort of networked on social media sites and got in contact with other autistic people. It makes things a little bit easier because I've always got someone to go to who understands me completely or at least understands me to a large degree. And I think I would have liked that if there was one at university at the time. Yeah, because going to a support group, that's one of those things that would have never naturally occurred to me.
00:48:56
Speaker
Being a headstrong individual I always have the idea of figuring it out myself but I'm glad that you mentioned that because I would have happily just forgotten to mention that support groups exist.
00:49:08
Speaker
I think it's never a bad shout to go along to them. You have to realise that there will be people there who also don't have very good social skills. So you have to think of it in a test in the waters kind of thing. It's just like any other social arena. It's just that you've got something that you can really talk about and obviously within support groups you have a chance to
00:49:32
Speaker
introduce yourself and I think that sort of structure to it can be quite helpful.
00:49:39
Speaker
reading about social skills and sort of researching it have been quite beneficial for me and especially writing about my experiences with myself and people. And I guess there is to some extent a line where I've learnt as much as I feel like I need to move on to the next stage. And then I sort of have to action it in the world and sort of test the waters, I guess.
00:50:07
Speaker
which I suppose is a little bit different to your approach where you've sort of had that support when you were a little bit younger and then your way of improving your social skills was sort of going out there and just putting yourself in there.
00:50:21
Speaker
Both of them have a lot of holding. I think both of those ways of going about improving your social skills are important and they can always work for people, but everyone's an individual, you know?
Bartending: A Social Skills Bootcamp
00:50:35
Speaker
Oh yeah, everyone will figure out their own way of developing their social skills. You just have to work on it and believe that it will happen.
00:50:45
Speaker
So one thing that really helped me solidify my social skills as an adult, I would by no means recommend this as advice. But being a bartender is, has been one of the things that has really solidified my social skills. Because with bars, you have people come up, order a drink, it's a very short interaction, and you'll cycle through several, several people. And
00:51:13
Speaker
There are plenty of bartenders that have their joke that they use whenever a new customer comes up to the bar. Obviously, being a bartender is a job that is very socially demanding. I would not recommend this for anyone that isn't already most of the way there to their social progression. Even if you're... Say you're in a bar, watching how other people act in bars is very educational.
00:51:42
Speaker
So watching the nature documentary. Oh, yeah. Because alcohol being a substance that reduces inhibition, you get to see how people will act under true freedom. Yes. Yeah. So it's easy. I actually enjoy talking to drunk people. I think they're a lot easier to talk to. Do you think that's maybe part of why you and I started going to parties as we described when alcohol was something that could be brought into the mix legally?
00:52:10
Speaker
To some extent, yeah, I think nowadays, now that I'm a bit older, I err on the side of caution with that. I try to go to places and not drink because it's good to have the experience of interacting in sort of a normal setting. I think parties are sort of a natural progression to things. I think if people feel comfortable with the environment or
00:52:40
Speaker
the people around you. Just having one of those two stable sources is quite an important thing. Going to a house that you know or having a house party yourself, maybe don't do that.
00:52:57
Speaker
Even if I'm going out somewhere like a pub or something, if I don't know the pub, it's nice to know someone that's going with me and vice versa. If I know the pub, I'd be more likely to feel more comfortable with talking to new people. I think you might have mentioned that a little bit back. You said that finding that source of stability is quite important to work from, work out from it.
00:53:26
Speaker
Yeah, something familiar to keep you grounded. I think that's a very important point. It's definitely something that can help you if you do find yourself with a lot of social anxiety or general anxiety. It can be quite a difficult thing. New stuff, I suppose, new situations. But you need to be exposed to it in order for you to learn.
00:53:51
Speaker
So what parts of social skills do you think will never improve? What can't you work on and what can you work on? What can't I work on? My natural inclination is just to respond with I can work on anything.
00:54:10
Speaker
I would say one of the areas that I have tried to work on but haven't really made lots and lots of progress with is I'm a little bit stubborn and I'm a little bit impulsive, which basically means I'm the kind of person that will wake up one day and go, I'm going to spend four hours making a meal and then just go do it because I've woken up with that idea.
00:54:38
Speaker
I'll then want to carry it through because why shouldn't I? Yeah, I think being spontaneous and a little bit headstrong, there are two aspects that I tend to not work on because to an extent, they've actually benefited me in some areas of life.
00:55:00
Speaker
with being a bit stubborn, the difference between stubborn and determined is essentially just the difference between the environment that you're in. If you've got an idea in your head and no one else agrees, you're stubborn. If you push through with it and everyone likes it, you're determined.
00:55:19
Speaker
Yeah. And the spontaneous, like the impulsive side of my mind, the spontaneity, it's really helpful for my creative outlets such as science bartending, martial arts. The impulsive nature of my mind has produced a lot more good than it has bad. But I'd say those are the two areas that I don't think I'll make a lot of progress on in the next five years.
00:55:49
Speaker
Yeah. In terms of things that I don't think I can work on, I think there are a few things that sort of float around in my head. I can never naturally put myself in someone's shoes. So it's always got to be, if someone tells me something that's important, someone that's close to me, I can't always respond to that with,
00:56:15
Speaker
I can't easily deal with that situation on the spot. It's more of a thing that I have to go away from the situation, think about it, and then come back in and then tell them my views. So it's always been a reflective period. I don't think I'm ever going to remove that reflective period. And I guess, yeah, I'm sort of competing in Ticondo and stuff.
00:56:40
Speaker
I guess I would say that I'm a little bit headstrong in general but you know it always it always falls upon you to analyze and pick up on things that that just have no chance of changing or at least a very very slim chance of changing in order for you to like know what you need to do if that makes sense or just around it yeah
00:57:04
Speaker
Also, with these being fundamental aspects of our personalities, to an extent, they're not the kind of things that you want to change because that would be changing entirely who you are. And whilst we want to progress, you don't want
00:57:17
Speaker
I think you do need to stay true to yourself, whether that's an idea in your head of what you want to be or what people are not considered to be sort of like your natural personality. I think the thing that I struggle the most with, I think that's never going to change, is that period of time where you don't spend a lot of time socializing,
00:57:44
Speaker
And then coming back into the social arena, I think it's always a bit of a shock to the system for me. It's not something that I can just easily slip into, it's something that I have to work myself up with. I guess you could call it sort of exposure. If you don't have enough exposure to the social environment for a while, it's gonna
00:58:05
Speaker
wean a little bit when you get back in. Yeah, it's almost like returning to the gym for the first time in a while. Yeah, exactly. You've got to flex those social muscles and you've also got to get an idea of which people in that environment are people that you want to talk to more or interact with more.
00:58:24
Speaker
I think also that there are the general things like you can't really control the level of anxiety that you feel in situations. It's more you've got a good feel for how anxious you may be for the first an hour or two with me going into a social environment. My anxiety is probably at its highest, but then after a while you start to feel a bit more comfortable in the atmosphere.
00:58:49
Speaker
But then again, that's another way of looking at it, another way of adapting around things that you can't really control. And also eye contact. You can work on your eye contact, but it's always going to be as uncomfortable.
00:59:09
Speaker
I think that progression is with eye contact, particularly with job interviews. For my university interview, my body language was actually noted as one of my good points and I was actually surprised at that. You've got very good body language. I think the take home message from
00:59:29
Speaker
uh the progression with things like fake it till you make it and if you don't use it you lose it it's more thick these things will appear forced
00:59:41
Speaker
at the start, and you just got to do them until they become second nature. Because eye contact was something that I really, really tried focusing on. And after eight weeks of lockdown where the only person that I had to look at was my own girlfriend, looking someone in the eyes is actually something that I've had to retrain myself since I've started my new job.
01:00:02
Speaker
exposure in it. It's getting used to the uncomfortabilities that come with being artistic, I
Masking in Autism and Social Interactions
01:00:10
Speaker
guess. And I think it is always, there's a lot of sort of media related things and things going around in the autistic community about this thing called masking, which is basically as it's described as sort of putting on a personality for people, putting on sort of a mask. To be honest, I think
01:00:32
Speaker
Of course, if you've been doing that all your life with people that you're close to, then that's going to impact your mental health a lot because you're not going to feel like the person that your friends like is actually you. I think you can always go back to your roots. The first time that I meet someone, yeah, I probably put on a lot of body language and facial expressions and use a lot of the things that I've learned. But after a while,
01:01:02
Speaker
getting to know them and they've built a connection with me, then I start to be more comfortable and show them a bit more of my personality. I think there's a line between using it as a life philosophy for every single situation ever and using it wisely for things like job interviews and stuff. Yeah, please use responsibly.
01:01:28
Speaker
Masking is definitely not something exclusive to Autistics. I mean, the aspect of putting on a front, that is something that you see throughout society. I mean, especially with with my bartending job, I was bartending in Selfridges in the traffic center in the middle of handbag central. And the number like the people that I was working around were like handbag salesman for Louis Vuitton.
01:01:57
Speaker
menswear, salesman fur, all saying stuff like that. These people's jobs is putting on a mask and trying to sell people high-end merchandise. When it comes to a first date in the dating community, I've never seen a first date where someone was 100% honest on the first date.
01:02:20
Speaker
There's levels of intimacy, and I think just as conversation gets more intimate, not in that way of course, but then things change.
01:02:35
Speaker
I thought that, you know, like you at some point, that telling people that I was autistic and showing people my oddities would be something that they wouldn't want to deal with or something that they think was repulsive about me. But, you know, as you get older, as you start to enter the world of adults, you'll find, of course you'll find assholes, like...
01:02:57
Speaker
They're everywhere, but you'll also find people that you can connect with and the right people will stick by you despite, you know, the sort of differences that you may exhibit. And it's, to be honest, I think it adds to people's charm as well. Like the world can be a boring place. Having a bit of differences is keen. It's good, but brilliant. I think I've got through pretty much all of the questions that I wanted to get through.
01:03:26
Speaker
which is very good. Would you like to give us three main points or three main things that you want people to take away from the podcast? Yeah, I think the first one would definitely be as you and I are examples of, being autistic is absolutely no limitation on what you can do in this world. It does not prevent you from doing anything that you put your mind to.
01:03:53
Speaker
Number two would be, obviously with what we've talked about with say, going to social gatherings, making friends, my second takeaway would be always remember to enjoy yourself. Because if that's not there, then you'll just be making, so say if you make friends and you don't enjoy hanging around any of them, you've essentially just wasted your time and effort. So always remember to enjoy yourself.
01:04:22
Speaker
Let's see, take home point number three is probably with the advice that we've generally covered is when it comes to making friends, focus on what you enjoy about hanging out together and then form the friendship from there.
01:04:45
Speaker
Brilliant. Thank you very much for those. And we've got a last little question for you, which is a very open question and you can answer in any way that you wish. What does autism mean to you, Adam? What does autism mean to me? Autism to me represents a challenge that I've faced in my younger years. It's something that I was born with.
01:05:13
Speaker
And something that I've spent a lot of effort trying to get past. And so, autism for me represents the ability to do anything that I set my mind to. Because, you know, by all intents and purposes, I was born autistic. I shouldn't be as social as I am. And the fact that I made that progression, it means that I overcame that challenge.
01:05:42
Speaker
Yes. I think that your response to that is very, very different to a lot of people's response to that. Yeah. What were the other responses? A lot of it's about sort of being different and all that kind of stuff. But I suppose you've taken more of the angle of pulling up the deficits of it, which I think it is important to highlight that it does make things difficult.
01:06:11
Speaker
I think, in my view, there are a lot of positives to it. I think there are a lot of good things about being autistic. The high IQ really is nice. It's average or above average, so it's slightly increased, but I think it does make us more analytical and logical, which I think is always a benefit.
01:06:35
Speaker
with these mindless people around these days. It's helpful if it's within the parameters that we're comfortable with. Definitely. Cool. Very good. We've finished all of the questions. Would you like to give out any links that you want to share or any social stuff? Completely up to you. You don't have to if you don't want to.
01:07:00
Speaker
To be honest, I'm not a very social media guy. I have Facebook because I have to. And to be honest, being a bartender with no Instagram account, it's probably hurt my career more than anything. But I do not have any links to give out. My only thing to say to the public to listen to this is, stay home, wash your hands, social isolate, social distance, sorry.
COVID-19 Safety Reminder with a Twist
01:07:30
Speaker
do exactly the opposite of what we've been telling you this whole podcast. For the time being, take none of our advice and stay home away from everyone.
01:07:45
Speaker
Matt's coming from someone who is working on the front lines to improve the lives of people around the world in this, not around the world in the UK, in this crisis. And thank you very much, Adam, for providing us with these testing kits. And I think what you're doing is really great. Doing the Lord's work that doesn't exist.
01:08:12
Speaker
If anybody has any questions for you or they want to ask you anything, would they be alright in contacting me and I can send you them over? Would that be good? Yeah, sure. You can hand out my email address if you want. Well, can I hand out your email address if you want? Or I can hand out mine and then send you them if you don't want to give it out publicly.
01:08:36
Speaker
Oh, yeah, good point, sorry. Yeah, contacting you first would be a good idea. Yes, cool. You can contact me at aspergisgrowth at gmail.com. You can send any messages that you have for Adam over there, any questions. And if you want to be on a 40-40 podcast,
01:08:58
Speaker
If you want to be on the 4080 podcast, you can always contact me on either my email or my social medias. They're all at Asperger's Grove and very easy to find. So if you got any questions, if you want to be on the podcast, just send me a message over and I'll try and get back to you as soon as possible.
01:09:15
Speaker
You can find other parts of my work on various different sites, of course the social medias, but primarily the YouTube channel, Asperger's Growth, which I make videos on autism and mental health.
01:09:30
Speaker
pretty much more of a concise and one-way version of this podcast, I guess. I think there's a lot of interesting videos on building social skills that would be very useful if you're trying to build up your social skills and stuff, because I know it can be quite difficult.
01:09:48
Speaker
See, I go over there if you want to check it out. And of course, big thing that will come here to sort of rep and stuff, the documentary Aspergers in Society. You can view it on YouTube or you can visit the web page. I believe it's aspergersinsociety.com. Very easy to find. So I would be much appreciated if you came on, had a little watch, watched Adam's interviews, of course.
01:10:15
Speaker
Thank you very much for coming onto the podcast today, I really appreciate it. Have you enjoyed your... It's been a pleasure. You've enjoyed it, I'm very glad. Yes, but it's honestly like it's been a podcast recording but it's actually been quite a nice catch up. Of course, yeah. It's always nice to have a little bit of social communication in these dark times. There's another little link in there.
01:10:39
Speaker
Stay safe everybody, as I said, as Adam said actually, wash your hands, keep socially distancing, don't go out and do any crazy stupid stuff and infect more people, even if you think you're alright. Here's a definite parting word, if you're wearing a mask, put it over your nose. Have a good day, and I'll see you in the next episode of the 4080 podcast. See you later! Bye!
01:11:06
Speaker
Wow, you're the first person to actually say bye after I said bye. Thank you very much for that. No one decided they wanted to. Everyone was like, I'll just fade into the background. Yes. Problem is, I don't know when to stop. I don't know how to stop these recordings. Let's stop it now. See you later, guys. Bye.